Sorry to keep coming back to this…

Reading this board is very interesting, as well as very disturbing. There are people on here with very powerful beliefs. On both sides of the argument (IE Christian/non-Christian there appears to be very little representation from other religions). The point I just can’t get clear of is this whole proof vs Faith argument. And peoples willingness to accept something as concrete FACT without anyway of knowing that they’re correct.

I submit that Faith (Pure faith) is a fundamentally flawed concept. And that true faith is always based on fact of some kind. Religious faith is no longer (And may never have been) based on any facts of any kind. As a rock climber it could be said that I have faith in my ropes. But that’s faith based on evidence and the balance of probabilities. I know that the material the rope is made from is capable of supporting my weight.

The only proof that is generally offered up for Christianity is the presence of God and the personal relationship with god. As I’ve said before these are subjective and cannot be proved. In addition it can be proved that what’s experienced in the brain may not be “real” no matter how “real” it feels. This means that at best you should be suspicious enough to seek additional proof.

A few examples:

Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night (especially when I was younger) and feel like there is something in the room with me I would believe this wholly and yet I’d also know that there wasn’t, couldn’t be anyone there. And of course there wasn’t.

People who have a limb amputated often are left with something called a phantom limb. This limb can fell 100% real a physical to the effected individual even to the point of trying to pick up objects with a phantom hand or try and stand on a phantom leg (And fall over obviously). Again the point is if there person where to trust what he was feeling he would have to assume that his limb was still there! And yet clearly it isn’t.

Scientist in Oxford (The city where I live) have been able to induce feelings of a presence, flying over water and various other intense physical as well as psychological effects.

Dreams… Unless you believe that every single dream you’ve ever had was real and objective in some way.

At worst these facts should make you realise that any personal subjective evidence you feel you have must be considered potentially suspect. Even if you think you right shouldln't you at least acknowledge the possibility. If you can't aknowledge that possibility then I sugest you examine the reasons for that very carefully. Because assumtion that one can't be wrong is extremely dangerous!!

In conclusion, Pure Faith can’t exist because people will always has a reason for believing something even if it’s just because that’s what they’ve been told. Faith based on Subjective feelings can’t be trusted because of the brains incredible ability to make things up. Often based on what it's been told to expect.

And if Pure faith deosn't exist then neither does a God who demands it!



------------------
Why?

I competely agree...

Religious faith has no proof. It shouldn't either because we manifested religion because we couldn't understand our world or the reasons why we are here.

There is another type of faith which does have proof. Everyone has faith of this type.

Personally I have no religious faith at all because I understand that we created religion. I did this by looking at evidence of religious diversity and contempling why old religious don't exist today. They don't exist because some type of scienctific discovery has made the religion obsolete.

Greek Mythology is a good example. Apollo the sun god would ride on his chariot across the sky. We know know the the sun isn't a chariot. There are many other good examples but I think you guys get my point.

Thanks Open Minded Elf, you are wise.

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

I'm not a big believer in dieties, I'd just like to see about a definition of faith, or at least an identification of different levels of faith. You have faith in your equipment for rock-climbing based on something very real, i.e., prior experience. Religious faithfuls are drawing on a different type of faith, a faith that can have no prior experience, unless it's viewed from an angle that I'm sure those with gods or goddesses will deny. They do not have faith in their dieties so much as they have faith in what has been fundamentally told to them about their dieties.

Even the modern trend of interpretting religions to fit personal lifestyles still revolves around basic constants. For example, the Christian god will welcome everyone into the Kingdom of Heaven. (Whether or not you have to repent first is one of those customizable things.) This has been a constant in the Christian teachings since their inception. The faithful today still believe this. They are putting their faith in words written only a little less than 2000 years ago (basing the example on the current versions of the bible). It isn't their god they are trusting so much as the writer who recorded those words. Whether the writer actually received the word of God is something that nobody today can prove to the extent that the reliability of your rock-climbing equipment has been proven. The faithful are trusting this anonymous person and the countless editors and revisionists in between who have gotten hold of the story to tell them the truth.

