Dr.Tarig Al Swaidan discovered some verses in the Holy Qur'an that mention one thing is equal to another, i.e. men are equal to women.

Although this makes sense grammatically, the astonishing fact is that the number of times the word man appears in the Qur'an is 24 and number of times the word woman appears is also 24, therefore not only is this phrase correct in the grammatical sense but also true mathematically, i.e. 24 = 24.

Upon further analysis of various verses, he discovered that this is consistent throughout the whole Qur'an, where it says one thing is like another. See below for astonishing result of the words mentioned number of times in Arabic Qur'an: Word/ Meaning Mentioned in the Quran

Al-Dunya (This world) 115
Al-Akhira (The hereafter) 115
Al-Mala'ikah (Angles) 88
Al-Shayateen (Satan) 88
Al-Hayat (Life) 145
Al-Maout (Death) 145
Al-Rajul (Man) 24
Al-Mar'ha (Women) 24
Benefi't 50
Corrupt 50
People 50 .. Messengers 50
Eblees (king of devils) 11 . Seek refuge from Eblees 11
Museebah (calamity) 75 . Thanks 75
Spending (Sadaqah) 73 . Satisfaction 73
People who are mislead 17 . Dead people 17
Muslimeen 41 . Jihad 41
Magic 60 . Fitnah (dissuasion, misleading) 60
Zakat (Taxes Muslims pay to the poor) 32 . Barakah (Increasing or blessings of wealth) 32
Mind 49 . Noor 49
Tongue 25 . Sermon 25
Speaking publicly 18 . Publicising 18
Hardship 114 .... Patience 114

Al-Yahom (Day) mentioned 365

Al-bahar (Sea) 32
Al-bar (Land) 13

If we add up the total words of both "sea" and "land" we get 45. Now if we do a simple calculation:
32/45 X 100% = 71.11111111%
13/45 X 100% = 28.88888888%

Above is what we know today, the percentages of Water (Sea) and Land in the world. Yet another miracle in the Quran.

The Miracles of the Quran will never end. There will never be a time where mankind can fully take in the knowledge that is in this holy book. It is a miracle to all mankind, the word of God. There is no value that one can set to the words of the Creator. It is a treasure of which guides those that want to succeed in this life and the hereafter.

To read the English translation of the Noble Quran, please click here, this site is the best site on the net regarding the Noble Quran:

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/naeindex.htm

Quran......Noble?


First of all there are also Jewish groupings that claim the can
use numbers from the Tora, and make formulas to predict the
future, and confirm events that has allready happened.
If you are here to convert people then you are in the wrong
place. Your "Noble" quran is just a rip-off of the Holy Bible.

Yes, Judas, but those Jewish mystics can't even accomplish this simple miracle of correspondence.

Walk into the Louvre. Look at the paintings. Turn to the first Frenchman you see and say, "You know, my child can use colored paints to make pictures."

It's the same thing, isn't it? Two-bit Jewish-mystic hacks versus an alleged single author who happens to pull off some rather subtle correspondences?

Right, Judas. It's remotely the same thing.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Im not Jewish(not that theres anything wrong with beeing
Jewish) but i ment that all sortsa people can come up with
all kinds of propaganda non-sense:D

I just ate PORK, hmm delicious you should try it some time...

Fair 'nuff.

I just think they're separate enough ideas to note a difference.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by Judas
Quran......Noble?


First of all there are also Jewish groupings that claim the can
use numbers from the Tora, and make formulas to predict the
future, and confirm events that has allready happened.
If you are here to convert people then you are in the wrong
place. Your "Noble" quran is just a rip-off of the Holy Bible.

I dont need to comment on your nonesense.....LOL

The only astonishing figure is that the land:sea word ratio is very close to Earth's actual land:sea ratio. The rest can easily be accomplished by any talented writer with the desire and patience to do so. Numerological tricks, while a fascinating exploration of the intricacies of mathematics, really are not particularly impressive in regards to meaning or content.

Whether we're dealing with the various Bible or Shakespearean 'codes' or the statistical 'miracles' of the Quran the 'decoding' of such works is meaningless. Given that there is no set key for decoding these works a key is invented. The problem is that one might invent a key to decode a text into any other text redering any particular key meaningless. As an aside, whenever 'guessing' ratios it is never a bad idea to stick around 80:20. Any typical bell curve distribution will make it likely for you to be close to the mark.

Not that I'm saying that the Quran is not a sublime piece of literature. I don't read Arabic and have no basis for individual judgment but I respect the opinions of the experts who regard it highly. Still, seeing as that only one of the number sets discovered would have been beyond the ken of man at the time I find 'miraculous' to be a bit of a push.

~Raithere

P.S. Thanks for the link. I've read most of the Quran in bits and pieces and it'll be nice to have a solid reference.

Originally posted by Ren
I just ate PORK, hmm delicious you should try it some time...

Good for you, you should also realize that scientists discovered a possible linke between SARS and PIGS:

http://www.sarsandpigs.blogspot.com/

http://www.hhv6.freeservers.com/PigsandSARS.htm

The more I read scinece, the more Muslim I become, this great Book, the noble quran is amazing scientific miracle.

http://www.it-is-truth.org

Originally posted by Raithere
The only astonishing figure is that the land:sea word ratio is very close to Earth's actual land:sea ratio. The rest can easily be accomplished by any talented writer with the desire and patience to do so.

