http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030922-115056-2744r.htm

I say it is about time that white students have a place to congregate and discuss pride in their culture and heritage just as Latino, black, and East Asian/Oriental students do.

Your thoughts? Specifically on the supposed "tension" she is causing? And the racist response from some people in the school?

I don't think she's doing anything wrong. Even people of other races agree. However one made a good point.. from your link:

Darnell Turner, vice president of the East County National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said he fears the club could morph into a white-supremacy group after Lisa graduates.
"I think she's doing this for the right reasons, but what's going to happen when she graduates? What's it going to turn into?" said Mr. Turner, who added he was speaking for himself and not the NAACP.
He suggested that she change the name to the European-American Club so that the focus would be on heritage, not race.
He's kind of right. But if she chooses not to then so be it. She has a right to start a club to celebrate her heritage.

What I do dislike is when some clubs such as these (and I mean any club that is based on colour or race) discriminate against others. For example, if a coloured person has white heritage, he/she should be free to join her club as a white person who has african heritage should be free to join an african heritage club. Such clubs should exist to celebrate one's ancestry and heritage, not to exclude others just based on colour.

She should certainly not be abused or threatened for wanting to celebrate her ancestry. I think the treatment she has received has been horrible. And I hope she sticks to it. She, like everyone else, has a right to be proud of her ancestry.

Bells:

Well spoken! And I would agree: Mulattos who can show their white ancestry ought to be allowed in the club to celebrate that side of them.

However, I do find it odd that the only group which is considered as producing a "racial hatred group" after the non-hateful students leave, is the white group. Such concerns are likely not levelled against the various other ethnic and racial clubs. Considering hateful racial nationalism is found in all the races, this would seem to be unfounded.

As someone who would be considered a "mulatto" in many cultures, I have to agree. I'm equally proud of my European ancestry and heritage as I am of my African heritage and ancestry. I would never join any such a club however. I personally find them to be quite divisive. For example if you're joining a club for people with African ancestry, you can find yourself judged on your 'blackness' and I find such notions to be quite racist. That being said, I don't see why anyone can't start such a club celebrating their ancestry or heritage. If it became such a club that banned a person from joining because their colour did not fit the 'profile' of the club, even if they had the heritage that the club supported, I'd find that to be racist.

I've known of white people who have called me a 'nigger', just as I've known black people who have referred to me as a 'white bitch'. It seems that with olive skin I simply sit outside the box. I remember at while at uni some women kicked up a real fuss when some of the male students wanted to start a 'men's lounge room', seeing that female students had a 'female lounge room'. The female students found it to be sexist, ignoring the irony that they had such a room only for their sex as well. As a woman I supported the guys in wanting to have their own room as well. Equality goes both ways as does sexism. Sadly they failed and the uber feminists won in the end.

Political correctness can and does at times go mad. We are so afraid of offending anyone that we tend to become quite idiotic about it. Sure there are some racists out there who would want to take advantage of what this girl has done. The thing now is to not let them. Let anyone with European ancestry be proud to be so, no matter what their colour happens to be and the same should apply to everyone about their own particular ancestry or heritage. If you're white and have Asian, African, Native American, etc, ancestry then be proud of it and if you wish to join a club celebrating that particular heritage, you should be free to do so. The same applies to everyone else of mixed or ranged ancestry and heritage... be proud of who you are..

However, I do find it odd that the only group which is considered as producing a "racial hatred group" after the non-hateful students leave, is the white group. Such concerns are likely not levelled against the various other ethnic and racial clubs. Considering hateful racial nationalism is found in all the races, this would seem to be unfounded.

Ideally, we wouldn't have to suspect a white-pride club. But the fact of the matter is we whites have a long and famous history of regarding ourselves as the superior race and dominating other races, especially in the Western World. This is something you just can't say of other races. You are entirely correct that racial supremacy can be found in any race, but whites are just most notable for their history of racial supremacy.

Now that racism is, for the most part, frowned upon, whites are now in the predicament of trying to prove we've changed our ways. Again, ideally it would be enough to ensure all races are equal and regard ourselves as no better than anyone else. But we have a bad history that taints us and will taint us for at least a few more generations. So we're kinda stuck trying to compensate by 'bowing down' to other races.

Our problem is made worse by the fact that we're still the predominant race in the Western World. We're perceived here as the 'plain vanilla' race that still runs the show. It's generally perceived, by whites and others alike, that we don't have much reason to be proud of being white, and that we're being supremacist if we are.

All of this comes into play when someone declares that they are proud of being white, even if they don't mean it in a supremacist way. So it's completely understandable that we're wary of white supremacy cropping up in our society, and in a way this is good. It's just unfortunate that it has to 'force' us to bend over, and I'm all for changing that aspect of it.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030922-115056-2744r.htm

I say it is about time that white students have a place to congregate and discuss pride in their culture and heritage just as Latino, black, and East Asian/Oriental students do.

Your thoughts? Specifically on the supposed "tension" she is causing? And the racist response from some people in the school?

I think if other races do this, it would be racist to deny it.

In the Uk Xmas decorations now reflect NON Christian themes. We aren't allowed to celebrate Christianity publically the way other religions do. The world ahs gone mad.

Re this girl and her 'club' as long as her celebration of her heritage ALSO includes an honest historical outlook at the negative things we have engaged in over the years with recognition that we have since become tolerant and supportive to other races (world aid, charitable causes, loans, miltary support, education, health care etc) and that THIS acceptance, tolerance, and support is the 'better' way as oppose to encouraging a regression to negative ways of the past, there is no problem?

Organizations like this are socially acceptable in America only for ethnic or other groups that are A. minorities (black, Latino, Jewish, Italian-, German-, etc. -hyphenated Americans...) and/or B. discriminated against (black, Latino, Jewish, female, gay...). White people are still a comfortable majority and despite a generation of Affirmative Discrimination we are still generally perceived, even by ourselves, as being in charge.

Within my lifetime the KKK was a powerful enough organization to literally get away with murder. Within my lifetime many influential "service" groups, especially at the local level, were de facto networking clubs for WHITE businessMEN. We have to live that down. Maybe it's not fair, but what goes around comes around and unfortunately it usually comes down on the innocent children of the perps.

We will probably have to wait until no one alive remembers black people being killed for attempting to attend universities, or Asians being legally barred from living in tony San Marino in California, or Jews being excluded from many cemeteries, before a white-heritage club will not draw outrage. There are lots of people younger than me who remember that stuff--especially the victims who understandably were paying more attention--so this could be quite a wait.

The universal retort is, "You guys have the whole damn country. What do you need a club for? Go live in Japan and maybe they'll let you start your club."

As for these clubs being legally permitted, that's a different matter. With our political pendulum swinging back to Blue, Affirmative Discrimination will be reinvigorated, especially in academia, its last bastion. So it might be an uphill battle.

It's predicted that by mid-century California will become the first state with no ethnic majority. Latinos, blacks, Asians, whites, Native Americans and every other group I've failed to mention will either finally achieve the paradise Haile Selassie wished upon us ("The color of a man's skin is no more important than the color of his eyes") or else they will court each other to form coalitions. Assuming it's the latter (and it's easy to be a cynic about this), at that point it will be hard to deny white people their own Anti-Defamation League, European Heritage Association and English Language Club.

Or else we could take the advice from the movie "Bulworth."

"Everybody's got to keep fuckin' everybody until they're all the same color."

I don't know about you but to me that sounds like a lot more fun than starting a club.

Prince James: However, I do find it odd that the only group which is considered as producing a "racial hatred group" after the non-hateful students leave, is the white group. Such concerns are likely not levelled against the various other ethnic and racial clubs. Considering hateful racial nationalism is found in all the races, this would seem to be unfounded.

Its reverse racism rearing its stupid head. The idea that the group may somehow morph into a white supremacist organization because white's have a history of domination is besides the point. I know it has become popular in the States to act pre-emptively but I think its wrong to assume that whites are innately racist the moment we put a bunch of them in a room together to discuss western civilization and its achievements. Why are any of these groups exclusive in a school is beyond me, I mean its quite possible that a non-asian might want to learn more about Asian culture etc and visit the group as a means of cross-cultural exchange. If the issue got out of hand its because the school administration isn't creative enough to support the educational aspects of these groups. For example they can suggest that all groups take a critical look at their histories and culture as well as highlighting the achievements. Being afraid of, or banning, a white pride group isn't in the interest of diversity instead it implies whites cannot be trusted, that there is something wrong with them.

Theory: we have since become tolerant and supportive to other races (world aid, charitable causes, loans, miltary support, education, health care etc)

One can easily argue that international aid, IMF, World Bank loans and military aid do not help non-western developing nations but instead create a culture of dependency, a form of neo-colonialism and control over the other's resoruces. One just needs to read 'Lords of Poverty', 'Despite Good Intentions' and 'I Didn't Do It For You'. Maybe its better to find other examples of tolerance and support.

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=65-0871134691-2

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Despite-Good-Intentions-Development-Assistance/dp/155849393X

http://www.amazon.com/Didnt-Do-You-Betrayed-African/dp/0060780932

My ethnic background is Jewish and Mexican. My skin is the right color, though. Can I join?

Yes but keep you might have to leave your tamales and yalmaka at door.

Edit notice:
Yarmulke.

That's dick. Skin colors don't have heritages. Also, I think it's spelled yarmulke.

That IS dick.
I don't think you should be able to join the group.
Or vote.

Its been corrected. No I don't think they'll make you leave your dick at the door.

That IS dick.
I don't think you should be able to join the group.
Or vote.

I agree.

Bells:

If it became such a club that banned a person from joining because their colour did not fit the 'profile' of the club, even if they had the heritage that the club supported, I'd find that to be racist.

That would be most certainly, yes.

Athelwulf:

This is something you just can't say of other races.

