I just saw the DVD of In Plane Site. I'm in NY...didn't think anything could terrify me after losing so many people at the WTC. I was wrong.

I'm not into conspiracies. I'm a retired bio teacher....with a good background in the value of empirical evidence. But I'm devastated by the film. It's not some conspiracy film... it uses footage from CNN, NBC, FOX,...all the networks, that were seen ONCE and never again....to raise some frightening issues.

The physical analysis of the Pentagon 'hole' - with network footage, sent chills up my very stoic spine. I'd like some feedback from anyone who has seen the film.

There's a preview here:
http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/911_in_plane_site_video.html


[MODERATOR EDIT]
Please note that this thread is now a melting pot of 3 other threads.

It's all bullshit. Here's something more real. I have rubbed soldiers with the people who trained Muhammed Atta and his pilot friends in the rare art of low-level, high-speed attack. You do not learn these things in everyday civilian flight schools, boys and girls. If you try to learn how to fly at 800 feet with the overspeed warning blaring in your ear, taking a 4g turn with your wingtip (flexed 18 feet up by the force of the turn) over the Verazzano, then HARD right aileron and rudder, hold her steady while she bucks: You just bounced 8 tons of kerosene up and down 30 feet, and there is a distinct buzz in the rudder pedals, because no 757 has ever gone this fast, this low before. Ever. But 3 for three, 3 highly-trained attack pilots who started fighter trining at Dhahran Airbase learned their lessons very well. This does not fit in the least with the stereotypes: Professional fighter pilots flew the 9-11 planes, they were Saudi nationals trained by American officers of the United States Air Force in the 1980s and 90s. The Pentagon has all their training records. Washington thinks you and I can't handle the truth.

I have no prior personal experience from within USAF missions in Saudi Arabia. Nor have I ever been privy to classified information concerning RSAF attack school.

There was nothing expert about the flying on 9/11, they just had to point a relatively mild-mannered airplane in the right direction. The hole in the pentagon was small because it is a heavily fortified building, recently reinforced.

The film is not about Atta or anyone responsible for the attacks. The film, if you'll take the time to view it....questions the authenticity of what we've been told, when contrasted to the actual footage that has been withheld from the public. When you've checked it out.... we'll discuss.

For the record. I know something also...from FIRST hand information... my daughter worked for March Maclennan, - and her office got a direct hit on the 96th floor or Tower One. She lost 300 colleagues that day, but was not yet at work that morning. She called me on September TENTH...saying that the building was being searched by FBI agents with sniffer dogs, - going through every trash bin in the building.

The film shows firefighters describing the explosions on every floor that preceded the collapse of both towers...and Building 7, that had not been hit. The film also shows...from several sources of tv footage....that another explosion occurred on side of Tower One that was NOT hit by the plane...with smoke drifting upward from the bottom of the building. Many such films. Enough to discuss, not dismiss outright. The highjakers are not discussed in the film. But I keep wondering how Atta's passport floated down from the fireball, to be "found", unsinged, and mirculaously, on top of all the debris.

There was nothing expert about the flying on 9/11, they just had to point a relatively mild-mannered airplane in the right direction.

Got much flight experience spider?

What about you Hype? ;)

I tried but ran out of cash before I got my licence. :( I'm fully certified for ground and tow launched gliders though.
Those boys did not learn their skill from Microsoft flight simulator or a few dozen hours riding Cessna's.

I'll leave the speculation to others but those arabs knew how to fly.
Dee Cee

I think Hype's assessment of the skill required to fly that plane in the conditions that they did is probably right on.

I'll try to score a copy of the movie to watch and comment after.

Here is a good run over of it:
http://www.policestate21.com/
Conspiracy theory it is.

I like this:
Given that the outer wall of the Pentagon had not yet collapsed, how does a plane over 44 feet tall and 125 ft. wide, fit into a hole which is only 16 ft. in diameter, as shown in the crystal-clear photographic evidence from the Pentagon? Can physics explain this?
and then another question possed below:
How does a Boeing 757, constructed from lightweight aluminum, penetrate over 9 ft. of steel reinforced concrete? Recently discovered photographs shed light on this unexplained feat of physics.
Huuuum they may have answered their own question right there!

"Got much flight experience spider?
What about you Hype?"
About 6,250 hours.

The one thing that the film needs to explain is how you fake about four hundred witnesses who clearly saw an airliner come in and grease onto the front lawn of the Pentagon.

Case closed.

Meanwhile, Hype is right. A 757 is never supposed to be flown faster than 513 knots under any circumstances, and never faster than 250 knots below 10,000 feet (http://www.upsvac.com/Docs/UPSVAC757POH.pdf), yet Flight 75 was going a little over 520 knots at impact. The aircraft would be very, very difficult to control at that speed, and going at 865 feet per second would have covered the last mile to the target in SIX SECONDS!

Only a pilot specifically trained to fly attack runs at this kind of speed could line up an absolute bulls-eye like this. In retrospect, I'm really kind of surprised that one or both pilots didn't totally miss the first run and have to go around. Plus, and more importantly, if you were inexperienced and wanted to make certain you hit the target, you'd want to go as slow as possible rather than fast.

At those speeds, one little blip and you are into the ground before you can say Allah Akhbar. Which is what happened in PA, no doubt.

No I think he got to say "Allah Akhbar" I think I remember that from the translations of the black box.

but anyways I’m not really convinced that a under-trained person could not dive bomb a 757 at those speeds. I would like to see studies proving or disproving this. Even so if they did have flight experience from Saudi camps that is not really to unexpected or unrealistic.

Just the opposite. The eyewitness from one of the channels said the plane that hit the first tower had NO WINDOWS...and had blue markings toward the front. He was close enough to see it coming in low. Another was screaming over and over.. I'ts NOT an American airliner.
You really are off the mark as to what the film is about. There are no theories presented. The highjackers don't figure in. It's an examination of the footage that was taken that day...and what you see on it. Not ONE film.... many, corroborating the same strange things that remain unexplained.

