Today my neighbor came to visit. I've been taking care of their lawn while they have their house worked on (they're living somewhere else temporarily). He also just had surgery done to fix a bulging disk in his back. He came over to thank me for my prayers (several times). He and his wife are super nice folks. I just smiled and said, "well, it's good you're feeling better" or something.

What really went through my mind was "I'm an atheist, I don't pray. What makes you assume I'm religious...?"

So, what occurred to me was that I've had many people tell me they were christians or they'd mention Jesus or some such. But I'v never told an aquaintance (neighbor, etc.) "I'm an atheist. Yeah, I don't buy into that religious stuff..."

My feeling is that that would alienate them. Whereas I accept statements from all sorts of theists all the time. Am I wrong? Why do I sense that atheism is looked upon like a disease by theists?

So, how have other atheists here dealt with theist acquaintances who talk about their religion? What about theists here who have encountered atheists. What was it like?

Most theists that I know don't care if I'm an athiest or not. I don't argue with them, usually, because it's pointless to try to convince brainwashed people.

He came over to thank me for my prayers (several times). He and his wife are super nice folks. I just smiled and said, "well, it's good you're feeling better" or something.

What really went through my mind was "I'm an atheist, I don't pray. What makes you assume I'm religious...?"I've tried a number of different responses to this and similar situations, sometimes just to see what kind of reaction I get. The funniest was when I replied to "Jesus loves you?" with "Who?" "Jesus." "Sorry, I don't know any Jesus, you must have mistaken me for a Christian." They just kind of stammered for a while and left.

But you're right that replies such as, "I don't pray" or "I'm an atheist" is off-putting for theists more often than not. Which is rather ironic considering that they're the one making the faux pas.

I'll typically respond much as you did... although (presuming their Christian) it might have been funny to throw your hands up and shout "Allah-hu akbar!" In situations where people are looking for you to say some silly thing such as "my prayers are with you" I'll do much as dalahar suggests and offer my thoughts, or best wishes.

But no, dalahar, wishing someone well is not the same as praying. And it gets quite annoying to be put in a position so often where being honest is taken as an affront. I even got into a rather large argument once because I sat quietly but didn't bow my head, close my eyes, and thank your invisible buddy for my overcooked chicken dinner. You people can really be a bunch of fascist fuckers sometimes.

~Raithere

I wouldn't have argued with you. But the rest of 'em were probably praying for a big steak and if you would have helped ya'll might have got it. :DIt didn't work when I was a kid and I know were were all praying for hotdogs and ice cream instead of turkey and brussle sprouts. ;)

~Raithere

It is worse when you're the atheist and those around you are theists... some to the point of being fundamentalists... and they keep telling you to pray. Last week I had to spend some time in hospital due to some complications with the pregnancy... My dear mother and father, both Catholics, who know that I am pretty much an atheist came to see me in the hospital the day after I was admitted. As I lay there, terrified about what was going to happen and whether the baby was alright and whether I'd have to deliver a month early, my mother started to tell me that I should pray to Saint Anne as she would listen to me and help me in this time of need in my pregnancy. Poor dear was so worried that it was the only way she could cope with what was going on.. to pray.. My father looked at her and tried to pull her back by changing the subject, knowing that it would cause me more stress because I in turn did not want to hurt her feelings by telling her that I don't believe and therefore do not pray... When she realised what she had said, she looked at me and said to me that she could not understand how even 'now' that I could simply not believe. I will admit, it broke my heart at that point that I simply could not believe. I actually started crying because somehow deep down, I felt bad for not believing even when my child could be in danger. I actually tried to find some form of belief in me at that point as she looked at me and I simply could not find it. The look of pain on her face still bothers me even now. :( I don't know what it is about a mother's guilt inducing ability.. but she made me feel so guilty at that point... as though even through all my own pain and worries that I had to face the fact that I was still a disappointment to her because I simply did not believe as she does. It is a horrible feeling...

Some of my other relatives on the other hand came to see me and told me quite openly to my face that the reason all 'this' was happening to me was because I did not believe in God and that I was being punished. My dear other half told them to leave. He, very much an atheist, was appalled that people could actually say such things, especially members of my own family..

