I have a hypothesis as to the physical or material nature of telepathy, that involve physics yet to be understood. Involving the nature of time and distance, dimensionality and the illusion of 3 dimensional space.

However at present this understanding is way ahead of us and when finally understood a uniform theory of everything [TOE] would be achieved.

In other threads I have posted a diagram just to wet the appetite as to the mechanics of universal consciousness and I shall post it again here just as a matter of curiosity.

<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/Ozziewebworkings/higs.gif>

The diagram refers to zero dimensionalism that is common to every thing that exists. That everything is in a zero distance and time relationship via a zero point [ nothing ness] as with particle entanglement [QM] we all share an entangled relationship.

However as we are self animated we break or more precisely mitigate that entanglement as soon as we are aware of it. Usually Fear and a conflict of interest causes the entanglement [ telepathic relationship ] to become broken [ altered ] as we automatically attempt to effect the entangled person once we are aware of that relationship at this level. Thus telepathy or more precisely the telepathic relationship, can only be proved in hindsight and not predicted.

One thing that seems to be confused is that telepathy invloves the instincts of at least two people but in absolute it involves the instincts of every thing that has them universally. So as I suggested earlier it is impossible to read a persons mind if their instincts prevent you from doing so. A bit like farting in a crowded elevator and pretending it aint you that done it. You hide your complicity mentally and physically thus no one in the elevator can determine the source of the dreadful smell.

Summary:
Telepathy can only be proven in hindsight and is currently unpredictive. Simply because awareness of a conscious attempt immediately causes the entanglement to be broken [ see particle entanglement in QM]

As yet it has proven almost impossible to shield two persons from ouside instinctive interference.

OK, so we have a hypothesis as to why it has proven to be impossible to demonstrate predictive telepathy.

And as hindsight proof is deemed unacceptable to science we have an impasse as to the validity of the notion.
Science requires predictability which by nature requires fore-sight and as explained this is impossible given the current state of instinctive fear based responses.

However the big philosophical question is:
Does the lack of predictability make the hindsight evidence invalid?

in my opinion it does not make it totally invalid, but predictability isnt predictable so that limits science to always outruling the possibilities that could be true,


we need a body to examine before this is taken seriously in the scientific community, to acknowledge what is seen as witchcraft will scare most respectable scientists away, just because of there human ego, if scientists parted with there huge egos then they wouldent worry about who thinks what about them and who thinks there crazy etc,


think circles think unlimited possibilities,


nice post, i like your diagram threads like the taoist trap, (if that was yours i think it was)


peace.

Hey, QQ, meant to say in the other telepathy thread how muh i like your theory. but anyhow i am saying it here

the KEY i recokon is the understanding that matter-energy is sentient

so for exmple, not ONLY another human being can onepotentially commune with in a telepathid way, but also an animal, a plany, a rock, etc

you see, the materialist, with his sci-method limited to hismaterialistic expectations will see the, eg., 'rock' and will E X P L A I N it. for example, ask tem 'what IS a rock?' and they will leaf thru the current materiasltic 'objective' state of the art info, and that is that. they are understading this from an 'OBJECTIFIST@ standpoint.......for them rock is a 'dead' thing' even tho QM has shown it is a bubbling event, still the 'event' is seen s a mecnacial event and in no way related on a deep level. cept maybe as 'actualized' by the measurement of consciousess

BUT when we begin exploring that.....we are sentient, as are our bodies, every sell, every atom, etc,,,,,AND the space in between and around us and the rock, AND the rock, thenthings become more alive with potentiality
However, as you insight--IF the person sticks to the 'objectivist' matrx, and creates an impass-like 'scientific method' which 'proves' their materialsitcassertions, and the whole intellectul, institutional man-made environment opresses with tis ideology, then it is much more strained for any understanding about this to be encouraged

so, riiiiight on QQ, keep up the good work

QQ i dont get this theory at all.

could you explain your diagram?

in my opinion it does not make it totally invalid, but predictability isnt predictable so that limits science to always outruling the possibilities that could be true,


we need a body to examine before this is taken seriously in the scientific community, to acknowledge what is seen as witchcraft will scare most respectable scientists away, just because of there human ego, if scientists parted with there huge egos then they wouldent worry about who thinks what about them and who thinks there crazy etc,


think circles think unlimited possibilities,


nice post, i like your diagram threads like the taoist trap, (if that was yours i think it was)


peace.
Just to be clear, The taoist trap thread was started by Wesmorris, which I enjoyed participating in. I felt that his diagram failed to show the inner relationship with have with reality. It was a great thread and a credit to all those who participated.

I realy have no expectation of scientific acceptance of this hypothesis at this stage given the inability to qualify and quantify it in mathematical terms etc etc.
However as a philosophy that suggests a model for collective consciousness thus sentience thus "The Physics of God" [ a book I am currently attempting to write] I think it may prove very useful in the future.

What it essentially means is that at all times we are all connected via this zero point and it is only when we become aware of this connection that this connection looses it's usual harmonious result.

Look people are people. We are always trying to tell someone else what to do, you should do this, you should do that etc etc. We are as part of our nature wanting to control and manipulate each other. Of course as soon as we try to do this the "victim" arcs up and flexes their self determination muscles and conflict naturally ensues.
The realm of telepathy is no different to what you see around you. People argueing and fighting over what each of us "should" be doing, saying and thinking.
So as far as I can tell until we manage our desire to control and manipulate each other, telepathy will not be predictable and certainly only be useful in creating conflict.

QQ i dont get this theory at all.

could you explain your diagram?

Ellion,
The diagram I first started with a few months ago was this one:
<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/one1.jpg>
It shows that as conscious beings we are aware of time and distance however as unconscious beings time and distance do not exist.
So in essense I was proposing that we are all interconnected via a zero point dimension which we commonly refer to as unconsciousness.

So in brief, when we are in a dream less sleep we are all sharing the same unconsciousness, we become one. However when we wake up or dream we immediately determine that we are separate from each other and everything else thus the entangled state is mitigated by the emergence of awareness.

So waking up means we loose our state of oneness with everything else.
[ As an aside, this is why consciousness is a constant state of sublime sufferance]

However this interconnectedness doesn't dis-appear it is just mitigated or qualified by our subjective awareness of 3 dimensions plus time.

What this means, in breif, is that we are dealing at all times when awake with two planes of existance, one is zero dimensional and the other is 4 dimensional [ inc. time]

Our interconnectedness via this zero point allows us to have a "common" reality, one that has the same rules for every one else but also allows for us to have diversity in our subjective interpretations of that "common" reality.

So all in all we have a shared reality and yet maintain a very private one simultaneously.

In another thread I mentioned a scenario about a safe. [ the sort you store money in]
And how in it's normal state it remains unlocked but as you attempt to open it it locks itself thus dis-allowing you to gain access to it's contents. yet when left alone remains open [ temptation]

The same could be said for telepathy. Once you attempt to do it, it fails however once you relax and it happens as per nature it works, thus telepathy is unpredictable until someone can do it with out trying to do it.

"don't try to do it, just do it" Yoda said to Luke as he attempted to levitate his space ship.

So in my model it become apparent that telepathy can only be proved in hindsight and is not at present able to be mastered as an act of delberate will with any consistancy.

The questioon may come up :
"Why is it we have no proof even after so many years and so much talk?"

As part of the answer I woud reply to this with:

Take for example the discipline of strict Buddhism and how a monk would devote his entire life to achieve this zero point focuss, yet none have been able to sustain this state for longer than a few moments. To have the ability to deliberately and consstantly will a telepathic event in a predicable manner takes enormous discipline and training, much more than any human is currently capable of.

So we are left with hindsight "accidental" evidence and nothing more.

Btw the hypothesis is a part of a large body of work that is not expected to be explained in full with just a few posts. A bit of a journey has to be taken to grasp it's full context.
Also particle entanglement pheno is only just being presented as evidenced in the scientific community so it will take some time for the dust to settle.

Hey, QQ, meant to say in the other telepathy thread how muh i like your theory. but anyhow i am saying it here

the KEY i recokon is the understanding that matter-energy is sentient

so for exmple, not ONLY another human being can onepotentially commune with in a telepathid way, but also an animal, a plany, a rock, etc

you see, the materialist, with his sci-method limited to hismaterialistic expectations will see the, eg., 'rock' and will E X P L A I N it. for example, ask tem 'what IS a rock?' and they will leaf thru the current materiasltic 'objective' state of the art info, and that is that. they are understading this from an 'OBJECTIFIST@ standpoint.......for them rock is a 'dead' thing' even tho QM has shown it is a bubbling event, still the 'event' is seen s a mecnacial event and in no way related on a deep level. cept maybe as 'actualized' by the measurement of consciousess

BUT when we begin exploring that.....we are sentient, as are our bodies, every sell, every atom, etc,,,,,AND the space in between and around us and the rock, AND the rock, thenthings become more alive with potentiality
However, as you insight--IF the person sticks to the 'objectivist' matrx, and creates an impass-like 'scientific method' which 'proves' their materialsitcassertions, and the whole intellectul, institutional man-made environment opresses with tis ideology, then it is much more strained for any understanding about this to be encouraged

so, riiiiight on QQ, keep up the good work

Yes yes , I see you grasp how thie entangled relationship also exists for the hard stuff [ matter ] as well.
The model I am suggesting shows that even though the "hard stuff" appears to be separate to us it is in fact a very essential part of the entire living thing that the universe is. Just becasue it is non-self animated does not necessarrily mean it is not living as you and I are.

In the context of telekenesis, it can be seen that even though we have an entangled relationship with all this hard stuff [ at a fundamental level] that as soon as we attempt to effect that hardstuff with our wills it offers resistance. Thus it takes effort to move things around. Which means that attemping to move something with our wills alone will fail because the entanglement is effectively broken or mitigated. So the more we try the harder it gets....etc...

The important thing though to consider is that we too are made or "hard stuff" and that we too have an immediate and direct relationship with the hard stuff that makes up our bodies. This entangled relationship allows us to be self animated. So if we extend this logic to the universe in general then it can be seen that the universe is a mere extension of our entangled wills. It is only because we believe it to be separate that our effect on it is mitigated.

Mind you, this is also essential because if profound mind over matter was common we would have absolute chaos.