I think, in comparing the faith you have in your climbing gear to faith in a diety, you have identified two different types of faith. One faith is based on what is known prior to excersizing that faith, and has it's roots in logic and certain precautions (I'm sure you keep your gear maintained, replaced frayed or worn ropes as needed). The other is the innocent faith of a child who walks towards his or her father in their first, faltering steps, without a doubt that their father will catch them if they start to fall, even though this child has never walked, nor fallen, before. I believe the second type of faith takes a much stronger committment. It's easy to have faith in something you've already seen work, even knowing the randomness that could suddenly cause a piton to pop free. But to have faith in something that nobody has ever seen work, to stumble clumsily ahead, driven on only by the confidence that you will be caught even though you have never actually seen anybody get caught before, might not make much sense, but that sort of blind faith is no less than the faith that allows you to hang from the side of a cliff-face, placing your trust in equipment that was built by the lowest bidder.

I'm sorry but you made a mistake in your post:
The other is the innocent faith of a child who walks towards his or her father in their first, faltering steps, without a doubt that their father will catch them if they start to fall, even though this child has never walked, nor fallen, before.If the child has never walked how would they know that they could be destined to fall? They learn that from experience. Also, this analogy is referring to the child's trust towards the father, not faith.

Just thought i'd correct you.

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

[This message has been edited by Formerly Chaos (edited July 24, 2000).]

Say, Alfy are you also hooked on that new BBC program about the brain ?
I believe this evening is the second part on BBC2.
I also saw the first episode and
Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night (especially when I was younger) and feel like there is something in the room with me I would believe this wholly and yet I’d also know that there wasn’t, couldn’t be anyone there. And of course there wasn’t.

People who have a limb amputated often are left with something called a phantom limb. This limb can fell 100% real a physical to the effected individual even to the point of trying to pick up objects with a phantom hand or try and stand on a phantom leg (And fall over obviously). Again the point is if there person where to trust what he was feeling he would have to assume that his limb was still there! And yet clearly it isn’t.

Scientist in Oxford (The city where I live) have been able to induce feelings of a presence, flying over water and various other intense physical as well as psychological effects.

was exactly what they were talking about.
However I do think not everything can be reduced to the brain since a lot of what we are and do depends also on our body (for starters) and environment. Of course as a scientist one must put forward some assumptions and test them. I do look forward to the rest of the series...

------------------
I err, therefore I exist !

Chaos-So what is the difference between trust and faith?

I'm not a big believer in dieties

Prove it!

Hey Alf, open your mind for a minute! The "faith" is only subjective to YOU because you don't have it, don't understand it, and haven't experienced it. To YOU, God is subjective because you don't know Him. Just because YOU don't, doesn't mean that no one else does. And just because YOU don't have proof, doesn't mean that no one else does. What you want is for someone to hand you God on a platter, in a petri dish, or under a microscope. Sorry Charlie, but if you want proof of Him, and you want to know Him, then you're going to have to look the right way. Don't expect Him to fly into your bedroom at night on a lightning bolt and tell you about how it is. You can know Him and have all the proof you would ever need if you really wanted to, but apparently you don't want to.

Faith and proof are not mutually exclusive. Your definition of faith is skewed. Your very definition is a belief in something that you have no proof of. An irrational belief? That's not faith. Faith is simply an acknowledgment of God. Faith is trusting God in understanding of who He is. Faith is obeying His commandments because you KNOW who He is and that He is real. It's not one or the other, but a little proof fosters a little faith and a little faith fosters a lot of proof, and a lot of proof fosters a little more faith, and a little more faith fosters a lot more proof, and so on, and so on...

Faith is more than just an acceptance of God's reality too. You sound like you think it just stops there. God is a huge thing to accept and understand, and accepting Him means accepting everything about Him and who He is to you. It's all encompassing, and has to do with His will in your life as long as you live, and regarding every little thing. It's a life long journey building faith, and it's not easy. No it's still not easy, EVEN GIVEN THE OVERWHELMING PROOF. Ha!

