Never in history has there been such a revolutionary change in lifestyle as that experienced by the born-again Christian. Skeptics have fumbled over this phenomenal change and have been unable to arrive at any valid conclusion as to the source of this radical transformation.

The point of this thread is to try to ascertain the cause of this change. How do violent robbers and murderers become meek lambs begging for God's mercy? How do vile people turn from their old ways and proclaim the Gospel even inspite of humiliation and threats? How do people who simply did not care a hoot about God overnight become passive evangelizers who would die in a foreign land for His name? What person would abandon a life of riches and comfort to a meagre spartan life to get closer to God?


The first answer of course, is God Himself. But we shall leave this answer to the Religion thread to sort out.. :D

Somehow, their minds were "transformed" and "renewed" to an indescribable joy and serenity. As a Christian, I have experienced this peace that surpasses all understanding and can attest to it fully. I leave it to the skeptics and critics to attempt to unravel this mystery of the ages.

Never in history has there been such a revolutionary change in lifestyle as that experienced by the born-again Christian.

What about getting brutally enslaved and shipped accross the Atlantic like cheap cattle? That's a pretty drastic change in lifestyle.

@ Skipping Stones

But the case here is 'voluntary'. The slaves, I am sure, did not want to have their lives changed. Additionally the slaves had no choice to continue living as they did.

Delusion is a powerful thing.

And that it happens to Christians throughout the ages in the SAME manner? The same transformation to Roman centurions happens to criminals today and that is your best response?

The mind is a very powerful thing. Convince yourself that you are "born again" and know what it entails, and there you go. Mind over matter.

Well Christianity DOES use scare tactics to get people to believe in it (I.E. if you don't follow "god's word" you are sent to hell for torture for all eternity), so someone with a weak enough mind could be scared stiff from something like that.

And you are forgetting all the people every day that AREN'T born again :p
It's easy to point out something to your favor, but the fact of the matter is that there are still a ton of people every day who remain atheist/non-christian-like religions (you know what I mean by that...I think)

The mind is a very powerful thing. Convince yourself that you are "born again" and know what it entails, and there you go. Mind over matter.

I can believe that water is the path to enlightenment and "know what it entails" (as if anyone could fully know), and I still would be HARD PRESSED to change overnight.

That simply does not do justice to the phenomenal overnight change that occurs to which many are witness.

Well Christianity DOES use scare tactics to get people to believe in it (I.E. if you don't follow "god's word" you are sent to hell for torture for all eternity), so someone with a weak enough mind could be scared stiff from something like that.

And you are forgetting all the people every day that AREN'T born again :p
It's easy to point out something to your favor, but the fact of the matter is that there are still a ton of people every day who remain atheist/non-christian-like religions (you know what I mean by that...I think)


You are ignoring that there are people who are told that God loves them and He died for their sins (told nothing about hell or damnation) and still undergo a DRASTIC change. I invite you to listen to a sermon anytime you can, contrary to the prejudice nonbelievers have, there are VERY FEW pulpits which preach the message of damnation. It is simply rare that you would ever hear such a thing and therefore I must disagree with your statement.

Did I mention non-believers are unable to hold claim to such a phenomenon? :p

All Christians do is believe that Christ died for their sins (NOTE: Christians are not saved by believing that their lives will be radically changed the next day).

After this 'simple' act of faith, the rich and the poor, the strong and the weak suddenly live a revolutionary lifestyle. Attributing this to a weak mind is simply a weak argument. I suppose Isaac Newton had a weak mind too.. :rolleyes:

Fear of unknown, fear of death, desire to cling to existence (Earthly or "Heavenly") at all costs, and fear of being "different" were exploited by all religions thoroughly throughout ages. OK, I must admit that desire to find a "sense of life, sense of existence, etc." push some folks to religions too. However, the first group of reasons to believe is by far more prevalent.

South, please, tell me why most of the good Christian folks cling to this sinful life as flies to s***t? They'll do pretty much anything to stay alive as long as possible (prayers, vigils, multimillion bills to live 2 days longer, etc.). I thought that being in Jesus/God's presence on that side is the largest reward Christian can get. It's amusing to observe Christian's mighty efforts to postpone such a wonderful meeting. May I say that a worm of doubt lives in every Christian soul?

Secondly, what is the point of your prayers, choices to be born or not to be born again, if God is omni knowledgeable, omnipresent, and omniscient? Everything is decided and sealed with this kind of God long time before your birth. Your choices are predetermined (predetermination, heard of that?). Attempts of Christians to unite "free will" with omniscient God and predetermination using logic, etc. look lame if not utterly stupid.

Thirdly, 90% of Christians (not less) never advance in their faith to the point of asking themselves about predetermination and free will and many other things. They just believe in something.

