Young-Earthers (IAC):

When God created animals, did he create only the "Super-Genetic" hyper mutts only, or did he create hundreds or thousands of "variations of syngameons" or species?

Who are you quoting "variations of syngameons?"

Have you no respect for the Biology and Genetics forum?

You badly misspelled the technical term syngameon in your title, so what was your purpose in doing so NDS?

Who are you quoting "variations of syngameons?"

You, who have defined "species" as "variations of syngameons" in the past. Now please answer the question, or can you?

I said variations within respective syngameons, so maybe you should start a new thread with something cogent.

Have you no respect for the Biology and Genetics forum?

You badly misspelled the technical term syngameon in your title, so what was your purpose in doing so NDS?

Did I? LOL. Maybe it's just that you can't read. Ahahahahahah!!!

You spelled it horribly wrong in the title, and then correctly in your first post, why is this?

You spelled it horribly wrong in the title, and then correctly in your first post, why is this?

Actually, I didn't spell it wrong in the title. You should try "Hooked on Phonics," I hear it works great!!!

And why should I have respect for a "technical" term which receives 1,380 search results on Google, most of which are repeats? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!


With 1,380 search results, I can see how widely accepted the term is in science. Again, where did you get your degree in Biology?

So you admit that you have no respect for the technical term syngameon, and you've edited the title and post #6, so the verdict please?

The verdict is: Since you undoubtedly have realized that my single question in post #1 disproves your entire Global Flood theory (which is why you won't answer it, obviously), you are guilty of being a moron!!!

That's just swell but you did not accurately present my position, so the moron is in the mirror there NDS.

The question, as you posed it, is nonsensical, but that's not surprising actually.

When God created animals, birds, etc. what were the animals like? Was there a lot of diversity in the first 2,000 years of the earth, or were all the animals "hyper mutts"? Can you elaborate (probably not)?

In the case of the syngameon which includes all the variations of cats, they probably looked like cats, and bird syngameon pairs, probably like birds.

Ok, the theory doesn't work with your YEH - the "syngameons" appeared millions and hundreds of millions of years prior to Noah. It don't work and you can't fix it. Give up the literalism.

What is your reasoning?

There are numerous examples of species that divided from a parent species and are no longer even remotely capable of interbreeding. One example, ants evolved from wasps.

And that's all pre-Noah.

The dog don't hunt.

What is all pre-Noah, and so, the dog supposedly won't hunt?

The differentiation of those species occurs millions of years prior to the existence of any humans. Noah is a human. So...

Oh, I see, so what animal did humans supposedly evolve from?

We certainly evolved from apes.

Which apes, and what is the evidence for it?

In the case of the syngameon which includes all the variations of cats, they probably looked like cats, and bird syngameon pairs, probably like birds.

"God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind."


Hmmmmmm. So according to the bible, God didn't create "syngameon pairs" for birds (or cattle). Instead he created the individual species. So your statement above contradicts the bible.


From the fossil record, we know that there were literally thousands, if not millions of different "species" of animals living, according to you, pre-Deluge. What this means, is that:

a) God didn't create hyper mutts (Noah ark type animals with tons of DNA info), instead he created all the separate species found in the fossil record on day 5 and 6.

b) God created hyper mutts for some or all of the five categories of animals, and they produced the variation seen in the fossil record

If a is true, then your syngameon theory is moot, since Noah had no "hyper mutts" available on the earth to take on the ark.

If b is true, then your syngameon theory is moot because the hyper mutts would not have been able to survive for 2000 years. Their "descendents" would be the only one's left. This is proven by the fact that there are no "hyper mutt" animals, or evidence for them, in existence today. Therefore in case (b) Noah would have no hyper mutts to bring on the ark either.

"Kinds" are the syngameons.

Troll alert.

Syngameons are clearly defined in science and the troll IAC is twisting the definition for religious purposes.

Oh shit, here comes 54 infractions.
That was quite an accomplishment. Well done!

Hey Spur, read the opening post of the thread, you were saying?

Troll alert.

Syngameons are clearly defined in science and the troll IAC is twisting the definition for religious purposes.

What's the world record for infractions, did I set it?

What's the world record for infractions, did I set it?

No, the USA holds that record.

Hey spur, how come NDS mentions God in the opening post in Biology?

Oh, I see, so what animal did humans supposedly evolve from?

