Soon enough China will be the economic engine of the world. The US will (as it is now) going to depend on China for her goods, and other things that make the world go round. The Chinese with their huge market and their huge employment base has no challengers apart from India. The Chinese are doing the US a short term favour and long term harm. The Chinese are benefiting from HUGE influxes of Investment from all corners, USA, EU, Japan, etc. But the US remains the single most important investor and the single most important customer for Chinese goods. What do the Chinese do for the US? The Chinese buy lots of US bonds that finance wars like Afghanistan and Iraq and other such things, along with Japan, Hong Kong and Taiwan. The Chinese are second only to Japan in terms of FOREX:

2002:

Japan- $461 billion
China - $291 billion
+ Hong Kong- $111 billion
Taiwan- $161 billion

That is huge sway on the international markets, and basically the US is financed by the Asians. The Chinese have caused quite a stir as well with the Americans because of the cheap price of Chinese goods. The Chinese Yuan is believed to be massively undervalued, and thus being "unfairly" competitive (which strikes me as ironic in a globalized world :confused: ). The Chinese have expanded their trade with the west by leaps and bounds...just in the past two years:

Exports and Imports to regions

2000:

USA & Canada-55,320,26,126
EU-38,230,30,847
Japan- 41,654,41,512

2002:

USA & Canada-116,739,28,692
EU-58,230,37,179
Japan- 53,058,46,573

There is no denying that the Chinese have increased trade to levels never seen before in growth. The US essentially had a $88 billion deficit against the Chinese. Their real GDP has also increased by leaps and bounds:

1992-418,181,000,000
1995-700,278,000,000
2002- 1,200,000,000,000

This is largely financed by us here in the west basically having no option but to buy Chinese goods, Chinese FDI is the key to this growth:

FDI (millions) Inward Flow Stock

1992-11,156, 40,284
1995-35,849 ,137,435
2000-40,772 ,348,346
2002- 52,700 ,447,892

What does this mean? Jobs are leaving the US and other countries to find much cheaper labour in the Chinese employment market. For the US this means that Globalization will begin its downward trend for the normal US worker. Every Industry in the US is affected; textiles to hi-tech jobs are flooding out of the US. With that so are wages they are going down, adjusted for inflation the average American makes less then he did in 1975, and it's not improving. This downward trend for nations like China, India, and Brazil are upward trends. Eventually the two worlds will meet. Are you ready if not...then die; the capitalist world has begun its final phase.

Ok... If America is really as evil as people say we are then we have already begun construction of a Genetically Modified rice blight, a contraceptive bomb, and a way to contaminate their major watersheads.

If we want to piss them off, all we have to do is blow up the Three Gorges Dam. Given a choice between the U.S and China I'll always pick the U.S, for many obvious reasons--much better working conditions and a republican government, first and foremost. If China adopts these things and starts to beat the U.S at its own game of being relatively good to its own people, then I may start taking Mandarin lessons.

Who cares? May I ask what relevance does her human rights have to do with her economic success. The lack of adequate rights has made China oh so popular among the TNC's. The Chinese are exploiting their strength which is in her numbers. Now the US will not attack the Chinese so get that out of your head. The US can't afford to have the Chinese at war, your economy will suffer because of it. America is actually becoming dependant on the Chinese, and her goodwill. For the Chinese there are undoubtly issues, the Urbanization push, increasing pollution, a strain of resources, a growing wealth gap, a rich East and a underdeveloped west. The interesting things happen over oil and China will begin to demand more and more of the share of the world's oil, and this could change geo-politics in the Middle East most vividedly. China will begin very soon to sway nations that are outcasts by the US, namely Iran. Then it will begin to sway important oil producing nations. It's only a matter of time, the world's factory needs oil.

maybe some good comes out of china's economical advancement, like, as the standard of living goes up, wages goes up, so they have to start outsourcing the simple work to north korea dragging it out of isolation(but that is just wishfull thinking)

Also, if the standard of living goes up, they cannot keep the value of their currency undervalued???, so at some moment you can expect a more balanced situation.

The economical relation of china and america is like two escaped convicts who do not really like eachother but are handcuffed:p

But as soon as china have developed here internal markets sufficiently I expect she might try break the cuffs...