I never know how to reply to statements of 'you must pray to God', etc... especially when I am sick and it appears to be the only thing some people can say... as though praying will make everything hunky dory again. At times in the past, when I'd been quite ill with severe complications earlier on in my pregnancy, I actually felt like screaming in rage each time someone made that statement. But I'd keep quiet because to say simply 'no' to people who tell you to pray to God makes me feel like an ogre for some reason. As though I am some bad person because I just don't believe and I'd be offending them if I said 'no' or 'no thank you'. When in reality, most of these people know that I am an atheist and would know that it was in a way offensive to me to tell me to pray to something I don't believe exists..

I never know how to reply to statements of 'you must pray to God', etc... especially when I am sick and it appears to be the only thing some people can say... as though praying will make everything hunky dory again.I find it helps to think of them as children, hopelessly naive but with good intentions.

As far as those that told you that you were being punished I would have ushered them out of the room as well, with my boot in their ass to help them on their way.

Did I say "fascist fuckers" before? Somehow I forgot self-righteous, vicious, and cruel as well. I can see where the claims to a superior morality come from. It is just so obvious as they all so consistently display the love, compassion, and understanding of a nest of rabid vipers.

And these assholes wonder where the atheistic resentment of religion comes from. :rolleyes:

For my part, I hope you are doing better Bells and wish you and your child the best of health.

~Raithere

It must be hard being an atheist in a country like the US being surrounded by fundies... you have my sympathy :(

It must be hard being an atheist in a country like the US being surrounded by fundies... you have my sympathy :(I shouldn't paint too bleak a picture.

Most Christians, even in the US, are very nice and typically respectful of other people's opinions, particularly those in the larger metropolitan areas where they've had some exposure to other beliefs and cultures. Even as a Christian I had never heard the creationist fantasy asserted as real or any suggestion that it should be taught in public schools until I was 16 or 17. There is, however, a small and growingly vocal minority that seems to be driving the public perception of Christians. And it is this group that is polarizing society.

There are fanatics in every society; the trouble comes when you give them center stage instead of marginalizing them as they should be.

~Raithere

Bells ........

I simply did not believe as she does. It is a horrible feeling...


Just explain to her that everyone is different and see's things differently through their own eyes and interperts things in many ways. Just because you think differently than your daughter doesn't mean you're wrong only that you are different than her which makes you ewach unique in the world. This should also show her that even though you both think differently that you both stioll love each other for your own beliefs no matter how different they happen to be. Nothing wrong with going down your own pathway holding hands looking at the world through each others eyes and sharing your views with each other. Just think what a place this would be if everyone thought the same way.

atheist...*sneeze*

anyone else..."God bless you"

atheist..."What's that supposed to mean?! Are you trying to convert me?! Don't shove that shit down my throat! It's a conspiracy and everyone is out to get me! I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!!!"

anyone else..."Whoa. My bad."

So, how have other atheists here dealt with theist acquaintances who talk about their religion? What about theists here who have encountered atheists. What was it like?
*************
M*W: It's a difficult situation, and I haven't been as honest as I would have liked on some occasions. It depends on who the person is, their level of understanding, and how I feel about risking that friendship. I admit I may have selfish motives for not coming clean. I have a dear friend, a very bright woman who is an attorney. She is Vietnamese and suffered a lot in her country before coming to the USA. She's accomplished a great deal since coming here. She's also a fundie. I find myself when I'm with her saying such things as, "praise, Jesus," "through Jesus' precious blood," etc.. You get the picture. I'm making myself puke right now. Why am I doing this? I suppose for selfish reasons. If I keep my friend happy, I get free legal favors. If she ever knew I was an atheist, she wouldn't have anything to do with me. I really deserve the Academy Award for my convincing performance.

OTOH, strangers come up to me sometimes and start a conversation that leads to "prayers." Why they single me out for this, I'll never know. I'm more comfortable telling them right away that I'm an atheist. They usually look shockingly at me and walk off. That was my motive. For the most part, people don't understand atheism, and they look at us like we're lepers. Generally, I believe the average person only sees an atheist as someone without god in their lives. They don't understand that we believe in cold, hard facts and not the supernatural. To them, it's all about god, and they cannot see beyond their nose.

Still, I don't like faking it. As as rule, I don't do it, but with my attorney friend, I do, and I disgust myself by doing it. Even my closest family and friends know I'm atheist. Some like it, some don't. I just don't bring it up.

