I hate to offend anyone and i respect all beliefs but still, I have to say this, WHATS WITH ALL THE RELIGIOUS FANATICSM??? Jesus is not coming to start a new world order because he was not the Son of God, just a brilliant and kind-hearted charismatic person....Religion is PRIMITIVE!! Nothing is going to happen! If it does it will be our visitors finally revealing themselves.....But there will be no catastrophe or New World Order...just wait and see...if you're waiting for the 2nd kingdom of god or the apocalypse you have a very dissapointing future ahead of you

FarBeyondDriven

I hate to offend anyone and i respect all beliefs but still, I have to say this, WHATS WITH ALL THE RELIGIOUS FANATICSM???

*******************************************

I think you have kiddo................

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see the reply's you get.

Next time just skip the preambles and go straight to the offensive stuff. "No one takes any offense here anyway!!!"

And no one can be waiting for a 2nd coming, there has to be a 1st coming before there can be a 2nd.

Driven,

Religo fananatic here, ya got it wrong on a couple of counts.

1. You have offended everyone, but don't worry to much. People who hang out here have leather hides.

2. Jesus is was and always will be the Son of God. Along with being kind and all the other nice bits you wrote about Him.

But you got it right when you said religin was primitive, it is. But a real and living faith and relationship with God is not. That my friend is incredible.

Sorry and sad to see another soul in termoil about the truth. Say those little grey skins didn't mess with you did they?

Allcare

H2o

AMEN To That Tony!!!!!!!!!!

Am I included in everyone?

The reason I ask is that there exist enough ways in which the topic post hasn't offended me that I generally don't find it offensive.

As a matter of fact, I'll defend the topic post on the general grounds that I'm quite sure I'm aware of a specific degree of fanatacism which, should it be capable of understanding such words, actually needs this kind of a kick in the pants.

For instance, we've argued about generalizing Christians a lot at this board. However, just yesterday I was accosted by a missionary on the street. Now, I'm used to people handing me literature on the street, but I'm not used to someone moving to block my egress from the street as the traffic lights change in order to practically shove pamphlets up my nose. Quite honestly, the reason I didn't hit him is that I don't trust society to not see it as a hate crime. Of course, if I hit him, I also would have grabbed him and thrown him into that very traffic. But what wretched excuse of a God licenses such hostile, invasive behavior? Specifically, we can look to Whitaker House in New Kensington, Pennsylvania; The Tract League, in Grand Rapids, Michigan; the American Bible Society in New York; and a group called ATS, in Garland, TX. But of course, they aren't responsible for these arrogant freaks. A church called the Holy Ghost Revival, on Second Ave in Seattle has these people out trying to drive the pagan masses under bus wheels. But the fact of the matter is that no God on any high-horsed throne gets to charge his people to attempt to endanger my safety in order to spread his Gospel; it's an unholy Gospel in that case. And what was it for? Well, apparently the Roman Catholic Bible has the anser, and I also needed someone to tell me what my favorite Bible verses are, and then there's this hilariously stupid one called, Who wants you sick, God or the Devil?

Really, if this is the kind of thing people need to find God, then they're stupid, stupid people. Fear literature, Bible braggadocio, and an explanation of My Favorites. Oh, the color-photo, pocket-sized calendar-card was nice. Everyone needs a calendar. :rolleyes:

Now, if I were to speak FarBeyond's words and draw the fanatacist line, it would occur at a conduct-level slightly less obnoxious than these loving fellows I encountered yesterday. I recall a fanatic church in Belltown that asserts: "Liberty is not the freedom to do what you choose, Liberty is the freedom to do what God says is right."

We know that fanatacism progresses all the way to mass murder, but what is the minimum of fanatacism? That, I admit, is a hard question to answer.

Tony, if I might ... from what I know of your words, and from the conversations we've had, I've never experienced you at a truly fanatic degree. It's not to me to assert your psychology, though, but I often wonder why certain people object to certain statements. Way back when I joined this board, I was nearly overwhelmed by this .... I said things about "Christianity", and was severely rebuked by a character or two, and with some reasonable points of argument. And that seemed fair. But when I modified that to clarify that I was speaking of "Church culture" and "institutional culture", I received the same severity from these same characters, both of whom had refused the Church culture themselves long ago. Now, if they were defending aspects of Church culture, that would be one thing, but I always wondered why these characters thought I was referring to them.

Now, I can't speak for the degrees represented in the topic post, but I don't think that very many people here cross that line regularly.

As I read it, one must assume that they are included to be offended by the statement. So perhaps you're including yourself, but do you think your actions really cross that line?

Warning, I am about to be presumptuous, but for the sake of a slightly larger argument. If I may .... I'll connect your point #2 to a sense of offense. If the declaration that Jesus is not coming is "offensive", then what of your own words?

Jesus is was and always will be the Son of God.