Please see it. Then discuss. I'm not a conspiracy nut. I had no clue as to what I'd see in this film and I was totally devastated. I really thought I knew it all....and had heard all the questions. These are not questions. The film shows you what they have on record....and you decide.

I don't care who your are, it’s a conspiracy theory. From the photos I have seen I don’t see any facts that point to the theory that the government did it all! the photos are undetialed and hard to prove anything. There are also the broad implausibility of it all. It would have taken a large number of people in the military and somewhere in the government to make this happen: to rig up the planes and equipment, to kill off the required civilians (such as the passengers of those planes that “supposedly” hit the tower) to keep mouths closed is like trying to keep your eye lids open! Also why would they fuck up and use planes that did not look like airliners (like not having windows!)?

I'm sorry but this off to psuedoscience.

vera,

If it wasn't an American airliner, then where did the flight go which took off that morning? Did a whole planeload of people just disappear?

http://letsroll911.org/images/fueljetspray.jpg

LetsRoll911.org Determines 'Flight 175' a Highly Modified Military Retrofitted 767-200ER Tanker, possibly a Protoypte KC767 Fuel Tanker, or Cargo aircraft: Also, 'Flight 175' Discharges 2 'Jet Fuel Sprays' from it's undercarriage prior to impact. Also noted, is that the plane also shows no passenger windows, and shows a blemish where the Refueling Boom was possibly removed.

This is from LetsRoll911.org....a site that has much of the information in the film, and then some. Have an open mind. Science folk are supposed to do that....

where are you seeing this??? I see fuzzy picture that it! Look at the first one that white line along the side might be windows it sure reflects like windows!

In those photos, the windows are probably all out of sight, due to the angle of the plane relative to the camera.

In those photos, the windows are probably all out of sight, due to the angle of the plane relative to the camera.

Exactly, take a look at this;

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/flash.html

Can you see the windows clearly in this top shot of the aircraft? Nope, they're lost amongst the livery.

Here's a 757 where they are a little clearer;

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757family/flash.html

But you wouldn't see them from the underside.

Here's a 757 in American Airlines livery, the windows are lost amongst the paintwork;

http://www.aa.com/content/aboutUs/ourPlanes/boeing757.jhtml

Here's a 767, the windows are hidden by the blue stripe;

http://www.aa.com/content/aboutUs/ourPlanes/boeing767.jhtml

Here's a United Airlines 767, the windows aren't that easy to see either;

http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1446,00.html

So there were windows, just because of the angle of the plane, the speed it was going, and with the livery, they were hard to see.

There, the 'no windows' eye witness put straight in about 25 seconds of google time.

Vera, it seems some French investigators have also shown clearly that there was no plane involved in the Pentagon explosion.

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

:D

Welcome to scifoolems forums Vera. You have been a member longer than I, but not many posts and you are off the scale according to the little green square on your profile. A happy birthday belatedly to you, keep having them and you will live longer. :)

Most are here for the entertainment of bashing people, some for the direct attempts at information control and, or acquisition. Looks like you are understanding that most think humans are just mushrooms, keeping us in the dark and feeding us BS. :D

Just my personal opinion about it all, but! I do fly and the auto pilot could easily fly that plane right into the building. It is entirely possible that these could have been remote controlled planes also. It is also my opinion that there was no plane at the pentagon.

you know, shoveling BS is hard work give us some credit. :rolleyes:

Most are here for the entertainment of bashing people, some for the direct attempts at information control

Funny how your inability to discern fantasy from reality is somehow everyone elses fault.

Vera, it seems some French investigators have also shown clearly that there was no plane involved in the Pentagon explosion.

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

:D

Amazing. So what about the guy I know who lives in DC that saw it happen?

It's only a conspiracy when you don't know anything about it, and have to get all your information off the internet. If you actually knew anybody who was anywhere near at the time, you'd know it happened just like everybody says it did.

These events took place in major cities, and were well observed, by real people. All that site has managed to dredge up are a couple of misguided eye witnesses out of the tens of thousands that were there that day, and some bad footage

I see no-one wants to comment on why the windows aren't visible, have we debunked that one ? Conspiracy nuts got no answer?

Other points raised on the web site are that jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to damage to the concrete of the WTC enough. That is plain BS. Check out some studies done on tunnel fires, where there has been limited oxygen, and far less fuel (just the fuel in the trucks involved,and their flammable cargo). In these cases, temperatures reached 2,200degF, and the _melting point_ of concrete is 2,700degF, and therefore concrete suffers serious loss of structural integrity well before it melts, and some parts would be come hot enough to melt (think about a pan of water, you see steam before the whole contents are at 100degC don't you? Some water molecules get to evaporate, before the _whole_ is at boiling point, it's a statistical distrubution of energy thing, go read a physics book). Concrete would suffer cracking from differential heating and expansion, exposing the metal superstructure, which is steel, which melts at 2,500degF, and again, would lose structual integrity far before this point.

In the WTC, the planes were carrying around 11,000 gallons of fuel, and there was a plentiful air supply. Ir would have been sucked along every stairway, ventilation shaft and opening, to fan the flames. It was hot in the there, easily hot enough to cause the damage that we saw.

So, that one is easily debunked too. Got anything credible?

Theres something your missing about the structure, the WTC buildings were notorious for their engineering design since they were mostly made up of Glass and Aluminium. Aluminium was used because the buildings weight would have been too much if made from other materials. As you should all know Aluminium has a relatively low melting point which meant as soon as a fire took hold the building lost structural integraty.

Even if the concrete was load bearing, it would still have suffered from the loss of stability since the aluminium beams would have generated the overall structure to keep the load on the concrete beams.

