View Full Version : The Chinese Hegemon?


nico
05-27-03, 03:46 PM
Is it really possible, that China could totally replace the US as the world's premier, economic, military, and polictical force? With a population of 1.2 billion, with a economy that grows at a rate of 8+% per annum. A increasing consumerist society and a stanch communist party is she on the cusp of becoming the world's most powerful state?

Reason as to why?

China has always in her history been one step ahead of the rest of the world. It wasn't until the rape of China in the late 1800's that China began her slow and painful decline. By 1912 the Qing empire had collapsed due to general anger on the way the west had controlled the country. At her height pre-1840 China had a vast empire rivaling any in the world. From the Pamirs in Central Asia to the Himalaya's in the south, the Mongolians plains in the north, Tuva in modern day Russia, the Maritime territory which is now mostly the Primoskye region in E.Russia. But the British through her un-abashed imperialism had in two wars degraded China into a second rate power. In 1895 the Japanese took important off shore islands and estbalished a shpere of influence in Fujian. 1899 was a turning point the empires last stand the Boxer rebellion, which they had lost. By 1911 Most of China was really under European, and Japanese control. By 1924 after the fall of the empire China had really been reduced to half her former size, the Tannu-Tuva region gone "independant" and became communist, Outer Mongolia was now a "independant" communist state, E.Turkestan became pseudo-independant, and Tibet. Macau, Hong Kong, Tsingao, and Port Arthur were under direct foreign control . In 1927 the nationalists (Kumingtang) took over China and a era of conflict btwn the communists and Nationalists began .

The low points:

By 1931 Manchuria was invaded only to degrade China further, 1932 Jehol, and 1937 the second Sino-Japanese war had began. By 1942 China had reached a low point. And Japan was never really routed out of China in 1945. With 11 million dead civies in the war, all of Asia began to make a dramatic shift in ideology. Communism.

The rebirth:

The Chinese country was dis-organized by a inept leadership under the Nationalists. They began a civial war again in 1945, and by 1949 the Nationalist's had been totally routed out of power. With them the Nationalist's took most the countries wealth to the island fortress known as Taiwan (Formosa). With new leadership the Chinese had to start anew. With their leader Mao Ze-tung the Chinese began to build a "paradise". By 1957 Mao decided that China had to beat the UK in steel production in 5 years! We all know the toll, 30 million dead, forests destroyed and the steel was brittle. After 5 years of free economy in China the Cultural revoultion began in 1967 to destroy any idea of anti-communism. It wasn't until Mao's death in 1976 that China really began to experiance the growth nesscary to change the world forever.

The change!!!

After Mao had died and the mourning period was overcome, the Chinese communist party realized that... Marxist- Leninsim wasn't working. China now being allied in essence with the US and the most powerful alliance in more than a quarter century the Chinese began to see the economic morass that the USSR was in. After 70 years of Central Planning, and the massive amounts of capital poured into the military-industrial complex in the USSR, Deng Xiaoping realized something had to happen. The West was only to eager to open up China, a 1 billion people market. China opened up, and the new government realized that the economy came first. By the early 80's Special economic zones were set up. With that wages went up, growth shocked everyone, and the once rural China was making a fateful shift to the cities. But the State Organized factories and industry fail and the Chinese government began a slow process of closing them. Meanwhile the USSR was crumbling, did the bastion of communism die?

Le nuveau International

China had by 1989 become a powerhouse, growing at up to 20% in the early 80's to the low double digits into the high single ones by the time Gorbachev came to China. Gorbachev came at a time of great social mallaise, the new economic growth made the population want more political freedom. As we all know the Televised Massacre at Tiananmen Square gave China a still communist feel to the government. But countries weren't eager to slap on sanctions on the world's fastest gorwing economy. Gorbachev went to China to see a fellow communist state was doing so well? Timing and good market planning was the key to China's economic success. Another reason was that most of China's population wasn't factory workers never mind a urbanite, so growth was possible. By Jan.1 1992 the long time enemy of the Chinese was dead the USSR legally ceased to exist. And the new communism began.

The last 10 years

China still was growing at very high growth rates, 8%. In 1991 China's GDP was $418 billion, by 2002 it was a amazing $6 trillion. Becoming the world's second largest economy. China in the last ten years realized that the west was largely closed in terms of military hardware. So where else to buy good cheap arms than the fmr. USSR. China also began to re-militarize. She in 1997 even showed her muscles in the Formosa straights, and again in the 2001 election in Taiwan. The Chinese have also began a ambitious plan to open up the interior of the country by using internal waterways and the most ambitious dam being the massive Three gorges dam, which would provide 1/9 of China's energy. The Chinese have been in recent times have been a little less successful with the SARS scare being hidden for months. The communist party shows that she is still same ole same ole when it comes to the politics of the country.

