View Full Version : The Case for Dishonesty


Satyr
10-09-05, 05:57 PM
1

I often ask myself, as I once did on that fall day when I was but nineteen and carrying an overstuffed duffle-bag across a desolate border-town’s square, wearing my army-best and on my way to my new unit: “What the hell am I doing here?!”
It is a question that still baffles me with its need for an answer but also entertains me with its resistance to any answer at all.
It is this query, with its literal and rhetorical applicability, which not only troubles me in those moments of existential angst but also vents my frustrations when I find myself in those strange environments, life sometimes leads me into, in her own mysterious way.
“Life is what happens to you while you are making other plans.” John Lennon said, and I have become painfully aware of that fact.

The mind, that great planner, struggles to keep up with conditions and to encapsulate them within some general tenants that will be able to predict their outcomes; a mind very much in servitude and imprisoned within a physical cell that both contains it and preserves it, enables it and constricts it, connects it and isolates it, all at the same time; a mind wanting to become master of its own destiny and ruler over its own small piece of existence.

What are we, if not self-contained infinity, a conglomeration of insistence trying to attain full consciousness?
An admittedly, still very primitive consciousness condemned to solitude and in search out of its isolation.
A distance separates us, not only from the infinite possibility of the other, but also from the dark abyss of the self.
We are just as surprised by an inner world, pulling us back into our singularity, as we are by an outer one, pushing us forth into multiplicity.

Science, that tentacle of human reason, has attentively approached the outer and inner frontiers of understanding, and now resorts to poetics to fill in the gaps of its comprehension, and philosophy, wisdom’s well, struggles against rampant scepticism and nihilistic despair, where all “truth” is trapped in a web of humble perspectivism and uncertainty.

In the incomplete awareness of essence we are simultaneously faced with an accompanying emptiness, a vast gradation of desolate spaces dancing with time - a priori synthesis or not - to create matter out of nothing at all; elementary particles miraculously springing out of a vacuum in a vast sea of vagueness constructing unities that appear substantial but are really not in the sense that we perceive them to be.
In that dance between time and space, the slowest dancer, in relation to the subject, is interpreted, by the senses, as being solid and substantive, the quickest one is perceived as ethereal, liquid or airy in its fleetness, and the mind, as both a necessity and a victim of time, fights on behalf of ordered space and against temporal change, trying to arrest the struggle, congeal it into a state of inertness, solidify it and make it knowable, timeless… perfect.

In a similar manner we are confused by inner forces creating the impression of division while at the same time exposing the absurdity of individuation altogether.

A new secret confounds us now and we paint over it, like a blank canvas, using the subtle hue of symbolism and insinuation, and metaphor is reluctantly recruited to define what language, or the intellect it mirrors, cannot.

We now sense a commonality, hidden from us by the shroud of sensual reality, an underlying unity, a common ancestry we want to claim as our own and hope to return to someday…..some way.
We feel our participation within a greater mystery and we are soothed by its promise and comforted by its possibility.

But is this intuitive evaluation a subconscious memory, a faint connection to the Self, to the Will, to God, to what Wayne Dyer calls “Intention”, or is it a way the mind saves itself from the discomforts of lucidity?

One cannot offer a definite answer, and that’s the reassuring point, isn’t it?
All we can say is that this illusion of “self” struggles to expand, to go beyond itself, to transcend by breaking free of flesh and all that binds it to its transience, and to join a something or a someone else, to return to a source, if possible, or, at the very least, establish some form of link to a larger whole.
{Whether this drive is a result of a real intuitive understanding or of some deep seated insecurity is irrelevant for the purposes of this thesis and so will not be explored any further here.}

Creation and Procreation are such instances of ripping through the ego and of unfurling ones identity with or through something other than.
The parent senses a release - real or not - an abandonment of the confining corporeal shell, when he or she witnesses one of his/her parts growing and expanding independently, and externalized into a new multi-dimensional form, a distinct otherness and sameness all at once.
The ego is stretched - making it thinner, more translucent and porous - to incorporate this new branching out within its sense of identity and the sensation is one of expansion and of enlargement.
The self sees itself in the offspring, no longer as a mere reflection or a caricature, but as an actual distinctness, autonomously acting and thinking and being unpredictably unique, though similar enough to relate to and live vicariously through.
The self now brushes up against dissolution. It experiences, first hand, its precariousness and preserving illusions and this stretching of ego relieves the tensions off its self-cohesion.

An artist, similarly, experiences this same expansion of identity, this release from the boundaries, even if to a lesser degree, when he or she exposes a piece of his/her inner being, as it is made conscious, in the form of a symbolic outward representation, both part of and separate from the creator.
All creations reward the creator with this same sense of liberation and discharge, often expressed by invoking imagery of spiritual awakening or becoming apparent as a form of intellectual enlightenment.

Man builds to replace what he understands as disorder with his own idealized form of order which he imitates from the patterns he experiences in the world around him. He turns unpredictability into predictability, uses random materials to construct monuments based on mathematical principles and purpose, turns color into painting, sounds into music and words into prose in an effort to express the inexpressible, he takes thoughts and constructs ideologies trying to discipline his nature to a set of values and struggles to substitute an indifferent reality with an ethical, just one, in agreement with what he believes he wants and deserves.

Consciousness, in its search for this release from finitude, becomes an instrument of order, an agent of harmony in the tumult, a preacher of idealized states; it becomes a sorcerer conjuring up the source or a wizard claiming dominance over its mystery.

The mind, this ghostly ambiguity, this ethereal product of matter, is but an instrument of conservation, struggling to establish essence in the void, to envelop the universe into an organized synchronization, to heal it from the rift of time and bring it to the balanced final end of flawlessness.
Man refers to this hoped for, imagined state, as Heaven or Nirvana or by whatever mystical term his spiritual heritage has labelled it with. It is, for him, an abstracted final destination, an escape from the tumultuous, and often disconcerting, existence he calls...life.

A memory, perhaps, governs its focus. A memory of a moment where unity was complete, if not perfect, where all the forces were one and multiplicity had not yet come to be, through the tearing apart of the void, we like to call the Big Bang.

Scientists tell us that in the beginning, even before there was a word, all forces were one. No matter must have existed then, since there was no time/space, to rip it out of the Nothingness- this same state of unified balance, still echoes within us, like some form of background radiation, urging us to return to it, to reconstruct it from the decaying order and solve its riddle by finding the clues in its hidden patterns.

Our myths, as projections of our psychology, are fraught with the imagery of reunification, of our desire to achieve concordance with an otherness and heal reality and ourselves from its entropic disease.
Our language is likewise full of such insinuations: The English word harmony, for example, is but a derivative of an ancient-Greek goddess’s name, Harmonia - Harmonia who was daughter to Aphrodite, goddess of sex and lust, and Ares, god of war and violence, and in the ancient tongue her name meant: to join.
It is not a coincidence that both Kypris (Aphrodite} and Ares are representations of the uncontrollable parts of human nature - creative and destructive, wild and base, pleasing and agonizing. Both aspects of nature, reason struggles to come to terms with and the intellect fights to bring under its direction.

This disease we all feel inside of us as discontentment, as a psychological disjoint, manifesting itself in an unquenchable hunger that drives us to feed it and to find final satiation.
Perhaps it is the resonating vibrations of gyrating superstrings, trying to find a single unified tune, or some kind of particle recollection which we feel in our inner being as an absence of ease.
It is what makes us ambitious and unsatisfied, restless and ingenious, curious and imaginative. It is what forces us to seek out a relief from our unyielding suffering, to forget it in a moment of pleasurable release, to find emancipation from our contradictory becoming.

But what matters this in the here and now?
The practical dominates human thought and the ephemeral physical concerns overshadow eternal metaphysical ones.

In our search for extension we try to dominate and incorporate or we try to surrender and participate, in accordance with our psychological states, our character and our nature.
Our thoughts are guided by that, before mentioned, need for expansion, for escaping our boundaries, and for bridging the rift.
And it is this desire that determines our interactions, our social needs and our psychological requirements.
We want to belong.

We attach to one another, not because of some personal choice but because of a primal necessity that was decided for us long ago, and a compulsory interdependence that slowly became permanent through generations of association.

It is survival that concludes in congregation, as a preliminary step towards expansion, and this gathering forces some individual sacrifices and strategic considerations.
One such consideration is the need to make ones self not only essential but also attractive and likeable to as many of the social unity’s parts as possible.

Becoming productive to the whole is as crucial as becoming agreeable to it.
It is what lies at the core of what we call the Golden Rule or Karma.

2

In the continuing debate over what shapes human beings (Nature/Nurture), our modern, rationalistic world, and popular opinion as a consequence, seems to be showing a distinct partiality towards nurturing as a decisive factor, for obvious romantic, political and self-serving reasons. Nature is relegated to the role of explaining mere cosmetic diversity, such as coloration, form and size, as a way of diminishing the importance of its function, or it is blamed for destructive mutations, such as crippling malformations and physical/mental retardations, as a way of insulting it, repaying its apathy towards human suffering and justifying reason’s failings.
We are to believe, if we adhere to popular sentiment, that biology only determines our physical parameters while our intellect, psychology and overall potential, as living entities, are mainly determined by environmental conditions and the memes – to use Dawkin’s term - that shape human civilization.

Criminal behaviour is thusly blamed on dysfunctional family units or mental illnesses. Natural violent tendencies, killer instincts and innate rebelliousness are ignored or minimized and the beast within is caged behind the bars of rationalism.

Racism and all forms of intolerance are explained as a product of ignorance with no biological roots and with no factual anchors. Education will save us from our nature and reinterpret our selfish genes into selfless memes, the mind will be trained and tied so our past can no longer well up from the depths and drown the present with the awareness of its own pretence.

