The last weeks have seen a massive media propaganda blitz on the World about the Lebanese Cedar Revolution . Todays massive show up of Lebanese Pro-Syrian sentiment has exposed this American fraud for what it was an exercise in propaganda .
1.5 Million pro-Syria demonstrators gather in Beirut
Following a nationwide call by the head of Hezbollah for a pro-Syria demonstration, 1.5 million demonstrators gathered in a central Beirut square Tuesday to counter weeks of massive rallies demanding Syrian forces leave Lebanon.
http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=7326
So much so that Lebanon will revert back to what it was before the US caused this trouble .
Lebanon May Reinstate Pro-Syria PM
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050309/D88NJRRO1.html
Why has Americas plan been thwarted ? The EU was the catalyst behind that to make sure Syria did everything America asked of it thereby frustrating American provocations . That EU policy is evidenced by unexplained interdiction of uninvited French diplomatic manouveurs in Syria . Watch now as this fake Lebanese Cedar Revolution disappears from the propaganda medium .

I watched some Lebanese interviews with the supposed pro syrian demonstators yesterday. Everyone they interviewed were Syrians even the placards they were carrying were printed in syria. :D How exactly is this a lesson in US deception? Brian you have some good points at times, you shouldn't let your bias make you gullible.

but on what channel did you watch this, its just like those ques of people you are shown lining up to get back into occupied areas of iraq, only one side is shown, they dont show you the yanks paying people $200 to stand in line for the film crew, or the other 1.5million people who were actually from lebanon

Syria is the one with that kind of influence (literally tens of thousands of people on the ground) and clout in lebanon not the US. It was on our local norwegian news.

Path dont you see the irony though when Bush says that a true election cant be held in Lebanon with foreign troops on thier soil yet he boasts about the Iraqi election being one of his greatest accomplishments?

Path dont you see the irony though when Bush says that a true election cant be held in Lebanon with foreign troops on thier soil yet he boasts about the Iraqi election being one of his greatest accomplishments?

Sure I see it but that is not what I am referring to. On a side note, I say kudos to the iraqis for not choosing a pro-US govt. :cool: I am sure you are as anti-occupation when it comes to Lebanon as you are when it comes to iraq. :m:

you have 1.5 million Syrian workers in Lebanon,
you got the Syrian military and the secret services,
you got virtual Syrian control of the country,

obviously you can organize something like a pro-Syria demonstration

oh yeah, you also have Hizballah bussing people in from different towns.
with signs like "Lebanon and Syria brothers forever" and "Lebanon and Syria one hand" sounds like a Syrian point of view... or propaganda slogans inventd in the Syrian Ministry of Information to legitimize their occupation.

i've spoken to young Lebanese people here in Toronto - they hate the Syrians (at least those i spoke to)

this 500,000 ppl demonstration (not 1.5 million like Brian said) reminds me of the Red Square demonstrations in Russia. we didn't live in Moscow but we had similar demonstrations in Leningrad. my dad told me about that, how at work everybody was incouraged to go, and if you didn't go you could've had problems - so you went like a good boy, carried that sign, and shouted that pro-government slogan. people in the West don't even realize what it's like.

once there are elections in Syria with:
a) independent vote counters
b) no intimidation from Syria
c) no intimidation by Hizballah (who is Syria's extention of control in Lebanon)
d) only the Lebanese vote, none of those 1,500,000 Syrians vote

then the result can only be one: the demand to kick the Syrian leech outta there.

The only thing I find amusing about the U.S. and Syria is how Syria is wanting to do some of the things the U.S. asks but then of course we say "But that's not good enough". Basically the same that happened with Iraq. If they do as we say, oh crap it's ruining our plans, so we'll just say they're not doing good enough so we get to still invade them anyways.

- N

so you keep saying "you're not doing enough" until you get them to do whatever it is you want them to do. in this case, remove Syrian influence from Lebanon, which means removing Iranian influence over Lebanon, and a significant weakening of Hizballah. which translates into a democratic Lebanon, which translates into a calmer Middle East.

by the way, in 1983 Lebanon and Israel signed a peace treaty which was immediately annulled by Syria. with Syria gone, Israel and Lebanon can have a chance at peace again.

another thing, the PA and Israeli gov't have been saying for the past few months that the money and weapons that "Palestinian" terrorists have been using came from Hizballah. once again -- Syria out = weaker Hizballah = weaker connection between the "Palestinian" terrorist groups in Damascus and in the "West Bank" and Gaza

Everyone they interviewed were Syrians
Oh I see all 1.5 million protestors came from Syria and you just believe that . Has it dawned on you Syrians and lebanese are the same people who speak the same language .
even the placards they were carrying were printed in syria.
And most of the placards the Cedar Revolutionists carried were suspiciouslyb written in English care to explain that one .
:D How exactly is this a lesson in US deception? Brian you have some good points at times, you shouldn't let your bias make you gullible.
Simple just read how I ended my post .
Watch now as this fake Lebanese Cedar Revolution disappears from the propaganda medium .
Read any stories today about Lebanons American invented Cedar revolution ? see what I mean its just a propaganda mirage .

America is always a good scapegoat for all the ills of the world.
If we were powerful enough to cause everything we are accused of, you should worship us as there would be no hope.

1.5 Million Pro-Syrian?? wow, here it was only listed as 500,000. Being that everyone is Lebanon is sooooooo pro-bush its easy to see how that figure was distorted.

Actually Brian, racial qualities in Lebennon are rather ambigous.

Anyway, check out this weeks TIME (it's in the international version . . . not too sure about the Canadian or US one) adn there's an interview with Assad. He comes across as an insecure little man who'd be much happier practicing as a doctor (which he in fact is). Furthermore, I think that the media is playing on a lot of hopes of people . . . I doubt that politicians (American or otherwise) are really ready to commit fully to Lebennon.

a doctor (which he in fact is)

his doctorate is one of those doctorates that universities bestow upon celebrities. like Bobby McFarren got a Ph.D. in music from a German university.

