So I decide one night that I want to read the Book of Mormon. Why? Because I don't know much about Mormonism other than that Jesus came to America shortly after his resurrection and so you can't drink, can't jack off, blah blah.
   So I ask around. I find a friend who has the BoM and she lets me borrow it. It seems to be your standard BoM: it's annotated with little notes about what certain passages refer to; it has the additional Mormon writings (The Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price); and it has a pronunciation guide in the middle and an extensive index in the back. Pretty nifty.

   I start reading it, naturally starting in the beginning with the First Book of Nephi. Seems to be about how this one guy Nephi's dad saw Jesus in a vision six hundred years before his birth, and about how Nephi himself saw the rough spiritual history of the people living in the Americas. It's interesting.
   But I can't help but notice some problems with the language of the book. Everything else aside, "it came to pass that" the book was growing "exceedingly" redundant as I read on, about which I spake unto others in my "manners of language". And what's a 19th-century guy like Smith writing in 16th-century English for?
   I predict that the book will take me a while to read. So I start thinking about how I can get myself a free BoM so that my friend can have her copy back sometime before I die.

   So I walk down to the nearby LDS church one Sunday morning, right? I figured there was the place to get a free BoM. Here's the basic gist of the conversation I have with an Elder at the church:

Athelwulf: "Yeah, uh, I heard I can get a free Book of Mormon here..."
Elder: "Yeah, sure, here you go. *Hands Athelwulf free copy of BoM*"

   I somehow expected there to be more of a challenge. I mean, you aren't usually just given something, even if you ask for it nicely. You know, they might've needed to talk to the Bishop or something, tried to work out a deal, pulled a few strings, taken advantage of some favors owed to them... But not in the LDS church, apparently.
   No matter though. At least I have a free BoM. That's mine. And mine is that free BoM.

   I noticed something about my copy: inside, it looks identical to the copy I'm borrowing from my friend. Mine includes paintings of Jesus and Joseph Smith and all, and mine's missing the other two Mormon writings – but I could scan any given page from both, and you would not be able to tell the difference. I guess that's organized religion for ya.

   But anyway, I'm rambling. Let's talk about the BoM. The old thread seems to have died, and it's very long. I think a fresh thread would be in order. Is that guy Brutus still here, by the way? It would be great if we still had our resident Mormon to contribute to the thread.

I obtained a free BoM from some website. I tried to ask Mormons why these people in America were using Jesus' name and being far more specific than the prophets of the middle east.

I obtained a free BoM from some website. I tried to ask Mormons why these people in America were using Jesus' name and being far more specific than the prophets of the middle east.
My guess, if I understand you, is because it was written after the "fact", and so he could actually be referred to by name.

How many dealers have you worked with, Athel? Don't you know that the first hit is always free? Even Scientologists will give you a free "personality profile", though that's almost always just a trap for them to throw an advertisement at you, saying you need their special auditing therapy for hundreds of dollars an hour.

How many dealers have you worked with, Athel? Don't you know that the first hit is always free? Even Scientologists will give you a free "personality profile", though that's almost always just a trap for them to throw an advertisement at you, saying you need their special auditing therapy for hundreds of dollars an hour.
Every hit I've had was free. ;) :D

I remember taking that personality test. I don't remember the results. But yeah, you're pretty much right about that.

From my little expose to the BoM, it seems that as a "holy book" it is the least grounded in reality, or the hardest to even interpret with rational ideas.

The Bible (Christian or Jewish) might refer to miracles, but they are easily demystified as man's recorded reaction to nature. I know even less about the Quran, so I won't try to interpret. But it seems that you can take any drunken man, have him tell you his wildest dreams, of course throwing in his crazy sex driven desires, and you can duplicate (in kind) the BoM.

Just my opinion.

Max

Two neatly dressed people delivered mine to me one sunny day for free. Have you ever been to their indoctrination centers? I did once, and they put me in this little movie theater and showed some unbelievable stuff. It all seems to be easily discounted by anthropologists and DNA testing, but whatever, they are mostly nice people.

My favorite character in the BoM is Korihor, the guy who doubts. I don't think the people that gave it to me would appreciate that.