As its been mentioned, It happened, it was seen and pretending it didn't isn't going to mean it never happened. It's all very well to point the finger as to why it happened and suggest other reasons for its occurance but it doesn't change the event. (Mearly adds to the causality of why the event occured)

did u guys know the day of sept 11 2001 pentagon officials were conducting mock evacuation excercises of a plane crashing into the pentagon. FACT.

did u know alot of Top Officials canceled their flights that day ? FACT.

you can't simple say something is a fact without providing evidence to prove it, for example paperwork from the pentagon showing that "mock evacuation excercises of a plane crashing into the pentagon" were actually happening on that day, ect

I bet most of you who believe in this, also think that Bowling for Columbine and Farenheit 9/11 were actually documentaries.

Later
T

did u guys know the day of sept 11 2001 pentagon officials were conducting mock evacuation excercises of a plane crashing into the pentagon. FACT.

did u know alot of Top Officials canceled their flights that day ? FACT.

So instead of providing support for the arguments I've debunked, you're just going to make more allegations?

Right, here's a quick debunking of you 'evacuation' theory. All the pentagon had to do, was hit the fire alarm _before_ the conspiracy plane (are you saying it _did_ or _didn't_ crash into the Pentagon, btw) hit, and they would have minimised casualties.

Or are you saying there was some other purpose for the practice evacuation? Why practice anyway?

And yes, I bet a lot of top officials did cancel their flights on Sept 11th, considering, that the entire nation's airspace was shut down after the events that morning. Are you saying they cancelled _before_, because you haven't actually said that.

So, learn to construct meaningful sentences, come back with a fully supported argument, and we'll get back to you.

they cancelled their flights before.

they were conducting mock excercises that morning before the plane hit.

i dont doubt the plane actually hit. but its not all cracked up to be what they say.

how about this fact;

the black boxes of some of the planes were supposedly destroyed? YET, they found a "terrorists" passport there, almost in perfect condition ?

here you go chump;

"
That, on the morning of September 11, 2001: standard procedures and policies at the nation's air defense and aviation bureaucracies were ignored, and communications were delayed; the black boxes of the planes that hit the WTC were destroyed, but hijacker Mohammed Atta's passport was found in pristine condition; high-ranking Pentagon officers had cancelled their commercial flight plans for that morning; George H.W. Bush was meeting in Washington with representatives of Osama bin Laden's family, and other investors in the world's largest private equity firm, the Carlyle Group; the CIA was conducting a previously-scheduled mock exercise of an airliner hitting the Pentagon; the chairs of both the House and Senate Intelligence Committees were having breakfast with the chief of Pakistan's intelligence agency, who resigned a week later on suspicion of involvement in the 9/11 attacks; and the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of the United States sat in a second grade classroom for 20 minutes after hearing that a second plane had struck the towers, listening to children read a story about a goat, is not "theoretical." These are facts.
"

by the way, im not trying to 'argue' anything, just trying to open your blind eyes.

I bet most of you who believe in this, also think that Bowling for Columbine and Farenheit 9/11 were actually documentaries.

and i bet you think the War in Iraq is about terrorism.

you are just making claims we need proof of these things!

To the cesspool.

they cancelled their flights before.

Who? Where's the evidence?

they were conducting mock excercises that morning before the plane hit. Where's the evidence?

i dont doubt the plane actually hit. but its not all cracked up to be what they say.

Good, I'm glad you agree the plane did hit, as it was witnessed.

how about this fact;

the black boxes of some of the planes were supposedly destroyed? YET, they found a "terrorists" passport there, almost in perfect condition ?



It's not that surprising. The black boxes of the Pennysylvania and Pentagon crashes were recovered, because those planes crashed fairly normally. The planes that hit the WTC however, burned up, and the flight recorders were not desined to withstand that. As for the passport, I'm haing trouble finding a reputable information source to back up that story. so far, I can only find that story on conspiracy sites, not news sites. Have you got a link to a reputable news source? CNN, someone like that?

here you go chump;

"
That, on the morning of September 11, 2001: standard procedures and policies at the nation's air defense and aviation bureaucracies were ignored, and communications were delayed; the black boxes of the planes that hit the WTC were destroyed, but hijacker Mohammed Atta's passport was found in pristine condition; high-ranking Pentagon officers had cancelled their commercial flight plans for that morning; George H.W. Bush was meeting in Washington with representatives of Osama bin Laden's family, and other investors in the world's largest private equity firm, the Carlyle Group; the CIA was conducting a previously-scheduled mock exercise of an airliner hitting the Pentagon; the chairs of both the House and Senate Intelligence Committees were having breakfast with the chief of Pakistan's intelligence agency, who resigned a week later on suspicion of involvement in the 9/11 attacks; and the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of the United States sat in a second grade classroom for 20 minutes after hearing that a second plane had struck the towers, listening to children read a story about a goat, is not "theoretical." These are facts.
"

If you don't cite your sources they are meaningless. I presume you got this off some conspiracy web page?

by the way, im not trying to 'argue' anything, just trying to open your blind eyes.

I'm not blind. I'm not gullible either.

because those planes crashed fairly normally. The planes that hit the WTC however, burned up, and the flight recorders were not desined to withstand that. As for the passport, I'm haing trouble finding a reputable information source to back up that story. so far, I can only find that story on conspiracy sites, not news sites. Have you got a link to a reputable news source? CNN, someone like that?


those planes crashed normally ?? what the fuck does that mean, for a plane to crash normal ? geez you guys are really confused.

and its appearant because you guys hail CNN as the Truth.

you guys dont think for yourselves, you let the Media do that for you.

*a side note* you guys know the hurricanes that hit florida ? "CNN" and other MEdia Outlets claim a low # of people died, like 30 or something. Did you know that the REAL DEATH TOLL is OVER 400 ??? you chumps will swallow whatever Big Brother feeds you like fucking spoonfed babies!!!

all i can say is look for information, and think for your damn selves !