He came over to thank me for my prayers (several times).
Maybe that's just a saying.
Maybe he didn't mean "prayers".
Maybe a prayer is a kind of a "hope".

Like when people might say: have you found Jesus yet? It means, have you found yourself yet? Have you become happy? Or something...

In my country, it's normal to be non-religious. Few people are religious, I think.. although I guess my country is supposed to be a Christian country since it has a horisontal cross on the flag.

anyone else..."God bless you"

atheist..."What's that supposed to mean?! Are you trying to convert me?! Don't shove that shit down my throat! It's a conspiracy and everyone is out to get me! I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!!!"Tell us honestly Lori, have you ever experienced this reaction in real life?

~Raithere

Tell us honestly Lori, have you ever experienced this reaction in real life?

~Raithere

All the time. All I have to do it say the word God or Jesus and you can immediately see the hairs sticking up on the back of every atheists neck...like fingernails on a chalkboard. As long as I'm not swearing that is, because they don't mind that at all. Shit, most times I don't have to even say anything remotely relating to God or Jesus or religion, just knowing that I'm a Christian automatically makes them defensive and hateful...no matter what we may be talking about.

This reaction is what this thread is all about...originally anyway. I was trying to make a point to SL...to lighten up.

Listen, I'm not saying that there aren't "christians" who try to shove the shit down people's throats in their holier than thou hypocrisy. But I wonder about those people, because JESUS NEVER EVER DID THAT...EVER. Makes me think that they don't know Him. People often use religion as some political platform or agenda. Not necessarily someone running for office, but some type of power play for whatever reason.

All the time. All I have to do it say the word God or Jesus and you can immediately see the hairs sticking up on the back of every atheists neck...like fingernails on a chalkboard.That's just our Super-Atheist Sense, it's like Spidey Sense except that instead of warning us of impending danger it makes us aware of any fundies or born agains in the immediate vicinity. That way we can high-tail it out of there before their eyes glaze over and they start babbling in tongues or some shit. ;)

Listen, I'm not saying that there aren't "christians" who try to shove the shit down people's throats in their holier than thou hypocrisy. But I wonder about those people, because JESUS NEVER EVER DID THAT...EVERYou're joking right? Did you forget that whole scene in the temple? Seems to me he had a very definite opinion there and made sure everyone knew it.

~Raithere

That's just our Super-Atheist Sense, it's like Spidey Sense except that instead of warning us of impending danger it makes us aware of any fundies or born agains in the immediate vicinity. That way we can high-tail it out of there before their eyes glaze over and they start babbling in tongues or some shit. ;)

You're joking right? Did you forget that whole scene in the temple? Seems to me he had a very definite opinion there and made sure everyone knew it.

~Raithere


He was IN THE TEMPLE. Do you know what the temple was supposed to be for? It wasn't like He was preaching on a street corner to the masses, or chasing down some atheist, or in some bar or brothel trying to tell everyone they're going to hell. If Jesus came here today, He would do the very same thing in most organized religious establishments that He did back then in the temple. And those within organized religion today, wouldn't want to hear what He had to say any more than the pharisees did back then. And most of the drones involved would be stupid and evil enough to hang Him right back up there on that cross.

Bells,
If you chased after every possible religious "cure", you would spend all your energy (not to mention money), and would have nothing left to give to staying strong for your child. I'm sure you are doing everything you could do which you believe could possibly help your child, and you know lying isn't going to help.
You could always say that if there is a God, which you do not believe, but if there is one, a little help would be nice right about now, and you wouldn't have to interpret the results as anything, and just leave any thought about god at the hospital once you are home.
This would deal with the social problem, i.e., the ignorant people who would try to scare you into believing in God, and there is no damage done to your ideology.
Or don't do that, I wish you all the best possible medical cures, along with any real (or perhaps fantasy?) metaphysical cures, anyway.

P.S. MEDICINE WOMAN - It is no wonder you have resentment for xians and xianity, you might even be justifiying lying to a friend by addressing her religious beliefs (in your mind), as childishly unimportant, the way raithere would.

P.S. MEDICINE WOMAN - It is no wonder you have resentment for xians and xianity, you might even be justifiying lying to a friend by addressing her religious beliefs (in your mind), as childishly unimportant, the way raithere would.I didn't say unimportant, I said naive. I understand how much people emotionally rely upon the notion that praying will help affect the outcome of a situation. But the fact remains that it doesn't. The intent is well-meaning, if ineffective and naive, which was my point.