Raithere,
I had the same feeling about the Quran, but the question in mind that still couldn't be answered is:
***How could the Quran be such a consistent mathematically and grammatically perfect piece of work while it was not even written down as it was revealed to the Prophet. The whole Quran was memorized by the prophet and his friends before it was written down. What type of writing goes a similar development, where the text is completely memorized and formulated before it's written. I can just assume that Shakespeare thought of his ideas, wrote them down, crossed them, corrected them, formed drafts, then finalized them. Great classical musicians did similar things of writing drafts, correcting them, then coming up with final scripts. How can a writer have a final copy of something of this magnitude in his head and immediately puts it down on paper and never correct it and yet it remains as we see it today perfect.???? How??? On top of this equation , consider the fact that Prophet Muhammed was illiterate and unknowledgable in the ABC of arabic not to consider the complex arabic rules and grammer.

Originally posted by Flores
I had the same feeling about the Quran, but the question in mind that still couldn't be answered is: ***How could the Quran be such a consistent mathematically and grammatically perfect piece of work while it was not even written down as it was revealed to the Prophet.
...
What type of writing goes a similar development, where the text is completely memorized and formulated before it's written. Not to ding Mohammed because I believe he was a great man, but there is the possibility that there was some editing during the writing process. But that's not even really necessary:

Many of the ancient 'writers' relied primarily upon mnemonic devices and were quite capable of creating, memorizing and revising great tracts of "literature" solely from memory. Writing was a fairly rare technical skill generally left to scribes; the actual creation of a work was very often performed mentally long before commitment to paper. Think of the powerful orators throughout history who stepped up on stage with a single note-card or only a glass of water. Think of the powerful Greek and Roman plays, performed by illiterate actors.

This is not really so unusual even today except that since writing and reading are so prevalent we rarely memorize whole texts. But if you think towards your occupation and the massive amounts of information you carry in your memory and are able to actively modify and work with... it's pretty much the same thing. I've been in my industry for about 15 years (not counting school) and very little of what I use is relegated to paper. I make daily revisions to that information, deleting, modifying, correcting, and adding, all without use of pen and paper. I'm betting you do too. It's just not in the form of a work of literature.

Great classical musicians did similar things of writing drafts, correcting them, then coming up with final scripts.Actually, some of the most highly regarded ones didn't. Mozart is said to have never made revisions... perfect works of art born directly from his mind, never mind simple songs but entire concerts and operas with parts for hundreds of voices and instruments. Ditto with J.S. Bach who not only could write without corrections but could turn a simple musical phrase into a complete work on the fly never having to write any of it down at all, simply playing it as he created it.

How?Human genius. It happens.

On top of this equation , consider the fact that Prophet Muhammed was illiterate and unknowledgable in the ABC of arabic not to consider the complex arabic rules and grammer.Obviously not. He may have been illiterate in that he could not read and write but he was obviously a genius as far as spoken Arabic which would indicate that he had an excellent understanding of Arabic syntax and grammar. Leave it to the scribes to record it for us.

~Raithere

Originally posted by Raithere
Human genius. It happens.

I agree that Human genius happens, but I believe that genius findings were all true findings based on solid foundations. Mozart was not a fraud, he didn't steal a bunch of ideas from another to represent as his, and if he did, the test of time would have shown it clearly.

Raithere, when I was a first year college student, I learned that lies and deceit don't have legs, I learned that if I memorize without understanding my calculus and end up passing with a B, I'll flunk my fluid mechanics later. So how did Muhammed develope a master piece based on false and decietfull theory, what is the difference between Muhammed and all other theists that couldn't produce one chapter as consistent and convincing as he did? And if Muhammed is indeed our Mozart in the area of religion and philosophy, then how could we be willing to attest that Prophet Muhammed was a genius in his views and his writing abilities while we can not even begin to believe his basic message. Did Muhammed lie about the message of god? Did Muhammed lie when he said that these words are not my words but only revealed to me by god thru an archangle mediator of god? If Muhammed indeed wrote a great book like that that moved billions, why didn't he take the credit and make a god of himself, specially if he knew that god had no hand in his alleged inginuity?

Raithere, evaluating Muhammed as a genius or expert without attesting that he is true is a circular reasoning and unfair evaluation that is not working well for me, and I don't have the heart to discount a miracle of writing and ideologies that I have before me in the name of a decietful genious who was able to trick humanity. A decietfull person would not produce but a series of deciets that my heart can detect quickly. This is like doing an evalution of a PhD dissertation, acepting it as an excellent piece of work, yet not believing in it's validity and thus defualting the author as the biggest scam in history and misguiding others about it.

Originally posted by Flores
So how did Muhammed develope a master piece based on false and decietfull theory, what is the difference between Muhammed and all other theists that couldn't produce one chapter as consistent and convincing as he did?That there is a difference between Muhammad and "all other theists that couldn't produce..." is arguable and essentially a subjective opinion. However, the reason is that religion is an expression of the human experience, not about God. The 'lie' comes in when people insist upon concrete literalist interpretations.

we can not even begin to believe his basic message.Again, it depends upon how one decides to interpret what that message is. As I view it, most religions can be boiled down into certain essential elements that run true throughout human experience.

Raithere, evaluating Muhammed as a genius or expert without attesting that he is true is a circular reasoning and unfair evaluation that is not working well for me, and I don't have the heart to discount a miracle of writing and ideologies that I have before me in the name of a decietful genious who was able to trick humanity.When did I accuse him of being deceitful? If I respect him for anything, I respect him for the truth contained in his work. But you need to look deeper than the words themselves. Take a look at any great work of literature and ask yourself, "What makes this great?" Greatness lies only partly within the words themselves for no matter how well written it would be valueless without the underlying truth within the work. It doesn't matter if the story is literal fiction or non-fiction without truth it's nothing.

