Before I hit the sack, I'll relegate a story of the Scandinavian "Welfare" states.

I myself, Am a Dane, so I have a slight delusion that I actually know something about the conditions "over there". ;)

The scandinavian countries (and to some extent the entirety of the EU), is prided on it's welfare model - i.e. how childcare and hospital stays are free and how the redistribution of earnings secures a just and humane system etc.

We'll here we go - lets start out with the tax system:

First, one Danish "Krone" (our currency unit) equals about 1/6 of a US$ (atm). Taxes are calculated on a yearly base.

First there's the "Gross tax": 9 % of all income.

Then it gets complicated - the wonderful rule system dictates that you dont pay taxes of money already Goss taxated, so that means only 91% of your income is taxated as follows (multiply percentages by .91 ):

Excemption limit: 35.600 kr - no regular tax paid below this limit.

Bottom tax bracket: 5,5 %

"State" tax (we call them "Amts", dont know a better translation): ~10%

Country tax: ~20%

Middle tax bracket: 6 % of all income over 198.000 kr

Top tax bracket: 15 % of all income over 295.300 kr


Thats the DIRECT taxation.

Then comes the "CONSUMPTION" taxation - aka VAT (or MOMS as we call it):

25% of any goods purchased. That means if I buy a computer for say, 20000 kr, 4000 kr of what i paid is MOMS, which equals 20% of the final value.

If you plan on buying a car, you are taxed by between 105 % (lowest range for small, eco-friendly cars) to 180% (no typo, this is for cars liek Mercedes etc). And that EXCLUDES the MOMS - yes, you pay 25% on top of these taxes.

If you own private property, you pay land and property taxes to both state and county, based on the value of your property.

***

The same thing illustrated (with a small error, but the overall thing is roughly the same: http://haxor.dk/artikler/skat.jpg ).

You end up with a marginal tax just shy of 50% (excluding MOMS) if your a middle income earner. With moms, you go above 50% marginal tax.

If you're a high income earner, you pay roughly 65% in income tax, with MOMS that increases to ~70%.

If you buy a car, it crals up to ~80%.

If you own a house, it slowly approaches 85%. (NB: You cant get a decent house for anything less than 2 million DKr. You can get a louse condo for 500 grand, tho).

-

Now, what do you get for what you pay thru your taxes?

* Mediocre healthcare system - general practionioners work fairly well, but hospitals are worfully inefficient, with numerous cases of malpractice, erroneous medication, long waits for surgery and treatments. The latest gov't which have been in action for about... 18 months, have promised a revitalization of the hospital system, but by the looks of it, I'll grow old before it truly gets any better.

* Poor public transport. The unions and left-wing politiciens have no interest in seeing private transport companies success where state owned firms have failed, so they have done theirs to sabotage privately run public transport. Arriva (from UK) runs some buses and trains here in DK, but there have been many "mishaps"... - andyway, generally, the public transport is nice, but not on time, and you better have a forgiving boss if you plan on using it to get to and from work.

* Poor roads. Many roads are in mediocre condition, despite the fact that private punters put tens of billions of Kr in the state coffers every year. besides, our parkin fine system is INSANE - 510 fr for a fine, and there's essentially no way to complain. It's like the fine system is run by the mafia ;p

* poor elderly care - often, reports crop up, about snr. citicen homes, where old people recieve no personal hygine for a week or more - or where care personell are on a schedule so tight that they only have 7 minutes for cleaning old people's homes and be "social" with the people they should take care of.

* childcare - we're supposedly got a childcare guarantee here (see, when politicians cannot provide what they should, they issue GUARANTEES instead) - but most kindergartens and creches (right word?) are overburdened, and waiting lists are often encountered.

Last but not least, STUPID politicians.

i actually like the way out political system is set up - we have a Parliament ("Folketing"), consisting of 179 electees, the majority of which for the Executive Branch ("Regeringen") - we often joke about "counting to 90" - thats what it takes to get a majority of votes in the parliament.

Unfortunately, most of our politicians have the integrity of a fat buerocrat, trhat means very little. That rarely stand by their words, they lie to the public, and order their public employees in the ministries to make heavily biased reports which strengthen their own causes on the cost of truthfulness.

It was worse between 1993-2001 (when we had the socialist "Social democrats" in power), but the new gov't is not that much better, despite claim to the contrary.

*

Sweden is not much better, their car taxes are much lower, though.

Norway supposedly has a upper limit to taxation (direct) og 50%, but according to a friend of my working in Oslo, their puclic spending is completely out of check due to all the free $$$$$$ they get from their rich oil reserves.

*

To sum up: In Scandinavia, you work your ass off, working extra hard hardly pays off, your tax money goes to a mediocre system, run by demagouges and imbeciles that can ALWAYS find stupid ways to use your hard earned cash.

Gotta love it!




(note: that last line was ironic).

You just did a pretty good job of describing Ireland as well. (Well, except that the rich get to use offshore accounts and tax loopholes to pay a lot less tax than us working stiffs).

I'd prefer to live in Switzerland myself, but I don't speak swiss-german, german, and my french would get me arrested by the language police, so I've no plans to move just yet.

Mind you, despite all that, I'll pick living here rather than the states anyday. At least here the cops won't shoot me and I can protest the government without the aid of "free speech zones"...

Every country has its pros and cons.

But as Kin Hubbard put it, "It ain't a crime to be poor, but it might as well be."

If you don't have private medical insurance here in the states, and you get seriously ill, life on the street is often the result.

I had to use the state emergency medical insurance 8 years ago because of a serious bout with Grave's Disease. I was "lucky" to not have any property of value, because if I did, I would have had to sell it.
Too sick to work, the Disability Insurance payments that I was eligible for were so low, if I had not been able to get several hundred dollars from my mother, I would have been on the street.

When was the last time you saw something about an amateur fundraising event to pay for a little girls medical expenses in any of those countries? They are quite common here.

And that, ladies and gentlement, identifies quite nicely why I support the right side of the political spectrum -- and why you should too. :)

xelius - you want to promote right-wing economic policies by advocating the elimination of health care for all but those that can afford to pay thousands of dollars for it?
Hmmm.
:bugeye:

What it illustrates is hte problems that buuild up when you dont have btter democracy, not htat the "right" side of htings ever sorts it out, it tends merely to reaportion things to the rich.

...is how easy it is to blame the "rich".

As we say here in Denmark, it doesnt matter if you punish or give to the millionaires, because there are so few of them.

Anyway, I acknowledge that there are some severe inequality issues in the USA, but as my point have been in discussions before - bringing up the scandinavian "welfare" model as a solution is a bad idea.