Well, I can honestly say that despite my generally theist leanings, one of the reasons I tried hard to be an atheist was statements like this. Thank you, as such, for severely limiting the possibilities of what God can be. Or something like that ... ;)

You know that nasty little argument that comes when an infidel refers to Christians as selfish and arrogant? That's kind of where it comes from, when people choose to have it. It comes from a common rhetorical pattern in which one person asserts the offense of another's words, and then enacts the exact same allegedly-offensive logical device. If I say that Jesus is not the son of God, then I'll accept the argument that I'm being disrespectful to Christians ... but only when the same applies for the statement that Jesus is the son of God. When you deny Jesus, it's as offensive as when you dismiss the notions of other faiths that might actually have it right. (Which one? None of 'em have it right yet, but the point is that their claims are as legitimate as anyone else's in the faith arena.)

The principle must be applicable both ways, or else it's just an affinity at best, and a bigotry at worst.

And, speaking of both ways ....

Sorry and sad to see another soul in termoil about the truth.

There again, I think the point needs to be made that I can say this about a Christian, too, if I feel. Or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Buddhist or Wiccan or Satanist or ... ad nauseum

I will second Cris on the notion that the topic post should skip preamble and apology. We must choose to be offended.

In the end, God may or may not come, and it might be the God of the Christians, or the Wiccans, or any we've known in human history and possibly some that we've never known.

But in the meantime, people seem to be having trouble getting along in the world in general. As long as we concern ourselves with limiting reality by declaring exclusive names for God, I personally think that we (society in general) won't be getting any kinder to ourselves.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Hi Tiassa,

A couple of points.

Some of what I said was tounge in cheek:

Offended everyone and the bit about the greys. I can't speak for everyone here and well the stuff driven spouted was about in line with what the grey chasers spit out.

I have not the time at the moment to read all your post and get into a heavy debate. But I am finding the more I read that you post the more its starting to all look the same. I'd realy like to cut through the who said this and who quoted that rubbish and get to the bottom of whats jacking you off so much about God, faith and Christians in general. maybe a new post about that character assination bit would be a good avenue to explore and get to the bottom of what YOU (not crawly nor any other) but what YOU Tiassa as a person with your own encounters think. Ya recon we could do that? You know cut to the chase and spit it out once and for all? If I had more time I'd take the long tour with you but I'm strapped on that front and so if you really want to get down to tin tacs it will need to be short precise and to the point.

If not then we can save it for some other time when I have more time.

No mallice intended in the above through together of verbs, nouns, blah blah blah.

Allcare

Tony H2o

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Yee-Haa! Doesn't religion bring out the best in all of us? <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon12.gif">

What a waste of time! The point here is that people of religious faith often insult the intelligence of those who don't share the same beliefs. Armed with a bible, they assume righteousness, forgetting the fact that all of us share the same limitation.

From my personal experience, Christians are some of the most arrogant, presumptuous cult members to have stained this World. But I forgive them.

I don't think the problem is with their faith. It's how they assume responsibility for our souls.

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited May 06, 2000).]

Originally posted by Bowser:

What a waste of time! The point here is that people of religious faith often insult the intelligence of those who don't share the same beliefs. Armed with a bible, they assume righteousness, forgetting the fact that all of us share the same limitation.

From my personal experience, Christians are some of the most arrogant, presumptuous cult members to have stained this World. But I forgive them.

I don't think the problem is with their faith. It's how they assume responsibility for our souls.



You are way off base, buddy. If you want to see arrogant, try an atheist that won't accept anything but God in a beaker!

I don't assume responsibility for anyone's soul, only my own.

And as far as insulting intellingence, your sweeping generalization is doing just that.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

bowser,

Make one simple change - say instead of "Christians are some of" say "Some Christians are". Otherwise it sounds like you are painting all Christians with the same brush, and I don't think you mean that.

I have real friends who are devout Christians who do not go around thrusting their beliefs at everyone else, however, I have seen them cringe at some of the TV evangelism that exists.

I suspect that those arrogant "Christians" that we have seen would probably be rejected by the bulk of truly humble real Christians.

Trying to help I hope.
Cris

Tony ...

'Sup to you.

;)

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

<hr>
<font color = "red">pashley-

"And as far as insulting intellingence, your sweeping generalization is doing just that."</font>

<hr>

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Sorry if I put you on the defensive. I was speaking of my own personal experience with Christians:

<hr>
<blink>From my personal experience,</blink> Christians are some of the most arrogant, presumptuous cult members to have stained this World. But I forgive them.

<hr>

Cris, I see no reason to change my words as long as my observations hold true. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon12.gif">

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited May 07, 2000).]

Cris,

Make one simple change - say instead of "Christians are some of" say "Some Christians are". Otherwise it sounds like you are painting all Christians with the same brush, and I don't think you mean that.