Gender identity simply becomes a product of social engineering and cultural authoritarianism, as feminism and the equalitarian ethos it sprung from demands, with no basis in natural selection and no relevance besides some obvious physical differences.
Nature is there only to explain the existence of aesthetic sexual diversity and denied relevance in the clarification of gender psychology, ability and intellect.

Everything that reminds us of genetic determinism and hints at reason’s limits is wiped away through indoctrination and training. Reason places itself as a monopolizing factor in all things human.

Genetic direction is denied significant participation in the formation of identity and its potential, and a clear effort is made to explain every form of diversity, pertaining to the intellect, from racial to sexual, as being directly related to immediate environmental influences rather than historical, gradual ones. Reason is placed beyond genetic reach, in this way.
Inheritance is then diminished as a relevant influence, - except when it leads to debilitating and obvious hereditary diseases and mutations or when it cannot be rationalized away using contemporary knowledge. All aberration is explained as a consequence of immediate environmental effects that can be altered, diverted, corrected and controlled, by the human mind, to achieve the desired results.

Reason then becomes master of its own reality and our culture becomes a rational one, where all “ailments” are curable and all mysteries are knowable and all errors are correctable.
Perspectivism wasn’t meant to eradicate absolute “truth”, it was meant to describe man’s inability to perceive it, making its existence or non-existence a moot point. But in the modern desire to save free-will from determinism, it is now used to level all opinions, concerning it, into a muck of equal relevance and used to destroy all remnants of natural power balances and concepts of superiority and inferiority value judgments, so as to replace them with new ones.
Annihilate the concepts of “reality” and “truth” in the human mind, as they have been determined by nature’s programmes, and you can then substitute them with “realities” and “truths” originating in human imagination and determined by how many you can infect with your dogma or indoctrinate into your “facts”.
In the struggle to emancipate the self, nature becomes the first prison to break out from and reason casts itself as the great redeemer, the wings upon which the human spirit will transcend itself and return to its origin, as the very definition of self.

Here is where we witness the systemic confrontation between the natural world order
{the system that birthed us} and civilization, the rational world order {the system(s) we birthed ourselves as a continuance of the previous one} and where the lines between Nature’s gene and Dawkin’s meme are being laid down as a challenge to us all.
Here is where we see the opening salvos in the clash between pre-existing (natural) environments and manmade (artificial) ones, and how the latter are now attempting to replace or minimize or divert the effects and dominance of the former in the formation of human kind and our future.
Memes struggle to curtail genetic predetermination and bring human existence under the auspices of rational idealism.
Nature’s model, if the mind has its way, shall no longer dominate human behaviour, and memetic motives shall, from now on, replace genetic determination with their own idealized concepts, shaped through rational imperatives and the intellect’s desire to control its own realm. Man’s behaviour will be guided by logic and reasoned analysis, rather than by reactive instinct and emotional inebriation, and all will be well with the world. Reason shall peer into the darkness and light it with its understanding, find order in the muddled universe, explain and control every force it becomes aware of and harness the cosmos to its power of comprehension.

There is a clear reason for this modern day cultural bias, and this conflict in general, and it stems from the fundamental need for the mind to preserve the idea of self-determination, as part of its self-realization, and make it possible for the intellect to intervene, as a universal healing force, which will correct nature’s flaws and bring order and justice, to a chaotic, indifferent universe.
{Whether this transcendental role is justified or a figment of the imagination and a product of fear are not matters that will be dealt with here.}

In this quagmire of evolutionary mutation, which creates conflicting human drives and interests, individuality is shaped and the sense of self is established.

The one natural constant is the undeniable social character of humankind.
It is ingrained in our D.N.A.
Our sense of self is only possible through the existence of another, through which we perceive our self reflected back at us and we establish our limitations and our character.

A connection to another is as essential to our well-being as food or water is. Millennia of evolution have solidified this requirement.
Maybe it is part of some natural physical phenomenon where unstable particles seek to unify with others, just like them, in search for some form of constancy, or maybe it is a reaction against growing universal entropy or maybe, as many well wishers want to believe, it is part of a transcending Love Force trying to save us from ourselves. Whatever the case may be, we can see this social need behind every human action and every human thought.

We bond with one another into larger groupings, sometimes as small as a gang, a family, a tribe or a cultural sub-grouping and sometimes as large as a nation state, a cultural tradition or an ideological dogma, and we associate our distinctiveness with these larger entities.
We even attempt to lose our selves in them, to the point where the association, sometimes, becomes so strong that it makes it possible for an individual to sacrifice life and profit for the group’s or the other’s survival.

How uniqueness is broken down through group dynamics, to enable collective cohesion and self-sacrifice, is something I personally became aware of first-hand in army boot-camp. It is where I was given that duffle-bag, I mentioned in the beginning.

I can now understand how selfishness can be extended to include a larger identity of self and why many people find solace in referring to it as selflessness.
The connection between self and action sometimes become abstracted through this extension of personal identity. Many believe they are being selfless because their interpretation of their actions, and the motives behind them, do not have a direct, perceptible, link with self, and because their knowledge of who and what they are is incomplete or warped by moralistic mythology and/or egotism.
They have now, subconsciously, associated self with a larger whole, on whose behalf they act and whose interests, values and ethos they have adopted as their own and share in. All of their judgments are now influenced by communal norms.

Social unities can become so powerfully cohesive that, in time, this need for extension, for a release from self, results in the individual losing his immediate sense of uniqueness and with him replacing it with an annexed self, which now includes multiple participants, of which he is but a part of.
This loss of autonomy is felt as an unburdening from personal responsibility and the weight of free-will which, as Sartre claimed, terrifies man to no end.
Then the sense of self is acquired from the group itself and our sense of self-worth and identity can only be found within the larger entities common principles and how they reflect upon us. We relieve ourselves from existence by sharing it.

We experience this loss as a partial return to the greater Self, as it is connected to a larger identity that protects us from the ravages of the unknown and the indifference of a universe we feel so tiny in relation to, and it offers us the illusion of immortality through the promise of posterity.

But this connection to a collective is tentative, at best.
The character and sense of individuality of every participant – and I dare say their sex - determines to what extent they will bond to any group or to any one person. It will determine the size of the group they are willing to bond with and it will also determine the relationship between the individual and the collective; if it will be confrontational, defiant and domineering or if it will be submissive, accepting and peaceable.
The more established the character the more resistant it will be to assimilation. The stronger the Will behind it, the less submissive to the collective it will be. The larger the ego the less pliable and stretchable it is and the more protective of its original self-cohesion it will be.
No surprise then to find extreme expressions of individual identity within the young, still throbbing with the energies of becoming, while the old, the sick and the weak find comfort in conformity.
This is where the differentiation between psychological health and psychological illness can be culturally established, requiring the appropriate labels, treatments and reprisals.
Due to this, we can understand why ego and pride have been so demonized in our modern world, while humility has been sanctified and raised into a virtue.
Ego and pride are examples of resistance to the cohesive drive and so must be curtailed through slander, by a system that benefits from complete discipline to its authority, or they must be punished for their indiscretions and held up as examples to be avoided.
Perhaps this individual opposition is a remnant of some primitiveness that has not completely been evolved out of us yet, and that now resists the replacement of one identity with another.

In the wild animals established and maintain connections through grooming rituals, after power balances have been instituted and after individual roles have been relegated.
Each member of the group knows its place and only challenges the status quo when opportunities arise through power imbalances or when new relationships need to be realigned.
The way in which each member attaches himself to the whole is by creating connections to its parts. The more malleable ones persona is, the more likable and attractive he/she becomes to as many of the participating members, determines his/her place within it and the extent of their assimilation and contentment.
So it becomes obvious that the more able one is to adapt to the other’s particular character traits and the more one is able to repress the parts in himself/herself which might make him/her less amiable to the other(s), the more opportunity he/she will have to connect with many more members of a group and be accepted within their midst.
This, in turn, will determine their survivability and future safety and well-being.

In human interactions language has replaced the physical grooming mechanism as a more efficient form of bonding that can accomplish the same results with more efficiency over greater distances. But the same concerns and the same strategies that govern our wild brethren apply to humans as well.
Our actions and our linguistic expressions of self become symbolic projections of inner character, even if it is often purposefully ambiguous and incomplete.

To become likable to as many different individuals as possible is a tricky affair.
It not only requires a willingness to defer to the other’s personality to the right degree but it also requires a talent to perceive it accurately, adapt to it precisely and maintain the illusion of consistency in relation to it.

A further consideration is the necessity of not making it too obvious so as to expose it as faked or forced. The façade of total openness must be nurtured, thusly making the natural inhibitions and anxieties involved in connecting, to a foreign, unknowable entity, less relevant and, in this way, eliminate the normal fear associated with proximity.
The best way to achieve this consistency and illusion of frankness is when the actor himself/herself becomes convinced of his/her own performance or plays the part for so long as to be unable to distinguish their core self from their social self.
The inner child is dressed up with adult uniforms, makeup and is adorned and groomed into “maturity”.

Hypocrisy and pretence are often maligned by those wishing to preserve this romantic ideal of purity and authenticity, but they are both an indispensable element in any human relationship.
Nature is full of examples of duplicity and deception. A bird’s song is no less pretentious and a cat’s raised hairs no less a form of fakery.
Flirtation is, itself, a form of misleading sexual negotiation, where both sides prance and fawn and pretend, while they test and prod, offer and demand, sell and buy, trying to get the best deal for the least cost.