Why do they believe without questioning? Answer is simple - "it makes them feel good". Religion bring sense of structure in Life, it bring sense of belonging (even though Churches, in my opinion, are among the loneliest, the fakest places on Earth). Life in the artificially certain world is much more attractive for the average Joe. It brings peace, resemblance of purpose, etc. In other words, Joe feels gooooooood. What else does he need? Questioning the most important book (He, most likely, never read from A to Z anyway) does not feel good, it brings trouble in the simple, certain world. Joe is looking for certainty and peace at all cost. Even if, the price of an artificial certainty is the common sense.

And the last point, all people are hypocrites BUT Christian folks are super hypocrites. You are using a few (per billion) souls, who redirected their lives by falling in religious delirium, as an example of God's power.

You have forgotten about 99% of Christians whose human nature (greed, selfishness, lust, envy,....) is barely affected by their faith at all (In the best case. It can get worse too). What about them? Where is God's power? I guess those 99% were not chosen after all.

BTW, it's statistically proven fact that divorce rate among "born again" is higher that among "nonreligious" (Not necessarily atheists). God turns lives around? It seems he does it with about the same frequency as “Non religious” God does.

I don't understand what your trying to say SouthStar, that born again christians are somehow "imbued with the power of god" or some bullshit. The only thing that changes is their mindset. Why do they experience such a "powerful phenomenon", as you put it? First of all, it's not a "phenomenon", it's just know by a different name: the placebo effect.



The people are TOLD they will be born into a new existance, so they are. Like I summarized in my above post, delusion is a powerful thing. You are convinced of something, it becomes true in your mind. See all forms of brainwashing/cult following/nationalism for examples of this.

The people are told to BELIEVE that Christ died for their sins NOT that they will be born into a new existence. Your knowledge of Christian doctrine is flawed. The purpose of salvation itself is not to "be born into a new existence". Your so-called explanation fails to show why this ONE act of belief can change a person's life in ways NO other acts of faith can even compare. Even madly in love men have been known to turn their eyes occasionally. Delusion? Not possible.

As for brainwashing/cult following and the like, surely you do not mean to say that by one act of faith, the believer suddenly experiences a radical change in lifestyle? That they no longer succumb to the things of old and are not broken in heart when they err? All this by one act of faith? Again, I say none other can claim this.


And of course everyone will convert to Maxwellianity, not only because they don't want to run the gauntlet, but because above all MAXWELL LOVES THEM, AND THEY LOVE MAXWELL.

Obviously if they said that to you they would not suddenly change their mindsets and lifestyles. Rest of post removed due to irrelevance

Well they move one obsesion on to another obsession

How do violent robbers and murderers become meek lambs begging for God's mercy?
It's amazing how motivated a criminal will actually be to find God when the parole hearing comes up. It's even more miraculous how many people on death row find God when they apply for clemency. :rolleyes:

How do vile people turn from their old ways and proclaim the Gospel even inspite of humiliation and threats?
Yes. These vile individuals leave their bad ways behind to start up a ministry to proclaim the Gospel and preach God, all the while reminding the blinded fools who sign up to donate to the new Church to help them find God faster. The old vile individuals, newly reformed, can then drive away in a nice Jag, exclaiming 'praise the Lord' all the way to the bank, not to mention their new condos in the Alps.

How do people who simply did not care a hoot about God overnight become passive evangelizers who would die in a foreign land for His name?
It's wonderful how these newly God fearing folks can just up and leave to dangerous destinations to start up ministries to fleece the poor, delusioned natives in other lands... all donations to build the church of course... :rolleyes:

What person would abandon a life of riches and comfort to a meagre spartan life to get closer to God?
Spartan lives?

Heh!

I see you have failed to look more closely at the riches of these born again Christian ministers.

listen and learn--with repect:

"In the phallic mushroom, the "man-child" born of the "virgin" womb, we have the reality behind the Christ figure in the New Testament story. In a sense he is representative also of the initiates of the cult, "Christians", or "smeared with semen", as the name means. By imitating the mushroom, as well as by eating it and sucking its juice, or "blood", the Christian was taking unto himself the panolopy oh his god......Fully to understand the part plAYED BY WOMEN IN THE MUSHROOM CULT, IT IS NECESSARY TO APPRECIATE THIER role in the creative process itself. The fungus represented a microcosm of the female part of the birth cycle. The "man-child" was born from a womb or volva and its gestation and parturition was as much a part of the female worshipper as the birth of a human baby required the active participation of the mother and midwife. .(The Sacred Mushoom and the Cross, J M. Allegro)

the Christian myth is a follow on --a plgarizer--of the pagan mythic motif of the 'son' who is also a god-man, or man-child and is Son/Lover of the Goddess

so, for example, in the Dionysian earth religious orgiastic rituals, you had the celebrants drink their inspirational concoction, and BECOME the god Dionysos...literally 'possessed' translated from 'enthusiasm' (Greek)

so, are you getting it. the original meaning of "born again" isn;t merely believing in some words from a bible, or preacher of missionary, or even being nearly drowned in a baptism ritual. it is the actual direct experience of heightened awarenss and ecstasy one has after ingesting an hallucinogenic beverage..........the actual experience of this and integration is being 'born again'.....all your senses are refreshed from the ecstatic exprience. feeling more in tune with community and Nature

it doesn't mean 'i am a 'christian' and you are 'not'... type indoctrinatio, THat is what the poltical chruch of Paul and
augustine had writ down!! visciously suppressing the originary myth AND peoples