Pardon me?

The Jews call themselves the chosen people and have a history of self-imposed segregation and affirmed separateness.

A number of black and latino radical groups still remain today. MS-13 has huge issues with racist nationalism, and of course, the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam are the KKK of blacks.

The Chinese and Japanese are historically and contemporarily known for their racism and sense of superiority.

The only difference is that in the Western world, whites are the majority. We also tend to ignore the racism of other groups.

TheoryOfRelativity:

In the Uk Xmas decorations now reflect NON Christian themes. We aren't allowed to celebrate Christianity publically the way other religions do. The world ahs gone mad.

Hasn't it?

Fraggle Rocker:

We will probably have to wait until no one alive remembers black people being killed for attempting to attend universities, or Asians being legally barred from living in tony San Marino in California, or Jews being excluded from many cemeteries, before a white-heritage club will not draw outrage. There are lots of people younger than me who remember that stuff--especially the victims who understandably were paying more attention--so this could be quite a wait.

But really, why should we? Why should we wait until others shut up? Moreover, how are we ever to have pride if we squelch it now?

Lucysnow:

Its reverse racism rearing its stupid head.

Don't use that term. It is extremely Orwellian. It is racism plain and simple - not reverse racism because it is whites being targetted unfairly. Or reenforces the beliefs that things like this article address in regards to the opposition.

Baumgarten:

My ethnic background is Jewish and Mexican. My skin is the right color, though. Can I join?

The term white means Indo-European broadly, European specifically. So no. Go back to your spicy matza balls, heathen!

(I, of course, am kidding.)

Prince James: the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam are the KKK of blacks.

I think I understand your point refering to the term 'reverse racism' but I don't think you can place the Black Panthers in the same category as the KKK. The Nation of Islam has anti-white and anti-semetic sentiments but I don't believe that to be a part of the Black Panther agenda. The KKK actively went out to destroy black people and their property, the other two groups have never to my knowledge engaged in aggressive acts towards whites and or jews.

white heritage group?
in a white country? such as america?

why?

all one has to do is open ones eyes and walk out the door
the language/culture/architecture/cuisine/technology/holidays/whatnot, is the product of western civ

a typical school curriculum will include history. western history that is.

what more does one need?
additional reinforcement of identity?
how sad

this must be the beginning of the end

pardon me

what does the indo part of indo-european signify?

OThe universal retort is, "You guys have the whole damn country. What do you need a club for? Go live in Japan and maybe they'll let you start your club."

oh dear
universal?

i thought i was being smart

run of the mill
humdrum
common
universal!

/blows brains out



/bliss

It's a good idea, but awful name. With the name 'Caucasian Club', Arabs, Jews, North Africans, some southern and central Asians, and many other groups would have a way in. Since these things are typically intended to be exclusive, not inclusive, she ought to rename it 'The Non-Albino White Heritage Club' or some such thing. I wish her good luck with it.

as a born again aryan supremacist, i refuse to include the greeks as part of my heritage. they are nothing but niggers

pardon me
any greeks around?
i must spit on them

thanks

I'm equally proud of my European ancestry and heritage as I am of my African heritage and ancestry.

i say
my dear bells
i thought you were an indian

This Greek doesn't look African to me:

http://static.flickr.com/54/139242020_341a9209e9_m.jpg

heh
rather obvious half breed
i am mystified as to why you cannot see that

the musculature
the package

negroid

mmmm

the package!!

lord hillyer

more pics please
thanks

Oh dear. Universal? I thought i was being smart.Sorry. :( There's a reason we old guys say, "I've heard it all." It's because we have.

This Greek doesn't look African to me:

http://static.flickr.com/54/139242020_341a9209e9_m.jpg
He looks so... male stripper(ish)..

Like the kind of guy (and I use the term loosely) who pouts, prances and checks his hair each time he sees his own reflection..

Fabio a la short hair.. cheesy..

i say
my dear bells
i thought you were an indian
Nope my dear Gusty..

He looks so... male stripper(ish).

And just how would you know, Bells?? ...much experience?? :)

Baron Max

And just how would you know, Bells?? ...much experience?? :)

Baron Max
Hen's nights of many varied friends. They're just so ugh though... Seen one greased up, artificially tanned, with hair cut just so male specimen tearing off velcro pants to reveal a sequined g-string, seen 'em' all.. *yawns*..

Pardon me?

You heard me.

The Jews call themselves the chosen people and have a history of self-imposed segregation and affirmed separateness.

And they have a long and infamous history of moving, enslaving, and killing people of other races, in the Western World, just because they weren't the same race?

A number of black and latino radical groups still remain today. MS-13 has huge issues with racist nationalism, and of course, the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam are the KKK of blacks.

And they have tainted themselves with an infamous and obvious history of racial supremacy? Have they enslaved an entire racial demographic in the Western World? Would the average person off the street think that the whities have been outdone in the course of US history?

The Chinese and Japanese are historically and contemporarily known for their racism and sense of superiority.

And this happened in the Western World?

All of the above has had an obvious impact on the history of the Western World just as white supremacy has? Especially on the history of the US, from whose point of view I am speaking? Context, James...

The only difference is that in the Western world, whites are the majority. We also tend to ignore the racism of other groups.

You're on the right track here. The racism exhibited in white people is most obvious to us because it's ingrained in the history of the Western World. Conversely, the average Westerner probably doesn't see much racism in anyone other than whites because it's not ingrained in our history. The very fact that you have to inform some people of exactly how racist other races can be proves my point, which is that whites have the most to make up for in Western civilization.

I repeat: In the history of the Western World, white supremacy has been the most obvious and most influencial racial supremacy. And since we're speaking from the point of view of the US, this is all that matters in this discussion. I had hoped it was understood by everyone, including you, that the context was the Western World, and the US in particular, since you started the thread about the club in a California high school being met with outrage from fellow Californians. To prevent derailment of your own thread, I recommend starting another thread that broadens on this topic if you want to do so.

Why do people even need to start a club to celebrate their heritage anyway? Do you really need to prove to the world that you're proud of your heritage? Why can't you just be proud and move on with your life and avoid all this unnecessary conflict?

Um.. yeah. I suppose the answer, fruityfigtree, is that some people feel a bit insignificant without having similar people to bond with. Sciforums has its own little white heritage club - did you know that? I expect you'll come across them eventually.

Why do people even need to start a club to celebrate their heritage anyway? Do you really need to prove to the world that you're proud of your heritage? Why can't you just be proud and move on with your life and avoid all this unnecessary conflict?People inherit cultural traditions from their immigrant ancestors that become part of their lives. Food, songs, holidays, dances, games, folk tales, they don't want to lose those and who can blame them. Even the language, as a linguist I strongly urge people to be bilingual because it gives them the advantage of two subtly different points of view within a single head.

As outsiders, it's difficult to keep those things alive if you don't maintain a community-within-a-community in which to practice and celebrate them. (These days, perhaps with the exception of cuisine.)

Still, not every ethnic community deals with their situation the same way. Chinese people, no matter where they are, call the rest of us "foreigners" and are serene in the enduring reslience of their culture. Long after I broke up with my Chinese girlfriend, the Chinese community in L.A. accepted me unremarkably and I was always welcome at events. They made no concessions to me, even though I barely know enough Chinese to follow the gist of a conversation, but I always liked the food. They weren't troubled by having "foreigners" around and were happy to answer my questions about their culture in English.

I know the Chinese are hardly the only people who are able to celebrate their culture without being exclusionary about it, it's just an example. Groups should not feel threatened by the infiltration of outsiders who probably are more interested in experiencing an exotic culture than in proselytizing assimilation.

Which comes back to the rationale behind creating a White Heritage Club. Football, cowboy boots and Davy Crockett are everywhere. No group has to get together in the community center once a month to practice speaking English with their children, feed them hot dogs, expose them to the music of the Eagles, and teach them about the Civil War.

The motivation of these organizers is suspect. The United States truly is one giant White Heritage Club and all outsiders are not merely encouraged but entreated to join.

and join they do
perhaps not immediately
usually by the 2nd generation

american schmerican
i'll be damned if i let my daughter go out with those filthy guineas
aryan purity, y'know

The last information I got, which was about ten years ago, agrees. Latin Americans assimilate the fastest; their out-marriage rate is so high that by the third generation it's hard to find anyone identifiable with the ethnic group. Certain Asian cultures are the slowest, but by the third generation their out-marriage rate is about 75%. Interestingly, the racism usually goes the other way: I'm not letting my kid go out with those lazy, illiterate, innumerate Americans.

I see nothing wrong with having an all White Club. But I'll gaurantee you that the member of this all White Club has ZERO black friends.

What a tard, I would totally egg her house.

as a born again aryan supremacist, i refuse to include the greeks as part of my heritage. they are nothing but niggers

Ha Ha Gustav, the funny thing is that historians slam Afrocentrists who say that Greek culture was adopted from the Northen African culture!

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030922-115056-2744r.htm

I say it is about time that white students have a place to congregate and discuss pride in their culture and heritage just as Latino, black, and East Asian/Oriental students do.

Your thoughts? Specifically on the supposed "tension" she is causing? And the racist response from some people in the school?


I think we need MORE heritage groups on the university level. I'd be happy to see it, as long as minorities are welcomed into it. It would be a good thing, first of all not to call it white heritage, but European Heritage. We have European Studies currently, but there should be classes on all aspects of European Culture, that are open to all who wish to learn.


I would not call any group the "white" group because the name itself is racist. But a group on European culture, I think this is good as long as it's not "This group is for whites only".

Ha Ha Gustav, the funny thing is that historians slam Afrocentrists who say that Greek culture was adopted from the Northen African culture!

Truth is, culture has always been in constant movement. It's not like we will ever know who created what. It's important that each culture is fairly represented on the college campus, including cultures I dislike.