The future

In the next 15 years China will excede the US in terms of GDP, that dosen't mean she will be as powerful. But China is quickly becoming so affluent that cars are replacing bikes in Beijing, Shanghai, etc. Just look at the Crude oil use in China since 1980:

1980:1,765 million barrels a day.
1990: 2,380
2001:4,975

Only to increase, China is already begining to comtemplate moving into Burma. China will not open up policitcally and they will begin to replace the US influence in the Arab world. The Chinese will become so powerful by 2050 that Taiwan would suffer economicly when most of her semi-conductors would be going to China! Relations with the US will become strained but not close to the point of the USSR and the USA. So is China going to replace the American hegemon, or will it be yet another cold war?

justiceusa
05-27-03, 06:57 PM
"or will it be yet another cold war."
________________________________________________

Whether or not it becomes another cold war depends on leadership, both ours and theirs.

I see China as having a tremendous capacity to increase its industrial production.

In another thread were I argued the potential of China, someone remined me that China is where the USA was in the 1960's. Thats true China is now the worlds largest steel producer and in the 1960's the USA was.

It will not take china 40 years to catch up. They are gaining rapidly. It, of course, took the USA 40 years to get from 1960's technology to that of 2003, however China has the advantage of being able to buy ready made technology and we sell it to them willingly.

Much of their industrial technology arrives pre-packaged in the factories that American firms build in China.

Their greatest hinderance will be social, not industrial or technological.

nico
05-27-03, 07:44 PM
I see China as having a tremendous capacity to increase its industrial production.

Do the math:

China:
GDP:
purchasing power parity - $6 trillion (2002 est.)

GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 18%
industry: 49%
services: 33% (2001 est.)

= $2.9 trillion per annum. (Industry)

USA
GDP:
purchasing power parity - $10.082 trillion (2001 est.)

GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 2%
industry: 18%
services: 80% (2001 est.)

=$1.814 trillion (Industry)

The shift from US, and even Mexican jobs are going to China. It's cheaper there. The government has to offer free and good education, free healthcare, and Wages are dirt cheap, and the workers will never run out. Neither will world demand. The US is risking itself in the long term by investing so heavily in China to the point that China will have enormus sway in Washington D.C

someone remined me that China is where the USA was in the 1960's. Thats true China is now the worlds largest steel producer and in the 1960's the USA was.

Steel in my view is not a indicator of success, remember the USSR was a huge steel producer. It feel apart at the seems, what steel should be looked at is it's quality, who's buying, and most importantly how much of it is used domesticly. Now what I consider as a true economic indicator is oil consumption. As I showed China's has grown quite healthy. The 60's thing is a good way to look at it, but the US had dealt with a enemy that spurred growth the USSR.

Their greatest hinderance will be social, not industrial or technological.

This is true, some big problem facing China is pollution, the Huang He is drying up, the crush that the cities will experiance, the problem of the communist party.

Michael
05-27-03, 09:15 PM
Chinese dominance? People thought the same of Japan in the 1980s. And to some extend that is true.

Militarily: The militarily dominance of America in Asia would go away as soon as people in Asia gave America the boot. The Philippines of course did this. I wish the rest would as well. Starting with Japan. I hope China becomes a military power. Although what good it does I’m not sure? Now that we (humans) can blow the whole thing up it becomes rather mute. I would have loved to see the how the Chinese would have dealt with Iraq. Believe me when they need oil (and they will) and they have the power then China will act the same as the USA and insure they can get it or that it isn’t threatened. All of my Chinese friends agreed with the GWII war and couldn't understand why I didn't.

Economic: America took this off England once then of course Japan took this off America once. Either way it doesn’t matter. International corporations have become more Hegemony than their host countries. China really doesn’t have a name brand yet (which is very important) but given time I’m sure they will have their BMW Sony IBM Starbucks etc… Right now they seem to be playing the role of sweatshop worker rather than owner. In the future this won’t be the case - - maybe Russia will work for the Chinese or maybe Americans will? Either way they’ll eventually become lazy like the English did the Americans did and the Japanese have. The CEO of Sony was asked why he moved his PS2 plant from Japan to China. His reply was the Japanese don’t work hard enough. Funny huh – from a culture that has a single word that means "worked to the point of death" :)

Political: This is perhaps the most interesting to me. China will probably become democratic which is, to some extend, just an extension of the English culture like America or Singapore. So to become hegemonic China will adopt English Political memes.
:)
Social: I love some of the Chinese social views. Especially those on religion! I would love it if they could spread and become Hegemonic! Some may and some may not. I made some great congee with sulfur preserved duck eggs the other day. You gotta love that stuff! The yoke is black! Or green tea ice cream - yum! There are over 80,000 chinese charaters but if you learn about 2500 you'll be good for 98% of what you read. When Japan become hegegonic economically I didn't see people rushing out to learn how to read hiragana, katakana and kanji. Unfortunately it'll take 1000's of years and then a world social hegemony - I think anyway!