~Raithere

I was pointing out that ideas a person would lie about, are either unimportant (to the person lying), or important, and being confusedly addressed/engaged.
Admitting that an idea is important to another doesn't mean you automatically give it its proper place of respect/understanding, even if your own views are radically different.

P.S. MEDICINE WOMAN - It is no wonder you have resentment for xians and xianity, you might even be justifiying lying to a friend by addressing her religious beliefs (in your mind), as childishly unimportant, the way raithere would.
*************
M*W: Yes, this is a quandry for me. I love my friend and respect her, but I could never tell her the truth. I've given thought to which one of us needs the other one more, and I can honestly say that she needs me more than I "need" her legal services. She needs me to confide in about her relationships and her family problems. Come to think of it, she's downright needy. I've gone over to her mansion (yes, mansion) to keep her company when her husband left her, certainly not wanting anything in return but to comfort her. I'm beginning to see why I can't tell her the truth. She would experience another loss as would I. I know the members of this forum think I'm a mean bitch, and that's because of my disgust for christianity. Others who know me are overwhelmed by my compassion. I just don't have it for many christians.

Hi all. This is excellent. I live in rural Pennsylvania and there are normal christians and fundies all over the place. Every other barn has a sign that says "Repent and be saved" or something like that. And there are bill boards scattered all over with stuff like "Where will you spend ETERNITY? Heaven, or Hell?" and "Jesus Died for YOU! (bloody 10 foot high jesus hanging on a cross)". And lots of business around here are christian businesses. So I get many chances to practice patience and tolerance (Thanks for your purchase, God blesss...).


Raithere:

I find it helps to think of them as children, hopelessly naive but with good intentions.

I actually feel that way when confronted by christians. The really do seem like naive children to me.

Overall though, what I really feel, is that if I became as open with my atheism as the christians around here are with their religion, I would be "shunned" as the Amish say. Now given that this is a bit of a "nest" of fundies, I shouldn't be too suprised by that, right? But I've gotten that from "regular" christians also.

Lori, if I wasn't such a meanie, could you be my unbiased friend? Could I be yours? I don't know. Here's another thought. Given the way most atheists and serious christians really feel, can they be honest friends? As atheists, we all share one thing in common. We think that belief in the supernatural is a form of mental weakness. And christians, I think, see our lack of belief as a sing of spiritual weakness. I've never had a close friend who was a serious christian.

That's another thing. There are all levels of christians. From the casual bloke who does the church thing on sundays and calls himself a christian, to the foaming fundie who does nothing else. By serious christian, I mean the one who is private about it but tries their damnedest(?) to live what they perceive as a christian life. They truly believe and want to do the right thing. (Lori?)

Are there levels of atheist also? I think so. I alternate between two modes, depending on my mood. In one, I think that all christians must be silly, rather unintelligent, people. In the other, I realize that I know christain engineers, and other professionals who are clearly not silly or unintelligent. Hmm... Sometimes I think I'm on the cusp of understanding something fundamental about human nature.

MW,

I sympathize with your position. And I don't believe for a second that you "lie" to your friend in a calculated manner to gain her legal services. I bet you have a lot more integrity than that.

could you be my unbiased friend?

please don't use the word "bias" because that combination of letters sounds very annoying to me.

Hmm... Sometimes I think I'm on the cusp of understanding something fundamental about human nature.

it's probably a sign that you're getting sick.

sick, people who have a cross around their neck on which a man died.

atheists are sick.

save your preys.

Yorda,

I would love for you to tell me why that combination of letters annoys you.

Yorda,

I would love for you to tell me why that combination of letters annoys you.

because it reminds me of another annoying word in another language, anyway, if you're a smart guy, don't talk to me.

super reading through this thread, amused me, as I am quite forthcoming with my beliefs,
was what happened today I when round to see a family about some business, they seemed a normal group of people, they did have a crucifix on the wall, after conducting the business, walking out the garden door I saw a beautiful golden coloured spider, to cries of kill it kill it I scooped it up in my hands and placed it in the rocks, I was then asked was I a buddhist, and replied no I'm an atheist, the looks of horror on the faces of these people, they then said I'm sorry we could not possibly have you do any work for us, you understand dont you, I said no, but fair enough goodbye.