A decietfull person would not produce but a series of deciets that my heart can detect quickly. This is like doing an evalution of a PhD dissertation, acepting it as an excellent piece of work, yet not believing in it's validity and thus defualting the author as the biggest scam in history and misguiding others about it.When a child comes to you and tells a tall tale do you accuse them of deceit or do you look to the truth the child beholds in their story? How does the mind of man compare with (or even conceive of) God/Unity/Reality (whatever you wish to call it)? Every word spoken or written about God must by necessity be infinitely less than the reality of God, how then can anything said of him be anything but a distant metaphor?

~Raithere

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian


The more I read scinece, the more Muslim I become


it's called confirmation bias

Originally posted by Raithere
That there is a difference between Muhammad and "all other theists that couldn't produce..." is arguable and essentially a subjective opinion. However, the reason is that religion is an expression of the human experience, not about God. The 'lie' comes in when people insist upon concrete literalist interpretations.

Raithere, I'm afraid that I see it clearly that your are ten steps ahead of me in this discussion, and It makes me smile to affirm the initial idea in my head that you are a one wise man/woman, the quality of a mentor. I would love to get into more depth with you about your own personal interpretation of the Quran, but as my daddy used to tell me, "if your friend is made of honey, don't lick it all in one sitting".

Originally posted by Raithere
Again, it depends upon how one decides to interpret what that message is. As I view it, most religions can be boiled down into certain essential elements that run true throughout human experience.

Except that most religions at least in my opinion delivers news or gospels of the dimension unknown to man in his life. Gospels relating to the purpose of life, the meaning of death, personal accountability, and final mass balance judgement. These things are not experieces, they are clearly exterior information extrapolated from the future, that is meant to shed light on our current experience, but not really information stemming from our everyday lifes. A lot of people veiw the past as their guide and compass, while I think the future is what is guiding us and not the past...The past is gone and done with. God has revealed to us the future for guidance, but we somehow insist on looking at the past for answers.

Originally posted by Raithere
When did I accuse him of being deceitful?

You didn't, my bad, and I get three bads per post. And really who cares Raithere. If I ever get a letter from you, does it have any bearing if I or you accuse the mail man of being decietfull. Don't I have eyes good enough to recognize Raithere logic and writing anywhere. The mail man could try to sabotage the message, but a trained eye can't be fool by that.


Originally posted by Raithere
If I respect him for anything, I respect him for the truth contained in his work.

And as you said, your appreciation and understanding of the book is different than mine and it might be similar, who knows, and it seems that the Quran stresses this aspect in the use of the sentence "For those who understand" in every other verse.

Originally posted by Raithere
But you need to look deeper than the words themselves. Take a look at any great work of literature and ask yourself, "What makes this great?" Greatness lies only partly within the words themselves for no matter how well written it would be valueless without the underlying truth within the work. It doesn't matter if the story is literal fiction or non-fiction without truth it's nothing.

Amen to that, and it's that deeper look that is getting us lost.....The Quran challenges us to look at our universe for understanding, yet it tells us that everytime we look, our eyes will come back hurt and burdened. To what extent do we need to look, specially that we were told that our eyes is not designed to handle entirely what we are trying to look at.

Originally posted by Raithere
When a child comes to you and tells a tall tale do you accuse them of deceit or do you look to the truth the child beholds in their story? How does the mind of man compare with (or even conceive of) God/Unity/Reality (whatever you wish to call it)? Every word spoken or written about God must by necessity be infinitely less than the reality of God, how then can anything said of him be anything but a distant metaphor?

I like to look at the truth, but I hate using the example of a child or anything dear to me. It just brings back bad memories of why christianity have deteriorate so much. Muhammed is not my child, nor is he my fellow countryman, or anyother metaphor. Muhammed is a human being vulnerable to make all the mistakes that I can make, but he was strengthened with a miracle that enabeled him to deliver the emminent load to humanity. The load he delivered is not his, nor is he more insightfull than you and me. He was just a chosen vehicle, and god have the right and insight to chose whomever he wants, that being a truthfull man or a criminal, and the proof is in the pudding of the message, not in the character and attributes of the deliverer of the message.

<i>If we add up the total words of both "sea" and "land" we get 45. Now if we do a simple calculation:
32/45 X 100% = 71.11111111%
13/45 X 100% = 28.88888888%

Above is what we know today, the percentages of Water (Sea) and Land in the world. Yet another miracle in the Quran.</i>

...or proof that you can always find "amazing" coincidences in any document if you spend enough time playing around with its contents.

Originally posted by Flores
I would love to get into more depth with you about your own personal interpretation of the Quran, but as my daddy used to tell me, "if your friend is made of honey, don't lick it all in one sitting".You can lick me all you want. ;) But honestly you are much more conversant with the Quran than I am; I really have only a superficial understanding of the text itself. Many of the underlying concepts, however, are universal IMO.

Gospels relating to the purpose of life, the meaning of death, personal accountability, and final mass balance judgement. These things are not experieces, they are clearly exterior information extrapolated from the future, that is meant to shed light on our current experience, but not really information stemming from our everyday lifesIt's not about the past or the future; it's about the now. Think about what 'final judgment' means. It means that no act is insignificant. It means that every detail of our lives is important in regards to the ultimate reality, our final arbiter. Most religions extol the value of compassion, the importance of our deeds, our words, even our thoughts and emotions. All religions tell us that we are not insignificant but that we are important, primarily to each other.

If I ever get a letter from you, does it have any bearing if I or you accuse the mail man of being decietfull.An important thought... I'll get to it below.

