What is your opinion on suicide? I was thinking about it. Suicide is commiting to an extreme. The oposite would probably be Buddha. A person who commits suicide realizes the utter "absurdity of life", and with this total realization, follows through with action. A person with the Buddha mindset realizes the absolute beauty to life and follows through with action. The Buddha claims life is beautiful and worth the bad times... The suicidal says even the beautiful isn't worth it, it would have been easier to have never been born. Now my question is this; who is right, and who is mistaken?

I'm not really answering your question but i just wanted to say that people that commit suicide are very brave and have a lot of courage. Most people think they are "wimps" by trying to leave their life if maybe they think they aren't having such a good one or even if they just have some mental problems. But it takes a lot of heart and courage to actually commit suicide. Then everyone gets all mushy to the relatives of the person who died not thinking of a brave person he/she was.

I agree completely!!! They say suicide is giving up... But to them, it's going on with a meaningless life that's giving up. A man of action does something about it.

I'm thinking of overdosing morphine before I'm too old. Being old sucks and I want to quit while I still can enjoy life.

If I have the benifit of knowing i'm going to die (ie Cancer, or some other disease), I've decided I'm going to go sky diving, appreciate the beauty of the planet, and let it kill me. I dunno, I'd find that almost euphoric. To know you're about to die, to do so in such a non-threatening way, and to be able to completely accept your death, and for the first and only time see your life as a whole... Better then being hit by a car and never even knowing I died.

Actualy , I wouldn't agree that all people who take their lives are 'brave' or 'couragous'. Though I admit that down at the bottom everyone is shit-scared of dying and crossing this instinctual barrier is probably extremely difficult.
But most people who kill themselves aren't doing to conquere the fear of death, but because they feel their life is meaningless, that they are worth absolutely nothing and the world would be better off without them.
I would however (as the Buddah fan I am) be more open to the view that life and the simple beauty of it in it's self is worth living for and that no man is better than the next, and 'worth' is just something that we give ourselves or deny ourselves, and it's nothing but an unneccesary illusion.:p


I'm thinking of overdosing morphine before I'm too old. Being old sucks and I want to quit while I still can enjoy life.

-the way i would go!

Well my reason for dying is life lol. I so much enjoy it that I don't want come to a point where I can not do it. simple as that

But most people who kill themselves aren't doing to conquere the fear of death, but because they feel their life is meaningless, that they are worth absolutely nothing and the world would be better off without them.
I find this the sad suicide. But what about when the suicide is beacuse of the "absurdity of life". The person isn't horribly depressed, or have a low self-worth... He just realizes there is no point... It's not that they feel worthless, or that the world would be better off without them. It's that it doesn't matter. He'd be better off without the world.

people that commit suicide are wimps and losers. end of sentence.

I believe that a person's life is only his and no one's other and that he can do with it whatever he wants.

that may be true, but, how selfish is that??? think of all the hurts and pains he will cause other's who care for him? they have to try to cope and come to terms with his suicide, and, more than likely they never will 100%.

that may be true, but, how selfish is that?
does it really matter?
(if the reasons are strong enough)

But when life becomes insufferable how long are you expected to stick around for your loved ones?

"Just slit our wrists like cheap coupons
And say that death was on sale today"

Why should you live if life isn't worth living?

You don't owe your life to anyone, so if you decide to end it, it's your decision, and your's alone.

Originally posted by notme2000
What is your opinion on suicide? I was thinking about it. Suicide is commiting to an extreme. The oposite would probably be Buddha. A person who commits suicide realizes the utter "absurdity of life", and with this total realization, follows through with action. A person with the Buddha mindset realizes the absolute beauty to life and follows through with action. The Buddha claims life is beautiful and worth the bad times... The suicidal says even the beautiful isn't worth it, it would have been easier to have never been born. Now my question is this; who is right, and who is mistaken?


I don't believe that absurdity conflicts with believing that life is beautiful.

According to Camus suicide is admitting defeat to the absurd. The first consequence of absurdity is not suicide but revolt.

From the Myth of Sysyphus:

"That revolt gives life its value. Spread out over the whole length of a life, it restores its majesty to that life. To a man devoid of blinders, there is no finer sight than that of the intelligence at grips with a reality that trancends it. The sight of human pride is unequaled"

"It is essential to die unreconciled and not of one's own free will. Suicide is a repudiation. The absurd man can only drain everything to the bitter end, and deplete himself"

My own opinion is that life is absurd and is also beautiful. These two viewpoints do not have to be contradictory.
:m: :)

Fleeing from the Absurd should hold no terrors. Why live a miserable life simply to affirm a point of honour?

Life is not wholly beautiful. A simple reading of the evening news will tell you that. The vicious and weak have always oppressed those who are compassionate and weak. They always will. And they are not wrong, nor will God avenge them.

Right and wrong are fictions and God is a myth. You live because you think you are happy? Happiness is impossible. I have never been happy, and I have never seen nor heard of a happy person.

You live because you think you are loved? Everyone you love will reject you or die.

You live for the future? The future is simply the present removed by a passage of time. Were you happy in the past? The now is your future from the past's frame of reference.

You live because you have a place in the world of man? You will never be accepted by this world unless you decide to be it's slave - and I assure you, you are already its slave.

You are alone in a savage and indifferent cosmos, and you will always be alone.

That said, what are you going to do about it?

The only way to exist is to repudidate. If you are not happy, repudidate happiness. If you are not loved, repudidate the idea that you need to be loved. "I love" is always stronger than "I am loved". If you are a slave to alien values -and I again assure you that you are- break those values.

Suicide is weak, but so is living the way most humans live.

Are you strong enough to live and not be a slave?



Which would be my own brand of metaphysical rebellion.

I don't believe suicide is as intellectual a choice as many on this thread are assuming. I think it occurs when someone is in such enormous pain that to live is like walking around on stinging jellyfish. I think it is usually instinctual, not intellectual.

Originally posted by Xev
Fleeing from the Absurd should hold no terrors. Why live a miserable life simply to affirm a point of honour?
Indeed why flee from the absurd at all?

Life is not wholly beautiful. A simple reading of the evening news will tell you that.
Beauty is an aesthetic judgement and as such will differ from person to person. It is fully possible for a person to find death and destruction to be beautiful. However, I agree that life is not wholly beautiful for the vast majority of people.
The vicious and weak have always oppressed those who are compassionate and weak. They always will. And they are not wrong, nor will God avenge them.
Are all people weak? How do you define weakness?
There have certainly been cases in history where compassionate people have attracted followers and beaten down the vicious. Although, the state you described is more common, it is not the only one possible.

Right and wrong are fictions and God is a myth. You live because you think you are happy? Happiness is impossible. I have never been happy, and I have never seen nor heard of a happy person.

You live because you think you are loved? Everyone you love will reject you or die.
I agree that god, along with objective right and wrong are fictions. However right and wrong, like beauty, exist as aesthetic jugements we can make as individuals. As for your never having been happy or met a happy person, I have to ask what your definition of happiness is? I define happiness as a lack of phsyical or emotional discomfort or boredom. I am currently happy most of the time by this standard as are many people I know.
I have also known people who have died surrounded by those who love them.


You live because you have a place in the world of man? You will never be accepted by this world unless you decide to be it's slave - and I assure you, you are already its slave.
Nobody can ever be accepted by everyone, even those who conform to their environment at every oppurtunity are not accepted by the entire world as they are rejected by those who do not.
Everyone can be said to be a slave of the world as no one can ever escape it. To attempt to break free of the world completely is futile. You can never escape, for example, the laws of physics.



The only way to exist is to repudidate. If you are not happy, repudidate happiness. If you are not loved, repudidate the idea that you need to be loved. "I love" is always stronger than "I am loved". If you are a slave to alien values -and I again assure you that you are- break those values.
If you repudiate everything and replace it with nothing then what is left?
What do YOU live for?

My views on the matter

A person who commits suicide is either brave or stupid. It takes mocksy to end it all. And coming to the conclusion that there is nothing left for you takes a lot of thought.
But, most people who do commit suicide could rebuild their lives and start afresh.
If they commit suicide because something has happened to them, then they are running away from their problem and more than likely putting a burden on someone else ie Family.
It is very selfish in that respect.

I would only commit suicide if the only alternative was a fate worse than death (ie Stranded on an island with a welshman :eek: )
I would never, ever want someone close to me to be upset over my death, especially if I took my own life.

"Just slit our wrists like cheap coupons
And say that death was on sale today"
A great example from a lyrical genuis. Thank you Xev for bringing it into the topic :)

I brought up the question because of this:

I had been suicidal for 7 years of my life. For 7 years I was positive it was the best conclusion for myself, however I did not because I did not want to put my loved ones through that kind of pain... My suicide thoughts had nothing to do with feeling unloved or anything, but life seemed nothing but a burden, a job that was expected of me. And I felt like calling in sick. But these days I'm alot closer to the Bhuddha mindset, so to speak, as oposed to the suicidal one. But I feel like I'm walking on eggshells, like any second I'll be back to my old suicidal self. I can't figure out if this new-found hapiness and confidence is real or an illusion... 7 years of experience had me pretty set in my beliefs...

its nither brave or cowerdly

its a form of maddness

this is from someone who most people here know almost did it and was only saved thanks to some of the members here

As,
How can we know for certain hapiness isn't madness? Just in a favorable form...

who knows but my point is its not a rational choice

i can give details of what i mean but i would rather not

jps:
Indeed why flee from the absurd at all?