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 25, 2000).]

No the Faith is subjective because it is dependant on the person experiencing it. Even if that person is me that doesn't make it any stronger or a weaker an argument. While I might feel differently I would still have to accept that what I was feeling wasn’t proof of the existence of a god. All it is proof of is that I can feel that way.

As for my mind, It’s fully open to any possibilities that can be rationalised and for those things that can’t be I accept that it is possible my understanding is flawed. From that point of view I’d say my mind is far more open than yours. For example are you prepared to admit that your god “might not” exist? Because if truly you have an open mind you have to accept that as a possibility.

Of course none of that changes the fundamental argument. That faith without proof is, on the balance of probabilities, likely to be wrong. Note I said faith without proof. Normal everyday faith, the kind I have in my gear is based on proof. I accept that can and should be the case. My problem is that so far no one has offered anything even remotely resembling proof that Christian faith is justified.

If you have any I would be more than happy to see/hear it! Truely I have nothing against the idea of God there just isn't any reason to believe it! (that I can see)

And as a final note anything that exists in the universe can be measured and proven. Time, Space, Matter, Energy…. We may not have the technology to measure all things yet however one day we will. If god exists then there IS real objective proof of it somewhere out there. I say to all those Christians who want to save peoples soul. Don’t preach to us about a faith you cannot substantiate. Find the proof that has to exist and show us it!

PS. Plato, Yep. Top program and very insightful!


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Why?

[This message has been edited by Open Minded Alf (edited July 25, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Open Minded Alf (edited July 25, 2000).]

Alf! How can I possibly admit that God might not exist when I KNOW He does? I HAVE PROOF, don't you understand??? It's NOT subjective TO ME. Therefore, I have objective proof. Amitting that there may not be a God would be like admitting that the world may actually be flat. You don't understand, this is not just a "feeling" ok? This is not some kind of "feel good" bullshit that I tell myself because it sounds pretty. Getting to know Jesus is the hardest thing and the easiest thing you'll ever do at the same time. Understand that faith is not an irrational or unfounded belief, not my faith in God. My faith in God is a trust that is based upon solid proof in my life and in my heart, but proof that is intensely personal. But very real, and very objective TO ME.

You don't understand that there is a fatal flaw in your position here. You want someone else to prove to you that there is a God. THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE. It's a spiritual law I guess, and of course, it explains this in the Bible. You HAVE to do this yourself. There is no other way. You want to take the lazy approach. You want to buy God at the supermarket, or look at Him under a microscope, or measure Him with a scale and a ruler, or put Him in a bottle with a label "God" and an instruction leaflet. It's like this...if you really want to know God, then you REALLY have to want to know Him. Get it? That's your first lesson in faith. If you do, then you will...it's that simple. That's how faith works. Seek and you shall find, it's guaranteed.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 25, 2000).]

Lori, your last line reminded me of a song...

"My wet ear slides to your mouth
Fish me out.

In the dark,
your dark eyes always,
always reflecting,
always reflecting.

In the dark,
your dark eyes always,
always reflecting,
always reflecting.

There is a place,
there is the sign,
where ask is have,
seek is find.

Knock is open,
open wide.
Knock is open,
open wide.

The tongue is the fish in the mouth.
Fish me out.

If I do not see you more,
think about you forever.

My soul's place
is my soul's heaven,
life's creating
you and I.

In the dark,
your dark eyes always,
always reflecting,
always reflecting.

In the dark..."

Not relevant, but a very pretty, trippy, soulful song sung in the most mournful female voice... :) (MoonCat wanders off to pretend to work, humming...'in the daa-aark, your dark eyes all-ways...')

Originally posted by Oxygen:
Chaos-So what is the difference between trust and faith?
Trust - Confidience in the integrity, ability, character, and truth of a person or thing

Faith - A belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

This discussion is mainly Trust vs Faith.