Did you know that the REAL DEATH TOLL is OVER 400 ???

Show us those statistics, please?

those planes crashed normally ?? what the fuck does that mean, for a plane to crash normal ? geez you guys are really confused.

and its appearant because you guys hail CNN as the Truth.


CNN, BBC, ABC, Al Jazeera, every credible (and many not so credible) news organisation. Does thinking for yourself also include ignoring all the evidence.

"and i bet you think the War in Iraq is about terrorism."

No its simple economics. We are securing a resource called OIL.

Later
T

those planes crashed normally ?? what the fuck does that mean, for a plane to crash normal ? geez you guys are really confused.


I said 'fairly normally' actually, and that means, impact into terrain, the most likely type of air crash. The wreckage was allowed to spread, and the fire was not contained. Aircraft fuel has an anti-misting agent in to help prevent fires from starting if they crash 'normally', however, this is a subtle effect and cannot prevent fires when aircraft are crashed into buildings.

You didn't respond to the fact that the recorders from the two 'normal' crashes have been found, nor whether you expect a recorder to be able to survive heat in excess of 2000 degrees.

You haven't listed any evidence to support your claims for cancelled flights, or the intact passport having been found either.

and its appearant because you guys hail CNN as the Truth.

At least that would be a named, verifiable source, rather than a bunch of conspiracy web pages! You seem to have missed the point though, that I have have friends who live in both NYC and DC who witnessed these events. How do you get around that?

you guys dont think for yourselves, you let the Media do that for you.

Conspiracy web pages are still media, kid.

onlinejournal is not a conspiracy "web page"

if you people had the brains to conduct your own searches instead of being spoonfed the MAINSTREAM Media (i had to re-word Media for one incompetant reader) then maybe you'd get a glimpse of the true nature of our twisted reality. of course, like in electronics, people (like currents) will always choose the path of least resistance (just take CNN's word for it)

heres links regarding the horrible hurricane disasters. just like some of you keep screaming your friends saw the planes hit the buildings (which i dont deny) - these people have witnessed the tragic truths of florida;

http://www.karenlyster.com/andrew.html

http://www.rense.com/general56/worst.htm
It doesn't matter what FEMA or the media may report about the two mobile home parks that were completely destroyed on that road. The truth is, there are hundreds of dead there and it will be weeks before they will be able to recover all the bodies.

this is the most detailed account;


FL Eyewitness Death Count Close To 400 Now
More from Michael Edward
Rumor Mill News Agents Forum
8-17-4

What an eye awakening day this was. I thought that I had seen it all having been involved from Viet Nam to the beginning of Desert Storm in my military and civilian law enforcement career, but today I learned about a new part of the shame game.

For those who won,t bother to read all this report, let me spell out the body counts that 6 of us (all retired military and/or law enforcement) went out to confirm today in different areas. These are confirmed bodies in the trucks, restaurant refers, or refer vans, and they are NOT 'missing persons' or animals:

Charlotte Harbor areas - 58 dead as of 5pm today; Fort Myers & the barrier islands - 21 deaths as of 3pm today; Punta Gorda - 275+ deaths and escalating each hour; Desoto County - 36 deaths, expected to increase;

These figures came from our own eyes, medical personnel, various county sheriff's deputies, and eye witnesses or residents from the worst devastated areas. CNN and the rest of the world biased and controlled media are fooling none of us who live here. The current CONFIRMED body count in our 3 county area on the west coast of Florida is near 400 as I write this.

Readers should know right up front who is doing their best and who fails to pass the grade:

Honors awards to those people who have given and done the most: 1. City of North Port Police Department 2. Charlotte County Deputies 3. Desoto County Deputies 4. Visiting Pinellas County Deputies 5. Florida Power and Light

All of the above have gone beyond the call of duty. They are showing us what real cops and utility workers used to be... humanitarians.

Failing grades go to:

1. FEMA, the government loan people. 2. John Ellis Bush (JEB, the corporate Governor of Florida). 3. The untrained and unequipped remnants of the Florida National Guard. 4. George Walker Bush, the non-elected and appointed U.S. President. 5. Recycling firms who are stealing aluminum siding from destroyed mobile homes. 6. Those selling bags of ice for $10. 7. Thieves from Miami taking personal belongings from demolished homes. 8. Those thieves demanding money up front to file fake insurance claims.

Here's some of what went on today...

There are staging areas for FEMA (with their red and white signs to let you know they are 'there'), et al, that we could not openly enter into with photo and movie cameras having been 'discovered' in our vehicles... our cars and pick-ups were searched in the 'sensitive' areas where the worst devastation took place and where we were then refused entry. None-the-less, we still walked into most of these "off limits" areas at waterfront motels, I-75 restaurant/commercial areas, destroyed mobile home parks, and the temporary Charlotte morgue... to name a few. This is how we came up with the above figures for body counts. We spoke with medical personnel who have come from Miami to work triage and other temporary facilities, ambulance drivers (a special thanks to the Ambutrans people), homeless residents, and deputies from many different counties.

Considering most of the trained and experienced personnel and modern equipment from the Florida National Guard are now in the Middle East, JEB THE BUSH dared to send us antiquated equipment that broke down on I-75 driven by untrained personnel who have no idea what to do. Worse is that there were no water purification trucks (erdilators) sent, just old water tankers and old communications and storage trailers. It was a circus show and a true military cluster puck. There is no Florida National Guard... all the necessary equipment we need is sitting in Iraq or Kuwait right now.

A professional group of electronic thieves intercepted telephone calls from Lee and Charlotte counties to the special Allstate and State Farm insurance claims lines. They demanded credit card numbers and up-front payments from those calling in claims stating that they could guarantee 24 hour payment for all damages if the victims would pay $250-500 to them.

