Do you support the idea that Israel's creation was a good idea. Please give the specific reasons in all the groups you chose.

the reason def the way i look at it
Ethinicity- reasons based on the ethinity of the jewish people and the ethnicity of the people current living there before the state's creation.
Archeological- reasons based on the archeological evidence found in the region and surrounding regions
Emotional-reasons based on using emotions. like feeling sorry for them guilty whatever
Religious- any reason that involves religion that doesn't fit into the archeological group
Political- any reason that is political in nature

thank you and please no insults no accusationins of being a zionist or anti-semite

Ethnicity reasons there was no large jewish ethnic population as a major group in the region so i am a no here. Archeological reasons although there is strong evidence of jewish ethnicity here in the past it ends about 2000 years ago and there is evidence of people there before the jewish people so the cut of date on this seems to me to be artificial. Emotional reasons i feel sorry for what happened to the jewish people and i do sympathize and empathize with them. I on an emotional level understand the want to have a country of your own when you have been abused as a people for so long. Religous reasons I do not think a nation should be founded solely for a religious group. so i have to say i am a no. on a side note to this because this will be brought up i do not support the nation of the holy see and if anyone presents a rational and logical reasoning on its disolvement i will support it. Political reasons i am mixed on one hand i know the creation of the country will displace people and make them angry with my nation for supporting it but on the other hand i can see supporting the creation of a nation for a group because than the group has a debt to you.

Political. Unless the USA is willing to give back the Natives' lands and the rest of the world to give back what they "occupy", there is no reason Jews should just legally, officially get land that they hadn't governed in over 2,000 years. Especially not if the cost is the murder and occupation of people who had been living there for centuries

Does it matter? It's a done deal. Israel isn't about to be uncreated, regardless of what some people might want.

Does it matter? It's a done deal. Israel isn't about to be uncreated, regardless of what some people might want.

They could move it. Its not going to be resolved if the current stance (http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2507&Itemid=1) is all there is.

The Hebrew speaking Israeli military radio revealed on Monday the unveiling of a new plan to build approximately 400 more settlement units in northeast Jerusalem

The settlement of Naveh Ya is slated for expansion. This settlement illegal as all are under international law and a major impediment to the peace process, says Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Additionally, under the Road Map all settlement expansion is required to cease.

The military radio station reported that the Israeli-controlled Jerusalem Municipality has issued a tender for 393 new units in order to link Naveh Ya with another East Jerusalem settlement, Adam, located within the West Bank. The Israelis consider this area “the boundary” between Jerusalem and the West Bank.

The Israeli group “Peace Now” considers the latest plan by the Israeli government “a step toward creating geographical contiguity” between East Jerusalem and the West Bank.”

After all, it was a UN decision to create it. Not a native one.

Political. Unless the USA is willing to give back the Natives' lands and the rest of the world to give back what they "occupy", there is no reason Jews should just legally, officially get land that they hadn't governed in over 2,000 years. Especially not if the cost is the murder and occupation of people who had been living there for centuries

2,000 years? Try never. The majority of Jews today don't have Hebrew ancestry.

Does it matter? It's a done deal. Israel isn't about to be uncreated, regardless of what some people might want.

Sure it will. Power has always been short-lived for the Jews. This time won't be any different.

Does it matter? It's a done deal. Israel isn't about to be uncreated, regardless of what some people might want.

yup.

I'm not moving out of Canada and getting back on a sailing ship to France.

The Celts in Wales won't be flocking back to mainland Europe.

Does anyone really believe that if Isreal was to disappear tomorrow that the Palestinians or any others in the region would be better off? I spent 5 months with the Canadian military (UN) in the Sinai and 6 months on the Syrian-Israeli border. The only Arabs living a decent lifestyle were those under Israeli occupation. More importantly, the only ones living not in fear were those under occupation.

Was the creation of Israel 'a mistake'? Maybe, but so what? It's 2008 and not 1948. If the Arabs didn't have Israel as an excuse fir their own ineptitude, they'd have to create another excuse. I feel sorry for the Palestinian children but until their parents get their act together and renounce all violence, nothing will change. The Israelis will just keep giving them a spanking as they have for 60 years.

yup.