------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

People that have religious faith won't change their beliefs when given material evidence because their faith isn't based on material evidence.

This is why it is futile to change someones beliefs. But can you really TRUST in god?

I didn't think so...

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

YES IT IS BASED ON MATERIAL EVIDENCE! Dag it, the evidence in my life has been flippin' material ok? What you're talking about is wanting God Himself to materialize and walk up and shake your damn hand, and I'm telling you, it's not gonna happen. You tell me, why should it? Why should YOU get to determine what God is? That's irrational. If He's real, and if He's God, then why in the hell would He let YOU dictate His presence?

And yes, all of that evidence shows you that you CAN trust God. He is the only thing that you can trust for sure. More than you can trust your own self, how's that?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

You can't trust in god unless you know he is true. Do you have any material evidence that suggest god is real? No because your belief in god is based on faith.

I will now consider this the end of the discussion unless you can come up with some material evidence to validate your faith. Otherwise you can't trust in god!

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

[This message has been edited by Formerly Chaos (edited July 25, 2000).]

Chaos,

Look around you buddy! Every natural thing in our universe is the product of a mighty God.
It interested me recently to see a scientist (when they unraveled the whole gene code) state that we now have the INSTRUCTION booklet for the complexities of the human body. Instruction booklets and codes could only be written and given by intelligent entities such as a God, our infintely loving creator.

Every natural thing in our universe is the product of a mighty God.

Prove it!

Lori,

Something cannot be "objective to you"! Objective: Concerned with the actual features of the thing dealt with rather than the thoughts, feelings, etc.

Objective is objective to everyone that’s why it's objective. It describes real things in real terms.

Your analogy with the Earth being flat. I can prove to you, if you want, that the earth is round. I can describe real experiments that will provide real objective evidence that the earth is round. I can provide photographic evidence of the curvature of the earth and any one of a number of other facts and figures to support the claim. If I couldn’t provide any of that I wouldn’t be so sure I was right!

I’m not suggesting that you believe in God because you can’t handle a world without one. I don’t think it’s just a comfort thing because it’s damn hard to be a true Christian and I’m sure you are one.

I have no real interest in disproving God. What I hate seeing is intelligent (probably more so than me!) thoughtful, good people being so taken in by something that on the face of it from someone who has been a Christian for a time is contradictory and plain and simply virtually impossible. There is NO way that I can see to reconcile the numerous holes in the Christian belief system. And without any “Objective” supporting evidence Well, It’d be like me telling you that I’m a fifth century King who’s lived forever. No supporting evidence and a bunch of question that I won’t answer. The only conclusion is that I’m not.

So what it all boils down to after all this debate is your personal relationship with Jesus. This is something I cannot easily prove or disprove. At least not with out a lot of very expensive equipment and a Degree in Psychology and Neuroscience.

So unless you can accept the real objective evidence that proves that what we experience in the brain “can be” false then there is no more to say. Once you accept that our experiences of God (And yes I have had them! And I know how powerful it can be) can’t be trusted as 100% fact then we need to look elsewhere for confirmation, and there isn’t any.

You’ll probably read this and disregard it, your beliefs are so far ingrained that you won’t even explorer the possibility that there might be some other explanation. That is truly being closed minded. And that can only be a bad thing.


------------------
Why?

Objective is objective to everyone that’s why it's objective. It describes real things in real terms.

Prove it!


I’m not suggesting that you believe in God because you can’t handle a world without one.


Prove it!

Alf,

How do you explain the experiences of Lori, Tony, Francis, ISDAMan, other christians, and myself? I mean do you really believe that we are all delusional?

Have you read Tony's testimony? It's been forever and a day since Lori has put hers up... but she too was not spoon fed religion.
I was raised in church..yes, but man...I resented being made to go when I was young...and until recently was as far away from God as one could get. So how is it that at least three of us on this board went from one extreme to another? It's not like we just decided to jump on the christian faith train, ya know?

