Not Perfect, Just Forgiven
Terry Nichols speaks

Where might one begin?

I don't know quite what to quote. Let's try this. But the statement is pretty much full of this kind of ... uh ... excrement. Try the link at the bottom.

Yes, only with and through faith in Jesus Christ alone can we be saved. And the only place where real truth, absolute truth can be found is in God's word, the Holy Bible.

I also wish to say that my views were never the same as Timothy McVeigh's. They may have had - we may have had some similar - similarities, but they were not the same. And today, my views and beliefs are far different, as the result of finding the real truth of life in this world, which only the inerrant (sic) word of scripture reveals.

When God, when the God of scripture is not the center of one's life, one's mind, emotions and actions can easily be manipulated, which in turn can result in harm and destruction to self and others.

Thus I pray for everyone to acknowledge God, make his, make his truths and ways the center of your life, accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, and especially that men will become the spiritual leaders of the family, the fathers of integrity, as God intended man to become.

One last thing, many people have come, have come up with various excuses and reasons to justify the jurors' deadlock in the sentencing phase of this trial, which the state was seeking the death penalty against me.

And I am sure many will disagree with me, but the truth is, the reason death was not given is for the simple and abundantly clear fact that God is in control. His hand has been guiding this trial from day one. There is no other explanation.

(Terry Nichols (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Nichols%20Sentence%20Text))

I'm appalled. But hey, that's not my problem, right? All's forgiven, or else ... what might the Lord have to say?

Really, I'm curious. Because forgiveness and faith is all well and fine, but ... No.

Faith or works? John 3.16 or Matthew 25? The words of Jesus, or the letters of Paul? The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out, but where Terry goes someday is still in doubt.

Of course, he has the rest of his God-given life remaining to grovel, so who knows what he can pull off in that time?
____________________

• Associated Press. "Text of Terry Nichols' statement." Seattle Post-Intelligencer, August 9, 2004. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Nichols%20Sentence%20Text

he has two debts to pay. he got a discount on one and has yet to pay the other!

If the note is genuine and he has accepted Jesus as Messiah. Then yes, if He died today He would have eternity with God. Then again if the notes a cunning ploy and he never repents and accepts Jesus as Messiah then its the eternal lake of fire for him.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

Can i ask what Terry Nichols actually did?(i dont live stateside and rarely watch the news so i have no idea).

Nichols is convicted of 161 counts each of murder, arson, and conspiracy, for his contributions to the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995.

If he is forgiven, it won't be because he was able to "redeem himself". That's impossible for anyone. It's not for us to decide whether he goes to hell or not... he had his trial before humanity, and they didn't give him the death sentence. If the courts could be so merciful, why not God? Maybe he realized a life in prison is nothing compared to a life in hell. Maybe he's just trying to redeem himself. If that's true, he certainly won't be able to fool God.

Tiassa, no crime deserves Hell except for someone who does not want to be forgiven. Hence, Terry Nicholas might not go to Hell, but the extent of amends might have to be carried over to the purgatory.

Terry Nichols will go to heaven if he repents and idolizes Jesus. A little kid raised from a non Christian background will spend eternity in hell.

You Christians are completely fucked.

Joeman, how do you know either way? The difference between the two examples you give is the security they have while alive.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
A child might not say it, but still do God's will; Terry Nichols might say 'Lord, Lord', but God knows his heart. I daresay you don't know the heart of either the child or the criminal. Rather pay attention to your own heart and don't worry whether the righteous perish or the fools prosper.

Okinrus, I always wanted to ask someone this: isn't Christ himself purgatory enough?

Okinrus, I always wanted to ask someone this: isn't Christ himself purgatory enough?

I'm not too sure what purgatory is like, but it is possible that those in purgatory would face Christ.

When he goes to heaven will there be virgins waiting for him or is that a pleasure reserved only for Islamic terrorists?

Guess if you in heaven you can have anything you want!
Now where did I put that plastique?
Dee Cee

Careful there DeeCee...

The Patriot Act doesn't allow for such sayings against the beliefs of George Dubyah. :cool:

I'm not too sure what purgatory is like, but it is possible that those in purgatory would face Christ.
Alright, but wouldn't Christ face "purgatory" *for* them? Isn't that why He came to earth? Christ is purgatory (the purging of sins) - isn't that what God promised in Jeremiah (50:20): "In those days, at that time," declares the LORD , "search will be made for Israel's guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare."

