I just ran accross a very intresting new story from the Sudan, about how it seems the Islamic Leadership feels about the equality of women, and what they will do to anyone who upsets that beleaf,
Sudan Islamist branded apostate for pro-women comments



KHARTOUM (AFP) - A Sudanese Islamist leader who once protected Al-Qaeda supremo Osama bin Laden was branded an apostate by the country's Muslim scholars for taking a liberal stand on women's rights.

The clerics proposed trying Hassan al-Turabi for apostasy following recent declarations by the Popular Congress Party leader that women were equal to men, had the right to marry a Christian or a Jew and could even lead prayers.

"Turabi should declare repentance or face the Sharia Hadd for heresy," said the statement by the Muslim Scholars Committee, which has the support of the government and controls many of the country's mosques.

Hadd is a word in Islamic law that applies to punishments inflicted for some of the most serious offenses. The traditional punishment for heresy or apostasy in Sharia law is the death penalty.

During a conference in Khartoum earlier this month, Turabi -- the country's most famous Muslim theologian -- sparked an intense debate by expressing liberal views on Sudanese society and Islam.

The white-turbaned 74-year-old cleric described the Muslim teachings that a Muslim woman should not marry a Christian or a Jew as "backward" and that adherence to such principles was aimed at hampering women's rights.

He sanctioned mixed prayers so long as men and women did not sit too close to each other, in order to avoid "arousing sexual feelings" that could distract worshippers from their praying.

Turabi, who spent several years aggressively promoting a hardline Islamist ideology, also said a woman's testimony was worth a man's and even more in cases when a woman commands superior expertise in a specific field.

Once the power behind President Omar al-Beshir's throne, Turabi fell from grace in 2000 and was detained several times. He was last released in June 2005 and remains one of Sudan's leading opposition figures.

It was on Turabi's advice that former Sudanese president Jaafar Nimeiri ordered in 1985 the execution by hanging at age 75 of Mahmud Mohammed Taha for refusing to recant his unorthodox views on Islam.

Taha, who founded the Republican Brothers organisation and held liberal views notably on the place of women in society, was then Turabi's arch rival.

The Islamist leader now faces a taste of his own medicine but defiantly reiterated his views several times in recent interviews and lectures, sparking the ire of Muslim traditionalists worldwide.

He hit back at his critics Saturday night during a gathering at the University of Khartoum, accusing them of defending "stale ideas".

He justified his statement on marriage by explaining that Christians and Jews are "People of the Book" and therefore not infidels.

Turabi also advocated dialogue with the West in order to improve the image of Islam and stressed that jihad (holy war) should only be waged "in self-defence and not in aggression against others."

He deplored that the West had "a wrong idea and a bad image of Islam". "We seek to present a good model and I have even spoken with the Pope on this matter," he added.

It was Turabi, then the eminence grise of Beshir's Islamist regime, who invited bin Laden to Sudan in 1990 and provided him with a safe haven from 1991 to 1996, when the Al-Qaeda chief was eventually expelled under mounting international pressure on Khatoume.
(04-23-06)

Diamondheart, are you out there, are you OK, been a while since we heard from you?

Islam takes the line that men and women are both equal, and that we have qualities, roles and responsibilities that are both different and the same. These are rulings given by God, not to oppress people, but to protect us from anything harmful.

Islam does state that Muslim women should not marry non-muslim men, including other believers such as Christians or Jews. This is a practical issue more than anything, as Muslims have a duty to raise their children as Muslims, and as parents are the primary teachers of their children, they both need to be on the same page. Also it would be inappropriate for a Muslim woman to agree to the wishes of her husband if he held Christian values (or other beliefs), as they would contradict her own Islamic values, and this would be a source of conflict, and could also be an example of shirk (the sin of attributing partners to Allah).

A Muslim woman is allowed to lead prayers (and become an imam) if the congregation is all female, but in a mixed congregation it's considered inappropriate as she'll have to bend down in front of men, which will compromise her modesty and dignity. Historically, Muslim women have been some of the best Islamic scholars, particularly Aisha (RA), wife of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). http://www.islamfortoday.com/womenscholars.htm

"Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers." - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in his Last Sermon.

"None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully." - Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (At-Tirmithy)

According to Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said:
"If a daughter is born to a person and he brings her up, gives her a good education and trains her in the arts of life, I shall myself stand between him and hell-fire." (Kanz al-Ummal)

'Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of women to the will of men.'

I would say that women actually have more rights under Islam, than in other cultures. For instance, Muslim women have the right to choose to get married or not and they have the right to choose who they get married to, and also the right to ask for a divorce.

As a wife, Muslim women have the right to be fully supported financially by their husbands, and they have the right to choose not to share their house with other family members. They also have the right to work outside of the home, and they have the exclusive right not to contribute any of their income to the household, as this is the sole responsibility of the husband. Muslim women have the right to own, sell and inherit property (which was illegal in the West until about 100 years ago), and they also have the right to own and run businesses. The first wife of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was also his employer, a very successful businesswoman, and 15 years older than him.

More on women's rights in Islam:
http://islam101.com/women/womlib.html
http://majlis.freeyellow.com/Woman.html

Islam does state that Muslim women should not marry non-muslim men, including other believers such as Christians or Jews.

Funny how muslim men are allowed to "take" women from whatever country they are destabilizing and attempting to overthrow, whether they are Christians, Jews, Buddists or Hindus.
They invade a country "by force" or "increace their numbers and take it by marriage".
At which point when they have sufficient numbers they can claim they are not terrorists but freedom fighters, wanting only a seperate state or piece of the nation for their people to live.
Then when that is achieved they destabilize the whole nation from within and through civil war take the whole country....declaring it a muslim nation and changing the name into one with a name ending with -stan...., like Kurdistan, or Pakistan.
One country after another is added to the list each year, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, the former states of the Soviet union, all fall by the same method under the black robes of oppression, through lies, murder of innocent children, abuse of women, and destuction of individual freedom and hope.

The rest of the non-muslim world is not so naive to your ways as you would suppose, my muslim friend.

Just to correct some of your misinformation:

1. If you had read my post you would have understood that a woman has the right to choose who she marries, and that marriage must always be by consent. A Muslim man can not 'take' a Muslim woman or any other woman to be his wife, and by the same token, neither a man nor a woman can be forced or coerced into converting to Islam: "There is no compulsion in religion" [Qur'an 2:256]

2. Wars of aggression go against the guidance within both the Qur'an and Sunnah. A war can only be waged in self-defense or for the purpose of overthrowing an oppressor of Muslims. Allah also forbids Muslims from attacking anyone who allows others to live in peace:

"And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression - for, verily, God does not love aggressors." [Qur'an 2:190]

3. The guidance for Muslims in battle, since the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), has always been that civilians (men, women and children), people engaged in religious worship, and even animals and trees are all protected from the destruction of warfare.

Muhammad (pbuh) said, "If even a little sparrow has been killed unjustly, it will appear before the Lord of the worlds crying for justice!" (An-Nasa'i, Ad-Darami, and Ahmad)

4. The only nation that has recently invaded another nation by force, destabalising it from within, creating a situation of civil war through the murdering, torture, rape and abuse of its men, women and children, and the only nation that has labelled men as terrorists who defend their country from foreign invaders, is the USA.

5. The suffix 'stan' is an ancient Persian (Iranian) or Farsi word meaning country, nation, land, or 'place of', eg. Afghanistan means 'land of the Afghans'. The origins of the Persian languages, part of the Indo-European languages, date back thousands of years, pre-dating Islam. http://worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/stan.htm

6. Each 'Muslim nation', from Morocco to Indonesia, has a completely unique history of its own, with very different types of government, and a variety of ethnicities, languages and cultural influences within each one.

7. Long before a white Euro-American 'settler' had killed his first native American, Islam had arrived in South East Asia. Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines, to a greater or lesser extent, have all known Islam since the 14th century. The Central Asian nations (such as Turkmenistan) which were former states of the Soviet Union, were Muslim and Orthodox Christian lands long before Marx had even been born. All of these nations fell under the oppression of either European colonialism or communism, yet their Muslim people remained faithful to Islam throughout. (MashaAllah)

Peace.

Well, the women suicide/genocide bombers have "equal rights".

I wonder when Goeff is going to spring up!!!??!!!

_Passerby you are quite correct.

hopefully the guy from Sudan will be ok, we need more people to speak about more progressive forms of Islam, rather than the old dogmatic stuff

Passerby, read my post, and then explane why?
The clerics proposed trying Hassan al-Turabi for apostasy following recent declarations by the Popular Congress Party leader that women were equal to men, had the right to marry a Christian or a Jew and could even lead prayers.

"Turabi should declare repentance or face the Sharia Hadd for heresy," said the statement by the Muslim Scholars Committee, which has the support of the government and controls many of the country's mosques.

We need more muslims like al-Turabi, if he is being genuine and their is no hidden agenda, to challenge the muslim leaders from within rather than non muslims challenging us.

It is claer the time has come for a new progressive approach to take shape.

or else we are all fucked!!!!

Perhaps this is not a fight for us westerners, afterall we don't understand this religion so they claim, it's a peacefull religion so they claim, it's all false propaganda by the west to fool us to believing islam is evil, so they say, how about hearing from a few who have left the fucking religion of death?

click (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles.htm#women)

Leaving Islam (http://www.mideastbooks.com/leavingislam.html)

Apostasy and Human Rights (http://www.iheu.org/node/1541)

Ayaan Hirsi Ali : : A Muslim Woman Speaks Out (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1575755/posts)

Oh! just tell me passerby you pathetic little shit that the above woman is lying!

Though abuse of women happens in every society, every religion, let us not be fooled by the so called islamocultists that their religion is not affected by this phenomena.

Wife Abuse in the Muslim Community (http://www.jannah.org/sisters/wifeabuse.html)

Discrimination of women and child abuse (Warning graphic pictures of these bastards handy work) (http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/womenchildabuse/)

This great religion of peace. *VOA News-Pakistan (http://www.voanews.com/burmese/2006-04-07-voa7.cfm)

Just push play, and hear in her own language. (http://www.allthingsbeautiful.com/all_things_beautiful/2005/12/fatwas_authoriz.html)

Just tell me little shits muslim jackass who have infested this site, that she speaks bull shit!.