It is this need to preserve the illusion of authenticity and openness that lies behind the piece of popular sophistry, often heard on television talk-shows, written in self-help books and advice articles or overheard in conversations:
“Just be your self.”
We hear it echoed everywhere as a type of embedded wisdom which requires no further analysis.
But to what extent one can be “one’s self” is determined firstly by the extent to which one knows what that self is, secondly by how much of that self is constructed through social engineering and thirdly by how much one’s true self is acceptable to the sensitivities of a community.
We can imagine knowing Jeffrey Dahmer, before his public exposure, and offering him this same piece of advice when he comes to us distraught over what he wants to do:
“Just be yourself Jeffrey, dear.”, or perhaps offering this piece of advice to Hitler when he tells us of his plans for world domination and genocide:
“Be yourself, Adolph, and you can’t go wrong.”
In fact the advice rests on the hopeful assumption that the other will not insult, disgust or hurt us. That it is, in general, what we perceive it to be and nothing more. That it is just like we perceive ourselves to be.
The advice is a manifestation of the presumptuous belief that nature has been completely subjugated and no longer diverts the powers of reason, that the other’s “true-self” resembles the perception of our own and that nothing in it will be harmful or insulting to us personally.
In other words, that it is contained within the rules that govern our collective consciousness.

I often wonder how understanding and compassionate we would all be if we could somehow glimpse inside the mind of the everyday man, the seemingly average, domesticated Joe, going about his business, paying his taxes, following the laws, being courteous and contributing to society in his own humble way.
I often wonder what we would see inside the “pious” mind of the faithful, praying in Church every Sunday and helping the needy on their days off.
I often wonder how complete disclosure would affect our ideas about intimacy and authenticity and how tolerant we would then be.

But the “Be yourself.” advice has some practical wisdom attached to it.
The desire to maintain the façade of authenticity, consistency play’s the part of “truth”.
One cannot reinvent himself at every meeting or recreate his/her personality in accordance to the other continuously. Larger unities force multiple observers over our behaviours, which, in turn, force the need for a steady persona, as it is established through multiple inter-relations, aesthetic prejudices and idealized goals, and which preserve the image of reality.

Here we can see the foundations of civility and politeness.
They are both ideals based on a set of common rules, recognized through centuries of socialization, which promise to reduce the natural discomforts of individual relationships.
Social graciousness in any group is the common denominator of any interpersonal relation and a form of practiced association defined by greeting and parting rituals or by general policies concerning etiquette and decency, meant to lessen the anxieties of being social.
Being courteous is another way of being disingenuous because it always entails some form of repression and imitation that does not fully express individuality - unless it is in a watered down, socially acceptable form.

The first thing that happens with every new assembly is an automatic sizing-up of the other(s), followed by a search for the other’s preferences, qualities and boundaries, once an initial physical attraction/ repulsion or a social/economic affiliation has been established.
The second thing that happens is a muted power struggle, where balances are established through symbolic body movements, and subtle linguistic cues - maybe, sometimes, through more obvious means – and after we have assessed the other’s boundaries, qualities, strengths and weaknesses - all this, most often, on a subconscious level and within culturally allowable parameters.
We adapt our persona to the other’s sensitivities – if we desire to make a connection - and we censor our words and actions, as much as possible and in accordance with our evaluations of the other’s personality, status, feedback and communal role.
We no more make sexual jokes in the presence of clergy than we express confrontational convictions in the presence of our boss.

This creates a connection with definable restrictions which determine all further relations, from here on in, with this same individual and is affected by all the intermediary and interconnected side-relationships within the extended group. In time, as comfort levels rise or as they fall, these restrictions might be readjusted. But even in the most comfortable, long-term relationships, there is always an element of restriction and confidentiality.

3

No human relationship can ever survive total disclosure for long.
There will always be an element of the other’s “honesty” that grates at our soul and blemishes our tolerance of them.
No matter how minute an offence might be, it taints the entirety and cannot be ignored for long.
Just like a fly in our milk: The pallid liquid becomes the background for that speck of vile darkness, we cannot avoid focusing upon, until the whole glass becomes distasteful; a contrasting difference making the apparent cleanliness of the whole doubtful.

In time personal “reality” is inevitably unravelled through subtle hints and unfortunate situations, until finally our folly is revealed, and our revised interpretation, or clearer understanding, of the other and of our unknown self, fills us with a sense of disillusionment and loss.
Chemical reactions are, inevitably, washed from our system and emotion releases its grip from our brain. We then become painfully aware of our past recklessness and delusion or we explain them away as being a consequence of the other’s many faults; time erodes away the masks, and the other’s flaws become reminders of our own, the other’s pretence serves to expose ours and the mystery of the other rekindles a subconscious awareness of our total seclusion behind our skulls and it fills us with that old fear for the unknown.
Nature, then, whispers in our cultured ear and our relentless instincts shame the intellect with their overriding last word.

The entire social fabric is woven with the strings of deceptive courteousness - social graces covering the vastness of suppressed personality and repressed nature.

Civilization is built on the foundations of bullshit.
Bullshit isn’t just some topic a philosophy professor can write an essay about, as if it’s an exception to an ethical rule that soils our general purity and something only the few ignoble are guilty of, as opposed to some imagined ideal man. Nor is it some vice that requires virtuous intervention to right its wrong.
Bullshit is simply a social strategy, nothing more, nothing less.
It is, in fact, what makes communal living and human interaction possible; a social lubricant that enables two dissimilar entities to work together with as little friction as possible.

Everything from a casual greeting to a leader provoking a nation into war is fraught with untruthfulness.
Everything from a marketing ploy to sexual seduction is fraught with dishonesty.
A friend, choosing his words carefully as to not hurt us, is just as guilty of deception as a grifter is, doing the same thing to hurt us.
The outcome might appear different on the surface and the degrees may vary, but the underlying, self-serving motives and psychological insecurities involved are alike.
We are being just as hypocritical when we watch our tone of voice or when we insinuate agreement through silence - when inside we are really ranting and raving or laughing or cursing or feeling indifferent - as when we go out of our way to mislead.
Even our “honest” expressions of personal opinion, expressed from time to time at our own risk, are mostly pulled punches, purposefully ambiguous, censored judgments and/or probing events meant to partially vent suppressed views and repressed emotions without completely revealing them and facing the consequences.

I, personally, have gotten into much more trouble speaking my mind freely, than I ever have by uttering a single lie or expressing a single disingenuous opinion.
The proverb “Honesty is the best policy.” is just another preserving myth.
In fact “Honesty is the worse policy.” if immediate personal interests are at stake, and only the “best policy” for the other that wishes to protect himself/herself from our private mind and our hidden motives.

Every man, through history, that has dared to expose human folly has become the favourite target for collective ridicule and attack.
His “honesty” wasn’t refreshing nor was it appreciated. It was interpreted as a sign of bad intention, which purposefully ignored convention and revealed the fragility of social power balances.
He was then degraded, insulted slandered and laughed at, for having the audacity to challenge our collective values.
His opinions dissected in search for advantage, under the prejudice belief that any mind that holds an opinion contrary to an acceptable norm must acquire some direct benefit from it.
A prejudice that serves to expose our own self-interested perspectives, we enjoy projecting onto others, because they dominate our surroundings.

We rarely question the integrity, nor the sanity of the one that echoes our beliefs or our emotions or our rationality back at us, making us feel that we are on the right path and living the best possible life or that our own pretence is, in fact our genuine self and not some social façade we wear to achieve a more unproblematic integration within the group.
But we often question their integrity and sanity when the other offends our conventions and makes us uncertain about our investments and attitudes or when the other hints at our own duplicity and hidden self.
We despise them for it. We despise them for challenging our connections to a whole we wish to disappear within or for merely making us doubt and rethink our positions.

And what can one be, if they are indifferent to our hatred or to our collective wrath, if they are not ill or a product of dysfunction?
Do they not test the very notion of health and normalcy altogether?
Haven’t all monsters, through time, been guilty of challenging our shared judgments?

Manson, Dahmer, Bundy or any infamous or anonymous criminal in our prison, is considered ill, not because of what they did or thought, so much, but because they could not bring their passions under reason’s control sufficiently enough to make them consider the consequences of confronting the collective; because they were, perhaps, indifferent to our opinions of them or to the image they projected against our combined judgment; because they didn’t care about what we thought of them and showed no inhibitions in expressing those “inappropriate” sides of themselves; because their indoctrination into our value systems didn’t stick and they could not be tamed; because they dared to be themselves unequivocally and with the full glory of their inherited nature, mostly revealing itself through sexual divergence and violence, the twin pinnacles of suppressed natural tendencies.
Ares and Aphrodite, blush.

The criminal’s divergence from the norm makes them unpredictable to us and this makes them dangerous; it makes them “monsters” that must be re-harmonized and re-educated back into the fold.
We prefer the predictability of conformity and imitation.
The civilized man should be a reflection of his neighbour, speaking the words he was taught, wearing the facades we wear ourselves, acting in the same ways as we do, being ambitious in the same arenas we are, dreaming the same dreams, eating the same foods, owning the same stuff, fucking in the same manner.
The civilized man should be a defender of the status quo, a conservative force, a repairer of the pretentious fabric that envelopes us all with its calming grace and soothing safety.
Mega-cities, super-organisms can, in this way, become functional entities.
Nation states become reality. Globalization becomes plausible.
And the mind attains that state of release into the whole, losing the uncomfortable self in the conglomeration and unloading its fears and anxieties unto the communal shoulders of unity.

This need for hypocrisy isn’t a matter of personal choice; it is a matter of survival, forced upon us through the environment as it is shaped by systemic control.
Human existence is no longer dependant on adapting to natural environments but now it is dependant on adapting to artificial, man-made ones.

Being acceptable and tolerable to the greater whole makes some form of insincerity crucial and it makes reason’s control over natural drives essential.
Tell someone what he likes to believe is true and he/she will love you, tell them something that confronts their perspective of reality and you set yourself up to be ostracized and excluded like a cancerous cell.
October 4, 2005

Xerxes
10-09-05, 06:29 PM
Welcome back, Tiassa.

Satyr
10-09-05, 06:32 PM
Thank you.

It feels good to be back.

Will be gone again, though.