Having to do this with everything you say will cause you to completly move away from the original thought that you are trying to get accross. There is something called the general rule and the exception to that rule. For examle, we all know somking is bad for you, but there are those who are very old and started somking young that will tell you well it never did any thing to me. Here we have the exception to the rule. Now if we went around and said that somking is bad for you, but there is a X % chance that nothing will happen to you, what would happen? Can you see my point?

bowser, 666,

I try to never offend anyone for any reason under any circumstances. I believe this is due to my instinctive use of determinism. In other words to attack someone or to punish someone is pointless, their actions are not the root cause of the issue, they are merely the messengers. Now it is quite acceptable to ruthlessly attack the principles underlying the position of your opponent, where you believe such principles are wrong or dangerous.

In the case of Christians, their beliefs are based on irrationality and hence they themselves will behave in an irrational fashion to a large degree. Their sometimes-offensive behavior is the result of centuries of mental conditioning. Our task as rational thinkers should be to undermine and destroy that false conditioning and show sympathy for the victims.

Now if you openly attack someone what is his or her likely reaction? Do they instantly give up and admit you are correct? I don’t think so. It is more likely that will become more entrenched in their beliefs than before the attack. The human instinct is survival and we will often defend ourselves to the death even if the issue is no longer relevant.

Now try the reverse approach demonstrate your desire to understand their position and gain their trust. They are no longer likely to attack you and they might listen to your views. The danger here is that if you do not fully understand or believe your own position and beliefs then you might end up changing sides. In which case the stronger views will win. So before saying anything always be sure of your case, and that should be true even if you plan to offend.

I have never seen a situation where offending someone results in a positive benefit, it is anti productive. However, adopting a trusting and conciliatory approach will and does result in enormous progress towards mutual understanding peace and new knowledge.

However, I have no right to impose my approach on others, my apologies if you took my comments that way. I must have been tired.

Cris

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> I was searching for an emotional response, but I was disappointed by the limited response. Please excuse my intentional flame. I was picking on the Christians, looking for a predictable reaction.

As you might have already assumed, the Devil made me do it. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif">

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited May 07, 2000).]

by Bowser:
From my personal experience, Christians are some of the most arrogant, presumptuous cult members to have stained this World. But I forgive them.

Well, for one, Christians aren't a cult. An organization can be a cult, but not belief.

If you would like to target a branch, like Catholics or Mormons, we can debate that.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Bowser,

Stop picking on the new guys, OK? :D.

If I seriously thought you hated us all (Christians) I'd take issue with your generalisation. But I believe your a bit of a deeper thinker than that, well at least a bit more intelligent anyway. (please don't prove me wrong).

Seriously if you've got any qualms about us spit em out, I don't have a problem with people making fun at religion. I do however have a problem with people treating God like rubbish and making fun of Him when they don't even try to come to an understanding of who He is, why He does what He does and what He has done for us. To me that stinks of a major slack attack and taking the easy way around hard issues.

Well that's my two Bob's worth.

P.S A Bob is 20c in Oz.

Allcare

Tony H2o


Tiassa,

I'm thinking bout it, soon maybe. See ya..

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Oh, you people <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon7.gif">

Okay, you christians have had 2000 years to make things right on this world. I ask you, what has your faith, or any other religeous faith, accomplished in this world. If anything, religion and radical faith has fueled many of mans barbaric activities in history. What good has it brought on us if it has not made matters worse? Why not work towards a better World future, rather than gamble on its end?

These are probably some very common questions around here, but I haven't seen them in any of the threads.

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It's all very large.

Originally posted by Bowser:
[B
Okay, you christians have had 2000 years to make things right on this world. I ask you, what has your faith, or any other religeous faith, accomplished in this world. If anything, religion and radical faith has fueled many of mans barbaric activities in history. What good has it brought on us if it has not made matters worse? Why not work towards a better World future, rather than gamble on its end?
[/B]

Well, I'll take a stab at this one...

I'll grant you, there has been some bad stuff done in the name of religion. Islamic Jihads, Spanish Inquistion, Holy Wars, and the like. But far and away, wars based on politics and greed have visited the most amount of suffering in the world. Citing: the civil war; World Wars I & II, Korean and Vietnam wars. None of those were holy wars.

I see evidence of religion doing much more good than bad in this world. Look at Catholic Charities, the Salvation Army, Convents, Monastaries and priesthoods all over the world that help the poor. Not to mention the billions of people that have led a more joyful, hopeful life thru religion.



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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Pash--

I see evidence of religion doing much more good than bad in this world. Look at Catholic Charities, the Salvation Army, Convents, Monastaries and priesthoods all over the world that help the poor. Not to mention the billions of people that have led a more joyful, hopeful life thru religion.