This means yes, there should be classes on Nazism, even if it's not a popular idea, or popular class, there should be a history of Nazism course. There should be a history of Racism course. There should be a history of Afrocentrism course. There should be a history of Hate course.

I'd basically refine it down to a course on human history, in specific I'd call it the dark side of human history, and highlight all of that stuff. In fact I'd let people major in the dark side of human history and ONLY study our greatest failures (or accomplishments depending on their views). This means I'd let people learn as much as they want about Nazism, slavery, torture, or any other gorey hateful history.

I'm not politically correct because I think the politically correct way of hiding reality is exactly why there is more racism, more hate, and more problems. You cannot solve a problem that you cannot even study because it's politicially incorrect to discuss it. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think racists or nazi's should be teaching classes on Nazism, in fact I'd think it would be cool if a Jew taught a class on Nazism, or if a white male taught a class on Racism, or any of these issues.

When I see a blonde White male teaching a class on Nazism, or a Black male teaching a class on Racism, it's not going to show me a full perspective. I'd want the JEWISH perspective. I'd want the WHITE MALE perspective. Basically, the only way to understand any issue, is to understand it from every possible perspective.

I'd want to ask the white male when he last experienced racism, and then have the discussion from a new perspective. The black male experiencing and highlighting racism is the old perspective and it's the MAIN reason why no one learns anything.

So next time you discuss an issue, flip the perspectives.

I say it is about time that white students have a place to congregate and discuss pride in their culture and heritage just as Latino, black, and East Asian/Oriental students do.

Why would anyone be against this?

Infoterror:

Beats me. The rampant white guilt and anti-white racism in society today is pretty pronounced, though.

Infoterror:

Beats me. The rampant white guilt and anti-white racism in society today is pretty pronounced, though.

No Because History has shown us when Whites formed all White groups it was usually done for nefarious purposes. Nazi's, KKK, Skinheads, Arayan Brotherhood etc. Take a look at the NAACP. It has acting members of all races.

Infoterror:

Beats me. The rampant white guilt and anti-white racism in society today is pretty pronounced, though.

What is White Guilt? And when did it start, and Why? Please enlighten me.

Google "white guilt" before you waste his time.

I think attitudes toward this are changing. White people are realizing they're a tiny minority in the world at large, and it seems everyone else believes they're a "have not" entitled to take from the white "haves."

Gonna be a rockin' war between USA and China at least.

I say it is about time that white students have a place to congregate and discuss pride in their culture and heritage just as Latino, black, and East Asian/Oriental students do."About time"? About frelling time??? Dammit, you kids are allowed to coast through school and allegedly "grow up" without learning anything.

You're just aren't getting it. Until very recently, THAT'S ALL THERE WAS! White history, white culture, white heritage.You'd have to enter a PhD program in history or philosophy to even find out that there was any South or East Asian culture. As for black people, according to history books the only black person who ever accomplished anything was George Washington Carver. Other than that, black people served only as slaves, which made them really important for a little while because we got to have a war over slavery, except it was really all about the good Northern white people and the bad Southern white people. There were no Latinos in human culture.Do you guys get it now??? In Euro-American civilization the entire rest of the human race was treated as a supporting cast FOREVER. We didn't need clubs to learn about our heritage. We had these things called "schools" and "newspapers" and "television." The only show on TV about black people was called "Amos 'n' Andy" and it was such a racist caricature that it's hard to believe that talented black actors and actresses were desperate enough to accept the work.

I must say, I'm heartened to see that an entire generation of kids has grown up not realizing this. Now you do. So cut the folks some slack, okay? Let them have this for a generation or two. You can afford to be generous since your ancestors were so bloody self-absorbed.

You grew up with Eddie Murphy and George Lopez, high school classes in Chinese and Indian civilization. The Discovery Channel.

We didn't have that stuff and neither did the blacks, Latinos and Asian-Americans.

Fraggle Rocker:

As for black people, according to history books the only black person who ever accomplished anything was George Washington Carver.

It's not my fault that there is a poverty of black cultural achievement in America aside from Carver, Douglass, and King. Maybe a Hughes and Louis Armstrong.

In fact: There really is no such thing as "black history". The achievement of blacks in America have been mostly peripheral. There has been no equivalent, as it were, to a black George Washington.

There were no Latinos in human culture.

And since their introduction they've not done much here in the USA.

Do you guys get it now??? In Euro-American civilization the entire rest of the human race was treated as a supporting cast FOREVER.

In America, this really has been the case. World wide, there are only three other races that have really made much difference: Semites (Arabs and Jews), Turkics, and East Asians/Orientals.

Basically, the history of the world is the history of Eurasia and North Africa.

Given a few thousand years, we might have also found that Central America could have contributed more, too. But that was not to be.

The only show on TV about black people was called "Amos 'n' Andy" and it was such a racist caricature that it's hard to believe that talented black actors and actresses were desperate enough to accept the work.

It actually was a pretty funny show, though.

You can afford to be generous since your ancestors were so bloody self-absorbed.

And our ancestors also pretty much made every non-Eurasian race civilized. So yes, we "spread the love" a bit, too.

It's not my fault that there is a poverty of black cultural achievement in America aside from Carver, Douglass, and King. Maybe a Hughes and Louis Armstrong. In fact: There really is no such thing as "black history". The achievement of blacks in America have been mostly peripheral. There has been no equivalent, as it were, to a black George Washington.
How can a minority (i.e. fewer people) who have only been allowed to vote for about fifty years in some states, have participated in a more significant way?
Also, there is no equivalent to a white european shaka zulu in black africa either.

And since their introduction they've not done much here in the USA.
And what a great head start their "introduction" gave them on contributing to the intellectual advances of middle and early american history. A person would have to have a wooden head to miss the differences in social advantage that the rich whites have had through all of american history. And latinos in the previous century have done a lot to fight economic pressure to devalue human rights in this country.

It actually was a pretty funny show, though.
Yes'm massa, dem's a funny show. I likes dem watermelon jokes too.

And our ancestors also pretty much made every non-Eurasian race civilized. So yes, we "spread the love" a bit, too.
Pax Whitey with the barrel of a gun, and worldwide disenfranchisement and destruction of people groups is not something to be proud of. People who cannot handle the responsibility of power are not heroes.

This is good if it is just a way to poke fun at racial divisions.

However, one should remember that what is the great thing about "white" Western Civilization is precisely that it is colorblind, that those Dead White Men who created it created universal concepts that transcend particular cultures.

I'm in no way a cultural relativist, but I'm no racist. Yes, affirmative action is racist, and poking fun at it is funny. But reverse reactions can go too far.

Cole Grey:

How can a minority (i.e. fewer people) who have only been allowed to vote for about fifty years in some states, have participated in a more significant way?

They shouldn't be expected to have done such. it is perfectly reasonable that a minority oughtn't be more than proportionally important to that culture. But actually, all black men have been given the right to vote for over a hundred years now. In all states. Although there were some discriminatory practices.

Also, there is no equivalent to a white european shaka zulu in black africa either.

Well considering all advancement in Africa is owing to Islamic and white influence, I would not go as far as to say that.

And what a great head start their "introduction" gave them on contributing to the intellectual advances of middle and early american history. A person would have to have a wooden head to miss the differences in social advantage that the rich whites have had through all of american history.

This is true, but one still cannot say they have contributed when they have not.

And latinos in the previous century have done a lot to fight economic pressure to devalue human rights in this country.

Can you name any major figures aside from Cesar Chavez?

Yes'm massa, dem's a funny show. I likes dem watermelon jokes too.

You'll note that the same types of jokes are still used on TV today. Also, black people -did- speak that way in most areas of the country at the time.

Pax Whitey with the barrel of a gun, and worldwide disenfranchisement and destruction of people groups is not something to be proud of. People who cannot handle the responsibility of power are not heroes.

There has never been an instance where the white man has eradicated a race. All the races which he met exist today (although not in the same culture). In the mean time, he has given each of them civilization. Pacific Islanders, Australian Aboriginees, Negros, North and South American Indians (with the exclusion of some societies in Mexico which were developing civilization) all were risen from the stone age into the modern world by the white man's actions.

Sandoz:

But reverse reactions can go too far.

I do not intend to nitpick, but the usage of the term "reverse racism" is a really Orwellian phrase. It implies that only whites can be racist.

And our ancestors also pretty much made every non-Eurasian race civilized. So yes, we "spread the love" a bit, too.Huh? Civilization has only been invented in six different times and places on Earth: Mesopotamia, India, China, Egypt, Olmec, and Inca. Our ancestors obliterated the last two. If you're counting the Muslims of Mesopotamia as "Eurasian" then they also get credit for destroying Egyptian civilization, although in that case they at least left many of the records and artifacts intact.

I don't see how you can give one people credit for "civilizing" others when the first thing they did was to destroy their original civilizations, and to deprive the human race of half of its sources of culture. The world is poorer for colonialism. The damage is irreversible and no amount of clever wordsmithing can ever repair the loss.

I do not intend to nitpick, but the usage of the term "reverse racism" is a really Orwellian phrase. It implies that only whites can be racist.That's good, because I did not use that phrase. :)

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/h/hu-1990s.gif

The world is poorer for colonialism. The damage is irreversible and no amount of clever wordsmithing can ever repair the loss.

How can you accurately say that when you have no idea what might have happened if everything had been left as is? The Inca's or Mayan's might have conquered the world and subjected all of us to their inhumane human sacrifices. Would that have been better???

I find such conclusions not only boring and historically inaccurate, but highly ignorant of the ways of humans. Now if one could prove that they can see into the future, then....?

Baron Max

I can see the future. That flag I posted...the world's next super-power(after China).

There wasn't any muslims in Mesopotamia.