Why not?

Beauty is an aesthetic judgement and as such will differ from person to person.

True.

It is fully possible for a person to find death and destruction to be beautiful.

As I do.

If you repudiate everything and replace it with nothing then what is left?

Yourself.

What do YOU live for?

Merlot. :)

Thor:
A person who commits suicide is either brave or stupid. It takes mocksy to end it all. And coming to the conclusion that there is nothing left for you takes a lot of thought.

I think it's a bit of both, and I think it's just a matter of priorities.
Sometimes, life just is not worth living.

It is very selfish in that respect.

Selfishness is good.
Besides that, if you can't be selfish about your life, what is the point of anything?

notme2000:
but life seemed nothing but a burden, a job that was expected of me. And I felt like calling in sick.

I know the feeling. I feel it fairly constantly, but I know why and I fix that.

Asguard:

Suicide is not at all a form of madness. For many, it's the only sanity they'll ever experience.

Originally posted by Xev


Merlot.

As good a reason as any I suppose.

t kind of depends on what kind of suicide it is. If its the kind where a lonely person blows out their brains, yeah that's wrong.

But if its the kind where you know your going to die a long horrible death then its okay in my book. People deserve to die with dignity. You go Mr. K!

"There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that
is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts
to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the
rest---whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether
the mind has nine or twelve catagories---comes afterwards."
-Albert Camus, The Myth of Sisyphus

Myth Of Sisyphus is what inspired me to start this thread actually.

I encourage suicide though I would not do it myself. The world has too many people and the fewer the better, provided there is enough to maintain at least one vibrant civilization on the planet.

The downfall of another is most often to my slight benifit. There is less competition for jobs, rescources, and mates. By animal side bids you to your task.

I'll just put down some thoughts.

Is life absurd? Yes it's quite riculouse!

In my opinion humans are just too handy and innovative for their own good! We harness fire, instantly we cannot immagine living without it. We invent electricity to make living so much easier, how did they ever amage before?? We build electron microscopes to discover the workings of matter.
But to get our part of this comfortable world we work, work for the people who hold the rights to that comfort and who sell it to us so that we will do their work for them...
And now the moment you are born, you are given a name and a number and are expected to live your life working for those people who's job you are to do. They have people making sure that other people are dependent on them to live.
For the most part this dependence is mental, taught to us from birth.
Now does this make sense? nope, its just stupid to me. And you know what the worst thing is, I couldn't imagine living without these comforts and am therefore a slave, a slave to the system and myself. Ridiculouse.

So why do people kill themselves? This is verry individual, but in the end it probably ammounts to people who are not a part of society and believe they are not good enough for it. Or people who realize how absurd this all is and that they cannot live with out it and the only way to escape is not to live at all.

So the root of all evil- Society.

moonman,

you should read Galapagos by Kurt Vonnegut.
One of the main themes in it is the idea that human intelligence is an evolutionary mistake that eventually goes away. :)

Ooh! That sounds interesting! Maybe I'll pick up a copy of that book soon!

"To die, to sleep...To sleep, perchance to dream. Ay there's the rub, for in that sleep of death what dreams may come when we have shuffled off this mortal coil, must give us pause..."
This agonizing statement from a suicide contemplating Hamlet is my favorite line of Shakespeare's.

One that chooses death over life is indeed the bravest of men. It is a testament to the incredible will humans can possess.

Yet it is also an act of extreme cruelty to the others in your life.

Has anyone read "The sorrows of young werther" by Goethe? One of my favorite books, I highly recommend it. I believe Goethe was trying to show the selfishness of werther...but I ended up admiring him when it was over.

notme2000,

What is your opinion on suicide? I was thinking about it. Suicide is commiting to an extreme. The oposite would probably be Buddha. A person who commits suicide realizes the utter "absurdity of life", and with this total realization, follows through with action. A person with the Buddha mindset realizes the absolute beauty to life and follows through with action. The Buddha claims life is beautiful and worth the bad times... The suicidal says even the beautiful isn't worth it, it would have been easier to have never been born. Now my question is this; who is right, and who is mistaken?

People commit suicide because they cannot stand anymore the hurt. They don't choose to die because they don't want, they choose to die because they can't even stand to breath anymore. I have been there many times... (today included!!!). I completly lost my breath and couldn't breath anymore. I had to go, sit down quietly and start to concentrate myself. It was hurting so much that I couldn't stand anymore. I looked at my mind and saw that I've created a system of belief based on people that were misunderstood and finished crazy. I remembered that one night, last week, I though and believed that I was going to finish or crazy, or dead. In less than a week, the process began. So, when I found that out, I emptied my mind and controlled my thoughts. I started to set up another belief - that I can be happy despite of all the hurt. It has been working for some 3 hours... :)

"I looked at my mind and saw that I've created a system of belief based on people that were misunderstood and finished crazy. I remembered that one night, last week, I though and believed that I was going to finish or crazy, or dead. In less than a week, the process began."

Nelson, from all the experiences I've heard about (mainly through my mom and her old friends from the psych ward), insane people would never say they are insane. If you are capable of and actually do say to yourself that you are "insane" or "crazy" - you aren't. And I say this with absolutely no solid proof to back me, but I firmly believe that it is likely true. It's like people who think they're "individualistic" or "original". They generally aren't.

I don't think I'm insane... but I had my mind set to be insane. In this sense, my thoughts were leading to insanity... and I didn't know that...

People commit suicide because they cannot stand anymore the hurt.
Different people commit suicide for different reasons. The ones who commit suicide because life is unbearable is tragic. But what about the ones who commit suicide simply because they have no reason to live it? They're in no real pain or suffering, life is completely bearable... They just don't see a point in bearing it... We die in the end anyway, what's the point of prolonging life?

That's a horrible though... Why would someone think like that!?

Why is that horrible? It may be detrimental to life, but who says life is an ultimate good? That was my question, is what if those who commit suicide are the ones who actually "get it".

(Not that I'm about to go commit suicide, just been reading alot of Albert Camus)

If you don't value life, how possibly could you "get it"?...
Without your life, what do you have? Life is worth living... it may be hard... but it is also the problems and challenges that make life interesting. Imagine how boring would be if everything would be perfect...! (unless God has some way out of it...I dunno...:eek: :bugeye: ).

notme:

Aww drats, and here I was about to ask you to will me your cd collection. ;)

Seriously, I understand. I contemplate suicide as an intellectual excersize on a daily basis.

Psh, cds are primitive. I have an mp3 player!!!! :D

P.S. Love the sig, Xev, lol

notme:

Thanks! I just changed it, but here are more dead baby jokes than you could shake a pitchfork at!

http://thisisacryforhelp.com/jokes/babyj.htm

Q: What's red, bubbly, and scratches at the window before exploding?

A: A baby in a microwave.

Truthseeker...
You're not getting my point. I'm not saying they do get it, just like you shouldn't say they don't. How could you know? I've been suicidal, and at the time I thought hapiness was a form of illusion... Now I'm happy and I think suicide is a form of illusion... So is it just subjective? And if it is, do you really have the right to judge someone who commits suicide? Simply because they didn't live up to your standards of life doesn't make them wrong. How do you know you live up to theirs? And are you going to be pretentious enough to declare your standards in life better than theirs? I hope not.

The only reason you find life worth living is instincts... It's in your instincts to survive. What if those who commit suicide are the ones strong enough to see outside their instincts, and see how pointless life truly is...

notme2000,

I know what is your point. I'm discussing something in a similar way in the thread "Who is crazy?"...
I never judge anyone (lest I'm judged...)...

The only reason you find life worth living is instincts... It's in your instincts to survive. What if those who commit suicide are the ones strong enough to see outside their instincts, and see how pointless life truly is...

Do YOU think life is pointless?
Well... if life is everything that you get, giving it up seems a little... strange... Of course you need to have some kind of strengh to kill yourself... It's hard to deal with different perspectives... we need to look beyond what we can see and understand with our own knowledge...

Do YOU think life is pointless?
Yes. But I don't realize it to an extent I'm willing to follow through with action. I have given meaning to my life, which I view as artificial, but "real" to me none-the-less.
Well... if life is everything that you get, giving it up seems a little... strange
It's not like you'd miss it (I don't believe in an afterlife). To let go of everything is to be pure, right? So why not let go of EVERYTHING, even life, and yourself... You would be purely zero... Doesn't get much purer than that.

The meaning of life is infinite. You give it. That's why it seems meaningless. But life couldn't be more meaningfull! Whats makes life meaningfull is its own "meaninglessness"...