The lowest theft and emergency incident rate is in the City of North Port. Although they had little hurricane damage, most of their electric power was off from Friday afternoon until this afternoon (just a few neighborhoods are still without power). For a rapidly growing city with the third largest city land mass in Florida, they managed to control traffic, stop burglaries and other thefts, and were "gentlemen with all Charlotte, Desoto, and Lee county people who went there for food and gas. They are grossly understaffed, yet they have performed like a crack military unit. One member of our group insists that I especially thank Lieutenant Choinere for his assistance.

There is NO Martial Law here. In fact, all city and county law enforcement are stretched to the limit. While they work overtime and are as physically exhausted as we are, Federal and State law enforcement departments do very little [if anything] in comparison. The local departments are shunned by the State and Federal "boys, yet the locals are doing far more than their share of what is needed.

The biggest joke going around among us is about the guy who walked up in the new white car - wearing a nice suit in our 90% humidity - who said, "I,m from FEMA and I,m here to help you. The ladies ran one of these "suits out of our neighborhood today when he told them that we can "borrow all the money we needed to rebuild.... with interest. They are no different than the other FED banksters posing as "community banks. Not one of us cares to become one of the new federal sheeple.

As of this morning, our area has found the need to organize our own security 24/7. Last night and early this morning, we had thieves driving our streets stealing personal belongings and clothes that had not yet been collected from those neighbors who hadn,t made it back here yet. We now warn all the Miami and Tampa gangs roaming our streets that if you dare to once again trespass in our community, you will deal with better armed resistance from us than you would from the local police and Sheriff,s Departments. Other areas are now doing the same as we are. We will personally protect ourselves and what possessions we have left. We have been through far too much to be victims of prey.

It rained hard for an hour today. My house, the temporary home and designated "sanctuary" for a dozen people, had more damage than I thought as water poured into 3 rooms. I guess that,s why they invented buckets. The 3-cylinder diesel generator has been purring non-stop like a kitten and used no oil over the past 2 days. That was the best investment I ever made along with the storage tanks for potable water. I guess I have earned my Boy Scout survival merit badge now.

To give credit where credit is due, all the pictures I have posted were taken by my eldest daughter with her own camera and uploaded onto my laptop via a USB connector. She came here for a visit 3 days before Charley arrived and got a vacation she will never forget! I have no working camera of my own right now, but others have been taking pictures and we are trying to find a place to develop the films. After that, and as soon as we find a working scanner, I'll be posting them here on RMN if Rayelan can spare the bandwidth. Be patient... we're working on it.

I can only get internet access when driving north 20 miles, so this report may be a little late, but is the latest news I have collected today. Hopefully, I can start using a North Port connection much closer to my house now that power has been restored there.

Visiting volunteer police and deputies are very frustrated that their in-car computers and radios do not work with local police and local County law enforcement. The State and Federal alphabet groups seem to care less. The out-of-area volunteer cops have had to escort thieves to the county line instead of arresting them for stealing. Their "law enforcement hands are tied in more ways than one. Thanks guys... we know you,re trying to do all you can to protect us, but we,ll handle it from now on since the STATE legalities won,t allow you do the job you need to do.

We have all found out that there is nothing better than a local community effort. We take shifts getting gas for the generators and for buying food, have organized our own security and damage clean-up teams, and the ladies are cooking up a storm with the charcoal and gas grills. Many of us only barely knew each other a week ago. Now, we have become a community family. There are no more blank faces of shock among any of us. We are strengthening each other and working with one another. There is no segregation or racism among us, and we represent a local community of many different races, nationalities, and colors.

This is what the Living Light brings to those who seek it. The LifeCross within us all never fails regardless of our circumstances. For the first time any of us have ever remembered, this new neighborhood that now exists has become one... all are one.

In this adversity we have and will continue to face, and among all the devastation our eyes see surrounding us, we have learned to be a collective family. For this, all of us are grateful. There is joy in the hardship each of us face with every passing hour. We have found that our daily hardships have made our spirits stronger. Surely, no man, woman, or child has been left behind among us. We encourage and strengthen each other. This is what Life is all about.

Michael Edward


http://www.rense.com/general56/eekk.htm

pray for florida, and pray for peace

From the source of your first link:

NEXUS is an international bi-monthly alternative news magazine, covering the fields of: Health Alternatives; Suppressed Science; Earth's Ancient Past; UFOs & the Unexplained; and Government Cover-Ups.

onlinejournal is not a conspiracy "web page"

if you people had the brains to conduct your own searches instead of being spoonfed the MAINSTREAM Media (i had to re-word Media for one incompetant reader) then maybe you'd get a glimpse of the true nature of our twisted reality. of course, like in electronics, people (like currents) will always choose the path of least resistance (just take CNN's word for it)

So all the media whether they be left or right wing or in whatever country colluded to cover this up. Did they all convene and decide this or are they all controlled by the great lizards in the sky. What precisely what every single news organisation have to gain out of this. Yet against this house of lies there is one onlinejournal spouting conspiracies backed up with no reliable evidence.

FOCLMAO,, and next we will hear from someone that has some info about all the news media gag orders. :D

Information control at it's best, right here at Scifoolems Forums.

onlinejournal is not a conspiracy "web page"

Sorry, where have you attributed any information to that source?

if you people had the brains to conduct your own searches instead of being spoonfed the MAINSTREAM Media (i had to re-word Media for one incompetant reader)

Ah, the usual retort, everyone else is too stupid to see it, and conspiracy nutters are more enlightened. No. Not at all, actually. We're NOT gullible, and don't believe conspiracies without evidence. So far, you've shown nothing, and so far ALL the allegations have been debunked on this thread.

of course, like in electronics, people (like currents) will always choose the path of least resistance

See, you're wrong here too. If you have a couple of resistors in parallel, current flows through them in inverse proportion to their resistance, it does not all flow through the lowest. I suggest you hit the schoolbooks, and leave the conspiracy web sites alone for a while.


heres links regarding the horrible hurricane disasters.