Assad got his from a Russian university

The Lebanese demostrations were large but did not number 1.5 million as al-jazeera claims. This would not be the first bad reporting by that source, considering a few months ago they declared Abu Musab al-Zarqawi captured in front page headlines. Realistic numbers indicate in reality about 500,000 were in attendence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16165-2005Mar8.html

"Lebanese officials said 1.6 million people attended the rally, but more conservative estimates placed the number at roughly 500,000. Christian, Druze and Sunni parties were represented, but the crowd appeared to consist mostly of followers of Hezbollah and Amal, the second-largest Shiite party"

Al- Jazeera simply took the word of Shiite Lebanese officials, rather than attempt to guess the number themselves. The majority of those in attendence were also made of Shiites supported by Hezbollah, who in turn are supported by Iran. Considering Iran pours in 10-20 million a year in support of Hezbollah, it is not surprising they organized this rally.

The reason Hezbollah created this rally is not the fear of Syrian withdrawal, but of a proposal to disarm. Without violence in Lebanon, Hezbollah no longer has a purpose, and to disarm would mean to give up their power. The majority of Lebanese do indeed want Syria to withdraw, but they also do not want it accomplished through foreign pressure or from the U.N.

"In a Zogby poll of 1,250 Lebanese conducted in November, 58 percent of those surveyed said they opposed the U.N. resolution, engineered by the United States and France. Nearly half also said Syrian-Lebanese relations needed "improvement or restructuring outside American and French interventions" -- a message that resounded Tuesday in chants and speeches throughout downtown Beirut. "

Not surprising from a nation that has been destroyed from outside influences.

Actually Brian, racial qualities in Lebennon are rather ambigous.
No they are distinct enough that Syria claims Lebanon on historical , lingistic , cultuarl and racial grounds and the majority of Lebanese identify with the Syrian culture .
Anyway, check out this weeks TIME (it's in the international version . . .
Im supposed to take what TIME says a truth ? A magazine that named hitler as man of the year , covered up US atrocities in Vietnam and El Salvador !
He comes across as an insecure little man who'd be much happier practicing as a doctor (which he in fact is). Furthermore, I think that the media is playing on a lot of hopes of people . . . I doubt that politicians (American or otherwise) are really ready to commit fully to Lebennon.
That is the image the US media now wishes to portray of Assad , last year he was portrayed as a megalomaniac in league with the satanist Iranians . It is obvious Americas belligerent plan of military action against Syria has fallen flat and is now downplaying the situation . And on instruction the obedient American public will comply with their propaganda ministrie's new diktat .

No Brian, like everything else you take it with a grain of salt.

As an aside, Hitler was the obvious choice for TIME's man of the year. The criteria for the title is the one who causes the most news, which Hitler did. I would argue that 2001's man of the year ought to have been Osama Bin Laden, given that he caused the news.

Anyway, the story was written by the Jerusalem beraeu chief. Of course there is a spin on it. But is TIME taking diktats from the US government? Hyperbole.

otheadp - intresting. Do you by any chance know which one?

Holy cow these meddling yanks are at it again :p

Hundreds of thousands of people have gathered for an opposition rally in Beirut, a month after the killing of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4346613.stm)

Holy cow these meddling yanks are at it again :p


The initial estimates are from 1.3 to 2 million :D

Why shouldn't the US try to depose the leadership in Syria, its a tyrannical regime, that imposes its will on the people of the country without their consent. Its a threat not only to itself but the region, and to American interests. Enough talking its time to take out the garbage.

Why shouldn't the US try to depose the leadership in Syria, its a tyrannical regime, that imposes its will on the people of the country without their consent. Its a threat not only to itself but the region, and to American interests. Enough talking its time to take out the garbage.

Because the whole Syrian regime will collapse when it cant rape Lebanon of its resources and when the billions of drug money it makes from the Bekka Valley drys up.....Get Syria out of Lebanon and Syria will fall all on its own.....

I doubt that will happen, Syria will still retain massive amounts of military might in the region disporportionate to its economic size, and the regime will tighten its grip on power. Hopefully the people of Syria will break free on their own accord but the United States can tolerate such blatant abuse of basic human rights for so long, America has a new mission and that is to spread freedom to the people of the world, and the Syrian people are desperate for it. Hopefully the regime will fall on its own accord, but if push comes to shove America has the will, the might, and the right to do what it wants to protect people, and American interets.

The only internationalist thing about you is your bullshit. "freedom" "freedom" "freedom" dont even get me started about FREEDOM, if the people didnt like the regime they would rebel. America gives less than shit about freeing people or riding people of a dictatorship, I didnt see america telling pinochete to stop, or complain about Boris Yelsin and his huge term in office. How about you take freedom and jam it up Uncle sam's ass because people sertainly dont need it where you guys are looking, My friend and his family live in syria they like it and they like their way of life.

Who is going to protect America from it's own tyranny and abuse of human rights?

The only internationalist thing about you is your bullshit. "freedom" "freedom" "freedom" dont even get me started about FREEDOM, if the people didnt like the regime they would rebel. America gives less than shit about freeing people or riding people of a dictatorship, I didnt see america telling pinochete to stop, or complain about Boris Yelsin and his huge term in office. How about you take freedom and jam it up Uncle sam's ass because people sertainly dont need it where you guys are looking, My friend and his family live in syria they like it and they like their way of life.

What does this administration have to do with Pinochet or Boris Yeltsin??Its quite annoying for people to make a point and use other administrations goals when making comparisons.Its funny but Bush is doing the exact opposite of the failed policies of the past that you complain about and yet you still complain..Most people I speak to from the Middle East all say we dont do enough for them and thats the truth..Appeasing dictators for stability in the region is a failed policy as we saw on 9/11 as hatred festers under these failed regimes and produces maniacs lashing out at everyone else.Spreading Democracy is a lofty goal and should be encouraged as in Lebanon and if Syria crumbles because of it then thats even better..

Um america is not spreading democracy, neither is the administration concerned with spreading democracy (as the past ones havent been) thats why i used the two bastards as examples to show america has never cared, and bush is a damn good example of failed politics as his soul intrest is becoming rich.