What?

Mesopotamia and islam happened at different times.

What's that have to do with this thread?

Fraggle Rocker used the term " muslims of Mesopotamia" in one of his posts in this thread. I'm just trying to keep the history straight.

But actually, all black men have been given the right to vote for over a hundred years now. In all states. Although there were some discriminatory practices.
Being given a right which you cannot exercise is pure lip-service. It was equal in practice to not having the right until social situations caught up to the law.
Well considering all advancement in Africa is owing to Islamic and white influence, I would not go as far as to say that.
Is this a ridiculous statement? Consider your use of the word "all". Why not speak intelligently and, at most, say "most". Also, egypt which was neither islamic nor white, was the source of great advancement for the whole world, not just africa.
Can you name any major figures aside from Cesar Chavez?
There have been many hispanic social activists and artists who have made a great difference in this society, struggling against the Pax Whitey.

You'll note that the same types of jokes are still used on TV today.
The majority of television programming and advertisement is for stupid people. If you want to use that as a defense of something you have a strange sense of justification.

There has never been an instance where the white man has eradicated a race. All the races which he met exist today (although not in the same culture). In the mean time, he has given each of them civilization. Pacific Islanders, Australian Aboriginees, Negros, North and South American Indians (with the exclusion of some societies in Mexico which were developing civilization) all were risen from the stone age into the modern world by the white man's actions.
Let me ask a simple question that will illustrate the reality of this situation.
Suppose an alien race with more developed technology came to earth and asked if we would prefer to stay at our level of technology or give up 90% of our people to either be removed from their birth places and put into wasteland areas or be killed in exchange for the technological development of our society, not up to, but to somewhat near their level.

And that 90% will of course be taken from the limited survivors of the infectious diseases that are brought by the aliens.
That is what happened to the north american indian, so answer that question.
I would answer, "no thanks", not, "sure, spread the love."

Cole Grey:

Being given a right which you cannot exercise is pure lip-service. It was equal in practice to not having the right until social situations caught up to the law.

There were black members of the federal government during reconstruction.

Is this a ridiculous statement? Consider your use of the word "all". Why not speak intelligently and, at most, say "most". Also, egypt which was neither islamic nor white, was the source of great advancement for the whole world, not just africa.

Egypt was not, however, Negro in foundation. This is what is generally meant by "African". Moreover, I have quantified that Eurasia and Northern Africa had developed civilization (this includes the Egyptians and Phonecians).

But okay, "the vast majority".

There have been many hispanic social activists and artists who have made a great difference in this society, struggling against the Pax Whitey.

Again, can you name any of widespread importance? American Latinos/Hispanics, mind you.

Suppose an alien race with more developed technology came to earth and asked if we would prefer to stay at our level of technology or give up 90% of our people to either be removed from their birth places and put into wasteland areas or be killed in exchange for the technological development of our society, not up to, but to somewhat near their level.

How good is their technology? Moreover, life wasn't peaches and cream for thees people. They lived in the paleolithic age.

And that 90% will of course be taken from the limited survivors of the infectious diseases that are brought by the aliens.

Considering germ theory was not known to the Europeans or American Indians...

Also, you do realize we got syphillus from the Indians, yes?

Black people are generally better at boxing though.

There were black members of the federal government during reconstruction.
There may have been jews in positions of power while the majority of jewish people were enslaved in egypt - does that make the majority free?
Egypt was not, however, Negro in foundation.
Most egyptians shown in visual representations from the time periods which demonstrated social advancement have some negroid physical characteristics. Egyptians are as "black" as modern mexicans are spanish, or mestizo, i.e. it varies, but the egyptians are quite obviously anything but caucasian.

Again, can you name any of widespread importance? American Latinos/Hispanics, mind you.
Widespread notoriety is not a requirement for involvement, and usefulness.
How good is their technology? Moreover, life wasn't peaches and cream for thees people. They lived in the paleolithic age.
Let's say the alien technology is as different as the spaniards' was to the central-american indians. Can you honestly say the aliens would be "spreading the love" if most of us have to die to get it?
Also, you do realize we got syphillus from the Indians, yes?
As far as i know syphilis did not kill over half of the population of europe. The diseases we introduced killed more than half the population of american indians.
Wouldn't that be enough? Just inadvertently kill at least 60% of the population and use the abundant resources left over by those people's disappearance.
No, that isn't good enough for Whitey, he has to OWN it all.

Fraggle Rocker used the term " muslims of Mesopotamia" in one of his posts in this thread. I'm just trying to keep the history straight.

Mesopotamia = "between the rivers" in Greek.

It's a place, not a people.

As far as i know syphilis did not kill over half of the population of europe. The diseases we introduced killed more than half the population of american indians.
Wouldn't that be enough? Just inadvertently kill at least 60% of the population and use the abundant resources left over by those people's disappearance.
No, that isn't good enough for Whitey, he has to OWN it all.

The Aztecs would have done the same thing, had they been going the other way.

Demonizing white people is retarded. Every other group of people have shown the same behavior when given the chance.

On top, you try to claim that black people = white people, but white people are bad because they hurt black people.

Why bother making the distinction? I thought we're all equal.

The Aztecs would have done the same thing, had they been going the other way.
Demonizing white people is retarded. Every other group of people have shown the same behavior when given the chance.
The aztecs, yes, probably. Would the hospitable blackfoot indians have done the same? Probably not. The peaceful pueblo indians? I doubt it.

I am not making a comment on white genetics and calling them monsters, but to ignore the failings of white societies in dealing with the responsibility of power, or to call the violent dominance, "spreading the love" is a joke.
On top, you try to claim that black people = white people, but white people are bad because they hurt black people. Why bother making the distinction? I thought we're all equal.
Humans are equal, however, all societal systems are ABSOLUTELY NOT equal. The goths and the greeks are not equally valuable societal systems although each individual Goth or Greek would be. If black people had dominated whites, they would be the ones who have failed in their responsibiliity to act humanely. I agree that saying white genetics are responsible for the many violent societies we have created would be a bad distinction to make.

Cole Grey:

There may have been jews in positions of power while the majority of jewish people were enslaved in egypt - does that make the majority free?

I'm fairly certain that, aside from MOses (assuming the historicity of the account), there were none such.

Also, there was no slavery following the Civil War. There were share croppers which were dirt poor and intimidated, but no slavery.

Most egyptians shown in visual representations from the time periods which demonstrated social advancement have some negroid physical characteristics. Egyptians are as "black" as modern mexicans are spanish, or mestizo, i.e. it varies, but the egyptians are quite obviously anything but caucasian.

This topic has actually been spoken about just recently here in the Free Thoughts section. The results shown by many posters, including myself, undeniably point to a non-Negroid foundation. But of course the Egyptians didn't hail from the Caucacus. They were more likely a race similar to later Phonecians and Semites.

Widespread notoriety is not a requirement for involvement, and usefulness.

Certainly it is. That is how we judge "important cultural figure".

Let's say the alien technology is as different as the spaniards' was to the central-american indians. Can you honestly say the aliens would be "spreading the love" if most of us have to die to get it?

And I'm assuming their culture also had the benefit of other superior things? Like you know, not being butchered to the Gods?

As far as i know syphilis did not kill over half of the population of europe. The diseases we introduced killed more than half the population of american indians.

A lack of immunity sucks badly. Although you will note that siphillus was an epidemic in Europe and America. In fact, it is still a major problem.

Wouldn't that be enough? Just inadvertently kill at least 60% of the population and use the abundant resources left over by those people's disappearance.
No, that isn't good enough for Whitey, he has to OWN it all.

Actually, there wasn't much in the way of killing people after that. There was no equivalent to devestating the empires of Central America. The Indian wars were mostly low-level events. THey were also inevitable, considering the temperment of both sides.

But yes, to the victors belong the spoils.

I'm fairly certain that, aside from MOses (assuming the historicity of the account), there were none such.
Point being, the inclusion of a few token members does not an equality, (or an opportunity) make, and that is an undeniable fact.
Also, there was no slavery following the Civil War. There were share croppers which were dirt poor and intimidated, but no slavery.
Who is talking about slavery? I am talking about inclusion in society, i.e. voting and receiving public services, the most important of which being schooling.
Following from the poor beginnings of blacks in this country, the fact that they have given valuable input, even if in some areas it may not have been as great as the input given by the priviledged, wealthy, and powerful majority, is reason enough not to denigrate their acheivements - the achievements are as great, on an individual level, given the circumstances, as any other great achievements of those who have had more opportunity.
This topic has actually been spoken about just recently here in the Free Thoughts section. The results shown by many posters, including myself, undeniably point to a non-Negroid foundation. But of course the Egyptians didn't hail from the Caucacus. They were more likely a race similar to later Phonecians and Semites.
The non-negroid foundation is not undeniable, or people would not be denying it. The only thing that is undeniable is that they were africans. Maybe the rulers of egypt were lighter skinned, and they didn't look like southern africans, but some of the egyptians appear, in graphic representations and carvings including coffins, as having the same negroid physical characteristics as your average "black".
Certainly it is. That is how we judge "important cultural figure".
Were the chinese important cultural figures in the creation of the railroads in the american west? What were their names?
And I'm assuming their culture also had the benefit of other superior things? Like you know, not being butchered to the Gods?
How many north american indians butchered people to their gods???????
The spanish, middle eastern, and white europeans have butchered more people to their gods than anybody.
A lack of immunity sucks badly. Although you will note that siphillus was an epidemic in Europe and America. In fact, it is still a major problem.
It didn't kill a majority of the population, so it doesn't compare.

But yes, to the victors belong the spoils.
Responsible use of power = good.
Misuse of power = evil.

Cole Grey:

Point being, the inclusion of a few token members does not an equality make, and that is an undeniable fact.