So dualism is necessary for universal survivorship. Of course the outcome of dualism is suffering and that is what consciousness is. The suffering of not being one [ unconscious]

Perhaps this thread should be made sticky as a good definition of pseudoscience. Seven replies in and it's already incorporated dimensions, entanglement, quantum mechanics and 'zero point' without a hint of irony. Best yet, included is an excuse for the absence of evidence: (By Quantum Quack)

So in my model it become apparent that telepathy can only be proved in hindsight and is not at present able to be mastered as an act of delberate will with any consistancy.

The questioon may come up :
"Why is it we have no proof even after so many years and so much talk?"

As part of the answer I woud reply to this with:

Take for example the discipline of strict Buddhism and how a monk would devote his entire life to achieve this zero point focuss, yet none have been able to sustain this state for longer than a few moments. To have the ability to deliberately and consstantly will a telepathic event in a predicable manner takes enormous discipline and training, much more than any human is currently capable of.

Class.

Perhaps this thread should be made sticky as a good definition of pseudoscience. Seven replies in and it's already incorporated dimensions, entanglement, quantum mechanics and 'zero point' without a hint of irony. Best yet, included is an excuse for the absence of evidence: (By Quantum Quack)



Class.

ha...class....hmmmm....thanks, and yes of course it is pseudo science as is any new hypothesis before it is tested and recognised.

BTW , as an aside:
Special relativity allows for the fact that a reference frame can consider itself to be at rest [relative to other "moving" frames]and not be able to prove other wise. That it's time may be dilated and it's length contracted but not be able to prove this to be the case unless told so by another observer which then invalidates the observation because the other observer also deems himself to be at rest. [ all arbitary assessments and not evidenced as the same theory will state that no rest frame is possible other than one arbitarilly declared as such.]
The absense of evidence is well and truely indoctrinated even in this very successful theory.

so I thank you for the compliment.....although I do feel that Special relativity theory would make a better sticky for pseudo science than my little ditty.... :D

Actually I am tempted to write the following as a vehicle to understanding the contention.

Scenario:

We have Bob in New york and Jim in London. Neither are aware consciously of the others existence, they are not attempting to manipulate something they are unaware of.

During the Christmas break they both head of to Sydney, Australia for a holiday and end up sharing the same Hotel and have adjacent rooms. The first moment they become consciously aware of each other is when they meet in the hall way on their way to breakfast.
Prior to meeting in the hall way it could be said that they [their wills] were passsively entangled as it is with every one else they are unaware of and have no memory of. But as soon as they become aware, their passive entanglement becomes more pro-active as each for example attempts to impress the other or effect the others decisions. Thus the passive entanglement is lost and now the two of them are recognisably separated simply because they are aware of each other. As Bob is the aggressive American and Jim is the more passive Londoner type Bob immediately exerts his influence over Jim and Jim feels oppressed by Bob, in fact if the conflict of wills is strong enough Jim will try to avoid being with Bob.

So the reason telepathy is so hard to predict is this simple conflict of wills that goes on all the time as our awareness defeates our desire to be in control and effect our environment [ including other people]

QQ are you familiar with the work of the farsight institute?

while i agree with some of the ideas it contains i do find your theory difficult to digest.

however
In another thread I mentioned a scenario about a safe. [ the sort you store money in]
And how in it's normal state it remains unlocked but as you attempt to open it it locks itself thus dis-allowing you to gain access to it's contents. yet when left alone remains open [ temptation]the need for a safety mechanism to protect the contents is brought about by the desire to posess what is inside. when no such desire to take possession exists would the safe still close. do you think the safe is activated by the presence of an entity or the intention of that entity.

The same could be said for telepathy. Once you attempt to do it, it fails however once you relax and it happens as per nature it works, thus telepathy is unpredictable until someone can do it with out trying to do it.until the desire is not in our way.
there is something else that inhibits our natural ability. Doubt.

"don't try to do it, just do it" Yoda said to Luke as he attempted to levitate his space ship.i think what prevented luke was doubt

Take for example the discipline of strict Buddhism and how a monk would devote his entire life to achieve this zero point focuss, yet none have been able to sustain this state for longer than a few moments.To have the ability to deliberately and consstantly will a telepathic event in a predicable manner takes enormous discipline and training, much more than any human is currently capable of.maybe this is an example of trying too hard.

Yes yes , I see you grasp how thie entangled relationship also exists for the hard stuff [ matter ] as well.
The model I am suggesting shows that even though the "hard stuff" appears to be separate to us it is in fact a very essential part of the entire living thing that the universe is. Just becasue it is non-self animated does not necessarrily mean it is not living as you and I are.

In the context of telekenesis, it can be seen that even though we have an entangled relationship with all this hard stuff [ at a fundamental level] that as soon as we attempt to effect that hardstuff with out wills it offers resistance. Thus it takes effort to move things around. Which means that attemping to move something with our wills alone will fail because the entanglement is effectively broken or mitigated. So the more we try the harder it gets....etc...

The important thing though to consider is that we too are made or "hard stuff" and that we too have an immediate and direct relationship with the hard stuff that makes up our bodies. This entangled relationship allows us to be self animated. So if we extend this logic to the universe in general then it can be seen that the universe is a mere extension of our entangled wills. It is only because we believe it to be separate that our effect on it is mitigated.

Mind you, this is also essential because if profound mind over matter was common we would have absolute chaos.

So dualism is necessary for universal survivorship. Of course the outcome of dualism is suffering and that is what consciousness is. The suffering of not being one [ unconscious]

i rather see it as modes oc consciousneess....for example our present state is as adequate as othewr states, and all states are part of a dynamic continuum o potential states...

so i dont see anything wrong with having to physically move things about. for our muscular, cardivascluar system needs us to excercise. it is great to be active and to be active. notice mow modern technology seems to demand we dp less and less with its push button gadgets. people become more and more LESS active, even children. and this is not good for health

in othe modes---can call them deeper i you wish. one may be more susceptable for experiences such as telepathy, OBE's etc-------sych experiences might not be appropriates when the more physical modeis needed. get me? yet there is POTENTIAL for all forms of awareness etc

but what materialistic philosophy does is dismisa and ridicule and explain away other modes of being/experience. thus oppressing everyone who may have had such expeiences, and are made to feel 'liars' 'whackos' etc, ad discourags those who are interested in exploring about it, especially if they get sucked into te materialistic philosophy, and then deny other foms and ways orf relating to reality

speculating, i have read Jack Sarfatti's theories of possible spce craft which can be controlled 'telepthically' tho am not sure he uses that term. but is more an understanding of relation between craft and bodymind.....?

So the reason telepathy is so hard to predict is this simple conflict of wills that goes on all the time as our awareness defeates our desire to be in control and effect our environment [ including other people]
I keep noticing a pattern throughout this thread and others claiming telepathy. It is obvious in this sentence I quoted. There seems to be a continuous jump of logic between observation and explanation. There are auxiliary hypotheses or assumptions that haven't been tested. For example, "simple conflict of wills" is a value judgment. Not science.

Pseudoscience involves ideas that are dressed up as science but aren't. Also known as "non-science." If it isn't scientific at all, it cannot even be "bad science." This is "non-science."

You might want to rework your idea, QQ, including tests of your ad hoc assumptions.

I keep noticing a pattern throughout this thread and others claiming telepathy. It is obvious in this sentence I quoted. There seems to be a continuous jump of logic between observation and explanation. There are auxiliary hypotheses or assumptions that haven't been tested. For example, "simple conflict of wills" is a value judgment. Not science.


This of course assumes that I am not referring to the physical nature of our wills, and that this simple conflict of wills is not just a mere value judgement but also a physical effect of two of more wills attempting to to do different things with in the same person.

Of course these ideas have yet to be tested or even determined as to whether testing is even possible. All the above is really about suggesting a hypothesis and seeing how it fits in with my observations.
I am confident that I am not the only person who has thought these thoughts.

The hypothesis I suggest seems to fit just fine to what I have observed. Will it ever be proved and evidenced?...I doubt it. So it just remains a mere thought, an abstraction , an idea and that is all it may be to you but it is a possible evolving solution to me.

QQ are you familiar with the work of the farsight institute?
No, not specifically,[ have just googled to their web site] however I am aware that there are a few organisations that promote the notion and training in and of remote viewing.[RV]
Years ago after experiencing many RV type events I did some research and found that in the main there was no serious [non-commercial ] efforts to understand or offer help to those interested in the subject.
One website was offering personal training for a huge amount of money and I was put off doing any further research over the internet.

What I have found from experience is that there are at least two forms of remote perception viewing.
One I call remote sensing and the other I refer to as remote viewing.
Remote viewing can be described as direct "mindeye" visual perception and remote sensing is indirect [via the senses] involving all the senses in varying degrees of intensity. Remote sensing is by far the harder ability to live with that remote viewing. [ picking up stray or unwanted remote sensed information can be very confusing]
The physics of Remote viewing/sensing [ direct perception ] touch upon the very fundamentals of existance, and provides insight into the collective imagination/ consciousness that few have achieved.

Do you have a particular interest in this area Ellion?

the need for a safety mechanism to protect the contents is brought about by the desire to posess what is inside. when no such desire to take possession exists would the safe still close. do you think the safe is activated by the presence of an entity or the intention of that entity.

Both, because it is the nature of the awareness of the entity to have purpose attached to that awareness. It is unavoidable that even though the entity wishes not to possess the contents of the safe consciously his instincts would show other wise. In other words consciously not wanting the contents is not enough it must also be instinctive as well. And that is the hardest thing to train to be instinctively passively benign...

until the desire is not in our way.
there is something else that inhibits our natural ability. Doubt.

i think what prevented luke was doubt

maybe this is an example of trying too hard.

Correct, doubt has it's inhibiting effects however the mere trying to do something implies doubt. To try to do something is to apply effort in the doing. As soon as you apply effort that exceeds your normal passive abilities the effort becomes counter productive. [Ask a concert pianist about the difference between playing and trying to play the piano for example]
Funnilly enough the idea of having Luke stand on one hand and levitate his craft has some relevance, in that not only is he distracted by the effort of standing on one hand he is putting his energy into the standing on one hand thus diverting his energy from levitating the craft thus making the levitation easier. However one wonders why he just simply didn't levitate himself and be done with it. By splitting his energy focuss he has lowered his concentration level on the craft to a more "incidental "level.

i dont have an interest in remote viewing particularly, my interest is more in the spiritual.

it was more the scientific theory that you presented that made me wonder if your interest in parapsychology was related to RV. i feel that the farsight institute has a very similar theoretical framework to the one you present. they use different terms to describes similar concepts, they also take into consideration QM etc, if you have browsed their site you will have noticed they are a scientific research oranisation and provide many FREE resources for RV training, including full RV courses. as you probably know RV is a discipline which is predictable and provable as a psi phenomena.