And yes, the 3 gorges dam is a wet dream for terrorists, wouldn't be ez but the damage would be tremendous

For the Chinese, and for corporations. The average American will actually suffer from greater Chinese success. It's an eventuality that the Chinese economy in terms of PPP will exceed that of the US. Already she is 6/11 that of the US, and in 10-15 years with her growth rates she may as well exceed the US and that signals the beginning of the end of US economic dominance. The international corporations that once tailored to the US market will instead tailor to the Chinese market. Once Chinese real GDP exceeds that of the US then it’s really over, but that will take longer up to 20- 25 years in my estimation.

so they have to start outsourcing the simple work to north korea dragging it out of isolation(but that is just wishfull thinking)


Actually not really, the North Koreans are begging for investment in her new "special economic zones", the South Koreans are building an industrial park in North Korea, and oddly enough North Korean exports are actually increasing and so is her GDP! But really it's still a moribund economy without western investment.

Also, if the standard of living goes up, they cannot keep the value of their currency undervalued???, so at some moment you can expect a more balanced situation.

Ehm...maybe...have to think about it.

But as soon as china have developed here internal markets sufficiently I expect she might try break the cuffs...


This could be a possibility but China will suffer, the US will still be a major market for Chinese goods. It's in China's best interest to keep US-Sino relations on the up and up.

EVerybody talks about china monolith casting shadow over the washington monument, but what about Europe ???

Do we suffer as well / as much from China success ?

EVerybody talks about china monolith casting shadow over the washington monument, but what about Europe ???


Not as badly, the Europeans are kindof lucky that they have Eastern Europe where there is lower wages, and lax employment laws. But with many nations now joining EU that edge will quickly lose it's gusto. The Europeans I think the Germans most of all are exposed to the Chinese hegemon, but for one country the US suffers most.

Edit: Just some updated figures on China:

GDP: $1.4 trillion (2004)
GDP growth: 8.2%

Steel production (Tonnage):
2001:150.9
2002:181.6
China is first in the world is steel production

USA:

2001:90.1
2002:92.2

The US is 3rd.

Whats the problem here?
America has nothing to complain about. This is just the nature of the market. So America has a period of poverty unemployment and decline. Big deal. If you wanna gamble on capitalism you can't complain when the dice roll bad.
As for the American standard of living...
It might do them all some good to spend a while in abject poverty. Make them all a little more empathic if you know what I mean. Most of the population of places like India live below the poverty line and they still manage to maintain a reasonably democratic nation state. They got nukes too!
See. Poverty ain't the end of the world.
I do have one question though.
Who exactly is moving American jobs overseas?
It wouldn't be American companies acting on behalf of American shareholders would it?

Take care and I promise to send you money when your all on welfare.
Dee Cee

I agree DC America has been speaking the virtues of Capitalism, and was actively defending it in the Cold War, and just like Capitalism it's biting her in the ass. The US will have a down turn in wages and possibly living standards, Americans will begin to see that when deflation hits the US. At first the American public will think its pretty good, because the cost of living and other things go down, but they usually wouldn't realize until it was too late that so does their wages. Japan already had a bout with deflation, Germany, and even the US were fearing deflation in 2002-3. But I think you have the wrong idea about declining living standards. The American public will never experience the abject poverty of Africa or India. But eventually (it may take decades) but the two worlds will eventually meet, a middle ground. The question is how will that middle ground look like?

Who exactly is moving American jobs overseas?


Here are a list of the major US corporations that are exporting jobs and resources overseas:

General Electric
Exxonmobil Corporation
Ford Motor Company
General Motors
ChevronTexaco Corp.
IBM
Wal-Mart Stores
DaimlerChrysler AG
AES Corporation Electricity
Conoco Inc.
Philip Morris Companies Inc
Pfizer Inc
Motorola Inc
Texas Utilities Company Electricity
Procter & Gamble
Coca-Cola Company
Hewlett-Packard
NTL Incorporated
Du Pont (E.I.) De Nemours
Dow Chemical Company
McDonald's Corporation
Johnson & Johnson
Merck & Co
Amerada Hess Corporation
Abbott Laboratories
Verizon Communications
Alcoa Metal
Mirant Corp. Electricity
International Paper Company

Those are really the biggest American companies and that is literally only the tip of the iceberg. Essentially the US has $1.5 trillion worth of it's economy overseas.

It wouldn't be American companies acting on behalf of American shareholders would it?


American companies, these companies have gotten rid of the vestige of nationalism. They are out there for the pure pursuit of profit no matter who it hurts. I.e. Enron...;)