The United States works under Democratic Republican rules. You have to be elected to win. Moreover, again, no legal rights were denied blacks.

Who is talking about slavery? I am talking about inclusion in society, i.e. voting and receiving public services, the most important of which being schooling.

Blacks could vote. They just had to suffer the consequences of it. Moreover, "public services" were basically non-existent in pre-welfare United States. Few people got anything from Uncle Sam but a draft or jury notice.

Similarly, schools were provided to blacks. The schools were crap is all. Although considering the states of "inner city schools today", this might not be an innocent issue.

Following from the poor beginnings of blacks in this country, the fact that they have given valuable input, even if in some areas it may not have been as great as the input given by the priviledged, wealthy, and powerful majority, is reason enough not to denigrate their acheivements - the achievements are as great, on an individual level, given the circumstances, as any other great achievements of those who have had more opportunity.

I'd rather treat blacks as people rather than children. One does not place a child's scribblings on part with the Sistine Chapel.

The non-negroid foundation is not undeniable, or people would not be denying it. The only thing that is undeniable is that they were africans. Maybe the rulers of egypt were lighter skinned, and they didn't look like southern africans, but some of the egyptians appear, in graphic representations and carvings including coffins, as having the same negroid physical characteristics as your average "black".

Actually, the denial mostly stems from Black Supremacist movements and misinformation in the popular media (Cleopatra shown as black on many TV shows and movies).

And few, if any, actually have the negroid features which you speak of. Some, yes, and there were certainly some Negroid population, but Egyptian historical records conclusively show a cultural and racial rift between Egypt and Negroid Africa.

Were the chinese important cultural figures in the creation of the railroads in the american west? What were their names?

There weren't any, as hard work can be done by any race. The Chinese have virtually done nothing for American society.

How many north american indians butchered people to their gods???????
The spanish, middle eastern, and white europeans have butchered more people to their gods than anybody.

I was referencing Central American ritualistic cannibalism. Also, the American Indians were very much obsessed, in many tribes, with scalping and other warrior practices, which though not cannibalistic (although some tribes may have been) is nonetheless very war-hungry.

Really, whites and North American Indians are not too different in that regard.

It didn't kill a majority of the population, so it doesn't compare.

True, but it is still something they "gave back". Of course, NEITHER side can be blamed, considering germ theory was unknown.

Responsible use of power = good.
Misuse of power = evil.

Civilizing the world and bringing the world population into the modern era = good.
Staying in the stone age eating and killing eachother = evil.

The United States works under Democratic Republican rules. You have to be elected to win. Moreover, again, no legal rights were denied blacks.
Blacks could vote. They just had to suffer the consequences of it. Moreover, "public services" were basically non-existent in pre-welfare United States. Few people got anything from Uncle Sam but a draft or jury notice.
You must agree, if you are sane, that being allowed to vote with possible serious consequences is not the same as being allowed to vote with no possible negative consequences.]Similarly, schools were provided to blacks. The schools were crap is all. Although considering the states of "inner city schools today", this might not be an innocent issue.
Art supplies were provided to that guy, it just happened to be a pencil and a roll of toilet paper. Whatever.
I'd rather treat blacks as people rather than children. One does not place a child's scribblings on part with the Sistine Chapel. One does not falsely attribute the creation of the sistine chapel to european "superiority". The indians of central america built structures as impressive. The egyptians more so.

Actually, the denial mostly stems from Black Supremacist movements and misinformation in the popular media (Cleopatra shown as black on many TV shows and movies). And few, if any, actually have the negroid features which you speak of. Some, yes, and there were certainly some Negroid population, but Egyptian historical records conclusively show a cultural and racial rift between Egypt and Negroid Africa.
I absolutely deny your idea that "negroid africa" had no influence in the geneteic make-up of the egyptians.
[3] A study based on stature and body proportions also suggests that Nilotic or tropical body characteristics were also present in some later groups, as the Egyptian empire expanded southward during the New Kingdom.[4]

1) If some north africans look like Greeks, as is shown if you look up a few north african people groups (here is a link with many links to pictures of berbers of all stripes-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers), why would herodotus write - "the Colchians are Egyptians... on the fact that they are dark-skinned (melanchrôs) and wooly-haired (oulothrix)" (Histories Book 2:104)." Also, the egyptians fought the berbers, so their ancestry was probably at least a little different.
2) Please notice the studies on badarian physical traits conclude that they were most likely a hybrid who exhibited characteristics of multiple african regions. Even more telling is that the studies didn't even include the elongated skulls of the east africans, who would have to be described as "black", and including those skulls as negroid would probably show the badarians as exhibiting negroid characteristics of that type.
3) nilotic traits during the new kingdom indicate a more negroid influence.

Also Mediterranean influences were more predominant in the north, while a tropical pattern was also evident in the deep south.[21][22][23][24] When Lower and Upper Egypt were unified c. 3150 BC, the distinction began to blur, resulting in a more "homogeneous" population in Egypt, though the distinction remains true to some degree to this day.[25][26][27]
4) a population of mediterranean AND tropical influence.

Referencing points 1-4:
All in all, it is quite obvious that there is absolutely no conclusion that negroid influence was not part of the development of the ancient egyptian. EDIT - QED on that point.


There weren't any, as hard work can be done by any race. The Chinese have virtually done nothing for American society.
The white guy that hired the chinese built the railroads, and the chinese did nothing - what a ridiculously biased view point.
I was referencing Central American ritualistic cannibalism. Also, the American Indians were very much obsessed, in many tribes, with scalping and other warrior practices, which though not cannibalistic (although some tribes may have been) is nonetheless very war-hungry.
Really, whites and North American Indians are not too different in that regard.
I think you are misinformed about the prevalence of excessively violent practices among the north american tribes. the vast amount of migratory indians didn't even fight each other at all, much less practiec excessive violence. It is common knowledge that migratory peoples are less warlike.
Civilizing the world and bringing the world population into the modern era = good. Staying in the stone age eating and killing eachother = evil.
You cannot compare the numbers of people who are killed by knives and arrows to the massive destruction caused by our misuse of power.
You need to take that part of your little misleading sentence back.
Killing each other = evil.
Letting each people decide their own fate = good.
I am reminded of a story i saw in the paper about a group of tribesmen who left their paleolithic lives and walked into a city in south or central america, i don't remember exactly where. They did ok, they lived their lives, and then eventually decided they wanted to change. You cannot deny this is better than slavery, death, and forced change.

Cole Grey:

You must agree, if you are sane, that being allowed to vote with possible serious consequences is not the same as being allowed to vote with no possible negative consequences.

Team up together and fight back. Petition people in the government that are on your side...

One cannot blame the United States government for the viewpoints of her people.

Art supplies were provided to that guy, it just happened to be a pencil and a roll of toilet paper. Whatever.

Again: Let's consider the state of inner-city schools.

One does not falsely attribute the creation of the sistine chapel to european "superiority". The indians of central america built structures as impressive. The egyptians more so.

Aesthetic accomplishment is certainly not only a white thing. However, cultural achievement in America is certainly mainly a white matter.

I absolutely deny your idea that "negroid africa" had no influence in the geneteic make-up of the egyptians.

Certainly there were mulattos. I never denied this. Only that a mainstream Egyptian race and culture stood in opposition to the Negroids of Africa.

1) If some north africans look like Greeks, as is shown if you look up a few north african people groups (here is a link with many links to pictures of berbers of all stripes-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers), why would herodotus write - "the Colchians are Egyptians... on the fact that they are dark-skinned (melanchrôs) and wooly-haired (oulothrix)" (Histories Book 2:104)."

Dealt with in the other thread.

2) Please notice the studies on badarian physical traits conclude that they were most likely a hybrid who exhibited characteristics of multiple african regions. Even more telling is that the studies didn't even include the elongated skulls of the east africans, who would have to be described as "black", and including those skulls as negroid would probably show the badarians as exhibiting negroid characteristics of that type.

See above.

3) nilotic traits during the new kingdom indicate a more negroid influence.

I do not deny there was some Negroid influences. This is also dealt in the other thread.

The white guy that hired the chinese built the railroads, and the chinese did nothing - what a ridiculously biased view point.

Replace a Chinese workman with any other workman and you have no "Chinese influence". You don't get the same turn over when you replace heads of businesesses.

Dumb muscle, in essence, means nothing.

I think you are misinformed about the prevalence of excessively violent practices among the north american tribes. the vast amount of migratory indians didn't even fight each other at all, much less practiec excessive violence. It is common knowledge that migratory peoples are less warlike.

Tell that to the Turkics, Mongols, Bedouins, Parthians, Huns....

You cannot compare the numbers of people who are killed by knives and arrows to the massive destruction caused by our misuse of power.

Yes, amongst stone age populations I don't imagine you can discuss something fully equivalent to domination by a modern power.

Letting each people decide their own fate = good.

I think giving them such things as "electricity" and "modern medical care" is something to consider better than "decide their own fate".

I am reminded of a story i saw in the paper about a group of tribesmen who left their paleolithic lives and walked into a city in south or central america, i don't remember exactly where. They did ok, they lived their lives, and then eventually decided they wanted to change. You cannot deny this is better than slavery, death, and forced change.

Again: To the victors belong the spoils. The game was not "Oh my God, Europeans are going to enslave us!" it was "Oh my God, let's enslave these guys before they do the same to us!"

Ya know, I thought starting a group like this would be great in light of my search for college applications. "The Black Engineer Scholarship" "The Lationo Professional's Scholarship" "Women in Engineering Scholarship". Well, as a white male who is a member of apparently no minority, I plan on filling in the gap one day by founding the "White Male Scholarship", which I think would truely emphasize "equal rights". Yes, I realize that these cholarships are trying to aim at demographics who need financial support the most, but honestly, I have to wonder if scholarships the way they are reinforce the differences in ethnicity and "race"? If they treat everyone equal, TRUELY equal, will that help establish equality moreso than it is today?