This place is too intellectually challenging to make me sacrifice so much time in unraveling its complexities.

Xerxes
10-09-05, 06:41 PM
Weren't you the one who once touted that "brevity is the soul of it"? Come on, summarize.

Satyr
10-09-05, 06:45 PM
Bullshit is what makes the world go round.
This place reeks of it.

Baron Max
10-09-05, 06:55 PM
Bullshit is what makes the world go round. This place reeks of it.

So you felt that it was necessary to spread MORE of it than anyone else???

In fact, how long did you spend typing up all of that bullshit? Was it worth it?

Baron Max

Satyr
10-09-05, 07:02 PM
Baron Max

So you felt that it was necessary to spread MORE of it than anyone else???I try my best to remain a willing and productive member of society.
You didn’t think I would let you outdo me, did you?

In fact, how long did you spend typing up all of that bullshit?I believe it was 4 hours.
I had my thumb up my ass and only used one hand.


Was it worth it?Yes.

hypewaders
10-09-05, 09:10 PM
[xerxes:] Welcome back, Tiassa.

Not Tiassa- Vaguely tiassesque here, but generally much shallower.

Bells
10-10-05, 05:58 PM
No human relationship can ever survive total disclosure for long.
There will always be an element of the other’s “honesty” that grates at our soul and blemishes our tolerance of them.
No matter how minute an offence might be, it taints the entirety and cannot be ignored for long.
This jumped out at me. Ever since the birth of my son nearly 3 weeks ago now, I find that my significant other and myself have alienated half of our family and friends. Why? Because when they would ring and say they were coming over, we were honest and would sometimes say that it was not a good time because not only were we exhausted, but we wanted to spend some time alone ourselves with our child. Should we have merely lied and said yes come on over, when we did not want them there? I guess the answer would be yes. I have been accused by my own mother of being selfish because I have said that since I've had no sleep for 3 days or more, that when the baby sleeps during the day, I wish to also try and catch up on some sleep so therefore I don't want visitors.

Honesty, no matter how politely delivered, is never appreciated if it goes against another's wishes.

Russ723
10-11-05, 12:19 PM
I'm gonna quote that just to be a jackass.

Russ723
10-11-05, 12:26 PM
Seriously, well done Satyr.

water
10-11-05, 02:34 PM
Satyr ...


No human relationship can ever survive total disclosure for long.
There will always be an element of the other’s “honesty” that grates at our soul and blemishes our tolerance of them.
No matter how minute an offence might be, it taints the entirety and cannot be ignored for long.
Just like a fly in our milk: The pallid liquid becomes the background for that speck of vile darkness, we cannot avoid focusing upon, until the whole glass becomes distasteful; a contrasting difference making the apparent cleanliness of the whole doubtful.

Such is true for vampires, yes.


In time personal “reality” is inevitably unravelled through subtle hints and unfortunate situations, until finally our folly is revealed, and our revised interpretation, or clearer understanding, of the other and of our unknown self, fills us with a sense of disillusionment and loss.

And you know why this happens? Because we let our love for others depend on others, and let it be defined by them.
And this happens when we believe that we need others to make us happy, or to be happy with.


Civilization is built on the foundations of bullshit.
Bullshit isn’t just some topic a philosophy professor can write an essay about, as if it’s an exception to an ethical rule that soils our general purity and something only the few ignoble are guilty of, as opposed to some imagined ideal man. Nor is it some vice that requires virtuous intervention to right its wrong.
Bullshit is simply a social strategy, nothing more, nothing less.
It is, in fact, what makes communal living and human interaction possible; a social lubricant that enables two dissimilar entities to work together with as little friction as possible.

This bullshit is necessary only when people are behaving like vampires: depending on others in order to feel like someone. People who, left to themselves, are nothing. -- These people need that social bullshit in order to reconcile themselves with the victimhood or martyrdom they have assigned themselves to.


Everything from a casual greeting to a leader provoking a nation into war is fraught with untruthfulness.
Everything from a marketing ploy to sexual seduction is fraught with dishonesty.
A friend, choosing his words carefully as to not hurt us, is just as guilty of deception as a grifter is, doing the same thing to hurt us.
The outcome might appear different on the surface and the degrees may vary, but the underlying, self-serving motives and psychological insecurities involved are alike.
We are being just as hypocritical when we watch our tone of voice or when we insinuate agreement through silence - when inside we are really ranting and raving or laughing or cursing or feeling indifferent - as when we go out of our way to mislead.
Even our “honest” expressions of personal opinion, expressed from time to time at our own risk, are mostly pulled punches, purposefully ambiguous, censored judgments and/or probing events meant to partially vent suppressed views and repressed emotions without completely revealing them and facing the consequences.

What poor, desolate creatures we make ourselves into. And all for the sake of a little fleeting comfort.


I, personally, have gotten into much more trouble speaking my mind freely, than I ever have by uttering a single lie or expressing a single disingenuous opinion.

What were you trying to achieve with "speaking your mind freely"? Were you trying to hurt someone, were you trying to show off with your intellect, were you trying to blackmail others?
If yes, and you have not directly made your intentions clear -- then don't be surprised to be avoided and discarded.


Manson, Dahmer, Bundy or any infamous or anonymous criminal in our prison, is considered ill, not because of what they did or thought, so much, but because they could not bring their passions under reason’s control sufficiently enough to make them consider the consequences of confronting the collective; because they were, perhaps, indifferent to our opinions of them or to the image they projected against our combined judgment; because they didn’t care about what we thought of them and showed no inhibitions in expressing those “inappropriate” sides of themselves; because their indoctrination into our value systems didn’t stick and they could not be tamed; because they dared to be themselves unequivocally and with the full glory of their inherited nature, mostly revealing itself through sexual divergence and violence, the twin pinnacles of suppressed natural tendencies.

Ah. Romanticizing and idealizing, making mountains out of molehills.
If a mosquito bites you or is about to bite you, you slap it and kill it. That is all. You can make up tons of fancy philosophizing on that issue -- but it betrays the simple fact that you can't accept that there are mosquitos, or Dahmers, in this world, and that you feel guilty for not knowing what to do with them, while all along being afraid of them.


This need for hypocrisy isn’t a matter of personal choice; it is a matter of survival, forced upon us through the environment as it is shaped by systemic control.
Human existence is no longer dependant on adapting to natural environments but now it is dependant on adapting to artificial, man-made ones.

This need for hypocrisy only exist when you fear that you would be nothing without others -- when you fear that you would be nobody without others, that you'd have no identity without others.


Being acceptable and tolerable to the greater whole makes some form of insincerity crucial and it makes reason’s control over natural drives essential.
Tell someone what he likes to believe is true and he/she will love you, tell them something that confronts their perspective of reality and you set yourself up to be ostracized and excluded like a cancerous cell.

Whenever you try to make up for another person's lack of understanding, you end up feeling dishonest and being dishonest.

We are dishonest towards others (and ourselves), because of our own assumptions about them (and about ourselves).

We are not dishonest for the sake of "protecting" or "not wanting to hurt" anyone.

We are dishonest for our own sake, trying to preserve our aggrandized image of ourselves.


* * *


Bells,


This jumped out at me. Ever since the birth of my son nearly 3 weeks ago now, I find that my significant other and myself have alienated half of our family and friends. Why? Because when they would ring and say they were coming over, we were honest and would sometimes say that it was not a good time because not only were we exhausted, but we wanted to spend some time alone ourselves with our child. Should we have merely lied and said yes come on over, when we did not want them there? I guess the answer would be yes. I have been accused by my own mother of being selfish because I have said that since I've had no sleep for 3 days or more, that when the baby sleeps during the day, I wish to also try and catch up on some sleep so therefore I don't want visitors.

If others don't respect your needs, then these people are not good friends anyway. Why strive to preserve relationships with them?

So what if your mother called you selfish when you wanted to get some rest? Do you believe her? Do you think you were selfish when you wanted to get rest?


Honesty, no matter how politely delivered, is never appreciated if it goes against another's wishes.

And whose problem is that? Yours or theirs?

It is your problem only if you put other people's needs before your own. But if you do put other people's needs before your own, you eventually lose yourself, and who you are becomes dependent on what others expect from you. Which, I think, is a shame.

Raithere
10-11-05, 03:03 PM
This need for hypocrisy isn’t a matter of personal choice; it is a matter of survival, forced upon us through the environment as it is shaped by systemic control.
Human existence is no longer dependant on adapting to natural environments but now it is dependant on adapting to artificial, man-made ones.Honesty is only so much more bullshit.

As if the intellect were able to define motive and desire in anything but abstract, generalized terms. As if one could discern in atomic principle the defining factors of psyche, distill emotion, manifest perception, or categorize experience. Self defined is nothing more than an illusion, a cloak we pull around ourselves to shelter us from the raw experience of not-self. The core of being is unnamed awareness. Self only becomes in the presence of other, is defined by its definition of other.

Even to ourselves we are only liars. Where then lies hypocrisy in balancing one lie against another? As if some individual truth will be sacrificed upon the alter of society? As if we could define ourselves at all in the absence of other? Unity again, there is no dualistic contest of opposing forces. What is, is. What we make of it defines our selves.

~Raithere

Roman
10-11-05, 03:17 PM
water,
I feel your argument, and many of your arguments of late, hinge around this sentiment:
...we let our love for others depend on others, and let it be defined by them.
And this happens when we believe that we need others to make us happy, or to be happy with.

Your use of the word belief insinuates that the need for another person is non-biological. It's like saying we really don't need food. We believe we need to breathe, and thus all this nonsense over respiration.

Needing people is more than a vice or character flaw. It's a weakness, but not a weakness that we may fault an individual for. We're hardwired to like people, need people, want people.