All in All, I doubt Chinese world hegemony (all of the above) will be in our generation or more likely never. Of course it depends on what you mean by hegemony. Buddha’s Tears (my favorite green tea) well then China is Hegemony. Fresh water – well that’ll be the Great Lakes in Michigan/Canada (1/5 of the worlds total fresh water) How about Electronics – no one really. Flat screen – maybe Sony?

Jerrek
05-27-03, 09:18 PM
*cough* GDP per capita

justiceusa
05-27-03, 10:43 PM
"Steel is not a indicator of success"
__________________________________________________

Steel production is an absolute necessity for a military to be successful at anything.

Vortexx
05-28-03, 06:18 AM
Maybe they will not rule the world, but colonize the moon instead and breed like rabbits until they populate the entire solarsystem and finally get rid of the competition by nuking the irrelevant earth wich they no longer need to survive?

SG-N
05-28-03, 07:39 AM
That's the biggest country with a big growth and every country is looking for economic relations with it. So my answer is "yes".

Carnuth
05-28-03, 08:48 AM
oh cmon theyve had the biggest population for centuries if not millenia and theyve had technological superiority way before the europeans. I guess the reason they wont become a hegemony(i hope i dont swallow my words, id hate to get a chinese/english dictionary ;) ) has something to do with their belief that China is the center of the universe, the middle country etc, they dont really have a need to become a hegemony, its prevented them from becoming one before, like back when the Chinese had a massive fleet, bigger than euro's combined, since then though, theyve developed a tendency to turn inward instead of outward.

SG-N
05-28-03, 09:03 AM
They are/will be an hegemon... but unlike USA or other countries before, they don't need to show it to the world. That's a different culture.

nico
05-28-03, 11:38 AM
*cough* GDP per capita

Yes about that, China GDP per capita was a meagre $370, now it's $4,600. So that's not a ba growth, what is more important than that is trade:

1991:

Exports: $62.1 billion
Imports: $53.4 billion

2002:

Exports:
$312.8 billion
Imports:
$268.6 billion

Also the FDI of $51 billion last year China, and 1 billion a month in the Pearl Delta alone China is boun to replace the American Ohio valley.

Steel production is an absolute necessity for a military to be successful at anything.

China right now doesn't really build any weapons that are worth the cost. She has to import her weapons from Russia. I don't see China being a agressive,expansionist state it's not in their culture. What is most important for China's military is hi-tech toys and much better training. Anyways steel is a inicator of industrial prowless, but it is not as important as it was. Back in the days when the Germans, and the Soviets were a threat it worked but we lack that major security threat. Now China needs a specialized military, ready to combat the scourge that is terrorism and independance movements. The wars of the future (amoung nation-states) are going to be economic and hi-tech. The battle ground will be who holds the most sway with smaller nations. (imperialism)

justiceusa
05-28-03, 02:02 PM
"The wars of the future (among nation states) are going to be economic and high tech."
_________________________________________________

Economic and high tech war is here and now. Look at Iraq, we imposed economic sanctions then invaded with high tech.

_______________________________________________
"The battle ground will be he who holds the most sway with small nations."
______________________________________________

We are holding sway in Iraq with armored vehicles made of steel.
The common soldier will never be replaced in this millenium. To control a country it first must be occupied.

nico
05-28-03, 02:32 PM
The future wars aren't going to be huge matches like WWII, or the war in Iraq even. Those wars are really just distractions, what I meant was wars btwn the superpowers. The wars of the future are going to play on "who has more of the market share" very capitialist. We will a increase in imperialism, and economic blocs. i.e. NAFTA,FTAA,ASEAN,EU,etc. Hi tech will be hacking, the NK's have a entire hacking division of their spy forces, since the internet is non-existant in NK they are spread all over the world at a time of war. I wouldn't be surprised that China would create such a system. Since the Chinese have so many overseas the intelluctual wealth, as well as the liquid is there.

We are holding sway in Iraq with armored vehicles made of steel.
The common soldier will never be replaced in this millenium. To control a country it first must be occupied.

Justice your thinking about the normal war, the sway of force. No what I am saying is the sway of the economy. China will target economies that she knows is vital to her security, and dominate their exports and imports as much as possible. So if the country wants to divert from Chinese policy some very bad things could happen to their ecoonmy. Imperialism.

justiceusa
05-28-03, 02:54 PM
OK I understand ,I guess I am a little slow today:)