Religion of peace MyASS! (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1533563,00.html)

Sheiks are known to have dozen's of wives and even more concubines in which to have sex with. This would leave the 'wives' with many nights that they would not see their husband, and therefore their only source of sexual pleasure. (Adultery is punishable by death, and even the accusation holds the death penalty). And yet, adultery, in the Muslim religion, is only concerned with heterosexual sex. Women in harem's are known to learn lesbian ways. So much so, that the men of the Muslim religion, began to perform the clitoridectomy, to keep the women from practicing lesbian relations. Ref. (http://reactor-core.org/islamic-homosexuality.html)

Oh! aren't these assholes so peacefull?

Islam the religion of pedophelia, started by a fucking pedophile no less (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4831184.stm)

click (http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publication/faultlines/volume16/Article3.htm)

I'm tired of this peacefull religion.


Godless

Perhaps this is not a fight for us westerners, afterall we don't understand this religion so they claim, it's a peacefull religion so they claim, it's all false propaganda by the west to fool us to believing islam is evil, so they say, how about hearing from a few who have left the fucking religion of death?

Oh! just tell me passerby you pathetic little shit that the above woman is lying!

Though abuse of women happens in every society, every religion, let us not be fooled by the so called islamocultists that their religion is not affected by this phenomena.

Just tell me little shits muslim jackass who have infested this site, that she speaks bull shit!.

Pathetic assholes

Godless
Do you have to be so aggressive rude and insulting Godless

I agree with you, this is not a fight all us westerners (just some - the muslim ones), and shit dare i say it there are tons of European and US born muslims. it is something us muslims have to sort out. Unfortunately muslims at the moment have extremely dispicable leaders ( quite a lot of them but obviously not all of them in the entirety)both political and religous who do shit for their own agendas and are hell bent on causing maximum shit.

Once we ahve our own ship in order then we will progress. On of my main beefs at the moment is Wahhbism, please see my thread called "is there no stopoping these idiots" at
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=54198
These bunch of fuckwits need to be sorted out for starters.
Intolerant parnoid fucks they are

Sorry Zac, rudeness in the face of idiotic bs, is my nature.

I find all religion repulsive, manupaltive, evil, and a main factor of why things are going to shit, in the world today.

The world's population would greatly advance without the rhetorical fantacy bullshit of religion. Science, and today's technological, medical advances have proven that.

BTW did you see the video?

Godless

i hope to peruse the links today, but have not done yet.

I am not sure the world will progress without religion as it is in the nature of man to manipulate others into doing what they want. if there was no religion there will be something else these fuckers would use as a vechile/channel to achieve more power, money etc,....

Buffalo:

The story you quoted was from Sudan, a country which has, let's face it, been backwards even before Islam was introduced. Islam is merely used as a justification for the mistreatment and slavery of women over there.

Islam's attitude towards women in general varies. While men in the Arab world (even non-Muslims) tend to be more chauvanistic in the West, the fact still remains that the only places where women are treated like animals and slaves are some of the Gulf states (not including Iraq).
Generally, women in non-Gulf countries (expect Iraq) can become doctors, scientists and engineers. In fact, one of Saddam's top scientists in his Weapon's Program was a woman.
I doubt that there is 'equality' between the sexes per se, but many countries all over the world still suffer from gender equality. Muslim countries are often the victims of exaggeration and misconceptions.

it is extremely hard to imagine a world without religion, I'm not too sure what you say is true, though at one point just as we are now realizing the evil of religion so shall we realize who really holds the power "these fuckers" which are few compared to plain civilians, or the majority of the world's population. What ya think? No corporation can "manipulate me" to buy their product, I buy gas cause it makes my car go, I can't control the prize of gas, but I can control the amount of my comsumption.

No government can manipulate me, I live in a country, but as long as I'm not held against my will, i'm free to leave, If I find I don't like the way things are going, I can also voice my opinions as long as I'm aloud to do so, fortunately in this country I am, and I'm willing to bet many Americans would fight to keep that right. ;)

Godless

I doubt that there is 'equality' between the sexes per se, but many countries all over the world still suffer from gender equality. Muslim countries are often the victims of exaggeration and misconceptions.

The only question I have for you now is; Does the woman in the video exaggerating?

Now I know all muslims are not alike, heck there are a few good ones,
"the one's who leave the freaking religion" ;) Yea, these are the moral ones, these people profess their views of their religion, are we to judge them as exaggerating?

Most of my sources if you cared to pay attention are from former islamics, are they exaggerating? or they just lived it, and are fucking fed up with it, and finally have the guts to speak out!

Godless

We need more muslims like al-Turabi, if he is being genuine and their is no hidden agenda, to challenge the muslim leaders from within rather than non muslims challenging us.

It is claer the time has come for a new progressive approach to take shape.

or else we are all fucked!!!!
you are exactly the kind of muslim the islamic faith needs.

i am positive that no one wants islam to disappear
but there are plenty that want islam to be less extreme

it's people like you zakariya that give me hope that we can indeed come to grips with the worlds religions

The only way to come to grips with the world's religion is to eradicate them.

Politically people can solve and come to agreements to solve their greavences, religiously there will always be conflict of interest that will lead to war. Proven by non-other then history itself.

Here ya go Zac, this message for you:

About
Faith Freedom International

Islamic terrorism is inspired by Islamic teachings. We can never get rid of Islamic terrorism unless we defeat the ideology behind it and that is Islam itself. Islam induces hate backed by lies. Muhammad was a terrorist by his own admission. All Muslims, to the extent that they follow him, are terrorists. Those Muslims who are not terrorists are ignorant of Islam and are not good Muslims. Fortunately they are the majority. We need to rescue them. If you are a good human being, you are not a Muslim. Read this site and if you can't prove me wrong, which you certainly can't, leave this deceitful cult of hate and terror and join mankind. Don't be part of the Umma. Umma is fascism. It is divisive. It induces the hatred of others. Be part of humanity instead. Your ignorance is not an excuse. Pull your head out of the sand and face the truth, like we did.

Faith Freedom International is a grassroots worldwide movement of ex-Muslims and all those who are concerned about the rise of the Islamic threat. We want to bring humanity together, not by introducing yet another doctrine, which always ends up dividing mankind more, but by eliminating the doctrines that divide us. We want to abolish this evil 'Muslim vs. Kafir" dichotomy. Mankind is one family. Don't let narcissist men like Hitler and Muhammad sunder us with their big lies. Don't become the victim of the "divide and rule" policy of a psychopath.

Faith Freedom stands for freedom of faith. We are against Hate, not Faith. We revere human rights not human beliefs. We endeavor to be factually correct, not politically correct.

Do your part! Let this message out. Let us eradicate Islam and bring mankind together - the way God intended. Islam is the cancer of humanity. We can get rid of it. There is nothing we humans can't do. Mountains move aside to make way for those who are determined. click (http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm)

Godless

godless
you cannot possibly be american and preach the eradication of one or the other religion
after all that is one thing america stands for is religious freedom

I'm American, but did I say "eradicate religion by force?" NO! I merely responded to your statement, thus it's my opinion. Even here in the states today we have minor conflicts between religions sects, though they know the rules of the game, laws protect us from them becoming violent, but you should also know that they have, often times become violent acts of agression, church burning, mosques, Jewish Synagogues, killing abortion doctors, religious political agendas, see were I'm going with this? We have conflict of interest in religiousity even in our "free" society. We in order to survive as a human species, will need to eradicate religion by education, religion stagnates our natural human evolutionary technological development. Already seen in the fight agains stem cell research, and many other topics of "religious ethics" that conflict with science development.

I just went to the Freedom From Religion website, look at the introduction page.
http://www.ffrf.org/index.php

See what I mean?, already we are loosing our rights of a free secular nation, under the banner of religion. It's their nature to control by force, hence the only way to be safe from religion oppression is to eradicate the fucking cults. All of them, not just Islam, Christianity what have ya! no eradicate the fary tale BS, and we shall see a free society.



Godless

The U.S. has never be a secular nation, and show me in our Constitution were it says that you have freedom from religeon, If you read the 1st Amendment I.2
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. It establishes free practice there of, so your opinnion is a violation of the Constitution that you want to wrap your self in to denie other their rights!

*That the Founding Fathers debated whether to open the American saga with prayer is wonderfully fitting, for their conflicts are our conflicts, their dilemmas our dilemmas. Largely faithful, they knew religious wars had long been a destructive force in the lives of nations, and they had no wish to repeat the mistakes of the world they were rebelling against. And yet they bowed their heads."

Although there was prayer at the Continental Congress that produced the unsuccessful Articles of Confederation (nothing fails like prayer!) preceding the U.S. Constitution, there was no prayer at the Constitutional Convention adopting our living Constitution. After the Constitutional Convention of 1787 had been underway for a month, the octogenarian Ben Franklin suggested that the so-far secular convention conduct a prayer. Records from Franklin and others incontestably show that Franklin's proposal created polite embarrassment, and that the convention adjourned without any vote on the motion. A prayer-less convention adopted a godless constitution.click (http://www.ffrf.org/news/2006/russert.php)

so your opinnion is a violation of the Constitution that you want to wrap your self in to denie other their rights!

AGAIN DID I SAY force people to quit their fucking religion?

No! Simply put, if people quit believing in BULLSHIT! religion then would be eradicated, wouldn't it?

Godless

I often wonder on this forum how certain Americans expect 'the rest of the world' to respect 'American' values and culture, when they themselves refuse to show any respect for someone who holds different beliefs and values to them.
Perhaps it is this contempt for other cultures, beliefs and ways of life, that creates anti-Americanism.
(Peace)

I often wonder on this forum how certain Americans expect 'the rest of the world' to respect 'American' values and culture, when they themselves refuse to show any respect for someone who holds different beliefs and values to them.