:confused: :eek:


i think i know what you're trying to say TruthSeeker... do you mean, that life is what you make of it??

Yes.

If they commit suicide because something has happened to them, then they are running away from their problem and more than likely putting a burden on someone else ie Family.

Or it might be the exact opposite: for example, a person who has a debilitating mental illness. This person might use suicide to solve the problems of:

- burden on family members, in terms of money and time in caring for him/her.

- The emotional trauma of seeing their family member's mind turn to shit in front of them. Not being able to remember who they are, hold a conversation etc.

- retaining their dignity and independence.




What is your opinion on suicide? I was thinking about it. Suicide is commiting to an extreme. The oposite would probably be Buddha.

Wouldn't the Buddha say that life is duhkha and that you should seek to escape the chain of suffering?

Has anyone read "The sorrows of young werther" by Goethe?

Yes, interestingly it lead to a plague of suicides across Europe and was banned in several places.

Personally..
I believe suicide happens because of bad foundations of life (like love :) ).
It's like starting off the game in a bad way, and just pressing "start new game...".
Surely, the person can usually be changed by external help, but what's the point - in most cases it would delete the real existance of that person. THen you would probably have a personality that's half-baked, half-cooked. In most cases it's easier too just make a new baby.

If you equate some thing in this world with your life, you are sick already.
I know if I ever committed suicide it would be for a good reason. The reason for the meaning of my existance would be gone then probably.

I agree with Xev for not having any values (at least no values equalling your life).

Xev:

I know a better dead baby joke:
-What's the worst thing a blind, deaf baby can get for Christmas?
-Cancer.

You will never be accepted by this world unless you decide to be it's slave - and I assure you, you are already its slave. Or you make this world of man your slave.. Which is exactly my plan! :)

Wouldn't the Buddha say that life is duhkha and that you should seek to escape the chain of suffering?
Mind you the only way you can escape it is to become a buddha/Immortal yourself. So if buddhas right you just pile up more garbage from past lives and suffer ever more. Sounds kinda shitty don't it.

Excuse me ndrs, but I'm currently candidate for "Supreme Imperial Dictator".

Now get back to the fields, peon.

first of all...to those so inclined to off themselves: do you even realize the great odds of you being here[life on earth] in the first place?? it's staggering...it's a gift. think about it, please.

oh, yeah...and, nobody promised it was going to be a bed of roses.

I remeber the suicidal days too. That pain can end. For me it ended when I started to understand. Mind you my mind was pretty messed up. I wanted to die to escape and that was when I was weak and confused. But I fixed up my mind (meditaion and martial arts). Yeah pot and mushrooms too. So I guess if you had a clear mind and you still wanted suicide for some reson or another I guess it would be your right.

I can't imagine wanting to take one's own life. Whether you are religious and consider your life a miracle, or completely atheist and see life as a very very very unlikely bunch of coincidences, either way, it seems like too much of a gift to give up so easily. Ok, so your life might not seem like much of a gift at the moment. I say, give it some time. Don't sit around whining about it, go make something of it. Everyone gets depressed, or goes throught hard times, but theres always SOMETHING to keep you going. I'm not going to die without my life making a difference. It's not, "I want it to make a difference". I say IT WILL. Call me idealistic if you want, but to me it seems much better than the alternative. Life's a gift, enjoy it while it lasts, and maybe even try to give something back.

I wanted to die to escape and that was when I was weak and confused.
And my point is this: What if escaping is the only logical choice? What if the only way you've strengthened since then is in ignorance. It takes a strong man to create an illusion as powerful as hapiness.

I can't imagine wanting to take one's own life. Whether you are religious and consider your life a miracle, or completely atheist and see life as a very very very unlikely bunch of coincidences, either way, it seems like too much of a gift to give up so easily.

If life is a gift, it's one of those moldy ass fruitcakes that get passed around every holiday.

notme:
Happiness is bull. Pursue pleasure.

Xev, I have managed to create the illusion of hapiness. I still don't completely know why I bother. But it's working so far, but in the end I know it's an illusion created by yours truly.

I just came up with these lines.

''Death follows life such as life preceeds death, so does night follow day as day preceeds night. You are an illusion of mine such as I am an illusion of yours.
And such are your dreams of day and night.''

I wonder...

Very nice. But death preceeds life too. What were you before you were born? The same thing you'll be when you die. Nothing.

No?

moonman,

Have you wrote that? That's nice... :)


notme2000,

Be carefull with your mind beliefs... You don't know what comes before life, do you?

Can't say I do. Could be anything. Have no reason to believe any possibility more than another, so I will asume nothing, out of lack of evidence.

Better not to assume...
If you assume something today, you can base moths or even years of your years in something that is probably (if not certainly) untrue.

That's just it. I don't concider after life. For that exact reason, I don't know and never will. It would be silly to waste years of my life based on an assumption, so I don't worry about before or after life. I can't know what happens. Have no reason to believe ANYTHING happens. So I'll focus on what I do during my life.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that death is a natural part of life and there is no reason it should be hurried. Just as when I exist, I am the object and you are the subject, when you exist you are the object and I am the subject. Life is related to death in a simmilar way, existing and not existing.

What is after death, a new day? what was before life, a night? A night of dreaming about day?

I'm ceasing to make sense... But maybe you can get into my momentary frame of mind;).

Or somehting like that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that death is a natural part of life and there is no reason it should be hurried
And if life doesn't come naturally to you?

And if life doesn't come naturally to you?

What could be more natural than nature(life) itself? :D
Perhaps there is a reason Nature and nature are the same word? The two are one and the same in this sense as I see it.

-What is the natural state of the projection of your 'self'?
-Alive.

I should rephrase. What if natural doesn't apeal to you? What if you're sick of the whole system?

If you mean this human system, then you are as lost as I am, cause I'm sick of it and I have no idea what to do... :(

I suppose the mystery isn't the absurdity of life... It's the allure of life... In all it's absurdity, why do we feel compelled to stay?

Actualy I've also come to think of this just now, why is life so mysterious to us? Why can't we figure it out no matter how hard we try?

I've just noticed this, we are all tormented by life, the thing that we are made of, just because we cannot explain it.
Life should be the most obvious and natural thing to us, yet we constantly strive to define it and find it's purpose. Is this a result of society?

This is something to think about.

Perhaps trying to figure out what life is IS life... Perhaps the questions we ask ARE the answers... Just a thought.

"The meaningfullness of life resides in its own meaninglessness."
An old quote from myself... :)

Perhaps we know the answeres as default, they are right infront of us, yet we do not see them as they do not coincide with that which has been taught to us during our lives. Our thought defys the meaning.

Again, past experiences defining what we perceive and know about the world... http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14350... it always come back to that... *sight

What if your purpose in this life is to find a purpose in Life?

Some contemplations: What if Hitler killed himself as a teenager and never started his whole "party" What if someone is so hideous that everyone laughs or has a disgusted look when they walk by? What if that person was a complette selfish prick their whole life until they realized that and then was never able to communicate in society? Ive perused the the above subject link and see how many people feel like this and it keeps me going.

A paradox: Suppose you have mental illness so you take meds, which have different effects depending on the person taking them. It doesnt seem to help the majority over a long period of time, and if they stop taking them they get worse. Thats a dilemma Ive pondered. DO drugs supplied by the man actually make a person feel better or does it just suppress the feelings and keep them in a state of dependence on the man to feed the economy and be its slave? I personally think the holistic approach would be the way to go, but with proper training and treatment, its quite costly.

Suppose so many people are depressed for 2 hypothetic reasons:

The amount of toxins absorbed by ingestion, radiation, propaganda that makes this circus spin. Fast food, plastics, industry, television, the list is endless. Theres one factor.

The other factor: The whole system itself and its purpose. Animal instinct is about survival, the ability to have food, shelter, and for us, clothing, too. It seems that all were conditioned to believe is that all were capable of doing and being is jsut to work to survive itself. It seems were kept at the level of animal instincts. Were provided with so many distractions and things that were not able to evolve past the instincts because if we became truly intelligent and independent peoples we would not really have to rely on a system because we could just rely on each other and their specialties first hand, without a middle man and so much bs. Imagine if there was more to Life than what were taught and if there was what would it be? I have my opinions but thats another thread. I do think that just being able to love and have a family is a very important thing.

So I think that maybe some people are so depressed-if it is a chemical imbalance, perhaps its because of all the artificialities and toxins produced, or because the person sees the world so fucked up (Or as author Jose Arguelles said in his book "The Mayan Factor", a bunch of rats running around in a cage defacating on their own feces) that they dont want to be a part of it.
I know some people have no self-esteem and feel worthless and are not able to function normally anymore. I think of how people make fun of each other for any number of reasons and how much it affects them, maybe they think if theyre not strong enough to shield those comments or even care what they say then they think theyre too weak to live anyway, but still, no matter how many stories there are with morals it seems people are still growing at their own pace and I dont think weve changed much since the dawn.