Satyr
10-11-05, 05:05 PM
water
Such is true for vampires, yes.Are you saying life is not made up of predator and victim relationships? A vampire is a caricature symbolizing a life force.
If you have transcended existences and are now an angel, then you are indeed fortunate.

And you know why this happens? Because we let our love for others depend on others, and let it be defined by them.
And this happens when we believe that we need others to make us happy, or to be happy with.And what is your love and happiness dependant upon?

If you give me some idealized clap-trap then you must ask yourself from where this ideal comes from?

This bullshit is necessary only when people are behaving like vampires: depending on others in order to feel like someone. People who, left to themselves, are nothing. -- These people need that social bullshit in order to reconcile themselves with the victimhood or martyrdom they have assigned themselves to.Are you proposing anti-social behaviour?
What are you doing here, then?

Can you name one person, one living entity that is not both predator and prey?
Did you eat today?
Did you talk to someone?
Did you mask your feelings behind social conventions?
Did you choose your words carefully?

What poor, desolate creatures we make ourselves into. And all for the sake of a little fleeting comfort.Make ourselves?

We don’t make ourselves anything.
We are made this way. The world makes us either through the directness of environment or through the indirectness of history.

What were you trying to achieve with "speaking your mind freely"? Were you trying to hurt someone, were you trying to show off with your intellect, were you trying to blackmail others?
If yes, and you have not directly made your intentions clear -- then don't be surprised to be avoided and discarded.If my love and happiness does not depend on others then why would being “avoided” and “discarded” matter?

What are your motives, besides fleeting comforts and elusive contentment?
Blackmail?! :confused:

Ah. Romanticizing and idealizing, making mountains out of molehills.
If a mosquito bites you or is about to bite you, you slap it and kill it. That is all. You can make up tons of fancy philosophizing on that issue -- but it betrays the simple fact that you can't accept that there are mosquitos, or Dahmers, in this world, and that you feel guilty for not knowing what to do with them, while all along being afraid of them.Afraid of them?
I am one of them. They make sense.

The only difference between them and us “civilized” folk is that their passions could not be controlled by their reason and the communal threat.

Mosquitoes don’t bother me, its butterflies pretending to be something more.
It is bees enticing me with honey.


Raithere
Even to ourselves we are only liars. Where then lies hypocrisy in balancing one lie against another? As if some individual truth will be sacrificed upon the alter of society? As if we could define ourselves at all in the absence of other? Unity again, there is no dualistic contest of opposing forces. What is, is. What we make of it defines our selves.Correct.

water
10-11-05, 05:08 PM
Roman,


I feel your argument, and many of your arguments of late, hinge around this sentiment:

...we let our love for others depend on others, and let it be defined by them.
And this happens when we believe that we need others to make us happy, or to be happy with.

Your use of the word belief insinuates that the need for another person is non-biological. It's like saying we really don't need food. We believe we need to breathe, and thus all this nonsense over respiration.

Not at all.
See below:


Needing people is more than a vice or character flaw. It's a weakness, but not a weakness that we may fault an individual for.

I do not think it is a weakness, not at all.


We're hardwired to like people, need people, want people.

Of course! But the issue is how we approach this, what are our intentions in interacting with others.

Are we seeking interaction and are interacting out of fear, ignorance, or ill will, or are we seeking interaction and are interacting because we seek to love and seek the happiness of all living beings?


*smiles sweetly*

water
10-11-05, 05:10 PM
Satyr,


Do you have free will?

extrasense
10-12-05, 01:46 PM
I often ask myself I would not recomend that to you. And what did you answer?

e :D s

Bells
10-13-05, 07:38 PM
If others don't respect your needs, then these people are not good friends anyway. Why strive to preserve relationships with them?
We don't. We simply said no to any visitors, as not only do I need to recover (bad and difficult pregnancy and labour), but we need to get to know our child and his little ways... Those who don't like it can basically 'shove it' as I am past caring. It is amazing how little one cares when one gets no sleep and scrounges for sleep with every little nap the little one takes.. :)

So what if your mother called you selfish when you wanted to get some rest? Do you believe her? Do you think you were selfish when you wanted to get rest?
If I believed her, then I would have collapsed by now because I'd be letting people come over whenever they wanted. I was merely commenting in my previous post that people's wish for honesty will not make them happy if that honesty, when given, goes against what they want for themselves. Of course I don't think it is selfish of me to want to get some rest. My mother thinks I am trying to keep her first grandchild from her. Little does she know that when the little one is old enough to stop breastfeeding, she will be begging us to take him back after we let the grandparents babysit overnight.. :)

It is your problem only if you put other people's needs before your own. But if you do put other people's needs before your own, you eventually lose yourself, and who you are becomes dependent on what others expect from you. Which, I think, is a shame.
I am well aware of that Water, hence why we put our needs and our child's needs before other people's wishes. I did not say that I put other's needs before my own, I was merely saying how people expect you to do so.. thereby further enhancing the dishonesty that exists. It is a shame when people put the needs of others before their own. Unless the needs of the other far outweighs your own, then one should put oneself first.

kenworth
10-13-05, 07:42 PM
i think people should have to write abstracts for their posts if they are over 10 lines long.

water
10-18-05, 03:34 AM
There is one very important thing that hasn't been mentioned, yet it is essential when it comes to honesty and dishonesty:

Relationships demand work. The relationship partners must work on themselves to grow as persons, and they must be committed to the relationship if the relationship is to function healthily.

It is only when people avoid this hard work, refuse to do it, that there emerges the perceived need for dishonesty.

antifreeze
10-18-05, 04:21 AM
nah, dishonesty comes with the territory. who the fuck wants you to be honest? does a wife want to know how many girls her husband has fucked? and in what position? no, no. the work comes in another fashion. Satyr, in what must be one of the longest yet most astute pieces of shit i have seen on this site [from what little of it i read really...sorry], brings up the issue of the drop of blackness defiling the whole of the glass. yet what is not addressed is denial. we can always choose not to see the black spot or at least make like we don't care. and that i think is the hard part.

Satyr
10-18-05, 09:04 AM
antifreeze
nah, dishonesty comes with the territory. who the fuck wants you to be honest? does a wife want to know how many girls her husband has fucked? and in what position? no, no. the work comes in another fashion. Satyr, in what must be one of the longest yet most astute pieces of shit i have seen on this site [from what little of it i read really...sorry], brings up the issue of the drop of blackness defiling the whole of the glass. yet what is not addressed is denial. we can always choose not to see the black spot or at least make like we don't care. and that i think is the hard part.Denial is hypocrisy focused inward.

What is not sufficiently addressed is the hypocrisy of the self towards the self.
If we are surprised by reality then, perhaps, it wasn’t so much the other that fooled us with his/her pretence but it was our self that fooled itself into buying into the pretense to save its own world view and make life more tolerable.

water
There is one very important thing that hasn't been mentioned, yet it is essential when it comes to honesty and dishonesty:

Relationships demand work. The relationship partners must work on themselves to grow as persons, and they must be committed to the relationship if the relationship is to function healthily.

It is only when people avoid this hard work, refuse to do it, that there emerges the perceived need for dishonesty.And why is it such “hard work”?
Could it be that in order for two or more dissimilar entities to tolerate each other, a certain amount of patience and self-suppression is necessary?

There is no growth. There is abandonment.
A snake doesn’t grow the same skin. It abandons it by growing another.
The self is abandoned, in pieces, so as to experience this expansion.

cosmictraveler
10-18-05, 09:11 AM
I try to be very honest with those I meet. If I don't want to lie about something I just change the subject or dance around the subject. I feel it is better to not say anything than lie about things.

water
10-18-05, 11:32 AM
Satyr,


And why is it such “hard work”?

Because it takes a lot of guts and discipline to improve oneself, to heal old wounds one has brought along form childhood and youth -- but which still poison present relationships.


Could it be that in order for two or more dissimilar entities to tolerate each other, a certain amount of patience and self-suppression is necessary?

If the relationship is about *tolerance* -- then it has been lost already.

Patience is always necessary.

As for self-suppression: It depends on what this self is. If, for example, a person is compulsive, controlling, abusive, then it certainly takes them "self-suppression" in order to be in any relationship anyway.


There is no growth. There is abandonment.
A snake doesn’t grow the same skin. It abandons it by growing another.
The self is abandoned, in pieces, so as to experience this expansion.

~Depending on the metaphors we choose to understand ourselves with, we can fuck ourselves up badly.~

I'd say that if anything, there is abandonment of something old, and integrating of something new.

The metaphor that comes to mind is that of a garden: We plant trees, flowers and other plants. Some we keep, some we throw out after a while. Depending on how we tend to our garden, some plants flourish, and some wither.

Baron Max
10-18-05, 11:55 AM
I try to be very honest with those I meet. If I don't want to lie about something I just change the subject or dance around the subject. I feel it is better to not say anything than lie about things.

I agree. Too many people seem to hold to the misconception that they MUST say something ...and that usually means lying. Instead of lying, why not just NOT say anything? ...or as you've said, just change the subject or, if necessary, dance about the topic.

I think there seems to be lots of "pressure", be it societal or cultural or whatever, that's exerted to actually tempt us to lie. I'm not sure what that is or how it came about?

The problem with lying is that it will ALWAYS be found out ...sooner or later. And then it will have to be dealt with, and that's usually in a situation that you can't easily deal with. Lying jsut isn't worth the effort ....just don't say anything!

Baron Max

duendy
10-18-05, 11:59 AM
wish you practiced what you preached meister bmax

Baron Max
10-18-05, 12:11 PM
wish you practiced what you preached meister bmax

What makes you think I don't?

Baron Max

water
10-18-05, 12:11 PM
I think there seems to be lots of "pressure", be it societal or cultural or whatever, that's exerted to actually tempt us to lie. I'm not sure what that is or how it came about?

Fear of silence, fear of the void.
They are probably as old as the mind.