Eh! it's pretty damn hard to respect a culture who condems the rest of the world for not believing in their same rhetorical bull shit, it's even harder to respect a religious belief system that completely allows pedophilia, and never the less the fucking founder of such religion was himself a terrorist and a fucking pedophile! :eek:

Godless

I often wonder on this forum how certain Americans expect 'the rest of the world' to respect 'American' values and culture, when they themselves refuse to show any respect for someone who holds different beliefs and values to them.
Perhaps it is this contempt for other cultures, beliefs and ways of life, that creates anti-Americanism.
(Peace)
can you be more specific?

to whome are you refering and what are they disrespecting?

me personally i have no love for a religion that convicts a man of being mentally insane just because he wants to convert to another religion

i have no love for a religion whose followers murder people over a frikken cartoon

i have no love for a religion that condons honor killings

i can go on but i trust i have made my point

Zakriya, Salam, my respect for your opinnion has growen with the post of your that I read, I would appoligise for Godless's adittude about reliegon but thats his problem, he will have to face it one day, the judgement, if he's right we truely lose nothing, if he's wrong he truely looses everything, as for me, I wish to gain all and I pray that you will to. Peace to You and Your Family.

http://middleastwomen.com is doing important work for women suffering under Islamic rule.

I find it quite laughable when people who have no respect for Muslims or Arabs seem to display some concern for Muslim or Arab women, ex Kiwi123. I must argue, how would you respect women who love and follow their culture and religion which you loathe so much?

There are many orientalists and zionists who conitinue to spread this strange notion that since women cannot wear mini-skirts in Muslim countries in public, they are not treated well, when infact the law also has restrictions on men from wearing shorts to small, or things which women are allowed to wear but men arent like gold, or silk.

These ideas that women arent treated fairly because most of them 'choose' to work at home and care for their children instead of work outside while leaving their children in someone else's care. Also, islamic law dictates that the wife's property is untouchable by the husband without his permission, yet she has a share of the husband's property as a right of law.

Muslim women in many ways choose not to open themselves to sin as western women by going out alone at night, or by spending time with men outside their families, or having close friends who are male and unrelated to them.

Because many western people cannot understand this view as they live by mostly what they want to fulfill their every desires without regard to the people around them, and believe that all people want to be like them makes them think that we are dscontent when we are not.

Instead of letting others decide what is best for us Muslims, let our own people decide.

Muslim women are intelligent enough to make their own decisions about how they want to live.

Peace.

Hey Diamondhearts, do you speak arabic?

If you do have a listen will ya do that?

just push play! (http://www.allthingsbeautiful.com/all_things_beautiful/2005/12/fatwas_authoriz.html)

The only way to come to grips with the world's religion is to eradicate them.

Politically people can solve and come to agreements to solve their greavences, religiously there will always be conflict of interest that will lead to war. Proven by non-other then history itself.

Here ya go Zac, this message for you:

About
Faith Freedom International

Islamic terrorism is inspired by Islamic teachings. We can never get rid of Islamic terrorism unless we defeat the ideology behind it and that is Islam itself. Islam induces hate backed by lies. Muhammad was a terrorist by his own admission. All Muslims, to the extent that they follow him, are terrorists. Those Muslims who are not terrorists are ignorant of Islam and are not good Muslims. Fortunately they are the majority. We need to rescue them. If you are a good human being, you are not a Muslim. Read this site and if you can't prove me wrong, which you certainly can't, leave this deceitful cult of hate and terror and join mankind. Don't be part of the Umma. Umma is fascism. It is divisive. It induces the hatred of others. Be part of humanity instead. Your ignorance is not an excuse. Pull your head out of the sand and face the truth, like we did.

Faith Freedom International is a grassroots worldwide movement of ex-Muslims and all those who are concerned about the rise of the Islamic threat. We want to bring humanity together, not by introducing yet another doctrine, which always ends up dividing mankind more, but by eliminating the doctrines that divide us. We want to abolish this evil 'Muslim vs. Kafir" dichotomy. Mankind is one family. Don't let narcissist men like Hitler and Muhammad sunder us with their big lies. Don't become the victim of the "divide and rule" policy of a psychopath.

Faith Freedom stands for freedom of faith. We are against Hate, not Faith. We revere human rights not human beliefs. We endeavor to be factually correct, not politically correct.

Do your part! Let this message out. Let us eradicate Islam and bring mankind together - the way God intended. Islam is the cancer of humanity. We can get rid of it. There is nothing we humans can't do. Mountains move aside to make way for those who are determined. click (http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm)

Godless

Godless.

i am practically a self taught muslim through reading and questioning muslims and non muslims, so basically what this post is saying is that i am shit at teaching myself and got the wrong end of the stick.

i actually went to a church of england boarding school for 10 years.

I have actually been oon this website before, perhaps the muslims who have left the rligion were taught by a dickhead teacher who did not have a clue. The problem with islamic teaching of today (sorry for speaking generally) is that a lot of these guys do not do anything else so they are not exposed to the reality of the 21st century, and they are basiclly teaching what they have been taught, down through the ages.

In my opinion muslims do not ask enough questions from their religious teachers or other muslims.

My wife for example is a practicing muslim who was taught in a maddrassa in mauritius and she comes out with some really off-key restrictive stuff which does not make sense, when i question her she cant really answer me, its just what shes been told. She is well educated having been to uni and obtained an MSc etc.. so icant undersatnd why she never used to ask questions when it came to religion.

Musilims (not all obviously) in my opinion do not research further than their nose.

I beleive my religion is for peace equal rights etc etc,,, However i am learning lots from these threads and posts. I can really understand why people are pissed off with muslims cos we do shoot ourselves in the foot.

Education education education.
and a reformation.

Zakriya, Salam, my respect for your opinnion has growen with the post of your that I read, I would appoligise for Godless's adittude about reliegon but thats his problem, he will have to face it one day, the judgement, if he's right we truely lose nothing, if he's wrong he truely looses everything, as for me, I wish to gain all and I pray that you will to. Peace to You and Your Family.
thank you buffalo,
i hope all is well with you also.

take care

Perhaps this is not a fight for us westerners, afterall we don't understand this religion so they claim, it's a peacefull religion so they claim, it's all false propaganda by the west to fool us to believing islam is evil, so they say, how about hearing from a few who have left the fucking religion of death?


Godless

I have checked out the video now thank you godless, i have actually been on that site before.

yes that was the fucked up taliban, bunch of evil fuckers, sorry for swearing so much but i absolutely hate them. they have No respect for life or anything.
Created a state through religious terror to control the hapless people of war torn afghanistan.

the peopl of Afghanistan had no chance and still dont have much of a chance with all power crazy fuckers around.

it is extremely hard to imagine a world without religion, I'm not too sure what you say is true, though at one point just as we are now realizing the evil of religion so shall we realize who really holds the power "these fuckers" which are few compared to plain civilians, or the majority of the world's population. What ya think? No corporation can "manipulate me" to buy their product, I buy gas cause it makes my car go, I can't control the prize of gas, but I can control the amount of my comsumption.

No government can manipulate me, I live in a country, but as long as I'm not held against my will, i'm free to leave, If I find I don't like the way things are going, I can also voice my opinions as long as I'm aloud to do so, fortunately in this country I am, and I'm willing to bet many Americans would fight to keep that right. ;)

Godless
All goevrenments manipulate, why do they all alow the selling of cigarettes, i am a smoker and the sooner they ban the selling of cigarettes the better. hbut of course they wont espicailly here in the UK cos of the amount of tax they get.

i think you are perhaps being naive not to think they are

Actually, here in South Africa the government has been gradually tightening anti-smoking laws (especially in public places), and increasing taxes on cigarettes etc. South Africans visiting Europe are surprised by the smoky restaurants there...

God willing, this cleric will be able to make his proofs from the Qur'an. There is so much hypocritical layering of false doctrine to justify doing whatever one wants to do in every religion, but no religion is suffering more from this in our current time, than Islam.

The Qur'an most certainly expresses the rights of women eloquently. I believe the most eloquent statement the Qur'an makes is this "the believing men, and the believing women."

QT

God willing, this cleric will be able to make his proofs from the Qur'an. There is so much hypocritical layering of false doctrine to justify doing whatever one wants to do in every religion, but no religion is suffering more from this in our current time, than Islam.

The Qur'an most certainly expresses the rights of women eloquently. I believe the most eloquent statement the Qur'an makes is this "the believing men, and the believing women."

QT
By the grace of God he will QueenTiye...

I agree with everything you say here.

Islam needs a reformation and its own internal Jihad, to wipe all the shit out from it, which is being injected by these so called religious teachers.

Actually, here in South Africa the government has been gradually tightening anti-smoking laws (especially in public places), and increasing taxes on cigarettes etc. South Africans visiting Europe are surprised by the smoky restaurants there...
increasing taxes ios good for goverment cos they know you wills till smoke, so more revenue.

|f governements are going on about the healkth issue of smoking then they should put their money where their mouths are and ban it completely.

In my opinion muslims do not ask enough questions from their religious teachers or other muslims.

If they did, supposedly in a Arabic Islamic counrtry, they may just get their head shoped off! :eek:

Islam today is basically were Christianity was at it's origin of power, when constatine legalized christianity, there was a rampage of massacre of other religious idealogies, the people were made to convert or die. Basically that's how islam is in an Arabic country. Your fortune is that you haven't experienced the brunt "perhaps" in an Islamic country.

Islam is not so much as a religion, but also a way of life, a government power hungry religion. Islam aims to rule by force. And that's seen just be reading the founding of this religion, it came to be by force, it remains in power by force, and it's subjects are ruled by force!

Learn more about your religion! (http://www.aina.org/martyr.html)

Click here (former islamic speak out) (http://www.secularislam.org/women/secular.htm)

*In February of this year the world came face to face with the forces behind the religion of Islam. The literary controversy over author Salman Rushdie's novel The Satanic Verses, which occasionally deals with Islam in a fanciful and irreverent way, became front-page news when the Ayatollah Khomeini condemned the author and decreed, "It is incumbent on every Muslim to do everything possible to send him to hell."