I'm not trying to pick a fight! Just curious where the idea fits in...

When he goes to heaven will there be virgins waiting for him or is that a pleasure reserved only for Islamic terrorists?

Guess if you in heaven you can have anything you want!
Now where did I put that plastique?
Dee Cee


There are no virgins waiting for anyone in Heaven sorry. LOL

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

No virgins in heaven? Where do all the virgins go? And wherever it is, how do i get there????

Alright, but wouldn't Christ face "purgatory" *for* them? Isn't that why He came to earth? Christ is purgatory (the purging of sins) - isn't that what God promised in Jeremiah (50:20): "In those days, at that time," declares the LORD , "search will be made for Israel's guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare."

I'm not trying to pick a fight! Just curious where the idea fits in...

The idea marvelously fits into my theory that time isn't linear, and that it is just the traditional conceptualization of time that time is linear.

Lemming,
All the virgins go to the islamic heaven. That is why the martyrs get 72!

Alright, but wouldn't Christ face "purgatory" *for* them? Isn't that why He came to earth? Christ is purgatory (the purging of sins) - isn't that what God promised in Jeremiah (50:20): "In those days, at that time," declares the LORD , "search will be made for Israel's guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare."

I don't think forgiveness always entails lack of punishment. For example, Terry Nicholas is asking for the victims to forgive him, not release him from prison. In a very real way Terry Nicholas wants to be in prison.

We are all not Morally Responsible.

A simple look at a photograph of Terry Nichols shows a man that does not have a personal will. Some are born to be at the beck and call of men who DO have will power. This is Terry Nichols. Born to follow.

The real villian is Terry Nichol's brother who was actually the mastermind of the Bombing. Timothy McVie and his stupid idiot brother simply were his agents following his orders.

Anyway, what good does it do to punish a pure follower? In a Good World they would have followed good leaders. In an Evil World they follow Evil Leaders. In themselves they are neutral. Whether it is because they have no Mind -- an insufficient IQ, or because they have no Heart -- are emotional cripples; their entire lack of significance absolves them of Moral Responsibility.

We might as well round up every stupid redneck in America. Given the same conditions, they would have done the same thing.

Anyway, what good does it do to punish a pure follower? In a Good World they would have followed good leaders. In an Evil World they follow Evil Leaders. In themselves they are neutral. Whether it is because they have no Mind -- an insufficient IQ, or because they have no Heart -- are emotional cripples; their entire lack of significance absolves them of Moral Responsibility.

What are the *criteria* for
1. not having a sufficient IQ,
2. being an emotional cripple?

What if someone has a sufficient IQ, but is an emotional cripple; or what if someone doesn't have a sufficient IQ, but is not an emotional cripple? Are they, according to you, absolved of moral responsibility? Or are only those who both lack the sufficient IQ and are emotional cripples as well, absolved of moral responsibility?

What are the criteria for being significant?

What are the *criteria* for
1. not having a sufficient IQ,
2. being an emotional cripple?

What if someone has a sufficient IQ, but is an emotional cripple; or what if someone doesn't have a sufficient IQ, but is not an emotional cripple? Are they, according to you, absolved of moral responsibility? Or are only those who both lack the sufficient IQ and are emotional cripples as well, absolved of moral responsibility?

What are the criteria for being significant?

It is a matter of discernment. MOST people are not morally responsible. Why do you suppose that Christ called everybody Sheep and supposed they needed a Shepherd?

Look at Modern Political Theory and the practices of Market Street Advertising. It is simply assumed that the Great Masses of the People can be swayed and manipulated with unsubstantiated Propaganda. It is a horrible and cynical assumption, but the results bear out the claims.

Before, in History, Democracy was a stage in government that was understood to be a prelude to Collapse. And then, in this Modern Age, Democracy has been instituted by those who DO desire the Collapse of Government. The Transition between Civilized Order under the Rule of Kings with their Bureaucracies of Assigned Merit, and the Triumph of Barbarism and the Dark Ages, is Democracy. It is because the majority of People are not responsible moral entities. Baaaa.

I suppose you could devise a test which could weed out the great majority of those who are beneath the level of Moral Responsiblity. And then another Test to determine between those of Good Morality and those of a Conviction for Evil.