I'm not moving out of Canada and getting back on a sailing ship to France.

The Celts in Wales won't be flocking back to mainland Europe.

Does anyone really believe that if Isreal was to disappear tomorrow that the Palestinians or any others in the region would be better off? I spent 5 months with the Canadian military (UN) in the Sinai and 6 months on the Syrian-Israeli border. The only Arabs living a decent lifestyle were those under Israeli occupation. More importantly, the only ones living not in fear were those under occupation.

Was the creation of Israel 'a mistake'? Maybe, but so what? It's 2008 and not 1948. If the Arabs didn't have Israel as an excuse fir their own ineptitude, they'd have to create another excuse. I feel sorry for the Palestinian children but until their parents get their act together and renounce all violence, nothing will change. The Israelis will just keep giving them a spanking as they have for 60 years.

The settlements are in the West Bank where the Palestinians have got their act together. Doesn't seem to be helping them.

How soon do you think before they realise this and violence escalates there? The settlements don't stop and now the West Bank is becoming another prison. Like Gaza.

The settlements are in the West Bank where the Palestinians have got their act together. Doesn't seem to be helping them.

How soon do you think before they realise this and violence escalates there? The settlements don't stop and now the West Bank is becoming another prison. Like Gaza.

No skin off of Israel's nose. Israeli children tap away on their laptops, take swimming lessons, eat pizza, etc. Life isn't any different than in a western democracy.

The Palestinian children, in contrast, spend most of the day in the streets, have little prospect of a future and role models are hate and fear.

It's not the Israelis who suffer from the status quo. Their children are leading quality lives. It's the Palestinians who suffered from the status quo 50 years ago, 20 years ago, today, etc. Israel has no imperative to change. Israel isn't going away. Israel is not going to compromise it's security. The Palestinians can either accept that or condemn their own children to more poverty and hatred. If the headlines are the same in 20 years, it's not the Israelis who lost out in life...it's the Palestinians.

It's not the Israelis who suffer from the status quo. Their children are leading quality lives. It's the Palestinians who suffered from the status quo 50 years ago, 20 years ago, today, etc. Israel has no imperative to change. Israel isn't going away. Israel is not going to compromise it's security. The Palestinians can either accept that or condemn their own children to more poverty and hatred. If the headlines are the same in 20 years, it's not the Israelis who lost out in life...it's the Palestinians.

Except of course that Israeli children who play on laptops grow up to become IDF snipers who shoot children in the head. Israel is already a failed state that is steadily losing support for its creation.

And no, the Palestinians can persevere. Its not like there is a lack of them either.

If Israelis can return after 2000 years, theres still a good many left to the Palestinians.

Also, if they want a western democracy why did they immigrate to a biblical land in an eastern society?

And yeah I bet they're enjoying themselves. Pretty much all colonials did at the expense of the natives.

I can't give a yes or no answer. The idea of a Jewish state was an admirable one, but this idea was not necessarily the reason for the presence of any individual Jew in Palestine. Religious reasons were probably the primary motivation, as Jewish culture never lost it's spiritual connections to the holy land. Political reasons as well as the promise of Zionism influenced Jews to seek self-rule. Certainly considerations of the Palestinians should have been given more weight. Strategic reasons involving warfare led to expansion of borders and the present situation.

The idea of a Jewish state was an admirable one

Why?

Let me preface by saying that the idea of a Jewish state did not initially depend on settling in Palestine. The move towards self-determination is usually admirable, and especially in the case of Jews, who have suffered much discrimination. It's a proactive step towards ending the situation in which discrimination is possible.

Let me preface by saying that the idea of a Jewish state did not initially depend on settling in Palestine. The move towards self-determination is usually admirable, and especially in the case of Jews, who have suffered much discrimination. It's a proactive step towards ending the situation in which discrimination is possible.

How can a state based on religion reduce discrimination?

Ha ha, well it certainly reduces discrimination against that religion.

Ha ha, well it certainly reduces discrimination against that religion.