Remote sensing is by far the harder ability to live with that remote viewing.my geuss would be that when you dont understand what is happening to you and every one you ask for help thinks your psychotic, every blossoming psychic function is a nightmare to live with.

Both, because it is the nature of the awareness of the entity to have purpose attached to that awareness. It is unavoidable that even though the entity wishes not to possess the contents of the safe consciously his instincts would show other wise. In other words consciously not wanting the contents is not enough it must also be instinctive as well. And that is the hardest thing to train to be instinctively passively benign..this part of our culture now, something else we must live with.
there is another perspective here, that of the safe. to allow your possesions to be take nout and handled by curious entities, entities that may even want to steal your possesions. this take a great deal of trust and similarly dispassion for the contents of the safe, desirelessness. how do you train such things in the average person. in the culture that we inhabit why would they even want to begin such a training.


Correct, doubt has it's inhibiting effects however the mere trying to do something implies doubt. this is obviously a big obstacle to growth in the whole area of ESP and PSI, have you considered ways to overcome this?

i dont have an interest in remote viewing particularly, my interest is more in the spiritual.

it was more the scientific theory that you presented that made me wonder if your interest in parapsychology was related to RV. i feel that the farsight institute has a very similar theoretical framework to the one you present. they use different terms to describes similar concepts, they also take into consideration QM etc, if you have browsed their site you will have noticed they are a scientific research oranisation and provide many FREE resources for RV training, including full RV courses. as you probably know RV is a discipline which is predictable and provable as a psi phenomena.

my geuss would be that when you dont understand what is happening to you and every one you ask for help thinks your psychotic, every blossoming psychic function is a nightmare to live with.

I have browsed the site and will spend more time researching their services however where I do differ is that I consider "soul" and "spirit" also to be physical pheno. This is where I confuse people the most I guess.

Years ago when first experinecing psi pheno I decided that for it to be real it must be physical. In some ways I was fortifying my belief systems so that I was not lost in this dualistic world of flimsy and substance.
I considered that this reality we share is in fact central to all other planes of existance and that those planes co-existed with in and not without this reality we all share.
I determined about 12 years ago that the bodies nervous system was the linch pin to all these dimensions. That it was our neurology that held it all together as one multi dimensional reality.
So I see many similarities however I do differ on what the definition of "physical" is.

I do not see the dualism that most do although I do understand why dualism is necessary. To me it is all one.
Even the spirit or soul is energy and that energy is physical even if undetectable at present by conventional measuring devices.

The main reason I have avoided reading and researching this topic is that in nearly all cases a dualistic approach is espoused and this I feel corrupts the insights and understandings I have attained.

So all my theories and hypothesis' have been self derived through experinece and a great deal of pro-active thinking.
For example: The website you suggested mentions the desire to learn about God. Yet to me this is the same as learing about yourself. I do not see any distinction between the two concepts. To differentiate spirit from matter [ as deundy has discussed] is to inhibit the truth from being found. So I automatically consider spirit to be material or physical and thus simplifying the thought process accordingly.

As an extension to the thread topic:

I can give one very profound example of why I know Schizophrenia is the outcome of telepathic or psychic confusion. That the voices they hear are not just simply the manifestation of an over active imagination that they are physically yet psychically contrived. That their own voice is split into two thus their will is split into two. So as you can imagine they are in a state of war with their own voice, which has been split into two wills....[.a Self determination violation ]

I was observing a person that I have observed for many months who was in the throws of having an arguement with these so called imaginary voices. He was approximately 40 feet way, yelling abuse and waving his arms and hands about in a very aggressive and threatening fashion. [typical]

I could actually remotely hear the conversation he was having. Both his voice and the secondary voice. I actually attempted to communicate with him using his "imaginary voice" and succeeded in doing so, so much so that he sat down and started a conversation with me [ 30 feet away with no idea where this new voice was coming from]. However the concentration needed on my part was so intense that I had to break contact with in about 3 minutes. Since then this persons behaviour has changed radically, for the better I might add because now he is subconsciously tuned into me and not the aggressive voices he was accustomed to. In fact he has been seen engaging in so called normal behaviour since and most who know of him consider it a small miracle, however they do not know of what transpired between us.

So when persons tell me that telepathy is BS I can only think of all the times it has been proved to me to be other wise.

And yes it is hard to live with the truth amongst those who prefer to be blind to it and are intolerant of it [ another SD violation outcome - Intolerance]

this part of our culture now, something else we must live with.
there is another perspective here, that of the safe. to allow your possesions to be take nout and handled by curious entities, entities that may even want to steal your possesions. this take a great deal of trust and similarly dispassion for the contents of the safe, desirelessness. how do you train such things in the average person. in the culture that we inhabit why would they even want to begin such a training.


this is obviously a big obstacle to growth in the whole area of ESP and PSI, have you considered ways to overcome this?

I have said in other threads that the problem with telepathy is that it must by necessity involve at least two bodies. It is not enough to train just one persons instincts you have to train every ones as well. This of course amounts to making it impossible by conventional means. It can only be achieved by using the psi to train the psi.

A person may be very receptive but others will instinctively shut that person down immediately their instinct determine a threat exists.
The reason I had some success with the psychotic person mentioned above was that he was already under the stress of a SD violation [self determination ] and the violation I created was nothing compared to the violations he was already experiencing. So he was able to allow me to talk to him even if it meant that he could rest for a few moments. Also all those persons that were subconsciously tuned in also allowed me a degree of success due to the philanthropic nature of my desire. Yet as I psi talked with him the psi curiocity of others in what I was doing became stronger and stronger causing me to concentrate harder and harder untill I simply had to break contact.

So from my perspective it is our instinctive reactions that poses the greatest obstacle yet one must appreciate that they also pose our greatest asset for with out them chaos would be the outcome. So the problem of instinctive reaction is both a blessing and an obstacle.

Hi QQ, i am really finding your posts very intersting. but i disagreee where you claim that 'spirit/consciousness' is physical.......this isn't me being dulistic, itis just that i am understnding Christian de Quincey's insights aboutt this to be more plausible

for example he argues that spirit/consciousness is ALWAYS WITH atter-energy, precisely because it is how matter-energy FEELS. but altho always togther they are distinct. ie matter-energy even in its most subtle forms. like vibratory waves, is STILL potentially measureable, whereas consciousness is not

this is a really important point i feel, when you loook at materialist philosophy whicy believes it ccan measure even CONSCIOUSNESS--ie., that it will soon 'one day' be able to measure SUBJECTIVE consciousness.....THAt actually, in bio-psychiatry it already believes it CAn measure subjective consciousness objectively, and hence we have the opppressive mental illhess myth!

BUT, if it is realized consciousness cannot be measured in its deepest essence, ten tis shows up the limitations opf materialistic philosophy wit its measuring stick

Al i am saying QQ, isthat in your insistance that spirit can eventually be measured compliments the materialistic ideology, even tho i feel you are not wanting to do such as that

it's important to dig that seeing that spirit/consciosness is distinct from matter-energy is not dualstic. it israther re-insighting the primal understanding of sentience. of Nature being tingling with aliveness
wat IS dualistic are ideologies which state that one side, 'spirit' or 'mater' are the dominant, and notice how materialsim does away entirely with the discarded side

Amreally geeling with your insight how te adherence to left-brained conceptual dominance, how this attitude/coice will atrophy deeper experiential interelationship wi reality. surethey will prod and look through magnifying glass, and so on, but ACTUaL experience of 'other dimensions' will become more and more alien to that mindset

Actually, ironicaly enough, tthe measuring of consciousness, objectively has shown how when one learns a kill, the brain becomes more expansive and skillful for that interest. so eg., playing an instrument, painting, creativity willopen up those areas of thew brain/mind..........lternatively. mathemtaical skills etc will also. therfore any materialist who again and agin trains themselves in that ideology is obviously atrophying other ways of experincing in a deep way. they become too cerebrial/all-in-the-head

so could they say same to me. some here have told me to go read a science book. i would say no. i would say that the forer is VSTLY more important. it is the GROUND. logic is merely a tool. trouble is is when the tool assumes dominance over reality itself, which is what is tragially happening in the world. all deeper sense of feeling is demeaned as being inconsequential by the prevailing materialistic believers

Hi QQ, i am really finding your posts very intersting. but i disagreee where you claim that 'spirit/consciousness' is physical.......this isn't me being dulistic, itis just that i am understnding Christian de Quincey's insights aboutt this to be more plausible

for example he argues that spirit/consciousness is ALWAYS WITH atter-energy, precisely because it is how matter-energy FEELS. but altho always togther they are distinct. ie matter-energy even in its most subtle forms. like vibratory waves, is STILL potentially measureable, whereas consciousness is not

this is a really important point i feel, when you loook at materialist philosophy whicy believes it ccan measure even CONSCIOUSNESS--ie., that it will soon 'one day' be able to measure SUBJECTIVE consciousness.....THAt actually, in bio-psychiatry it already believes it CAn measure subjective consciousness objectively, and hence we have the opppressive mental illhess myth!