I would rather believe in The Faculty of True Discernment. Some People simply have the Gift. They can look in a person's eye and know the heart. It is really not that difficult to see what they are looking at. Try it. Look people in the eyes. Do you see a Nobleman looking back at you, or just some sly monkey? Terry Nichols had the eyes of an obedient dog abandoned by its Master.

It is really not that difficult to see what they are looking at. Try it. Look people in the eyes. Do you see a Nobleman looking back at you, or just some sly monkey?

But -- beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Doesn't the same go for nobility or slyness? Aren't they too in the eye of the beholder?

But -- beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Doesn't the same go for nobility or slyness? Aren't they too in the eye of the beholder?

The Blessed Virgin once came to me in a Vision and told me that the
Faculty most worth cultivating is the Faculty of True Discernment. Yes, most people see what they want to see, or project onto others what is merely stirred from within themselves. But a True Sage must see what is Really there. True Discernment must see what is Real.

There is an interesting episode in the first Chapters of Victor Hugo's "Les Miserables". The Emperor Napoleon, who was never a very Religious Man, happens upon a priest who quite obviously hated him. But Bonaparte looks into the Priests eyes, and once back to Paris issues orders to have the Priest raised up to the rank of Bishop. And, of course, as the book progresses we find that this Bishop, once poor priest, is a veritable Saint. So, yes, while most of us can look into another person's eyes and come up with some opinion, there are Masters of the Art who can look into the face of another and know his Soul. That is the Faculty of True Discernment.

The idea marvelously fits into my theory that time isn't linear, and that it is just the traditional conceptualization of time that time is linear.
I've long held the notion that time is an eternally valid *now*. Neither linear nor circular.

I've long held the notion that time is an eternally valid *now*. Neither linear nor circular.

Time is just the perception of rate. Linear perception would perceive the recording of rate as linear. If you can Table Rate in non-linear terms, then you can tell everybody that time can be seen as non-linear. But as far as real things are concerned, we have a Universe where things move at various speeds.

A True Sage must see what is Really there. True Discernment must see what is Real.
just like you a leo. (sarcasm)

Assuming the note was real (and so taken literally) and admitting my reply is, for the most speculative (in contrast to any real knowldedge of what is going on in Nichols' mind)...

As some may have already responded, from the perspective of Evangelical doctrine, Nichols' may have gone through all the right motions in terms of securing salvation from a forensic perspective (within the conext of Christin doctrine, that is)...

But there are things about the note which I find rather unnerving:

1) Nichols seems to equate physical death, or the lack thereof, as proof of providential invovlement. He then seems to equate that as way of affirming that he was indeed not of the same mindset and intent as that of Timothy McVeigh and thus he feels, in some sense, vindicated for those who might criticize that he too was not given the death penalty. This alone is rather strange, but...

2)What is more strange, to me at least, is that he seems to place a lot emphasis on his earthly existence - something that is considered temporary and tainted from a Protestant Christian perspective. Why use this life as centerpin for celebrating salvation (as so inversely, would death negate this renewed status with God?).

3)Even more strange, is that in using his dodging of the death penalty as a way of affriming salvation seems to completely ignore that fact that he was still involved with the murder and harming of so many innocent victims. Where is Nichol's remorse? I am not saying I am for the death penalty. But I would assume someone who has apprehended the true gravity of actions, such as those in the case of Nichols, would be able to accept grace and redemption of God, on the one hand, while accepting the penalty that must be paid to society as an ethical requirement for the sake of justice at the same time. One can be forgiven and still uphold his/her debt to society - a dynamic that is poignantly outlined in the story of Zaccheus (Luke, ch.19).

MC
=====================================

Not Perfect, Just Forgiven
Terry Nichols speaks

Where might one begin?

I don't know quite what to quote. Let's try this. But the statement is pretty much full of this kind of ... uh ... excrement. Try the link at the bottom.



I'm appalled. But hey, that's not my problem, right? All's forgiven, or else ... what might the Lord have to say?

Really, I'm curious. Because forgiveness and faith is all well and fine, but ... No.

Faith or works? John 3.16 or Matthew 25? The words of Jesus, or the letters of Paul? The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out, but where Terry goes someday is still in doubt.

Of course, he has the rest of his God-given life remaining to grovel, so who knows what he can pull off in that time?
____________________

• Associated Press. "Text of Terry Nichols' statement." Seattle Post-Intelligencer, August 9, 2004. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Nichols%20Sentence%20Text