Who is going to protect America from it's own tyranny and abuse of human rights?


You act as if human rights abuses is strictly an American problem....

http://www.breakingnews.ie/printer.asp?j=2242530&p=zz4z545

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/11/23/un_probing_charges_of_sex_abuse_by_staff/?rss_id=Boston%20Globe%20--%20World%20News


http://www.oz.net/~vvawai/sw/sw35/Somalia.html

Um america is not spreading democracy,

They arent??I would say 18 million people voting for the first time throws a wrench in that theory..... ;)




neither is the administration concerned with spreading democracy

Actually I think thats exactly what they are doing..Destabalizing the whole region is brilliant as a stable Middle East has brought us nothing but us and the people there agony..



(as the past ones havent been) thats why i used the two bastards as examples to show america has never cared,

Like I said every administration has different goals so I dont buy that because prior admins didnt care about democracy that future ones should be held to that because of them.......


( and bush is a damn good example of failed politics as his soul intrest is becoming rich.,

Im still trying to figure out what his failed politics are as he just set off a shit storm through the Middle East and it seems like everybodies catching on... ;) I guess better late than never though... :)

Internationalist
"Why shouldn't the US try to depose the leadership in Syria, its a tyrannical regime, that imposes its will on the people of the country without their consent."

dont you see the conflict in that statment?

ok i will show it to you

"Why shouldn't China try to depose the leadership in the US, its a tyrannical regime, that imposes its will on the people of the country without their consent."

OMG the statement still fits. YOUR imposing your will on a people without there consent and thats why the world is fed up with you

let me add one note

was it the people of vietnarm or there courpt goverment that wanted you there? The goverment because the people hated you enough to kill 1000's

was it the people of iraq that wanted you to give them sadam? WRONG

was it the people of iraq that wanted you to start bombing them? NOPE, thats why they are surporting your enermys

any other wars where the "good guy" has been hated?

was it the people of iraq that wanted you to start bombing them? NOPE, thats why they are surporting your enermys

any other wars where the "good guy" has been hated?

Actually if the US handled security better there would have been far less problems as were starting to see Iraqis lash out at the real thugs.....

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050314/ts_nm/iraq_dc_13

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Thousands of Iraqi Shi'ites protested Monday after hearing reports that relatives of a Jordanian suicide bomber suspected of killing 125 people in the town of Hilla celebrated him as a martyr.

As for if they wanted us to start bombing the majority has always said yes.....Most our problems stem from the occupation and the security situation and not the war itself...And if I were a Sunni and lost all my power I would be upset as well but thats the way it is sometimes... ;)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/28/iraq.poll/

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Nearly half the Iraqis polled in a survey conducted primarily in March and early April said they believed the U.S.-led war had done more harm than good, but 61 percent of respondents said Saddam Hussein's ouster made it worth any hardships.

The initial estimates are from 1.3 to 2 million :D

How many truckfuls of CIA agents does that make? ;)

the majority have always said yes have they???????

thats a bit aragent isnt it?

did bill clinton poll afganistan before launching missile atacks?

did GWB ask everyone in afganistan before HE invaded it?

what about iraq?

or lets go back

(quote from Golgo 13 ) Sept. 11, 1973, when the CIA overthrew Allende's democratically elected government in Chile and replaced him with the murderous despot Pinochet.

Vietnarm did you poll the people then?

How about cambodia? where the spill over from vietnarm alowed one of historys worst dictators to take over SIMPLY BECAUSE THE AMERICANS WERE FIGHTING THERE

where else have you asked the majoritys permission to fight?

hell do you EVER ask the majority of mexio before launching assults on there soil?

How about cuba? That was a good lession in american hipocrasy, You put Nukes all over your country and other countrys but when one on your doorsteep asks for some protection from another country you invade them

have you ever asked ANYONES permission to "help" (ie invade and blow up civillans) them? or do you just go into a place and ASSUME that the people there will like you and accept your solders walking all over the place?

I can hear you right now saying "but civillan deaths are accidents", if i rember american law correctly then an acidental death which happens due to a crime is conciders muder 1 isnt it? So why shouldnt they blame you like it was your fault? If you hadnt been there they wouldnt have died

Person 1: Do you believe in democracy?
Person 2: No.
Person 1: Fine. Then why should you have a say in the matter?

the majority have always said yes have they???????

thats a bit aragent isnt it?

Why is pointing out that almost 65% of Iraqis believe the war,despite its hardships,was worth it to get rid of Saddam Hussein arrogant??

did bill clinton poll afganistan before launching missile atacks?

Bill Clinton should have invaded Afghanistan after the 2 embassy bombings and the Cole bombing instead of launching missiles at camels and dirt..

did GWB ask everyone in afganistan before HE invaded it?

He didnt have to but what does this have to do with a majority of Iraqis saying the war was worth it??

what about iraq?

I already gave you the poll but do you need others???



(quote from Golgo 13 ) Sept. 11, 1973, when the CIA overthrew Allende's democratically elected government in Chile and replaced him with the murderous despot Pinochet.

Thank god for that as Chile and the majority of Latin American countries where we intervened in are far better off today than they ever were thanks to US policy at the time........And if you dont want to use the context of the Cold War then I cant help you but you should be perking up at the fact that the CIAs involvement is well known while the Russian and Cuba still fail to detail their involvement in Chile..........Why is that????




Vietnarm did you poll the people then?

Dont remind me of Frances mess...And when I traveled to Vietnam some years back most asked why we left..That was the real tragedy of Vietnam....



How about cambodia? where the spill over from vietnarm alowed one of historys worst dictators to take over SIMPLY BECAUSE THE AMERICANS WERE FIGHTING THERE

Dont blame me..Im a Republican who would have loved to see Vietnam finished until the end...........

where else have you asked the majoritys permission to fight?

Again what does this have to do with Iraq???Your deliberately avoiding the poll about Iraqis who supported the war to remove Saddam and asking 600 other questions that have no relevance to what were discussing.....