Sure, we do not have the same poverty problems as in the US, but we're in the opposite ditch: For the majority of the population, it does not pay off to work, becausethe taxes are to high, and ambition and entrepreneurism is punished by even higher taxes. It's horrible!

If I were to offer a solution for the US economy, it would be this:

Focus on:

1) Paying off state debt.
2) Better conditions for the poor.

First of all, I would use Friedman's Negative Income Tax model. Dont be fooled by the name, tho ;)

The forte of this system is that is is absurdly easy to administrate. You define two parametres: Tax percentage and the lower exemption limit. And is works like this:
Assume a 33% tax rate.
If you earn exactly the excemption limit, you do not pay taxes (lets say $1000 per month or 12000 per year).

If you earn 2000$/month you pay:
2000 - 1000 = 1000 * 33% = 333 $ / month

If you earn 5000$/month you pay:
5000 - 1000 = 4000 * 33% = 1333 $ / month

If you earn 10000$/month you pay:
10000 - 1000 = 9000 * 33% = 3000 $ / month

If you earn diddley squat $/month you pay:
0 - 1000 = -1000 * 33% = -333 $ / month

...the last one means that you RECIEVE 333$/month from the IRS (or whatever govt agency).

-

Another measure that would be necessary, would be to increase company taxation. In this era of corporate giants and monopolies, I propose a 25% company tax, and a 10000$/year exemption limit. That should bolster the stste coffers while favoring the small businesses that tend to be crushed under the powers of giants and monopolies.

---

of course, we also need TRUTHFUL POLITICIANS. While developlments as of late have dictated and increase in US military spending, I find it problematic that mil spending has increased while welfare spending has decreased (at least under GWB Jnr).

In short the keywords here are:

- VERY simple taxes
- tax companies, no not punish individuals for their work
- eliminate US state debt

-

Thanks for your attention.

DJSupreme23, much of what you say is in the eye of the beholder

There will always be horror stories about elderly health care because some people are ass's or arses and buttholes.
And the state imo could give more back to the people that has work and payed taxed for so many years.

i think our public transportation net is good, but you are right some times a train stalls, shit happens, what annoys me the most is the price of a ticket and the fact that i cannot buy 1 zone ONLY.

the car tax law is some ancient relic from the begin of cars, imo is it a money sink that should be removed, actually there was something in the news sometime ago.

our tax system is insane and way to complicated

edit:
hehe i can do as the US now :)

just kiddin, tag en grøn og ha en god dag og sommer ferie

I think the major problem with government controlled institutions (much of that in socialist scandinavia) is that there's no competition for them. No need to make things more efficient and alot of the money is spent on stuff that might cost half as much or less.

Another thing that happened here in Sweden a while ago was that the real-estate tax was "reformed" and alot of older people had to sell their large old houses because they couldn't afford it on pension. That sucks elephant ****!

I think the major problem with government controlled institutions (much of that in socialist scandinavia) is that there's no competition for them. No need to make things more efficient and alot of the money is spent on stuff that might cost half as much or less.
Yes, Maggie Thatcher thought the same thing and privatised a lot of public services. A decade or two later, and those same public services are now a very bad joke. The simple fact is that some services are necessary for society, but will never turn a profit. (And in fact, some should never be about profit, like health care).

The problem is soo0000 absurdly obvious. We're either supporting the lefties or the righties. And it's considered a shameful thing to support ideologies from both sides.

It sucks in the US because they're too far right. So many people live on the poverty line while a group of fantastically rich only get richer.

It sucks in the EU (time to consider that place a country) because they're too far left. Most of their people live just enough above the poverty line with little reward to the try-hards.

Of course, the best place has always been someplace in the middle. It's the dangerously large ego's of those 'bureaucrats' that constantly hold us back.

the EU (time to consider that place a country)
The EU isn't a country, it's a collection of countries working together for their mutual benefit. Thinking of it as a country is a significant error.

Of course it's not a country (yet). But just as the US is a collection of semi-autonomous states, the EU is getting to be exactly that. If you're a part of the EU right now, you don't exactly a little something called 'sovereignty.'

Thinking of EU states to be countries in themselves is also a significant error.

Elbaz,
The thing is that the level of autonomy within the EU is far, far, far higher than within the US. There is no central management of taxation, though there is central management of macroeconomics. There are EU-wide licences for aviation and driving and so on, but these are all basicly attempts to simplfy regulations within the EU. But there's no common defence policy, there's a *lot* of inter-member debate and in quite a few cases, outright refusal to surrender competencies to the EU. (The UK being a well-known example).

I'm all for low or no tax and letting the people and private charities do the job. I'm sorry, but I will absolutely refuse to pay more than 25% tax. When I get into a higher tax bracket, I'll probably end up in the U.S. or Alberta (which has no sales tax and a low provincial tax rate).

Those that love the high tax and high social benefits system can immigrate to Scandinavia. Have fun over there.

Jerrek, where exactly do you plan on living where you can pay less than 25% tax? The only place I've ever heard of where you can do that is the merchant marine...

"oooh! stud muffin sailor boys" exclaims jerreck excitedly!

Montana? Florida?

You're not very bright. Just because you don't know of a place doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

So in Montana and Florida you can earn as much as you can and only ever pay 25% tax?

Alberta (which has no sales tax and a low provincial tax rate). (jerreck)


Today, Washington almost rivals Oregon in jobless rates, and a large number of the unemployed are those newly arrived middle-income workers.

Most economists agree the recession has had a more damaging effect on Oregon because of the state's tax system. Oregon is one of only five states without a sales tax.Citizen initiatives have put a lid on property levies. So the state has become heavily dependent on personal income tax.

In Oregon, fewer people working translated into significantly less state revenue.

Oregon's Far From the Trail
(http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-oregon27jun27,1,7858932.story?coll=la-home-leftrail)

Originally posted by EI_Sparks
So in Montana and Florida you can earn as much as you can and only ever pay 25% tax? Nope, but you can earn a fair bit before you go over that. Not something I see in my forseeable future, unless you want to tell me I'm so bright that I'll be earning more than $75,000 right out of college. In any case, 25% is my personal preference. While I would be annoyed with 28%, it wouldn't break me. But 40% is downright out of the question.

And spookz, I'm sure the nice socialist source you're quoting would love to tell you that more taxes = more jobs. In any case, I said Alberta, in case you fail to grasp the concept. A L B E R T A. Want me to upload a sound file too? Alberta is the richest province in Canada and is doing better than any other province. They and Ontario are responsible for subsidizing socialist Quebec who can't even produce enough for themselves and needs the other provinces to give her money.

not at all dipshit. its just when govts rely on a sales tax for income, they get screwed when unemployment rises. in oregons case, voters also put a cap on property taxes further compounding the problem.