BUT, if it is realized consciousness cannot be measured in its deepest essence, ten tis shows up the limitations opf materialistic philosophy wit its measuring stick

Al i am saying QQ, isthat in your insistance that spirit can eventually be measured compliments the materialistic ideology, even tho i feel you are not wanting to do such as that

it's important to dig that seeing that spirit/consciosness is distinct from matter-energy is not dualstic. it israther re-insighting the primal understanding of sentience. of Nature being tingling with aliveness
wat IS dualistic are ideologies which state that one side, 'spirit' or 'mater' are the dominant, and notice how materialsim does away entirely with the discarded side

Amreally geeling with your insight how te adherence to left-brained conceptual dominance, how this attitude/coice will atrophy deeper experiential interelationship wi reality. surethey will prod and look through magnifying glass, and so on, but ACTUaL experience of 'other dimensions' will become more and more alien to that mindset

Actually, ironicaly enough, tthe measuring of consciousness, objectively has shown how when one learns a kill, the brain becomes more expansive and skillful for that interest. so eg., playing an instrument, painting, creativity willopen up those areas of thew brain/mind..........lternatively. mathemtaical skills etc will also. therfore any materialist who again and agin trains themselves in that ideology is obviously atrophying other ways of experincing in a deep way. they become too cerebrial/all-in-the-head

so could they say same to me. some here have told me to go read a science book. i would say no. i would say that the forer is VSTLY more important. it is the GROUND. logic is merely a tool. trouble is is when the tool assumes dominance over reality itself, which is what is tragially happening in the world. all deeper sense of feeling is demeaned as being inconsequential by the prevailing materialistic believers
Duendy,
You touch upon the issue of logical truth vs actual truth. In a lot of ways logic is merely a form of rational speculation. It can achieve the pseudo-understanding of truths but is not capable of providing the experience of those truths.

The reason I require experience to be my teacher is that it is only through experience that the truth can be realised as something more than just a logical speculation. We tend, as you have rightly pointed out, to rely too heavilly on logical speculation, and in doing so loose the ability to see the truth and we can only see the truth that is percieved as logical. Yet so much truth is illogical waiting patiently to become logical [ to us]

I have argued this case before with the "Prince " of logic [ Prince James please forgive me ha]
Many aspects of reality are at present illogical. In fact the mere fact that reality exists at all is rooted in what is currently percieved as illogicality. For all this to have come from nothing is truely sciences greatest paradox and yet once the logic is learned it is not longer apparently illogical but very logical . In fact reality must exist and not just because it is some sort of universal convenience but as a matter of physical necessity.

So if we make logic our master then we shall only see that which is logical and ignore that which isn't. So yes I agree with you on how the materialist has built a significant barrier around himself with his demand that everything that is observed be logical even before that logic is able to be understood.

As to your other concern I am not concerned if I seem to offer support for the dualism of matter/spirit. I have clearly stated that I consider all of existance to be physical in nature, whether that be spirit, consciouness etc. Being physical does not necessarilly mean that is can be measured. For example I believe consciousness to be an effect that has physical causation. Once the infinitely variable causation has been measured then maybe we have measured consciousness by default. [ in other words it is impossibe to measure due to the infinite nature of all that silly measuring]
Any way this is not really a concern of mine as I am more interested in devloping ideas that may in the future be of benefit in the understanding of experiences that are evolving for me and others.

Btw u may have noticed that in nearly all cases I do not attempt to change a persons beliefs. I have no desire to change yours or any one elses beliefs. I learned along time ago that to do so only leads to uneccessary conflict. I can only state what I believe and know and let the reader judge for himself what if any of my words, are of worth to them. So as a matter of policy I can not join you in your quest to confront the polarised thinking and beliefs of others.

Duendy,
for example he argues that spirit/consciousness is ALWAYS WITH atter-energy, precisely because it is how matter-energy FEELS. but altho always togther they are distinct. ie matter-energy even in its most subtle forms. like vibratory waves, is STILL potentially measureable, whereas consciousness is not

I agree that the universe has "soul" so to speak, however this is an area that I have had limited exposure to and am yet not confident enough to comment to much on.

For example there is no doubt to me that the Earth gives the impression of being feminine, the sun gives the impression of being masculine and the moon gives the impression of being a prepubescent [ asexual] sibling of the two. However these are to me just impressions or feelings about these particular bodies of mass and are more conversational than philosophy or physics.

I do though loosely believe that the Earth is it self a living entity with feelings and even perception, however sentience is a question I would rather put aside for now.
Of course if the Earth feels to be living then so to does the rest of the universe.
It is possible that we are an expression of earth/sun life force, that we reflect the soul that is s-he as an expression of he-r.
But this is more poetry and metaphour than anything else.

Duendy,


I agree that the universe has "soul" so to speak, however this is an area that I have had limited exposure to and am yet not confident enough to comment to much on.

me)))))nothing stopping you speculating, hypothesizing, using imagination

For example there is no doubt to me that the Earth gives the impression of being feminine, the sun gives the impression of being masculine and the moon gives the impression of being a prepubescent [ asexual] sibling of the two. However these are to me just impressions or feelings about these particular bodies of mass and are more conversational than philosophy or physics.

me))))))paltho the concept of the Earth as feminine--ie., 'Mother Earth' is a very anceint iea, i am more into ambiguity. not separating male from female

I do though loosely believe that the Earth is it self a living entity with feelings and even perception, however sentience is a question I would rather put aside for now.

me))))))i wouod ask, what IS 'Earth'..isn't it a dynmic collage of ecosystems all intelligent and interelated ly in balance/disequilibrium?

Of course if the Earth feels to be living then so to does the rest of the universe.
It is possible that we are an expression of earth/sun life force, that we reflect the soul that is s-he as an expression of he-r.
But this is more poetry and metaphour than anything else.

I believe mythology in its origins, was pre-literate ad involved more tan text, song, and poetry, and associative understanding of the likeness between things
So for example, the snake comes to represent the changing cycles of Nature becayse it seems to keep forever young by sloughing off its skin. likewise so does life. body gets old, dies, and new life is regeneration......also serpent represnts spine and the life force/'kundaline'--as supposed energy that lies usually coiled at base of spine but under certian circumstances can awaken and move upo the spine to heah and all parts of body so as to activate ecstatic experince.....snke can also represent the mushroom, especially te sacred mushroom, because like te mushroom it emerges phalliclike from a hole in the Earth, and some snakes have an hallucinogenic 'poison' in their bite.....and snakes move like wter, etc etc etc. so you can see just from te one creature all the associations associated with it. same with 'Tree' and 'Water' etc

i see no harm in thie whente associational understanding bonds one with Nature. i find tis preliterate understandng, and insight much more fruitful than te most analytical, scientifically method measured
mathematically calculated 'proof-truth'; that a rock is precisely 'xyz' and thats that, and tat tere is no evidence it is alive, ,,,,,,,because that 'evidence' deadens --from then on--your RELATIONSHIP with that rock, tree, snake....whatever. and it des this in a very decisive way. do u see?
This despite that you personally MAy have a deep experience wit realityl. yet the mscientists will sy, no it cant be because our evidence says such and such

what they mean is, their OBJECTIVE evidence!....we are not puttig that down. of courst such knowledge is sacred also. BUT we also are experiences.........and to experience rock on a more deeper personal level/dimension we have to not doismiss SUBJECTIVE awareness which reaches out from deep within to deep within

Years ago when first experinecing psi pheno I decided that for it to be real it must be physical. In some ways I was fortifying my belief systems so that I was not lost in this dualistic world of flimsy and substance.
... ...

I do not see the dualism that most do although I do understand why dualism is necessary. To me it is all one.
Even the spirit or soul is energy and that energy is physical even if undetectable at present by conventional measuring devices.
ice, water and steam are the same substance in different states. we should call them what they are at the level we expereince them. mostly people are seeing things from different perspectives, for me all is an expression of spirit. i have no porblem with diualistic terms. it is easier for me tos ay my body is physical and my soul is spirit, neither is absolutley true, neither is false but both suffice for a purpose.

I considered that this reality we share is in fact central to all other planes of existance and that those planes co-existed with in and not without this reality we all share.did you ever here how the centre of the circle is everywhere but the circumference is nowhere found?

That the voices they hear are not just simply the manifestation of an over active imagination that they are physically yet psychically contrived. That their own voice is split into two thus their will is split into two. So as you can imagine they are in a state of war with their own voice, which has been split into two wills....[.a Self determination violation ]very interesting but i feel there are other phenomena which are not expelained by this. your example with [the patient?]you observed is great too, i can see how that would work.

I can only think of all the times it has been proved to me to be other wise. me too, i have a lot of personal expereince that i have come to understand and appreciate as a very specail gift.

I have said in other threads that the problem with telepathy is that it must by necessity involve at least two bodies. It is not enough to train just one persons instincts you have to train every ones as well. do you think this would apply to listening too. hearing, clairaudience?

This of course amounts to making it impossible by conventional means. It can only be achieved by using the psi to train the psi. then how would you train a trainer? it is an interesting idea though and i wonder if this was arrived at through expereince or by pro-active thinking?

A person may be very receptive but others will instinctively shut that person down immediately their instinct determine a threat exists.this would take me back to the metaphor of the safe, where the entity was not a threat would the safe close? i don ot feel it would. perhaps if the entity was about teaching you psi would that shut you down? from what you have told me there have been experiences for you wher you have not been closed down? was that because there was no other entity involved or because the entity involved was truely benevolent?

So from my perspective it is our instinctive reactions that poses the greatest obstacle yet one must appreciate that they also pose our greatest asset for with out them chaos would be the outcome. So the problem of instinctive reaction is both a blessing and an obstacle.yes i agree, i believe are culture is to blame for this but i also believe that if we can continue to work in the light and bring that higher vibration down until the light illumnies even the darkest recess. i will stop my poetic rambling there i think you will understand my intent on that line.

ice, water and steam are the same substance in different states. we should call them what they are at the level we expereince them. mostly people are seeing things from different perspectives, for me all is an expression of spirit. i have no porblem with diualistic terms. it is easier for me tos ay my body is physical and my soul is spirit, neither is absolutley true, neither is false but both suffice for a purpose.

I find this to be a sensible position.

did you ever here how the centre of the circle is everywhere but the circumference is nowhere found?

I like this . It reminds me of my attempts to desribe the nature of gravity in the physics forum. Using an Inverse sphere as the geometric nature of it.

<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/invsphere11.jpg>

Ellion,

“ That the voices they hear are not just simply the manifestation of an over active imagination that they are physically yet psychically contrived. That their own voice is split into two thus their will is split into two. So as you can imagine they are in a state of war with their own voice, which has been split into two wills....[.a Self determination violation ] ”

very interesting but i feel there are other phenomena which are not expelained by this. your example with [the patient?]you observed is great too, i can see how that would work.

