Why are we all so convinced of our own opinions to a point that we have difficulty understanding other people? :D



(Great place to ask that quesion....
:roflmao: )

I guess I should explain a litte bit more...

Do we see the value in letting go of our erroneous perceptions and improve out knowledge? Or do we find more valuable to hold to our opinions? And why would we feel that way? Are we just too lazy to evolve?

(Btw, I'm talking about changing opinons upon clear evidence that our opinions are not correct...)

I'm not so convinced about my own opinions that I am deaf to others with substantial reinforcement. Look at my post history for examples if need be. One such case is a thread I made where I pondered if Earth was once just a rock covered in ice, which led to the birth of bacteria and ultimately life as we know it. I now believe that assumption to be incorrect.

There are people that fit the description you put forth. Usually involving politics or religion, the most common subjects of morality and belief, or strong opinions.

Why are we all so convinced of our own opinions to a point that we have difficulty understanding other people? :D



(Great place to ask that quesion....
:roflmao: )

no you do.

aahah ahah ha/

I'm not so convinced about my own opinions that I am deaf to others with substantial reinforcement.
You're not the rule in sciforums... LOL! :D

There are people that fit the description you put forth. Usually involving politics or religion, the most common subjects of morality and belief, or strong opinions.
Indeed....

no you do.

aahah ahah ha/
So much that I started this discussion? :D

Why are we all so convinced of our own opinions to a point that we have difficulty understanding other people? :D

Because many people live/work/are educated in enviroments where they are never exposed to an opinion different from their own. Thus, they can not concieve of such an idea being correct. All opposing views are proof of either idiotcy or corruption (ie being under the influence of Haliburton).

Their's a name for these people. They're called fanatics. Our Left wing universities produce them in droves. As do some of our talkshows.

Because many people live/work/are educated in enviroments where they are never exposed to an opinion different from their own. Thus, they can not concieve of such an idea being correct. All opposing views are proof of either idiotcy or corruption (ie being under the influence of Haliburton).
LOL! Very true.... :p

Their's a name for these people. They're called fanatics. Our Left wing universities produce them in droves. As do some of our talkshows.
LOL! Thank you for proving your point.... :D

Their's a name for these people. They're called fanatics. Our Left wing universities produce them in droves. As do some of our talkshows.
Talkshows 'produce' fanatics? Is there a rash of secret talkshow fanatic training-camps out there somewhere?

But anyway: is anything ever likely to convince you of the essential wrongness of this opinion? Anything? Ever? Go on: think.

But anyway again: we hold onto our religious and political opinions because, if we changed them substantially, we'd be losing something we cherish dearly. That thing being... us.

if someone can make an argument which proves me wrong then i will admit to it, but most of the time opinions are just that, there is no factual basis to a lot of them, and they will just go back and forth with no victory for anyone.

Most people are lacking analytical abilities, without which they allow emotions to control their belief system.

if someone can make an argument which proves me wrong then i will admit to it, but most of the time opinions are just that, there is no factual basis to a lot of them, and they will just go back and forth with no victory for anyone.

Oh I can make an argument to prove someone wrong......and declare victory... lol

I do not get into arugments about things I know nothing about. On a more personal level, I have very strong feelings and opinions on some things, and I just can't be swayed. On those things I tend to spread my opinions and think that they should think the same way I do on them...sometimes they sway to my side some times not.....:bawl:

*Best Dr PHAL voice*
:itold:
"See here, what we got is a "right fighter" someone whom is always right. Actually we got here a whole forum of right fighters."

*Best Dr PHAL voice*
:itold:
"See here, what we got is a "right fighter" someone whom is always right. Actually we got here a whole forum of right fighters."

ME RIGHT YOU WRONG :argue:

What bothers me the most about "opinions" is .....why do we bother forming opinions when it almost never makes any difference to anything in our lives?

And then, even if we've formed those opinions, why we feel compelled to tell everyone else about them?

And then, even worse, why we feel compelled to defend those opinions when questioned by others?

Think about it .....Why should we even form opinions on matters, issues, that have no direct effect on our lives? I mean, if Ethiopians want to murder a gazillion other Ethiopians, who cares and why should they care? ..well, other than the Ethiopians being murdered, of course!