How about cuba? That was a good lession in american hipocrasy, You put Nukes all over your country and other countrys but when one on your doorsteep asks for some protection from another country you invade them

Cuba is a shithole which was once a blossoming nation......Blame Communism....





I can hear you right now saying "but civillan deaths are accidents",

They are....If you cant seperate a car accident from intentionally cutting someones head off then I cant help you.........

if i rember american law correctly then an acidental death which happens due to a crime is conciders muder 1 isnt it?

Whats the crime????

If you hadnt been there they wouldnt have died

How do you know???You act as if Iraq was Disneyland prior to America liberating her..........

How many truckfuls of CIA agents does that make? ;)

Alot :p

look asphalt do you personally (not the goverment YOU) really want to help those people? Honestly?

because peace has NEVER come from a war, look at history. WW1 just led to WW2. WW2 killed off the Nazis but caused the cold war and look how many wars were in that? Its a simple fact that you cant bring peace by invading somewhere and in the last 100 years i dont think that ANY occupying force has EVER won, the populas dont like being occupied

Oh and B\W

the crime is illegally invading a country, something that has been a war crime since WW2

What does this administration have to do with Pinochet.... Its quite annoying for people to make a point and use other administrations goals when making comparisons. Its funny but Bush is doing the exact opposite of the failed policies of the past that you complain about and yet you still complain........Spreading Democracy is a lofty goal and should be encouraged as in Lebanon and if Syria crumbles because of it then thats even better..

You believe the Administrations words. During the entire fifty years of the USA toppling democracies and propping up dictators the USA never stopped talking about freedom and democracy.

Rumsfeld was close to the Pinochet coup. Bush has surrounded himself with the people who did not believe in democracy. Bush Toppled a democracy in Haiti. There has been much disinformation about Haiti but the truth is that Afghanistan is still far away from reaching the level of democracy that Haiti had. As sure as OJ killed his wife the US taxpayers were the source of the Haitian "rebels" weapons, helicopters and salaries.

The Bush administration has been caught in many lies (even if the media won't make the appropriate stink about that); so why should we believe him now when he talks about democracy. The truth about Iraq and Afghanistan will have to speak for Bush's love of democracy and their message is not clear. Iraq got to vote because Sistani was going to put the Shiites into the insurgency if Bush postponed the vote.

Bush can not yet be counted as a supporter of Democracy.

look asphalt do you personally (not the goverment YOU) really want to help those people? Honestly?

Absolutely.............





because peace has NEVER come from a war,

Maybe peace for the US has never came as it probably never will with totalitarian regimes being in our sights but it has brought peace to nations like Germany,Japan,South Korea,Italy and a host of other places that have benefited from war..Are you telling me those nations arent far better off today because of Americas interventions???Are those countries not at peace??


look at history. WW1 just led to WW2. WW2 killed off the Nazis but caused the cold war and look how many wars were in that?

Your mistaken..Wars have brought peace to those nations if not necessarily the United States but thats expected with totalitarian nightmares in this world and our responsibilty to destroy them...



Its a simple fact that you cant bring peace by invading somewhere and in the last 100 years i dont think that ANY occupying force has EVER won, the populas dont like being occupied

The last 100 years??Was the occupation of Germany and Japan that long ago??? ;) And if I can get anything like Germany or Japan popped up in the Middle East then it was well worth it....

The only internationalist thing about you is your bullshit. "freedom" "freedom" "freedom" dont even get me started about FREEDOM,

And I won't because you live in a free society, you know how its like to be free. You've never been deprived of your freedom, so to you of course Freedom is nothing more then a abstraction but to millions its something they are wiling to die for.

if the people didnt like the regime they would rebel.

They can rebel all they want, as long as the military is on the side of the government their calls will largely be supressed.

How about you take freedom and jam it up Uncle sam's ass because people sertainly dont need it where you guys are looking, My friend and his family live in syria they like it and they like their way of life.

I don't question people are lead to believe they live a good life, but when you compare anything to shit it always looks good. Tell them to live in America for a while, or another liberal country and then ask them how much they love their life?

"Why shouldn't China try to depose the leadership in the US, its a tyrannical regime, that imposes its will on the people of the country without their consent."

OMG the statement still fits. YOUR imposing your will on a people without there consent and thats why the world is fed up with you

The will of America is a will that people want, its a way of life people want. If people didn't want it why would they flock to our shores for refuge? Why would they look to America for assistance above any other nation? Liberalism is the only ideology that can fit to every culture because the only pre-req is respect, why shouldn't we give the people the right to choose?

internationalist I will attack your very ideology... have you ever been deprived of your so called freedom? have you lived in a non free society? no you havent therefore you cant know that a non free society exists.. its only a figment of propoganda what one finds s+hit the otherone enjoys.. it all depends on how you grew up... my grandparents loved stalinist russia... and always complain.. with which i dont agree.. but they liked it more so... i respect thair opinion and dont try to invade their mind and change their regeime. as for rebellion.. there hasnt been one.. so the people are content.. if they had rebelled it would be time ot help them but... sorry they havent.

Oh god man... I lived in the soviet union which was considered non free by america at the time and still is... Then I lived in america... I wil ltell you that I enjoyed the soviet union alot more.

Person 1: Do you believe in democracy?
Person 2: No.
Person 1: Fine. Then why should you have a say in the matter?

Democracy is an illusion. It may have started out with good intentions but it has been molded, twisted and corrupted to the point that it is barely recognizable. Do you actually believe you have a say in the government? Democracy is just like every other form of government save the fact that it is a bit more hypocritical. The government and especially the idiot in the white house don't care about you. All they care about is remaining popular to get re-elected. The election process itself is severely flawed. Why should your vote count when you have electorial idiots to decide what you need in a leader. There have been to my knowlege three times in which the electorial vote did not match that of the popular vote, the last one being redneck idiot extraordinaire, George W. Bush. So where does it seem that the people's vote counts? In closing I shall leave with a quote from Queen Juliana. "The Constitution need not be more than a toy in the hands of the people, so that they enjoy the illusion of freedom, whereas in reality we knead them as circumstances shall require."