No it is not supposed to explain all pheno, but merely suggest a hyposthesis for the fundamental nature of what we are discussing. The mechanics if you like of telepathy and by extension collective universal consciousness and imagination. How is this collective achieved and by what mechanism.

“ I can only think of all the times it has been proved to me to be other wise. ”
me too, i have a lot of personal expereince that i have come to understand and appreciate as a very specail gift.

To some unfortunately it is necessarilly a special "Night mare" as well. Compounded by the fact that their experiences are discounted as delusionary by the very persons they turn to for help. After all committing a person to a life were by their power of attorney is removed from [institutionalisation] them is the ultimate in Self determination violations yes?

“ I have said in other threads that the problem with telepathy is that it must by necessity involve at least two bodies. It is not enough to train just one persons instincts you have to train every ones as well. ”
do you think this would apply to listening too. hearing, clairaudience?

Given that you are never the only person listening and reacting to what you hear yes, it does apply to clairaudience as well. Remember it is the unpredictive nature of these pheno that is being discussed. [ this thread ]
It means that when things are appropriately relaxed and everything is in concordance [ prepared to allow and event to occur] that these abilities seem to show themselves, However to do so predictably means that our wills are forcing something to occur when it may not be possible to do so.

“ This of course amounts to making it impossible by conventional means. It can only be achieved by using the psi to train the psi. ”
then how would you train a trainer? it is an interesting idea though and i wonder if this was arrived at through expereince or by pro-active thinking?

This prompts a line of memories that may be one day I will share in public
However to say that the universe is a tremendous teacher would be an understatement [ Even scientists and physicists will agree ]. But it is worth noting that the teacher does not necessarilly care how much suffering those lessons generate in the student.
Those lessons do require both experience and a whole heap of pro-active thought. The suffering gerenated providing the incentive to work towards solutions. Unfortunately the suffering can be so intense that the lesson is lost until the suffering is tempored with undertstanding and then reflexes are trained to prevent that suffering from re-occuring thus the lessons involve suffering and learning how not to suffer. [ learning to live with your natural abilities aint easy sometimes]

I might add that this method is no different to that which occurs in normal life for all persons however in this case it is a deeper psychic sufference which employs amongst many things, self determination violations as it's main method of sufference. In other words the lessons are not voluntarilly entered into initially. The path is not an easy one, I can state that without any doubt what so ever.

“ A person may be very receptive but others will instinctively shut that person down immediately their instinct determine a threat exists. ”

this would take me back to the metaphor of the safe, where the entity was not a threat would the safe close? i don ot feel it would. perhaps if the entity was about teaching you psi would that shut you down? from what you have told me there have been experiences for you wher you have not been closed down? was that because there was no other entity involved or because the entity involved was truely benevolent?

This strikes at the very heart of the issue. We humans are very special in the sense that we are very capable of being individual and unique. We are able to step out of the group or hive mentality and act independantly of others. Our sense of freewill is incredibly special and also incredibly sensitive.
Any teacher must by the nature of these attributes violate a persons self determination in the process of communication, so that even if the teacher were absolutely benign he would either be ignored or felt as a threat to your Self determination.
This of course extends to religious sentiment where by God speaks to no one and only attempt so show his involvement by more "cryptic" means. Dealing in irony and coincedence seems to be the only way that God can communicate to the student as any other more overt methods necessarilly cause these SD violations. How often God has been claimed to be the Devil simply because the person "possessed" is in fear of their self determination?

Yet that same person will at another time claim that he is communing with God and them a few seconds later feel it is the devil instead....etc etc....

It is easy to see that if one considers the sensitivity to SD violations is so profound that the paranoia created blind the sufferer to a state of insanity.

There are many famous examples of this SD problem at work and would take many threads and posts to even explore the superficial.

I am not claiming with the above the existance of "God" or the "Devil" I am merely pointing our how SD violations and the fear that they provoke can generate these types of interpretations. Due to ignorance most persons would feel that if they were communicating telepathically that it would be with a higher being such as God or the Devil when in fact it could be with their best friend but because of the SD violatiuon involved that best friend is now the enemy.

So the only way to succeed in this area of interest is to understand fully what SD violations actually are and de-sensitise and tolerate them comfortably.

[ this is the sort of therapy that is needed in psychiatric hospitals and out patient treatments etc. IMO]

“ So from my perspective it is our instinctive reactions that poses the greatest obstacle yet one must appreciate that they also pose our greatest asset for with out them chaos would be the outcome. So the problem of instinctive reaction is both a blessing and an obstacle. ”

yes i agree, i believe are culture is to blame for this but i also believe that if we can continue to work in the light and bring that higher vibration down until the light illumnies even the darkest recess. i will stop my poetic rambling there i think you will understand my intent on that line.

If it is kept in mind the the "light" can be seen as negative [SD violation] if not wanted or understood then greater success would be possible.

I believe mythology in its origins, was pre-literate ad involved more tan text, song, and poetry, and associative understanding of the likeness between things
So for example, the snake comes to represent the changing cycles of Nature becayse it seems to keep forever young by sloughing off its skin. likewise so does life. body gets old, dies, and new life is regeneration......also serpent represnts spine and the life force/'kundaline'--as supposed energy that lies usually coiled at base of spine but under certian circumstances can awaken and move upo the spine to heah and all parts of body so as to activate ecstatic experince.....snke can also represent the mushroom, especially te sacred mushroom, because like te mushroom it emerges phalliclike from a hole in the Earth, and some snakes have an hallucinogenic 'poison' in their bite.....and snakes move like wter, etc etc etc. so you can see just from te one creature all the associations associated with it. same with 'Tree' and 'Water' etc

i see no harm in thie whente associational understanding bonds one with Nature. i find tis preliterate understandng, and insight much more fruitful than te most analytical, scientifically method measured
mathematically calculated 'proof-truth'; that a rock is precisely 'xyz' and thats that, and tat tere is no evidence it is alive, ,,,,,,,because that 'evidence' deadens --from then on--your RELATIONSHIP with that rock, tree, snake....whatever. and it des this in a very decisive way. do u see?
This despite that you personally MAy have a deep experience wit realityl. yet the mscientists will sy, no it cant be because our evidence says such and such

what they mean is, their OBJECTIVE evidence!....we are not puttig that down. of courst such knowledge is sacred also. BUT we also are experiences.........and to experience rock on a more deeper personal level/dimension we have to not doismiss SUBJECTIVE awareness which reaches out from deep within to deep within

"tis funny I have often suggested that it is only when we can stop talking that we can learn to listen.

Our minds are so busy with words and symbols we often forget that our lives consist of impressions, intuition and instincts and things that are more than just symbols and language

One of the reasons why meditation is so benificial is that when we learn to quiten our hyper active intellects and diminish our reliance on logic we can actyually give oursleves teh time to just sense with out overly dissemminating and discriminating and comparing what it is we sense.

The amount of truth out there that is available when we are able to listen for it and to it is truelly amazing. But to do so we need to stop our inner talking and analysis.

Years before languages were formalised persons had only feeling and senses to interpret the universe with and in doing so "saw" many truths that are unable to be seen today simply because we don't have the time to "look" properly.

To learn how to relax that mental voice box and sit quietly sensing your environment woudl be one of the greatest lessons one can learn in todays high paced living.

I am not suggesting that we should dump our rationalising and objective pursuits but merely suggesting that the need to find a balance is ever increasing as our intellect grows and our logic skills evolve.

Ha..... I am starting to sound like a real "new ager" ha.

So much of these truths are so subtle and fleeting that to recognise them is almost impossible if that recognition is cluttered with so many lies.

Take for example the discovery of particle entanglement.
I wonder how many times this pheno has been observed but discounted simply because current thought would dis-allow it's existance.

"Ahh that can't be right " the physicist says to himself, as he rationalises Special Relativity Theory with his observation.

The pheno is ignored until later when someone is more prepared to accept that the current theories we have are still far from complete. and has an open mind to further completing those theories. So with the risk of wasting his time he starts to look at the pheno of particle entaglement and well, something so subtle is finaly discovered to actually be real.

I can imagine just how subtle this pheno is.

Then to go on and prove it in such a ridgid evidencial mind set is rather extraordinary, and I must admit I am impressed that this pheno has been found and evidenced given that science dis-allows FTL [ Faster than light communications] and simultaneity [ absolute time ], so strongly.

What if telepathy is not actual voice to voice communication or communication at all? I rekon telepathy at our current time is used to send genetic imformation to others so that it can be coded. Once a certain amount of coding has been done then 2 way voice to voice communication will begin. When genetic imformation to be coded is sent to another person it intergrates as their thoughts and is indistinguishable from their own thoughts. You simply believe it was you who thought something when really it came from a burst of genetic imformation sent to you that has to be coded. By coding the genetics that someone has sent to you you actually code your own faster so it actually benefits both individuals. Theres a kinda money system to where you earn for the coding of other people that you do. This is spent on obtaining more coding to be done for yourself by others. You are of course constantly coding your own genetics all the time. Every single thought you have is actually all coding at its base. Maybe some people have already had enough genetics coded and they are able to send telepathic communications but the other person would not be able to respond as they don't have the coding done yet. I think the communication the not enough coded person would hear would just show up as there own thoughts and not be distingusiable as someone elses voice as they don't have the coding to convert the message. Also the original message from the sender is altered and changed because thats all the current coding level of the reciever is able to do with it. There are protocals TCP/IP etc just like computers. Telepathy is all about genetics. Life is all about coding genetics.

The mechanics if you like of telepathy and by extension collective universal consciousness and imagination. How is this collective achieved and by what mechanism.my thought is that collective universal consciousness and the imagination ARE the mechanics of telepathy, perhaps not THE complete machine but a damn good working model. probably the best we can do from our position within the current world/cosmic consciousness.


To some unfortunately it is necessarilly a special "Night mare" as well. Compounded by the fact that their experiences are discounted as delusionary by the very persons they turn to for help. After all committing a person to a life were by their power of attorney is removed from [institutionalisation] them is the ultimate in Self determination violations yes?indeed, it is a blessing that we learn quickly who we can trust and know when it is best to keep our mouths shut.