The Ayatollah's death sentence and $5 million reward for Rushdie's head are symptoms of a fast-growing religious movement which is showing its tyrannical tendencies. With an Islamic holy jihad declared upon the author, driving him into hiding, the Ayatollah has revealed the true colors of Islam to the West. Were's the peacefull religion you are talking about? (http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0840_Salman_Rushdies_Sata.html)

Islam religion of peace (http://www.muslimhope.com/IslamReligionOfPeace.htm)

Are you well equiped to judge your religion! I don't think so, you are allready indoctrinated, thus your opinion is molded by their rhetoric, and you DON'T QUESTION EITHER!

Godless

If they did, supposedly in a Arabic Islamic counrtry, they may just get their head shoped off! :eek:


yes because they are ruled by dickhead leaders

Islam is not so much as a religion, but also a way of life, a government power hungry religion. Islam aims to rule by force. And that's seen just be reading the founding of this religion, it came to be by force, it remains in power by force, and it's subjects are ruled by force!


Are you well equiped to judge your religion! I don't think so, you are allready indoctrinated, thus your opinion is molded by their rhetoric, and you DON'T QUESTION EITHER!

Godless
Agreed.
No of course i am not equipt to judge my religion, hell i have hardly scratched the surface of it

and nor is anyone else on this planet, be it islamic scholars, christian scholars, athestists and so on and so forth.

I probably know more about Christianity then about Islam, and i would no way judge the teachings of Jesus (PBUH).

What makes you so qualified to judge than godless, you know everything do you???

In my opinion people are so quick to judge islam on the back of a few fucked up people doing fucked up things, in the name of Islam

Thank you for the links i will try and check them out soon, got a bit of work to crack on with first for my end of month.

Islam needs a reformation

Assalamu alaikum brother,

With all due respect, I disagree that Islam needs a reformation.

'Reformation' implies changing the very essence and form of the religion, and this is quite evidently inappropriate in Islam: As Muslims, we know that the Qur'an has never been changed, and we have a vast science of hadith which have been faithfully studied and authenticated, and a long history of scholarship since the time of the Prophet (SAWS).

Allah says: "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion" (Qur'an 5:4)

'This verse embodies a clear statement that the religion has been completed and so has no need of addition and deletion.' http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=37555

The term 'reformation' is borrowed from Christian history, a period of transformation and division that the Church was made to undergo, and which has kept the Church fragmented til today. It was a 16th-century movement in Western Europe that aimed at reforming some of the doctrines and practices of the Roman Catholic Church and resulted in the establishment of the Protestant churches.

The notion of a reformation in Islam is something that has been initiated by non-muslims who are attempting to undermine Islam by comparing it to a period of confusion that existed within the European Christian Church. It's a classic case of psychological projection.

Dictionary definition: re-formation n : forming again (especially with improvements or removal of defects); renewing and reconstituting.

As this definition shows, a reformation is incompatible with Islam, because we know it is already a perfect set of guidance completely free from defects as revealed by Allah SWT. To suggest otherwise would be to imply that Allah, the Almighty, All-Seeing, All-Knowing, is somehow imperfect (astaghfirullah) which we know is untrue. (Subhan Allah wa bi Hamdih)

Islam is the complete guidance for all of humankind, for Muslims, Christians, Jews and unbelievers. The Qur'an was revealed to confirm the truths within the Bible and the Torah, and to correct the mistakes that had been added by the hands of men. By this understanding, Islam is the final revelation, the final guidance and the total guidance. If anything, Islam is the final reformation of all that came before.

"Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel." (Qur'an 3:2-5)

"(This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are perfected and then expounded. (It cometh) from One Wise, Informed, (Saying): Serve none but Allah." (Qur'an 11:1-2)

As Muslims we need to renew our understanding of Islam and reclaim the vast knowledge that has existed since the time of the Prophet (SAWS). Only then will we be able to know the true meaning of the Qur'an, and follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS) in the best and most productive way, prioritising Allah SWT in all our actions. We need to reclaim our Islamic history and heritage that has been written out of Western history for centuries, and re-educate our communities. Only then will we be able to weed out the transgressions and cultural perversions within our current practises, and be able to defend ourselves from the ignorance and lies that pervade the media.

Only through the education of Islamic teachings will Muslims be able to equip themselves for the challenges of the 21st century and the challenges that face the unity of our faith. The Ummah faces so many problems around the world, but the problem is not Islam, but a lack of Islam, and too much cultural interference. The problems facing Muslims will never be our closeness to Allah, only our separation from Him. If we want to improve our practise of Islam we have to keep returning to the original sources: the Qur'an and Sunnah. If we don't then we are negating the shahadah: Allah, the only God, and Muhammad, His final Messenger. (Subhan Allah, alhamdulillah)

"Islam is a complete way of life. We must adjust our lifestyle to our religion—not the other way round. That is, we cannot twist the laws of Allah and His message to fit our convenience or to please a person or group. To accomplish this noble mission, Muslims need to coordinate and unite their efforts to withstand the plots that aim at distorting Islamic teachings under slogans like “Reforming Islam” or “Promoting Liberal Islam.” We need to focus our energy in passing the genuine message of Allah to humanity." (Dr. Salwa Rashad from Beyond Terrorism)

May Allah SWT guide us.

(Masalaam)

Passerby,

Waliakum Salaam,

"Islam is a complete way of life. We must adjust our lifestyle to our religion—not the other way round. That is, we cannot twist the laws of Allah and His message to fit our convenience or to please a person or group. To accomplish this noble mission, Muslims need to coordinate and unite their efforts to withstand the plots that aim at distorting Islamic teachings under slogans like “Reforming Islam” or “Promoting Liberal Islam.” We need to focus our energy in passing the genuine message of Allah to humanity." (Dr. Salwa Rashad from Beyond Terrorism)

i wish we would but these Wahhbi's and taleban and other nutcases are twisting the religion to suit themselves.

We need to address the way we learn our religion, a reformation will not change islam, but will change the way we learn about the concepts of Islam in the 21st century. not use the religio n to suit our own needs.

I have said before their is no such thing as moderate or extreme muslims. this is just what has been labelled onto us by non muslim countries and people. Islam is a mdoerate treligion so these so called extremist are just dicks who twist the religion to suit their own fucked up needs

Assalamu alaikum Zakariya,

The quote was from an article written by a respected sister, Dr. Salwa Rashad, about the challenges of Islamophobia that Muslims are facing, on the very moderate website http://www.islamonline.net . She holds a PhD in engineering, writes for an Islamic lifestyle magazine and is a peace activist with the Beyond Terrorism group. Her opinions are in no way extreme.

I think the issue here is one of semantics.

Islam is absolutely about moderation, as is mentioned time and again in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

The practise of Islam (which is what Muslims are striving to do) is based on following the guidance within the Qur'an (the word of Allah) and the guidance within the Sunnah (the actions and sayings of the prophet Muhammad (SAWS)). Therefore, the way we live our lives should be shaped in all ways by this perfect and infallible guidance, which is ultimately the will of Allah.

With this understanding, Islam itself does not need to be reformed. It is insulting to both Allah SWT and His final Prophet (SAWS) to suggest otherwise. Bid'ah (innovation) is also a sin in Islam.

Reform can only come from within Muslims: a reform perhaps in our methods of learning, teaching and educating, but the original sources are infallible and complete, and remain as guidance for all people in all times.

The only way to challenge ideas that you may feel to be misinterpretations is to become a scholar of Islam yourself, to whatever level you can. And this learning is always rooted in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

May Allah SWT guide us to the best of knowledge and bring the ummah to unity. Ameen.

Masalaam.

I find it quite laughable when people who have no respect for Muslims or Arabs seem to display some concern for Muslim or Arab women, ex Kiwi123. I must argue, how would you respect women who love and follow their culture and religion which you loathe so much?

You are mistaken, once again. It is Islam, not Muslims which respect is lacking.

There are many orientalists and zionists who conitinue to spread this strange notion that since women cannot wear mini-skirts in Muslim countries in public, they are not treated well, when infact the law also has restrictions on men from wearing shorts to small, or things which women are allowed to wear but men arent like gold, or silk.

Why would there be restrictions on what one wears? That is not freedom of any kind.

These ideas that women arent treated fairly because most of them 'choose' to work at home and care for their children instead of work outside while leaving their children in someone else's care.

You're awful funny, women aren't allowed to do those things, that's why they're at home.

Also, islamic law dictates that the wife's property is untouchable by the husband without his permission, yet she has a share of the husband's property as a right of law.

But, Muslims do not follow that, do they?

Muslim women in many ways choose not to open themselves to sin as western women by going out alone at night, or by spending time with men outside their families, or having close friends who are male and unrelated to them.

There is no sin going out at night, it is the same as going out in the daytime, without sunlight. What's wrong with spending time with the opposite sex, can Muslims not control themselves?

Essentially, women are not allowed to have male friends. They appear to be prisoners in their own homes. How very sad, indeed.

Because many western people cannot understand this view as they live by mostly what they want to fulfill their every desires without regard to the people around them, and believe that all people want to be like them makes them think that we are dscontent when we are not.

Again, you show your ignorance of other societies coupled with the brainwashing you've received.

Instead of letting others decide what is best for us Muslims, let our own people decide.

Much of the world is working hard to end human rights violations, it's only a matter of time before your people are free from the enslavement of Islam.

Muslim women are intelligent enough to make their own decisions about how they want to live.

Perhaps, but the have not the freedom to do so.

Q

it is purely a muslim thing not islamic. us muslims have to change not the religion.

By the way my wife does what she likes, while i work. she has it much better than me i can tell you that. And i bet that goes for lots of muslims women like my wife.

Assalamu alaikum Zakariya,

There's no need to insult someone and assume negative things about them without knowing them, or use foul language. The quote was from an article written by a respected sister, Dr. Salwa Rashad, about the challenges of Islamophobia that Muslims are facing, on the very moderate website http://www.islamonline.net . She holds a PhD in engineering, writes for an Islamic lifestyle magazine and is a peace activist with the Beyond Terrorism group. Her opinions are in no way extreme.