Satyr
10-18-05, 12:15 PM
Isn’t silence a form of hypocrisy?
If I imply agreement through words and/or action or through silence and/or inaction it amounts to the same thing.
In fact silence is the usual strategy when dealing with others.
For example we allow the other to speculate and conclude whatever he/she wishes and if this speculation/conclusion is beneficial to us or we are indifferent towards it we allow it to continue, even if it might not be precise or true at all.
We might even enhance the misinterpretation and error by playing along with the conclusion the other has already reached, thusly saving ourselves the effort of lying or by simply adapting our strategies to the other’s inclinations.
In this case the other fools himself/herself into a desired conclusion or the hypocrisy is turned inward, and we merely play along.

Isn’t one acquiescing through silence and inaction?

For instance you witness a crime but you do nothing, are you guilty of going against the good Samaritan rule, that is of going against a cultural moral imperative which exposes our own half-hearted, hypocritical acceptance of this cultures ethical codes?
Or, what if, your friend does something in your presence which harms someone or goes against your beliefs and you say nor do you do anything to dissuade him or prevent him from doing it, is your silence/inaction a sign of insinuated agreement or is it a distancing?
Is it not hypocrisy?

Civility, for example, is based on remaining silent or selectively expressive.
Civility entails the notion that we must allow the other to believe and think and do as they please if this does not interfere with our own endeavours. In essence we are humouring the other by allowing them to believe that we are in agreement or that his world views are in accordance with our own.

water
10-18-05, 12:20 PM
Isn’t silence a form of hypocrisy?

I think you are a bit paranoid.


Silence *can* be a form of hypocrisy, sure.
But silence, as I was thinking of it, the void we fear ever since time begun for us -- this is the silence that is there we we know that our thoughts are just constructs. Normally, we cling to them, and we forget about the silence, clinging to them makes us feel sure in this vast universe.
But it's a false security. The silence is a reminder of that, this is why we fear it.

water
10-18-05, 12:27 PM
Or, what if, your friend does something in your presence which harms someone or goes against your beliefs and you say nor do you do anything to dissuade him or prevent him from doing it, is your silence/inaction a sign of insinuated agreement or is it a distancing?
Is it not hypocrisy?

Actually, in Old Rome, they had the moral principle that if your friend is doing something harmful or is about to do it, and you know it, but do nothing to prevent it -- this makes you an accomplice.

However, your case is a bit different, as it assumes the possibility that you and your friend are holding different (even mutually exclusive) beliefs.
In such a case, I would question the validity of considering that relationship to be friendship.

I think that people who have basically different ethical beliefs cannot be friends. (They sure can pretend it though.)

Satyr
10-18-05, 12:44 PM
water
However, your case is a bit different, as it assumes the possibility that you and your friend are holding different (even mutually exclusive) beliefs.
In such a case, I would question the validity of considering that relationship to be friendship.

I think that people who have basically different ethical beliefs cannot be friends. (They sure can pretend it though.)What an incredibly romantic idea of friendship.

Are you suggesting that friendship is only possible between individuals with the exact same morals and beliefs?
I agree.

Now do you believe this is even possible?
And if it is…how boring to be the friend of someone that never challenges nor disagrees with you.

But unfortunately such precise agreements are not possible. Experiences and genetic dispositions force a distinctness which makes tolerance necessary.
The most that can be hoped for is a general agreement on broad principles, all of which are adopted usually from cultural sources.

This general agreement forces hypocrisy on the precise points.
One must also keep in mind that ethical codes impose themselves upon the human psyche and that underneath them lies the natural code of self-preservation and selfishness, which always takes precedence.

So much for intimacy. :rolleyes:

cosmictraveler
10-18-05, 02:13 PM
I think that people who have basically different ethical beliefs cannot be friends. (They sure can pretend it though.)

I have a friend that is almost my opposite in thinking in many instances. We have debated many things during our lives and his views have changed from listening to what I have explained. When we talk, I have always used the computer to verify things he states proving him wrong in many instances. I too found that I was wrong but that was in very few instances. I changed my thinking also about things when I found out I was wrong and he was right. So it isn't that people who think differently ethicly cannot get along, it is those who can't admit it when their wrong and change that are more apt to not get along.Whenever there are two opinions on something , someone is going to be wrong. The best friends tend to understand this and manage to learn to respect each other.

water
10-19-05, 04:32 AM
Satyr,



What an incredibly romantic idea of friendship.

Are you suggesting that friendship is only possible between individuals with the exact same morals and beliefs?
I agree.

Now do you believe this is even possible?

It is.
Imagine the friendship of two enlightened beings.


And if it is…how boring to be the friend of someone that never challenges nor disagrees with you.

Well, if you're in it for intellectual stimulation ...
If you're in it for the pure art of being, then it's different.
Some would say that I'm romanticizing, of course, but I don't pursue friendship for intellectual stimulation -- so my views are quite different from yours.

I want hugs and kisses!


* * *


cosmictraveler,



So it isn't that people who think differently ethicly cannot get along, it is those who can't admit it when their wrong and change that are more apt to not get along.

Being willing to admit that you've been wrong is still an ethical stance.


Whenever there are two opinions on something , someone is going to be wrong.

Not true. It all depends on the evidence each of them is working with.

water
10-19-05, 04:33 AM
Satyr, in roundabout, this is the basis for your position on dishonesty, right?


- People are out to get me so, I'll reject them before they reject me.

- Hard work, a clean life, and treating people fairly is a waste of time; it has never paid off for me.

- It is better to grin and bear it; I'll never get anywhere with an open, honest approach.

- What's done is done, so let it be.

- It's all a matter of politics: who you know and what you have to bow down to that determines your fate.

- It's who you know rather than what you are that determines your success.

- They are all alike; why try to win them over or be nice to them.

- It will never change; why try to alter the situation between me and them.

Satyr
10-19-05, 09:15 AM
No.
That is your interpretation of my position.

- People are out to get me so, I'll reject them before they reject me. Reject?
Rejection implies that complete acceptance is possible.

But beyond this where does the myth of intimacy exclude its partial enjoyment?

Furthermore “out to get me” implies that the duplicity I describe is always detrimental to me and that the other is motivated by the need to cause me harm.
Nowhere in my thesis have I stated such a thing.
Hypocrisy is not always meant to hurt.

- Hard work, a clean life, and treating people fairly is a waste of time; it has never paid off for me. Hard work and a clean life have to do with temperance and self-realization. Treating people “fairly” is statement with no definite meaning.
What is fairly?

- It is better to grin and bear it; I'll never get anywhere with an open, honest approach. It depends on the situation.
But even your hypothetical “honest approach” is just another form of dishonesty, whether you believe you are being honest or not.
Honesty usually means that the individual projects his self as he is aware of it or as he has understood it. This does not denote completeness or accuracy.
Furthermore nobody, even in those moments of “honesty” is ever being completely forthcoming

- What's done is done, so let it be. In relation to what?

- It's all a matter of politics: who you know and what you have to bow down to that determines your fate. Yes. Politics is the discipline of social interaction and inter-relating, and interconnectivity

- It's who you know rather than what you are that determines your success. In most cases yes. But this needs further clarification.

- They are all alike; why try to win them over or be nice to them. But “winning them over” and being “nice” is a political act.
It is diplomacy and it always entails a level of pretence.

- It will never change; why try to alter the situation between me and them. How do you propose to “change” things?

water
10-19-05, 09:49 AM
No.
That is your interpretation of my position.


One cannot but interpret.
But. You have stated a clear yes to some of the statements.
Here's (http://www.coping.org/anger/resent.htm#thinking) where I got them from.

Lucysnow
10-20-05, 06:35 AM
Water have you ever considered an apparence on Oprah? You're just as knee-jerk and banal in your responses. I'm sure you would earn great applause.


Satyr: In essence we are humouring the other by allowing them to believe that we are in agreement or that his world views are in accordance with our own.

Too true. A friend recently gave me two books which he had written and published. They were terrible, unreadable and he keeps asking for my opinion. I have remained silent but if he persists I will probably say something like it's very 'unique'. Yes I will offer him bullshit and spare him. If he were a young man I would have told him the truth but since he is retired and the books nothing more than a recent project I will allow him his delusions and preserve the relationship. He's lucky he earned enough money as an architect so he could publish himself and not receive all those rejections from publishers and agents.

Honesty: A relationship can only survive honesty if the revealed truth can be tolerated once assimilated. I told you the story of the woman who discovered her boyfriend had concealed a former relationship with a woman for whom he had purchased a house. The truth was revealed by someone outside the relationship. Now she cannot trust him. He is honest now but the lie has sullied and fractured the relationship. The fact that there probably was no overlap between the two relationships isn't the point, the seed of doubt has been sown. Full disclosure is possible only if we don't have any expectations of the other and there are always expectations. If we discover the unsightly and accept it its usually because they coincide with our own predilections, have other needs that override the truth (in which case we go into denial) or because we are completely indifferent. Its like sitting at a table in South East Asia listening to men talk about the brothels. In the West a grown man admitting to sleeping with a 12 or 14 year old girl would be completely taboo in most social settings but here its considered 'normal'. Here a man is even considered a 'hyprocite' if he openly opposes the practise on the grounds of morality. In settings where the bestial is allowed full regin even the most 'civilized' man begins to degenerate as his desires rise to the surface and can find full expression without social condemnation nor interference. In this sense the 'civilized' man within this setting has become...honest.

Satyr
10-20-05, 08:41 AM
water
One cannot but interpret.
But. You have stated a clear yes to some of the statements.And a clear no, to others.

In relation to “hard work” and “clean living”, what I’m talking about has little to do with it, unless you are saying that both depend on others.
A position you contradict in your “love has nothing to do with others” perspective.

As for “being taken” and “rejection” you express both with a negative slant.