Given that you are never the only person listening and reacting to what you hear yes, it does apply to clairaudience as well. Remember it is the unpredictive nature of these pheno that is being discussed. [ this thread ]
It means that when things are appropriately relaxed and everything is in concordance [ prepared to allow and event to occur] that these abilities seem to show themselves, However to do so predictably means that our wills are forcing something to occur when it may not be possible to do so.
i suppose i should take your word as i have never tried or needed to predict, for me it is not about evidence but expereince.
i wondered if you have put your own menatl blocks on your expereimnts by exagerating the SDV. are your concentrations towards overcoming the SDV problem rather than being open, alert and receptive "not trying, just doing"


This prompts a line of memories that may be one day I will share in public
...
...
The path is not an easy one, I can state that without any doubt what so ever.i understand, i think perahps we had the same teacher.

Any teacher must by the nature of these attributes violate a persons self determination in the process of communication, so that even if the teacher were absolutely benign he would either be ignored or felt as a threat to your Self determinationi would like to work this out with you as best as we can without revealing those personal subjective aspects that are not for public scrutiny.
you see for me those SDVs do not happen. i am unsure why you give them so much consideration.
This of course extends to religious sentiment where by God speaks to no one and only attempt so show his involvement by more "cryptic" means. Dealing in irony and coincedence seems to be the only way that God can communicate to the student as any other more overt methods necessarilly cause these SD violations.i dont feel this i necessarily so, there are no SDVs in my communion. that may have something to do with my approach to the divine. i do not see how if people are able to accept coincidence and irony as a communion why consider more direct intervention as a violation. how is it determined what is SDV and what is not. is it only SDV if it is internal communication.

myself i will discern between internal and external communication. i also differentiate between types of internal communication those which are psychic are intuitonal and those which are spiritual are the higher forms of Clear auditory and visual communications.

So the only way to succeed in this area of interest is to understand fully what SD violations actually are and de-sensitise and tolerate them comfortably.perhaps this is why i do not feel them i am happy sharing my mind.


[ this is the sort of therapy that is needed in psychiatric hospitals and out patient treatments etc. IMO]this is another of my interests an educational pursuit and something i am motivated towards because of my own experience with a poor and failing system.


If it is kept in mind the the "light" can be seen as negative [SD violation] if not wanted or understood then greater success would be possible.there is always something positive too share with people. Light does not have to be God or Love or anything Magickal. Light is nothing but illumination, it is just something that chases away the darkness it helps us to see who we are, where we have been and where we are going.

I like this . It reminds me of my attempts to desribe the nature of gravity in the physics forum. Using an Inverse sphere as the geometric nature of it.

<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/invsphere11.jpg>
that looks like a very common religious symbol. i also see how it has a gravitational representation. that is clear.

you metioned our plane being central to the planes above and below did you understadn what i meant by the centre of the circle is everywhere and the circumference is nowhere found? it is a simple metaphor for a continuum in all directions. north, south, east, west, above, below, internal, external.

would like to work this out with you as best as we can without revealing those personal subjective aspects that are not for public scrutiny.
you see for me those SDVs do not happen. i am unsure why you give them so much consideration.

It is the level or depth of my experience that makes SDV's a very important aspect of my work and existance. It is the self determination and freewill of others [ including the spirit and other dimensionals] and myself that is one of my psi specialities.
The reasons I don't air my experiences fully in public is that the truth is for most person impossible to comprehend, with out extensive contextual preparation. And it is the experience of the truth and not just the talking of the truth that is necessary. So I refain from gettng too involved in worded descriptions simply because they fail to achieve much any way and distract from the greater purpose occurng in the background.

What if telepathy is not actual voice to voice communication or communication at all? I rekon telepathy at our current time is used to send genetic imformation to others so that it can be coded. Once a certain amount of coding has been done then 2 way voice to voice communication will begin. When genetic imformation to be coded is sent to another person it intergrates as their thoughts and is indistinguishable from their own thoughts. You simply believe it was you who thought something when really it came from a burst of genetic imformation sent to you that has to be coded. By coding the genetics that someone has sent to you you actually code your own faster so it actually benefits both individuals. Theres a kinda money system to where you earn for the coding of other people that you do. This is spent on obtaining more coding to be done for yourself by others. You are of course constantly coding your own genetics all the time. Every single thought you have is actually all coding at its base. Maybe some people have already had enough genetics coded and they are able to send telepathic communications but the other person would not be able to respond as they don't have the coding done yet. I think the communication the not enough coded person would hear would just show up as there own thoughts and not be distingusiable as someone elses voice as they don't have the coding to convert the message. Also the original message from the sender is altered and changed because thats all the current coding level of the reciever is able to do with it. There are protocals TCP/IP etc just like computers. Telepathy is all about genetics. Life is all about coding genetics.

At first glance this seems to be a little how should I say it......hmmmmm....out there...hey .....but then again so is this entire thread....ha.

However the notion that thoughts can be seen as proprietry and non proprietry [ yours and someone elses] and often the distinction between the two is obscured by the day to day prattle that goes on, is quite an interestng one.

It touches upon the notion of originality and creativity. Can anything be said to be truely original? Or is what we consider original merey the adaptation of old concepts that is simply waiting to be discovered.

Thus the question: Is discovery and originality the same thing?

It is of my opinoin that each of us is a collage of everyone else that we have ever expereinced and other more sublime entities that we haven't had direct connections with.
We are but a mere mirror that evolves in what it reflects. The only thing we have proprietry over is the mirror [ our bodies ] and not what the mirror reflects.

QQ:

do you have any ideas why i do not experience SDVs?

i understand if you have nothing to say to me.

What if telepathy is not . . .
this very same post appears in "telepathy" this forum

do you have any ideas why i do not experience SDVs?

what is a SDV?

leo:
Self Determination Violation

i was going to say
spiritualy divine vision
i'm glad i didn't

QQ:

do you have any ideas why i do not experience SDVs?

i understand if you have nothing to say to me.

Possibly you have not understood fully what a SDV is?

SDV's are probably our most common generator of conflict. IT is when one person attempts to influence another to act of believe something he or she is not voluntarilly wanting to act or believe.
It is essentially when someone is being pressured to do or think something they simply do not want to do or think.

For example when a man rapes a woman she is experiencing a SDV.
When a man holds a hostage at gunpoint he is perpetrating a SDV.

When a man has plans for his wife that she is unwilling to go along with he is applying pressure that will end up in conflict.

etc etc.

In the context of our discussion:
When an telepath forces someone to listen to what he wants to say is a SDV.
When a telepath listens in on someones thoughts with out permission is also a SDV.
SDV'c can be more benevolent. When a person offers to help when he is not asked for that help, or when a person is given unwanted advice etc etc.

When a person has an ulterior motive behind a question that causes persons to feel suspicious and angry.

Basically when ever you feel an injustice, manipulation, conspiracy, or anything that impinges on your freedom to self determine your future you are experiencing a SDV.

So , obviously it is the most common feeling we get when communicating with soime one else of living in a society of diverse free thinking individuals.

The conflict between mother and 2 year old child in a supermarket [ child screaming and kicking on the floor ]
The conflict of teenagers wanting to rebel against the determination of their parents. Is a symptom of SDV's.
The need for offspring to strike out on their own in early adulthood and the angry attitudes of some of the elderly in nursing homes are all symptomatic of SDV's.

In fact every decision you make is in some way coloured by a SDV.

At a profound telepathic level it is no different except that to be telepathic in a consistantly predictable fashion is impossible due to the inherant SDV's associated. [ or so I contend with the hypothesis at the start of this thread.]

A long time ago I was of the opinion that for humanity to find peace and harmony it need to love more. What I actually realised was that it is not just love that is needed but simply more tolerance. SDV's automatically generate intolerance and are created by intolerance and the reason why they are so difficult to remove is the fact that our sense of freedom or free will is so fundamental to our exstance and we are intolerant of oppression.

Intolerance generates hatred and conflict, anger and aggression.
Tolerance generates Love and compassion, harmony and peace.

Simple equation really ...yes?
Summary:
SDV's occur at all levels of consciousness, whether telepathic or simple communications by conventional means. Even this letter I am posting will generate SDV's. [ intolerance of my opinion]

To say that you are unaffected by SDV's is I believe due to not understanding what an SDV is and I hope I have clarified that for you?

Because telepathy involves our most fundamental willed existance SDV's are a hugely important issue. Most persons suffering mental instabilities such as Schizophrenia in my opinion are showing all the symproms of hyper sensitivity to SDV's at a telepathic level. They are being bombbarded with being told what they should and shouldn't do at a subconscious level which often leads to their aggressive responses to others, even those who are attempting to help them. They are even being forced to conform to what is judged by others to be "normal" behaviour [ which leads to intolerance of "normal" behaviour]
It leads to fear based interpretations of conspiracy theories and voices etc and in extreme cases SDV inspired homicide and suicide.

I believe that when we can accept that these psi SDV's are happening we will be able to offer the right sort of support and therapies but until then we only have another SDV to offer. medication and institutionalisations.

Duendy,
i rather see it as modes of consciousneess....for example our present state is as adequate as other states, and all states are part of a dynamic continuum of potential states...
Just reading back on earlier posts and I must say I like this approach a lot. :)

Inclusivity rather than exclusivity...........hmmmmmm...

QQ, yes this is clearer, i was actually thinking baout alot of things such as those you have given as examples and i was thinking well actually there are so many things which are violations of our SD. so why does our subconscious Safety mechanism not prevent us from being influenced in other ways. why is Subliminal psychology sucesful when it is a SDV. how come suggestion becomes internalised so readily.


about 6:30 this morning i was in bed awake and i was processing the expereinces of my sleep and yesterday evening, a female told me you had nothing to say to me, "he has nothing to say to you". it was a voice that was unfamiliar, the position was to my left and below my matress, i could feel another female presence with her. i asked who she was and she left i sent a "thank you" after her. i logged into the forum about an hour and a half later and i find that you have given a very minimal response, and i understand why.

i give the above only as an example of how i come to my own understanding. perhaps so you understand yourself why i dont give SDV the same power to inhibit. obviously this is not the type of telepathy that the thread is interested in. i realise that your thread is focusing solely on the process of telepathy in an empirical way, and perahps this is why i misunderstood your SDV theory.