MW,

I sympathize with your position. And I don't believe for a second that you "lie" to your friend in a calculated manner to gain her legal services. I bet you have a lot more integrity than that.
*************
M*W: Thanks, superL.

It's just such an uncomfortable feeling though. They still continue to do it. I literally squirm sometimes as I bite my lips together to not tell them to back off because it not only makes me uncomfortable, but sometimes embarrassed as well... not embarrassed for me, but I actually feel embarrassed for them because they believe as they do. I get calls just about every day from family and friends who are checking in to see how things are going and to see if I have given birth yet (as though I'd be home the same day anyway..lol).. and each time on the phone or when the come to visit, they tell me how I should pray. Some have even come with their prayers in hand and attempt to pray on me :(. It's not only embarrassing at this point, but annoying as hell as well. They know I am an atheist, yet they keep doing it, as though they're compelled and can't help themselves.

I have had medallions of religious icons given to me and told to wear it on my stomach.. :eek:.. Even if I were religious, how in the hell can I wear a religious medallion on my stomach, especially in light that I'm 8 months pregnant.. Again, on such occasions, even though I merely want to throw said medallions over the side of my balcony, I merely smile politely so as not to hurt their feelings and attempt to change the subject. I now have about a dozen of these little things in an envelope in the back of a drawer somewhere.

Especially after the experience with my mother last week, I actually feel guilty if I just say no or tell them to stop. So all I can come out with is "hmmmm", smile politely and then try to change the subject. I mean if they want to pray for me, then fine, pray, but the pressure that is placed on my head to pray... in all honesty, it makes me want to scream because they know that I don't believe, but the keep doing it.. lol.. I actually end up feeling like a small, disobedient child for not listening to them.

But to me, what they believe is akin to a child believing in the tooth-fairy or Santa. Only with a child I wouldn't want to break the illusion because well they're children and should be allowed some fantasies (plus I think back to when I was 5 and remember my Grandmother looking at me in astonishment and telling me that Santa did not exist when I mentioned that Santa was going to give me this toy.. heh.. I still remember feeling frankly shocked and at a loss and I still remember my parents being upset at her because they felt she stole my childhood somehow.. lol..)..

But when an adult still believes in the fantasies of God, etc, well I find it disturbing. And why share them? Why force it down people's throats? I don't tell them to not believe, why do they persist in telling me to believe and then treating me like a pariah when it becomes obvious to them that I just don't believe...

Why is it that theists can't understand that atheists simply do not believe... that even when sick or things aren't going well... that we still don't believe.. It honestly feels like they're taking advantage of the situation and trying to convert. It's as though they're ghouls! My mother in particular hasn't been too bad, with the exception of the hospital visit when it got really bad.. but some of the others in my family.. Ghouls.. :(

Aaarrrgghhhhhhh... It is so frustrating...

I'm not particularly one to 'hide' who I am. If someone gives me the god shit, I give them the atheist response.

atheist...*sneeze*

anyone else..."God bless you"

atheist..."What's that supposed to mean?! Are you trying to convert me?! Don't shove that shit down my throat! It's a conspiracy and everyone is out to get me! I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!!!"

anyone else..."Whoa. My bad."

That's generally now stated as just "bless you", and when someone does say it I generally ask whether all those "blesses" given ever saved anyone from the plague, let alone being of any value now.

But people in general are still at a very superstitious level.. Thinking that 'touching wood' has a use, that saying hello to magpies is somehow beneficial, or that crossing your fingers will raise your chances of winning the lottery. It's all bollocks and everyone knows it, but it does not stop people from clinging to it much like they cling to space beings and thoughts of a second life.

Yorda,

because it reminds me of another annoying word in another language, anyway, if you're a smart guy, don't talk to me.

Then don't respond to my posts. In fact, why don't you get the hell out of my thread?

audible,

to cries of kill it kill it I scooped it up in my hands and placed it in the rocks
I've noticed in many christians a very strong indifference/acceptance to killing other creatures. Do you think it's because the bible tells them to go out and subdue nature, and that they are seperate and above the rest of nature?