Sometimes the other manipulates us, by exaggerating himself, not to harm us but to become more attractive to us and rejection is only important if your self-esteem and your well-being depend on others.
And it does, whether we want to believe so or not, in this “civilized’ world.


Lucysnow
Too true. A friend recently gave me two books which he had written and published. They were terrible, unreadable and he keeps asking for my opinion. I have remained silent but if he persists I will probably say something like it's very 'unique'. Yes I will offer him bullshit and spare him. If he were a young man I would have told him the truth but since he is retired and the books nothing more than a recent project I will allow him his delusions and preserve the relationship. He's lucky he earned enough money as an architect so he could publish himself and not receive all those rejections from publishers and agents.And that’s the dilemma, isn’t it?
Do we risk the relationship and whatever we gain from it – because all, yes all, relationships are based on market rules of give and take – do we preserve the illusion of purity and honesty by speaking our mind or by speaking our partial, carefully censored mind, and by trying to establish a more intimate connection- or do we just play along saving ourselves the struggle and doubt by simply allowing them to continue believing in what they already do, since it neither harms nor benefits us directly and since they cannot blame us for lying to them because we just agreed with them and judgment cannot be scanned for honesty?

I’ve told you about my “friend” George and his escapades in trying to make it in the entertainment industry.
Years back he was in his ‘music writing’ phase – that was just before his ‘script 'writing’ phase – and when I was over at his place he would always make me endure listening to his latest creation.
Some of it was average but most of it was techno-moody and bland.
Most of the time I would say nothing.
In those rare instances when he would ask me for my opinion, I would say, with a knot in my throat, “Ah, it’s interesting.” or “It’s good.”, never elaborating and showing very little emotion, since I’m a very bad actor.
Now, once in a while, I was faced with the moral dilemma of telling him what I really thought and trying to dissuade him from spending any more money at it or wasting any more time at it.
At this point he had spent over $20,000 on his “career”, and this subsequently resulted in his current bankruptcy with an over $40,000 debt.
This compounded by a gambling habit.

Given his, also, very sensitive ego and overall naïve character I decided to keep my mouth shut and just enjoy his escapades.
Thing about me is I can’t keep my mouth shut, as many have already noticed. So it was inevitable that some of my real opinions would slip out during the course of a 10 year friendship. Anyone knowing the general nature of my positions about life and culture would agree that they are not very attractive to dreamers and romantics.
George is such a dreamer and romantic, despite his intelligence. He even acknowledges that he is living in his own world and prefers it there. But then he blames all his failures and disappointments on others and never on this skewed perspective.

In time this caused a rift between us. He now prefers hanging out with those like him, lost in their hopes and exaggerated expectations.
Is this a preferred state?
It depends on the costs and the consequences.

So now I wonder, from a purely self-serving perspective: “Would it have been better if I had played along, more thoroughly, in his “reality” or was speaking my mind, to whatever degree I did, the better course?

Honesty: A relationship can only survive honesty if the revealed truth can be tolerated once assimilated. I told you the story of the woman who discovered her boyfriend had concealed a former relationship with a woman for whom he had purchased a house. The truth was revealed by someone outside the relationship. Now she cannot trust him. He is honest now but the lie has sullied and fractured the relationship. The fact that there probably was no overlap between the two relationships isn't the point, the seed of doubt has been sown. Full disclosure is possible only if we don't have any expectations of the other and there are always expectations. If we discover the unsightly and accept it its usually because they coincide with our own predilections, have other needs that override the truth (in which case we go into denial) or because we are completely indifferent. Its like sitting at a table in South East Asia listening to men talk about the brothels. In the West a grown man admitting to sleeping with a 12 or 14 year old girl would be completely taboo in most social settings but here its considered 'normal'. Here a man is even considered a 'hyprocite' if he openly opposes the practise on the grounds of morality. In settings where the bestial is allowed full regin even the most 'civilized' man begins to degenerate as his desires rise to the surface and can find full expression without social condemnation nor interference. In this sense the 'civilized' man within this setting has become...honest.But things need not reach such dramatic proportions.
A simple doubt or a derogatory opinion of the other can result in a small rift that can grow to a gaping chasm.
These chasms of Nothingness separating one mind from the other are tentatively bridged with illusion, exaggeration, insinuation and pretense.
If and when they are exposed for what they are, they dissipate in the emptiness, returning us to our isolation.

The other can never and will never perfectly adhere to our expectations and requirements.
In all cases a compromise is essential and an illusion becomes necessary. The extent of what we compromise and the breadth of the illusion are determined by our personal experiences, world views, self-evaluations and our enslavement to our instinctual needs.
For example an unattractive woman, or a woman lacking confidence, will be willing to compromise more of her principles to create a relationship with a man than an attractive woman, or a man, brought up in poverty, will be able to compromise more of his comforts to survive than a man brought up in wealth, who is unaccustomed to compromising.

In all things reason is the great emancipator from need. Yet, pushed to its extreme, reason can disconnect one from life and make him an outcast from his own being.
Balance. :bugeye:

Satyr
10-20-05, 09:02 AM
I don’t know if this has anything to do with the subject but here are some thoughts I jotted down one day, concerning NEED – Suffering < > Pleasure.

I believe need is the underlying essence of all living and so all relationships, sexual, friendly, work, casual, can be connected back to it.


> Life is a symptom of instability. It is a self-cohesion, perceiving itself as a singularity, in search for its own constancy either through a return to a larger whole {God, Perfection, Love, Source, Self} or through its absorption of the whole into its own unity thusly making the whole and the self a tautology {Dominance, Control, Power, Assimilation, Absorption Knowledge}. These represent the two opposing strategies of self-realization in man, exemplified through memetic ideals, morals and ideologies.

> Universal flux is the consequence of an absence; the absence of order/perfection/stability/harmony. Life is created in this flux and so mirrors this universal disorder/imperfection/instability/disharmony in search for its conclusion. It feels this growing entropic imperfection/instability/disorder/disharmony as Need.

> Life is defined by its resistance to death. It is the act of not dying; differentiated from it by its effort in seeking out its own being, as opposed to the effortlessness of non-being.

> Consciousness, as a product of life, may not be aware of the totality it participates within or it may be forever condemned to be ignorant about the whole, but it is a reflection of the universe and of reality and so can sense the wholeness and know it intuitively, by becoming aware of the individual self which is a particle in a greater unity. Space/Time, therefore may not be a precise interpretation of what IS and reason might be limited and prejudiced by biological necessities, personal perspective and environmental/cultural conditions, but they represents symbolizations of actual phenomena interpreted by the mind in a comprehensible manner. Comprehension isn’t literal, it is symbolic.

> Life is a reaction against entropic decay. An experimental/accidental unity – depending on your metaphysical perspective - struggling against temporal attrition; animated matter seeking its own completeness; order fighting disorder by becoming more efficient in the utilization of its energies and by creating a barrier between itself and the infinite chaotic unknown so that a self-contained pocket of order/stability can be attempted, protected and allowed to grow into an all encompassing healer of disease or as a connector back to its source.

> Life’s individual expressions of incompleteness are characterized by their dependence on external resources.{External in relation to their self-contained, self-limiting, self-defining, self-aware, I} They absorb the elements, that are similar to them, which can then be used to repair the effects of entropic decay on their temporary unity and they assimilate the elements that can conclude their becoming into a final being by growing {absorbing similar elements into a larger unity} or by adapting {changing} in relation to altering environments. This “survival of the fittest” exterminates failed attempts at stability, under specific, constantly altering conditions/environments by absorbing them into stronger unities, better able to resist entropic effects and in search for a final solution.

> Evolution is life experimenting with multiple forms in search for the most stable one under the constantly altering reality of the flux. It is the testing of individual creations. Since the flux is, presumably, unending, evolution can never attain its final end.

> Need is life, life is need. These concepts are tautologies. Life is the state of constant needing.

> Need is an expression of entropic decay. It is matter {Time/Space interaction} expressing its instability and imperfection through animation. It is action caused by a void

> Need is the expression of instability in matter. Its fundamental motive is survival/satiation/immortality. Existence is space struggling against time to reach timelessness.

> There are primary needs {those with immediate connections to survival/continuance} and secondary {those with indirect connections to survival/continuance}. Primary needs are ceaseless and crucial. Secondary needs are primary needs redirected into intermediating, sublimated ones.

> Need is constant- just like light and heat require constant fuel, life requires constant vigilance against external invasions and temporal decay and constant feeding, constant energy flow. This requirement exposes life’s rareness against the norm. Life is effort personified.

> Satiation is a myth. Need is constant in that it expresses life’s continual struggle to resist disassociation and disorder. The myth is caused by misinterpreting the availability of a desired resource and Need's ephemeral placation, into imperceptible levels, with its complete absence. An organism is maintained by a constant flow of energy. Either by breathing, or feeding, or maintaining self-cohesion, or – in higher life forms – in the continuance of thought creating consciousness. An organism is effort necessitated by constant Need.

> Desire/Want is the focus of Need upon a resource/object. When the Need is a primary one the focus upon the object desired is direct and uncompromising. When it is a secondary Need it is compromising and indirect.

> In higher life forms biological sophistication has made it possible to store fuel and hydration to meet primary Needs. Through this strategy need is constantly fed resources, the focus of its unceasing desire. The primary Need’s constancy is kept at bay by providing a store of resources to draw from. The stomach and the camel’s hump are both examples of evolutionary sophistication resulting in the storage of resources within the body, as to make them readily available to Need’s constant requirements.

> When the resource is easily and immediately available, such as in the case of air/oxygen, there is no necessity for storage – unless like in whales its survival is dependant on a prolonged, willful disconnection from the attainable resource of oxygen. The Need is placated constantly and immediately preventing it from becoming conscious unless one focuses the mind upon it, through meditation, or the immediacy of the resource is somehow blocked.

