I know there is already a somewhat similar thread about the meaning of life, but I will try to make this one sufficiently different to make itself worthwhile. Does anyone else have a kind of disdain for people who have little other goal than to raise a family? I asked one of my friends what her life goal was and basically she said it was to have children. She's 19 and has been living with some guy for a while so she could be quite close to having children and achieving her goal. What I find distasteful is the reduction of oneself to the level of lower animals, plants, bacteria or even viruses with the goal only of simple reproduction. Humans have abilities far above those lifeforms, but if a human decides to more or less shun those abilities what makes them much different? One way of separating ourselves is by examining the extent to which humans can increase their abilities and expand their limits, both as a group and as individuals. In the year 2003 we can do things that are far beyond anything 5000 years ago(Internet, space travel, weaponry, cars, etc). On the other hand, lower lifeforms are basically the same. As individuals we can consciously choose to improve our own abilities. We can study to gain more knowledge and train to increase our physical strength or skills. Humans make up arbitrary situations with rules(competitions) to see who is the best at some particular activity. Unlike other life forms we have art, music, and literature among other abstractions. I know all these things can be related back to simply biology or sex, but they are what make us different from other forms of life. Once a person no longer puts much emphasis on these human activities they become only a life form, a chemical recycler. Given that, what do you think about people who don't try for much more than subsistence and reproduction. Certainly everyone has some of these human traits, but there are some who try so much more than others. Look at sports stars, scientists or artists, people who try to become better all the time. Are these people more human than Joe Schmo who does nothing more than work in a gas station and drink a six pack everynight in front of the TV? What do you do to make yourself more human?
Let me just start by clarifying that I do not plan on having children, and undecided if I will (but likely not going to) adopt a child. So, if a person does not think these things are worthwile or positive endeavors that somehow makes them less worthy as a person? What is so wonderful about placing importance in comparing physical prowess in pointless endeavors? I consider that pretty shallow, personally. Someone that has a family can't appreciate artistic expression? "(Internet, space travel, weaponry, cars, etc)" Arguably four of the worst "accomplishments" of mankind. If anything, these pointless pursuits towards "progress" take away from the time, energy and focus that we should be placing on art, beauty and life. I would argue that mankind was better off 5000 years ago. I would prefer the world be as this country was for native americans before we conquered and "modernized" this shithole of selfish Capitalists that measure worth by material wealth. I guess "better" is the key word there. I think those pursuits you mentioned are what makes animals better than humans. "Human progress" is often the guise laid over scientific, technological and medical advancements. I think it is a misnomer. Progress implies progression towards or away from something. What, I ask you, are we progressing towards? Do you think we have a better quality of life than people living on a deserted island in the South Pacific that don't have TV's, PC's, EEG's, NASA and the NFL? I certainly don't. If we are not striving fpor a better quality of life, what is it we are progressing towards?
Re: Re: The Animal People and What's Your Goal? Then what is a person supposed to do to be a person? Sure simply subsisting and reproducing like other life forms is a trait of people. If a person does these things that only people do, doesn't that distance them more from lower life forms and make them more human? I never said that and it is not true. I am talking about people with little more aspiration than to just reproduce, which is the aspiration of a plant or dog. I can admit that the goodness of some human accomplishment is debateable. Certainly I would say war, genocide, and torture are bad. They are also unique to humans, so not everything about humans is good. I know you agree with that. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! It's also easy to be more negative about the present. Remember that Native Americans brutally killed and tortured eachother as well. As a side note, I just wonder what the chance of a native being murdered or tortured during his lifetime was... as compared to our chance of being murdered or tortured. Art and beauty are human concepts. You agree that these human things are what are important. We just disagree about what human things are good. But can't a car be beautiful? Or the way that its components are cleverly engineered to work together smoothly? Haven't you seen that Honda cog commercial? Isn't it beautiful to see the earth from space? Are the graceful movements of an athlete beautiful? Why do you think the Internet is bad? I think that the ability to share ideas easily is good. Why do you use the internet if you think it is one of the "worst 'accomplishments'" ever? It certainly isn't necessary. Maybe we are progressing away from the mere subsistence practiced by non-humans. I've asked myself before if we have a better quality of life than people in ancient times or if the life of a dog is better than mine. Again it is easy to kind of romanticize their simpleness. They do not have such a variety of complex things to worry about as we do(banks, cars, complex laws, computers). At the same time they have to pay a lot more attention to very serious concerns, "Will I be able to get enough food to survive?" That is a more basic concern and it detracts from the time to do more human things. I am glad that I have enough free time to spend a lot of it learning, thinking, and partaking of my hobbies instead of trying to stay alive. As much as I like my pet dog, I would rather be a human.
Re: Re: Re: The Animal People and What's Your Goal? I guess the question is: Why distance ourselves? What is wrong with someone having no more ambition than wanting to sit under a tree somewhere, read, think and exist? Sure, reading is a human exception... As is abstract thinking (according to some). But, what I am arguing is your idea (as it seems to me from what I am reading, anyway) that not having abition to succeed, prosper and accomplish is necessarily a bad thing. You are right, you didn't say that. Sorry if I took that too far. Good question. But you should also look at the flip side, and consider the time and effort spent other than self preservation and protection. You have to weigh both sides of that scale. Granted. Yes, a car can be a beautiful thing. It can be a work of art. To be honest, (showing my many levels of hipocracy here) I am a car enthusiast. A well designed car could be a gracful marriage of artistic expression and a testament to the ingenuity of the human mind. However, so can an adobe village AND I think we would be better of without cars than with. I have a love-hate relationship with the internet. Sharing ideas and experiences | impersonalizing human interaction. Teaching tool | promotes laziness and decreases children's ability to learn and think Makes information readily available | makes disinformation readily available etc.. I guess for me it all comes down to what those hobbies are and what wide reaching effects the have on the world and nature in general. The goal and effects of those hobbies are what matters most to me. As for the worries and dangers of primative existence, I would say the same thing as I did above about weighing both sides of the scale. Also, can't there be a comfortable medium? American Indians lives were threatened by starvation, so they worked together to hunt animals to feed them, but respected nature and did not kill what they did not need. They used every part of the animal's body ( another testament to human ingenuity). They formed close knit communities and cooperated on many aspects of life and ensuing safety. With all that structure in place, they had ample time to enjoy life, serenity and nature around them. They even had enough leisure time to create games, art and music.