So I walk down to the nearby LDS church one Sunday morning, right? I figured there was the place to get a free BoM. Here's the basic gist of the conversation I have with an Elder at the church:

Athelwulf: "Yeah, uh, I heard I can get a free Book of Mormon here..."
Elder: "Yeah, sure, here you go. *Hands Athelwulf free copy of BoM*"

I somehow expected there to be more of a challenge. I mean, you aren't usually just given something, even if you ask for it nicely. You know, they might've needed to talk to the Bishop or something, tried to work out a deal, pulled a few strings, taken advantage of some favors owed to them... But not in the LDS church, apparently.

Mmm.
I got the KJV Bible as well.

However, I had eventually burnt both the BofM and the KJV Bible.
That was my own private Holy Inquisition. The flames went high.


I noticed something about my copy: inside, it looks identical to the copy I'm borrowing from my friend. Mine includes paintings of Jesus and Joseph Smith and all, and mine's missing the other two Mormon writings – but I could scan any given page from both, and you would not be able to tell the difference. I guess that's organized religion for ya.

All English editions (that are in use) have the same pagination. It's all quite wonderfully done, you can't miss anything.

They also have a special edition for the elderly, the size of A4 with letters the size of 12 or 14 points, so it's easy to read.


But anyway, I'm rambling. Let's talk about the BoM.

It filled me with anger.

I read the BofM, studiously, underlined, made comments, I used to know many passages by heart. And I prayed, like it says in the end -- and nothing happened. A few months later, I burnt the things.

My favourite character was Enos, I was reminded of Job. I saw myself in that. But I despaired, I didn't feel like waiting all my life for that special moment -- while in the meantime, doing as if I believed.

Athelwulf

Just came across this new post. I'm glad you had no problem getting your copy of the Book of Mormon. Missionaries are happy to give them out. Now as far as getting all the books in one, you might be able to get one through the local bishop or purchase one somewhere.

Some people wonder why the book of Mormon is written in old English, the same as the Bible. Remember the book of Mormon is a translation of ancient writings into English. Joseph Smith chose to use the King James Version style language to translate the gold plates because that is the language he associated with scripture. Obviously that is not the style they actually spoke in BOM times, the same as Jesus did not speak in old English either.

As for the BOM people using the name of Jesus Christ before he was born, we do not know weather they knew of the name Jesus or not. They could have called him the Messiah, Jehovah or whatever. When Joseph Smith came across a character referring to Jesus he may very well have used that name because he knew who the people were referring to.

Keep up the reading and pray about it. That is the only true way you can come to know whether the Book of Mormon is the word of God or not.

Show me the plates, and I'll consider it.

Spidergoat.

Faith must come before absolute knowledge, otherwise it wouldn't benefit you anyway.

There are plenty of books I would like to burn. We should all have a large book burning party.

So if I had faith, I could see them? What if I was a Christian interested in Mormonism, but I wasn't sure?

Brutus, thanks for coming by my thread.

Now as far as getting all the books in one, you might be able to get one through the local bishop or purchase one somewhere.
I can certainly look into that, because honestly, I feel sorta gypped because I didn't get the D&C and PoGP. It's not a tragety, but it would've been nice to have all the LDS canonical writings for myself.

Some people wonder why the book of Mormon is written in old English, the same as the Bible. Remember the book of Mormon is a translation of ancient writings into English. Joseph Smith chose to use the King James Version style language to translate the gold plates because that is the language he associated with scripture. Obviously that is not the style they actually spoke in BOM times, the same as Jesus did not speak in old English either.
That makes sense. I wonder, however, about the redundant language. It's not all that bad really, but a few passages really jump out at me for their redundancies. I'll give two here:
<Blockquote><Small>1 Nephi 9:2 &mdash; And now, as I have spoken concerning these plates, behold they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people; for the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; wherefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, after mine own name; and these plates also are called the plates of Nephi.

1 Nephi 18:2 &mdash; Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.</Small></Blockquote>
As for the BOM people using the name of Jesus Christ before he was born, we do not know weather they knew of the name Jesus or not. They could have called him the Messiah, Jehovah or whatever. When Joseph Smith came across a character referring to Jesus he may very well have used that name because he knew who the people were referring to.
This also makes sense.

What you said to me and to spidergoat interests me:
Keep up the reading and pray about it. That is the only true way you can come to know whether the Book of Mormon is the word of God or not.Faith must come before absolute knowledge, otherwise it wouldn't benefit you anyway.
Why is that?

water,

I got the KJV Bible as well.