Unfortunately, I must dredge up the following concept: I can quite well assert that, if we look at "Christianity" and its effects, as a sum whole, there are few, if any problems, addressed by those Christian organizations that could not have been avoided, were it not for improper assumption and execution of "Christian" ideas.

Now, I admit wholeheartedly that charity is a good thing. But I also wonder why our social structure demands the presence of these problems.

If I cite a halfway-house for Christian teen girls who are pregnant ... well, I can't even address the issues of what this girl didn't know about her sexuality before she used it because it's inappropriate to address sex around children. And so forth. It isn't exclusively Christian, and Christians are not exclusively this way. But I can't quite describe the creepy consistency with which I witnessed this in Catholic school and among various Lutheran youth groups. It does, most certainly, exist throughut all society, but since we're examining a Christian topic ....

But I do have a hard time when a Christian says of the Inquisitions, "Well, what about Stalin?" or some such. Because what else is the point of Christianity in "society" (as opposed to the "individual")? Sorry to put it this way, but: "Aren't Christians supposed to transcend all of that crap?" I mean, isn't that at least part of the point?

thanx,
Tiassa ;)

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

If I cite a halfway-house for Christian teen girls who are pregnant ... well, I can't even address the issues of what this girl didn't know about her sexuality before she Originally posted by tiassa:

used it because it's inappropriate to address sex around children. And so forth. It isn't exclusively Christian, and Christians are not exclusively this way. But I can't quite describe the creepy consistency with which I witnessed this in Catholic school and among various Lutheran youth groups. It does, most certainly, exist throughut all society, but since we're examining a Christian topic ....

It looks like your catholic upbringing didn't quite sit with you, now you're atheist or agnostic, is that right?

I think your point is, "See the catholics won't teach sexuality, so it's their fault the kid got pregnant." Well, for one, I believe they teach that sexuality is to be reserved for a married couple; that it is a beautiful thing. So, they teach abstinence, which is the best policy, regarding "safe sex" (threre is no such thing). If the kid goes against that, and does it anyway, I hope you're not saying Catholics are at fault. At least the Catholics show the good charity to help the person out.


Originally posted by tiassa:

But I do have a hard time when a Christian says of the Inquisitions, "Well, what about Stalin?" or some such. Because what else is the point of Christianity in "society" (as opposed to the "individual")? Sorry to put it this way, but: "Aren't Christians supposed to transcend all of that crap?" I mean, isn't that at least part of the point?



What do you mean, 'transcend' it? I always have a difficult time understanding what you are trying to say :)

The Pope has apologize for past transgressions, if that is what you are looking for.

I think man, thru greed, power hunger and political ambition visits more hurt upon this world than any religious sect.



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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

<font color = "blue">pashley-

"I think man, thru greed, power hunger and political ambition visits more hurt upon this world than any religious sect."
</font>

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> I agree with you there, but I see religion as being a tool for satisfying desires such as greed, power, and ambition. Also, Christianity is nothing more than a floating apology for mans evil. It tells us that we can't rise above our faults, so we just as well throw in the towel and pray for a better end. Tell me this is wrong.


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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited May 10, 2000).]

I think at issue is not the fact that the church or its constituents are imperfect. Being an organization of humans, for humans, and by humans, the church naturally brings with it all the problems normally associated with humanity -- no surprises there.

I think the real issue is that the church claims to be a solution to social problems. This is where they are just plain wrong. In fact the church brings no net benefit that could not be achieved without it, while at the same time characteristically brainwashing its subjects in all sorts of subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Hence, my argument is that religion is generally not beneficial, and all the while it is certainly detrimental to the mind.

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I am; therefore I think.

To you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic. Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same. If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount. But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

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This is The Word of God

<font color = "blue">
Originally posted by Theword and God-

"To you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. I once tried that, but they just keep giving me more of the same trouble. Often they claim to be Christians. To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic. Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same. If you lend money to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, and get back the same amount. But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."</font>

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">That's all very good, and I agree with most of it, but how does it conflict with the activities of the church in politics and individual liberty and individual privacy. How has it weathered through history while in the hands of church authorities. If we were to stand on just the above, I don't think we would have many issues to argue, but Christian involvement goes way beyond this, and I suggest that Christian faith is lost on the words you have posted.



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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited May 10, 2000).]

This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.

You disregard God's commandment but cling to human tradition. How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition.

You nullify the word of God in favor of your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many such things.

This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.

Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do. I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.

Come after me, and I will make you fishers of men. Follow me.


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This is The Word of God

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Psalms 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


GO WORD GO!!!!!!!

:D :D :D

Tony H2o

Bowser: What you have said about the church is correct as far as I can tell. This does not mean though that the Bible is incorrect about things like loving your neighbor. Christians make a poor case for Christianity, that is obvious.

I DO have to disagree with one thing you said. It's all very small! ;)

[This message has been edited by Adlerian (edited May 11, 2000).]