Alberta is the richest province in Canada and is doing better than any other province. They and Ontario are responsible for subsidizing socialist Quebec who can't even produce enough for themselves and needs the other provinces to give her money.

And here Jerrek is right, Alberta with oil coming out of her....well you know,and her oil sands. With Ontario with our huge manufacturing base which is dependant on American goodwill. But Quebec also has a industrial base, but she does leach. The biggest leachers of them all is the Atlantic provinces. The biggest fear we have is that Alberta may want to seperate from the confederation, due to western alienation. That wouldn't be good for Alberta in the long run, sure they have 5.3% growth rate.But they depend on the feds as much as anyone once those oil prices come tumbling down. They are experiancing soviet syndrome. The oil will prop us up, then poof they collapse. Though I am troubled by the direction Alberta is taking. Liberalizing it seems everything, healthcare.

Jerrek,
Okay, lets see here. We don't have tax deductionions, we have tax credits. Same thing in effect, but the calculations don't look the same. Let's say I'm earning $70,000. That comes to 61,280 euro. The first 28,000 euro are taxed at 20%, and the remainder at 42% (for a single person, no dependent children). That's a total tax take of 19,577.6 euro. Now the tax credits come into play. I get credits of 1,520 to start with (that way people on *really* low incomes don't pay any tax), then another 800 for being on a PAYE scheme (meaning tax is taken from my paycheck before I get it, the norm in Ireland). There's an amount relating to medical insurance, but I'll leave that out as it varys from person to person and insurer to insurer (the idea is that private medical insurance takes pressure off the state for medical bills, so you don't pay tax on that). The basic credit then is 2320 euro, so the total tax paid in a year works out at 17257.6 euro, or 28.16% in total.

Not that much worse is it? And yet I've got all these horrible socialist things like a national free health service (albiet a swamped one - but it's being upgraded at present), I don't pay water charges, garbage collection is taken care of, there's social insurance in case I'm made redundant for any length of time, and a host of other bits and bobs.

What was it you said about 28% again?

Don't confuse the tax margin and the effective tax rate. I was talking tax margin, not effective tax rate. If you want to talk effective tax rate, here are some calculations:

In Montana, on $61,280 you would pay $3,910 + $8,220 = $12,130, or 19.8%.


Now let us take a very nice salary of say $140,000 (or 140,000 euros in your case). Someone that I know makes that much. So, how much tax? In Montana: $14,010 + $19,940 = $33,050. Effective rate is 23.6%.



Not much worse? WAY worse. How much VAT do you pay? More than 4 or 5% I guess?


Europe is taxing its people to death. Did you see the thread about Europeans bitching about the 25% VAT that some U.S. companies want to levy on products shipped to Europe? And this thread...

25% max for me, ideally. I'd prefer a flat 15% tax rate.

The country perfectly designed for the lazy. Any real chance of betterment is taxed out of you and they give you a few of the basics to keep you content. Put a hampster in a cage and give him a wheel.

If I was born there I would either move out or hang myself ASAP.

Do the European countries have a corporate wellfare problem as the USA does??

http://www.socialconscience.com/articles/welfare/

Jerrek,
VAT depends on what you're buying - different rates apply for different things, and on basic things, there's no VAT. The maximum VAT rate is 21%.

As to the idea that you don't have to pay a lot of tax, the way it works is that it takes X amount to pay for running state. N people in the state, thus the average tax has to be X/N.
It's not a case of saying "well, 30% sounds fair, so lets charge that".
Remember, a lot of the stuff you have to pay for, I've already paid for via taxes - and in many cases, paid a lot less for, because everyone is "chipping in" so to speak.

Now me, I'd be asking how it is that my state, far smaller than yours and with far fewer people, charges a comparable amount in tax to yours. I mean, we have about 1.5 million paying tax - you have what, twenty times that? Now some things are going to cost more, but there are bulk-buying advantages, so frankly, given what you have to pay extra for, you shouldn't be paying half the amount of tax you are paying. Or alternatively, you should be getting more services than you do.

Clockwood,
The country perfectly designed for the lazy. Any real chance of betterment is taxed out of you and they give you a few of the basics to keep you content.
Frankly, that's a hot idea. Take all the lazy gits you wouldn't want to have to work with and keep them at home on subsistence? Hell, if I didn't know better, I'd say that was your idea!

If I was born there I would either move out or hang myself ASAP.
Really? I guess you're just wrong then.

tax me to death please. rip my fingernails out. anything is better than living in montana

:D

btw if gas doesnt drop to $1 per gallon soon i'll hang myself too!

Montana it the perfect place to live if you dont like large congregations of other people. Thats ok.

btw if gas doesnt drop to $1 per gallon soon i'll hang myself too!
Not that I think you're serious spookz, but I don't understand why so many americans think of it as $/gallon, as opposed to $/mile.
I mean, I pay around $2.20 or so per gallon, but I get 40-odd miles per gallon with my beat-up ten-year-old car. Modern cars here get 55 to 75 miles per gallon. So in $/mile terms, we pay less than SUV drivers, with equivalent levels of safety (take a look at a ford fiesta and a freelander after an NCAP test sometime - I'll take the fiesta any day of the week).

Oh yeah, and we don't have to go to war every decade or two as a bonus...

Americans are the only people in the world who will, burn $2.50 cents woth of gas to drive to the store and buy a $1.29 jug of bottled water, and then complain about taxes.

Justice, you've only scratched the surface.

Americans will also go to state colleges, with Federal student loans, and get degrees that allow them to get well paying jobs, and then act as though the taxes they are paying are theft.

Their well paying jobs often rely on infrastructure that was built with tax dollars, roads, bridges, the water, the sewers. The workforce they manage went to public schools. The police, and fire departments are all from tax dollars.

All of these things are necessary for corporations to be able to make a profit. But the corporations and the individuals who often benefit from these things the most, are the ones who complain the loudest, and drag their heels when it comes time to pay.

If privitization is such a good idea, hell lets privatize the military! Why do we have this socialized military when we could juust as well hire mercenaries to do the job for less?

justiceusa- yes we do have a big corporate welfare problem here. Many large companies dont pay any tax, or very little. Then the EU is being divvied up between the corporations and the bureacrats, leaving little room for us real people.

Repo man, you just summed it all up.

I agree, as far as privitization of the military I have read that plans are underway to privatize most non combat support positions in the military.

Worse yet, the US, especially the CIA, has for some time been contracting with "private military corporations" to do the really dirty work.