However, I had eventually burnt both the BofM and the KJV Bible.
That was my own private Holy Inquisition. The flames went high.
I guess Bible paper is extremely flamable? :p I wonder what it's made from. It's so thin. It has a different texture, even a different smell.

All English editions (that are in use) have the same pagination. It's all quite wonderfully done, you can't miss anything.
Standardization has its perks.

It filled me with anger.

I read the BofM, studiously, underlined, made comments, I used to know many passages by heart. And I prayed, like it says in the end -- and nothing happened. A few months later, I burnt the things.
I wouldn't burn my copies; I want them for reference.

My favourite character was Enos, I was reminded of Job. I saw myself in that. But I despaired, I didn't feel like waiting all my life for that special moment -- while in the meantime, doing as if I believed.
I wish I could read that thing faster, so I can figure out my favorite character.

I remember kids thinking they were cool because they used to rip up bibles or light bibles on fire. It's amazing that these young kids had so much hatred for religion at that age. It must have been their parents or something instilling them with anti-religious bigotry.

Athelwulf

Thanks for responding.

The style of writing is called Chiasimus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiasmus) and is present in many ancient Hebrew and Greek documents. It is a poetic style where you end a sentence by repeating the beginning only in opposite order. The Old Testament contains many examples of it. Such as Genesis 9:6: "Whoever sheds The blood of Man, By Man shall His blood be shed."

A good article about Chiasmus in the book of Mormon read Jeff Lindsay's (http://www.jefflindsay.com/chiasmus.shtml) article about it.

Some have suggested that the fact Chiasmus is contained in the BOM is evidence of it's authenticity since the writing style was not well known in the days of Joseph Smith.

Spidergoat

Faith may not make you physically see the plates but it would lead you to a knowledge of their truthfullness. Faith is like a seed. It must be planted and taken care of. It takes time to build faith into absolute knowledge. Sometimes it can take a lifetime. Faith as small as a mustard seed will go along way. Jesus said it is enough to command a mountain to move.

He could have been influenced by the Bible though where that style was contained, right?

Arkantos

It is a possibility that Joseph Smith's use of Chiasmus was inadvertant in his translation of from the ancient record. But the amount contained in the Book of Mormon suggests the style was contained in the original record and not encorperated into the BOM by Smith, just like the Chiasmus came out while the Bible was being translated from Greek and Hebrew into Old English. While the Bible was being translated the style very well could have also been added inadvertanlty. Either way it is evidence of the Book of Mormon having been a translation of an ancient document rather just made up out of whole cloth.

Brutus,

The style of writing is called Chiasimus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiasmus) and is present in many ancient Hebrew and Greek documents. It is a poetic style where you end a sentence by repeating the beginning only in opposite order. The Old Testament contains many examples of it. Such as Genesis 9:6: "Whoever sheds The blood of Man, By Man shall His blood be shed."

A good article about Chiasmus in the book of Mormon read Jeff Lindsay's (http://www.jefflindsay.com/chiasmus.shtml) article about it.
That's pretty neat. And I can see chiasmus in the passages that are given at that site. However, the parts of the BoM I have in mind don't read like chiasmi. Chiasmus, it appears, isn't redundant because it doesn't state the exact same idea more than once. For example, Gen. 9:6 shows reciprocation and thus states two separate ideas; the latter half of 1 Ne. 9:2 just says they're the plates of Nephi more than once, and not even in reverse order. It just looks like needless repetition to me.

I'm sorry that I'm being too nit-picky since it's only two verses that I've found so far, but I was just curious about it.

Either way it is evidence of the Book of Mormon having been a translation of an ancient document rather just made up out of whole cloth.
Not necessarily. If chiasmus can be originally produced by Nephi, it could be originally produced by Mr. Smith.

I wouldn't burn my copies; I want them for reference.


Beware of clutter.

Spidergoat

Faith may not make you physically see the plates but it would lead you to a knowledge of their truthfullness. Faith is like a seed. It must be planted and taken care of. It takes time to build faith into absolute knowledge. Sometimes it can take a lifetime. Faith as small as a mustard seed will go along way. Jesus said it is enough to command a mountain to move.

But *you* are so much better off than the rest of us, right?!
Because you *already* know what is true, while we don't, right?

I meant if I had faith, would I be allowed to see them? Are the elders allowed to see them? Relics are often treasured in religion and shown off, why aren't these?

Come on, Brutus, there are no plates and you know it.