I dont have any words of encouragement but theres my 2 cents:)

We are not ready for Anarchy...

Maybe the man knows there is just trying to make a smooth transition with an inevitable spiritual revolution that defies the mans laws, but what revolution doesnt have anarchy in it? Besides, with Bush on his knees to start a war, now is the perfect time. Besides, then I can fend for my Life and safety in a more critical context and not worry about having to keep a job, heh
actually of course, middle-class suburban America wont be ready but the rich wont matter because theyll have their spots and the poor, well, its barely a change.

Anarchy can cause a lot of confusion if the society is not ready to be like the members of a body - helping each other out, depending on each other. It is called interdependence. Don't know if that would work right away... and maybe even later...

9/11 just proved that example

Speaking of 911...

Can you blame those poor people who jumped to their deaths cause they couldn't stand the flames?

So can you really blame someone for taking their own life cause they can't stand any more of it?

Nope.

Is a collapsing building a good example to prove that Anarchy does work nowdays??:confused: :eek:
I do believe someday it will work... but hey... the world is pretty messy today... we need to solve a lot of issues before we can be free from a system. And even when we are ready for the change, we will need a very smooth and well planned transition; otherwise it will be just a mess... :o:bugeye: :eek:

we need to solve a lot of issues before we can be free from a system
But that will MAKE it a system. True freedom has no requirements. All we'd have to do is stop. Stop abiding by the system. That's the problem with absolute freedom, you aint gunna like what most other people do with it.

That's the problem with absolute freedom, you aint gunna like what most other people do with it.

That's exactly my point. We need to prepare people for such freedom. For example, if we just let our kids do whatever they want, that won't be very good, isn't? For this reason, we need first to change our education system and our media, so that people can prepare to live in a free world, instead of a messy one where competition is more important than peace. First we need to change ourselves, then we need to change the world.

I think we should start a new thread on Anarchy. I'm going to do it and post the link here...

I gotta go to work, so I'll meet you in that thread tomorrow. But for now I make one last point...

If you need to change someone for the cause, you need to educate them through school, etc, is that really freedom? Or just a system that promotes peace under the illusion of freedom... True freedom is to be able to kill someone without a system to punish you (though perhaps a relative of the killed person will exact revenge on you). This is anarchy. Every man for himself. This is why society exists. Too much freedom is a bad thing. Humanity wouldn't/couldn't know what to do with it. Use this post as a segway to your anarchy thread! :D ;)

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14700

"segway"...?:confused:

Ithink I was misunderstood when I mentioned 9/11.

My intention in saying that was

LOOK HOW PEOPLE CAME TOGETHER AFTER THAT HAPPENED

unfortunately it takes tragedy as a wake up call

yeah... in that day mooter. Now what?
PS: use the other thread... ;)

This is a pretty insightful discussion on the subject of suicide from Conversations With God; Book 3.


WHY IS THERE SUCH A TABOO AGAINST THE ENDING OF ONE'S LIFE?

Indeed, why is there?


YOU MEAN ITS NOT WRONG TO KILL YOURSELF?

The question cannot be answered to your satisfaction, because the question itself contains two false concepts; it is based on two false assumptions; it contains two errors.

The first false assumption is that there is such a thing as "right" and "wrong." The second false assumption is that killing is possible. Your question itself, therefore, disintegrates the moment it is dissected.

"Right" and "wrong" are philosophical polarities in a human value system which have nothing to do with ultimate reality -- a point which I have made repeatedly throughout this dialogue. They are, furthermore, not even constant constructs within your own system, but rather, values which keep shifting from time to time.

You are doing the shifting, changing your mind about these values as it suits you (which rightly you should, as evolving beings), yet insisting at each step along the way that you haven't done this, and that it is your UNCHANGING values which form the core of your society's integrity. You have thus built your society on a paradox. You keep changing your values, all the while proclaiming that it is unchanging values which you ... well, value!

The answer to the problems presented by this paradox is not to throw cold water on the sand in an attempt to make it concrete, but to celebrate the shifting of the sand. Celebrate its beauty while it holds itself in the shape of your castle, but then also celebrate the new form and shape it takes as the tide comes in.

Celebrate the shifting sands as they form the new mountains you would climb, and atop which -- and with which -- you will build your new castles. Yet understand that these mountains and these castles are monuments to CHANGE, not to permanence.

Glorify what you are today, yet do not condemn what you were yesterday, nor preclude what you could become tomorrow.

Understand that "right" and "wrong" are figments of your imagination, and that "okay" and "not okay" are merely announcements of your latest preferences and imaginings.

For example, on the question of ending one's life, it is the current imagining of the majority of people on your planet that it is "not okay" to do that.

Similarly, many of you still insist that it is not okay to assist another who wishes to end his or her life.

In both cases you say this should be "against the law." You have come to this conclusion, presumably, because the ending of the life occurs relatively quickly. Actions which end a life over a somewhat longer period of time are not against the law, even though they achieve the same result.

Thus, if a person in your society kills himself with a gun, his family members lose insurance benefits. If he does so with cigarettes, they do not.

If a doctor assists you in your suicide, it is called manslaughter, while if a tobacco company does, it is called commerce.

With you, it seems to be merely a question of time. The legality of self-destruction -- the "rightness" or "wrongness" of it -- seems to have much to do with HOW QUICKLY the deed is done, as well as who is doing it. The faster the death, the more "wrong" it seems to be. The slower the death, the more it slips into "okayness."

Interestingly, this is the exact opposite of what a truly humane society would conclude. By any reasonable definition of what you would call "humane," the shorter the death, the better. Yet your society punishes those who would seek to do the humane thing, and rewards those who would do the insane.

It is insane to think that endless suffering is what God requires, and that a quick, humane end to the suffering is "wrong."

"Punish the humane, reward the insane."

This is a motto which only a society of beings with limited understanding could embrace.

So you poison your system by inhaling carcinogens, you poison your system by eating food treated with chemicals that over the long run kill you, and you poison your system by breathing air which you have continually polluted. You poison your system in a hundred different ways over a thousand different moments, and you do this knowing these substances are no good for you. But because it takes a longer time for them to kill you, you commit suicide with impunity.

If you poison yourself with something that works faster, you are said to have done something against moral law.

Now I tell you this: it is no more immoral to kill yourself quickly than it is to kill yourself slowly.

That's BRILLIANT :)

I'm going to have to buy those books!

notme... that's no different then what I tell you all the time... didn't I told you that reality is relative? That it is based on your own perspectives?:confused:

notme... that's no different then what I tell you all the time... didn't I told you that reality is relative? That it is based on your own perspectives?
Only our perception of reality is relative... But point taken. But it applies to you as well. The question is which (if either) of us are dwelling in reality and which is dwelling in subjective perception. I guess we can never know, and both just gotta keep doing what we're doing, for the sake of having all ground covered.

"All Sisyphus' silent joy is contained therein. His fate belongs to him. His rock is his thing. Likewise, the absurd man, when he contemplates his torment, silences all the idols. In the universe suddenly restored to it's silence, the myriad wondering little voices of the earth rise up. Unconscious, secret calls, invitations from all the faces, they are the necessary reverse and pride of victory. There is no sun without shadow, and it is essential to know the night. The absurd man says yes and his effort will henceforth be un-ceasing. If there is a personal fate, there is no higher destiny or at least there is but one which he concludes is inevitable and despicable. For the rest, he knows himself to be the master of his days. At that subtle moment when man glances backward over his life, Sisyphus returning towards his rock, in that slight pivoting, he contemplates that series of unrelated actions which becomes his fate, created by him, combined under his memory's eye and soon sealed by his death. Thus, convinced of the wholly human origin of all that is human, a blind man eager to see who knows that the night has no end, he is still on the go. The rock is still rolling. The strugle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

Albert Camus - The Myth Of Sisyphus

Originally posted by jps
I don't believe that absurdity conflicts with believing that life is beautiful.

According to Camus suicide is admitting defeat to the absurd. The first consequence of absurdity is not suicide but revolt.

From the Myth of Sysyphus:

"That revolt gives life its value. Spread out over the whole length of a life, it restores its majesty to that life. To a man devoid of blinders, there is no finer sight than that of the intelligence at grips with a reality that trancends it. The sight of human pride is unequaled"

"It is essential to die unreconciled and not of one's own free will. Suicide is a repudiation. The absurd man can only drain everything to the bitter end, and deplete himself"

My own opinion is that life is absurd and is also beautiful. These two viewpoints do not have to be contradictory.
:m: :)

Personaly, i am at a contradicting state now. I see the truth in that, yet if life was so beautiful, why would these people comit suicide? Maybe, tis all about they're destiny, trying to find they're destined plain.

You must assign meaning to your life. The universe will not. So if you have lost that ability then you are left with yourself in a mechanical universe, in which case, there is no point. When asking "Why go on?" do not look around you for the answer, look within.

You must assign meaning to your life.
Life couldn't be more meaningfull. You can assign the meaning of your life. It can mean whatever you want. How could life be more meaningfull than that...? :)

I cant believe I havent seen this post...