Bells,

I've noticed that the atheists I meet seem to be very caring, generally nice people. We don't want to offend or hurt others feelings. Maybe that's because we actually take an active stance on our ethics and have thought about what it means to take full responsibility for our behavior. We don't point to a book and say "But the book says...". Who gives a crap what the book says. I don't need a reference manual to know how to be kind and decent to other humans.

It's funny. My therapist (first one to crack a joke gets a shot of thorazine in the ass) is a theist. We talk about this sometimes and when I mention christians he rolls his eyes and will usually say something about avoiding them at all costs... Especially the ones who say they are good christians as if that's supposed to carry some moral advantage. We laugh.

Why is it that theists can't understand that atheists simply do not believe... that even when sick or things aren't going well... that we still don't believe.Because it disrupts their fantasy. God to them is so fundamental a concept, so basic and essential to their world-view that they cannot really even conceive of not believing.

This is constantly evinced in the way that they talk to us. How many times have you heard it asserted that we are atheists simply because we want to be free of moral constraints or because we hate god? How difficult, neigh impossible, is it to convince them that our disbelief is born of thoughtful introspection and deliberate reason? That disbelief is disbelief and not denial. Or that one can be atheist, have a sound ethical philosophy, and find one's purpose in life?

Theists hate atheism so much because we break their focus, their willing suspension of disbelief. The most common response that I hear to, "I'm an atheist." is a very confused "Why?"

~Raithere

The most common response that I hear to, "I'm an atheist." is a very confused "Why?"

Ha! Yes. I've gotten that a lot.

Wow, Excellent thread!
I'll try to find time to add some proper thoughts, later... but for now, I'll just point out some recommended reading (for super and Bells in particular) - the stuff in these references is interesting, but should be read (as all things should) with a reasonably critical eye.

Richard Dawkins - Religion be Damned (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.10/view.html?pg=2) (or Let There Be Brights).
Dawkins laments the way that atheists are shunned in an increasingly Christian America, and promotes a meme to spark a change.
...bright is intended to come to the aid of another beleaguered community in the US: those who, in the most religiose country in the Western world, have no religion, who are variously labeled atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, philosophical naturalists, secularists, or humanists.

A Gallup poll in 1999 asked American voters the following question: "If your party nominated a generally well-qualified person for president who happened to be an X would you vote for that person?" X took on the following values: Catholic, Jew, Baptist, Mormon, black, homosexual, woman, atheist. Six out of the eight categories secured better than 90 percent approval. But only 59 percent would vote for a homosexual, and just 49 percent would vote for an atheist...
See also the-brights.net (http://www.the-brights.net/)

James Fowler - Stages Of Faith (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060628669/102-8108937-9918516?v=glance).
Dr Fowler is a Doctor of Theology who has conducted comprehensive and revealing research into various common forms of adult faith. While his perspective is decidedly western with a distinct Christian flavour, he does offer some striking insights into the way in which people believe.
He has constructed a 6-stage model of fiath development. The first two are essentialy part of the normal development of children, and stages 3 to 6 are adult stages.
Interview with Dr Fowler (http://www.lifespirals.com/TheMindSpiral/Fowler/fowler.html).

My dear significant other often tells me that I should tell them to 'sod off'. He tells me I am too polite sometimes and he's right. But then the thought enters my mind that they are my family and do care about me so it's best to just keep quiet and be polite about it.

That they consider not believing impossible is something I have come to accept from them. I have had some family members call me a heathen and a devil and some have even gone so far as to come pounding on my door and calling me at all hours yelling obscenities about how I have been 'tempted by the devil' or am 'host to the great demon' and my personal favourite that I 'have become a vessel for satan'. I no longer have anything to do with these people and sometimes it saddens me still because they weren't like this before. Or maybe they turned their wrath on me when they realised that I really was an atheist.

Who knows..

They do think I am in denial. The gasps of shock and horror that came forth when they started planning the baptism of my child, and I told them that I was not christening my child... it was in fact funny to see the looks on their faces. They were appalled. They still are. My mother in particular is very hurt by this, but I cannot foister something I do not believe in on my own child. The members of my family I keep in contact with now still keep talking about the christening of my yet to be born child even though they know that I am an atheist and will not be baptising the kid. They can't understand how or why I could not. It's their issue to deal with I guess... I am at peace with myself and that's all that matters.