Ah, usual conspiracy nutter's tactic, instead of providing evidence for one topic, after making allegations, just change topics! Take th hurricane stuff to another thread, kid, and stick to the topic here. Provide evidence for your claims, and actually cite your sources.

just in case you guys havent seen this;

http://www.overclockedgaming.com/pentagoncrash.html

if TV was scientifically proven to cause cancer, do you think they would tell you on the News Channel ??

You guys are .... hopeless.

Yes I'm sure it would be reported in the news even if not the TV news. I've seens stories about health risks of TV. What about the BBC seeing as it's publically owned. This is irrelevant anyway. We've already seen that there is no evidence and now you haven't shown there to be a motive.

*a side note* you guys know the hurricanes that hit florida ? "CNN" and other MEdia Outlets claim a low # of people died, like 30 or something. Did you know that the REAL DEATH TOLL is OVER 400 ??? you chumps will swallow whatever Big Brother feeds you like fucking spoonfed babies!!!

all i can say is look for information, and think for your damn selves !Actually, the media consistently over-reports hurricane death tolls. Most hurricane deaths aren’t people who are actually killed by the storm, but people who die accidentally during the cleaning up; guys who cut their own leg off with chainsaws, fall off the roof trying to repair shingle damage, get electrocuted by trying to move a tree that fell over a power line, etc. I suppose you could argue that those people were ‘killed by the hurricane,’ but not really in the way that the media usually presents it. Higher body counts are good for news, I guess.

The information on the web page that you linked to is just laughable. It includes such absurd statements as Just ask any survivor of Andrew what the six-and-a-half-hour siege was like and the answer will always be the same. "We didn't have any prior warning. We heard hurricane Andrew suddenly bearing down on us like a speeding locomotive."I live in Florida and have been through many hurricanes - my house is in the path of hurricane Frances as I write this. I remember Andrew quite well, and there were days of warning. Anyone who had over five brain cells took the warnings seriously and evacuated.

So what happened to Flight 77?

What happened to the Pentagon, what hit it?

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon121.swf

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/boeing.htm

We already have a thread on this where it belongs, in Pseudoscience.

Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. There were hundreds of witnesses (http://www.criticalthrash.com/terror/crashthumbnails.html), who watched her skim over traffic, clipping off poles, and glanced off the ground at a very shallow angle just in front of the entrance. There is a wealth of evidence and eyewitness accounts for what happened, and the differing interaction between a heavy reinforced-concrete structure (Pentagon) and light steel structure (WTC) is very well understood (http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/020910.Sozen.Pentagon.html). The impacts were very different, because the structures impacted were very different.

What has not been examined by the public is the degree of training and proficiency required of the attack pilots. There is no way that the autopilots and navigation systems of these jets could have been programmed to fly the profiles to impact that a great deal of irrefutable evidence shows to have been flown. ("Profile" in this context means a set of airspeed, altitude, g-forces, airframe elasticity, Mach buffet, target closure, and other extremely unique and challenging factors) The pilots at the controls at the 3 target impact sites, 3 for 3, were certainly trained in high-speed jet attack, and that training very likely occured under American instruction, in the Royal Saudi Air Force. Wherever this highly specialized training ocurred, there were certainly many duplicates of official records of training in each country involved.

If you are intrigued by actual conspiracies, then look into why the American public is being denied valuable and pertinent information, regarding exactly how and where these pilots were trained: The skills they so expertly demonstrated are not learned in civilian flight schools, nor are they learned in "terrorist training camps": These pilots learned hands-on how to visually put bombs on target at high speed and low level. They applied this extremely specialized experience 3 for 3, by closing with the target just as in low-level gravity-bomb attack, and then deliberately "fixating" on the target, just as many hapless attack pilots have inadvertently done, which usually results in a perfect bullseye, jet and all.

Do a little more research, Randolpho, and then maybe you can turn your curiocity and scepticism toward something more real and productive.

I don’t know but the idea of crashing a plane in level flight does not seem that hard, I would like to see flight simulator tests proving that it would take a experienced pilot to crash a airliner jet into the WTC or the Pentagon. Not until more solid evidence is brought up rather then opinions will this be allowed here.

We already have a thread on this where it belongs, in Pseudoscience.

thanks for your opinion, but if it belongs in pseudoscience, can anyone answer in a logical fashion; why was there only a small entry hole (wound) into the building, what happened to the wings & tail that should have been sheared off at impact, why did it seem that a hardened missile hit through 3 of the rings, what happened to all the wreckage & bodies there after the crash?

My theory is that a USAF jet fired 2 missiles at Flight 77, one hit the plane & the other hit the Pentagon.

But we're still left with the problem; what happened to the wreckage?

And why cover-it-up?


BTW, I protest this thread being relegated to "Pseudoscience"

"why was there only a small entry hole (wound) into the building, what happened to the wings & tail that should have been sheared off at impact"

The Purdue University link I highlighted as "well understood" above, Randolfo, introduces some of the data. Watch the sequences here (http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/cmh/simulation/) and you'll gain a better sense of the physics: Flight 77 was shredded and burned at high speed. This is nothing like the old barnstorming stunts of a slow biplane leaving its wings behind in a slow collision with a barn. The impact was very high-energy, oblique (not a full- wingspan vector) and also a very difficult shot to line up without considerable piloting skill.

The command pilots were largely made out to be bumblers who performed poorly in civilian flight schools, when they were in fact highly-trained military pilots who only needed to perfect their knowledge of 757 cockpit layouts, characteristics, and airline security procedures during their late mission preparations in the USA. I'll be glad to discuss the flying technique aspects more with you, but until you take some time to understand why the impact results were not what many expected (like an approach-speed, open-terrain airline accident debris field), then there's no point.

