Tensor question

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by BobG, Sep 9, 2009.

  1. BobG Registered Senior Member

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    162
    I feel this should be quite straight forward as I have learnt some tensor stuff before but I can't quite see how to do this. So the Euler-Lagrange equation for a field is

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    Using the Lagrangian for the scalar field

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    in the E-L equation yields the Klein Gordon equation

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    However I'm having trouble plugging the Lagrangian into the left hand side of the E-L equation. I can see you can pull down the other indice by putting in the metric tensor and I can kind of see then how you get the result from the product rule but only in a handwaving way and I am unsure about how you differentiate with respect to a tensor like that and in particular the manipulation of the indices when you do it.
     
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  3. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    This is a bit confusing the first time you see it. If it helps

    \(\partial_{\mu} = \frac{\partial}{\partial x^{\mu}}\)

    Indices that are on the bottom on the top are on the top when on the bottom.

    Then

    \(\frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \psi)} = \frac{\partial \partial_{\mu}\psi \partial^{\mu}\psi}{\partial (\partial_{\mu} \psi)} = \partial^{\mu}\psi\).

    Another way to think of it is to just replace \(\partial_{\mu} \psi \equiv x_{\mu}\). This may make things a bit more clear

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  5. BobG Registered Senior Member

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    162
    Cheers.

    I was always under the impression an index couldn't be repeated more than twice. Also the Lagrangian has a factor of 1/2 out the front so if you got that result wouldn't the Klein-Gordon equation also have a factor of 1/2 in front of one of the terms. Surely you also have to differentiate the second term aswell.
     
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  7. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    One way of doing this is to write \(\partial_\alpha\varph\partial^\alpha\varph=g^{ \alpha\nu}\partial_\alpha\varph\partial_\nu\varph\), where \(g^{\alpha\nu}\) is the spacetime metric, also written as \(\eta^{\alpha\nu}\) in flat space. I'm writing it with alphas instead of mu's because I'm summing over the indices labelled by alpha, whereas I'm going to take a partial derivative with respect to \(\partial_\mu\varph\) for some fixed index mu.

    Then the partial derivative of this expression with respect to \(\partial_\mu\varph\) is \(g^{\alpha\nu}\left[\partial_\alpha\varph\delta^\mu_\nu+\partial_\nu \varph\delta^\mu_\alpha\right]\), which follows naturally from the product rule for derivatives. If you now contract indices between the Kronecker deltas and the metric tensor, you easily end up with \(2\partial^\mu\varph\), which is what you need in order to derive the Klein-Gordon equation (remember there's a factor of 1/2 in the Lagrangian to cancel with this factor of 2).
     
  8. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    8,967
    Ack damn.

    Listen to Bork

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  9. neelakash Registered Senior Member

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    491
    Few weeks back,I also got stuck with it.I did it like this:

    \(\frac{d}{dt}\ x^i\ x_i\)

    differentiation this and using metric tensor in appropriate places,I found the expression equal to \(\ 2\ x^i\)
     
  10. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Registered Senior Member

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    6,702
    You're wrong about that because \(\frac{d}{dt}(x^{i}x_{i})\) has no free index, but \(2x^{i}\) does.

    \(\frac{d}{dt}(x^{i}x_{i}) = 2\dot{x}_{i}x^{i}\) and \(2x^{i} = \frac{\partial}{\partial x_{i}}(x^{j}x_{j})\)

    Two quite different results.
     
  11. neelakash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    491
    Yea,sorry,I meant some other expression:

    \(\frac{d}{d\ x_i}\( x^i\ x_i)\)
     
  12. BobG Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    162
    Thanks that seems to do it.
     

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