And as you said, your appreciation and understanding of the book is different than mine and it might be similar, who knows, and it seems that the Quran stresses this aspect in the use of the sentence "For those who understand" in every other verse.Which is a call to look deeper, to question further. It indicates that the truth is not superficial to the work but lies within.

Matthew 13:13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

[39.18] Those who listen to the Word and follow the best thereof, those are (the ones) whom Allâh has guided and those are men of understanding.

To what extent do we need to look, specially that we were told that our eyes is not designed to handle entirely what we are trying to look at.My tendency is to interpret such a statement as indicating that we cannot know absolutely but that it is important to 'look' and to try and understand. But I'm not familiar with the reference.

Muhammed is a human being vulnerable to make all the mistakes that I can make, but he was strengthened with a miracle that enabeled him to deliver the emminent load to humanity.Try to get past the literal interpretation, it's not important. Consider a question I once posed to a Christian, "If I could build a time machine, take you back and prove definitively that Jesus did not perform any miracles or come back from the dead, would you still believe what you believe." His answer was, "No." But the truth is truth no matter what the source is so why should it matter? He had placed the status of the messenger above that of the message.

But what if we consider the messengers to be purely human and the message, whatever the true source, to have been verbalized by human minds and spoken in a human voice. Context (cultural, historical, political, etc.) then becomes significantly more important because it gives us a better understanding of what the message really is. It helps us to perceive the message more clearly if we have at least some clue of where the messenger was in relation to these things when the message was delivered. The 'deterioration' of certain sects of Christianity are in many ways a result of ignoring this but it also happens within certain Islamic traditions as well. Noting where derivations of religions seem to have lost the message ask yourself how and why.

~Raithere

Originally posted by James R
<i>If we add up the total words of both "sea" and "land" we get 45. Now if we do a simple calculation:
32/45 X 100% = 71.11111111%
13/45 X 100% = 28.88888888%

Above is what we know today, the percentages of Water (Sea) and Land in the world. Yet another miracle in the Quran.</i>

...or proof that you can always find "amazing" coincidences in any document if you spend enough time playing around with its contents.

Coincidences ???? Coincidences can happen onece or twice not hundered of times in ONE BOOK!!!

I did not ''play'' around with its contents, remember we are dealing with a book that is considered the constitution of 2 billion muslim around the world....we are dealing with the true uncorrupted word of Allah Almighty.

http://www.it-is-truth.org

<i>Coincidences can happen onece or twice not hundered of times in ONE BOOK!!!</i>

Sure they can - and the longer the book the more "hidden messages" you can create from its contents. That's why the bible and the Qu'ran are so popular with "code" nutters.

<i>we are dealing with the true uncorrupted word of Allah Almighty.</i>

Oh? How do you know?

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Dr.Tarig Al Swaidan discovered some verses in the Holy Qur'an that mention one thing is equal to another, i.e. men are equal to women.
Comments on the assertion that there are
“Statistical Miracles of the Noble Quran”

First of all, the Quran was put together after Mohammad’s death by an early caliph
Second, it was not put in chronological order, as given, but from longest to shortest suras
Third, there is no telling how much of the original was saved after the deaths of some of
those entrusted with it to memory or palm frond
Fourth, the fact that only the so-called original Arabic Quran is correct, implies to me that
it is an Arabic tool for conquest, which by the subsequent actions of its followers proves
me right, they didn’t send missionaries first, they sent conquerors to all ends of the earth
Fifth, any god that can only ‘speak’ Arabic, must be Arabic (as in a tribal god)
Sixth, if there is no compulsion in religion, why can’t people leave islam without repercussion?
Seven, if islam says that it is more correct than Judaism or Christianity because it came after
to correct them, then all later revelations can be the last, so that mormonism would be more
correct that islam? Since it is after?

Check these sites out:
http://www.carm.org/islam/koran.htm
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm
http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

I'll be looking forward to making a few jaws drop.........


coming soon to a sciforum near you ;)






Watch This space



:D

Originally posted by James R
<i>Coincidences can happen onece or twice not hundered of times in ONE BOOK!!!</i>

Sure they can - and the longer the book the more "hidden messages" you can create from its contents. That's why the bible and the Qu'ran are so popular with "code" nutters.

<i>we are dealing with the true uncorrupted word of Allah Almighty.</i>

Oh? How do you know?

Look man, dont say silly things, you cant have hunderd of coincindences in one book....

How do I know the Noble Quran is the true word of God ? show me ONE contradiction in the Quran !! no one through history was able to find a single contradiction or scientific errors in the Quran.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Randolfo
Comments on the assertion that there are
“Statistical Miracles of the Noble Quran”

First of all, the Quran was put together after Mohammad’s death by an early caliph
============================
P S:

This is Not true, the Quran was complete just before the death of the prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

=============================
Second, it was not put in chronological order, as given, but from longest to shortest suras
=============================
P S:

WRONG...the second surah in the Quran(the cow) is very long.

==============================
Third, there is no telling how much of the original was saved after the deaths of some of
those entrusted with it to memory or palm frond
==============================
p s:

back to my first answer.

==============================
Fourth, the fact that only the so-called original Arabic Quran is correct, implies to me that
it is an Arabic tool for conquest, which by the subsequent actions of its followers proves
me right, they didn’t send missionaries first, they sent conquerors to all ends of the earth
================================
P S:

WRONG AGAIN, it is well KNOWN historical fact that the muslim armies NEVER reached Indonesia and yet now indonesia is the BIGGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WITH 200 MILLION MUSLIM !!!