Google "private military corporations" to find the names of a few of them. Vinnell is one of the big ones.

http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol7/v7n06miltrain_body.html

http://www.icij.org/dtaweb/icij_bow.asp?Section=Chapter&ChapNum=2

That is coz USA is a neoliberal-capitalist system while EU is a socialist-democratic system that's why USA is a hell for most people.
Neoliberal economic model is the problem of why the disabled and poor are bad in todays free market economy.
Social-democratic systems are different from neoliberal-democracies. Social-democracy is based on increasing the living standards of the weak and poor so that the whole society can progress. This is not the case with neoliberalism. The core of neoliberal values lie on economical-production, deregulation, capitalisation of public services, privatism which is/was not the basis a socialist democratic system. Neoliberals think that taking money out from investment and production and helping the poor and weak would be an obstacle for the whole economy. I know we cannot have a real socialist system because it's too Utopic. But even within the context of a socialist-democratic-system we can have something different than this neoliberal, hedonist, materialist, egocentric, competition, elitist, consumerist system that neoliberal-democracy is founded on and subdivides the individual into mass production zones (factories, offices, apartment complexes, etc.)
neoliberal-democratic system is based on economical-smithsonian-darwinism. Darwin and Adam Smith claimed that the survival of the strongest economically, the supply and demand through the invisible hand of free-markets, would bring about a total devolepment for the whole society but this neoliberal politics theory is flawed with empirical-evidence (neoliberalism has been a total failure in USA since the 80s and in other neoliberal-democracies like Argentina (former 10th Economy of the world)

Neoliberalism Democracy theory is flawed because it is based solely on genes, individualism, herederity, egoism, materialism physiology and not will or will to power uniting the masses through colaboration harmony and progress. We can see the economical examples of how neoliberalism has literally MESSED UP THE WHOLE WORLD. Look at USA, look at Argentina (former 10th economy of the world, Peru, U.K., Germany, Russia) All those nations are beating the bullets with a high trade defict because of neoliberal-ideology which is based on imports instead of a protectionist DBE (Development based on exports).

nanoboy

Hello all: I got the following article from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 20, Number 4.

The New American Plutocracy

Plutocracy: (1) government by the wealthy, (2) a controlling class of the wealthy. From the Greek ploutokratia, from ploutos, wealth, and kratia, advocate of a form of government.

A plutocracy is defined as "government by the wealthy." The critical question that should concern us is whether the United States is already a plutocracy, and what can be done to limit its power. This question, unfortunately, will not be taken seriously by most voters-but it damned well ought to be.

Ancient Greek democracy lasted only a century; the Roman republic survived for four, though it was increasingly weakened as time went on. As America enters its third century we may well ask whether our democratic institutions will survive and if so in what form.

As readers of these pages know, I have been concerned by the virtually unchallenged growth of corporate power. Mergers and acquisitions continue at a dizzying pace, as small and mid-sized businesses and farms disappear; independent doctors, lawyers, and accountants are gobbled up by larger firms; and working men and women are at the mercy of huge global conglomerates, which downsize as they export jobs overseas.

I have also deplored the emergence of the global media-ocracy, whereby a handful of powerful media conglomerates virtually dominate the means of communication. A functioning democratic society depends upon a free exchange of ideas; today fewer dissenting views are heard in the public square, as diversity is narrowed or muffled.

Most recently the Tribune Company, publisher of the Chicago Tribune and other newspapers and radio and television companies, bought the Times-Mirror, publisher of the Los Angeles Times, etc.; the Gannett chain purchased Central Newspapers, publishers of the Indianapolis Star, the Arizona Republic, and other newspapers. News Corporation (Rupert Murdoch) has announced its intention to take over Chris- Craft's extensive television holdings. And Viacom has offered to buy out the remaining stock it doesn't own in the giant radio network, Infinity Broadcasting. Although Clinton's Justice Department has been attempting to stem the merger juggernaut by questioning a limited number of acquisitions, this may be viewed as mere window dressing, as too little and too late.

This trend toward the concentration of ownership should be of special concern to secular humanists and rationalists. The regnant corporate outlook increasingly espouses a spiritual/religious/supernatural mystique, and it seeks to marginalize iconoclastic viewpoints. Unfortunately for secular humanists, pro ecclesia et commercia (for church and commerce) has become the ideology not only of the Religious Right, but is being marketed daily to consumers in the mainstream.

Corporate Control
Corporate domination of the democratic process by means of campaign contributions blocks the emergence of independent voices willing to defend the public interest. Lobbyists subvert the integrity of the Congress and of state legislatures throughout the land by buying influences and votes. Big oil, media, pharmaceutical, tobacco, gambling, insurance, and financial companies thus dominate the legislative process. For example, the banks and credit card companies charge usurious rates and use deceptive marketing practices, fleecing millions of unwary consumers and forcing them into bankruptcy, yet effective legislation to protect consumers was blocked in Congress by the banking industry. Surreptitiously, large companies are now reducing retirement benefits with nary any political opposition. Corporations today-such as General Electric and Exxon-Mobil-are earning huge profits.

Some may say that my appraisal is too pessimistic, for stock ownership is widely distributed, and that corporate efficiency contributes to the current American prosperity. Granted, we do not wish to undermine our economic prosperity, but much of this is also due to new scientific and technological discoveries and to an educated labor force, not simply corporate oligopolies.

We need to ask the questions: should corporations be the primary arbiters of the public will, and should "market forces" alone determine the conditions of social justice? Unfortunately, a relatively small number of corporate managers and stockholders of the new plutocracy control the corporate state, and it is the incestuous relationship between corporate economic power and politics that is most disturbing. For example, Dick Cheney departed from Haliburton, the large oil exploratory company, according to the New York Times, with a $20 million package of stock options and other benefits. Today a corporate-military plutocracy rules virtually unchallenged, manipulating and manufacturing the news and safeguarding its position of power.

The War on Estate Taxes
The attempt by the outgoing Congress to get rid of estate taxes is only the latest brazen effort to advance the interests of the plutocracy. Unfortunately, there is now a strong majority of the Congress for repeal, and this includes many Democrats-although President Clinton has threatened to veto the measure. Those who rail against estate taxes mislabel them "death taxes." But one can make a persuasive ethical case for estate taxes as fair-and I am arguing only the ethical, not political issue-for they would provide a more level playing field for the disadvantaged and equalize, however modestly, the widening gap between rich and poor. One can argue that it is in the public interest to reduce estate taxes on small businesses and farms in order to protect them from extinction at the hands of larger corporations, but to exempt the huge fortunes of multimillionaires and billionaires is morally unconscionable. Repealing the estate tax would expand the financial wealth of the plutocracy that now rules this country. It would ensure the perpetuation of the existing financial elite with very few limits on its economic and political power. In 1998, the top 1 percent of the population, according to an article in the Wall Street Journal, owns 38.1 percent of the wealth of the country; the top 20 percent-87.4 percent; the rest of the population-80 percent-own only 12.6 percent of the wealth! These disparities are growing. In the past twenty years, the after-tax income of the wealthiest 1 percent of the population increased by 119.7 percent, whereas the bottom 60 percent by only 12 percent.