Even outside that state? Wouldn't there be a greater possibility of people elsewhere considering that all people of that religion keep to that state only? Especially if the state has demographic issues with other religions?

Yes, it only works of you live there. Or, I suppose, if you are a citizen of a state that constitutionally protects freedom of religion, like the US.

Yes, it only works of you live there. Or, I suppose, if you are a citizen of a state that constitutionally protects freedom of religion, like the US.

So freedom of religion supercedes the right of natives to inhabit their lands?

Anyone who wants to create a religious state is free to ethnically cleanse people to maintain a demographic majority?

As I already explained, there is no black and white answer. Is it moral to be a territorial ape, staking off your piece of the Planet? Probably not, and that goes for both sides.

As I already explained, there is no black and white answer..

Actually there is. The answer is that all native inhabitants have a right to live on their lands. If not you don't need an army.

Does that mean that those who do not have an army are fair game?

What suggestions would you give to the Palestinians in the West Bank who are prohibited from building their homes on their own land while the occupying army protects the construction of illegal settlements?

What options do they have?

I may acknowledge such a theoretical right and still maintain that it isn't possible to grant it at the present time, due to considerations of self-preservation.

I may acknowledge such a theoretical right and still maintain that it isn't possible to grant it at the present time, due to considerations of self-preservation.


Thats your gun culture speaking. Which means that your self preservation lasts only as long as your bullets do.

Except of course that Israeli children who play on laptops grow up to become IDF snipers who shoot children in the head. Israel is already a failed state that is steadily losing support for its creation.

And no, the Palestinians can persevere. Its not like there is a lack of them either.

If Israelis can return after 2000 years, theres still a good many left to the Palestinians.

Also, if they want a western democracy why did they immigrate to a biblical land in an eastern society?

And yeah I bet they're enjoying themselves. Pretty much all colonials did at the expense of the natives.

Of course some of those children will grow up to be snipers. Glad you can finally grasp some reality. Israel in not going away and Israeli snipers are not going away. They will shoot be prepared to shoot Palestinians in the head 20 years from now.

You have to step out of your fantasy ideal world into the real world. 'Coulds' and 'shoulds' and 'it's not fair' doesn't move a single physical molecule to change what 'is'.

Native Americans aren't getting Manhatten back and the Mexicans aren't getting Texas. The Picts don't get the land occupied by the Celts. Ain't going to happen no matter how many 'it's not fairs' you cite. The status quo is not the end of anything for Israel. It's the same as it was 50 years ago and as long as the Palstinians advocate violence, Israel will keep spanking them. If you've tried to walk through the wall ten times and keep bouncing off, the eleventh attempt is not going to work. The Palestinians keep trying to walk through the wall...it's not the Israelis with the bloody forehead.

Maybe Israel should have never came into existence. So what? The reality is what exists today and Israel is not going anywhere and Israel will remain largely a Jewish state. No amount of 'it's not fair' is going to change it.

I know full well that many Palestinians are armed and angry. Do you expect the Israelis to give in to a "right of return" in order to be slaughtered? Because that's what would happen. Would that slaughter be moral? Would that immorality make up for the alleged immorality of establishing Israel? An eye for an eye?

I know full well that many Palestinians are armed and angry. Do you expect the Israelis to give in to a "right of return" in order to be slaughtered? Because that's what would happen. Would that slaughter be moral? Would that immorality make up for the alleged immorality of establishing Israel? An eye for an eye?

your failing to see things perfectly clear many palestians are angry because they were NOT allowed to return to there homes and land

this is dissolving into a pissing match with no one giving reasons give reasons or just shut the fuck up

(Skipping over the 'shut up' gestapo)

I know full well that many Palestinians are armed and angry. Do you expect the Israelis to give in to a "right of return" in order to be slaughtered? Because that's what would happen. Would that slaughter be moral? Would that immorality make up for the alleged immorality of establishing Israel? An eye for an eye?

So true. Why not make Israel a basketcase like the rest of the Arab world. Violence is much higher in Palestinian run lands than in Israel. Why not spread it around more?

(Skipping over the 'shut up' gestapo)



So true. Why not make Israel a basketcase like the rest of the Arab world. Violence is much higher in Palestinian run lands than in Israel. Why not spread it around more?