The plates were taken back by the angel Moroni after Joseph Smith finished translating them. Three witnesses were able to touch the plates and 10 witnesses were able to view them. Their testimonies are printed in every copy of the BOM. None denied what they had seen even after some had left the church.

They plates were not meant to be "shown off". They were meant to be translated into what is now the Book of Mormon.

Brutus, did you overlook my post, or do you simply have no response to it?

Let's talk about the BoM.
The BoM, like the bible is a fictional account of history. As I have proven here before Mormonism is false and is invalidated by Genetics. Specifically the BoM has been invalidated by genetic research. Plug this into your media player
http://easylink.playstream.com/jeremy/mormonchallenge/haplogroupxdsl.wvx
See also
http://www.mormonchallenge.com/streaming.htm

Ich habe heute ein deutsches Buch Mormon in der Post bekommen. I got a German Book of Mormon in the mail today. I ordered it from Amazon.com. It was so cheap too; in fact, the shipping and handling was over three times the price of the book itself. :bugeye:

It seems to be pretty much like the English BoM. It seems to be a direct translation, which is helpful for me as a learner of German. Consequently, the apparent repetitiveness has carried over into the German translation; for example, "Und es begab sich" for every "And it came to pass".

Trilairian, I've seen mention of that evidence that the BoM is a fake. It's fascinating. You'd think that evidence would make people wake up, but I guess most are too faithful to their religion to do that.

IF YOUR looking for mormons who know their stuff... and have un shakable faith... and can explain it all....

http://forum.newsregister.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=religion

this forum.... never diappoints... as the resisdent Mormons... really seem to be dedicated mormons... as much as that is possible.

-MT

IF YOUR looking for mormons who know their stuff... and have un shakable faith... and can explain it all....

http://forum.newsregister.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=religion

this forum.... never diappoints... as the resisdent Mormons... really seem to be dedicated mormons... as much as that is possible.

-MT
Oooh, that forum is in my state.

Thanks for the link. It should be very useful.

IF YOUR looking for mormons who know their stuff... and have un shakable faith... and can explain it all....

http://forum.newsregister.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=religion

this forum.... never diappoints... as the resisdent Mormons... really seem to be dedicated mormons... as much as that is possible.

-MT
You mean explain away it all.

we dont get morons here in england, (haha i just noticed the typo but im going to keep it),

i have seen the episode of south park where they diss mormons, and if that south park episode is correct then thats funny shit,


so whats the deal is the southpark episode right witht he details, if so are they any mormons here?


peace.

i have seen the episode of south park where they diss mormons, and if that south park episode is correct then thats funny shit,

so whats the deal is the southpark episode right witht he details, if so are they any mormons here?
From what I've been told by a couple friends (one of whom grew up Mormon), and from what I know so far, the creators of South Park weren't far off.

[QUTOE=Athelwulf]From what I've been told by a couple friends (one of whom grew up Mormon), and from what I know so far, the creators of South Park weren't far off.[/QUOTE]
Well, if your friend grew up Mormon, that implies they aren't anymore. This means they switched religions, or they became atheist. So that means they must have some sort of animosity toward mormonisn. Saying that South Park was pretty accurate is their way of affirming their views. You should take your information from an unbiased source.

What source would you suggest?

You mean explain away it all.

unfortunately... yes...

but they are very good at it. and they take blows from the opposition like prize fighters....

-MT

so what southpark said was more or less correct about what mormons believe?


if so thats funny shit,


peace.

Hello, I am extremely new to this forum, but I thought I'd take the liberty of popping in and mentioning that another Mormon has joined the ranks of sciforums intellectuals. Now, forgive me if my knowledge in some subjects is a bit uncultivated as of yet, I am only seventeen years old.

However, this being said, perhaps I can at least stand to answer such questions as I have had experiance with concerning Mormonism.

By the way... please realize that we Mormons do not all mindlessly try to 'explain away' any doubts raised as to our religion. Some of us are well learned in not only the inner workings of our own church, but in the ideas of other beliefs as well. Our explainations are as real to us as your logic is to you, and is the result of fervant study of the scriptures, prayer, and perhaps even inferance.

Don't think we are mindless, headstrong, brainwashed zombies just because we have an answer for challenges. Some would claim to know exactly what happened with Joseph Smith almost two hundred years ago better than others. None of us were there, so who can say which of the conflicting records was the truer? I suppose we can only look at the fruits of that effort and decide for ourselves whether Joseph was a fraud or not. Evidence seems to point to 'no', in my opinion.