Ahh suicide. Life's paradox. If your life sucks, go for it. If your life is good, consider how bad life is for so many other people.

If you live in a culture of ups and downs, there will be winners and losers. Its too bad that the tables are weighted in a way that there isnt really a level playing field for everyone to live on. If you want to commit suicide, put an UNloaded *(important)* gun to your head and just think as you pull the trigger. You will not exist.

Oh the nights that I weep and laugh as I wonder about this wonderous thing. 'To be, or not to be." Its so fucking great! I must say, Russian Roulette is the ultimate game.

A couple of months ago, I truely came to the realization of: "I exist." I cannot explain this feeling, but I think I would have to go with life, just not in America....... or any Western country for that matter (thats a different topic though)


Bottom line: Instead of killing yourself, kill an animal (I know this is wrong), and stare at it for two hours straight. You will realize that it will never again THINK. It is gone, forever. So will you. Forever.

Life couldn't be more meaningfull. You can assign the meaning of your life. It can mean whatever you want. How could life be more meaningfull than that...?

No. Even if I were to fulfill my meaning, what would it matter? I shall be nothing soon. Why care if I fulfill some set goal?

Slacker:

Yes. For me, suicide would be submission, and I do not submit to anything. I will fight even if it means nothing.

Xev,

No. Even if I were to fulfill my meaning, what would it matter? I shall be nothing soon. Why care if I fulfill some set goal?
Why NOT care? ;)

You are born, you live a while and then you die. It's while you're alive that you have a choice as to what to make of it. If you think it's not worth trying since you'll be dead soon anyway, fine, but you have no bitching rights... I for one live my life to the fullest every day and do not fear death at all. If I were to die now, I'd be dying happy.

I for one live my life to the fullest every day and do not fear death at all. If I were to die now, I'd be dying happy.

Exactly, I hate shrivelling fucks who dont understand death.

I for one live my life to the fullest every day and do not fear death at all. If I were to die now, I'd be dying happy.

How nice for you. I'm sorry that your life means so little that you'd die happily.

How anyone can think that way and not be suicidal is beyond me. When I think of all the things I do not know, when I realize that I will never know them, when I think of everything I shall never do....the thought of death drives me insane.

How nice for you. I'm sorry that your life means so little that you'd die happily.
Why waste your life wishing you had more of it? Seems like a waste of the precious time you DO have...
How anyone can think that way and not be suicidal is beyond me. When I think of all the things I do not know, when I realize that I will never know them, when I think of everything I shall never do....the thought of death drives me insane.
I understand completely. The trick is to focus on doing what you can. You are limited, you have boundries, not because you lack ability, but time. Accept this, and work with it the best you can.

How anyone can think that way and not be suicidal is beyond me. When I think of all the things I do not know, when I realize that I will never know them, when I think of everything I shall never do....the thought of death drives me insane.
Why stress over death? It is inevitable why waste time worrying about it? Why sacrifice your moment for an end in the future?

Why waste your life wishing you had more of it? Seems like a waste of the precious time you DO have...
I agree why waste your last breath on fear?

Your life means so little that you'd die happily
It is only through the acceptance of the ever changing nature of reality can we ever find any stillness. Once you can find stillness in motion you can start to live.

Why suffer?

Stillness is stagnation.

Why stagnate?

Why not challenge the world, and live a real life, instead of one of wretched contentment?

Stillness in motion. Not stagnation.

Why not challenge the world, and live a real life, instead of one of wretched contentment?
Why not contently challenge the world? The 'stillness' we are talking about is not of body, but of mind. Go after all your dreams, with a passion, no one is stopping you from doing that. But remember, the journey is it's own reward. Without the journey, the accomplishment would mean nothing. Always be content with what you have. That doesn't mean you can't strive for more, just don't NEED it, because then you are dependant on it...

It is that need that caused needless suffer. Still there is a need to "still" the emotional snow storm. With out clearing it up there will still be much suffering. How can you experience your innerself if the snow clouded your mind?

Still there is a need to "still" the emotional snow storm.
One could argue suicide IS "stilling" the snow storm.

I can't wait untill I die, I'm curious about what will happen.;)
BUT, I think I have a whole lot experience before my time is up. Since it's FAR from granted that anything atall will happen after I die, I wouldn't want to miss anything cool here on earth. Like witnessing a nuclear winter.

One could argue suicide IS "stilling" the snow storm.

No it is "killing the snow strom". There is a difference between stillness and nothingness.

There is a difference between stillness and nothingness.
Then one could argue nothingness is better...

Nothingness it to not exist. One could argue that shoving pine combs up you ass would be the best thing in existance. To them it would be, each to his own.

If I were to chose nothingness I would not have to argue a point, know what pinecones are, or stand the feeling of existing anymore. It all depends if you have a reason to stay. I do. I only have one life, so I might as well experiment with it a little before I go.

LMAO what if it turned out there really is an after life after all....:D

LMAO what if it turned out there really is an after life after all
It would certainly make suicide a pointless act.

I believe that people commit suicide for many different reasons. Sometimes people who commit suicide don't want to die as much as they want some kind of attention. Those who truly want to die have passed a point that most people would find hard to understand...is it not natural for most humans to want to live? Suicide like death itself is an event that one experiences alone, but the impact I believe is greatest not for the one who has died, but for those who continue living wondering why.

If you are considering suicide...consider the living. If you decide to live...then live like your going to die tomorrow. This puts a great deal into perspective.

I guess that's the point. Suicide and truly living life are done by those who are "All-or-nothing". It just depends which end of the spectrum they end up at. But they refuse to be in the middle. The mundane, mechanic lives we see so many people working their ways through.

I recently finished reading a book titled: Man's Search for Meaning, by Victor Frankl. This unfortunate man spent three years in various concentration camps during WW2. He lost his young wife and several other family members in the camps. A theme of the early chapters is the question of why a person should want to live when his family has been murdered and his life is a torment. Frankl gives a number of reasons why a man should want to continue to live. Of these I was only impressed by Nietzsche's quote:

"He who has a why to live can bear with almost any how."

Suicide was a daily occurrence in the camps. Of course, to prevent someone from committing suicide was itself a crime punishable by death. But under those conditions, if a man decided to run into the electric fence, would my trying to stop him be an act of mercy or an act of sadism? Frankl describes wanting to wake a man from a violent nightmare:

"I shall never forget how I was roused one night be the groans of a fellow prisoner, who threw himself about in his sleep, obviously having a horrible nightmare. Since I had always been especially sorry for people who suffered from fearful dreams, I wanted to wake the poor man. Suddenly I drew back the hand which was ready to shake him, frightened at the thing I was about to do. At the moment I became intensely conscious of the fact that no dream, no matter how horrible, could be as bad as the reality of the camp which surrounded us, and to which I was about to recall him."

With Nietzsche's quote in mind, I think I could endure nearly anything as long as I thought my wife were waiting for me. Otherwise, I'm quite sure I would have given away my life in the camps.

I once heard a story about a group of women waiting their turn to be gassed. An SS officer happened to recognize a well-known dancer in the group. He demanded that she dance for him. She did dance for him, but in doing so she managed to get close enough to grab his gun and shoot him, before herself being shot.

I don't know if this story is true or if it's only the result of wishful thinking. I'd like to think that I wouldn't simply "run into the wire," but that I'd also choose to die in an act of defiance; but who could really know what they'd do in such a situation? If I thought they'd killed my wife I might as easily curl up in a ball and will that my heart should stop beating.

There was a passage in Frankly's book that might stay with me for a while. He tells of having been being forced to rise before dawn and march across a snow covered field to spend the day digging in the frozen earth. Meanwhile, a guard walked along the line occasionally administering a rifle butt to the head of a prisoner thought not to be working hard enough. The prisoners generally had only a few scraps of leather for shoes, no winter coat and certainly no gloves. He and his fellow prisoner's are walking skeletons; most suffering from dysentery and edema. Yet on one such morning a prisoner working next to Frankl nudged him and said, "Look at how beautifully the sun is rising through the trees."

But suppose hydrogen had not condensed into our sun. There would be no prisoner to remark at how beautiful it is rising through the Austrian Pines. There would be no Austrian Pines. The essence of the Absurd is that what we most treasure, matters not-a-jot in the larger scheme of things. The world only provides a world; we provide the meaning. The world comes to us in kit-form. We have to figure out how it "goes together." Unfortunately, we've no instruction manual. Philosophy is an attempt to compose just such a manual.

Absurdity releases us from having to find a global meaning (there simply is none to be found). All we have to provide is a local, inner meaning. To think a sunrise beautiful or the heart of one's beloved pure, is to provide such meaning. Meaning is our antidote to Sartre's nausea, and the highest meaning comes to us through our love. Meaningful love is approached through our humility. Thomas Nagel wrote:

"Humility falls between nihilistic detachment and blind self-importance."