DON'T EVER REFER TO ME WITH NAZI TERMONOLGY AGAIN. and my point of giving reason or shutting up is perfectly reasonable considering my opening posts or did you not read it

this is dissolving into a pissing match with no one giving reasons give reasons or just shut the fuck up

You started yet another thread about Israel on this forum and feign disgust when the usual suspects show up with the usual shitshow arguments.

Israel is a done deal. Move along.

You started yet another thread about Israel on this forum and feign disgust when the usual suspects show up with the usual shitshow arguments.

Israel is a done deal. Move along.

what i am trying to do is get people to understand the other sides motives and reasons because until that happens peace will be an impossibility

your failing to see things perfectly clear many palestians are angry because they were NOT allowed to return to there homes and land

I am aware of that.

I know full well that many Palestinians are armed and angry. Do you expect the Israelis to give in to a "right of return" in order to be slaughtered? Because that's what would happen. Would that slaughter be moral? Would that immorality make up for the alleged immorality of establishing Israel? An eye for an eye?

Does slaughtering Palestinians make it fair? Should Palestinians have to suffer Israel?

Both sides are just a bunch of crybabies, they are acting like five year olds.

Does it matter? It's a done deal. Israel isn't about to be uncreated, regardless of what some people might want.

A point I made in the other thread PJ started, which is now closed. Apparently, he won't be denied on this topic. Go PJ!

And PJ, if you are trying to "get people to understand the other sides motives," etc., then the least you could do is clean up your ridiculous posts. I'm far from perfect when it comes to grammar, but at least I try to present people with something decent to look at when they do me the honor of reading my posts. You, on the other hand, continue to want to talk about some of the world's most complicated issues in language and text that would make a fifth grader blush...

Should Palestinians have to suffer Israel? Yes.

Should Palestinians have to suffer Israel? Yes.

Why?

Doesn't everything happen for a reason ? God works in mysterious way I guess..

Why?

Because as long as Israel is attacked, Palestinians will suffer death, destruction, and further losses. They will suffer less from merely having less land than they did in the past.

Because as long as Israel is attacked, Palestinians will suffer death, destruction, and further losses. They will suffer less from merely having less land than they did in the past.

So they have to suffer Israel because they have no choice in the matter.

Just like the Jews in Germany.

No one is forcing Israel to expand settlements.

Expanding settlements are a reaction to Palestinian violence, and a bargaining chip for future negotiations. Jews in Germany were not attacking Germans, except in the newspapers.

Expanding settlements are a reaction to Palestinian violence, and a bargaining chip for future negotiations. Jews in Germany were not attacking Germans, except in the newspapers.

And the violence is a result of occupation. And Israel has clearly said that settlements will define the area Israel wants to keep.

Israel says the construction is within areas it intends to keep in any future peace deal with the Palestinians. It defends its construction of the West Bank barrier by saying it protects Israel from attackers, but the International Court of Justice has termed the project illegal.

And the occupation is the result of the second intifada. It's all negotiable.

And the occupation is the result of the second intifada. It's all negotiable.

Not really. Israel has never kept its promises. That alone makes me feel sure that they will not allow a Palestinian state until they have managed to either kill all the Palestinians or occupy all the land they want. Even then, I feel sure they will want to spread towards Syria, Lebanon and Egypt. There is clearly a group in Israel which believes that the silence of the world can be used to expand its borders.

And Palestinians aren't unified enough to make, much less keep promises.

The big difference- the reason Palestinians aren't sympathized with to a greater degree, is that they are surrounded by predominately Arab (and Muslim) states.

If the situation were reversed, and Jews were limited to a small occupied territory, yet were surrounded by other Jewish states, their violent resistance would make no sense.

And Palestinians aren't unified enough to make, much less keep promises.

The big difference- the reason Palestinians aren't sympathized with to a greater degree, is that they are surrounded by predominately Arab (and Muslim) states.

If the situation were reversed, and Jews were limited to a small occupied territory, yet were surrounded by other Jewish states, their violent resistance would make no sense.