It's just annoying sometimes however because I don't force my atheistic tendencies on them, yet they force their theist beliefs on me. It is a lack of respect for me and it is as though they can't help themselves. So in the meantime I keep on smiling politely and saying 'hmmmmmm' before changing the subject.. ;) .. Until the day I tell them to 'sod off' I suppose.. lol.. ;)

I hear you, Bells.
I also came to the sad conclusion in adulthood that I could no longer accept the Catholicism of my youth, and still feel my mother's pain and confusion about my choice. :(
Pete

PS - don't miss the last post on the previous page!

Bells:

It's just annoying sometimes however because I don't force my atheistic tendencies on them, yet they force their theist beliefs on me. It is a lack of respect for me and it is as though they can't help themselves...

Is this not just one of a number of reasons that many of us think theists and christians in particular are dangerous? I've run up against exactly the same thing. Individual people can be nice as pie in secular matters, but once religion comes into it, watch out. I don't think they can help it. Shit, there are thousands (tens of thousands?) of christian missionaries that demonstrate the intent of christianity. Conversion. As a conscientious christian, how could you not care about and want to save the soul of a lost atheist? It's sincere. Which makes it even more dangerous imo.

Pete,


from Dawkins article:

despite the hostility of those who misunderstand the humble noun as an arrogant adjective

I think this could be a serious problem. Most people, especially the people we're trying to impress (theists) will take it that way. I'd bet on it. 'gay' dosen't imply that straight people are somehow worse off. 'Bright' on the other hand does imply that "we are bright, therefore you are... umm... dull?".

Don't know.

I hear you, Bells.
I also came to the sad conclusion in adulthood that I could no longer accept the Catholicism of my youth, and still feel my mother's pain and confusion about my choice. :(
Pete

PS - don't miss the last post on the previous page!
I came to that conclusion in my early teens and even now as an adult, I still see the disappointment on my mother's face. It is almost as if she is saying 'how could you'... as though I have committed a henious act. But deep down, I know she knows I am not that bad a person and she knows I am not a hypocrite. So in that, she has at least one reason to be proud lol.

And Dawkins is correct. Non-believers of any way, shape or form are seen as the pariahs of society. As some are asked 'why?' when they tell others they are atheists, I find it quite interesting when I am asked 'what do you mean?' when I tell people I am an atheist. It is as though I have instantly become sub-human.

The poll mentioned is telling. I have yet to see a politician in the West not proclaim a firm and strong belief in God. Even though their actions speak against what their religion preaches, they only have to say the word 'God' a few times and the majority fall over like dead daisies.

Bear in mind that there are 29 million Americans who describe themselves as nonreligious, secular, atheist, or agnostic, outnumbering Jews tenfold and all other religions except Christianity by an even larger margin.
From your link of Dawkin's article (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.10/view.html?pg=2)

The sad part is that many of the people who view themselves as being atheists may find it difficult to vote for another atheist and the figure of only 29% stating they would vote for an atheist tends to possibly show this. It is as though it is something one does not do.


Individual people can be nice as pie in secular matters, but once religion comes into it, watch out. I don't think they can help it. Shit, there are thousands (tens of thousands?) of christian missionaries that demonstrate the intent of christianity. Conversion. As a conscientious christian, how could you not care about and want to save the soul of a lost atheist? It's sincere. Which makes it even more dangerous imo.
It is more dangerous. And there are some who would ruin whatever relationship they may have had previously to pursue this need to 'spread the word'. Any resistance or difference of opinion to these people results in a glazed look on their part and they start to go on and on about their particular belief and start saying how good it is, etc. They become irrational and almost panic when they realise that they haven't grabbed your attention. Some become abusive and others just keep droning on and on.

I sometimes think they are attempting to further convert themselves as much as attempting to convert others. I imagine a points system counting down in their brain.. as though each soul converted gets them one step closer to their God.

MW,

I sympathize with your position. And I don't believe for a second that you "lie" to your friend in a calculated manner to gain her legal services. I bet you have a lot more integrity than that.

Integrity...ha! A lie is a lie is a lie. And if you think she was trying to spare her "friend's" feelings, then that would be in direct opposition to what she's admittedly doing here. As much as she hates theists, and is willing to take a stand against them...you would think she would get some new "friends". But then again, I suppose that doesn't come easy for MW.