...what are you arguing? That Noah wasn't human? That he was around in aeons gone by to load the animals on the Ark, because he was a more distant ancestor of humans himself and therefore contemporaneous with ancient forms? Noah was a monkey? What?

Give up on the literalism.

Hey spur, how come NDS mentions God in the opening post in Biology?

Why are you asking me. Am I your God who answers your prayers?

Noah was a monkey? What?



Don't be silly geoffP, Great Leader. Noah was a green monkey syngamanga.

But of course! We have his remains carefully preserved in East Korea.

Syngamanga!

Hey spur, how come NDS mentions God in the opening post in Biology?

Because God is everywhere?

I was answering it as related to the issue of syngameons. If you want to switch topics, that's fine, but let's do that then and call a win for me on the syngameon issue.

Again: Noah is a recent animal. Dinosaurs are not. Carbon dating shows they are hundreds of millions of years old. Noah couldn't possibly have put them or their syngameons or even their gonads on the Ark. It doesn't work.

Look: no one - or at least not me - is arguing against God or what have you. God can't be tested. (He even says so, so I think your entire argument is heretical.) But literalism is nonsense. You can still be a Christian and believe in evolution and a non-literal interpretation of events. Just ask the Pope.

You said that we evolved from apes, and I asked you, GeoffP, which ones? You don't seem to have an answer, is this true?

GeoffP, how can Carbon dating show that creatures are millions of years old?

You said that we evolved from apes, and I asked you, GeoffP, which ones? You don't seem to have an answer, is this true?

Don't be daft. Are you suggesting apes evolved from Noah?

GeoffP says that Noah evolved from apes, I asked him which ones, and he has no answer.

GeoffP, how can Carbon dating show that creatures are millions of years old?

Generally we don't carbon date stuff that is millions of years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating

GeoffP says that Noah evolved from apes, I asked him which ones, and he has no answer.

The ancestral apes of course.

What did they supposedly look like?

What did they supposedly look like?

very much like your mother.

GeoffP, how can Carbon dating show that creatures are millions of years old?

Radioactive decay. Unless you think radioactivity has syngameons now.

As for which primate (not necessarily ape), Homo habilis or something similar. Prior to that, something in the Australopithecus genus. Prior to that, probably Ardipithicus.

Anyway, they were probably all on the Ark. Not so? Come on, man.

Whoopsie. Yeah, that would be U-235 wouldn't it?

Meh. Never took paleontology. My cousin was a pretty good one though. So sue me.

You said Carbon 14 dating, very ignorant.

Who's to say that Homo Habilis was not a human, and Australopithecus was not an ape?

At least GeoffP corrects his errors.

pseudoscience forum.

You said Carbon 14 dating, very ignorant.

Yep. And?

Who's to say that Homo Habilis was not a human, and Australopithecus was not an ape?

Well, who's to say you are? I've no idea what you look like.

The point is that one looks more like a monkey than another, shortly put.

Your cousin was a paleontology?

Oh, IAC: are we degenerating to ad hominem now? Give it a rest.

Well, I leave it to you:

They occur further back in time; then, disappear. Mass suicide? Couldn't take being out of the garden any longer? Evolution and extinction? Your call.

They show greater similarity to monkeys and less to ourselves the further back one goes.

They share less and less % sequence similarity to humans with increasing "simianism".

Now, if you want to demand more evidence, go ahead, but you don't strike me as the kind of person that would have let OJ off. "How much do you need?" might be a good question here. "Would you ever change your opinion?" would be another.

Oy. Madness.

Anyway, again: nothing wrong with being a theist. Be fruitful and multiply. But literalism is a madman's road, to nowhere.

Darwinian change should be noticeable in nature, at least "punctuated equilibrium," but it's not, and for thousands of mutations to happen to be good for a creature as it serendipitously moves into a new ecological niche is beyond the pale, so I guess the jury is still out shall we say.

Which apes, and what is the evidence for it?
We are a kind of ape that descended from an unknown kind of ape. The evidence is our physical similarity, specific details about our bodies and skeletons, and DNA.

Why can't you prove that 10 million species evolved from 20,000 "kinds" or "syngameons"?

How did polar bears suddenly sprout webbed feet in a few generations? Punctuated equilibrium?

The bottom line is, as I have proven before, Noah did not have any "hyper mutts" to bring on the ark. They simply were not there. Only in IAC's fantasy world.

All the so-called species obviously selected from larger respective gene pools, the opposite of Darwinian evolution, so you have that little hurdle.