Baron Max

What bothers me the most about "opinions" is .....why do we bother forming opinions when it almost never makes any difference to anything in our lives?

And then, even if we've formed those opinions, why we feel compelled to tell everyone else about them?

And then, even worse, why we feel compelled to defend those opinions when questioned by others?

Think about it .....Why should we even form opinions on matters, issues, that have no direct effect on our lives? I mean, if Ethiopians want to murder a gazillion other Ethiopians, who cares and why should they care? ..well, other than the Ethiopians being murdered, of course!

Baron Max

Well for instance you wanted opinions on if you should tell those parents you are peeping tom oops max.

What does it matter what we think? and did you really like what some ppl had to say about it?
Out of curiousity I like to find out what a # of ppl think on a topic, then I see how close or far off my own are in comparison.

Well for instance you wanted opinions on if you should tell those parents you are peeping tom oops max.

But in that case, I didn't state my opinion ...I asked for it. Don't you see the difference????

And if you hadn't responded at all, I could easily understand that you didn't give a fuck one way or the other.

But ...why should we form opinions in the first place? Especially on issues that have no bearing on our lives.

Baron Max

But ...why should we form opinions in the first place? Especially on issues that have no bearing on our lives.
Why not?

Why not?

Because it's one more thing that divides people when there's no reason to do so. Opinions cause conflicts ...in almost every case. So if it's not necessary to be so divided, why do it?

Baron Max

Because it's one more thing that divides people when there's no reason to do so. Opinions cause conflicts ...in almost every case. So if it's not necessary to be so divided, why do it?
What if the effect on us is disputed?

What bothers me the most about "opinions" is .....why do we bother forming opinions when it almost never makes any difference to anything in our lives?

And then, even if we've formed those opinions, why we feel compelled to tell everyone else about them?

And then, even worse, why we feel compelled to defend those opinions when questioned by others?

Think about it .....Why should we even form opinions on matters, issues, that have no direct effect on our lives? I mean, if Ethiopians want to murder a gazillion other Ethiopians, who cares and why should they care? ..well, other than the Ethiopians being murdered, of course!

Baron Max
You're WRONG! :p

But maybe it DOES make a difference in our lives. If it doesn't, why would we bother. There must be some motivation to do this.

Benefits are not always so clear. Sometimes it's just a pscychological thing...

Because it's one more thing that divides people when there's no reason to do so. Opinions cause conflicts ...in almost every case. So if it's not necessary to be so divided, why do it?

Baron Max
True. But, for instance, I hold opinions regarding the path to world peace. For instance, I believe that world peace can only happen if we are all united for a same purpose. We would also have to respect our differences. And we would have to think at an species level as supposed to a nationalist level...

Meanwhile, you don't believe world peace is even possible! LOL! :D

True. But, for instance, I hold opinions regarding the path to world peace.

I know you do, and I think that's fine. But why must you continually tell us or others about it? See? I don't mean you shouldn't HAVE those opinions, but why tell people about them ....and cause disagreements and conflicts and wars and ...worse?

For instance, I believe that world peace can only happen if we are all united for a same purpose.

Which can never happen! And what's funny, strange, is that you know that, you know that all people will never agree on a fuckin' think, yet you continue to make that statement. Why? Just to cause divisiveness and conflict?

We would also have to respect our differences. ...

But if I respect someone's opinion on abortion rights, and hold a different view, how can we ever settle the legal issues facing the nation? One of us has to give up on their opinions! And see, it's like that with almost every issue that I can think of .....and you can't see that. Why?

Meanwhile, you don't believe world peace is even possible! LOL! :D

hundreds of gazillions of years of human endeavor have proven me correct, and more to the point, have proven that you can't see human history for what it's been for those hundreds of gazillions of years. You just throw all that out with a simplistic statement of ....love and peace and agreement.

Oh, geez!

Baron Max

thats your opinion baron

peace.

thats your opinion baron.

No, mostly it was me asking him questions about his beliefs and dreams.

Baron Max

Talkshows 'produce' fanatics? Is there a rash of secret talkshow fanatic training-camps out there somewhere?I enjoy right wing talk shows. I'm a right wing kind of guy. But they are not my only source of information.

The problem is the tendency to portray your opponents as idiots who are always wrong. As I said, we get this from leftist professors and rightwing talkshow hosts.