Another example is the barbaric pagan tribes who invaded the muslim world in the 12th century, they were so brutal, they destroyed Baghadad totally, they were massively superior, if they wished, they could have forcefully converted muslims into their pagan religion, what happened howver is UNIQUE in history, for the first time in history an invading forces so superior CONVERT to the religion of the weaker invaded.......GO READ SOME HISTORY.

===================================
Fifth, any god that can only ‘speak’ Arabic, must be Arabic (as in a tribal god)
================================
P S:

Allah does not speak Arabic, speaking is HUMAN ATTRIBUTE and cant be applied on God, the Quran was revealed in Arabic because it was sent to the Arabs who were so corrupt, Islam message is UNIVERSAL and that's why we have 55 muslim countries span from INDONESIA IN THE EAST TO MOROCCO IN THE WEST.
==========================
Sixth, if there is no compulsion in religion, why can’t people leave islam without repercussion?
==========================
P S:

Did you ever see someone got killed for leaving islam ??

Every system has its own laws, if you desert the army in certain times you will be killed, so why this hypocrisy ???

==============================
Seven, if islam says that it is more correct than Judaism or Christianity because it came after
to correct them, then all later revelations can be the last, so that mormonism would be more
correct that islam? Since it is after?
==============================
P S:

This is nonesense, first of all, you cant compare small sect like the mormons to the largest Abrahimic religions.

Second, everyone who came after the prophet Muhammd claiming to be prophet has been proved to be liar either by studying their lives or reading about their ends ( the founder of the mormons cult is great example ).

Check these sites for more information:

http://www.muslimheritage.com/

http://www.xmission.com:8000/~dderhak/index/moors.htm

http://www.harunyahya.com

http://www.themodernreligion.com

http://www.it-is-truth.org

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
[QUOTE]
First of all, the Quran was put together after Mohammad’s death by an early caliph
============================
P S:
This is Not true, the Quran was complete just before the death of the prophet Muhammad

Check history, you are wrong



=============================
Second, it was not put in chronological order, as given, but from longest to shortest suras
=============================
P S:
WRONG...the second surah in the Quran(the cow) is very long.

Open up your Quran, check it out, just look


==============================
Third, there is no telling how much of the original was saved after the deaths of some of
those entrusted with it to memory or palm frond
==============================
p s:
back to my first answer.

You must read only the sanitized version of history


==============================
Fourth, the fact that only the so-called original Arabic Quran is correct, implies to me that
it is an Arabic tool for conquest, which by the subsequent actions of its followers proves
me right, they didn’t send missionaries first, they sent conquerors to all ends of the earth
================================
P S:
WRONG AGAIN, it is well KNOWN historical fact that the muslim armies NEVER reached Indonesia and yet now indonesia is the BIGGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WITH 200 MILLION MUSLIM !!! I said the armies went out first, not “ONLY”, lets see to the West they ended up all across North Africa to Spain, stopped by Charles Martel at Pointers, France. To the North they ended up across to the doors of Constantinople stopped by what remained of the Byzantine Empire. To the South all across the Arabian Peninsula (stopped by the sea). To the East up to the steppe (where they womped the Chinese T’ang army). You can look up the years. The missionaries came later.


Another example is the barbaric pagan tribes who invaded the muslim world in the 12th century, they were so brutal, they destroyed Baghadad totally, they were massively superior, if they wished, they could have forcefully converted muslims into their pagan religion, what happened howver is UNIQUE in history, for the first time in history an invading forces so superior CONVERT to the religion of the weaker invaded.......GO READ SOME HISTORY.

I know, Tamer lame did, but the Mongols, Turks & Tartars saw a true warriors religion when the saw it, so why shouldn’t they convert? You can steal, rape, pillage, all the name of religion, if you live, you are rich with plunder, if you die, whoa, you go to heaven, 70 virgins & paradise, who could refuse?



===================================
Fifth, any god that can only ‘speak’ Arabic, must be Arabic (as in a tribal god)
================================
P S:
Allah does not speak Arabic, speaking is HUMAN ATTRIBUTE and cant be applied on God, the Quran was revealed in Arabic because it was sent to the Arabs who were so corrupt, Islam message is UNIVERSAL and that's why we have 55 muslim countries span from INDONESIA IN THE EAST TO MOROCCO IN THE WEST.

If it is so universal, why can't a Mexican like me see that? I see an oppresser religion, a cultural imperialist religion, a backward religion. Who has a so-called monthly fast, that only lasts during the daylight hours? Then the feast? Who makes suicide & murder a virtue? Who makes stealing & plunder from non-believers ok? Who makes lying to non-believers ok? Can you say “ISLAM”?


==========================
Sixth, if there is no compulsion in religion, why can’t people leave islam without repercussion?
==========================
P S:
Did you ever see someone got killed for leaving islam ?? No, I don’t live in a muslim country, you can check it out for yourself, use your browser, be a brave Syrian!



Every system has its own laws, if you desert the army in certain times you will be killed, so why this hypocrisy ???

So, you admit it’s an army? People can leave Christianity, Judaism, whatever here, if you live in Syria, do an experiment, tell every body that you have left Islam for Christianity, lets see how long you last? Are you a Brave Syrian?


==============================
Seven, if islam says that it is more correct than Judaism or Christianity because it came after
to correct them, then all later revelations can be the last, so that mormonism would be more
correct that islam? Since it is after?
==============================
P S:
This is nonesense, first of all, you cant compare small sect like the mormons to the largest Abrahimic religions.

Hey, islam had a small start too, how can you tell that it isn’t the “TRUE” religion? What is your criteria? How can you tell truth from error? What if God had really made Christianity the true religion & you couldn’t tell?