> Lower life forms, lacking a brain, are reactionary in that they are Need reacting to resources in its environment. Higher life forms, those with a brain, can direct, plan and strategize their reactions. They can become more efficient.

> Suffering is Need interpreted by the mind. It is the brain interpreting its own essence as that of animated Need/incompleteness.

> Pleasure is a negative state, in that it is an expression of the temporary unawareness of suffering. The sensation of pleasure, whether it is sudden reaching an orgasmic release, or gradual, felt as a slow mellow contentment, is the mind being freed from the awareness of its Need before a new one takes its place. To put it plainly, pleasure is the absence of the absence - A double negative resulting in a positive.

But all positive states - as they are labeled by the human mind- require effort: Heat, Order, Light, Life, and so demand energy derived from assimilating and absorbing and consuming other elements into their becoming. For this reason they are tentative, exceptions in a universe declining into dissolution, either destined to cease in a slow deterioration or to reach a limit which will reverse its direction.

> The mind is a tool meant to facilitate the placation of Need. As such it is an arbitrator deciding which Need takes precedence, and planning, foreseeing, and anticipating Need before it reaches conscious awareness as discomfort > suffering > pain.

> The mind either functions as an interpreter of sensual stimulations, reacting to them, in relation to them as arbitrator of Need, or it can become a more sophisticated tool, creating models of reality, becoming self-aware, and being able to project this self through the mental abstractions of reality into a possible future, by using experiential data {experience} or inherited experiential data {knowledge} to make the placation of Need more efficient.
The mind need not experience Need as suffering to react to it but can now foresee and plan its placation {pleasure} beforehand.

> Anticipation of pleasure is only possible for creatures with higher brain functions {imagination, abstraction}. Suffering is a motivating factor in any action, but in creatures with higher brain functions pleasure is also a motivating factor in that it urges action by promising a release from Need, even if it has not reached the level of consciousness yet. More sophisticated biological forms do not exist only in relation to their past and present, but can project themselves into a historical past – before their existence - and into their possible future – by using the imagination.

> The mind’s purpose in life is best exemplified by how it abstracts reality using incomplete awareness so as to foresee suffering and plan for it or avoid it by feeding the Need causing it before it reaches uncomfortable levels. The mind can learn, by storing experiences into memory or by sharing experiences with other minds through communication. Therefore the creature need not burn itself by fire and simply react to suffering caused by the Need for self-cohesion, but it can foresee its own suffering and avoid it or minimize it.

> Anticipation often heightens pleasure by imagining it before hand or by preparing the body, by heightening its energies, in preparation for it. Thusly the Need for nutrition can result in an excited preparatory stage before the hunt. Sex goes through a similar preparatory stage, where the body is prepared for the energy expenditure of the deed through anticipation, by heightening the sensual awareness of stimuli and energizing the body through excitement.

> Sex is a secondary Need in that a creature can, theoretically :D , survive as a celibate being. Secondary Needs are often an amalgamation of multiple needs finding a single focus {desire}. Here we find not only the need for ejaculation {orgasm} but the need for belonging within a unity. Multiple secondary Needs are fulfilled through sexual interaction which is more than just the act of fornication. For men there is also the element of dominance and power, whereas with women the element of submission and the completion of a greater self through unity, participate in the act. Sexual need is also a secondary one due to its compromise. The entire self does not survive through this survival strategy but, due to the necessity of adaptation and also due to some limitation to cellular division, only a partial replication of the self – combining with that of another – is possible. Often an individual might participate in unities where only a dominant pair procreates, and they only act as supportive elements, sharing a percentage of the pair’s genetic self which is being replicated. This compromise makes the strategy of procreation through intercourse a more muted Need.

> Suffering is creative, in that it forces the mind, through its attempt to avoid it and prevent it and minimize it, into ingenuity. Progress is the result of Need trying to find its final satiation. Where there is no absence, no completeness is sought. Where there is no weakness, no strength is sought. Where there is no instability no stability is sought.

> Hedonism is only possible in environments with a surplus of resources. In other words, in environments where Need is prevented from reaching any uncomfortable level of suffering. It, inevitably results in decadence, since it is a state of inertia. Pleasure being a negative state, is also a state of inaction. The contented mind - as much as this is possible in our universe - is characterized by the placation of its interpretation of Need {Suffering}. It is lacking ambition and motive to act.

> In essence hedonism focuses on the temporary state of liberation from the conscious awareness of Need {suffering}. It becomes addicted to the momentary release. The mind senses it as its emancipation from its resistance by surrendering to its purpose and as a momentary release of its energies from its demands.

> In the moment of extreme pleasure the mind is rewarded for its efforts and sufferings by being, momentarily, freed from them, before a new Need refocuses its desires through suffering. This temporary state is felt as an emancipation, as a release from its boundaries of purpose. It is, in fact, the death wish {death being the state of no need} finding a focus through desire while still preserving survival. . Godliness experienced by mortal beings. To be and not be simultaneously.

> Asceticism is reason dominating over Need, even if temporarily in relation to primary Needs, or through total denial, in relation to secondary Needs. It is the mind escaping Need, not through submitting to it, as in the case of hedonism, but by controlling and dominating it.

> Extreme asceticism is also an inert state, in that by dominating and denying Need {partially} it becomes unmotivated by suffering and its temporary placation through pleasure.

> Controlled asceticism is a more efficient usage of physical and mental energies, in that it chooses desires and controls Need by directing or focusing it into creative paths resulting in deeper and longer pleasure.

water
10-20-05, 09:46 AM
Sartre et. al. aren't really dead yet, but I'm out of this.

Xev
10-23-05, 10:39 PM
Wow, this place is still filled with stupid charlatans trying to justify their pointless lives.

(Not you water)

GodlessEvil
10-23-05, 10:47 PM
I started reading it, but my eyes got tired and i fell asleep, that is the honest truth, no bullshit, i actually fucking fell asleep LOL.

I've copied and pasted everything you said into my hard drive, so that if i ever find myself struggling to get sleep, ill boot up my laptop.

Thanks.

Raithere
10-23-05, 11:44 PM
Too true. A friend recently gave me two books which he had written and published. They were terrible, unreadable and he keeps asking for my opinion. I have remained silent but if he persists I will probably say something like it's very 'unique'. Yes I will offer him bullshit and spare him.

In those rare instances when he would ask me for my opinion, I would say, with a knot in my throat, “Ah, it’s interesting.” or “It’s good.”, never elaborating and showing very little emotion, since I’m a very bad actor. It strikes me that part of the problem with honesty lies in perceiving the real question.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of you took these peoples questions at face value when it is unlikely they were actually looking for a critique of their work. They'll certainly get enough of that if they decided to try and publish. What they're actually looking for is validation from a friend. The question probably wasn't, "please critique my work" as much as it was "I put my heart into this and am seeking validation". Certainly as a friend you can find some aspect of their work that you can comment positively upon even if you think the work as a whole isn't good. You come off feeling like a hypocrite or hurting your friend's feelings because you're not assessing the question properly.

~Raithere

URI
10-24-05, 01:05 AM
>> Tell someone what he likes to believe is true and he/she will love you, tell them something that confronts their perspective of reality and you set yourself up to be Tell someone what he likes to believe is true and he/she will love you, tell them something that confronts their perspective of reality and you set yourself up to be ostracized and excluded like a cancerous cell.
>>>


alive and well on every science forum in the world.

When will people ever learn....

This "popularisation of myths" instead of science reality is the death of science....
and this especially applies to the so called "scientists" of the United States.

Take heart, this science degrading process has happened many times in history, only to be successfully challenged by some reality driven nut case.

Meanwhile most famous scientists, usually by their own choice, were "ostracized and excluded like a cancerous cell" from the general rabble.

Hagar
10-24-05, 06:17 PM
I don’t know if this has anything to do with the subject but here are some thoughts I jotted down one day, concerning NEED – Suffering < > Pleasure.


Pleasure is also the state in which one becomes disconnected from, or forgets ones self. This is due to the fact that need is temporarily absent and thus conscious awareness is unnecessary and absent. I might be a bit off, but I think it was Schopenhauer who came up with the concept of such pleasure states. There were three pathways to this highest form of contentment in his model: orgasm, religious ecstasy, and music.

I agree with the overall conclusion that pleasure is a negative property in that our body seeks it to find fullfillment but ultimately breaks down to a lower state of energy because of a lack of resistance. Thus TRUE contentment comes not from mindless hedonism but from self-reflection and self-appraisal at accomplished feats.

Satyr
10-25-05, 09:08 AM
Hagar
Pleasure is also the state in which one becomes disconnected from, or forgets ones self. This is due to the fact that need is temporarily absent and thus conscious awareness is unnecessary and absent. I might be a bit off, but I think it was Schopenhauer who came up with the concept of such pleasure states. There were three pathways to this highest form of contentment in his model: orgasm, religious ecstasy, and music. There is an element of liberty in pleasure; a momentary release from the mind's physical burden, an abandonment of purpose.
Suffering, being the interpretation of universal turmoil, distracts the mind with its purpose – it imposes itself on its instrument - but in that sudden release, before the mind connects to another need, the sensation of boundlessness, of rising above, is felt by the mind a pleasure.

I agree with the overall conclusion that pleasure is a negative property in that our body seeks it to find fullfillment but ultimately breaks down to a lower state of energy because of a lack of resistance. Thus TRUE contentment comes not from mindless hedonism but from self-reflection and self-appraisal at accomplished feats.Feats made meaningful by the mind itself.
The mind finding solace in its own creations and evaluations.
A piece of chaotic reality ordered within the mind.

Oniw17
11-18-06, 02:35 PM
Wow...

SoLiDUS
11-18-06, 04:11 PM
Cliffs?

Oh, and can I participate in this wonderful circle-jerk of intellectual masturbation? ;)