If your only source of information on feminists is Rush's depiction of "Feminazi's", you're not going to have a realistic view of them. By the same token, if your idea of Fundamentalist Christians is based on what you heard from your professor (racist, sexist, homophobes, anti-science, bigots), you will not have a reasonable view of them either.

That's what makes you a fanatic. Dismissing anything the other side says out of hand. Not being open to argument. Consider the position of many enviromentalists on those who question global warming science. They label them "global warming deniers", as though a scientific disagreement is the equivalent of denying the genocide in WW2.

We need to be open to discussion and not demonize our oponents. Nothing is gained by name calling and ad homs.

If your only source of information on feminists is Rush's depiction of "Feminazi's", you're not going to have a realistic view of them. By the same token, if your idea of Fundamentalist Christians is based on what you heard from your professor (racist, sexist, homophobes, anti-science, bigots), you will not have a reasonable view of them either.

Isn't racist sexist anti-science bigot homophobe the definition of a fundie? Or is that an act they put on?
When was the last time you did science? Were in college?

Isn't racist sexist anti-science bigot homophobe the definition of a fundie? Or is that an act they put on?
When was the last time you did science? Were in college?
Every day. I'm a doctor. I must assess patients, determine proper treatment. Evaluate new treatments. Order lab work. Keep up with the latest research in the journals, etc. I've also worked as a chemist and an enviromental scientist (in between undergrad and Optometry School).

PS Thanks for making my point.

Every day. I'm a doctor. I must assess patients, determine proper treatment. Evaluate new treatments. Order lab work. Keep up with the latest research in the journals, etc. I've also worked as a chemist and an enviromental scientist (in between undergrad and Optometry School).

PS Thanks for making my point.

I know you're a doctor; that's why I asked when the last time you did science was.

You do understand that fundamentalists, as per the definition of Fundamentalist, are anti-science, bigot, homophobes?
Let's look at the core beliefs of fundamentalist christianity (I won't use Islam, because we both know they're fucking nuts):
1. the inerrancy of the Bible,
2. Sola Scriptura,
3. the virgin birth of Christ,
4. the doctrine of substitutionary atonement,
5. the bodily resurrection of Jesus,
6. and the imminent return of Jesus Christ.

I don't really need to go through here and point out where this leads to "racist, sexist, homophobes, anti-science, bigots" do I? I don't need to point to our friendly member, Sandy, or the dearly departed IceAgeCivilizations, or link to Falwell's website, or point you to Leviticus, or show you pictures of fire bombed abortion clinics, right?

...and point out where this leads to "racist, sexist, homophobes, anti-science, bigots" do I?

Hmm, just using that phrase is a sure sign of bigorty, ain't it?

Baron Max

Hi all,

i hope all is going well.

This topic is quite interesting and i ithought i could interject the following from our dear Baron Von Maximus as it is quite relevant and i have not responded to it as yet,

But do you go around telling others how to play, or what the proper plays might be in certain sitautions, and pawn yourself off as an expert on soccer?

See? I doubt that you do that, yet people here do it all the fuckin' time. And the "talking heads" on the news programs do the same thing. Everyone seems to want to make other believe that they're experts on a subject, or that they know it all. That ain't nice, is it?

Baron Max

Well you see MAximus, of course i am not going to tell Steven Gerrard ( do you know him??) or Adriano or some guy who plays in the conference how to play football and what moves he should make, but i can give my opinion to my mate down the pub on who should play for england etc..