Second, everyone who came after the prophet Muhammd claiming to be prophet has been proved to be liar either by studying their lives or reading about their ends ( the founder of the mormons cult is great example ).
So how does Mohammad stack up to Jesus, the Buddha, and J. Smith? What criteria do you use? Was not Mohammad a murderer, a thief, a bandit, a terrorist, a deceiver? a warlord? a polygamist? a child molester? Where was his purity? His compassion? His mercy?

if it is so miraculous, why isn't this post in the Math, physics, or history sections? Let's see you put up the Quran against the nerds, the geeks, the geniuses? No can do, they'll laugh you off the planet! Get the comp's to tear it apart? You can not stand logic, truth, bye

Proud_Syrian:

<i>How do I know the Noble Quran is the true word of God ? show me ONE contradiction in the Quran !! no one through history was able to find a single contradiction or scientific errors in the Quran.</i>

Start here:

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

Originally posted by James R
Proud_Syrian:

<i>How do I know the Noble Quran is the true word of God ? show me ONE contradiction in the Quran !! no one through history was able to find a single contradiction or scientific errors in the Quran.</i>

Start here:

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

YEAH RIGHT !! Answering Islam hate site !! LOOOOOOOL

You can start with here too:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran.htm

;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Randolfo
Check history, you are wrong

==============================
P S:

Look man, you know you are ignorant about Islam history so why you want to insist on your ignorance ??

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history/chronology/

================================

Open up your Quran, check it out, just look
================================
P S:

Again, stop being pathetic, I know my Quran, this is the second Surah and it is VERY VERY LONG:

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobae002.htm

================================
You must read only the sanitized version of history
==================================
P S:

Oh right !!! sanitized version of history is what ISLAMOPHOBES usually read.

================================
I said the armies went out first, not “ONLY”, lets see to the West they ended up all across North Africa to Spain, stopped by Charles Martel at Pointers, France. To the North they ended up across to the doors of Constantinople stopped by what remained of the Byzantine Empire. To the South all across the Arabian Peninsula (stopped by the sea). To the East up to the steppe (where they womped the Chinese T’ang army). You can look up the years. The missionaries came later.
================================
P S:

Again you are showing deep bias against the history of Islam, muslim armies went there to crush the romans and the Spanish who were threatning and murdering Muslims.

So, I did not hear a single word from you about INDONESIA AND MALAYSIA and how they became muslims !!! could it be you dont have an answer ??

Anyway, to read about this famous myth that Islam spread by sword, check this out:

http://www.thetruereligion.org/swordspread.htm

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/convert/sword1.htm

================================
I know, Tamer lame did, but the Mongols, Turks & Tartars saw a true warriors religion when the saw it, so why shouldn’t they convert? You can steal, rape, pillage, all the name of religion, if you live, you are rich with plunder, if you die, whoa, you go to heaven, 70 virgins & paradise, who could refuse?
================================
P S:

What kind of nonesense is that ?? the Mongols and the Turks and the Tatar were killing murdering and plundering BEFORE they converted to Islam, they dont need Islam, yet THEY CONVERTED and their conversion transformed them into CIVILIZED NATIONS..

stop parroting this myth about the 72 virgins...it is utter lie, nothing in Islam about virgins...LOL

=================================

If it is so universal, why can't a Mexican like me see that? I see an oppresser religion, a cultural imperialist religion, a backward religion. Who has a so-called monthly fast, that only lasts during the daylight hours? Then the feast? Who makes suicide & murder a virtue? Who makes stealing & plunder from non-believers ok? Who makes lying to non-believers ok? Can you say “ISLAM”?
==================================
P S:

Hang on a second !! are you saying Islam make it ok to steal and plunder and lie to non-believer ??? SHOW ME WHERE IN THE QURAN ALLAH ALMIGHTY ORDERED MUSLIMS TO DO THAT ???

Stop being brainwashed by lies and myths....

Islam is SPREADING IN MEXICO SO FAST...YOU JUST NEED TO ASK THOSE MEXICANS WHY ON EARTH THEY ARE CONVERTING TO '' BACKWARD''' RELIGION:

CHECK THESE MEXICAN SITES:

http://www.islammexico.org.mx/Fundamentos/Salat/Salat_Eid.htm

http://hispanicmuslims.com/articles/mexico.html

http://www.islam.com.mx/home.html

http://www.finalcall.com/international/mexico07-02-2002.htm

http://www.webislam.com/numeros/1999/articulos/TX_99_11.HTM

http://www.beautifulislam.net/converts/mexico_discovers_islam.htm

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/LatinAmerica/mexico.html

===================================

No, I don’t live in a muslim country, you can check it out for yourself, use your browser, be a brave Syrian!
================================
P S:

Check it for myself ?? LOL..... you are like a parrot, you repeat what others say without even bothering to check it out...LOL.

==============================

So, you admit it’s an army? People can leave Christianity, Judaism, whatever here, if you live in Syria, do an experiment, tell every body that you have left Islam for Christianity, lets see how long you last? Are you a Brave Syrian?
============================
P S:

I did not say Islam is an army, hell, do you understand English ?? I gave example of the army and if you desert the army in certain times you will be killed....there are some misguided people who leave Islam, NOTHING HAPPEN to them....show me EVIDENCE, SHOW ME LINKS....I DONT ACCEPT HEARSAY MR.PARROT.