I think the issue here is one of semantics.

Islam is absolutely about moderation, as is mentioned time and again in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

The practise of Islam (which is what Muslims are striving to do) is based on following the guidance within the Qur'an (the word of Allah) and the guidance within the Sunnah (the actions and sayings of the prophet Muhammad (SAWS)). Therefore, the way we live our lives should be shaped in all ways by this perfect and infallible guidance, which is ultimately the will of Allah.

With this understanding, Islam itself does not need to be reformed. It is insulting to both Allah SWT and His final Prophet (SAWS) to suggest otherwise. Bid'ah (innovation) is also a sin in Islam.

Reform can only come from within Muslims: a reform perhaps in our methods of learning, teaching and educating, but the original sources are infallible and complete, and remain as guidance for all people in all times.

The only way to challenge ideas that you may feel to be misinterpretations is to become a scholar of Islam yourself, to whatever level you can. And this learning is always rooted in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

May Allah SWT guide us to the best of knowledge and bring the ummah to unity. Ameen.

Masalaam.

Apologies Passerby, we have got caught in cross purposes here.

what i mean is us as a people have to change and reflect not the religion itself.

I know that was not a telaban quote. But these are the type of people who need to be stopped.

becuase they call themselves muslims and follow islamic law etc... they give us muslims a terrible image.

The taleban are the agents of the USA

PS i have sent you PM

yes because they are ruled by dickhead leaders

But this is the same ultimate fate that Diamond would assign to muslims who question their religion far enough to leave it. Can you not see that blaming it on the leaders is nonsense? 'Average' muslims like Diamond would do the same.

Geoff

'Reformation' implies changing the very essence and form of the religion, and this is quite evidently inappropriate in Islam: As Muslims, we know that the Qur'an has never been changed, and we have a vast science of hadith which have been faithfully studied and authenticated, and a long history of scholarship since the time of the Prophet (SAWS).

But this is incorrect. The Quran was changed extensively during the Third Caliphate. It is not now known to what extent the present Quran resembes the old.

Allah says: "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion" (Qur'an 5:4)

A biased source. Independents are required.

The term 'reformation' is borrowed from Christian history, a period of transformation and division that the Church was made to undergo, and which has kept the Church fragmented til today. It was a 16th-century movement in Western Europe that aimed at reforming some of the doctrines and practices of the Roman Catholic Church and resulted in the establishment of the Protestant churches.

The notion of a reformation in Islam is something that has been initiated by non-muslims who are attempting to undermine Islam by comparing it to a period of confusion that existed within the European Christian Church. It's a classic case of psychological projection.

Is borrowing innovation 'psychological projection'? This would be like saying "islam doesn't need new ideas in agriculture from Europe or North America; suggesting that we need them is mere psychological projection". The Reformation permitted a movement to clean up corruption in the Christian churches; something islam could certainly benefit from. It could hardly fragment islamic belief further.

As this definition shows, a reformation is incompatible with Islam, because we know it is already a perfect set of guidance completely free from defects as revealed by Allah SWT. To suggest otherwise would be to imply that Allah, the Almighty, All-Seeing, All-Knowing, is somehow imperfect (astaghfirullah) which we know is untrue.

Do we? It is not known if islam is free from defects; either in the source or in the practice.

Islam is the complete guidance for all of humankind, for Muslims, Christians, Jews and unbelievers. The Qur'an was revealed to confirm the truths within the Bible and the Torah, and to correct the mistakes that had been added by the hands of men. By this understanding, Islam is the final revelation, the final guidance and the total guidance. If anything, Islam is the final reformation of all that came before.

But it clearly isn't. There is no 'scriptural advantage', no improvement, no 'superiority of revelation' in islam. There are rules, and a great deal of punishment and threats, but there is no evidence whatever that is the complete guidance for anyone: and certainly not Christians and Jews, who have their own systems. In short: your claim is unfounded.

We need to reclaim our Islamic history and heritage that has been written out of Western history for centuries, and re-educate our communities. Only then will we be able to weed out the transgressions and cultural perversions within our current practises, and be able to defend ourselves from the ignorance and lies that pervade the media.

This is amazing: you blame the West for your own ignorance? And how is it our fault? Should we now blame you for the ice age? Was it our obligation to mention islam in any way?

I also find it curious that you argue against reformation, but argue for change under the banner of "re-education". More fundamentalism, I presume, with the attendant punishments, restrictions and libels.

Geoff

Q

it is purely a muslim thing not islamic. us muslims have to change not the religion.

Fair enough, can you describe those necessary changes, please?

By the way my wife does what she likes, while i work. she has it much better than me i can tell you that. And i bet that goes for lots of muslims women like my wife.

What country do you reside and what does she do that she likes, exactly?

Fair enough, can you describe those necessary changes, please?
?
hUMMM

I am just a simple man. but the basics behind everything is eduction.

So we have to start their for a start...
i will carry on this bit shortly, cos i have to go home in a few minutes, and it could take a while.

dont worry i will be back on to this.


What country do you reside and what does she do that she likes, exactly?
We reside in the UK, and she goes out with her mates all the time while i work. (while the children are in nursery)
i will get back on to this shortly.

In essence my wife is in a much better position socially, financially and personally then a majority of the UK population. She is actually quite mad cos she says that she would like to mvoe to the middleast!! i am the one who is dead against that idea, Mind you she has also said malaysia, which may be an option but i dont have a clue about that couinty.

anyway enough of this Q must go or the wife's going get me!!!!

As what I have seen, many Muslim women speak their mind and have alot of freedom in the home. Women also dominate the fashion, gold, and clothing bazaars in Muslim countries.

I even know a story about a man in Pakistan, when my uncle was passing by him, he was sitting outside his house in the cold. When my uncle asked why, he said my wife is angery with me so she kicked me out of my house because of a disagreement. It ended up, he was actually a really nice man and his wife was also, they just had a small disagreement.

Zakariya, recently many people are moving to United Arab Emirates and it is growing faster than any other country in the Middle East. It is a very rich country with alot of potential. You should consider it.

Also, I agree with passerby on the issue, but I believe that this whole debate was a misunderstanding. It is Muslims who need a revolution in their practice and devotion to Islam. Islam is perfect and does not need a reformation.

Passerby, Zakariya, Allah swt bless you and your families.

Asssalaam Alaiykum.

As what I have seen, many Muslim women speak their mind and have alot of freedom in the home. Women also dominate the fashion, gold, and clothing bazaars in Muslim countries.

Exactly where Muslim men would like to keep them, too, aside from the kitchen.

I even know a story about a man in Pakistan, when my uncle was passing by him, he was sitting outside his house in the cold. When my uncle asked why, he said my wife is angery with me so she kicked me out of my house because of a disagreement. It ended up, he was actually a really nice man and his wife was also, they just had a small disagreement.

Awww, isn't that just the cutest thing?

Zakariya, recently many people are moving to United Arab Emirates and it is growing faster than any other country in the Middle East. It is a very rich country with alot of potential. You should consider it.

Oh yes, a flat, barren coastal plain merging into rolling sand dunes of vast desert wasteland which covers over 90% of the country. And if that doesn't dissuade you, the prospect of their oil eventually running out should.

Also, I agree with passerby on the issue, but I believe that this whole debate was a misunderstanding. It is Muslims who need a revolution in their practice and devotion to Islam. Islam is perfect and does not need a reformation.

I agree, Islam doesn't require reformation, it requires banishment.

I agree, Islam doesn't require reformation, it requires banishment.

(Q)
Thank you for your post i hope you are well.

How do you suggest you go about banishing the Islam, religion of all the prohpets?

Are you an athiest? Or what religion are you?

(Q)How do you suggest you go about banishing the Islam, religion of all the prohpets?

Stop the brainwashing of children through education and understanding.

Yes, you are quite right some islamic teachers have to change the way they teach Islam.

Yes, you are quite right some islamic teachers have to change the way they teach Islam.

Teaching Islam IS brainwashing.

Hey Q
Thank you for your post, i hope all is well with you.

Is all teaching brainwashing then (Q) or Islam the unique exception, please advise.

what kind of crap is this?

"I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were women.... they are ungrateful to their husbands and they are deficient in intelligence. " (The Prophet Muhammad) [B]Sahih Bukhari V 2, B 24, N 541


:confused:
Michael

I find all religion repulsive, manupaltive, evil, and a main factor of why things are going to shit, in the world today. Actually, while I am athiest, I think Buddhism is fine.

At certain points it seems many people in society need a religious belief. For whatever reason. Even China today is seeing a huge surge in religious belief. Particularly Buddhism. Some people need it. So I say, if they need something to believe in then Buddhism is the way to go.

Michael

what kind of crap is this?

"I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were women.... they are ungrateful to their husbands and they are deficient in intelligence. " (The Prophet Muhammad) [B]Sahih Bukhari V 2, B 24, N 541


:confused:
Michael

The Prophet said, "I saw Paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said, "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds. If you are benevolent to one of them throughout the life and if she sees anything (undesirable) in you, she will say, 'I have never had any good from you.' " (Buk 2.161).

What are you reading, the hadith does not say anything about being wrong for women to have intelligence. This is a command for women to respect their husbands, and showing the fact that women will be the majority in the Hellfire because they are more emotional and say such wrong things to others more rashly than men.

The Prophet Muhammad (s) also mentioned that among the most pious of human beings are the noble women like Hazrat Maryam mother of Prophet Jesus, the wife of the Pharoah who raised Prophet Moses, Hazrat Hajar second wife of Abraham, and many other, peace be to them all.

I came upon this quote a while back which I believe explains the Islamic position clearly:

"The perfect woman is a higher type of human than the perfect man, and also something much more rare." - Nietzche

Actually, while I am athiest, I think Buddhism is fine.

At certain points it seems many people in society need a religious belief. For whatever reason. Even China today is seeing a huge surge in religious belief. Particularly Buddhism. Some people need it. So I say, if they need something to believe in then Buddhism is the way to go.

Michael

So you want us to be either athiest or buddhist?