Like for example as MAdAnt is a doctor, i will obviously not question his judgement on a medical issue against that of someone who is not a Doctor.

~~~~~~~~

take it ez
zak

..., but i can give my opinion to my mate down the pub on who should play for england etc..

But why should you, Zak? And that's really the bigger question, and the one I've been trying to make. Why, WHY, do we have to tell others of our opinions .....which invariably causes conflict and disagreement?

Why do we feel that we have to tell others of our opinions? Are we trying to make them think that we know more than we do about some topic/issue? Are we trying to show others that we know more than they do? Are we trying to force a disagreement? An argument?

Baron Max

But why should you, Zak? And that's really the bigger question, and the one I've been trying to make. Why, WHY, do we have to tell others of our opinions .....which invariably causes conflict and disagreement?

Why do we feel that we have to tell others of our opinions? Are we trying to make them think that we know more than we do about some topic/issue? Are we trying to show others that we know more than they do? Are we trying to force a disagreement? An argument?

Baron Max

Well Mr Maximus,

Sometimes you get asked.

other times you are just talking rather than being in silence. What do you want peope to talk about???

Unless you dont want people top talk ata ll maixmus.


why!?! what do you talk to your mates at the pub about????
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Take it ez
zak

Well Mr Maximus, Sometimes you get asked.
other times you are just talking rather than being in silence. What do you want peope to talk about???

And so because you don't want to be silent, you're willing to cause conflict, disagreement? And possibly anger, hatred, violence, war, death and destruction??

Baron Max

I know you do, and I think that's fine. But why must you continually tell us or others about it? See? I don't mean you shouldn't HAVE those opinions, but why tell people about them ....and cause disagreements and conflicts and wars and ...worse?
Because you cannot have world peace if you keep that to yourself.

Which can never happen! And what's funny, strange, is that you know that, you know that all people will never agree on a fuckin' think, yet you continue to make that statement. Why? Just to cause divisiveness and conflict?
I'm not saying agreeing on everything.


But if I respect someone's opinion on abortion rights, and hold a different view, how can we ever settle the legal issues facing the nation?
Maybe you don't need to do that. Maybe it should be up to each one of us.

One of us has to give up on their opinions! And see, it's like that with almost every issue that I can think of .....and you can't see that. Why?
Conflict Management is the key.

hundreds of gazillions of years of human endeavor have proven me correct, and more to the point, have proven that you can't see human history for what it's been for those hundreds of gazillions of years. You just throw all that out with a simplistic statement of ....love and peace and agreement.

Oh, geez!

Baron Max
It's a fallacy to believe that the recurrence of something excludes the possibility of other scenarios.

We need to be open to discussion and not demonize our oponents. Nothing is gained by name calling and ad homs.
That's constructive conflict...

.

...LOL! Your post wasn't even worth responding to, TS.

Baron Max

Baron,

Ever heard of such things such as constructive criticism and conflict?

What is the problem with having conflict? It's impossible to not have conflict. However, it is possible to manage it in a constructive way by, for instance, not mixing emotions with the discussion. The scientific method could also be helpful when attempting to resolve a conflict.

Regarding our history, I would say that we are doing quite fine nowdays, compared to thousands of years ago. Altough in a large scale we are not, you can look at the small scale. For example, compare Canada with the dark ages. Also, we have much less slavery then we used to. Maybe we are making some progress?

Baron, Ever heard of such things such as constructive criticism and conflict?

Yeah, I heard of it .....and it was what started World War I and World War II, not to mention each and every war that's ever been fought on the planet!

And you want to continue such behavior??!! Oh, I see.

Baron Max

''You're only as young as the last time you changed your mind.'' - Timothy Leary.

Yeah, I heard of it .....and it was what started World War I and World War II, not to mention each and every war that's ever been fought on the planet!

And you want to continue such behavior??!! Oh, I see.

Baron Max

Please substantiate this claim.

And Baron youre winding your-self into increasingly ridiculous tautological-nots by arguing against arguing.

And Baron youre winding your-self into increasingly ridiculous tautological-nots by arguing against arguing.

If you read my posts, I think you'll see that most of my comments have been questioning the comments of others. I'm not "arguing" or even "disagreeing", I'm trying to discover their ideas.

Baron Max

Please substantiate this claim.

Well, that's pretty easy, ain't it? If everyone in history agreed with everyone else about everything, why would anyone fight a war? :D

Baron Max

Well, that's pretty easy, ain't it? If everyone in history agreed with everyone else about everything, why would anyone fight a war? :D

Baron Max

Do you believe wars are fought over a difference of opinion?

Yeah, I heard of it .....and it was what started World War I and World War II, not to mention each and every war that's ever been fought on the planet!

And you want to continue such behavior??!! Oh, I see.

Baron Max
Not really.