Hypocritically, the Religious Right supports the elimination of estate taxes. Incredibly, it has sought to enshrine Greed by Divine Sanction: "God rewards the thrifty and virtuous," ideologues assert; "those with wealth deserve to keep it"-even if they made their money in speculation or by inheritance. The Religious Right opposes gun control, is for capital punishment, and is against legislation to extend medical care to the millions who cannot afford it, or prescriptions for the elderly, yet it supports aid to the affluent.

A century ago Teddy Roosevelt helped enact and enforce the Sherman Anti-Trust Law, and later Woodrow Wilson introduced the progressive income tax. Where are the political leaders today, willing to restrain corporate trusts and the new plutocracy? Who will speak out for the ordinary citizen? Who will defend the humanistic principles of equity and fairness?

Piety in the Public Square
Secular humanists are independent-minded persons who will most likely support a variety of candidates in the upcoming elections. They will in their evaluations of platforms no doubt appeal to humanist values. A vital test will be how well candidates support the separation of church and state and the First Amendment.

The recent political conventions-heavily supported by corporate money-at times looked like religious-revival meetings; for most of the major candidates praised the Lord and religious faith repeatedly.

There is a fine line that ought to be drawn between private conscience and public professions of religious belief. Candidates have every right to hold their religious convictions or practice the rituals of their traditions; but is it too much to ask that they restrain proclamations of their personal piety in the public square? Our president and vice president should represent all the people, not simply the Judaic-Christian tradition; and this includes Unitarians, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Scientologists, minifidians, nullifidians, and just plain backsliders. Rationalists, skeptics, atheists, agnostics, and secular humanists are American citizens too!

There is widespread moral diversity in America. To simply assume that faith in the Old or New Testament is the only basis of "morality" is ill-informed. Had the candidates taken an introductory philosophy course at their universities, they would have seen that there is within Western civilization an historic nonreligious and rational humanist basis for morality. Moreover, humanist values are central to American civic virtues-a commitment to human rights, including freedom of conscience, autonomy of choice, the right to dissent-none of which is easily found in the ancient religious documents. Indeed, these documents have been used in the past to justify the divine right of kings, aristocracy, and oligarchy.

Our political leaders should be cautious before they seek to judge public policies by their own religious biases. A cherished aspect of American democracy is respect for diversity. We need to resist any attempts by the reigning plutocrats to impose religious conformity as the test of American patriotism.

nanoboy

First of all, I'd liek nanoboy to stop pasting random socialist propaganda here. It takes up space, and to be frank, we've all heard that drivel before.

I dont know about the gas prices in teh US, but in Denmark they are:

(1$ ? 6,5 DKr)

1 litre unleaded ? 8,25 Kr

The price of a car: 100.000 kr. for a new minicar (say Suzuki Swift), 250.000 for a Honda Accord, at least 400.000 for Mercedes.

Plus we cant get the really environmentally friendly cars (like Honda FCX or Insight :(

For those of you still talking about the evils of the USA - at least it pays off to have a job over there. It hardly does here. I actually called the US embassy during the Iraq thing, to ask for immigration info, trouble is, it's almost impossible to get a US Citizenship without having lived and worked in the US for 5 years. :(

DJ,
Quit bitching so much, where you live is far cheaper than where I live and frankly, I'd rather live here than the US.
You need to do some more analysis.
At least here you don't see the pleasant corporate environment that lead to the Ford Pinto...

Originally posted by EI_Sparks
DJ,
Quit bitching so much, where you live is far cheaper than where I live and frankly, I'd rather live here than the US.
You need to do some more analysis.
At least here you don't see the pleasant corporate environment that lead to the Ford Pinto...

I invite you to come over here and live. The immigration should be no problem. Perhaps it will be a welcome change for the first few years, but when you have endured it for that time, and notice how much of your money go into a unfillable black hole of public spending, I think you will change your mind.

What other analyses do you suggest I do?

And I dont see the relevance of the Pinto hubbub in this debate.

PS: Without bitching, there would never be improvement. Perhaps you like mediocrity?

Bitching is no improvment it to easy, eather do something about it or stop.
what is it in particular you dislike about the "hell hole" called Denmark.

is it the free services, the 5-6 weeks vacation, the tax, the people, the weather.

Originally posted by Kunax
Bitching is no improvment it to easy, eather do something about it or stop.
what is it in particular you dislike about the "hell hole" called Denmark.

Bitching or criticism, leads to questioning what exists. That is the first step in solving problems.

If you read the first post, Kunax, you would have a pretty good idea of what I dislike about Denmark.

i had hoped for something better, your first post just sounds like a rant, althoue the current taxes on cars is beyond stupid.

I could agree with you on the politicians, but then im slightly bias as i seen the trait of politicians, to be the art of stepping up to someone call him your friend, then stab him in the back.

p.s.
kindergarden is german for daycare :)

p.p.s
bithing is just bithing, unless you do something about it, but somethings are impossible to change for the commen man, so all you can do is bitch or move on.

I invite you to come over here and live. The immigration should be no problem. Perhaps it will be a welcome change for the first few years, but when you have endured it for that time, and notice how much of your money go into a unfillable black hole of public spending, I think you will change your mind.
And you think I've not been paying taxes for the last decade, do you? Your taxes are lower, your living costs are lower and your laws are more liberal. Your diet is somewhat better and frankly, so is your standard of living for those who haven't retired yet.
To be honest, I'd consider moving, but for three things:
1) I'm regretably monolinguistic and have never had any skill with languages :(
2) I'm finishing up my PhD and moving is simply not possible right now.
3) If I'm going to move, then I'd choose switzerland.

What other analyses do you suggest I do?
I'd compare the average standard of living and the "safety net" features of where you live against the US. Then I'd compare the general health of economies. The US has a fiscal deficet of $44 trillion, a trade imbalance to the tune of $40 billion per month, a debt ceiling that just got raised by a trillion dollars to $7.34 trillion and an artifically sheltered currency value. And the current administration is rocking the boat as hard as it can. So I wouldn't be considering a move stateside anytime in the foreseeable future. Frankly, I'd be thinking rather carefully about even a visit to friends over there. I rather like my civil rights, y'know.