Flash, It’s not a case of why it’s a case of what. The reasons why you all came to the church are no doubt different. For some people it’s because they’re brought up with it. For others it’s because something happens to them during there life. For me, it was because I was finding it hard to deal with life and if there was a God it seemed like the best place to turn.

The really important thing is What do you believe. You believe that you are in contact with God (or Jesus) that he talks to you and helps you I guess. Correct me if I’m wrong. That is the only really viable reason for you to believe in him.

People tend to think of themselves as being either well or not well. There brains are either working or they’re not. People who’s brains aren’t working are considered delusional, psychotic or whatever. In truth we all see things that aren’t there. We all read meaning into events that have none. Mental illness is simply a more extreme manifestation of what we all experience anyway. When you look at your computer your not “seeing” anything, your eyes are converting photons into electrical signals that your brain then interprets. Our eyes are only really any good at seeing things in the dead centre of our vision. Roughly equivalent to an American quarter held at arms length. Everything you see outside of that is processed by the brain to fill in the missing detail in essence it’s not real. When you touch something it’s a mental reconstruction of your body that feels that touch. A construction in the brain again in essence it’s not real.

Are you delusional, Maybe. If you are does that mean you’re mentally ill. Of course not it just means that like the rest of us you see a combination of what’s there, what you want to see and what you expect to see. The danger is that your belief is so unshakeable that you’re not open to the possibility that you might be wrong. We’re human beings, we question, we wonder, we try and figure things out. That’s what makes us different. I’m not asking you to renounce your God I’m just asking you to question yourself. Ask why things happen, ask yourself if something really is likely to be an act of God or just coincidence. Because it all boils down to this. You cannot be sure your right, Just as I can’t be. Accepting that we just can’t be sure is probably the most important aspect of this whole thing.

Some people (especially religious people) don’t like science because they think it’s trying to kill God and Magic. Science is the quest to understand. It is exactly the same as religion except that it accepts nothing is 100% fact it constantly questions itself. If religion simply accepted that premise it would turn into science. We can and do find answers but only through having an open mind and accepting that what we believe at the moment may not be correct.


------------------
Why?

Uncertainty is indeed a key stone of the scientific method. However this uncertainty can be made smaller and smaller.
What every one has is some sort of basic premise from which to start and explain the rest of the world. This basic premise however is prone to error, like every thing else we know. Therefore one must constantly aware of the fact that there is no such thing as solid rock on which to build ones world view on.
There are degrees of certainty of course but now and then even the firmest of believes must come crashing down. The scientific method anticipates this breaking down and calls it's basic premises theories. True scientific theories must be able to be proven wrong some way or the other. If, through constant experimentation a theory withstands being disproven one can talk about a fact. Note however that in this definition a fact still can be wrong but the chance for it to be so is negligible.
Some questions can not be disproven like 'Is there an invisible elephant standing next to me that makes no sound and eludes all my other senses as well ?' These questions are not scientific.
I 'm afraid that 'Is there a god' falls under the same category...

------------------
I err, therefore I exist !

People tend to think of themselves as being either well or not well.

Prove it!


These questions are not scientific.


Prove it!

Alf,

Ok, I see where you are coming from now...FINALLY :D Alf, the thing is I have questioned God/Jesus. Lori and I alone debated here and via e-mail for well over a year. She stood firm in what she believed and so did I. Whenever I'd read something scriptural I'd do my best to try to tear it apart. The way I believed...the way I felt..the very LAST thing I thought I'd ever do is commune with God/Jesus. I can't take a physical sample of God and give it to you. God is a spiritual being not physical. The proof is the changes in other lives due to God. I've been on the outside before and when people have said such things I just shook my head because it didn't make any sense to me either. Not until I met Him. The only thing I can think of is that you are trying to understand this and see this as in the physical... it's just not that way. Just as there is a physical realm there is also a spiritual one as well.