Do you believe wars are fought over a difference of opinion?

A difference of opinion is the beginning ...which leads to arguments ...which leads to major conflicts ...which leads to war.

Yes, Sam, I do.

Baron Max

Not really.

Then why is almost every post that you make somewhat controversial or confrontational? If you love peace so much, why are you so confrontational?

Baron Max

Well, that's pretty easy, ain't it? If everyone in history agreed with everyone else about everything, why would anyone fight a war? :D

Baron Max
*sigh... geez....

No. The World Wars weren't started because of CONSTRUCTIVE conflict, although there WAS conflict. My point is that wars can be avoided through CONSUTRUCTIVE conflict. I suppose you just pretended you didn't see the word CONSTRUCTIVE... :rolleyes:

No. The World Wars weren't started because of CONSTRUCTIVE conflict, although there WAS conflict. My point is that wars can be avoided through CONSUTRUCTIVE conflict. I suppose you just pretended you didn't see the word CONSTRUCTIVE... :rolleyes:

You see it as "constructive", others see it as you telling them what to do and how to do it.

Baron Max

That's not constructive conflict management. I suggest you do a little research before posting on a subject you don't understand...

That's not constructive conflict management.

Yeah, sure ....taught by whom? The person with whom you're trying to "correct", or by your own people?

People just don't see eye-to-eye on things, TS, and you should learn a little bit about that. But I've been telling you that since I came here, but you haven't change a bit ...in fact, you're actually MORE confrontational now than before.

And you call yourself an advocate of peace???????????

Baron Max

Yeah, sure ....taught by whom? The person with whom you're trying to "correct", or by your own people?

People just don't see eye-to-eye on things, TS, and you should learn a little bit about that. But I've been telling you that since I came here, but you haven't change a bit ...in fact, you're actually MORE confrontational now than before.

And you call yourself an advocate of peace???????????

Baron Max
An advocate of peace that does nothing is not an advoacte for peace, is it?

No. Constructive conflict is a form of conflict that does not include emotions. Both sides are willing to listen to the other's opinion, learn and grow with each other. There is no fight. It's just a "civilized" discussion.

A difference of opinion is the beginning ...which leads to arguments ...which leads to major conflicts ...which leads to war.

Yes, Sam, I do.

Baron Max

Well I don't; I think people fight for power or resources; they don't really care about opinions, especially the ones who are willing to kill many many people to gain what they want.

No. Constructive conflict is a form of conflict that does not include emotions. Both sides are willing to listen to the other's opinion, learn and grow with each other. There is no fight. It's just a "civilized" discussion.

So .....okay, just continue your foolish little dream, TS, that's okay with me as long as you're happy. Just don't talk too much to the other patients in your ward, okay? It upsets them! :D

Baron Max

Yeah, sure ....taught by whom? The person with whom you're trying to "correct", or by your own people?

People just don't see eye-to-eye on things, TS, and you should learn a little bit about that. But I've been telling you that since I came here, but you haven't change a bit ...in fact, you're actually MORE confrontational now than before.

And you call yourself an advocate of peace???????????

Baron Max

Man youre arguing and creating open conflict with people about arguing and creating conflict.
Is this some kind of post-modernist stunt, or do you just not get how logical fallacies work?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

I suggest reading that, you'll soon find why noone takes your arguments seriously. Just about every tactic you employ is in that list.

No, mostly it was me asking him questions about his beliefs and dreams.

Baron Max

thats your opinion baron.

peace.

So .....okay, just continue your foolish little dream, TS, that's okay with me as long as you're happy. Just don't talk too much to the other patients in your ward, okay? It upsets them! :D

Baron Max
So you run out of excuses and start pulling crap out of your ass?

*nods head*

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

I suggest reading that, you'll soon find why noone takes your arguments seriously. Just about every tactic you employ is in that list.

:xctd:

:roflmao:

:bravo:

I suggest reading that, you'll soon find why noone takes your arguments seriously.

That's interesting, Helio. So why do you think there's so many people who argue with me if they don't take me seriously?

Just about every tactic you employ is in that list.

Well, thanks! I studied it pretty well before I joined the sciforums, so I guess I'm doin' well, huh? :D

Baron Max

Well, thanks! I studied it pretty well before I joined the sciforums, so I guess I'm doin' well, huh? :D

Baron Max

If you read it as a 'what to do in an argument manual' then yes youve done exceptionally well, pretty much covered them all havent you?

And so because you don't want to be silent, you're willing to cause conflict, disagreement? And possibly anger, hatred, violence, war, death and destruction??

Baron Max


Good Morning Baron Van Maximus,

I hope all is well with you:D

You can have a constructive debate and disagree with someone.

It is how your opinions come across which is important and the stance in which you illuminate.

Obviously with you expert opinions on such things as the middle east and your solutions to it like, bombing iran into oblivion or your attitutude like "fuck palestinains" are very confrontational. Same goes with GWB and OBL's stances too.