What form of government do you suggest?

Democracy is an illusion. It may have started out with good intentions but it has been molded, twisted and corrupted to the point that it is barely recognizable. Do you actually believe you have a say in the government? Democracy is just like every other form of government save the fact that it is a bit more hypocritical. The government and especially the idiot in the white house don't care about you. All they care about is remaining popular to get re-elected. The election process itself is severely flawed. Why should your vote count when you have electorial idiots to decide what you need in a leader. There have been to my knowlege three times in which the electorial vote did not match that of the popular vote, the last one being redneck idiot extraordinaire, George W. Bush. So where does it seem that the people's vote counts? In closing I shall leave with a quote from Queen Juliana. "The Constitution need not be more than a toy in the hands of the people, so that they enjoy the illusion of freedom, whereas in reality we knead them as circumstances shall require."

Well said! I couldn't have put it any better.


What form of government do you suggest?

Dictatorship. And I'm the dictator (no one is more fit to lead than ME!)

Dictatorship. And I'm the dictator (no one is more fit to lead than ME!)


Oh yeah, now that'll work! :bugeye:

"I wil ltell you that I enjoyed the soviet union alot more. ",Odin'Izm

The fact that you have even attempted to make such a statement shows that you never lived in the Soviet Union. Did you enjoy having nothing? Did you enjoy watching people who were connected to the party have everything while you lived with nothing? You should ask my wife, or any of her family, or anyone in the town were she came from what it was like to live under Communist Russia. Not one of those people you ask would say it was good.

They had a choice to live in three styles of houses in the town she came from (of course, unless you were connected, you could live in a huge house). You would build the house yourself, and wait in line for days at a time to get materials. When you did get materials, the would not even match.

My wife did not see a banana until she was eight, and she thought it was made of wax when she was introduced to it. You have to be kidding right?

I'll make this quick as this is my fifth attempt to post this response so I may elaborate tomorrow if I'm able. I think that the philosopher king is a good idea. A philosopher monarch would be deeper and less likely to make rash decisions. I am a rather Global person. I consider myself a citizen of the planet earth and tend to look at the world with a wide angle lense. I think it better to see the entire picture as the background is blurred if you zoom in with a telephoto lense. I think that there should be a strong and effective central government for the world composed of a single representative from every nation to make and enforce rules that would be acceptable to most everyone. They should do this by examining every form of govt. disecting them and being rid of the useless rubbish, and combine the remainder into a single form of government that should be fair and equally benefitial. This central government should also be strong enough to enforce the rules between nations in a fair and just manner.

"I wil ltell you that I enjoyed the soviet union alot more. ",Odin'Izm

The fact that you have even attempted to make such a statement shows that you never lived in the Soviet Union. Did you enjoy having nothing? Did you enjoy watching people who were connected to the party have everything while you lived with nothing? You should ask my wife, or any of her family, or anyone in the town were she came from what it was like to live under Communist Russia. Not one of those people you ask would say it was good.

They had a choice to live in three styles of houses in the town she came from (of course, unless you were connected, you could live in a huge house). You would build the house yourself, and wait in line for days at a time to get materials. When you did get materials, the would not even match.

My wife did not see a banana until she was eight, and she thought it was made of wax when she was introduced to it. You have to be kidding right?


Ye the fact is I enjoyed it, but unlike your wife I lived in the moscow area which to this day differs greatly to the rest of russia. AND I DID NOT SAY OBJECTIVLY THAT ALL RUSSIANS ENJOYED IT I SAID I DID

"The fact that you have even attempted to make such a statement shows that you never lived in the Soviet Union."

well surprise surprise I did... maybe its just my opinion that differs from your wife's ? what town did she live in

Did you enjoy having nothing?

I never had the feeling that I had nothing... so what I didnt have a car... I never starved... I was surrounded by people who I loved and who were interesting, I enjoyed life. And for your information even more people have "nothing" in russia now compared to back then. everyone I knew were doing somthing interesting to them and enjoyed it, I and many people I know still have nostalgic feelings about it.

And according to a survey conducted in russia a majority of russians want to be back in soviet times.

And I bet your wife greatly enjoyed 1992... or even better 1997-1999 ... ?

Raven, you do understand that what you state as a better form of government would fall to the same problems as democracy? Actually, what form you speak of sounds real familar.



Fred

All forms of government fall into the same problems as democracy or any other form of government. The main thing I was attempting to say is that we should eliminnate the unnecessary in order to find a more fair and efficient way of doing things. I don't think that a philosopher king is a democracy at all. A Central Government for the entire world would be superior to individual governments. It should be based upon principle that would make better people. Sure, the system might have aspects of democracy but it would have aspects of every kind of government as the plan is to combine them all after being rid of the useless.

"maybe its just my opinion that differs from your wife's ? what town did she live in", Odin'Izm

My wife lived in communist Poland, outside of Krakow, which was considerably better than the majority of Russia.

"I never had the feeling that I had nothing... so what I didnt have a car... I never starved..." Odin'Izm

Your comparison is that to life the United States. You find living with no freedom of speech, and limited material and political rights. If you had many friends and a great family life, that is irrelevant to this argument. Point is, that it was and still is a better life in America. I am not sure which part of the Soviet Union you enjoyed over life in the United States....

"And for your information even more people have "nothing" in russia now compared to back then.", Odin"izm

The people of Russia still have no concept of what a democracy is (they still do not have one), and I am not arguing the point that they still have nothing. My argument is a comparison to your life in Russia and life in the U.S.

"maybe its just my opinion that differs from your wife's ? what town did she live in", Odin'Izm

My wife lived in communist Poland, outside of Krakow, which was considerably better than the majority of Russia.

"I never had the feeling that I had nothing... so what I didnt have a car... I never starved..." Odin'Izm

Your comparison is that to life the United States. You find living with no freedom of speech, and limited material and political rights. If you had many friends and a great family life, that is irrelevant to this argument. Point is, that it was and still is a better life in America. I am not sure which part of the Soviet Union you enjoyed over life in the United States....