And I dont see the relevance of the Pinto hubbub in this debate.
It was in reference to the memo where Ford calculated that it cost less to let people get hurt and sue them rather than fix the Pinto's petrol tank problem. You are familiar with this, right? If not, read this for a quick summary (http://www.cs.rice.edu/~vardi/comp601/case2.html).

PS: Without bitching, there would never be improvement. Perhaps you like mediocrity?
Bitching or criticism, leads to questioning what exists. That is the first step in solving problems.
I have absolutely no problem with questioning. None. Nada, zilch, zero, null, nothing.
But that's not what you're doing - you're poking holes in the underlying assumptions of the way society is run over here using the flaws in implementation as an argument - which isn't valid. It's like saying that the Ford Pinto is a valid argument for banning large corporations. It isn't - it's a reason to modify the way they're run.

> And you think I've not been paying taxes for the last decade, do you? Your taxes are lower, your living costs are lower and your laws are more liberal.

--- Laws more liberal, yes, but lower taxes? What are you smoking? If you read my initial post, you would find that Denmark has one of the highest tax rates IN THE WORLD, is sharp competition with Sweden end Belgium.

The Danish taxpressure in % of teh GNP is 50,4%. That of the USA is half that. If i reduced the inflated Danish GNP (due to our parge public sector), our number would likely be 75% og teh GNP.

> Your diet is somewhat better and frankly, so is your standard of living for those who haven't retired yet.

--- Our GNP per capita is higher, yes, but only due to our artificially inflated GNP (see above). Our life expectancy is lower than that of the USA.

> To be honest, I'd consider moving, but for three things:
1) I'm regretably monolinguistic and have never had any skill with languages :(

--- Nobody over here have problems with english.

> 2) I'm finishing up my PhD and moving is simply not possible right now.
> 3) If I'm going to move, then I'd choose switzerland.

--- Not a bad choice.

> I'd compare the average standard of living and the "safety net" features of where you live against the US. Then I'd compare the general health of economies. The US has a fiscal deficet of $44 trillion, a trade imbalance to the tune of $40 billion per month, a debt ceiling that just got raised by a trillion dollars to $7.34 trillion and an artifically sheltered currency value. And the current administration is rocking the boat as hard as it can. So I wouldn't be considering a move stateside anytime in the foreseeable future. Frankly, I'd be thinking rather carefully about even a visit to friends over there. I rather like my civil rights, y'know.

--- I agree that the US state debt is huge, and a sensible political shift is needed to start paying it off, SOON.

How much is the debt per capita?

Anyway, compare to Denmark. Our state debat is also astronomic - not to the scale of the USA, but it will take us debades to pay it off.

And as my post tried to describe - the main provlem is that id DOES NOT PAY TO WORK over here. I believe that only 44% of the work force is emplyed, the rest is on various welfare projects. If you subtract the public workers, the number would perhaps drop på 25% of the work force privately emplyed (read: actually contributing to the national economy).


> It was in reference to the memo where Ford calculated that it cost less to let people get hurt and sue them rather than fix the Pinto's petrol tank problem. You are familiar with this, right? If not, read this for a quick summary (http://www.cs.rice.edu/~vardi/comp601/case2.html).

--- I have heard of the Pinto scandal, yes. But the actions of some corporations does not surprise me. That is one of the reasons I think higher corporate taxes (in the US, they are 30% over here :() would be quite fair.


> I have absolutely no problem with questioning. None. Nada, zilch, zero, null, nothing. But that's not what you're doing - you're poking holes in the underlying assumptions of the way society is run over here using the flaws in implementation as an argument - which isn't valid. It's like saying that the Ford Pinto is a valid argument for banning large corporations. It isn't - it's a reason to modify the way they're run.

--- Sorry, sparks, I still dont believe that the Pinto case has anything to do with national economy.

Corporate ethics and law is anotehr thing, tho.

Nobody over here have problems with english.
No, but I'd feel ridiculous living in a country and not speaking the native language.

How much is the debt per capita?
$44 trillion / 256 million people = approx. 172 thousand dollars each.

Sorry, sparks, I still dont believe that the Pinto case has anything to do with national economy.
I wasn't making a point about national economy, but about living standards.

The sun should be for all, for the people of the sun

USA is a buyocracy (an economic system in which the highest values are in what you "own" and what you "have"), in other words the bigger car/house u have in USA the more you would be accepted in social-circles. This is not the case in socialist-democratic system in which values are based on economic basic needs of the lower classes of society (Capitalists are evil, they don't care about ill or hunger), a regulated economy to provide for *ALL* unlike capitalist countries in which about 20% live the good life, while 80% beat the bullets.
Remember Ayn Rand when she spoke that being selfish is great, and that helping the starving and very ill is bad. Capitalists stimulate killing, euthanasia, and mass-murder of Iraq for example. Ultra-capitalism even turns itself to fascism and or social-darwinism.
Let's not accept ultra-capitalism. Capitalist private property system is still very good but when lazzes-faire capitalist system is allowed it corrupts itself and turns into fascism and economic-darwinism

nanoboy

>No, but I'd feel ridiculous living in a country and not speaking the native language.

--- then I'd DEFINATELY invite you to come over here, because that attitude is WAY better than most of the schucks we get from arbroad.

>$44 trillion / 256 million people = approx. 172 thousand dollars each.

--- Big, but not impossible to pay off... for the next century ;(

>I wasn't making a point about national economy, but about living standards.

--- very well. But when I think of living standard, my first thought go to economic condititions.

Didnt the Pinto case give a huge backlash for Ford?

Let us through in the equation my humble experience of being a citizen of the Netherlands, living in Finland for 3 and a half years and having visited the US briefly twice.

You might complain about the tax rates in Denmark, but those in Finland are probably equally high, or even higher. Moreover the wages are one of the lowest in Europe. Together that would mean that Finland is very poor. But it isn't of course.

Taxes might be lower in the states and lots of people drive big cars, but a large population of the US is facing poverty, which would very difficult to find in any socialist european country. There are no superrich people, and there are no superpoor people in these european countries.

This is of course very annoying for these selfish people, whose only aim is to make money. But do we really care about these superficial people? Would we really want a state that is build to serve the few and not the many?

Do we really need a society in which the american dream is the ultimate source of projected happines.

I can't answer for other people of course, but it seems to me that most european people are leading a happier and more fulfilling live than most americans. Unless you are of course born into the right family as is Jerrek. Then dreams might become easily accesible. And who cares if a large proportion of the society has to suffer because people like him need to make their american dream come true.

I visited the US twice, and I found it remarkable that the prices of much products were not really cheaper than in Europe. Only things such as cars, and petrol jump out. You would expect with such low taxes that most things on average would be cheaper. Apparently not and apparently there is some invisible tax somewhere hidden in the system.

rant over.

oh ja.,..