Thank you for being open minded, as always. :)

In my experience, Mormons are very admirable people. Hard workers, patriotic, polite, helpful. It almost makes me want to convert. But that whole story with the plates just seems fishy.

By the way Sciforum's Mormons, how accurate was that South Park episode? It was in keeping with what little I knew about Mormons. By the way, Mormons have also been mentioned in South Park in other episodes as the only ones allowed into heaven.

I'm not a Mormon, but I've read up on it, and the South Park episode was completely accurate. It was actually mocking in how truthful it was.

I'm not a Mormon, but I've read up on it, and the South Park episode was completely accurate. It was actually mocking in how truthful it was.


I have had no exposure to this religion prior to the south park episode, and I was not surprised how ridiculous the origins appear (hence the disclaimer on the show "This is what Mormons actually believe". On a slightly related note, have a look at the south park scientology episode, the beliefs therein are even more fanciful.

Personally, I think religions are political tools of crowd control. Mormonism was probably invented as a bolster to traditional biblical "revelations". That is - having a different origin written in that BoM with similar results as christianity strengthens the christian belief system as a whole.

I'm not a Mormon, but I've read up on it, and the South Park episode was completely accurate. It was actually mocking in how truthful it was.

I have not seen the South Park episode in question (as a Mormon I tend to stay away from excessive profanity...), but although the material may be closely based upon Mormon teachings, I have a feeling there may be exaggerations or over-simplifications involved. For instance, Mormons do not believe that they are the only ones allowed into heaven.

Also, it is not always reliable to read up on Mormonism, because there are a lot of falsehoods out there posing as real and actual fact. Be careful where you get your sources, because even those coming from ex-Mormons are often warped to distort doctrine. :rolleyes:

Once you get into it, the BOM turns out to be a pretty decent read. If you look at it from the perspective of fantasy-genre, it does have some interesting perspectives from several different and lasting characters. As much as my beliefs have changed over the years, I still do enjoy a good yarn and the BOM has these in abundance.

If you get can get past the redundant language (and yes, the chiasmus in there can be a good treat) and get to some of the juicier parts (Abinadi, Korihor, Brother of Jared, Moroni's last days), man it makes for some good late-night reading.

If you try to take the book's lessons and apply them in a strictly black&white fashion or have a desire to join the church, you will be ultimately disappointed. The kinds of experiences you'll read about in the book have no relative correlation with life in the church. Still, for those like Brutus1964 and Klavon, they obviously mean well; their intention is not to lead you astray (quite the opposite, in their minds!), but you would find church life to be as stagnant as you can imagine.

I've read basically everything Mormon-related. I've read the BOM about 10 times (though I don't read it anymore), the KJV Bible at least twice and D&C countless times. And of course, most of the other publications by their apostles through the years. A lot of it is good stuff and worth checking out, but not checking in.

Once you get into it, the BOM turns out to be a pretty decent read. If you look at it from the perspective of fantasy-genre, it does have some interesting perspectives from several different and lasting characters. As much as my beliefs have changed over the years, I still do enjoy a good yarn and the BOM has these in abundance.

If you get can get past the redundant language (and yes, the chiasmus in there can be a good treat) and get to some of the juicier parts (Abinadi, Korihor, Brother of Jared, Moroni's last days), man it makes for some good late-night reading.

If you try to take the book's lessons and apply them in a strictly black&white fashion or have a desire to join the church, you will be ultimately disappointed. The kinds of experiences you'll read about in the book have no relative correlation with life in the church. Still, for those like Brutus1964 and Klavon, they obviously mean well; their intention is not to lead you astray (quite the opposite, in their minds!), but you would find church life to be as stagnant as you can imagine.

I've read basically everything Mormon-related. I've read the BOM about 10 times (though I don't read it anymore), the KJV Bible at least twice and D&C countless times. And of course, most of the other publications by their apostles through the years. A lot of it is good stuff and worth checking out, but not checking in.

It does have some great parts! :)

You know, this may be just the biased opinion of a Mormon convert, but I am not disappointed at all with my experiances in this church. In fact, I hardly know what you mean by the statement, it was not very clear. The church orginization itself is lively and friendly and dynamic, and it has bred within me a sense of service to others and general sense of purpose. Certainly there has been nothing harmful or deceitful taught to me.