The nihilist cannot love, neither can the eccentrically conceited. I am the epicenter of my world, but I am assuredly not at the epicenter of the world (I rather doubt the world has an epicenter). Humility is the acceptance that my life, and the life of those I love, are ultimately of no importance. We are ultimately nothing. Our love for each other is, however, everything. Love stands at the apex of meaning; it could never be meaningless because it only exists as meaning. In his book Truth and Existence, the philosopher, Michael Gelvin, begins his penultimate chapter:

”The dog, struck by a car, lies yapping pitifully on the highway, its back broken. Death would be merciful, but the organism continues to function. It is senseless, unendurable torment, serving no purpose.

The radiant girl, with vibrant youth and stunning beauty, plays the Beethoven violin sonata with such bold energy and yet exquisite touch that all who hear are moved to a rapture of joyous confusion, whether to yield to her feminine loveliness, her brilliant performance, or Beethoven’s genius…

The television camera, from the earth-orbiting satellite, scans the small, blue planet, on which we, six billion tiny specks, procreating and dying, pollute the globe and pass on meaninglessly into forgotten history…"

We will, all too soon pass into "forgotten history." The dog's misery will finally end and the last echo of the girl's sonata will eventually die away, but it never will be the case that I have not loved. No history of the world would be complete without the fact that I found meaning in my wife's eyes, in J.S. Bach's Partitas and in the wild cherry blossoms that bloom near my house in the Spring. These represent my "why" to live. With these I would always be glad to postpone my death till another day. Without these my dying today would be no worse a prospect than dying tomorrow.

Michael

orthogonal,
Great post! I have often said to others "When looking for meaning in your life stop falling to your knees and looking to the sky for answers, look within, long and hard. It shall not be easy, but the rewards are endless."

On another note, I would love to die for a cause. I don't know if that still constitutes suicide, but to go down in a big act of defiance, as you put it, would be a great way to have meaning even in your death.

Some people blow themselves up in crowds for the same reason. Dying for a cause is pretty tricky.

I'd die to save, not to kill.

I'd die to save, not to kill.

Exactly. Some people have a distorted perception that if they kill more people, thier message will get across to other people. Actually, it is the complete opposite. A group of martyrists that just blow thier own brains out in the middle of New York would get national attention. I, personally, will die pretty soon. It is a matter of making people realise that Americans are twisted people that sit on thier asses and dont try to help any people that are dying in other countries. Not only the people, but we are primarily using resources from other countries and keeping our "natural beauty." Time for a wake up call.

When looking for meaning in your life stop falling to your knees and looking to the sky for answers, look within, long and hard. It shall not be easy, but the rewards are endless."

The greatest flaw in Monotheism.

I would say the greatest flaw is to assert to know something, anything.:)

*Therefore asserting to know that monotheism is correct is a flaw.*

Originally posted by Xev
You are alone in a savage and indifferent cosmos, and you will always be alone. Not me. I have a wonderful wife, great kids, and beautiful grandkids. :)

Not me. I have a wonderful wife, great kids, and beautiful grandkids.

You are still alone, and will be until you die.

Doctor’s regularly indicate that Suicidal feelings are health disorders.

I think that when individual began to see the colors of life in black-n-whites, and the grays begin to flourish, it is about time to get quality help!
:m:

An interesting article apprears in this month's (February, 2003)
Scientific American Magazine, titled:

"Why? The Neuroscience of Suicide"

You can find the full article at:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=0006AF90-5BC7-1E1B-8B3B809EC588EEDF

Michael

A bit of a dumb note to end your life on.

Anyone who commits suiside because of 'the absurdity of life' is selfish and too wraped up in themselves.
If you can't see past absurdity and see love and fun you're just taking yourself and the world far to seriously.
These people aren't brave. They destroy peoples lives and disolusion more.
Killing yourself because of pain of terminal illness is different because there are good reasons. There is no point in having a beating heart if you can't do anything with it.

These people arent wrapped up in themselves and selfish. If every day was Hell for you, then im sure you would want to die. These people do something like this when they cant see any love no matter how hard they look, when they look they only find pain. These people cant stand being a part of "a world gone mad". These people ARE brave. Their own lives have been destroyed by their tormenters. While i dont think that they should go to such an extreme, I can sympathize with them.

Anyone who commits suiside because of 'the absurdity of life' is selfish and too wraped up in themselves.
True, but they would admit that, and tell you it doesn't matter... Nothing does...
These people arent wrapped up in themselves and selfish. If every day was Hell for you, then im sure you would want to die. These people do something like this when they cant see any love no matter how hard they look, when they look they only find pain. These people cant stand being a part of "a world gone mad". These people ARE brave. Their own lives have been destroyed by their tormenters. While i dont think that they should go to such an extreme, I can sympathize with them.
We are focusing more on the people who commit suicide because of the "absurdity of life" not because of pain or torment. You make a valid point, but in the wrong debate, lol. ;)

Stooperman screws up again! (doh!)

Anyone who commits suiside because of 'the absurdity of life' is selfish and too wraped up in themselves. If you can't see past absurdity and see love and fun you're just taking yourself and the world far to seriously.
These people aren't brave. They destroy peoples lives and disolusion more. Killing yourself because of pain of terminal illness is different because there are good reasons. There is no point in having a beating heart if you can't do anything with it.


They arent brave? You kill yourself, or better yet, kill me.

Too wrapped up in themselves? Have you ever considered killing yourself? I seriously doubt it.

Taking the world too seriously? How do you see the world? A joke? Do you think that little kids dying from starvation is a joke? I think your mind is clouded.

Ok, your last statement.... If they cant so anything with their lives, they should end it? I am lost to your consistency.

Ahh the familiar topic of suicide, as the twilight eases itself into the sky and the few bright yet lonely stars are illumiated through the thin haze of the deep gray clouds against the dark blue night.

Anyway, suicide is something that does take a bit of courage, but I am also a firm believer that it takes more courage to live than to die. Either way, my man Shakespeare has a poin in Hamlet
"who would these fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after death,--The undiscover'd country, from whose bourn No traveller returns,—puzzles the will, And makes us rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all; And thus the native hue of resolution Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought; And enterprises of great pith and moment, With this regard, their currents turn awry, And lose the name of action."
If you are going to do it, don't let your senses keep you in a place where you don't want to be. It is all about how you see thing; are you afraid to die and go into hell, heaven, nothingness, reincarnation, or are you so sick of being here that you don't care what is out there and would rather chance the unknown.
I say chance the unknown without killing yourself; stop sewing the quilt and look at the pattern you are weaving, you may find that there is something you would rather do and could enjoy, you just haven't seen it yet. But I wouldn't recommend drifting, trust me limbo sucks, so do something mundane as long as it takes you in a direction and hope that it will put you somewhere you want to be; meanwhile, in your free time, look for it and enjoy what you have left to enjoy.

something ive realised is that we havnt advanced to a mentalality that is able to deal with the complexity of a our current technologies. I think its the results of this/.

something ive realised is that we havnt advanced to a mentalality that is able to deal with the complexity of a our current technologies
Not to mention the rate of change... By the time someone is used to how things are now, it's all changed again.

Originally posted by notme2000
Not to mention the rate of change... By the time someone is used to how things are now, it's all changed again.

exactley, within all elements.
socially, physicallly, cultutrally, technologogically.... we have this thrust to keep advancing, but we dont know why, and we do it anyway.

Originally posted by Agent@5
, technologogically

:p

Originally posted by Xev
You are still alone, and will be until you die. As I said before: "Not me. I have a wonderful wife, great kids, and beautiful grandkids. " You may choose to deprecate it, but it's still great. :)

Bah, you're boring.

Tell me, will those people always be with you? No? And will they understand and accept you, all of the time? No?

Then you are alone.

Originally posted by Xev
Bah, you're boring. OK

What does it matter they accept you. As long as you can accept them you well be content. Unless you are driven by the need for external gratification. In that case you wil never find any peace.

Sorry to burst your bubble (or whatever it is that you keep your thoughts in), but there is no possible way to die alone. You fail to see the connections within the universe; everyone and everything is connected somehow, so if one person dies, no matter how hard you try to deny it, everything knows it, whether they know they know it or not.

How would you like to die? Odd quiestion I know, but I am serious. I want to cause a ripple (like that VW beetle commercial) and cause everyone in the world to smile or laugh and the guy who shoots me will see my smile and feel happy that he has ended my life as I wanted it to end.

In my personal Opinion Suicide is takeing the easy way out of lifes problems. Im not saying suicide is easy but the desire to end the crap you go through day by day forever is easier that sticking with it. Now those who commit suicide because they have come to a realization that life is pointless is a different matter in my opinion. For one to think life has no point or that its meaningless would in my sense of logic mean that they have had a few probs in their life beyond just realiseing life is meaningless or pointless. Something had to have happened to make them realise this. If it is a troublesome life its my beliefe that they convince themselves that they are commiting suicide for a reason other than just a shitty life so they feel better about actually going through with it.
Humans have a tendency to find ways to make wrong things seem right by convinceing themselves then others that they are doing something wrong for a good reason. Self-denial and self-dilusion are good examples. This usually happens when there is a conflict in morals and desires. One may have the desire to die or commit suicide but his morals are against it. So then they convince themselvs that they are commiting suicide for a different reason that doesnt conflict with thier morals. But could be full of crap........:)

:D

Ah, a good point. But we can't completely rule out the possibility that life IS pointless and meaningless, and these people have not diluted themselves to believe it, but had a moment of clarity...