Peace.

Islam is perfect and does not need a reformation.

you forgot one minor detail
allah is not the only god and islam is not the only "perfect" religion

Not only that, they have disagreement between them check out Islamic sects:
http://www.geocities.com/defender_of_the_truth/

The Prophet said, "I saw Paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said, "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds. If you are benevolent to one of them throughout the life and if she sees anything (undesirable) in you, she will say, 'I have never had any good from you.' " (Buk 2.161).

Well it seems you don't mind quoting from Buhkari about SOME things, anyway. I also note that that wasn't the same verse. That specific verse may not have much to do with intelligence, but it is utterly misogynistic.

This is a command for women to respect their husbands, and showing the fact that women will be the majority in the Hellfire

That is not anything like a "fact" - it is an opinion. I thought someone had said you were some kind of legalist or lawyer or something. Can you not differentiate between fact and opinion?

"The perfect woman is a higher type of human than the perfect man, and also something much more rare." - Nietzche

So you want us to be either athiest or buddhist?

I want neither - I want you to admit that islam is not perfect, or that it has no greater claim to perfection than any other religion, and certainly no greater claim to peace or piety as practiced currently.

Further, I want the persecution of apostates, homosexuals, religious minorities and women in islam to end, period. No complaints, no whining; just stop it. In a related venue, the implicit and constant assumption of islamic theological superiority must also end, and with it all funding of islamic da'wa and terrorism in Western nations.

Further still: if your idea of a perfect society is Iran, Afghanistan and bloody Pakistan, then it is clear that islam should be stopped in all nations, everywhere. I would liked to have reached a different conclusion, but your words have resoundingly convinced me otherwise, and I have no assurance whatever that you are anything but an average citizen of your nation. If that is the case, then my conclusion stands.

Then everyone can go back to their respective theological corners and sulk.

True peace.

Geoff

So you want us to be either athiest or buddhist?

Peace.No, not at all. You should do as you think is best for you - if that is Islam then so be it. That's fine.

From my Atheist's point of view though I think Buddhism is best for humanity.

While I was in Japan I visited many Buddhist Temples that had within them shrines for when Shinto visit. The same was true of the Shinto Shrines, they had places for Buddhists to meditate. That sort of tolerance in not often mirrored in the monotheistic religions.

The Prophet said, "I saw Paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said, "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds. If you are benevolent to one of them throughout the life and if she sees anything (undesirable) in you, she will say, 'I have never had any good from you.' " (Buk 2.161).While I acknowledge differences between men and women and intersex (both sexes). I don't like the notion that many more women will burn in hell because they are emotional.

That to me is asinine. And the notion that its because they didn’t suck up to their husbands properly? Appreciate their husbands properly? How misogynistic can one get?

If truth be told, it is MAN that causes ALL war, MAN that initiates the killing and raping of other people, MAN that leads armies, MAN that are the violent of the two. Usually women just get beaten, raped and murdered. If it were one of the two sexes to fill HELL it would be man for his murderous nature not women for a “perceived” ingratitude.


Again, DH, I don't see any thing resembling enlightenment here. If anything the Qur'an is like living in Bizarro World; where up is down, right is left, slavery is good, killing is justifiable, and women (the gentler, kinder, weaker of two sexes, the caregiver and the mother), THEY are the ones who FILL HELL?!?!? And for a perceived slight towards their husbands?!?!?

Islam is like living in Bizarro World

Like I said, I think if one has to have a religious belief then Buddhism would be best for humanity.

Michael

"Sexual Equality" is an artificial state that can only exist in a modern and stable nation.

Who says it's the "right" thing? It certainly doesn't occur "naturally". Why should we come along and impose things on them?

We should just shut the fuck up. At least marriage there isn't a complete joke. At least they still have some sort of morality left.

'Some sort of morality' in a legal system where people are killed for apostacy and homosexuality?

That's some sort of morality, all right.

Geoff

"Sexual Equality" is an artificial state that can only exist in a modern and stable nation.

Who says it's the "right" thing? It certainly doesn't occur "naturally".

So the only things that are "right" are things that occur naturally?

Why should we come along and impose things on them?

Agreed for the most part but the world today and the cultures in it have much more blending and direct contact than at any previous time in history. So this amongst other things will be an issue that needs dealing with one way or another.

We should just shut the fuck up. At least marriage there isn't a complete joke. At least they still have some sort of morality left.

Depends on your definition of morality.

'Some sort of morality' in a legal system where people are killed for apostacy and homosexuality?

That's some sort of morality, all right.

Geoff

Sure beats everyone having an entourage of lawyers, multiculturalism, 24 hour marriages, a declining middle class population and fake tits.

It certainly doesn't occur "naturally".What do you mean naturally? Like the little lump of parasitic flesh the male turns into on the female anglerfish's arse?

Sorry, but sexaul equality was practiced in the americas long before the europeans ever arrived, just of the top of my head the Navajo Tribe, and around the world, Trobriadd Islanders, Minoan Culture, and Scythian's.

Sure beats everyone having an entourage of lawyers, multiculturalism, 24 hour marriages, a declining middle class population and fake tits.

Well I grant you that no islamic society has no multiculturalism, since anyone behaving too 'multiculturally' is apparently some kind of threat to the islamic state (according to Diamond) and typically gets thrown in jail or shot. I don't see that as a very humanitarian solution, however.

And I warn you that you certainly would see swarms of lawyers outside their usual breeding season - each and every one of which would be hell-bent (so to speak) on 'making sure you stayed out of hell' by forcing you to do as they said, and, if necessary, having you killed to be doubly sure you wouldn't stray. After all, it's better to make a mistake in punishment than a mistake in forgiving! [Mohammed]

As for the temporary marriage thing - actually, there is indeed temporary marriage in Shi'ite islam. It's called muwta, and it's very popular around seminary towns.

http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/muta/

It's also catching on in Pakistan, and the current record-holder seems to be this guy whose wedded bliss lasted a rich, full four hours:

************************************************** *******************************************

Saturday, April 22, 2006
Temporary marriage catches on in Afghanistan
By Shoib Najafizada

In a country where most marriages are for life and all divorces are a scandal, the idea of the contract or temporary marriage is beginning to catch on

TWENTY-NINE-year-old mechanic Payenda Mohammad was married last month in a simple ceremony in this northern Afghanistan town, but the marriage only lasted four hours, which was exactly what he wanted.

“Nobody would give me their daughters to marry because I didn’t have family or money,” says Payenda, who ended up in Iran after his parents and a sister were killed in a bombing raid about 15 years ago.

“I started doing short marriages in Iran,” he says. “When I came back to Mazar-i-Sharif, I continued,” he says. He’s now been married 20 times.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\04\22\story_22-4-2006_pg4_24

************************************************** *******************************************

There's those family values for ya. :p

"I'll love ya forever baby - or at least until our session is done. Whoops, look at the time! Well, the first few minutes were happy ones, weren't they? Let's try to remember those. Stay in touch kid."

I think I'd agree with the Sunnis that this is only for sex, and I'd suggest that everyone read the entire article.

I'm sure, of course, that Diamond, the perfect Shi'ite, has some perfectly rational explanation for why the perfect religion allows a perfect man to get a perfect piece of tail for a couple hours, and then pay her off. I'm sure she would also have a perfect explanation for why that isn't considered prostitution.

And just what's wrong with fake breasts? :bugeye:

Man, I should have a blog.

Geoff

Well I grant you that no islamic society has no multiculturalism, since anyone behaving too 'multiculturally' is apparently some kind of threat to the islamic state (according to Diamond) and typically gets thrown in jail or shot. I don't see that as a very humanitarian solution, however.

Not true. Many Islamic nations include a wide range of native cultures and they get along just fine. You need to some of the major cities in the Muslim world to see the Islamic multiculturalism in action such as Cairo, Alexandria, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Lahore, Riyadh, Damascus, ...etc.


And I warn you that you certainly would see swarms of lawyers outside their usual breeding season - each and every one of which would be hell-bent (so to speak) on 'making sure you stayed out of hell' by forcing you to do as they said, and, if necessary, having you killed to be doubly sure you wouldn't stray. After all, it's better to make a mistake in punishment than a mistake in forgiving! [Mohammed]

You misqoted the hadith. It's better to make a mistake in forgiving, than in punishing.


As for the temporary marriage thing - actually, there is indeed temporary marriage in Shi'ite islam. It's called muwta, and it's very popular around seminary towns.

That's true, Shiat do practice mutaa. For them its a part of their culture and belief. This temporary marriage however still has the same institionalized laws and prohibition regarding regular marriage. It's not similiar at all to living with an unmarried individual outside of wedlock which is dishonorable. The state and people recognize this form of marriage, therefore it is acceptable.


It's also catching on in Pakistan, and the current record-holder seems to be this guy whose wedded bliss lasted a rich, full four hours:


Shiat practice it, it's forbidden to Sunni. If you believe as Shiat believe, why not practice it?


I'm sure, of course, that Diamond, the perfect Shi'ite, has some perfectly rational explanation for why the perfect religion allows a perfect man to get a perfect piece of tail for a couple hours, and then pay her off. I'm sure she would also have a perfect explanation for why that isn't considered prostitution.


What makes you belief that I am Shiat?

It's not prositituion because this type of marriage is acceptable to the state and all of the laws of marriage do apply. I believe there is also a limit to how long you must be married as well.


And just what's wrong with fake breasts? :bugeye:


It's dishonorable and artificial to change the way Allah swt made you, you should accept who you are and not need to change your appearance to become more acceptable to someone else.

Peace.

Not true. Many Islamic nations include a wide range of native cultures and they get along just fine. You need to some of the major cities in the Muslim world to see the Islamic multiculturalism in action such as Cairo, Alexandria, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Lahore, Riyadh, Damascus, ...etc.

Riyadh! she tells me. Oy vay.*

You misqoted the hadith. It's better to make a mistake in forgiving, than in punishing.

You used it to imply that it was better to punish homosexuals that not. Or what was your point in citing it then?