I have been living in finland now for more than 3 years and I hardly speak the language.

And if you are going to live in switserland, you might have to learn 3 languages.

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
Let us through in the equation my humble experience of being a citizen of the Netherlands, living in Finland for 3 and a half years and having visited the US briefly twice.

You might complain about the tax rates in Denmark, but those in Finland are probably equally high, or even higher. Moreover the wages are one of the lowest in Europe. Together that would mean that Finland is very poor. But it isn't of course.

...

Do we really need a society in which the american dream is the ultimate source of projected happines.

I can't answer for other people of course, but it seems to me that most european people are leading a happier and more fulfilling live than most americans. Unless you are of course born into the right family as is Jerrek. Then dreams might become easily accesible. And who cares if a large proportion of the society has to suffer because people like him need to make their american dream come true.



Hey monkey :)

It is true that taxes in Finland is very high, as well. It ranks among the Top5 in Europa.

The impression of low average income in FInland is furthermore stregnthened when considering that a few years back, Nokia (mobil phones) delivered 33% af the Finland GNP.

As to your question of the "american dream". For most, the "american dream" means a materialistically better life, but essentially "the american dream" means that you should be free to find your own happiness in life.

So I ask - how would you know if people are living a fulfilling life or not? You simply cant know!

Lastly, I am myself slowly attempting at a break with the materialistic overflow. I dont believe many physical things are beneficial in the long run, but again, this is my own decision. Give people the freedom to find out themselves.

"Growing up it all seems so one-sided, opinions all provided, the future pre-decided detached and subdivided in the mass production zone. Nowhere is the dreamer or the misfit so alone. Subdivisions, conform or be cast out." -Subdivisions, Signals


I read Nietzsche a lot and I can get some insights from nietzsche's philosophy. Nietzsche clearly stated it that *development* of the whole world and nations should start in their physiology (Ref. to his book Twilight of the Idols) , and then everything comes as consequence.
This is not the case with USA capitalism. The core of USA capitalist values are based on economical-production, deregulation, capitalisation of public services, privatism which is not the basis of a fair socialist democratic system.
I know we cannot have a real perfect 100% socialist system because it's too Utopic (at least too hard). But even within the context of a socialist-democratic-system we can have something different than this Adam Smith Capitalist system which is hedonist, materialist, egocentric, competition, elitist, consumerist system that neoliberal-democracy is founded on and subdivides and aliniates the individual into mass production zones (factories, offices, apartment complexes, etc.)
I realize the U.S.A is is among the greatest nations today. Compared with so many *chaostic* nations, U.S.A would be one of best places to live, but I also realize that if it continues on this economic ideology, it will be another big poor country, full of taxes, poor people, and crimes.
Nietzsche said "As little state as possible" because "The state lies". Another great thinker stated "Power corrrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" There is no doubt that according to these maxims and experience. The U.S.A has evolved into a big Argentina, and as we can see it is heading toward an Argentinian degenerated failed Roman Empire.

Read this poem-song very smart-lyrics and worth pondering


Subdivisions

Sprawling on the fringes of the city
In geometric order
An insulated border
In between the bright lights
And the far unlit unknown

Growing up it all seems so one-sided
Opinions all provided
The future pre-decided
Detached and subdivided
In the mass production zone
Nowhere is the dreamer or the misfit so alone

Subdivisions, In the high school halls
In the shopping malls
Conform or be cast out

Subdivisions. In the basement bars
In the backs of cars
Be cool or be cast out
Any escape might help to smooth the unattractive truth
But the suburbs have no charms to soothe the restless dreams of youth

Drawn like moths we drift into the city
The timeless old attraction
Cruising for the action
Lit up like a firefly
Just to feel the living night

Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights...


nanoboy

Originally posted by DJSupreme23
The impression of low average income in FInland is furthermore stregnthened when considering that a few years back, Nokia (mobil phones) delivered 33% af the Finland GNP.


yes, the finnish economy seems to be entirely dependent on trees and nokia. Imagine what would happen if the competition finally managed not to make a butt ugly phone.

And if you are going to live in switserland, you might have to learn 3 languages.True, but the political system seems worth it to me, let alone the chocolate, the scenery, the gun laws... :)

The thing is like i said that USA-values are based on that to be somebody you have to have a big car, and a big house. That' why USA judges other cultures and countries on what kind of car they drive, and what kind of house they have

:-)

nanoboy

Holland is also famous for it's taxes and regulations, however this is only a socialist-democratic fake image, cause the tax systems provide many loopholes and escape hatches for the smart company owners. Latest polls suggest Holland has supassed Italy in matters of corruption (especially in the buildingconstruction sector) and that dutch employees tend to steal from their bosses.

But I would say that our healthcare is pretty good.

If you ask me, I'd say that the taxes are secondary to a more serious problem, that being the massive amounts of nonwhite immigrants coming to Scandinavia every year. Do the residents of Denmark honestly want to see their country's culture and genetic heritage slide further down the slope?

Darn right - can't go polluting all that there viking blood now - after all, if you do it'll only exist in france, the UK, ireland and america....

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by EI_Sparks
Darn right - can't go polluting all that there viking blood now - after all, if you do it'll only exist in france, the UK, ireland and america....

:rolleyes:

Despite what you may think, the UK, France, and USA are in danger of being irreparably damaged by nonwhites as well. (I don't know of Ireland's situation)

In fact, all the lands of Europe are in danger of having their culture and whiteness destroyed by nonwhites. Voting neocon isn't enough, they should vote for further right parties like the National Front.

Most countries are "polluted" by blacks and by whites too, like when spaniards from Spain colonized South America and stole the gold, so i guess that the indians and blacks have a right now to steal back their stolen gold from whites

nanoboy

Well, that's what we are afraid of, The precious is MINE!!! ALL MINE!!!:eek: ;)

*sigh*
Every day I have to add another name to the ignore list :(
Welcome to it, You Killed Jesus...

Most countries are "polluted" by blacks and by whites too, like when spaniards from Spain colonized South America and stole the gold, so i guess that the indians and blacks have a right now to steal back their stolen gold from whites

*coughsorrycough*. :(

While the colonization of Africa and the destruction of the Aztec & Incan empires were indeed bad choices by whites, that doesn't mean I will be a traitor to my race and aid its destruction. That was in the past, the white race is being threatened right now. My race has created great works of art and put men on the moon, be damned if it's destroyed.

black, white, yellow, pink or purple everyone has an ass, yours You Killed Jesus just smells worse then the rest.

time to flush the thread?

Of course I deny the existence of race...