But if you'll spend a little time with the Purdue study, I think you'll understand better how a 757 can be mostly obliterated and consumed by a 575 mph impact with an array of massive reinforced-concrete pillars, and how, like any high-energy ballistic "entry wound", the dimensions of damage at the point of initial contact is surprisingly small- but not invisible- Flight 77 bounced off the ground in a terrific impact, the wings were flexed upwards somewhat on rebound as she hit the outer wall, and in many photos you can see where the wings knifed through the walls (and were themselves sliced up).

Another example that may be helpful to you, Randolfo, would be to take a look at the 737 crashes in Colorado Springs and Pittsburgh. In both cases, very similar in size to the 757 went into the ground at a high rate of speed. The debris fields were *tiny* (the one in Pittsburgh fit into a guy's back yard). ValuJet would be another example of this, in some ways.

In all three cases, the amount of recovered debris was similar to that of UA77, if not less. There's no visible fuselage in any of those three cases. No visible "broken off" tail structure. It's all just "gone".

It's funny how these cases are ignored by the 9/11 conspiracy theorists. They don't even try to explain that discrepency. They simply don't tell you about it. You might want to give that some thought.

By the way, accoring to the 9/11 Commission Report, UA 77 was also observed before and during the event by a passing Coast Guard C-130 pilot. His testimony is fully documented and available online.

No it is not funny at all, Pangloss.
But the fact remains with those other crashes you mention debris field, it is obvious in any of the Pentagon images there was no debris field what so ever.

But the fact remains with those other crashes you mention debris field, it is obvious in any of the Pentagon images there was no debris field what so ever.

That's not what I see. But more to the point, that's a layman's interpretation of events. The conspiracy sites claim expert analysis, but in fact they're making very amateurish assessments, and thinking you won't notice because they speak authoritatively.

Ask for their credentials. You'll find them wanting.

Rando kid, how dare you posted something non anti islamic? I am very pissed. Please get back to your regular duty given to you by saul. :D

I wont reprint the whole thing here and instead point to a link:

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=89&contentid=790&page=2

This basically outlines a central and most disgusting theory,i DONT want to believe it even if it was true.

Sorry if this has been posted here or anywhere else before but what are your opinions.

My personal opinion is conspiricy theories are just that,theories,and the idea is to look for holes,the central argument against these theories has always been "if you can look for the holes and spot them then why didnt the conspirer also do so"

Like moon landing being faked,people pointed out obvious things that would have clearly been obvious to the conspirer.

You should try to post threads in their proper subforum.

I respect that,but which one?

i mean ive looked and this would cover science,world events,politics and free thinking opinion/general.

Like how about the science of mobile/cell phones in planes cos thats worth a mention,the PHYSICS of certain things and politics,this is an all rounder in my opinion mate.

Fair enough.

The real conspiracies are actually so blantantly obvious and important but nobody cares about them.

For instance Bush and his business links.

Does this article have quotes ro documents to back up the suggestions? NO

Does this article have quotes ro documents to back up the suggestions? NO

Well some of whats said is arguments but something that may help might be this:

http://www.unansweredquestions.net/background_44.php

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ROW205A.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PatriotSaints/message/297

and various pages here:
http://www.patriotsaints.com/News/911/Conspiracy/IntelligenceKnew/index.html

Is it at all possible the plane was shot down with not one,but two missiles,but one missed and hit the pentagon,by the airforce?,
seeing as america has a great history of friendly fire and "woops" embarrising mistakes id not be surprised if they wanted to cover up that little detail,plus how bad it sounds to intercept and shoot down a passenger plane.

On the other hand its reported the airforce were told to hold back,even though they knew the planes were hyjacked,otherwise theyd normally shoot all the planes down before hitting building etc.

the only problem with ted gunderson ex fbi website

http://www.tedgunderson.com/911Report/911intro.htm

is the bottom line of photo evidence he says:

"It is my opinion, as a result of 23 years of experience dealing with satanic cults, that the fall of the World Trade Center was executed by Satanists who have infiltrated the Government"

If this is ted's view it throws it into loony tunes territory.

I think the FBI guy from your last reference is a looney... executed by satanist, his evidence: about two sentences and a cover from a rap group, that has a sublimial message hidden in its two-word title... and we all know how that rappers are notorious satanists..

Since Alot of people have been posting on 9/11. This will become the resident 9/11 Conspiracy thread, rather than having alot of cross-posted and repeated conspiracies.

firstly America has ACTUALLY committed FAKE TERROR ATTACKS. for example America was planning to completrly fake the inking of a US ship and bnlame it on the Cubans to start a war... this is a FACT that was later proved by CIA documents and is NOT a conspirzcy theory

im not getting involed with the conspiracy there are questions that the govermant needs to answer. Spidergoat, the flying into the two towers is an EXTREMELY hard and skilled manouver which anyone who simply recieved simkple training from a small 2 man plane cannot do. in the interviews Sky One did with professional JET FIGHTER PILOTS and also PROFESSIONAL AIRLINE PIOLTS they even said they could NOT do that. apart from that it is a bit funny how America linked Osama Bin Laden to the attack only MINUTES after the explosions and gave the names of ALL the terror suspects within days. BBC LATER FOUND OUT THAT 7 OF THE MEN ARE ACTUALLY ALIVE AND LIVING IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

also the plane that apparently crashed in Pensilvanyia was more likely shot down. EYE WITNESS REPORTS said that they saw a jet follow the plane and then fire. ALSO, the engine was over EIGHT miles away from the rest of the debris, that is only possible if the plane was struck by a missile as normally.