That's true, Shiat do practice mutaa. For them its a part of their culture and belief. This temporary marriage however still has the same institionalized laws and prohibition regarding regular marriage. It's not similiar at all to living with an unmarried individual outside of wedlock which is dishonorable. The state and people recognize this form of marriage, therefore it is acceptable.

And it is little more than over-glorified prostitution, as even the article I cited implies. In short: it's for sex.

Shiat practice it, it's forbidden to Sunni. If you believe as Shiat believe, why not practice it?

See above.

What makes you belief that I am Shiat?

My belief is makes from the fact that you strongly support Iran and seem to think the Ayatollah is so holy that he poops ice cream (presumably, chocolate ice cream, although I imagine a fatwa could be issued to find out what kind for sure). Ayatollah - Shia. You - not shia?

It's not prositituion because this type of marriage is acceptable to the state and all of the laws of marriage do apply. I believe there is also a limit to how long you must be married as well.

Yes - apparently it's four hours. A good long stretch, no doubt. No rose off that bloom, eh? :D It clearly is prostitution, since the reason it's done is for sex, and little more than that. I'm also given to understand that there's money given as well; the cycle of hypocrisy is complete. Beyond that, any 'legal' confirmation is mere semantics. You don't think allah sees into your diamond heart, DH? You think he doesn't know why there is mutah? The writer of the article and the Sunni imam and I all seem to know. Or do you imagine that the standard four-hour marriage encompasses the range of emotion and care that a real one does?

It's dishonorable and artificial to change the way Allah swt made you, you should accept who you are and not need to change your appearance to become more acceptable to someone else.

/sarc
Unless, of course, you're an apostate or a homosexual. Then, you should change a whole lot or else be killed for not changing yourself to become more acceptable to someone else.
/sarc off

Right?

Geoff





* the above comment will be used by another poster with the initials "BF" to "prove" somehow that I am Jewish, as if I would be unable to borrow phrases from any other tongue to use in posting. Mein Gott, that's a-crazy posting.

I give BF's opinion as much weight as I give Bull Flop in the pasture, just look out were you step and your OK.

I give BF's opinion as much weight as I give Bull Flop in the pasture, just look out were you step and your OK.

Well when you read DiamondHeart's post, you better be wearing your cowboy boots, the bullshit gets kind of deep! :D

A Islamic perspective,
In the name of God, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful
Position Paper on "Honor Killings"

Due to recent media attention, the problem of “honor killings” has come under increasing global scrutiny. In various countries throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East and parts of South Asia, women who bring dishonor to their families because of sexual indiscretions are forced to pay a terrible price at the hands of male family members. Attempted murder and other forms of corporal punishment have been reported. The most severe manifestations of punishment affect only a small percentage of women, even though the notion of family honor and shame is extremely important in most communities of the Muslim world. Women from other faith groups may also be subject to similar attitudes from within their own communities in those countries. Clearly, the prevailing view that devalues and belittles women is derived from sociocultural factors that are justified by a distorted and erroneous interpretation of religion, especially of Islam.

Islam recognizes and celebrates the inherent dignity bestowed by God upon all human beings regardless of race, ethnicity, gender or religion. The Qur’an is explicit in its emphasis on the equality of women and men before God:

And their Lord has accepted of them and answered them, “Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, whether male or female, you are members, one of another…” (3:195; see also 33:35)

Individual accountability before God is stressed throughout the Qur’an, beginning with the story of Adam and Eve: as a result of their transgression (committed together and simultaneously) they were banished from Paradise and made to toil on Earth. God chose to forgive them both and so their sin is not inherited by subsequent generations. Similarly, as exemplified in the following verse:

Whoever chooses to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good; and whoever goes astray, goes but astray to his own hurt; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another’s burden (17:15)

It is clear that one individual, no matter how guilty, cannot transfer that guilt to another. So for a woman who does engage in illicit sexual activity (zina), she and she alone bears the consequences as determined by God.

The problem of “honor killings” is not a problem of morality or of ensuring that women maintain their own personal virtue; rather, it is a problem of domination, power and hatred of women who, in these instances, are viewed as nothing more than servants to the family, both physically and symbolically.

Islam is clear on its prohibition of sexual relationships outside of marriage. This prohibition does not distinguish between men and women, even though, in some countries, women are uniformly singled out for punishment of sexual crimes while the men, even rapists, may be treated with impunity. In order for a case to even be brought before a Muslim court, several strict criteria must be met. The most important is that any accusation of illicit sexual behavior must have been seen by four witnesses; and they must have been witness to the act of sexual intercourse itself. Other forms of intimacy do not constitute zina and therefore are not subject to any legal consequences even though they are not appropriate and are considered sinful.

On the other hand, a woman falsely accused of zina has in her support the Qur’an, which spells out harsh consequences for those accusers who are unable to support their allegations with four witnesses. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was known for his clemency, even if the accusations met the criteria, for he recognized the seriousness of the matter. In addition, there is no evidence whatsoever that he condoned any form of retribution that singled out women and he was swift to ensure that those accused of any crime received due process to guarantee justice.

Unfortunately, the legal safeguards to protect women and men from indiscriminate and unlawful enforcement of presumed Islamic injunctions have been forgotten. Indeed, the legal system and law enforcement agencies including police officers and prison guards, have been implicated in the perpetuation of the problem by their willful lenience towards men who have carried out an assault in the name of “honor” and by their abuse and denigration of women who stand accused.

Muslims today must unequivocally reject this distortion of Islam that is used to violate the most basic Islamic rights of human decency, integrity and justice. Unwillingness on the part of the Muslim community to address these issues in a forthright and unapologetic manner is borne out of an inherent distrust of perceived “Western” attempts to taint the image of Islam in the interest of global politics. This is no excuse for us to turn a blind eye to injustices committed against Muslims and others, especially when the perpetrators are members of the same faith.

Confronting the problem of “honor killings” and other crimes that disproportionately affect women requires a change in attitude that pervades all levels of society where such attacks occur. Muslim leaders can provide an important example to their followers by taking an unequivocal stand against behavior that is in direct violation of Islam. In addition, legal reform must occur with the intention to protect the victims and punish the perpetrators, all totally possible within a legitimate Islamic legal framework. Concomitant attention must be paid to meeting basic human needs and solving problems stemming from poverty and illiteracy that are often at the root of disturbing social trends that seek out the most disenfranchised to serve as scapegoats.

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: For God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do. (4:135)

April 1999

[Home] [Publications]

And Pakistan,
Saturday, March 5, 2005

PAKISTANI CHRISTIAN WOMEN SUFFERS SEVERE BEATING FROM MUSLIM HUSBAND; HER FAMILY IS IN HIDING

By Jeremy Reynalds
Special Correspondent for ASSIST News Service

KARACHI, PAKISTAN (ANS) - Mar 5/05 - Some of her bones were broken and her nose, breasts and genitals were bitten because she refused to be converted to the religion of her husband, a Moslem.

Honey’s neighbors moved her to a hospital, bleeding and unconscious, the Pakistan Christian Post (www.pakistanchristianpost.com/newsdetails.php?newsid=567) reported...

THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN NATION ON EARTH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE PERSECUTED.

Yet in most nations where the majority of the population are Muslims, there is systematic government persecution of Christians.

That is because the religous teachers and what they teach is a load of shit.

They are a bunch of aresholes with their brains in their backsides!!!!

For a report on Female Genital Mutilation in Somalia see here:
http://www.middle-east-info.org/league/somalia/hosken.pdf. Try http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/womenchildabuse/ if you have a strong stomach.

For a really interesting site with video clips from Islamic countries, see:
http://www.memritv.org/Favorites.asp. I suggest #1090 - Egyptian Experts on Islamic Religious Law Debate Female Circumcision or #978 - Bahraini Women's Rights Activist Ghada Jamshir Attacks Islamic Clerics for Fatwas Authorizing Sexual Abuse of Children or #796 - Polygamy in Egypt.

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1104

Following are excerpts from an interview with Saudi author Dr. Muhammad Al-'Arifi, which aired on Al-Risala TV on April 6, 2006.

"Therefore, as I said on previous shows, they have organizations for homosexuals, organizations for people who marry animals - she marries a dog, a donkey, and so on... The organizations exist, and strangely enough, they are official. They have websites, and they publish magazines with pictures."

I couldn't find any such websites. Is this guy considered a kook in his country or is he taken seriously?

http://www.memritv.org/Favorites.asp

A great site to judge whether women in current Islamic societies consider themselves equal. Look at some of the subjects I suggested in a previous post, i. e. polygamy and female circumcision are particularly telling.

http://www.memritv.org/Favorites.asp

A great site to judge whether women in current Islamic societies consider themselves equal. Look at some of the subjects I suggested in a previous post, i. e. polygamy and female circumcision are particularly telling.
are you being serious, are is this comment sarcastic??!!??

What we have to differeniate with all of this is women being equal in islam or countries which call themselves islamically run, or have a majority islamic population.

Is it society that is doing this or is it religion?

Hi, Zakariya, Salam my friend, Many times the the society uses it interpretation of religeous doctrine to enforce wierd practices, part of the problem about Islam is that they present the realigeon as a governing system mixed with religeon mixed with life style so the self interprtation of religeous doctrine is used to subjugate the pouplation to their will.

are you being serious, are is this comment sarcastic??!!??

I'm not being sarcastic. View the videos. They are current TV from Islamic countries.

........ so the self interprtation of religeous doctrine is used to subjugate the pouplation to their will.

Hello Buffalo,

I hope all is well with you.

I totally agree with you on this.

Peace

I'm not being sarcastic. View the videos. They are current TV from Islamic countries.
Hello Dave,

Thank you for the link, i have loooked at some of the videos with great interest.

However Memri does not really come out with anything New apart from the fact that they have a Zakawi video clip which was interesting as thier are rumours around that he is in fact a myth as no one has seen him, and his persona is used as a mechnism to fight the war. Nevertheless interesting though.

I am not sure what we can learn from these clips, how do we know that some are not frabicated and falseified!! Not saying they are but i dont know!