Let's assume that the "bear" syngameon pair on the ark had black fur, white spots, normal (not webbed feet), etc. How did it suddenly give birth to an all white fur bear, with webbed feet?

Who said it necessarily did suddenly? And if it did, through the womb.

Then why can't they prove it?

They have.

Who said it necessarily did suddenly? And if it did, through the womb.

You did.

IAC, why don't the hyper mutts exist today? What caused them to go extinct?

"All the so-called species obviously selected from larger respective gene pools"

The hyper mutts, according to you had "larger respective gene pools." They had genes for webbed feet, locking ankle bones, etc.

Can you find me a species today which has a gene pool as large as the hyper mutts brought on Noah's ark? Probably not. Therefore, that "kind" is extinct.

Why would a "species" have a gene pool as large as the hyper mutts? That's oxymoronic.

Why would a "species" have a gene pool as large as the hyper mutts? That's oxymoronic.

Who's saying they did, besides you?

I'm asking why the hyper mutt species themselves are nowhere to be found. I mean, they lasted for 2,000 before the flood (otherwise Noah would have no hyper mutts to bring on board).

The ecology was essentially homogenous pre-Deluge, and there were no isolated breeding groups.

Just out of curiosity, where did you get your degree in ecology?

The ecology was essentially homogenous pre-Deluge, and there were no isolated breeding groups.

Oh yeah, by the way. If the ecology was so "homogenous" pre-Deluge, then why is it that we see literally thousands of different variations of dinosaurs and other extinct animals in the fossil record, which according to you lived pre-Deluge in a convenient "homogenous" environment in which the animals would have no reason to speciate?

"Thousands of variations of dinosaurs?"

Correct. Now, your response please?

Keep in mind, even if there were only 20 different variations of one family, or "kind," then your fairly tale "homogenous pre-Deluge environment" BS would be disproven (Which of course, there are many more than 20).

How many syngameons is that?

LOL. How many syngameons is what?

Well, if there was 300 variations say of the Hadrosaur "syngameon," then those 300 variations would be of the one Hadrosaur "syngameon," obviously.

But, that really wasn't the point there, Ice Man. The point, was that why would hundreds of variations of even one syngameon exist if the "ecology" or "environment" was so homogenous?

Who said there were significant variations of syngameons?

The fossil record.

You were talking pre-Deluge, remember?

LOL. Yes, and you have claimed that the dinosaurs were fossilized by sediments in the flood. Therefore, in order to have gone through the flood, they must have lived right before the flood as well.

Wow, I feel like I am talking to a third grader. Get with the program, IAC, or get out.

You never said what a "variation" is, that's your problem.

You never said what a "variation" is, that's your problem.

A "variation" is a "species." That is what you said, and that is what I'm going by. According to you, all the "species" we see today are simply variations of their respective syngameons.

Let us look at the Ceratopsian "family" or "syngameon," as one example, to see the vast variations in syngameons (species) which we have found in the fossil record. Keep in mind, that fossilization is an extremely rare event, meaning that what we have found so far represents only a small percentage of the fossils in existence today, and of the amount of species which existed in the dinosaur age itself.

Infraorder Ceratopsia
Yinlong - (Xinjiang, western China)

Family Chaoyangsauridae
Xuanhuaceratops - (Hebei, China)
Chaoyangsaurus - (Liaoning, northeastern China)

Family Psittacosauridae
Psittacosaurus - (China & Mongolia)
Hongshanosaurus - (Liaoning, northeastern China)
Liaoceratops - (Liaoning, northeastern China)
Yamaceratops - (Mongolia)
Archaeoceratops - (Gansu, northwestern China)
Auroraceratops - (Gansu, northwestern China)

Family Leptoceratopsidae
Bainoceratops - (Mongolia)
Leptoceratops - (Alberta, Canada & Wyoming, USA)
Montanoceratops - (Montana, USA)
Prenoceratops - (Montana, USA)
Udanoceratops - (Mongolia)

Family Protoceratopsidae
Graciliceratops - (Mongolia)
Bagaceratops - (Mongolia)
Breviceratops - (Mongolia)
Lamaceratops - (Mongolia)
Magnirostris - (Inner Mongolia, China)
Platyceratops - (Mongolia)
Protoceratops - (Mongolia)

Superfamily Ceratopsoidea
Zuniceratops - (New Mexico, USA)

Syngameons are not so-called species, as species is a meaningless term.