Can one tell the difference between a moment of Clarity, a moment of Insanity or a moment of delusion?

Can one tell the difference between a moment of Clarity, a moment of Insanity or a moment of delusion?
If you go back to my starting post of this thread, that is what this whole debate started with, lol. ;)

Originally posted by notme2000
Ah, a good point. But we can't completely rule out the possibility that life IS pointless and meaningless, and these people have not diluted themselves to believe it, but had a moment of clarity...

Here's and idea...
Let's blow up the world! Then we would all know if life was meaningless...oh wait...it wouldn't matter then.:D :D

Suicide is a bad idea methinks because if you die, then the uncertainty is higher. At least by living out your life (dull or shitty as it is or will be or could be) you know what is coming. If you are so curious thoguh, and that is your method of exploration, more power to you--it is a step that so many are afraid to take, but also one that so many have. Ultimately, you are screwed either way--if you choose to see it that way, or you win either way.

Ahh the webs we weave...:rolleyes:

There's another twist to suicide that one could consider. What if a person feels like they've accomplished everything in life that they want to? A good education, a good job, a great family, children. All of this is accomplished at a relatively early age. What's left. If that person is intellectual or inquisitive, they could possibly start thinking "OK..what's next." In my eyes, suicide could be their way to determine what's next. The answer to all of life's questions...life after death, heaven, nothingness, reincarnation...etc. For their sake the risk of disappearing into 'nothingness' could be worth taking to find out the truth...especially if one of the alternatives exists.
So for some suicide is the only way out...but for others could suicide be the ultimate experiment to carry out from which they won't return?

reincarnation.... Lmao ever heard of the tea of forgetfullness. Pretty much when you die you forget the life you had before.

I don't know a lot about reincarnation, but I've heard of people experiencing 'shadows' or flashes of a past life? Is this not a recognized phenomena in the study of reincarnation? (What would this be reincarnationology?):D

Reincarnation... im trying to prove that at www.randi.org 's forum:D

Ratbastard makes a good point. Let's say I've been depressed my whole life, but refused to give up through suicide. I finally get out of depression and make the absolute most out of my life. Everything is PERFECT... No where to go but down, so why not end my life on a good note. Quit while I'm ahead...

But when you fall don't you again have the chance to pick yourself back up?

i'm new to the board so i am reading back through the message base.

as far as i can see this thread is dominated by people for whom the issue of suicide is rather intellectual, rather than personal. with the exception of a few messages about being suicidal there is nothing from anyone particularly effected by the aftermath of suicide. most of the messages are, to me, flippant in their disregard for the agony that anyone who committed suicide had gone through. to say nothing of those they left behind. to quote frommy blog dated:

Thursday, December 05, 2002

Sometime between her last email message to Calvin at about 8pm on sep 5 2000 and early morning sep 7th, my mom took a 38 put it into her mouth and blew off the top of her head. Just in the way my career military uncle Gordon told her would be the best way to be sure you killed yourself and not suffer. For my mom was as afraid of suffering as she was being alone, without my dad, whose 6th month death anniversary was the 5th. None of us kids remembered that fact until after her death, but my mom had written it on her calendar, bud�s been gone 6 months now the entry read.


When my dad died I asked my brother to clean out all of the ammunition from the house before mom had a chance to use it. For both her and Gordon always talked about committing suicide rather than outlive their usefulness, but my uncle died quietly in a nursing home soon after major surgery. Only my mom carried out those threats we had heard over the years. Strange how tightly my dad held on to life, while my mom so easily ended her�s without being sick or some other major problem, just the loneliness that most woman will feel as their husbands leave years or decades before them.


Despite the pain mom�s unwarranted suicide causes those who love her, I still insist on my right to �go out on the iceberg� when the time arrives. Abuse of something is no argument against its use. Like my carrying of mom�s 38, a constant reminder that it is not the gun�s fault the ending of her life, it is mom�s choice. The gun did only what was asked of it, it is not guilty, either by association or by usage of any sin in her demise. It can still serve me well if called upon to defend my life, once it spoke to kill, it can yet speak again to save.


In a way I am proud of her. She had the guts to really do it. I am certainly proud of the way she rose to the occasion with dad�s cancer those last few years. She drove to LA, took up all the driving at home as well. She fed him through the stomach tubes and really showed herself to be a competent caring person after years of lying in bed.


so if friends of your are talking about suicide, GET THEM HELP, LISTEN TO THEM.
if you contemplate killing yourself, drop what you're doing and talk to a trusted friend.

you are NOT ALONE.
if you do kill yourself, the sun will rise tomorrow, and your loved ones will have to deal with the aftermath, but without you.

thanks for listening.
now back to the discussion

richard williams

Why is suicide seen as eminently undersirable in the aftermath of Judeo-Christian-Islamic slave morality?

I mean, we've gone from commending Socrates for drinking the hemlock to whinging every time some loser teen offs themselves. What the fuck?

if you contemplate killing yourself, drop what you're doing and talk to a trusted friend.

Unless you're about to shoot yourself. Then you should slowly put the gun down. Dropping it might remove a toesie. :p

most of the messages are, to me, flippant in their disregard for the agony that anyone who committed suicide had gone through.

That's because you're a hyper-emotional pussy.

Originally posted by Xev
That's because you're a hyper-emotional pussy.
Word:cool:
That type of person does bother me, I question whether they actually care or if they just think they "should" say something.

ok, despite some who can joke about this Ill just say that there might be some people who are not going to end up being healthy and living fortunate lives that have meaning. Why should those whose destiny has been dropped just wander as ghosts and zombies? Is it like earthworms or insects that serve a purpose we take for granted? Doubt it, these are humans. Im just saying, there are some lost people, even people who were once sane intelligent people who can end up losing their minds and any hope of living a prosperous life. Perhaps this is why some states are turning on to assisted suicide? End the pain! There someone I know who I can honestly say that people who know him would think all was better off if he wasnt around. See the difference in momentary undisputable pain and the life long undisoutable pain where the suicide should be debated.

That type of person does bother me, I question whether they actually care or if they just think they "should" say something.

Eggactly. I mean, everybody's suicidal at one or more points in their life. However, our genes just keep whispering "survive" in our ears, so we stick it out.

Eggactly. I mean, everybody's suicidal at one or more points in their life. However, our genes just keep whispering "survive" in our ears, so we stick it out.

Not all people who commited suicide want to die. They just want the pain to end and thsi is the best way they know to go about it. I think the gene whispering in your ear is rather irrelevants. All of people just want there suffering to end, and they see no end in sight. That is the issuse not that they want life to end they just want it to be better. They cannot tolerate the endless pain, that is always dogging them.

Some people who want to live kill themselves.

The irony of all of this is that suffering is in the mind. Suffering is your perception.

Eggactly. I mean, everybody's suicidal at one or more points in their life. However, our genes just keep whispering "survive" in our ears, so we stick it out.
No. In some cases people may wish to commit suicide before they realize all of the factors in this existance. What to you need to be content and satisfied. If you base it upon external things, they are fleeting and will change easily. If you base you contentment on yourself internally how can you ever have discontentment? If you are ever disatisfied with your internal, then change it because you have the power to do so. How are you powerless then?

People take life to seriously, we already know the ending.

every time some loser teen offs themselves
Loser is completly a matter of perspective. We are all loser from some ones perspective.

That's because you're a hyper-emotional pussy. I call that being human.

Demons defeat the complaicent, and raise the humble.

Not all people who commited suicide want to die. They just want the pain to end and thsi is the best way they know to go about it. I think the gene whispering in your ear is rather irrelevants. All of people just want there suffering to end, and they see no end in sight. That is the issuse not that they want life to end they just want it to be better. They cannot tolerate the endless pain, that is always dogging them. Yeah and it's sad that some people do it to themselves- i.e. cause the pain themselves.

I call that being human. lol! :D

...commending Socrates for drinking the hemlock Socrates was sentenced to death! It wasn't really suicide!

Perhaps this is why some states are turning on to assisted suicide? I can't believe this! Are they really?? I bet this is in America who trusts 'in God'!. If they trust God so much then maybe they should have more respect for life especially human life.

Socrates was sentenced to death! It wasn't really suicide!
Yeah, but he had the choice to go to Sparta. He picked hemlock instead of leaving Athens.

Not all people who commited suicide want to die. They just want the pain to end and thsi is the best way they know to go about it. I think the gene whispering in your ear is rather irrelevants
Those instincts whispering in your ear are never irrelevant... If it weren't for those instincts I'd have offed myself long long ago. Anyone who kills themselves has to first get past the INCREDIBLY strong instinct to survive at all costs...