~~~~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak

You can have a constructive debate and disagree with someone. It is how your opinions come across which is important and the stance in which you illuminate.

I see you agree with me. It's the problem with the other person(s) for which one has to be very, very careful. We like to think we know our friends, but that's not always the case, and a disagree can be confrontational to some of them.

President Bush has agreements to put defensive missiles in Czech and Poland to prevent Iran from getting missiles into Europe. President Putin takes that as an affront to his nation, claiming the US is going to attack Russia. So he re-targets his ballistic missiles to take out some European cities. Europe gets pissed off at the whole affair and at both the USA and Russia.

And ...it was all because of a little misunderstanding. And President Bush tried to explain the system, but Russia disagreed. Pretty soon Russia gets really pissed and shoot ICBMs into Europe and takes out Paris and Berlin. Europe gets pissed off and asks the USA to help protect them. The USA sends 437,842 ICBM nuke-tipped missiles and totally destroys Russia. Europe is happy that they're not going to be attacked by Russia, but they're pissed off at the USA because they think only 436,000 missiles would have been enough! And World War III erupts and Zak is killed.

All because of a slight misunderstanding ...which caused anger and conflict.

Baron Max

I see you agree with me. It's the problem with the other person(s) for which one has to be very, very careful. We like to think we know our friends, but that's not always the case, and a disagree can be confrontational to some of them.



Its nice to agree with the one baron Von Maximus:D


President Bush has agreements to put defensive missiles in Czech and Poland to prevent Iran from getting missiles into Europe. President Putin takes that as an affront to his nation, claiming the US is going to attack Russia. So he re-targets his ballistic missiles to take out some European cities. Europe gets pissed off at the whole affair and at both the USA and Russia.

And ...it was all because of a little misunderstanding. And President Bush tried to explain the system, but Russia disagreed. Pretty soon Russia gets really pissed and shoot ICBMs into Europe and takes out Paris and Berlin. Europe gets pissed off and asks the USA to help protect them. The USA sends 437,842 ICBM nuke-tipped missiles and totally destroys Russia. Europe is happy that they're not going to be attacked by Russia, but they're pissed off at the USA because they think only 436,000 missiles would have been enough! And World War III erupts and Zak is killed.

All because of a slight misunderstanding ...which caused anger and conflict.

Baron Max

thats not go there.... oh well maybe we can...

you know as well as i do that Iran will not now or anytime in the future Lob Missles into europe.

The entire defence shield seems a bit of a waste of money to me, as i dont know how it will stop a nut job with a nuke in his case or a nut job with a nuke on a boat or something.

But anyway thats for a different thread.

Anyway back to the thread...Unless it is over the internet, most people dont give their real opinions about anythign unless they are with real close family or friends.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak

Its nice to agree with the one baron Von Maximus.

In that case, I disagree with you! :D

you know as well as i do that Iran will not now or anytime in the future Lob Missles into europe.

So ...you know who'll be the next leaders in Iran? You know what the future holds, Zak?

Baron Max

In that case, I disagree with you! :D


Dear Maximus

The reasoning above reminds me of.... are yes thats it, the arguments i used to have when i was about 6 years old in the primary school play ground. however knowing your age maximus i would not expect you to remember that far back, its funny how a guy over 60 yrs old can still employ the same tactics.:D



So ...you know who'll be the next leaders in Iran? You know what the future holds, Zak?

Baron Max

no i dont, but what i do know is this:

1) Iran has not got nukes
2) we dont know whetehr Iran actually wants nukes
3) iran does not have the missiles to lob at Europe
4) In history no nation has used nukes against another nation which has nukes.
5) Only one Nation has used a nuke before against a nation without nukes
6) Iran has not invaded/attacked another country for at least 100 yrs

But anyway should this not be for another thread

~~~~~~
take it ez
zak