Let me define these terms, and you tell me if you agree:

Syngameon - A group of animals which can mate and produce fertile offspring

Species - Variations of a syngameon

So all of these species (variations of their respective sygameons) developed during the Pre-Deluge era, which you claim to have been homogenous.

Check.

Okay, thank you. By the lack of response, we all now know (as we have before) that in fact all those variations couldn't have developed in such a homogenous environment. Consequently, the environment COULD NOT have been homogenous, therefore Noah had no hyper mutts (animals with large gene pools) to bring on the ark, since none existed 2,000 years later by the time of the flood.

Checkmate.

No, you not telling me at all is not a response. Checkmate.

If your hypothesis is correct, IAC, then Noah need not have carried any apes on the arc, which means that all apes descended from humans.

Checkmate.

Darwinian change should be noticeable in nature, at least "punctuated equilibrium," but it's not, and for thousands of mutations to happen to be good for a creature as it serendipitously moves into a new ecological niche is beyond the pale, so I guess the jury is still out shall we say.

Microevolution has been illustrated many times already in a variety of simple models, as have phenotype-genotype correlation (in innumerable situations). Similarly, genotype-by-environment interaction resulting in unpredictable shifts in phenotypic means have also been illustrated. The jury is not out. They're back. And they're mad.

And that always within respective syngameons however.

But none of which were found on an Ark. Not even a 500 million year old one.

All rightie, then.

Did you know that at current erosion rates, all the continental rock above sea level should have eroded into the sea within 15 million years?

Oh? Is all the continental rock above sea level exposed to erosion, or covered with a soft spongy insulating blanket of soil laid down by plants and dead organisms?

All of it.

Riiight. That explains all the mud and such in the park next block over.

Which erosion are we talking about? How is rock covered by dirt exposed to wind erosion, for example? What is your source for this assertion? Details, details.

The calculation is pretty straight forward.

All right: then finding it should be similarly straightforward.

Bring your proofs, if ye are truthful.

At the current erosion rate of Mt Everest, it's going to be several miles higher than it is now in 15 million years.

But maybe the ocean will be up there, too, with a little ark bobbing on the waves.

Well put. Surface accrues as well as erodes.

Since the Earth is supposedly millions of years old, where is the evidence of the "Ordovician," and "Permian," and "Carboniferous" mountain ranges? Hundreds of millions of years of supposed slow mountain uplift?

You say in 15 million years the Himalaya mountains will be miles higher, so where are the ancient mountain ranges which must have risen over hundreds of millions of years?

The localized uplift of the Himalayas, and I think the Andes, and maybe others, is residual movement from the runaway tectonics of the Deluge, just a local phenomenon.

Just look up the sediment load and flow of all the major rivers, factor in the small rivers, and you'll discover the rough calculation that the continents, at current erosion rates, should have leveled to sea level within 15 million years.

Deposited material, rather.

Sediment load and flow of the rivers applies to the rivers themselves, doubtlessly. The entire surface of the land is not covered by river. And this is earth science, not even evolution: surely you don't think that the only thing holding back all this erosion is the direct hand of God?

Or wait: are you actually a Young Earther or something?

That made little sense, I think you're about punched out.

Don't be ridiculous. You haven't responded to anything I've written. I don't think you were even in the ring.

Don't be ridiculous. You haven't responded to anything I've written. I don't think you were even in the ring.

He's not even in the same city.

Why supposedly no apes on the Ark?

Chimpanzees and humans are more closely related than, for instance, some species of very similar looking birds. I assume the purpose of your theory is to account for the space and care requirements Noah must have needed to save all the species that exist today. You do this by assuming all related species aren't species at all, but more like mutts, variations within a breeding population. Well, apes are no more likely to breed with humans than bobcats and tigers, but you classify them as the same biblical "kind", for which you use the word "syngameon". Having Noah and his family on board would make catching another representative of the great ape syngameon unnecessary.

If humans and apes are not in the same syngameon, then you must explain what exactly differentiates such morphologically similar animals. And by extension, why other morphologically dissimilar animals can be considered as part of one group.

But spidergoat, Noah and his family were not great apes.

I disagree. They were really great apes.

So GeoffP says that apes can build ships, go figure.

No, IAC, apes can't build ships. But their hyper mutt ancestors can. ;)

Apes and humans are not of the same syngameon.

Apes and humans are not of the same syngameon.

Yeah, I know. Due to isolated breeding groups post-deluge they speciated off from a common ancestor and now can longer mate. Pretty cool, eh?