I can see what the girl's point could've been.

Phew!! long thread and only skimmed....

Just thinking, hmmmmm....

Is it something to do with the notion of host and guest.

What I mean to say is that say we have a country like Australia which was invaded by White Europeans 1778.

The white governement established cities etc and from then on Australia has had the notion of being a white country in particular English and Christian ever since.
Therfore any other nationality is cosidered in sub consious terms as being a guest and not a resident.

So if you are a migrant from say Italy you will always be considered a being an Italian Australian instead of being simply an Australian. I tend to think as I am writing this that this could be an initial set up for fundamental discrimination seen in most countries no matter what racial colour they may be.
USA has a fundamental claim to being white and Christian any other colour or religion is considered as a guest. [ even though whites are in fact a guest in what was a country of indigenous possession.]

So the prevailing attitude generates guest clubs where as the host has the whole nation to play with the guest needs to find space of it´s own for any sense of national identity to evolve from guest to becoming eventually the host......

In a way women have also been treated historically as only being allowed to find comfort because a man allows her to do so, there fore a woman is also a "guest" in her own home and country.....

"....for the grace of man, women can exist...." sort of thing...

As men have traditionally always had the violent and psychological power to subdue women they are only safe by the grace of man.

So in a way sexism or sexual discrimination could have it´s roots in thie balance of power thing.....

Any way I thought I´d share the thought.......

Aesthetic accomplishment is certainly not only a white thing. However, cultural achievement in America is certainly mainly a white matter.
"Cultural" achievements that are uniquely american have come as often, or more often, from the minority, whether they were italian, irish, latino, asian, or black, than from the majority.
Intellectual achievements, in the majority, have come from the majority - so what?

Certainly there were mulattos. I never denied this. Only that a mainstream Egyptian race and culture stood in opposition to the Negroids of Africa.
The egyptians stood in opposition to the people of the middle east, the mediterraneans of north africa, AND the sub-saharan africans. I would classify east africans as "black", and would suggest to you that the egyptians COULD have been just as "black" as the east africans - look at this picture of the sarcophagus of tut. http://interoz.com/egypt/kids/History.htm
Dealt with in the other thread.See above.I do not deny there was some Negroid influences. This is also dealt in the other thread.
You didn't provide a specific thread, so saying this has been dealt with is useless.
It doesn't matter because, even if the questions have been dealt with to your satisfaction, the debate on egypt does not come from misconceptions caused by movies about cleopatra, and the evidence is far from incontrovertible.

Tell that to the Turkics, Mongols, Bedouins, Parthians, Huns....
Ok, I agree that migratory people are not always peaceful, but this has no effect on my point which was - the american indians were, as a majority, peaceful, and any ideas you have otherwise are unsupported by statistics.

I think giving them such things as "electricity" and "modern medical care" is something to consider better than "decide their own fate".
First of all we didn't "give" anything. We sold them that stuff at the expense of their homeland. Couldn't we "give" them medical care in return for their beaver pelts or whatever, instead of killing them and displacing them? That would be responsible use of power.
How about a fifty/fifty deal - you provide the land and workers, we provide the technology and the sales and we split the profits, plus whitey gets ten percent off the top for administration. That would have been a MILLION times better.
How about, you get ten percent for providing the workers and the land and raw materials - that would be a thousand times better.
Ask yourself whether the quality of life has improved for american indians as a group. At best you could say it has changed, and it is quite possibly worse - add in all the dead indians' experience of life and you can easily say it is overall a negative.
Your idea of improving a land is to make it more useful to the whites who now run it. Medical care is a necessity in large towns which only existed after the whites invaded. The whites put in electricity for themselves and their workers, NOT for the people.

All in all, at best you can say that whites have “spread change”, and at worst call it “evil”, never could you seriously call it “spreading the love”.


P.S. good post by QQ.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030922-115056-2744r.htm

I say it is about time that white students have a place to congregate and discuss pride in their culture and heritage just as Latino, black, and East Asian/Oriental students do.

Your thoughts? Specifically on the supposed "tension" she is causing? And the racist response from some people in the school?

Since some groups choose to unite under race, religion, sex, age, political ideology, sextual preferences, Choice of birth of a child, birth by sex of the child, age, ecology, ethnicity, Variation of race, relgion,economic status, musical preferece, birth defects, Fans of writers, musicions, cults, origins of life, reigious, scientfic, or magical, also unions of teachers, mechanics, firemen police, city or state of federal workers, teamsters, construction unions paying the prevailing wage, people of birth place, refugies of wars, survivors of ethnic cleansing, prisioners in jails, captured soilders of war, cripled soilders of was, land mine victem, victems of crime, rape, assault, money scams, sodomy, preists, reverons, rabies, monks, and capitalists, communists, socialists, people traped by dictatorships, revolusions, modernization, passification, terror, extremism, reunification, and some mild groups such as culb scouts boy scouts, brownies, girl scouts, base ball leagues, football league, T ball, soccer,extreme sports, olympic sports, bowling, darts, pool, cards. gambling(suckers), lottery, hyly, dog racing, horse racing, pissing contests,menssa groups, masons, kukluklux clan, astronomy groups (thats me) natzies, sandanesters, Quebeckers,(the girl are hot), European Union, united states, To tall people, too short people, too fat people, too skinny people, too smart people to dumb people, to petty people(padgents), to ugly people(the poor), undesirable people( the cops take care of them), ( you ever go to trafic court they are fat, foreign, black hispanic, long haired, to large or muscular, shaved head, pierceings, or have old cars, signs of poverty, maybe a loud muffiler, not all lights working, or maybe the driver looks malnuititioned, tatoos don't help, or they show you belong to a gang, or fought in a war, or you were in prision, and don't they tatoo a tear for every year in prision or something, and in school they had the year book club, the drama club, The debating team, not to mention all the sports teams, and there was always this secret society called the teachers pet society, or the kiss ass society, Who worked with the rat bastard society, who would sell out anybody to gain there freedom, or be alowed to brake the law and get away with it. Even make some friends with the boys in blue who also break the law to there advanyage, They have a star on there back liencese plate. that makes them and there family members amuned to the law, and don;t worry they think it's cool that they don't have to pay tickets while we have to. They even get family and friends off of tickets. There insurense don't go up but yours does. Ever been stuck in the risk pool because the cops keep giving you tickets while you are in the middle of trfic and everyone is going the same speed.
Sure start a new group of white people, who are we going to relaliate against who. Why do you think all these gangs are starting. groups or gangs. For protection from all the other groups. When people have to join groups it's because they are being attacked by other groups. I look forward to the day when it does'nt matter who you are or what you beleive. That you are treated equal and you can beleive what ever you want with out fear of retaliation, for what you beleive or what you look like.

Cole Grey:

"Cultural" achievements that are uniquely american have come as often, or more often, from the minority, whether they were italian, irish, latino, asian, or black, than from the majority.

Um, then why can't you name a single accomplishment from Latinos or Orientals?

Also, where they in the government? In authors of profound importance? In military commanders?

Also, do note that the Irish and Italians are white as anything. White does not mean WASP. White means Indo-European, specifically, European. However, the Irish and Italians haven't done incredibly for America, either. In terms of specific contributions.

Intellectual achievements, in the majority, have come from the majority - so what?

They are the foundation of any society?

The egyptians stood in opposition to the people of the middle east, the mediterraneans of north africa, AND the sub-saharan africans. I would classify east africans as "black", and would suggest to you that the egyptians COULD have been just as "black" as the east africans - look at this picture of the sarcophagus of tut.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:National_Geographic_-_King_Tut_face.jpg

The modern conception of what King Tut looks like. Moreover, there is nothing whatsoever about his sacrophagus that gives him an "East African" look.

Again, this is discussed elsewhere in detail. If you want to go there, do so. I'd be happy to show you, in my prior posts and through the posts of others, what the real racial categorization of the Egyptians are.

You didn't provide a specific thread, so saying this has been dealt with is useless.

Here, lazy bones: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=59492

It doesn't matter because, even if the questions have been dealt with to your satisfaction, the debate on egypt does not come from misconceptions caused by movies about cleopatra, and the evidence is far from incontrovertible.

Actually, there is an academic consensus that the Egyptians were not black in the way we'd define them. Even the Egyptians have -written testament- to say they were not Negros.

Ok, I agree that migratory people are not always peaceful, but this has no effect on my point which was - the american indians were, as a majority, peaceful, and any ideas you have otherwise are unsupported by statistics.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/srp/ex_paper/Yarbrough_L_S_02.pdf

The American Indians fought an intense, 30 year, asymmetrical war against the United States. This does not speak of a "peaceful band of cultures" that has no knowledge of war.

http://www.answers.com/topic/indian-wars

A nice overall history. Once again, no "peaceful Indians" are to be found.

The Indians were savages and knew how to fight as such. The white man was civilized and knew how to fight as such. The resulting confrontation was a brutal clash of both styles of fighting, which resulted in massacres and blood on both sides.

First of all we didn't "give" anything. We sold them that stuff at the expense of their homeland. Couldn't we "give" them medical care in return for their beaver pelts or whatever, instead of killing them and displacing them? That would be responsible use of power.

Not really, no. Not when they were perfectly willing to engage in warfare back. Moreover, we bought land from them routinely.

How about a fifty/fifty deal - you provide the land and workers, we provide the technology and the sales and we split the profits, plus whitey gets ten percent off the top for administration. That would have been a MILLION times better.

Not really. The deal is too tenuous. Moreover, nations conquer eachother. That is the way of the world.

Ask yourself whether the quality of life has improved for american indians as a group. At best you could say it has changed, and it is quite possibly worse - add in all the dead indians' experience of life and you can easily say it is overall a negative.