================================
Hey, islam had a small start too, how can you tell that it isn’t the “TRUE” religion? What is your criteria? How can you tell truth from error? What if God had really made Christianity the true religion & you couldn’t tell?
=============================
P S:

Islam is the true religion because it is the fastest growing religion in the WORLD, muslims are now 2 BILLION and growing, churches in Europe are being sold to muslims to convert them into mosques....
==================================
So how does Mohammad stack up to Jesus, the Buddha, and J. Smith? What criteria do you use? Was not Mohammad a murderer, a thief, a bandit, a terrorist, a deceiver? a warlord? a polygamist? a child molester? Where was his purity? His compassion? His mercy?
================================
P S:

You are so rude, so abusive and so hateful....someone who described THE NOBELEST MAN IN THE WORLD LIKE THAT IS JUST NOT WORTHY TO ANSWER TO....

Read this SIR:

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

George Bernard Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM, Vol. 1, No. 81936.

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports."

Bosworth Smith, MOHAMMAD AND MOHAMMADANISM, London, 1874, p. 92.

PEACE BE UPON THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE RIGHT PATH.

Proud_Syrian:

<i>YEAH RIGHT !! Answering Islam hate site !! LOOOOOOOL</i>

Either what they say in this context is right or it isn't. There are plenty of other sites which give similar lists of examples.

BTW, proving that the bible has contradictions and errors does not at all affect whether or not the Qu'ran has contradictions or errors. I find it strange that you seek to link the two.

Originally posted by James R
Either what they say in this context is right or it isn't. There are plenty of other sites which give similar lists of examples.

It is purely not right. I have looked at many of their examples, and either they flat out wrong in the way that they applied simple linear algebra to a partial differential phenomena or they took things out of context where the answer was given in the following verse. Two small example of how they applied math wrong comes to mind.
1- Inheritance law. The law states that when a man dies, his debts must be paid, then his wife get 1/8 of the remainder, and his daughters get 2/3, and his sons get 1/2, bla bla bla. They automatically jump to the conclusion that Muhammed can't count and start adding the fraction up to show they don't add up to one....How idiotic? Of course, they fail to see that we are talking about the remainder of the inheritance and not simple division. Noone might get anything if the debt exceed the inheritance, but if the inheritance exceed the debt, then 1/8 of the remainder goes first to the wife, after the wife, the daughters inherit 2/3 of the inheritance, the remainder of the inheritance gets divided into half, where half goes to the son. Now, they tell you, the son is getting more than the daughter, but how do they know that? Girls get paid first in the sequence and the remainder might be so small that half of it might be much less than the 2/3 that the girl got.

2- Creation. God say he created the universe in 7 days, and he also say that he created heaven in two days, planets in 4 days, living creature in two days, so they add up the numbers and automatically jump the gun and say......Muhammed is an idiot who can't count.....But they are truly the idiots, because they failed to consider that the creation must have been overlapped and that the living could have been created together or partially together with the planets, ect.

Please bring on any verses that shout contradiction at you, and I'll be happy to clear it up for you.

Originally posted by James R
BTW, proving that the bible has contradictions and errors does not at all affect whether or not the Qu'ran has contradictions or errors. I find it strange that you seek to link the two.

I agree on that one. PS is not linking the two, he's merely making sure that another soul who have no problem believeing in the bible that to me is 1000 time shakier is putting a deaf ear on all the contradictions in his house and investigating the Quran. You obviously don't believe in the bible or the Quran, so that is not directed to you

Do I really need to list a whole bunch of other sites which point out errors and contradictions in the Qu'ran?

I'm pretty sure that no number of examples will convince either of you. It's all about faith, isn't it?

Originally posted by James R
Do I really need to list a whole bunch of other sites which point out errors and contradictions in the Qu'ran?


And do you really need to mention these sites at all if you don't intend to carry an intelligent discussion?


Originally posted by James R
I'm pretty sure that no number of examples will convince either of you. It's all about faith, isn't it?

You haven't brought up a single example, and you have not discussed anything. You made blanket statements, that makes me believe that no justification will ever convince you either, since your faith seem to be pretty established.

What a shame, I thought you carry around Aristotle wise words for a reason.

Flores:

<i>And do you really need to mention these sites at all if you don't intend to carry an intelligent discussion?</i>

I mentioned the site because somebody made an incorrect claim about how the Qu'ran contains no errors.

<i>You haven't brought up a single example, and you have not discussed anything.</i>

I've pointed you towards many examples. I trust you can read.

<i>You made blanket statements, that makes me believe that no justification will ever convince you either, since your faith seem to be pretty established.</i>

Now I'm confused. What is it that I'm supposed to have faith in, exactly? It seems to me that there are certain people in this thread (and elsewhere) making blanket statements about the Qu'ran based on faith.

What's that in the distance? Do I see a kettle talking to a pot?

<i>What a shame, I thought you carry around Aristotle wise words for a reason.</i>

I do indeed. :)

Originally posted by James R
Proud_Syrian:

<i>YEAH RIGHT !! Answering Islam hate site !! LOOOOOOOL</i>

Either what they say in this context is right or it isn't. There are plenty of other sites which give similar lists of examples.

BTW, proving that the bible has contradictions and errors does not at all affect whether or not the Qu'ran has contradictions or errors. I find it strange that you seek to link the two.

I am not linking the two James, but I find it odd that a clever moderator like you can go to low hate site such as answering islam !!

I have numerous sites that refute all lies and alleged contradictions in the noble Quran. The Quran is errors-free...fact.

Originally posted by James R
Do I really need to list a whole bunch of other sites which point out errors and contradictions in the Qu'ran?

I'm pretty sure that no number of examples will convince either of you. It's all about faith, isn't it?