Those instincts whispering in your ear are never irrelevant... If it weren't for those instincts I'd have offed myself long long ago. Anyone who kills themselves has to first get past the INCREDIBLY strong instinct to survive at all costs...

Offing yourself takes balls. It takes will to kill yourself. Is it those instincts or...mabye just that fact, that you do not want to die. Just live a "better" life. There may be an INCREDIBLY strong instinct to survive at all costs, but like I said it is made irrelevant by the will of a man/woman. The will of a man is stronger then love/hate/pain because he can conquer it. Will is power. With will a man can do pretty much anything he wants. Where there is a will there is a way.

Though I do not believe a man should live by his will alone.

I do not mean to be insulting, but if you truely had the will to kill yourself you would have. You are still alive because your will wasn't in it. Myself personally, I wanted to kill myself when my heart was running back and fourth like a (Well) Teenager. I wanted to kill myself because I felt so much pain and wanted it to end. I wanted existance to be over, to be born and weaned atheist death was merly an end. What I realize though was that it was my heart bashing my heart against the wall. If the heart is left un-tamed then it will enter a vicious cycle. The heart should not rule your consciousness. Though this brings up another debate, you should not dominate your heart and control it. For then you will become an unfeeling brute. It should be tamed and yet free.

Live by your heart, temper its fires with your wisdom and drive with your will.

Emotion with out will is depression.

I do not mean to be insulting, but if you truely had the will to kill yourself you would have.
I agree completely.
Live by your heart, temper its fires with your wisdom and drive with your will.
I look at the heart like a sniveling baby, and my brain is the parent who has to look after it. I see people all around me saying "live with your heart" and all that, and alot of them think of me as a little too cold or a little too calculating... But these are the same people who's lives fall apart every week. Meanwhile I think with my head, sometimes I let my heart feel, when it's appropriate... But when it's irrational I just ignore it... Becase emotion is fleeting in the end. And I live a very decent life. I am not against the heart or it's emotions, but it's just like a child... The brain is what knows what's good for it. The heart can't always have it's way. Sometimes the brain has to put it's foot down. This is what got me out of depression, and kept me out. Following your heart all the time is a sure-fire way to end up miserable in the end. But then again so if following your brain all the time. You have to find a balance that works for you.

Emotion with out will is depression.
Nicely put.

Originally posted by notme2000
Becase emotion is fleeting in the end.

I just feel like arguing this statement...

Have you ever been in love? A long, lasting, forever type love where, even in death you'll always love that person? No? Thought so.

Also, knowledge is fleeting as it changes through science, experience, etc...

Thanks for your time. :)

Have you ever been in love? A long, lasting, forever type love where, even in death you'll always love that person? No? Thought so
Yes I have, don't be so presumptuous... But there are times, many times, when following your heart saerves no good... The heart is blind, so to follow it is to walk blindly... Don't get me wrong, it's not like I NEVER follow my heart, but not when it's going to be in vain in the end anyway... I love my life, passionately, with my heart.... But I got here using my brain. If the parent the lets child live his life how ever he wants the child ends up miserable or dead. But if the parent only gives the child freedom when it's safe then the child grows up healthy. So I let my heart control me in safe enviroments. My heart always feels, always. It's wether or not I let it govern me that is the question.

1. Nobody is happy in this world

Some complain of unemployment and poverty, others of disease, death in the family or some other distress. Every-where a tide of pain, misery, grief and suffering seems to engulf mankind.

Nanak! all the world is steeped in pain,
Happy are those, whom doth Nam sustain.
Muslim philosophers have named this world, `The Home of Distress.'

The world is divided into, two parts, water and land. In water, big fish live upon the small ones, and are themselves eaten up by still bigger ones. On the land, big birds eat the small ones and the latter make worms and flies their food. Lions and tigers make smaller animals their prey, and thus it goes on. Man kills all. Nothing is safe from him.

And yet life is very dear to everyone. Imagine the agony of dumb creatures that are daily butchered to provide us food, and the distress of those that are wounded or killed when we are out hunting. The human form, that was granted to us for the sublime purpose of God-realization, is spent in tyranny towards His beings. When man sinks so low, he is worse than a beast. The beast kills only to satisfy its hunger, but man does it for pleasure, notwithstanding the fact that the slightest injury to his own person sends him reeling with pain and he demands immediate relief. What a strange world to live in, which has no security nor peace! No one knows when death will overtake or what catastrophe will befall one.

2. This world is not our True Home

We are in an alien land where nothing is either permanent or our own. All around us is matter and mind made up of the five elements: earth, water, fire, air and akash (the matter that surrounds the earth beyond the air and, for want of a better word, is called ether). Soul, on the other hand, is a denizen of Sach Khand, an essence of the Ocean of Light and Bliss, pure, radiant and transcendent. It is a drop of the ocean of eternal happiness but, in its association with mind, for many ages, has gathered so much dross that it has completely forgotten its origin and has come to believe that this world is its real abode. Soul is tied down with mind, which in its turn is led by the five senses. It thus suffers the consequences of this unfortunate association and has to go through the long chain of life and death. It is in the human form alone that it may come in contact with a perfect Adept, get the secret of Nam from Him and by devotedly practising it, attain liberation.

Like grass have I grown many times;
Seven hundred and seventy forms have I been.
--Rumi

Guru Nanak says:

Many times have you been born as worms and flies;
Many times have you been born as deer, sheep and swine;
Many times have you been born as birds, horses and trees;
After numerous ages have you received this human body;
Therefore, meet the Lord now.
This is the only time.

3. It is only in the human form that the Soul can realize God and retrace its footsteps Homeward

None other of the eight million and four hundred thousand species has this capacity. Man alone has this privilege. Even gods and angels pine for it. The human body is the exit through which one can get out of the vast prison and thereby put an end to all pain and misery.

But alas! we do not give up the pleasures of the senses. Our mind has become so feeble and erring that it finds itself unable to withstand the ravishing sense pleasures and falls an easy prey to temptation. It is, however, never satiated. The more it gets, the more it desires. It perfectly realizes that the reaction of all `bhogas' (sense enjoyments) is pain, sorrow and dejection, yet it persists in its silly pursuits. Beware! DO action in this world goes without bearing fruit. Every action has its reaction. The worst reaction is that of lust.

Guru Nanak says:

For one moment of lust enjoyment,
Ten million days of agony await thee.
This adds up to thirty-three thousand years of agony for one moment of sensual pleasure. Only a fool would enter into such a bad bargain. What fools are we! If the result of pleasure is pain, how can it be pleasure? A wise man always keeps the ultimate result in mind.

Blessed is the person
Who always keeps his eye on the goal.
--Maulana Rum

But what is the remedy? How to dissuade the rabid mind from following this insane course, which takes it to destruction? In order to find a suitable remedy we must consider the nature of the mind. We know that it is fond of pleasure but it never sticks to one thing. It constantly keeps flitting from one to another. Nothing can keep it engaged for long. As soon as it sees something better, sweeter or prettier than what it has, it runs after that and throws away what it has in hand. The mind is never constant. The same is true of its love and attachment. It will readily give up all if we provide it with something sweeter and more absorbing than the worldly pleasures. That `something' is within us, in our own body. It is resounding above and behind our eyes in the form of sweet Music, which the Saints call Shabd, Bani, Nam, Word, Anhad Shabd, Sound Current or Audible Life Stream. When the mind hears this Celestial Music, all worldly pleasures become tasteless.

All the Saints and Sages say that God is within us and that all our sorrows and worries will come to an end, only when we turn our attention inward.

Christ says:

The Kingdom of God is within you.
Guru Nanak, Kabir, Tulsi Das, Soami Ji, Prophet Mohammed, all say the same thing. But we search for Him without, in temples, mosques, and churches; in rites and rituals; in scriptures and holy books; in sacrifices, penances and charities. All these, undoubtedly, have some merit in them but they keep us confined to lower worlds and cannot take us beyond the sphere of action and reaction. For reaping the reward of good deeds, we have to be born again in this phenomenal world. We can get true liberation only by totally withdrawing our attention from the outside and concentrating it at the eye centre as instructed by the Master.

4. God-realization is not possible without a perfect Master

He alone can show us how to vacate the nine portals of the body and enter the tenth which leads to our Eternal Home. The Vedas, Shruties, Smrities, other holy scriptures and the Saints and Sages of all religions stress the need for a Mystic Adept for transport into subtle realms. Actually, man needs a teacher at every step from the time of his birth. He has learnt nothing without one. His first guru is his mother who teaches him how to sit, stand, walk, eat, drink and dress. Later his father, brothers and sisters take on the onerous role and he begins to prattle. When he grows a little older, his friends and playmates become his guru. Next he goes to schools and colleges where there are any number of them to teach him. Yet when it comes to learning the science of the soul-the most intricate of sciences, rarely do we search for a guru, and without one it is impossible to proceed even an inch on this