Has life for American Indians improved? do they use cars, electricity, modern medical care, the internet...? Do they not get stinking rich off modern casinos?

Yes? Then yes. Of course.

Your idea of improving a land is to make it more useful to the whites who now run it. Medical care is a necessity in large towns which only existed after the whites invaded. The whites put in electricity for themselves and their workers, NOT for the people.

Yes, people tend to make things to benefit themselves. Your point? The American Indians also benefitted from this. You know, considering they live where they can get such things.

All in all, at best you can say that whites have “spread change”, and at worst call it “evil”, never could you seriously call it “spreading the love”.

The only evil, is again, living as animals and wasting resources. That is what savage peoples do. Much of the world is wasted due to the inferiority of the cultures which inhabit it, as they cannot take advantage of what they otherwise could.

Affirmative Action isn't racist. It was put in place to take power away from the racists that saturated the system. Example.

Despite higher levels of education, Asian Americans earn less than whites with comparable educational levels and occupy lower management positions in businesses.

http://www.answers.com/topic/asian-american

This is why we need Affirmative Action. Asians are cleary Discriminated against. And the numbers prove my point. Here's more proof.

On average, a white man with a college diploma earned about $65,000 in 2001. Similarly educated white women made about 40 percent less, while black and Hispanic men earned 30 percent less, according to Census Bureau estimates being released Friday.

Almost half of Asian residents 25 and older have graduated from college, nearly twice the rate of whites. Still, Asians earned about 8 percent less than whites.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Mar/24/bz/bz01a.html

It's clear, that White people get paid more because of color, the numbers don't lie. Eventhough Asians have more education, Whites with less education are paid more. More evidence that Affirmative Action is needed.

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Black job applicants without criminal records are equally likely to be hired as their white counterparts who have served time in prison, according to a recent Princeton University study.

Conducted in 2004, the study, "Discrimination in Low Wage Labor Markets," examined almost 1,500 employers in New York City for their hiring of white, Hispanic and black job applicants.

The authors of the study, Devah Pager and Bruce Western, who teach sociology at Princeton, sent 13 young men with matching, fictitious resumes and educational backgrounds to apply for entry-level jobs in the restaurant, manufacturing and financial services industries.

Using the number of jobs offers and interview invitations, Pager and Western discovered that black applicants had fewer positive responses than a white ex-criminal offender

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/17/news/economy/hiring_bias/index.htm?section=money_latest

Here' more proof, White Crimminals are prefferd over Black non-crimminals. This is fucking insane. How can you all sit here say the system is fair, and it's not biased against minorites? GTFO

Cole Grey:



Um, then why can't you name a single accomplishment from Latinos or Orientals?

Also, where they in the government? In authors of profound importance? In military commanders?

Also, do note that the Irish and Italians are white as anything. White does not mean WASP. White means Indo-European, specifically, European. However, the Irish and Italians haven't done incredibly for America, either. In terms of specific contributions.



They are the foundation of any society?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:National_Geographic_-_King_Tut_face.jpg

The modern conception of what King Tut looks like. Moreover, there is nothing whatsoever about his sacrophagus that gives him an "East African" look.

Again, this is discussed elsewhere in detail. If you want to go there, do so. I'd be happy to show you, in my prior posts and through the posts of others, what the real racial categorization of the Egyptians are.



Here, lazy bones: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=59492



Actually, there is an academic consensus that the Egyptians were not black in the way we'd define them. Even the Egyptians have -written testament- to say they were not Negros.



http://www.carlisle.army.mil/srp/ex_paper/Yarbrough_L_S_02.pdf

The American Indians fought an intense, 30 year, asymmetrical war against the United States. This does not speak of a "peaceful band of cultures" that has no knowledge of war.

http://www.answers.com/topic/indian-wars

A nice overall history. Once again, no "peaceful Indians" are to be found.

The Indians were savages and knew how to fight as such. The white man was civilized and knew how to fight as such. The resulting confrontation was a brutal clash of both styles of fighting, which resulted in massacres and blood on both sides.



Not really, no. Not when they were perfectly willing to engage in warfare back. Moreover, we bought land from them routinely.



Not really. The deal is too tenuous. Moreover, nations conquer eachother. That is the way of the world.



Has life for American Indians improved? do they use cars, electricity, modern medical care, the internet...? Do they not get stinking rich off modern casinos?

Yes? Then yes. Of course.



Yes, people tend to make things to benefit themselves. Your point? The American Indians also benefitted from this. You know, considering they live where they can get such things.



The only evil, is again, living as animals and wasting resources. That is what savage peoples do. Much of the world is wasted due to the inferiority of the cultures which inhabit it, as they cannot take advantage of what they otherwise could.


How can anyone debate this twisted racist! Replying to you is nauseating.

Um, then why can't you name a single accomplishment from Latinos or Orientals? Also, where they in the government? In authors of profound importance? In military commanders? Also, do note that the Irish and Italians are white as anything. White does not mean WASP. White means Indo-European, specifically, European. However, the Irish and Italians haven't done incredibly for America, either. In terms of specific contributions.
Marginalized people have a hard time being the foundation of a society, but in america the cultural landscape is quite diverse THANKS to minority involvement. I didn't say the irish weren't white, just that they were minorities. Now you're going to say that the irish are inferior too, or the italians? Ever heard of Finnegan's wake? How about the renaissance?
They are the foundation of any society?
I don't mean so what, big deal - I mean so what, wouldn't you expect the majority, i.e., those with the most resources and opportunity, to provide the most advancement? You become the official master of the obvious if you bring that statement out, and master of the ridiculous if you try to use that as proof of something about the people.

Again, this is discussed elsewhere in detail. If you want to go there, do so. I'd be happy to show you, in my prior posts and through the posts of others, what the real racial categorization of the Egyptians are.
Here, lazy bones: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=59492
It isn't lazy to expect a citation - why should I have to dig around to find a thread you can look up in seconds by checking your recent posts? You were the lazy one there. Don't sass me.
And you hardly, "dealt with" anything in that thread.
The reality is that the "red" description the egyptians gave themselves could fit into what we would say was, "black" now. Light skinned people from africa, who exhibit some negroid physical characteristics, and who move to america are put into the "black" category. Of course they aren't as black as som people , but what does that even mean? They sure the hell aren't white.
Actually, there is an academic consensus that the Egyptians were not black in the way we'd define them.
You don't know what you would say if one walked into your neghborhood - you might think they were "black".
One way I could define "black" - emerging from africa and having some negroid physical characteristics. Sounds exactly like an egyptian.


Moving on -
from your first link -
"Until 1861 the Plains people had been relatively peaceful, but the advance of white settlers, with their wanton slaughter of the buffalo herds on which the Native Americans depended for their livelihood, led to the first of the numerous outbreaks in the West. "
In other words, whitey brought the devil out of them with their assault. Don't blame them for fighting back.
A nice overall history. Once again, no "peaceful Indians" are to be found.
Once again????? The FIRST link clearly states that the indian warriors who fought the whites were from mainly peaceful people.
Also, how do you find the peaceful tribes who quietly acquiesced to invasion in the list of the tribes who fought back?
That makes ZERO sense.
Moreover, we bought land from them routinely.
and when we bought it, even if it was taking advantage of the situation in many cases, THAT was AT LEAST civilized behavior.
Not really. The deal is too tenuous. Moreover, nations conquer eachother. That is the way of the world.
People rape and kill children, that is the "way of the world", but that doesn't make it responsible behavior.
Has life for American Indians improved?
Maybe it is worse. Does the life of the african people improve when they get to use electric lights to work as slave labor? I would say no.
The only evil, is again, living as animals and wasting resources. That is what savage peoples do. Much of the world is wasted due to the inferiority of the cultures which inhabit it, as they cannot take advantage of what they otherwise could.
So you agree with me saying that your idea of helping the world is to make the land more accessible to exploitation by the powerful. How very responsible and moral of you.

technology creates its own culture
one that is shared by all
irrespective of individual roots

culture will become more monolithic and less diverse
the trend is easily apparent

so
barbarians!

whats on the agenda today?
learn how to dance the jig?
an outing to the medival times fair?
stop taking baths?
snigger about the land grab from the apelike abos?

or my favourite

basking in these "glories" while claiming the achivements of others as my own

needy little losers

/sneer

immigrants!

you come here, babbling in strange tongues, strange and funky odors tailing you, perhaps even despising your new home. you cling to the old ways

i look in indulgence
and excitement
without fear

because

your kids are mine

technology creates its own culture
one that is shared by all
irrespective of individual roots

This reminds me something Rabindranath Tagore once said:

Whatever we understand and enjoy in human products instantly becomes ours, wherever they might have their origin.

This reminds me something Rabindranath Tagore once said: Whatever we understand and enjoy in human products instantly becomes ours, wherever they might have their origin.

Oh, the manufactured products, of course. But that doesn't mean that we have to like the people who manufacture those products! Big difference, don't ya' think?

Baron Max

Oh, the manufactured products, of course. But that doesn't mean that we have to like the people who manufacture those products! Big difference, don't ya' think?

Baron Max

No but it does mean that people have a lot more in common than they think.

(and products includes poetry, literature, ideas)

No but it does mean that people have a lot more in common than they think.

Well, Sam, all ya' gotta' do is look around the world and you'll see that what you're saying just ain't nearly as true as you'd like to believe. Can you name any place in the world where there is no conflict or turmoil going on right now?

Baron Max

culture will become more monolithic and less diverse
the trend is easily apparent

stupid fuck
i could easily argue the opposite

Can you name any place in the world where there is no conflict or turmoil going on right now?

Baron Max

either ill read or just a masochist

Well, Sam, all ya' gotta' do is look around the world and you'll see that what you're saying just ain't nearly as true as you'd like to believe.