Flash,

I suspect in your last remark much more then what you are saying. See, as I remember you were already convinced there was something like a spirital realm way before you joined this board. This made the step towards a supervising, omnipotent creature much smaller then for someone like me who doesn't even accept the existence of a spiritual realm.
You see you were already half way there, all you needed was someone convincing enough like Lori to flip the metaphysical balance into god's favour.

------------------
I err, therefore I exist !

Ok, I see where you are coming from now...FINALLY

Prove it!


See, as I remember you were already convinced there was something like a spirital realm way before you joined this board.


Prove it!

Alf,

Your definition of objective is what I've got. You're being patronizing, though I'm sure you don't intend. I've told you this before, so listen up...this isn't a thought or a feeling of MINE. It's not a thought or a feeling at all. Features? Yea, the features of God. He's real, and He's in my face.

And that's what it always comes down to with you non-believers isn't it? You say "Give me evidence! Give me proof!" And as soon as someone does, you say "Well, you must be delusional then, cause that just can't be true"!!!! Give me a fucking break ok?! If you don't want to know, then don't ask, but don't fucking call my ass delusional. That is soooooooo lame and tired! Sorry, but try to put yourself in my shoes and then pretend that oh, I don't know, practically everyone on this board at one time or another, did that to you.

Ok, and finally, this is what REALLY gets my panties in a bunch...this crapola about questioning. Are you honestly telling me that you think I don't question?!!!!! Are you honestly telling me that you think I'm so fucking stupid and apathetic that I would accept the faith that I've got without looking into every other flippin' thing first?! This is a life-long journey buddy, and I've just started. But I tell you what, I've been searching for a long long time. And I'm up on science, and I'm educated, and I'm a good thinker, better than most. I question EVERYTHING. Always have; I'm analytically, and mathematically minded, and I just can't help it. AND BECAUSE I QUESTION EVERYTHING, I BELIEVE IN GOD. It pisses me off so bad that you ASSUME that the reason I believe in God is because I don't question, or don't question enough, or because it's easier than questioning. BULLSHIT! I believe in God because of the exact opposite reason....because I do question, and I have questioned everything, and I like it! Believe me...I like right answers...like in math...I'm good at it....big huge complicated puzzles with many many variables...get's me excited just thinkin' about it....and believe me...when it comes to this big puzzle called life...Jesus is the right answer...I'VE DONE THE MATH!

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Originally posted by Lori:
Alf,


And that's what it always comes down to with you non-believers isn't it? You say "Give me evidence! Give me proof!" And as soon as someone does, you say "Well, you must be delusional then, cause that just can't be true"!!!! Give me a fucking break ok?! If you don't want to know, then don't ask, but don't fucking call my ass delusional. That is soooooooo lame and tired! Sorry, but try to put yourself in my shoes and then pretend that oh, I don't know, practically everyone on this board at one time or another, did that to you.

Ok, and finally, this is what REALLY gets my panties in a bunch...this crapola about questioning. Are you honestly telling me that you think I don't question?!!!!! Are you honestly telling me that you think I'm so fucking stupid and apathetic that I would accept the faith that I've got without looking into every other flippin' thing first?! This is a life-long journey buddy, and I've just started. But I tell you what, I've been searching for a long long time. And I'm up on science, and I'm educated, and I'm a good thinker, better than most. I question EVERYTHING. Always have; I'm analytically, and mathematically minded, and I just can't help it. AND BECAUSE I QUESTION EVERYTHING, I BELIEVE IN GOD. It pisses me off so bad that you ASSUME that the reason I believe in God is because I don't question, or don't question enough, or because it's easier than questioning. BULLSHIT! I believe in God because of the exact opposite reason....because I do question, and I have questioned everything, and I like it! Believe me...I like right answers...like in math...I'm good at it....big huge complicated puzzles with many many variables...get's me excited just thinkin' about it....and believe me...when it comes to this big puzzle called life...Jesus is the right answer...I'VE DONE THE MATH!