Duendy,

Just reading back on earlier posts and I must say I like this approach a lot. :)

Inclusivity rather than exclusivity...........hmmmmmm...
Yes....and i think the famous psychologist William James said somthing similar----about how our 'usual' consciousness' is just a ine membrane away from other dimension of consciousness----paraphrasing what i remember....But what happened is that in that field it was BEHAVIOURISM which got chosen as the general understanding of human...behaviour. whch totally treated people as machines. again, the measure-trip. looking atpeople 'objectively' and not understanding subjective feeling/inner feeling. either for the observer nor the observed

QQ, yes this is clearer, i was actually thinking baout alot of things such as those you have given as examples and i was thinking well actually there are so many things which are violations of our SD. so why does our subconscious Safety mechanism not prevent us from being influenced in other ways. why is Subliminal psychology sucesful when it is a SDV. how come suggestion becomes internalised so readily.


about 6:30 this morning i was in bed awake and i was processing the expereinces of my sleep and yesterday evening, a female told me you had nothing to say to me, "he has nothing to say to you". it was a voice that was unfamiliar, the position was to my left and below my matress, i could feel another female presence with her. i asked who she was and she left i sent a "thank you" after her. i logged into the forum about an hour and a half later and i find that you have given a very minimal response, and i understand why.

i give the above only as an example of how i come to my own understanding. perhaps so you understand yourself why i dont give SDV the same power to inhibit. obviously this is not the type of telepathy that the thread is interested in. i realise that your thread is focusing solely on the process of telepathy in an empirical way, and perahps this is why i misunderstood your SDV theory.
Ellion,
As you are aware there are many many levels of conscious experience. So far in this thread I have been attempting to address two levels, both extremes in conscious experiences. One is conventional consciousness that most persons take as a given the other is at the other extreme, our base or root consciousness if you like. [ I have no idea what terminology I should use here, although I am sure I could construct something appropriate.]

In between these two extremes are many different levels of what I would call subconsious receptability. Hypnosis is one I guess, however I am dubious of it's ultimate benefit to the client, knowing that when fiddling with the subconscious we run into all sorts of potentials for counter productive reactions and long term impacts that may not necessarilly beneficial. Subliminal messaging using high frequency visual imagery is another, all of which I would never recommend. Ultra low and high sound frequencies are also known to have various impacts and I am sure There are other sensory tricks that can be played.

I get the impression that you are seeking an answer to a question that you are hoping will be provided with out the direct asking.
Possibly I have an answer to a question you have a need to ask but can't?
And possibly you have an answer to a question, a question I have yet to discover?

Ellion,
about 6:30 this morning i was in bed awake and i was processing the expereinces of my sleep and yesterday evening, a female told me you had nothing to say to me, "he has nothing to say to you". it was a voice that was unfamiliar, the position was to my left and below my matress, i could feel another female presence with her. i asked who she was and she left i sent a "thank you" after her. i logged into the forum about an hour and a half later and i find that you have given a very minimal response, and i understand why.
To be frank, I am not at all surprised by this communication. Even though I can't put my finger on it as of now I do know the voice and the entity it belongs to. When reading your post I can hear what you heard. It is very familiar to me yet a memory that is currently blocked.

The answers you seek are not able to be given just yet.....is all I can add to the riddle.

i give the above only as an example of how i come to my own understanding. perhaps so you understand yourself why i dont give SDV the same power to inhibit. obviously this is not the type of telepathy that the thread is interested in. i realise that your thread is focusing solely on the process of telepathy in an empirical way, and perahps this is why i misunderstood your SDV theory.
Ellion, The focus of this thread is about corporal human to corporal human telepathy. Just the basic body to body stuff. Probably the hardest to deal with too I might add.
However you have mentioned willed entities by your bedside. They are also subject to SDV's. In other words if they are self willed they are ..... well....self willed thus self determined thus subject to SDV's like every other self willed entity be it spirit, animal, human, God or Godess.....

yes, i think this is where the problem is, because communication is not an violation of self determination unless it is an attempt manipulate, take control or influence against the will of the entity. this is it, communication is communication, by what ever means, and so again i am thinking about the will of the entity involved. the intention of the entity, it is the desire to posses that is the casue of the violation. not the intention to communicate but the intention to manipulate.


I get the impression that you are seeking an answer to a question that you are hoping will be provided with out the direct asking.
Possibly I have an answer to a question you have a need to ask but can't?
And possibly you have an answer to a question, a question I have yet to discover? it does feel strange, i have not figured out why yet. perhaps that we have such similar expereinces and we have such totally different perspectives of them. i dont know. it is not important to know.

Actually Duendy, You have just reminded me of another more tangible example of this entangled will pheno we are talking about.

If you can recall dancing with a partner together moving to a melody and rhythm.

When starting to dance with someone you fall into sych with that person and as most dancers know this synch is easy to break due to distractions and being over willed. [ trying too hard]

This is actually a good example of how two persons can voluntarilly entangle themsleves.

QQ:

You should really come and help ellion out in my thread, "Mental Health and the Existentialists." You may have seen it at one time, i'm sure. But I have recently had some really interesting thoughts about it and this thread (thank you ellion!). I was wondering if you could come to the thread over there. It seems like it is really just a 1 on 1 i need help thread. But it is a lot more than that. Perhaps you could tell us over there something. The thread is open to all sorts of thing, the title shows that. That is what I see relating to this thread.

I was wondering if you could do this, or something.

I understand if you don't want to....

existabrent

(I would like to give some posts here myself about it. But i'm not sure I can do that or not. thx)

I think the main thing I am worried about is all of your technical words here. I don't like the words such as: telepathy. Science.

I mean, if you could create this into a science (if this is actually the same thing i'm thinking about), I would really be interested in it. I don't know if we are thinking about the same things. I know ellion probably knows what i'm talking about.

QQ, I think you actually know me a little bit from another thread. I say this because what you may remember of me is something like mental illness, or maybe, something like what we are talking about here or in the MH&existentialists. It is all about this. I wonder what is wrong with me. Maybe I have a problem maybe I don't. Maybe it is related to this maybe it isn't.

I was wondering about how I am having problems with the word "penetrated." And does mental illness have anything to do with these? Maybe this isn't clear. I guess I just wish you to do a lot of work and go to my other thread!

lol -_-

Ellion,
The diagram I first started with a few months ago was this one:
<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/one1.jpg>
It shows that as conscious beings we are aware of time and distance however as unconscious beings time and distance do not exist.
So in essense I was proposing that we are all interconnected via a zero point dimension which we commonly refer to as unconsciousness.

So in brief, when we are in a dream less sleep we are all sharing the same unconsciousness, we become one. However when we wake up or dream we immediately determine that we are separate from each other and everything else thus the entangled state is mitigated by the emergence of awareness.

So waking up means we loose our state of oneness with everything else.
[ As an aside, this is why consciousness is a constant state of sublime sufferance]

However this interconnectedness doesn't dis-appear it is just mitigated or qualified by our subjective awareness of 3 dimensions plus time.

What this means, in breif, is that we are dealing at all times when awake with two planes of existance, one is zero dimensional and the other is 4 dimensional [ inc. time]

Our interconnectedness via this zero point allows us to have a "common" reality, one that has the same rules for every one else but also allows for us to have diversity in our subjective interpretations of that "common" reality.

So all in all we have a shared reality and yet maintain a very private one simultaneously.

In another thread I mentioned a scenario about a safe. [ the sort you store money in]
And how in it's normal state it remains unlocked but as you attempt to open it it locks itself thus dis-allowing you to gain access to it's contents. yet when left alone remains open [ temptation]

The same could be said for telepathy. Once you attempt to do it, it fails however once you relax and it happens as per nature it works, thus telepathy is unpredictable until someone can do it with out trying to do it.

"don't try to do it, just do it" Yoda said to Luke as he attempted to levitate his space ship.

So in my model it become apparent that telepathy can only be proved in hindsight and is not at present able to be mastered as an act of delberate will with any consistancy.

The questioon may come up :
"Why is it we have no proof even after so many years and so much talk?"

As part of the answer I woud reply to this with:

Take for example the discipline of strict Buddhism and how a monk would devote his entire life to achieve this zero point focuss, yet none have been able to sustain this state for longer than a few moments. To have the ability to deliberately and consstantly will a telepathic event in a predicable manner takes enormous discipline and training, much more than any human is currently capable of.

So we are left with hindsight "accidental" evidence and nothing more.




i was trying to explain this theory ages ago to someone, i have done tests and the results are actually quite interesting if you would look at this for a second please,


over a period of 2 weeks i seceretly tested 6 people, each person was unnaware of the testing 100%, i didnt tell even my partner, and for the first 2 days there was no deep R.E.M dream states with any interesting momments, i asked each person there dreams every day and wrote the results down in turn. on the 3rd night, i had a wierd dream (i wont go into it) and as i found they also all had wierd dreams, and this continued as a pattern consistant through the 2 weeks, we would all have light pleasant dreams, then a night would come when the dreams were very vivid and strange, but they always matched up.


the dreams on a whole did not have anything to do with each other, i would assume that is because everyones mind translates signals differently, but are still all bieng simultaniously effected,

we all all signal recievers it would appear, not bieng able to conciously manipulate the waves/signals but can still half interact with them via unconcious R.E.M dream state,


this is a very interesting theory and i think deserves a further investigation, also i am more concerned with the 90% of our brains we do not conciously use, this could explain alot, the unconcious has more to it than meets the eye i suppose,


i will write back about this at a later date thanks for the input and unnintentional help QQ,

peace,

i was trying to explain this theory ages ago to someone, i have done tests and the results are actually quite interesting if you would look at this for a second please,


over a period of 2 weeks i seceretly tested 6 people, each person was unnaware of the testing 100%, i didnt tell even my partner, and for the first 2 days there was no deep R.E.M dream states with any interesting momments, i asked each person there dreams every day and wrote the results down in turn. on the 3rd night, i had a wierd dream (i wont go into it) and as i found they also all had wierd dreams, and this continued as a pattern consistant through the 2 weeks, we would all have light pleasant dreams, then a night would come when the dreams were very vivid and strange, but they always matched up.


the dreams on a whole did not have anything to do with each other, i would assume that is because everyones mind translates signals differently, but are still all bieng simultaniously effected,

we all all signal recievers it would appear, not bieng able to conciously manipulate the waves/signals but can still half interact with them via unconcious R.E.M dream state,


this is a very interesting theory and i think deserves a further investigation, also i am more concerned with the 90% of our brains we do not conciously use, this could explain alot, the unconcious has more to it than meets the eye i suppose,


i will write back about this at a later date thanks for the input and unnintentional help QQ,

peace,


Che,
Very interesting, thanks for posting your experimental experineces with dreams.