Originally posted by You Killed Jesus
While the colonization of Africa and the destruction of the Aztec & Incan empires were indeed bad choices by whites, that doesn't mean I will be a traitor to my race and aid its destruction. That was in the past, the white race is being threatened right now. My race has created great works of art and put men on the moon, be damned if it's destroyed.

details details...little details...jesus wasn't white of course...

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
details details...little details...jesus wasn't white of course...

I'm not a christian, my name is a quote from a film.

This thread was about political-theory and what does white has to do with socialism or capitalism. Unless you are a fascist

nanoboy

anyhoo...the socialist paradise is slightly cracking though. There has been already talk about raising the retirement age to 70. There are not enough young people anymore to support the system.

Pity the Nation

Pity the nation that is full of beliefs and empty of religion.

Pity the nation that wears a cloth it does not weave, eats a bread it does not harvest, and drinks a wine that flows not from its own wine-press.

Pity the nation that acclaims the bully as hero, and that deems the glittering conqueror bountiful.

Pity the nation that despises a passion in its dream, yet submits in its awakening.

Pity the nation that raises not its voice save when it walks in a funeral, boasts not except among its ruins, and will rebel not save when its neck is laid between the sword and the block.

Pity the nation whose stateman is a fox, whose philosopher is a juggler, and whose art is the art of patching and mimicking.

Pity the nation that welcomes its new ruler with trumpetings, and farewells him with hootings, only to welcome another with trumpetings again.

Pity the nation whose sages are dumb with years and whose strong men are yet in the cradle.

Pity the nation divided into fragments, each fragment deeming itself a nation.

-- Khalil Gibran

from The Garden of the Prophet

so ahh is switzerland the place to live and work? how do they do it?

i think they are small enough ;)

Switzerland- at least some direct democracy, compulsory armed forces membership and apparently a comprehensive defensive plan if anyones silly enough to invade, nice, out of the way country with few natural resources anyone would want to steal, lots of money through dodgy banking, nice scenery, keep themselves to themselves.
What more could you need?

compulsory armed forces membership

since when is compulsory a plus? also doesnt membership imply volunteering? also i have been to geneva and zurich in my teens and came with the impression that it as the dullest place ever! what has changed? are there like, cool hangouts (apart from the ski slopes that is)? as for scenery, i get that on my desktop. as for "keeping to themselves", perhaps that contributes to the impression of dullness.

;)

Of course Switzerland has little power abroad due to its isolation. Even its banks cant do much other than make money.

IM not quite sure why i said armed forces membership was a plus. ahh well. Lets you keep assault rifles at home, that would please some people.

But of course. Isolation is the key to it. If your isolated who wants to invade you, and who do you want to invade? Saves you having to attack everyone who might possibly be a threat in the future. And besides, whats wrong with making money?

A big nation doesn't invade a smaller one for religious motives but for natural resources, this is as old as hunger

nanoboy

Of course Switzerland has little power abroad due to its isolation. Even its banks cant do much other than make money.
And once again clockwood exhibits his or her lack of knowlege and education.
For a start, you don't see the swiss military outside switzerland and the vatican because of
1) a very old treaty preventing it
2) the people there have more sense than to bomb anyone that disagrees with them.

And if you think that banks do anything other than make money, well, I honestly can't think of words to adaquately describe how silly you would be.

By all means Europeans, tax your citizens to death, watch unemployment skyrocket, GDP per capita plummet, and people live boring monotonous lives. And in case you don't agree with me on the last part, look at the immigration lines please... You don't see people lining up and crying for Finish or Danish immigration cards. But you do see half the world, and at least 90% of the anti-American world, trying to immigrate to the United States.

If you're a right-winger and like to work and earn your own living instead of parasiting on other people, by all means, come here and let us try to ship off 10 neo-communists to Europe. Let them take it down the shitter.

DJ, I applaud your posts. I feel very, very sorry for you that you have to live in such a shit hole (no offense, but I think you're eyes are open). I've done a lot of traveling and I've been to most European countries and they are shitholes to live in. Pleasant for a very expensive vacation, but not to live and work in. I hope, if it is your dream, that you can come to the United States and become a productive, self-supporting citizen. :) You might try to come to Canada first. We're more liberal (unfortunately for us, fortunate for you) and you're more likely to get into Canada.

You have to say: "If you are fascist (i.e. right-winger) come to USA" haha. But that's till 2004, I doubt Bush-2 will win again with his impeachment due and his war-crimes

nanoboy

Well hang on there a min, I seem to recall seeing vast amounts of immigrants getting to Europe from all over the world, especially the east, which is directly connected and makes us easier to get to than the USA. Perhaps DJsupreme would lik to comment on the imigration to Denmark, last I knew which was a few years ago they were getting fed up with all the immigrants.

Besides Jerrek seems not to have learnt that the whole GDP thing is a con, like the international system we have now.

90%? wow, such a big head you have. Dont you know desperate people go where the money is?

Boring monotonous lives? compared to the Right wing usa's roller coaster? "Whats happened to my pension provision? Whys my job just dissappeared, why does food keep getting more expensive?"

I mean if you want biased, unrepresentative posting, come on, we can all do that.

Jerrek,
At least most of our kids have enough to eat.
http://www.balochistanpost.com/item.aspx?id=4139

It makes more sens ethan depressing the wages. Here in the U.S. most eek by with minimum wage:

60 hour work week at $5/hour (after taxes and at high end min. wage)= $1200/month or $14400/year

Now let's budget:

Rent $800 (low end)
Food $100 (basics)
Utilities $150
Transportation $30 (Bus pass)
Clothing etc. $50
Health insurance $200 (more if you are >30)

Oops looks like working 9 hours a day seven days a week or 12 hours for five days, you are lacking for funds. That's why most go without insurance. Mediocre is in fact preferable to nothing. There are plenty of stories of dying people being turned away because of lack of insurance. A particular man died of diabetes outside a hospital after being turned away because of recorded prior events of his innability to pay.

Originally posted by Jerrek
and people live boring monotonous lives.

Since when is buying a bigMac and stuffing your face exciting?
Originally posted by Jerrek

And in case you don't agree with me on the last part, look at the immigration lines please... You don't see people lining up and crying for Finish or Danish immigration cards. But you do see half the world, and at least 90% of the anti-American world, trying to immigrate to the United States.

feel free to visit the immigration lines to places such as holland. Most european countries are very attractive to many people.

Originally posted by Jerrek

I've done a lot of traveling and I've been to most European countries and they are shitholes to live in.

I can say the same thing about the US. What a shitholes were the place I visited. And are they exciting places to live in? Why do they call closing at 2 a nightlife? Most american cities are as exciting as my left ear. Let's go the mall and have some fun...wow..... Please stay out of Europe. We don't really need your type here.