She's a liar because she's selfish, and because she's a big fat pussy. She doesn't give a shit about her "friend"...SHE is the one who doesn't want to be made uncomfortable.

And given that, she's just as much a part of the problem now as she was when she was a full-on indoctrinated drone. Pathetic.

Water,

Tell your family that I will pray for you and your child, and to get off your back about it. I sincerely hope that you and your baby are well. And again, I'm sorry that you have to go through this with your family. You should really point out to them that being brow-beaten with Jesus is going to do nothing but upset you and stress you out.

Dear God,

Why are people so moronic? Please help them.

Thanks,

Lori

Lori, if I wasn't such a meanie, could you be my unbiased friend? Could I be yours? I don't know. Here's another thought. Given the way most atheists and serious christians really feel, can they be honest friends? As atheists, we all share one thing in common. We think that belief in the supernatural is a form of mental weakness. And christians, I think, see our lack of belief as a sing of spiritual weakness. I've never had a close friend who was a serious christian.

That's another thing. There are all levels of christians. From the casual bloke who does the church thing on sundays and calls himself a christian, to the foaming fundie who does nothing else. By serious christian, I mean the one who is private about it but tries their damnedest(?) to live what they perceive as a christian life. They truly believe and want to do the right thing. (Lori?)


I don't go to church and I'm serious as a heart attack about this. Trust me, I would have never, ever gotten through the past 6 years if I wasn't dead f'ing serious about this. You don't put up with people calling you crazy and your parents taking you in for an mri, and go around testifying to people about a miracle if you're not serious. This is my life, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Seriously, I would not have it...I wouldn't want to live without God in my life. Not just in my life, but in control of me and my life. It's the only way for me.

And you know, you're not a meanie. You really hurt my feelings though when you made some "mental" comment. I can take it from the rest of the bullies out here, but for some reason, when you alienated me, it made me cry. And honestly, I felt really stupid for doing it, and I didn't really understand why you had that affect on me. I guess it's just because I really do like you. You seem very nice, and witty, and honest. You don't seem like you have some agenda or are on some campaign out here. You're down to earth, and normally very respectful. Much more so than I. I think that we could be great friends. None of my friends are born again. It doesn't bother me that they're not, and it doesn't bother them that I am. We love each other anyway, just the same, and why not? Anything else is...is....discriminatory, yea, like a racist, or a sexist, or a moron, like...nevermind. :)

And ya know, we don't talk about anything out here except religion. So.......*shrug* That's definitely a factor. But I met a girl out here about 6 years ago that I am still very good friends with today. We've come to know each other extremely well over the years, and we started out here vehemently arguing about religion. And I swear to you, that to this day, we still don't agree about any of that AT ALL. We are completely opposed, and love each other just the same. The differences in our beliefs does cause misunderstandings between us at times...there's been some conflict because of it. She's had a really bad experience with organized religion...indoctrinated very young...spoon fed holier than thou, doom and gloom, guilt-laden, judgement. "Jesus won't love you unless you eat, breathe, and shit like we want you to." So, for this reason, and others, she's understandably jaded and bitter against anything Christian. And me, well I'm just a bitch. But we've always worked it out, and I know that we always will. :)

Water,

Tell your family that I will pray for you and your child

You mean Bells.

You don't put up with people calling you crazy and your parents taking you in for an mri

MRI scan shows promise in treating bipolar disorder

http://www.researchmatters.harvard.edu/story.php?article_id=746

Lori,

Actually, after posting my question

...could you be my unbiased friend? Could I be yours?

I slipped into my "all theists are clearly not silly doofuses (doofusae?)" mode. And I have disagreements with my friends about all sorts of things, and they're still friends.

To be honest, when I'm thinking calmly about it, I know for certain that the ability to maintain two (or more) rule sets for reality is inherent in all of us. I've called this "dichotomous thinking" in some other thread. So you can still be an intelligent christian/theist. As I've said before, I know plenty of them. And while I believe it's a case of the brain playing tricks on theists, They are convinced it represents an actual reality. We disagree. So what?

So my position is still clear. Everyone should be able to believe and practice whatever they want (barring harm to another, but some people like that... ;) ) as long as public institutions are run based on impartial, rational, scientific principles.

You mean Bells.

Yea, I mean Bells. My bad. Thanks for the correction.