Good morning everyone!! ~ :D
Lori, how you feeling today? Just a forewarning, I would be willing to bet that "aaaaaaaaaaa" is going to come back on your comment about your panties being in a bunch (hmmmm) with 'prove it'. Watch.
As for us non-believers, that's a generalization. I don't want or need proof. It's your belief, it's what give you strength, keeps you going. More power to ya!

AND, if some irrefutable proof were to be presented do you honestly believe that the non-believers would say something to the effect of '...that can't be. You're still wrong'? C'mon, give us a little credit. Just because we don't believe does not mean that we are stupid.

Nor do I believe for a minute that you are stupid. What you believe doesn't make you delusional or unintelligent. I might think you're a nutter for your beliefs, but you might think the same of me for mine. Okay.

I don't know. I guess what I'm trying to put across is that what's important to you, to each individual, is really what matters. Differing opinions are ALWAYS going to exist, is it worth getting bent out of shape over?

And for what it's worth, you do not strike me as "...so fucking stupid and apathetic...". Just the opposite.

You're not going to change the world, just don't let it change you.

PEACE!




[This message has been edited by Heathen (edited July 26, 2000).]

Ok ok... Semantics, we can argue over the definition of words all week and it won't achive anything.

I'm sorry for patronizing you, I get fairly worked up sometimes. I know it sounds like I'm rubbishing everything you believe in but I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it all.

I guess it boils down to fundamentally opposed views of the world. And yes I still think your delusional but don't take it to heart I think everyone is to some extent I know I am! Thats one of my beliefs. And thats why I have such a hard time with your subject/objective proof thing.

Ah, Heathens post come is as I was writing this and he's right. I should really only have respect for the strength of your convictions.

Anyway This argument has been great from my point of view! Sorry for pissing you off in the process, I truly didn't mean to and I think it's clear your not unintellegent or apathetic... I may not have discovered any great truth yet but I've had to question myself pretty damn hard about what I believe and that can only be a good thing

Later guys and Gals.



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Why?

*yanking panties out of my ass*

You just reminded me of a fave song...

I feel angry, I feel helpless,
Want to change the world, yea.
I feel violent, I feel alone,
Don't try to change my mind, no.

One, oh one, the only way is ONE!

ONE KING!!!!!

Sorry Heathen, my attitude comes from my pride....idolizing my own intelligence. That's a sin, did you know that? Sorry.

But really, I have questioned the shit out of everything I know to question. And I could continue, and will continue to do that for the rest of my life. But relatively, it didn't take too much questioning (relatively mind you) to come to the conclusion that God is real. Listen, if you really want to know, which I don't know why you wouldn't, then pray!!!!!! It's a spiritual law ok? If you pray to God for the truth, He will show you the truth. Ok then, what are you going to say to that, Mr."that can't be...you're still wrong"? Do it, but you really have to WANT to know. Honestly Heathen, I know this from personal experience...most people really don't WANT to know. For most people, the idea of knowing the truth is terrifying...their worst nightmare. Do you understand why? Think about it for a minute....what if you were to find evidence right now that God exists? Would you be happy or terrified? Would you be afraid of how that knowledge would change your life? What it really means? Do you REALLY want to know?


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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

~ Oh Yeah? :D ~

You just reminded me of a fave song...

Creed, great band.

~No apology necessary. From my standpoint, you were defending your intelligence and standing up for what you believe in. For that you should never be sorry.

~ You want to know something? I do pray. Not every night, but many nights. And not when things are bad or when I am down, it's usually just to say 'thank you'. Like I state, I don't believe, so nobody come back on me about this, it's just like talking to yourself.
~ I would like to know, it would settle these arguments once and for all.

~ I'd be pissed! That would mean that I was wrong all this time. Nobody like to be proven wrong. Makes 'em feel stupid.

Yeah, I really want to know. Although I really don't know how much it would change my life.



[This message has been edited by Heathen (edited July 26, 2000).]

Heathen honey, if you please, stop re-posting my entire posts. It's wasted space.