also this is very strange did you know what the proof that one of the men did the attacks is??? well America says apparently after the planes crashed into the twoers a PASSPORT somehow managed to fall down from the plane taht had kjust exploded and landed perfectly on the ground untouched next to the towers as evidence :rolleyes: hmm sound like planted evidence :confused:

also AN IMPORTANT FACT is that the TWIN TOWERS HAD TO BE DEMOLISHED ANYWAY by 2025 as it wouild be considered a hazard by then. JUST BEFORE the attacks a MAJOR insurance policy with ATLEAST $3.55 BILLION was bought on the towers and that was also covered for TERRORIST attacks aswell. PLUS just before the attacks THE SHARES ON AMERICAN AIRLINES WAS DRAMATICALLY betted as if people somehow knew that Airline shares were gonna dramatically and suddenly fall soon.

also the towers just fell in one go without resistance almostlike a demoltion of a building and there was no resistence that should of occured becasue of the multi million dollar safety structure

:confused:

good points preacher, i tried to speak some of these same points... especially the planted passport.

theres the two extremes of the spectrum, one side is the masses who swallow what the mainstream media says, and on the other side is the 'conspiracy theorist' who knows the government did this entire attack.

somewhere in the middle, we find some controversial grounds. i hope this lets the people know that SOMETHING FISHY is going on here somewhere...

Regarding conspiracy theories, I am just left wondering how any one thinks the U.S. government could hide this one, greatest tragedy of all time, when Bill Clinton could not even conceal his BJ. Just a thought. Perhaps the cigar was an alien ship.....

Conspiriricies are a funny thing,its easy to turn round and say:

"hey couldnt they have covered thier tracks better?"

Well if they did then there wouldnt be any conspiricies would there,i mean if there are no "plot holes" to fill then you wont find one.

Finding a motive dont always mean anything either,i mean i bet you have motives to kill certain people,so do i,but it dont mean that if they do die you are automatically responsible.

So in that case dont that mean every conspiricy is 100% false?

well it SHOULD but theres your problem.

A murderer is found guilty because not only was there a motive but there was holes in his/her story plus a reasonable amount of evidence,the jury see this as enough to put someone away,the jury is the general public.

Now i see motives for the government,i see holes in the story plus some loose evidence,if this is enough they should at least be investigated,but they dont and thats the fucking point the government can get away with this kinda shit cos not only does it not get investigated properly but the general public are not gonna believe thier government would do it.

So yes they dont even need to cover their tracks that much,in the case of clinton its not considered a big deal to anyone except clinton,so its likely that no one except clinton would try to cover tracks.

Heres another thing to ponder:
if there was no evidence suggesting government involvement does that make them more suspect,i mean say they covered thier tracks properly what then?,that means they would be guilty but youd have no clue whatsoever.

Essentially if you cover your tracks youre not considered guilty but ARE,if you dont cover your tracks people think youre innocent cos you didnt cover your tracks,in this case maybe you are guilty or are not guilty.

Its tricky,youd think they would manage to cover it but then again its a hard thing to cover,so cos its hard to do means they didnt do it?

Or maybe they have already suceeded,as most people wont believe the conspiricy theories,maybe they really are wrong.

i tried to speak some of these same points... especially the planted passport.

Yeah, you mentioned it, and when I asked for a reputable source, you never offered it.

So it remains just an allegation on some crank web sites, unless you can prove otherwise. I couldn't find a reputable source. The nearest I got was a charred fragment from one of the other hijackers passports was found.

the black boxes of the planes that hit the WTC were destroyed, but hijacker Mohammed Atta's passport was found in pristine condition

I've just figgured it all out!!!! it's like this:

Mohammad Atta, was at that time in the WTC building,...it had been known for months beforehand that he was going to be there together with some other saudi's to take care of some bussines. (with back-up from saudi oil money he wanted to start an airline bussiness)

The goverment didn't want this and struck with some super secret remote controlled planes the WTC towers, both of them, because they coulnd't figgure out wich office they were at.

Then: when the plane hit,...Atta's passport flew out of his pocket and out of the window by the blast,...and like a leaf, swirled to the ground,

Then the building collapsed on top of it, leaving it practically undamaged, since it was protected by a LARGE piece of concrete.

Well, glad this issue got settled, now we can forget about attacts! It was just to defend America from some forein concurence!

Duh,... is this pseudosience enough? or you want more?

WTF is bothering me is that the whole of this discussion is discarted as Pseudosience.

It's purely classed as pseudoscience because all speculated "conspiracies" lack evidence to otherwise suggest them a reality, while such evidence is lacking it remains to be "Proven", therefore exists within the realms of pseudoscience (although it's not exactly a science)

Then all threads related to those attacts by Moslim terrorist should also be place inhere with the rest of the pseudosience.

Because that too is 'just' a theory...

a Theory accepted by the mass-media and others but STILL a theory.

Antisipatience, there is and was the media thrill seekers, the media hype, that is what they do, that is what they get paid to do. There are the conspiracy theorists that pick through the rubble of information hype and misdirection.

My initial reaction when watching the live feed of the towers coming down, and the slow motion playbacks was those towers came down on themselves just like a pryo-demolition. With all the discussions, investigations, theories etc. it still remains, there was something entirely wrong with that whole scenario of the towers coming down, and obviously there were planes.

It still remains there was something entirely wrong with the Pentagon scenario, obviously the absence of a plane.

I keep in mind there will be a time when we will know the full details of all these anomalous occurrences, tic toc.
:D

yeah! (in the year 105.412.326)

vera,

If it wasn't an American airliner, then where did the flight go which took off that morning? Did a whole planeload of people just disappear?


Hummmm, interesting... ;) Anyways, lets get back to the conspiracy and not worry about that...geez. :bugeye:

I just saw a plane fly over my house, and it DID NOT LAND!

Rando kid, how dare you posted something non anti islamic? I am very pissed. Please get back to your regular duty given to you by saul. : Dthere you go again, muslims always wanting to tell others what to do,
Hey, it's a democracy here, everyone gets to say their piece, heard enough? so go back to sleep, walker