Baron Max

Thats merely fear and ignorance. People are generally more at the mercy of their base emotions than their higher motivations. But that's not irreversible. All it takes is understanding and the willingness to communicate.

Thats merely fear and ignorance. People are generally more at the mercy of their base emotions than their higher motivations. But that's not irreversible. All it takes is understanding and the willingness to communicate.
Information is not enough to transform all human situations. Knowing we are more responsible than apes does not make us act is af we are.
Some level, or percentage, of enlightened empowerment is necessary. Where do we find that?

Thats merely fear and ignorance. People are generally more at the mercy of their base emotions than their higher motivations. But that's not irreversible. All it takes is understanding and the willingness to communicate.

Well, humans have had a few million years to try that "understanding and willingness", but they haven't accomplished it yet. When do you suppose humans will get around to it? ...a few million more years?

Sam, humans are the way they are, and making silly little statements like that do nothing but ignore the reality of human interactions. If you want humans to do something, they have to be forced into it, and you know that full well ........you and others just don't like to accept it, you prefer your cute little sayings and slogans.

Baron Max

Well, humans have had a few million years to try that "understanding and willingness", but they haven't accomplished it yet. When do you suppose humans will get around to it? ...a few million more years?

Sam, humans are the way they are, and making silly little statements like that do nothing but ignore the reality of human interactions. If you want humans to do something, they have to be forced into it, and you know that full well ........you and others just don't like to accept it, you prefer your cute little sayings and slogans.

Baron Max

Like I said, fear and ignorance. It usually succeeds not so much because more people are fearful or ignorant, but because the majority are apathetic and couldn't care less and the ones who can bring about change have a lot to lose in terms of financial gain or power. Basically apathetic people and irresponsible leadership. Its the same story the world over.

Like I said, fear and ignorance. It usually succeeds not so much because more people are fearful or ignorant, but because the majority are apathetic and couldn't care less and the ones who can bring about change have a lot to lose in terms of financial gain or power. Basically apathetic people and irresponsible leadership. Its the same story the world over.

And yet you continue to spew forth your ridiculous ideas and slogans of/about human compassion and love and understanding? ...even while you know damned well it's just a bunch of bullshit that will never ever happen?

There's a term for that kind of attitude, ain't there?

Baron Max

And yet you continue to spew forth your ridiculous ideas and slogans of/about human compassion and love and understanding? ...even while you know damned well it's just a bunch of bullshit that will never ever happen?

There's a term for that kind of attitude, ain't there?

Baron Max

Yes, its called persistence.

Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan “Press On” has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race - Calvin Coolidge.

THIS ISN'T SOLEY DIRECTED TOWARDS YOU PRINCE JAMES

Prince James: Um, then why can't you name a single accomplishment from Latinos or Orientals? Also, where they in the government? In authors of profound importance? In military commanders?... It's not my fault that there is a poverty of black cultural achievement in America aside from Carver, Douglass, and King. Maybe a Hughes and Louis Armstrong.
In fact: There really is no such thing as "black history". The achievement of blacks in America have been mostly peripheral. There has been no equivalent, as it were, to a black George Washington.

True there is no black equivalent to a George Washington in the U.S but don't you think that's a bad example?

I made a search of famous asian-american authors and of couse came up with Amy Tan. Maya Lin is the architect who designed the vietnam vet memorial in Washington. Jerry Yang created the Yahoo directory.

As for hispanic americans:

Luis Munoz Rivera was a famous Puerto Rican politician:

http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/congress/munozrivera.html


Famous hispanic artist: Jean-Michel Basquait
Famous hispanic authors: Isabell Allende (she's Chiliean so maybe it doesn't count). Reverend Fr. Fray Angélico Chávez (poet, historian), Julia Alvarez

And then there is David Farragut who was a senior officer in the U.S Navy and an American Civil war hero.

As far as African-americans authors go there is James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Langston Hughes, Zora Neal Hurston (1891 –1960 author and anthropologist who studied at Barnard under Franz Boaz) just to name a few

Politicians/activists: Ralph Bunche 1904-1971 (nobel peace prize), Malcolm X, Angela Davis, Fredrick Douglas

Entertainer/athlete: Paul Robeson, Muhammed Ali, Scott Joplin, Josephine Baker (On her funeral procession, 20,000 people gathered on the streets of Paris to pay respects. Baker was the first American woman buried in France with military honors. She spied for the resistance during WW2)


Scientists: Dr. Charles Drew (Charles Drew (1904-1950) was born on June 3, 1904 in Washington, D.C. Charles Drew excelled in academics and sports during his graduate studies at Amherst College in Massachusetts. Charles Drew was also a honor student at McGill University Medical School in Montreal, where he specialized in physiological anatomy. Charles Drew researched blood plasma and transfusions in New York City. It was during his work at Columbia University where he made his discoveries relating to the preservation of blood. By separating the liquid red blood cells from the near solid plasma and freezing the two separately, he found that blood could be preserved and reconstituted at a later date. Charles Drew's system for the storing of blood plasma (blood bank) revolutionized the medical profession. Dr. Drew also established the American Red Cross blood bank, of which he was the first director, and he organized the world's first blood bank drive, nicknamed "Blood for Britain". His official title for the blood drive was Medical Director of the first Plasma Division for Blood Transfusion, supplying blood plasma to the British during World War II. The British military used his process extensively during World War II, establishing mobile blood banks to aid in the treatment of wounded soldiers at the front lines. In 1941, the American Red Cross decided to set up blood donor stations to collect plasma for the U.S. armed forces.

Elijah J. McCoy: The son of former slaves from Kentucky who had escaped via the Underground Railroad to Canada, at 15 years of age Elijah McCoy traveled to Scotland seeking the educational opportunities from which blacks were excluded in the Americas. He trained in mechanical engineering and then moved to the United States, where he was denied engineering employment-again because he was of African descent. He instead took a job as a railroad fireman. At that time, locomotives needed to be shut down periodically to be lubricated to avoid overheating. The frequent stops prevented railroads from being profitable until McCoy developed the “lubricating cup” for steam engines, which kept locomotives constantly lubricated, preventing frequent stops and overheating. He patented the lubricating cup in 1872. It represented the most profitable of his more than 58 patents, which included a folding ironing board and an automatic sprinkler.

Granville Woods: Woods, along with his brother Lyates, formed the Woods Railway Telegraph Company in 1884. The company manufactured and sold telephone, telegraph and electrical equipment. One of the early inventions from the company was an improved steam boiler furnace and this was followed up by an improved telephone transmitter which had superior clarity of sound and could provide for longer range of distance for transmission.
In 1885, Woods patented a apparatus which was a combination of a telephone and a telegraph. The device, which he called "telegraphony," would allow a telegraph station to send voice and telegraph messages over a single wire. The device was so successful that he later sold it to the American Bell Telephone Company. Woods developed his most important invention - a device he called Synchronous Multiplex Railway Telegraph. A variation of the "induction telegraph," it allowed for messages to be sent from moving trains and railway stations. By allowing dispatchers to know the location of each train, it provided for greater safety and a decrease in railway accidents

First black female millioner: Madame C. J. Walker (1867-1919)

And let's not forget the lawyer, poet and author of 'The Star Spangled Banner' Francis Scott Key.

Now you see none of these people were hovering on the margin they were 'in the game'. If americans don't have an inclusive sense of their own history and diversity then its simply a show of a deepening ahistoricism. Its a sign of how lacking the historical education is in the States. Notice everyone wants to slam Prince James because he is either unaware, ignorant of or plain ole indifferent to the accomplishments of people from other ethnicities but it seems even the 'liberals' here haven't a clue. Instead the liberals seem to make excuses for why these groups haven't made a mark when they all clearly have even before there were voting rights, desegregation or a civil rights movement. If the liberals can only offer their pity, excuses and apologies then the 'marginalized' are probably better off left alone to their own devises. Seems to me they were doing all right even when the odds and the law were against them.

Oh yea and James have you ever seen a Somalian, Eritrean or Ethiopian? They all look like 'king tut'.

Call me crazy but I think these groups can stand on their own feet without outside assistance save the law which covers all. No affirmative action is needed, no freebies, no gifts, nor helping hands. All aid has created are attitudes of dependency and doubts as to whether a black or asian can get ahead through their own strength and determination. So I say lets bring on the Indo-European heritage club, let the Asians-Americans have theirs, the Afro-Americans and any other hyphenated group. Sewing a thread through each might even lead us to a clearer perspective on the whole of American history.

And yet you continue to spew forth your ridiculous ideas and slogans of/about human compassion and love and understanding? ...even while you know damned well it's just a bunch of bullshit that will never ever happen?
There's a term for that kind of attitude, ain't there?

Hope.
I'm a skeptic, but hope for the best.
There is a term for your attitude too - fatalism.

Information is not enough to transform all human situations. Knowing we are more responsible than apes does not make us act is af we are.
Some level, or percentage, of enlightened empowerment is necessary. Where do we find that?

I believe thats where the willingness to communicate comes in. For that, effective leadership is required. Is there any other way? I could not say.

Hope. I'm a skeptic, but hope for the best.

Hmm? I don't know, I call that something like dreaming or worse, faith without any substantiating evidence.

There is a term for your attitude too - fatalism.

Nope, realism. And all ya' gotta' do is take a look around at the world and realize that humans have been doing about, more or less, the same for over 200,000 years, and right up to the present. How can that past record give you any hope for anything different in the future?

Baron Max

I believe thats where the willingness to communicate comes in. For that, effective leadership is required.

Ahh, yes, Sam ...for once you and I agree, I think. Leadership ....someone who's strong and powerful enough to make/force the rest of the humans to communicate (and to do it nicely!). Yep, a good, soli