So think about how much it would change your life. Think about what it would mean. You would have to really try to understand God before you could do that. So wouldn't that be a good thing? I mean, what do you have to lose really? What other question would be more important to answer than that one? I'm just saying that I myself was very afraid of delving into that question too hard for a long time. I wouldn't have admitted that at the time. My response would have been something like "Well, I've got too many other things to think about. I'm a good person. I try to do the right thing. If there's a God, then I don't know Him, and I don't know how He expects me to know Him if He isn't willing to show Himself to me. So there." Or something like that. But in reality...the thought of God being real at that time in my life really scared me. And so I just avoided thinking about it altogether. I really enjoyed my ignorance, you know? I liked it; it made me feel successful and intelligent and strong and confident. Yea, my ignorance did. Perverse isn't it? It's much more comfortable to be the master of your own domain I guess?

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori~
It's not like there's a finite amount of space available to work with here, but since you did ask nicely, I'm only too happy to oblige. :D
What would I have to lose? Nothing. What would I have to gain? Answers. But know myself, I wouldn't like the answers given me, so god and I would have a shaky relationship at best.

Faith is no more than belief without material evidence. If you have faith you can't go around saying god created the world or all this other bullshit your telling us, because you have no evidence to suggest that it is true. Science does have evidence to suggest the earth was formed from debris left over from the creation of the sun, and gravity pulled it together over time.

I am starting to think that you people who believe in a religion are delusional! Wake up and think about what your saying. How can what you say be true without evidence?

If I told you if we dream of pigs flying... somewhere on another planet a pig will take off flying! I have no evidence for this at all, but I can keep persisting in my efforts to say its true. Nobody else can prove me wrong until they go to the other planets to investigate!

Lori and others, do you see how stupid you sound like to me! it is hilarious!

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Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Lori ~
I edited my post in question, Better fer ya?

Chaos~
Why do you get so worked up over this. It's FAITH, a BELIEF! You are not going to change the minds of the devout, so why get yourself worked up over something you can't possibly change?
Do you have any beliefs?, other than everyone but yourself is stupid? There's nothing that keeps you going? Nothing to look forward to at the end of the day?

Heathen,

Ok then, you pray to a God that you don't necessarily believe exists? And you thank Him. What do you thank Him for and why?

And it seems that you inherently know that you don't really want to know what God has to tell you about yourself. Hmmm....what does that mean to you exactly? A God that you don't believe exists has something to say to you, which you know in your heart, cause you can hear Him, and you agree with Him, but you just don't want to hear it? Is that close? Yea, uh, that's Him for sure. So there dude, there's your flippin' evidence. You know what you're ignoring? That He loves you like a child. And like He's the best parent in the whole world. Unconditional love and all that. I know it's hard to hear the stuff that you don't want to hear...but it's the meaning of life. You know how you feel like you could be happier sometimes, and like maybe you cause yourself to suffer, but you're not sure how? He tells you how. He tells you what is wrong with your perspective...lends you His perspective...as much as you can handle anyway. Hey man, don't feel bad...we're all retarded compared to Him!

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

this is what REALLY gets my panties in a bunch...this crapola about questioning

Prove it!


*yanking panties out of my ass*


Prove it!


And it seems that you inherently know that you don't really want to know what God has to tell you about yourself.

Prove it!



[This message has been edited by aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa (edited July 27, 2000).]

Chaos,

Did you know there is plenty of evidence to refute the idea of evolution. Don't expect me to get into that here though it's such a big debate. I think it is absolutely stupid for someone to believe in evolution, just as you believe it stupid for me to believe in the creation account of Genesis to a point. Each to his own though. I guess we'll all find out when we die, including you.

aaaaaaaaaaaaa,

You crack me up you sly dog you! :) :) :) :)

Francis ....

There's a massive, 10-page thread on Evolution v. Creation here that has persisted for over a year.
http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000006.html

Did you say, "a big debate"? ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Well there ya go aye!

Guess everything worth being debated has already been done here. Oh well, I might stick around for the ride anyway.

Cheers y'all. Howz that for American.