reproduction = mindless sex. raising a family = taking care of children, teaching them about the world, ensuring that they contribute something to the positivity of the environment. doing all that is reproduction? :bugeye:
I am talking about the traits that are unique to humans and define us as different from other life. I'm not critisizing having a family outright. I'm critisizing making it a primary and largely only goal. In that case it becomes life for the sake of life. Teaching children is important so they can intelligent, considerate and do something. What if someone decides they want to raise a family and he teaches his children how important that is? What if through example he teaches them not to worry much about trying to improve or create beautiful things? Then those children decide not to worry much about other goals. They too just raise their children, with the requisite job and such. The cycle continues with everyone living only for the purpose of ensuring the next generation. Maybe I put too much emphasis on accomplishment, though I do find that important, at least to myself. If a person wanted to sit under a tree, reading and thinking, I would applaud them. Not enough people read or think. Like you said they are human activities. I'm a car enthusiast too. I do SCCA autocross in my Miata. What I am not trying to say is that modernity is necessarily better than the past. A village or some other ancient construct can be great. I don't know if we would be better off without cars or not. We would probably get more exercise and be healthier without them. I enjoy using them for things other than mere transportation. Maybe if people would use them more intelligently we could be more appreciative of them. Like so many things its all in how they are used. Like I said already, I do autocross. I like to try and improve my time on each run. Each event I hope to do better than the last. It just feels good to make a smooth, fast run. Sure you can say its pointless to drive through a course of cones. It's just as pointless as life. It adds something to life. I play soccer. It just feels good for me to manuever the ball with my feet. Whenever I get better at a skill, I feel proud of the accomplishment. If my team uses cleverness, creativity, skill and quick thinking to move the ball, it's just beautiful to me. Look at those people working together to do something difficult. Like now, I enjoy just sitting and considering concepts. What effort and carefulness it takes to develop some idea. Do other people agree? What can they say to challenge it and make me think differently? I become more intelligent and I find that valueable. How great is it to learn about something new everyday? Do many people even bother to learn about impractical things unless they are forced too in school? Even then they fake it.
I can see where you're coming from Slaughterist but I have more disdain for those who have no thoughts for a family. By this I mean those who think only of themselves and no one else (and I don't mean certain sciforumers, I know they have a heart and will do well!) I think procreation is one of our main purposes in life: it is a beautiful thing to bring others into the world so that they too can enjoy it, however I agree; that is not out only purpose. One must surely have other interests besides having a family. I think it's different for women. It is my opinion they only really want kids (and for the most part I would say this is only because of the security they then have, i.e., they then have a real firm grip of the mans balls). I myself, write, and record my life as I grow. Maybe it will become nothing but something to look at when I'm seventy, but at least it's something. Others may say they have created children, but again I agree with you Slaughterist; there is more to life. P.S There is nothing wrong with drinking a six-pack in front of the television, every now and then, in my opinion. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
In my experience people that have children do it for selfish reasons more often than not. A bid at immortality. A trophy kid to put a bumper sticker on their car about. Living vicariously through their kids. Wanting a little version of them to dress up and play with like a doll. Some unexplainable "need" they feel for procreation. To save a relationship. Because their partner wants one. People have children when they are barely able to care for themselves. When they are too young. When they have no clue about how to raise a child. When they are not willing or able to devote their lives to their children's future and welfare. Not everyone, obviously, but most people that I have met have selfish reasons for having children. Otherwise why wouldn't they adopt and offer all their "help. support and love" that they insist they will lavish on their children to a child that is already here, has no one in its life and desperately needs someone? Simply because it is not of their genes? That, in my opinion, is the selfish act. But I am way off topic here, and I guess we should start a new thread if we want to discuss this further.
While life itself is fairly amazing, it is so commonplace here on earth. What I find more wonderful are the things that life can do and what is unique about it. The lizard that can run across water is great. What else can run on water? Squirrels are amazing. They are so quick and agile. People have actually built complex obstacle courses that squirrels can negotiate. Most people do not look at these interesting creatures and say, "Wow. A complex chemical reaction that replicates itself." In our realm of experience that's not all that special. What makes humans unique and amazing is their almost limitless potential. We can do new things all the time. Our ability to think and learn is so much greater than anything else. Only humans have art. When I see a person who does not aspire to do something interesting or wonderful with their great potential, it makes me sad at the waste. If they don't want to use the great gifts that humans have why weren't they born as a plant or animal instead. I want to see things that make me forget humanity is a chemical reaction running amok. Maybe I want to feel like we are worth existing. We are the only life that massively damages the rest of the environment and if we are going to exist simply for the sake of existing then it is a waste. I thought something similar, given that the 2 main examples of the person I am speaking of are both female. I don't know if it is because of security though. I don't really know why at all. Maybe because traditionally childcare has been their role. Sounds like the voluntary human extinction movement.