Anyway we all know that some crackpot people from the Mid-east have these fucked up ideas which do not represent islam.

What do you think Dave?
Take care

Glade to hear from you again, May all be well with you and your family, I would be intrested in knowing were in the world you are from? you are a friend and I would like to know more about you.

Do you really think all those videos on MEMRI.ORG are falsified? Who do you think made the video in which a three year old Egyptian girl describes Jews as pigs and monkeys?? (The Muslim Woman Magazine: Hosted by Doaa 'Amer
May 7, 2002 - (Aired from Egypt))

The inequality of women in Islam is well documented, as it is in Judaism/Christianity. However, at least the filthy Jews and Christians (Muslim description) have reformed their society to equalize women. Christians have embraced the New Testament of the Bible. Atheists have passed equality laws in their governments. Muslims memorize the Quran and Hadith to continue the subjugation women.

I find it amusing when Muslims make weak excuses for Islamic cruelty toward women by ascribing that cruelty to "ethnic traditions" or "cultural practices." The inequality of women is very well documented in the Hadith and Quran. To attempt to shift the blame for the beatings and genital mutilation of women in Islam acknowledges that contemporary Muslims KNOW that these practices, and many more, are simply inhuman.


Example:http://debate.domini.org/newton/womeng.html#def

WOMEN ARE DEFICIENT IN INTELLIGENCE AND RELIGION

The intellectual and religious deficiencies of women are stated in the following Hadith found in Sahih al-Bukhari which is considered by Muslim scholars to be "The most authentic book after the Book of Allah (ie. the Qur'an)":[13]


"Allah's Apostle once said to a group of women : 'I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.' The women asked: 'O Allah's Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?' He said: 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency of your intelligence' ... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency in your religion.'"[14]

WOMEN MAY BE BEATEN:
The Qur'an states:

"Righteous women are therefore obedient, ... And those you fear may be rebellious (nushuz) admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them."[55]
Some translators add the word lightly after 'beat them'[56] in Q. 4:34. Others like Mohammed Pickthall and Rodwell translate the word 'edrebouhon - beat them' as 'scourge them'

MEN MAY MARRY UP TO FOUR FREE WOMEN AND HAVE SEX WITH AN UNLIMITED NUMBER OF SLAVE GIRLS

A provision is made for men to marry more than one woman as follows:


"If you fear you can not treat orphans (girls) with fairness, then you may marry other women who seem good to you: two, three or four of them. But if you fear that you can not maintain equality among them, marry only one or any slave girls you may own. This will make it easier for you to avoid injustice."[72]

Concerning the provision for having sex with slave girls, found in the last part of the above Qur'anic verse, Razi said:


"God made the provision of having sex with many slave girls as easy as marrying one free woman. Besides, the responsibilities and provisions of the slave girls are lighter than those of the dowers, no matter (never mind) if you have a few of them or many, no matter if you were fair in apportioning your nights amongst them or not, no matter whether you completed the sexual act or not."[88]
The commentator Qortobi sees in that verse (Q. 4:3) that slave girls used as such by the free Muslim man


"have neither sexual rights, nor financial rights. For God made the 'one free woman' and the 'slave girls you may own' of the same category. The man however owes the slave girls the appropriate rights of ownership, and the kindness that befits slaves."[89]

MEN IN PARADISE WILL ENJOY SEX WITH PERPETUALLY EXQUISITE VIRGIN WOMEN.

Muslim men are entitled to several wives in this life. In Paradise, they are further rewarded with additional women - perfect in beauty.

Mu'az reported from the messenger of Allah who said:


"A woman does not give trouble to her husband in this world but his wife of the pure-eyed virgin ones [huris] does not say to her: 'Do not give him trouble. May Allah destroy you, He is only a passing guest with you and it is very near that he will soon leave you to come to us'."[95]
The editor of Mishkat wrote in a footnote to that tradition:


"No woman should give trouble and anxiety to her husband. She is to give him ease and comfort in the household. If she acts otherwise, she will not be able to be his mate in Paradise. There the pure-eyed virgin girls will be his consorts."
For the Qur'an promises godfearing men, beautiful women in Paradise. The following are their descriptions:


"Lo! those [men] who kept their duty will be in a place secure amid gardens and water springs, attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another. Even so (it will be). And We shall wed them unto [huris] fair ones with wide, lovely eyes."[96]
"Therein maidens restraining their glances, untouched before them by any man or jinn .....lovely as rubies, beautiful as coral"[97]

"The fair, the beautiful ones [huris]... With large dark eyeballs, kept close in their pavilions"[98]

"Surely for the godfearing awaits a place of security, gardens and vineyards, and maidens of swelling breasts (Kawa'eb)[99], like of age, and a cup overflowing."[100]

From this, it can be seen that the godfearing shall be 'wedded' to women in Paradise. Those women will not look at any one else, except their husbands. They will be restrained in their pavilions. Those women in Paradise will be fair; not like the dark skinned ones of Arabia. Their beauty will be perfect. Their eyes are wide and large, and their breasts are "Kawa'eb" -"swelling and firm, not sagging."[101]

MAN HAS THE RIGHT TO PREVENT HIS WIFE FROM CARING FOR HER CHILD FROM A PREVIOUS MARRIAGE

The implications of the sexual rights secured by the payment of this dowry extend to affect children of a previous marriage:


"The husband has the right to prevent his wife from looking after and breast feeding her baby, from her previous husband, (if she was living in the husband's house), because that will make her too busy to attend to the husband, and it will affect her beauty and cleanliness, all these are the rights of the husband alone."[133] (Hanafites)

MAN HAS THE RIGHT TO REFUSE HIS WIFE'S DAILY MAINTENANCE

In Islam "marriage does not produce any community of property between husband and wife."[134] Hence the wife must rely on the support of her husband daily. However, there are numerous grounds on which the husband can refuse supporting his wife as the following indicates:

The Hanafites said :

'The support of the woman (nafaqa) is obligatory on the man in return for the woman being locked up in the man's house, and for being exclusively his.[135]
"The Hanafites said : 'There is no support for the woman if she is -
(1) Rebellious (Nashiz) that is the woman who goes outside the house of the husband without his permission and without a justifiable reason, or refuses surrendering herself to him so she does not enter his house. But if she refuses to have sex with him (even though that is unlawful) that refusal is not a reason for stopping her support because the qualifying reason for the support does exist and that is her being locked up in his house.
(2) The renegade woman.
(3) The woman who obeys the husband's son or his father or kiss either with lust or any thing that might put her relation with her husband on a prohibited degree.
(4) The woman whose marriage contract is imperfect, and the woman who had sex with someone by mistake, the man thinking she was his wife.
(5) The wife who is too young to have sex. ["The Islamic law knows no minimum age for a legal marriage.[136]]
(6) The wife who is imprisoned, even if she is innocent, if he can not have access to her (as a wife).
(7) The sick wife who, due to severe illness, did not move after the ceremony to the husband's house, because she did not surrender herself to the husband.
(8) The wife who was raped by another man.
(9) The wife who goes to perform pilgrimage ... there is no support for her because she is not locked up."[137]


The followers of Imam Shafi'i said: "The conditions of the man's maintenance for the woman are as follows:
First, she must avail herself to him by offering herself to him, such as saying to him 'I am surrendering myself to you'. The important thing is that she must notify him in advance that she is ready for his meeting with her, and of his entrance upon her as he wishes. If she does not notify him that she is ready, she has no right of maintenance, even if she does not refuse his request to meet with her. So maintenance is conditional upon the woman's notification to her husband that she is ready for his meeting any time he wishes, and that she must avail him of herself anytime he wishes. So if she works during the day time, and he cannot meet with her, her maintenance would be denied.
Secondly, she must be capable of having sexual intercourse. If she was a small girl, that cannot cope with intercourse, she is not entitled to the maintenance.
Thirdly, she must not be rebellious, that is, disobeying her husband, which can take the form of preventing him from enjoying her by refusing his touch and his kisses and refusing to have sex. If she denies him any of the above, her maintenance will be cancelled for that day, because maintenance is due day by day. ... and the rebelliousness of one day cancels his provision for clothing her for a whole season."[138]

The followers of Imam Malik said: "The condition for the man's maintenance to the woman is that she should avail herself to the man for sexual intercourse, so that if he requested it from her she would not refuse. Otherwise she would have no right to the maintenance."[139]

"The followers of Imam Ibn Hanbal said, ' The wife's daily maintenance is due upon the husband if the wife surrenders herself to her husband completely ... for the daily maintenance is given to the woman in return for the husband's sexual enjoyment, so when the wife surrenders herself her daily maintenance is obligatory as long as she had reached nine years old ... so if she was well physically and surrendered herself for the enjoyment of the husband but without sexual intercourse, she has no right for the daily maintenance. So if the wife refuses to surrender herself so that the husband might have sex with her, her daily maintenance is denied, so if she then has a problem that prevents her from having sex with her husband, but surrenders herself to her husband after that, her daily maintenance is not given to her as long as she is sick, as a punishment for her because she refused to surrender to her husband when she was well."[140]

Do you really think all those videos on MEMRI.ORG are falsified? Who do you think made the video in which a three year old Egyptian girl describes Jews as pigs and monkeys?? (The Muslim Woman Magazine: Hosted by Doaa 'Amer
May 7, 2002 - (Aired from Egypt))

[140]
Dave
thank you for your post reply.

I never said i think they were ALL falsified, I said, how do you know that some are not falsified.

Please read my post, espicially if you want me to read your Internet uplift

Why would any of the posts on MEMRI.ORG be false? I believe non of them are false. They are what they are; draw your own conclusion.

The equality of women in Islam is non-existent. Islam does have laws protecting women to some extent, which was an advance for them 1,400 years ago. However, those laws 'protecting' women are similar to those laws 'protecting' People of the Book (Jews and Christians). Both women and People of the Book are held as second class citizens within Islamic society.

To be a second class citizen is better, I suppose, than being an absolute slave in Islamic society. I abhor any society which has second class citizens and slaves as normal classes within it; this is truly evil. This is one of the reasons I fight to inf