"And for your information even more people have "nothing" in russia now compared to back then.", Odin"izm

The people of Russia still have no concept of what a democracy is (they still do not have one), and I am not arguing the point that they still have nothing. My argument is a comparison to your life in Russia and life in the U.S.


1. Poland was never considered better than moscow during the soviet period, and dont say it was because it most surely wasnt. It may have been better at that time then the towns in siberia or the far east, but then again Im talking about my life and my personal experience in soviet russia.

2. No the fact is not that life was better in america it wasnt (for me) we never had limitations in material as people must have in poland, you still dont get this, people enjoyed life as it was (me and who I knew), they had no need to ask questions or complain as life seemed good the way it was, and im not talking about the stalinist soviet union, im talking about cruchev-gorbachev. The soviet union was also improving over time if it had not been sold ; by now it would be a very good place to live. Also dont even start about lack of democracy as that is not the case, America is a hell hole, and it is you who does'nt know what democracy is ; I dont see a patriot act being passed in russia just now... or somthing resembling the home land security bill, not to mention your florida recount and a 50 50 split in both of the past elections, Putin was fairly elected by a real majority of 80% if you want to argue that you show that you have no idea of what happened during the elections, no real candidates were put up to counter putin, and the fact remains that I would know who is a good candidate for my contry's future as It affects me and the future of my people , it does not affect you in the slightest.
Neither does Democracy have anything to do with the state of life in the majority of russia, the fact that the country was robbed during the transition period 1992-2000 , made a huge gap between poor and rich, not to mention the mistake of making oil personalised. the fact is, your basis is western propoganda and speculation, my source is living in both places, and ill tell you I would die rather than go back to america and you will have to accept that because thats just the way it is. my main reason for hating life in america was mostly because everything being so capitolist, "screw your own family aslong as you make a buck out of it." I lived neer chicago in a suburb called naperville, a very nice place to live but as soon as you speak to your neighbour , go to a neigbourhood barbeque, go to the super market, turn on the tv you could feel an awkward... pull at your mind which was very hard to explain Ill try and summerise it somehow and post on a different thread.

My argument is a comparison to your life in Russia and life in the U.S.

Do you know how my life was in russia or how my life was in the US? no you dont. how about you stop telling me what type of life style I like and accept my viewpoint as what one person out of 250 000 000 thinks?

If you dont like that Idea... maybe you can come here and change my reigeme? maybe take some of the gasoline out of my car and set up a base in my garden? hey if that dosnt work out you can always bomb me.

Odin: Ever think you were the exception and not the rule?

Thats exactly what I said up there /\ dont mistake my opinion for the general rule.

To be fair to Odin'Izm he is the experianced observor, although what I find he is saying is ridiculous to the max, that doesn't mean he is wrong. According to Utilitarian ethics, we have no right to say either way, he does he experienced both.

what a nice thing to say :)

Hell, its true. You are the closest thing to a sane person this forum has. Not always a right sane person, but you base your opinions on logical assumptions.

Right and wrong in politics is opinionated... so in a way we're all right about somthing.

"The soviet union was also improving over time if it had not been sold ; by now it would be a very good place to live.", Odin'Izm

Sold? It was sold because the political system was overrun with corruption. It was sold to it own ogliarchs. It would not be a good place to live, because its economics could not realistically compete against capitalist ones. It was a case of spending to much on socialism it could not actually afford. It collapsed because the economic and political systems were failures.

"America is a hell hole"

Specifically in what way?

"Putin was fairly elected by a real majority of 80% if you want to argue that you show that you have no idea of what happened during the elections"

Little note. True democracys do not have one viable candidate. How is it that I do not know what happened in the elections? I can read, and I do not read news sources from just the U.S.

"I dont see a patriot act being passed in russia just now... or somthing resembling the home land security bill"

The Patriot act and Homeland security Bill, in reality, have only minor effects to civilian rights. As compared to the centralization of power and the crackdown of news publications by Putin, I hardly will compare the two. The fact that the United States overcame an election that was decided by a few thousands votes so quickly and efficiently shows just how strong American democracy was. No violence or murder, just one candidate accepting the judgement of the Supreme Court. The recent election was not 50/50, but that just shows to viable candidates were anyway.

"I lived neer chicago in a suburb called naperville, a very nice place to live but as soon as you speak to your neighbour , go to a neigbourhood barbeque, go to the super market, turn on the tv you could feel an awkward"

Considering I lived in Naperville just about six months ago, I am not sure the feeling of awkwardness you refer to. It is one of the wealthier suburbs, and has an excellent strip on washington street for social life, as I am sure you are aware. Perhaps you were feeling the results of being a foreigner in another land (a feeling I too experienced in Poland), but I am not sure what made you feel like you were "in Hell". Perhaps it is a topic for another thread.

"your basis is western propoganda and speculation"


I am not sure were the concept of "western propaganda" comes from. Does Bush control the press? Is it a state run news organization in the U.S. you are referring to? I can, and do read, news sources from throughout the world. Now as an example of true propaganda, my wife was taught that Russians were the first to walk on the moon. It took the collapse of the Soviet Union for her to find out otherwise.

In America you have an interesting delema in terms of democracy in choosing presidents. Sure you have more than one candidate but nine out of ten odds says they are both rotters that are unsuitable to govern. Not to mension that the democrats and republicans are dominant forces that try to pretend there are no other parties. So in the end if you actually think you should vote because you think the govt really considers what you have to say you are not choosing who is a better candidate but deciding who is worse, not that you matter at all in the eyes of the Govt.

What form of government do you suggest?
Monarchy, if i'm in the upper class, and i am decended from well-off Scottish nobles, the Hume Clan. Or, if im not one who is high up, then Socialism. not the crap that played out in the real world, but what Marx intended it to be.
Though, i am quite partial to a Plutocracy...

the original constitution and the first few presidents were good. the 1787-1817 time was a very good time, and our presidents more or less followed it to the letter. AFTER that, it got mixed up in personal politics.