@ Bells

You have utterly failed to make any sense. Your generalization of wolves in sheep's clothing as representatives of all sheep lacks in substance. I suppose it is only satisfactory for you to bypass those who reflect the changes of their life and make a baseless generalization concerning the unscrupulous ones who are obviously not changed. You have utterly ignored the ones who bear fruits that they simply were incapable of bearing beforehand, doing things that they would otherwise have loathed.

The whole point of my post was to show you could say "/insert name\ died for your sins/is the son of god/etc" and it would have the same exact effect. Go ahead try it, go to China or some place where they've never heard of Jesus and change his name to Bob or Samuel, the effect won't change but they're now praying to someone other than Jesus so your whole born again christian "phenomenon" goes out the window.



Wow, just when I thought you couldn't get more ignorant. Thank you for your expert opinion, as I'm sure you hold a doctorate in neurology because the vast knowledge you display about the human mind.

Wow, and you say I'm ignorant?

Why don't you actually go to some forsaken place and change His name to Maxwell and see if the same effect can be observed. Your theory is lacking in substance.

@ duendy

I don't want this to turn into a religious perspective sort of thing unfortunately because I will get flamed.

I don't know of any Christian who drunk any hallucinogens as a requirement to getting saved first of all, I also don't know of any ecstasy that lasts for the rest of one's life as a result of one act of faith.

I wonder if any of the posters on this thread have ever read the book "THE PAGAN CHRIST" by Tom Harpur, a retired anglican bishop. He takes the veiuw that 95% of the bible is myth and legends. That Jesus was not a supernatural beeing, son of god
but he nevertheless beleives in God and an afterlife. A very interesting book for both cristians and agnostics (like me)

Maslow in his writings about Peak Experiences noted that the same kind of radical personality changes brought on by Christian thoughts/experiences (such as being ''reborn'') are mirrored exactly by the mystical experiences and personality changes experiences brought on by many other religions, meditation, climbing a mountain, psychedelic drugs and etc,.

@ Bells

You have utterly failed to make any sense. Your generalization of wolves in sheep's clothing as representatives of all sheep lacks in substance.
I was merely replying to your post, which lacked substance to begin with. My statement was not a generalisation South, I wish it was, but it was not.

I suppose it is only satisfactory for you to bypass those who reflect the changes of their life and make a baseless generalization concerning the unscrupulous ones who are obviously not changed.
I'm sure that there are some people who start up these ministries with all good intention, but money still plays a great part in it, as it does in all religions. My statements are not really directed at the people who are born again Christians and join these ministries. They were instead mostly directed at the large number of individuals who start up these ministries in the first place. The good intentions may be there, but one of the driving motivations is money to start up and build the ministry.

As for the criminals and who you called the unscrupulous people who find God, especially when in jail, usually do so for selfish needs. I can assure you that many lawyers advise their clients to find God when facing trial and parole hearings in an attempt to persuade the legal fraternity to be lenient.

You have utterly ignored the ones who bear fruits that they simply were incapable of bearing beforehand, doing things that they would otherwise have loathed.
No South, I was merely pointing out reality. I have had many personal experiences with born again Christians. I have seen born again ministers praising God and the miracles of God, of turning people against the evils of the world, of demonstrating how some people can find God. I have seen many ministers actually send people out on the streets to find drunks and people so stoned that they cannot stand up, bring them back to the church with promises of food and shelter and then pray on them until they fall down (not mentioning that their falling down is due to the fact that they are too drunk or stoned to stand up in the first place), proclaim this to be a miracle of finding God. Straight after this, they pass around a nice deep basket for donations from the blind fools who believed it all, and these people donate a lot of money, not realising that the minister is driving a Jag home while they are driving home in their shitty cars. I have witnessed this personally several times and have also heard other accounts from people I know are born again Christians, who have told me that it is common practice to bring street people to the church during such sessions to help them find God. They found no problems with such behaviour, because to them, they were spreading the word of God. They did not see the manipulative aspects of the Church in behaving as they have. I personally find such actions by any church, be they born again or other to be ethically and morally reprehensible.