As for the more spiritual aspect of the church, I have had experiences much like those of the people in the Book of Mormon. I do not profess to have seen visions, or been rebuked by an angel, but the results of my explorations in the realms of prayer, service, faith, and yes, even so called 'iniquity' or 'unrighteousness' have all proven accurately cooincidental with the writings in the Book of Mormon. The book is true in my eyes not necissarily because of the stories it tells, but because I can see my own feelings and experiances reflected in the writings of another human being or beings. Even if Joseph Smith did make it up, he sure as heck had a pretty good idea of what the spirit feels like and what it does to someone. Pretty good work for a farmer with a third grade education... But that's not the point I'm getting at. :rolleyes:

Like you, I was a convert as well (at the age of 12). The fellowshipping that my ward did at the time was purely phenomenal, basically unsurpassed by any I've witnessed since that time (not to me, but to others I've known).

The disappointment is usually dependent on how much you want to get out of or understand about the church. If you're okay with topical subjects (faith, baptism, repentance, etc.) then you shouldn't expect any problems down the road. If you're a naturally inquisitive person (and being a convert kind of classifies you in this category, for better or worse), and want to delve deeper into the inner workings, you *will* come across things that you will either have to a) put on the back burner and think God will answer those someday, or b) find the answers for those things yourself. As always, the choice is up to you.

You're right, the spiritual aspect of the church or the BoM are decidedly different things than the dogmatic principles and laws governing its members. Listening or participating in a hymn during sacrament meeting is a fantastic way to "commune" with the spirit. Prayer, service, faith, sinning (repentance) are all tenets of the spiritual aspects of church. Trying to relate yourself to the writings of both the BoM and Bible is another great way to internalize the messages and try to make them work in your life.

While it's debateable what kind of education Joseph Smith had at the time he wrote the BoM, he and his entire family were exceptionally well-read, especially since their farm was in close proximity to a library of sorts. Does this mean he made the whole thing up? Of course not. Even for what he knew, it's got its imaginative parts and many would be hard-pressed to duplicate it (even Smith himself couldn't duplicate it when "tested" by Martin Harris' wife).

No, I think your point was that it feels right to you. And if it does and it's not hurting anyone else, why not? Have fun with it. Hopefully it takes you to places you didn't expect.

It is rather amazing how much is NOT known about Mormonism. It is actually very fascinating religion and its history is a huge part of what made the mid-19th century American West.

Unfortunatelly, if you want to learn the history of Mormons, you should not ask Mormons themselves, because they only know the "official" version of it. The best book on Mormon history was for decades No man know my history by Brodie. Of course Mormons will attack the book, for the obvious reasons.

Little known facts of Mormon history:

-- This is one of the most flexibile religions Whenever there was a political problem with the state, God conveniently interrupted and solved the problem:
a/ The location of Zion, they moved it 4 times, going farer to the West.
b/ Discontinuation of the practice of poligamy in the 1890s
c/ Priesthood to blacks in the 1970s.

--The only reason why Utah still has firing squad for capital punishement is the blood atonement, an early Mormon practice.

--After Joseph Smith's death there was no clear law who should inherite the prophethood, thus there were at least 5 different fractions fighting for power. Also see the different sects coming from the original LDS.

--Early Mormons almost caused a civil war at least twice.

--One of the guys who claimed to be the next prophet after Smith's death later crowned himself to be a king and was kniefed to death by one of his followers.

--The practice of poligamy was well alive for decades after the church officially denounced it. Today there are 30-50K orthodox Mormons mostly in the Western states who still practices it. (watch HBO's Big love, it is very good)

--Mormonism borrowed a lot from freemasonry. I don't go into the secret temple rituals, but it is fascinating...

My memories are a bit rasty on the history, but again, you guys should read about it, it is one very unique part of the American history and you don't get this kind of shit anywhere else...

Mormonism has one disadvantage compared to older religions, it is rather new. Thus we have quite a few diaries, newspaper records etc. in existence about the early practices. Not like Christianity, where 1600 years of statereligion successfully supressed all evidences to the contrary...

If you guys like true, modern day crimes, read Mormon murders, or the other book on the same subject, Salamander, they both give you a good look into the politics of the Church leadership...

Oh yes, I am not going to debate Mormon history or religion. Go educate yourself...