Thats because the West views all Arab countries as some kind of homogeneous group. Same as they view Africa probably. To them the idea that these are separate groups who have maintained distinct identities for thousands of years is a concept that is not possible to grasp.

Nope..not for us dumb westerners..man are we so stupid and dumb.

DON'T EVER REFER TO ME WITH NAZI TERMONOLGY AGAIN. and my point of giving reason or shutting up is perfectly reasonable considering my opening posts or did you not read it

Seig Heil, Mein fuhrer.
and no, Mein Herr, you don't decide who can post or not,

Nope..not for us dumb westerners..man are we so stupid and dumb.

Quick, is a Syrian an Arab?:D

<no cheating>

Thats because the West views all Arab countries as some kind of homogeneous group. Same as they view Africa probably. To them the idea that these are separate groups who have maintained distinct identities for thousands of years is a concept that is not possible to grasp.

If it's not possible then what's your point? Israel will remain the dominant force and the Palestinians are a basketcase. As it as 50 years ago and as it will be 50 years from now.

If it's not possible then what's your point? Israel will remain the dominant force and the Palestinians are a basketcase. As it as 50 years ago and as it will be 50 years from now.

The point is that those people who are providing Israel with the means to kill and subjugate Palestinians need to wake up and realise that Palestinians are not going anywhere. No matter how many years you pound them into the ground.

Huh

You said it's not possible and the Israelis are not going to stop killing Palestinian.

I still don't get your point. Have to wake up or what? first you claim everything is inevitable and then that it will change? :bugeye:

Which is it

What world are you living in? the real one where you describe the way things are or some Kumbaya world? ::rolleyes:

Huh

You said it's not possible and the Israelis are not going to stop killing Palestinian.

I still don't get your point. Have to wake up or what? first you claim everything is inevitable and then that it will change? :bugeye:

Which is it

What world are you living in? the real one where you describe the way things are or some Kumbaya world? ::rolleyes:

You're probably confused by the fact that I said the west. Israelis are not the west, they are very much the east, especially the ones born there. I've met Jews from Israel and though they may hate to hear this, they think exactly like Arabs.:D

They are awake, Israelis know that, they want peace, but not at the expense of their security.

They are awake, Israelis know that, they want peace, but not at the expense of their security.

I think you'll find that the peace AND security of the Israelis is with the Palestinians, not against them.

Does it matter? It's a done deal. Israel isn't about to be uncreated, regardless of what some people might want.

It's certainly possible.

I think you'll find that the peace AND security of the Israelis is with the Palestinians, not against them.

What does that mean?

What does that mean?

I think it would benefit both of them to work together. After all, historically, the people of Palestine have always welcomed the Jews. Maybe that is what Israel should focus on instead of just pushing them into a "gated community".

You mean one state together. I think that's ridiculous and nieve, although I appreciate the sentiment.

No, a one-state solution is best.
Would the greatest thing not be the Palestinians and Israelis under one country, one government, one flag, one banner, together in Unity, in strength, in faith, in prosperity, with neither their nation being called "Israel" nor "Palestine" but rather what it is, the Holy Land.

Together, like the Trojans and their horse.

Together, like the Trojans and their horse.

Seriously now, is that not preferable? It is......and it is not impossible. Islamic extremism, as well as Zionist extremist, must be eliminated and instead we must realize our true enemy [the West] and unite. For, has Western civilization not been dominated by the Semites? Jesus Christ was a Hebrew, a Semite, and he alone is perhaps the most influential of any man ever in history. This is our power; our influence, and ultimately Israel would be a valuable asset to us. Us, the Semitic Federation



---nifty speech huh!

Seriously now, is that not preferable? It is......and it is not impossible. Islamic extremism, as well as Zionist extremist, must be eliminated and instead we must realize our true enemy [the West] and unite. For, has Western civilization not been dominated by the Semites? Jesus Christ was a Hebrew, a Semite, and he alone is perhaps the most influential of any man ever in history. This is our power; our influence, and ultimately Israel would be a valuable asset to us. Us, the Semitic Federation



---nifty speech huh!

You sound as nutty as the zionists.