I too have had some incredible experiences with dreams and dreaming. I have some theories that may be of interest but what I wanted to ask is the question that I asked a few years ago:
If you dream a dream that involves someone else do they dream the same dream from their perspective?

I have had dreams where by I am very aware that the other person in that dream is also aware that I am aware etc. A rather strange sense that is I can assure you.

At this stage though I have no anecdotal evidence to support the experience.

The other thing is: We IMO, are always dreaming whether awake or asleep. Most of what we dream is beneath our conscious perception and normally occurs unnoticed in the background of our thoughts. [ seeing that dream is one thing... being that dream is another]
When talking with persons suffering severe post traumatic stress disorder they often coment on the dream like state they appear to be in, that vivid flashes of past recognition occur as the nightmare of their experience is being slowly reconciled in their subconscious mind. Maybe some would consider this as just thinking but I tend to consider it as dreaming.

Every thing I have seen, researched and experienced supports the hypothesis of zero point entanglement whilst allowing for the external sensing to interfere, alter or temper the inner experience.

interesting,

i have though about dreams alot over the years and done various tests, i also go into deep meditation trying to mimic dream state while still conscious, i havent quite got there yet but im making good proggress, i have lucid dreams from time to time wich is the most interesng experience i have had, it feels more real than real life if you know what i mean?,

i have come to think that dreaming dosent just show your inner mind, and just simply translate past/present problems/lusts/desires etc, its a unconscious matrix if you like, linking us to a single conscious but as we all have different mapped out minds and brain waves built into us, as unique as a pair of eyes or fignerprint, this means we obviously will pick up the "transmission" differently but feeling the same raw emotions nonetheless,



would you like to conduct a long range experiment with me QQ?, for the next 2 weeks jot down your dreams, we wont concerntrate on the situations or events int he dreams, just concerntrate ont he emotions picked up, and we can compare notes , just date it obviously day by day a little paragraph for each night couple sentances,


it will be interesting to see if it applies to a global level, if more people would take part it could be interesting stuff,



or do it on a shorter scale or longer.


peace,

I shall give it some thought. For me however it may interfere with my current disciplines and I have always been a little reluctant to work too much on dreams and dream states. As I have stated in other threads over the years I feel that dreams are an integeral part of our ongoing mental health and need to flow as uninhibited as possible by expectations and desires of the conscious will.
But I will consider it and get back to you.....and I thank you for the offer.

I shall give it some thought. For me however it may interfere with my current disciplines and I have always been a little reluctant to work too much on dreams and dream states. As I have stated in other threads over the years I feel that dreams are an integeral part of our ongoing mental health and need to flow as uninhibited as possible by expectations and desires of the conscious will.
But I will consider it and get back to you.....and I thank you for the offer.


understood, and no problem.

i have thought about anouther theory that is connected to the unconcsious but not while sleeping, this is during the waking hours, while about your daily buisness when you innteract with other people,

a telepathic connection maybe is best to put it, but not sending direct words but raw emotions through waves of some kind, and this is the explanation to attention seeking possibly, and the underlying reasons behindn why people crave attention subconcsiously,

it might be due to this, when people have there attention focused on anouther person they could be connecting on a sub level, while this sub connection is linked due to both peoples focused mind state, it could make the person feel good, maybe feeding there physical ego and location, also stimulating the one concious with links from the other raw unconscious,


so the more people focused on your link the more emotional signals run through your body and mind,




i will go further into this, at a later point after some replies,


also when you are with somebody and then they start doing something else, (disconnecting from the attention link with your mind) you notice it emotionaly dont you, then you crave the attention to be back and try to seek the attention,


peace.

QQ
i was reading a book written in 1888 by hp blavatsky the secret doctine, you may have heard of it. there are versions of the work available online. anyway i came across the phrase ZERO POINT it was inconnection with the egos crossing from personal to impersonal consciousness.

i of course made the connection between your theory and the Zero point in the book and i googled the phrase Zero point, i found this.

http://www.zeropoint.ca/

thought you may like to browse i have not gotten into it yet probaly wont because i have too many other things going

QQ
i was reading a book written in 1888 by hp blavatsky the secret doctine, you may have heard of it. there are versions of the work available online. anyway i came across the phrase ZERO POINT it was inconnection with the egos crossing from personal to impersonal consciousness.

i of course made the connection between your theory and the Zero point in the book and i googled the phrase Zero point, i found this.

http://www.zeropoint.ca/

thought you may like to browse i have not gotten into it yet probaly wont because i have too many other things going

Interesting. My grandmother was a great fan of Blavatsky's work. My grandmother was a strong member of the Theosophical Society that Blavatsky's work inspired into existence.
Here in Melbourne Australia we have a branch with book shop. The Secret Doctrine written by Blavatsky is central to the societies function.
I myself have never even glanced inside it as I found the whole massive work to be rather huge challenge. I am not sure but it must be at least the size of a medium sized encyclopaedia. 8 Books in all I think..not sure though.

I would not be at all surprised if there were similarities between what she has offered and what I am offerring in regards to zero point. Of course the truth is the truth no matter who talks it. So it would be expected that persons would all end up at the same point of truth even if they come at it from different perspectives. Still the same truth afterall.

I believe that if you can handle the sophisticated language that she uses through-out her work, The Secret Doctrine should be a facinating read.
Thanks for the reference, rather serendipitious too I feel.

the theospohical society have an online library where all blavatsky's work is available.


http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/tup-onl.htm

an extensive range of works. i would advise to be selective though not all where as well gounded as blavatsky. The Secret Doctrine would make very little sense to anyone who has not a had a grounding in east and west religious thought and some familairity with the deities of all the major religions. this work is to unveil the symbolism and to reveal the powers and principles that are personified by these deities.

OK, I have done little reading, and to be frank I am not overly impressed. The work is extremely heavy going and I simply find it to labourous to get into.

I am not too happy about the symbology and feel to much emphasis is placed in areas that offer no real benefit to the reader.

However this is my humble opinion and I do not wish to put people off from at least attemptng to get into it.

Blavatsky was a charlatan, and her beliefs are racist!
QQ , i misseed tat post bove about dancing synchronicity.........entnalgment. i like that cause i love dancing so can resonate withat metaphor

also couple whove lived to gther for years can form a kind of telepathy too

you talk shit. blavatsky owns. what's racist about her beliefs? you can't handle the truth. you take too much drugs.

I have a hypothesis as to the physical or material nature of telepathy, that involve physics yet to be understood. Involving the nature of time and distance, dimensionality and the illusion of 3 dimensional space.

However at present this understanding is way ahead of us and when finally understood a uniform theory of everything [TOE] would be achieved.

In other threads I have posted a diagram just to wet the appetite as to the mechanics of universal consciousness and I shall post it again here just as a matter of curiosity.

<img src=http://www.ozziesnaps.com/Ozziewebworkings/higs.gif>

The diagram refers to zero dimensionalism that is common to every thing that exists. That everything is in a zero distance and time relationship via a zero point [ nothing ness] as with particle entanglement [QM] we all share an entangled relationship.

However as we are self animated we break or more precisely mitigate that entanglement as soon as we are aware of it. Usually Fear and a conflict of interest causes the entanglement [ telepathic relationship ] to become broken [ altered ] as we automatically attempt to effect the entangled person once we are aware of that relationship at this level. Thus telepathy or more precisely the telepathic relationship, can only be proved in hindsight and not predicted.

One thing that seems to be confused is that telepathy invloves the instincts of at least two people but in absolute it involves the instincts of every thing that has them universally. So as I suggested earlier it is impossible to read a persons mind if their instincts prevent you from doing so. A bit like farting in a crowded elevator and pretending it aint you that done it. You hide your complicity mentally and physically thus no one in the elevator can determine the source of the dreadful smell.

Summary:
Telepathy can only be proven in hindsight and is currently unpredictive. Simply because awareness of a conscious attempt immediately causes the entanglement to be broken [ see particle entanglement in QM]

As yet it has proven almost impossible to shield two persons from ouside instinctive interference.

OK, so we have a hypothesis as to why it has proven to be impossible to demonstrate predictive telepathy.

And as hindsight proof is deemed unacceptable to science we have an impasse as to the validity of the notion.
Science requires predictability which by nature requires fore-sight and as explained this is impossible given the current state of instinctive fear based responses.

However the big philosophical question is:
Does the lack of predictability make the hindsight evidence invalid?

I was wondernig where I can find your zero point theory. If it is in the first post.

And also on a personal, was wondering if you don't mind me posting....

I find it very interesting, just what interests me most is if this is universal ie for everyone, at all times sort of "truth",
thanks

Also, what is "telepathy", sorry i'm confused

What is QM? (again personally, what have changed via me belief)
:)qq

I do not believe instincts cause a stop of the telepathic encounter (the farting example);

Blavatsky was a charlatan, and her beliefs are racist!
QQ , i misseed tat post bove about dancing synchronicity.........entnalgment. i like that cause i love dancing so can resonate withat metaphor

also couple whove lived to gther for years can form a kind of telepathy too

You know I tend to think of it as more than just a metaphor.

Maybe you can remember the expereince of dancing [ say a slow romantic shuffle] with someone and in your case as a woman you find yourself in a tight little battle of the wills that eventually leads to the stopping of the dance to reset who is leading and who is following. And how sometimes the dancing must stop all together because the lead issue can not be resolved.

To me this is an entanglement issue.

As to long term relationships there is no doubt that a form of telepathic agreement can develop, how many times have you heard old couples ssay that "she gets her way some of the time and I get my way some of the time" as they express how they managed to stay together for so long. If you read carefully you can see that they have reached an intuitive agreement about who is leading at any given time. Usually it is the man who jokes and complains that the missus is the boss no matter what it looks like....ha

So I ask is it a key to successful relationships that both parties know when to defer their wills to the other and when not to?

In the context of zero point relationships this makes perfect sense to me because if not conflict will always be the outcome. Two people attempting to lead the other and the other always rejecting that lead. Causes the dancing to be very dischordant if not impossible.