"The soviet union was also improving over time if it had not been sold ; by now it would be a very good place to live.", Odin'Izm

Sold? It was sold because the political system was overrun with corruption. It was sold to it own ogliarchs. It would not be a good place to live, because its economics could not realistically compete against capitalist ones. It was a case of spending to much on socialism it could not actually afford. It collapsed because the economic and political systems were failures.

"America is a hell hole"

Specifically in what way?

"Putin was fairly elected by a real majority of 80% if you want to argue that you show that you have no idea of what happened during the elections"

Little note. True democracys do not have one viable candidate. How is it that I do not know what happened in the elections? I can read, and I do not read news sources from just the U.S.

"I dont see a patriot act being passed in russia just now... or somthing resembling the home land security bill"

The Patriot act and Homeland security Bill, in reality, have only minor effects to civilian rights. As compared to the centralization of power and the crackdown of news publications by Putin, I hardly will compare the two. The fact that the United States overcame an election that was decided by a few thousands votes so quickly and efficiently shows just how strong American democracy was. No violence or murder, just one candidate accepting the judgement of the Supreme Court. The recent election was not 50/50, but that just shows to viable candidates were anyway.

"I lived neer chicago in a suburb called naperville, a very nice place to live but as soon as you speak to your neighbour , go to a neigbourhood barbeque, go to the super market, turn on the tv you could feel an awkward"

Considering I lived in Naperville just about six months ago, I am not sure the feeling of awkwardness you refer to. It is one of the wealthier suburbs, and has an excellent strip on washington street for social life, as I am sure you are aware. Perhaps you were feeling the results of being a foreigner in another land (a feeling I too experienced in Poland), but I am not sure what made you feel like you were "in Hell". Perhaps it is a topic for another thread.

"your basis is western propoganda and speculation"


I am not sure were the concept of "western propaganda" comes from. Does Bush control the press? Is it a state run news organization in the U.S. you are referring to? I can, and do read, news sources from throughout the world. Now as an example of true propaganda, my wife was taught that Russians were the first to walk on the moon. It took the collapse of the Soviet Union for her to find out otherwise.




No it was sold BY its own oligarchs, to the west. as for the economy, 6 rubels were worth 1 dollar before the collapse, higher than alot of the currencys in europe. and since you dont understand this, the economy was self sestained it had no contact with the capitolist world, slowly as the infrastructure improved and everythign eent into rythm all the things provided to citizens would be upgraded with time.


america is a hellhole because I failed to enjoy life there... and thought that anyone I met was a dipshit, the facist government, questioning me everytime I got on a plane... Fox "terror alerts" , Nationalism , lack of thinking people, everyone being unable to explain to me why they were more free than the rest of the world... and from what. not to mention the terrible dentist bills for a check-up , and hospital bills.


"Little note. True democracys do not have one viable candidate. How is it that I do not know what happened in the elections? I can read, and I do not read news sources from just the U.S."

Are you a compleat fool? the different partys put up who THEY thought were viable, but the fact remainst they were nothing compared to putin... your blaming putin for putting up a pack of retards against himself... you are a fool right?? good job you can read! an amazing acheivment seeing how you come from the hell hole.!!! *claps*
A true democracy is when the majority chooses the leader idiot, thats what happened, the incompetance of the other candidates is their own fault not the democracy's , they were all offered the same chance but putin won fairly and for good reasons. < that statment you made is tyhe stupidest thing I have heard in the past 5 years, congradulations.

As compared to the centralization of power and the crackdown of news publications by Putin, I hardly will compare the two

ahahahaaahahahahaha!!!! ahahahaahahahahaah!!! you are insane...

"boohoo they put my soap off the air.. "*crys* this is so much worse then my neighbours being spys and being easily compared to the Gestapo in nazi germany.

the reason putin fired the owner of HTV was because he was a good friend of yelsins (a total bastard) thus ridding the chanel of a conaction to the facist bastard.

yes bush's close friend owns the Fox chanel, a bit worse then putins not so good friend owning HTV

Your wife lived in a very strange land... iv never met anyone who thought the russians were first on the moon.

"How is it that I do not know what happened in the elections?"

How is it that I dont know ther's a god? You blame putin for that aswell? because you fail to know somthing dont blame others its just silly. your fault not mine, not putins.

I was in britain during the elections and I saw it on bbc and euronews ... then went to russia and watched the tapes of russian coverage (RTV) <- not owned by a friend of putins.

"How is it that I dont know ther's a god? You blame putin for that aswell? because you fail to know somthing dont blame others its just silly. your fault not mine, not putins." Odin'Izm

Here is a few points about the media crackdown in Russia...

http://bcsia.ksg.harvard.edu/BCSIA_content/documents/RW6-01.doc

"The most dramatic example of this trend can be seen in Russian television. At the beginning of President Putin’s term there were four TV stations with a broadcasting range of over half the Russian viewing population: ORT, RTR, NTV, and TV-6"

"Of the four networks, only TV-6 remains independent from state control today."

Actually TV-6 was shut down, as well.... Not to mention that the above article states that 43% of Russians believe their nation is attacking the press, which was more that believes it isnt....theres more...

http://www.freemedia.at/r_wl_russia.htm

The International press institute has put Russia on its watch list. Some of the reasons given are the recent murders and crack downs on the Russian press. Dont take my word for it...

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715

The RSF ranked Russia 140 out of 167 nations in freedom of press. How can one have a fair election under those circumstances? Must be all that western propaganda....

"was in britain during the elections and I saw it on bbc and euronews",Odin'Izm

Both of which called Putins election by such a high percentage suspect, so its good you heard their opinion, as well.

"yes bush's close friend owns the Fox chanel, a bit worse then putins not so good friend owning HTV",Odin'Izm

Generally, most criticize the fact that the believe Rupert Murdoch is part of the vast jewish media conspiracy that is completely pro-Israel, so at least you have a different take. Though Murdoch has shown less critiques of Bush, I agree, they are hardly friends. Secondly, I do not see that as nearly as great of problem as your president shutting down the press...

"the reason putin fired the owner of HTV was because he was a good friend of yelsins",Odin'Izm

You do not see a problem with a president being able to fire a member of the press?

"Your wife lived in a very strange land... iv never met anyone who thought the russians were first on the moon.",Odin'Izm

Considering I will be heading to Poland in the next week, I will be sure to have my wife take the book in question that makes that claim she had in school. Apparently, being in Moscow, you did not have to deal with such things. I will be happy, when receiving it, to scan it for you to see.

"worse then my neighbours being spys and being easily compared to the Gestapo in nazi germany. "Odin'Izm

Your neighbors were spies... Hmm.. naperville was different then I remember...

"everyone being unable to explain to me why they were more free than the rest of the world", Odin'Izm

I make no claim to being more free than Japan, Germany, France, South Korea.... but Russia,.......

"not to mention the terrible dentist bills for a check-up , and hospital bills.",Odin'Izm

Actually, an insurance policy costs usually about one-third the amount of most western nations socialist policies that tax so highly. Europe's socialist method of health care is about to collapse, and may soon be following the U.S. private policy example. It is near bankrupt. In Russia, the average life expectancy is 64, due to the fact that so many get no health care at all....

"good job you can read!", Odin'Izm

I guess my american mind will never be able to create such intelligent responses as follows:

"Are you a compleat fool?"
"ahahahaaahahahahaha!!!! ahahahaahahahahaah!!! you are insane..."
"that statment you made is tyhe stupidest thing I have heard in the past 5 years, "
"idiot, "

and my personal favorite....

"boohoo they put my soap off the air"

:rolleyes:

"Actually TV-6 was shut down, as well.... "

yes bullshit, thats why I still watch it, none of the channels have changed other than more reality shows... its a deffinite conspiracy.

"The International press institute has put Russia on its watch list. Some of the reasons given are the recent murders and crack downs on the Russian press. Dont take my word for it..."

boohoo a watch list, how about you put fox on the watch list it bleathers more shit than any chanell i've watched over the years.

"How can one have a fair election under those circumstances?"

Is that why the other candidates put up atleast 5 times more advertisments on all the channels compared to putin? yes he deffinately has control over the press and a monopoly at that...

"your president shutting down the press..."

the press is still there, the news chanels are still there, everything is still there even anti putin articles.

"You do not see a problem with a president being able to fire a member of the press?"

not really, as it hasnt affected the chanels... I would be more happy if he shut down the oil companies though.

" In Russia, the average life expectancy is 64, due to the fact that so many get no health care at all...."

they got free health care untill the soviet union collapsed, thank yelsin and gorbachev for the state of it now.

"I guess my american mind will never be able to create such intelligent responses as follows"

no it wont, becuase your opinion is centrolised to a post - cold war- environment filled with xenophobes kicking whats left of russia while its down.

and I didnt call you an idiot. just insane...

"yes bullshit, thats why I still watch it, none of the channels have changed other than more reality shows... its a deffinite conspiracy.", Odim'Izim

NTV was the well respected journalist network that was very skeptical of the Chechen war. Most of those journalists left (including Yevgeny Kiselyov), when the state run natural gas monopoly took control in 2001. Most of those journalists then broadcast from TV-6.

TV-6 was then shut down by the Russian courts, citing a shareholder dispute as the reason, in January of 2002. TV-6 reopened its doors in March of that same year, with Yevgeny Kiselyov still heading it, but it was supervised by ex-KGB and former prime minister Yevgeny Primakov.

This caused much of the staff to leave and begin the network of NTV. THe demise of NTV, however, had more to do with economics then with any government interference. The result, however, was Russian news dominated by state run networks.

"how about you put fox on the watch list it bleathers more shit than any chanell i've watched over the years.",Odim'Izim

I agree, FOX news is garbage, but the reason for that is a little less sinister. It is PRIVATE owned by corporations, and believes it found a niche in the market by apealing to the so called "patriot". In reality, it has nothing to do with being patriotic, but is attractive to the attention challenged and slow minded. It is however, one of many private networks that one can choose from.

"they got free health care untill the soviet union collapsed, thank yelsin and gorbachev for the state of it now.", Odim'Izim

Even in the Soviet Union it was very poor.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/312/7034/799

As stated in this article, in 1995 four years after the fall of the soviets, life expectancy for a male was 59, and a woman was 71. In the end, the average falls in around 65-66, slightly higher then present times. Before that time period, it was lower.

The reason for this is many of the rural areas remained dirt poor, and had very little access to medical care, which was better in the larger cities. There was never enough money to go around to create a strong health care system.

"no it wont, becuase your opinion is centrolised to a post - cold war- environment filled with xenophobes kicking whats left of russia while its down."Odim'Izim

The concerns of the United States at the moment are focused more on the fear of an overblown terrorist threat, rather than a concern about Russia. I do not base my opinions on a lingering Xenophobia, but rather on what I read from multiple news sources from around the world, some of which I have shown you in my posts above.

Calling me Xenophobic is an easy attack that you can use when you can not sustain your argument with facts, as I have already presented. To the contrary, I would like to see the Russian economy pick up if only to counter a realistic burdgeoning threat, China.

Previously posted:

"A true democracy is when the majority chooses the leader idiot, thats what happened, the incompetance of the other candidates is their own fault not the democracy's"

"and I didnt call you an idiot", Odim'Izim

Unless you were attempting to combine the word leader, and idiot, then that is one more point that you cannot prove.

Most of the tv channels were replaced due to the fact that the information they were putting out was very pesimistic, anti russian , and causing very low moral. For a people trying to recover from a change of politics and on the verge of poverty it had to be done.

journalists did not leave NTV
Yevgeny Kiselyov fired alot of his workers before being thrown out himself, and he is certainly no angel.

Life expectancy for men began to decline due to alcohol abuse, which is why they passed the dry law, which failed.

"Calling me Xenophobic is an easy attack that you can use when you can not sustain your argument with facts"

no Its the sad truth.

By the way only ORT is owned by the government NTV is still private along with the rest of the chanels.

NTV actually got the prize for best news program of 2003 as far as I remember, Ill try and find the report I watched on bbc.