No James, Islam is NOT about faith, we are UNLIKE christians, Islam is based on REASON and LOGIC.

I am ready to address any alleged contradictions or errors one by one.

Thanks.

<i>Islam is NOT about faith, we are UNLIKE christians, Islam is based on REASON and LOGIC.</i>

Oh, good.

Logically, the Palestinian-Israeli dispute is a waste of human life, isn't it? Jerusalem should be shared by Jews, Christians and Muslims. I'm sure that, as a logical Muslim, you'll agree.

Originally posted by James R
[BOh, good.

Logically, the Palestinian-Israeli dispute is a waste of human life, isn't it? Jerusalem should be shared by Jews, Christians and Muslims. I'm sure that, as a logical Muslim, you'll agree. [/B]

I agree totally, Jerusalem should be under neutral grounds and be open free city for all.....Tell that to the jews who call it Israel, hang their flag in it everywhere, and are currently occupying it and making the poor palestenians go through hell check points to visit......

Good point proud Syrian....Islam has nothing to do with Faith.....It's an active responsible choice to submit to the creator based on personal understanding and coupeled with major accountability for one's choice. The Quran doesn't have a Sura that is free from the sentence..."for those that understand".....So literally, god doesn't like the dumb even if they have faith.

I'm glad we agree on something, Flores.

<i>So literally, god doesn't like the dumb even if they have faith.</i>

Really? God doesn't like dumb people? Why not?

The Quran seems to make a lot of claims about how humans were created and what they were created from. Were we created from earth(11:61), dry clay (15:26,28,33, 17:61, 32:7), nothing (19:67) (or NOT from nothing (52:35)), wet earth (23:12), mire (38:71), water (25:54, 21:30, 24:45) or dust ( 3:59, 30:20, 35:11)?

This seems contradictory to me. Please explain.

It also seems to refer to a flat Earth:
God made earth like a carpet spread out…20:53
The earth is like a carpet spread out…43.10
Allah has spread out the earth…51:48
Allah made the earth a carpet…71:19
Allah made the earth as a wide expanse…78:6

Isn't the Earth a sphere?

What about this:
And he followed a road; Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness. (Qur'an 18:85-86)

How can a man reach the setting-place of the sun? How can the sun set "in a muddy spring"? Is this a mistake?

The Quran also says God created seven heavens, and decked the lowest heaven with lamps (Qur'an 67:3-5) and adorned it with the beauty of the stars (Qur'an 37:6). The Qur'an also states that the moon is within these seven heavens (Qur'an 71:15-16).

What are these lamps it is talking about? There aren't any lamps in the sky, are there?

Originally posted by James R
Really? God doesn't like dumb people? Why not?

Of course before I venue in this discussion, we must agree on the meaning of the word dumb. Dumb is not by any means a diseace or mental retardation. I would define it as mental laziness or concsiously abstaining from reaching one's potential and aptitude tthat result in ignorance. A dumb or ignorant person doesn't usually view himself/herself as dumb.

Dumbness is comparable to darkness, laziness in tackeling one's own problems and understanding of the root cause, can lead to ignorance about the problem and one's self. This ignorance is darkness because no guided steps can be taken in the correct direction unless the person figures out how to untangle the mess he built up over time. hence the use of the words light and darkness in the bible and Quran. The light spoken for in the scriptures is not a physical light, but a vivid crisp understanding that can help the person take further steps in the right path.

Understanding is the true light of believers that guides them in their path. Blind faith is bull shit that god doesn't accept.

Here's a quote from a Muslim scholar (Dashti, <i>23 Years</i>, pp.48-50):The Qur'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects... To sum up, more than one hundred Qur'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted.Are you still sure that the Qu'ran is perfect and contains no errors? Other Muslims seem to disagree with you.

Originally posted by James R
The Quran seems to make a lot of claims about how humans were created and what they were created from. Were we created from earth(11:61), dry clay (15:26,28,33, 17:61, 32:7), nothing (19:67) (or NOT from nothing (52:35)), wet earth (23:12), mire (38:71), water (25:54, 21:30, 24:45) or dust ( 3:59, 30:20, 35:11)?

This seems contradictory to me. Please explain.

It also seems to refer to a flat Earth:
Isn't the Earth a sphere?


First, let me tackle the flat verses sphere. The Quran speaks of the earth as expanded, vast, in layers, ect....There is no direct claim in the Quran that the earth is flat. If you have a verse please submit for my review. Your claim as far as the earth is flat is totally bogus.

As far as the claims about how humans were created. Let's look at each of these verses that you brought forward.

1- Created from earth
[11.61] And to Samood (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! serve Allah, you have no god other than He; He brought you into being from the earth, and made you dwell in it, therefore ask forgiveness of Him, then turn to Him; surely my Lord is Nigh, Answering.

In this verse, god clears up all speculations that we were created in the heaven like christians talk of and then decended to earth. God tells us that we were created from earth and meant to live on earth and our bodies will return to earth...No original sin, no man fell from heaven, no other crap.

2- dry clay.
[15.26] And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape.

There is no mention of the word dry clay in the Quran. The author of the site has inserted the word dry on purpose to make the wet claim in the Quran sound like a contradiiction. Still no contradiction, black mud is part of earth.

3- Nothing, 19.67
[19.66] And says man: What! when I am dead shall I truly be brought forth alive?
[19.67] Does not man remember that We created him before, when he was nothing?

In this verse, god was not at all explaining what we were created from, but he was contesting the Atheist believe that the dead will not come back to life, so god reminds us that, we were created from almost nothing, lack of life, clay, death, ect, and yet we were brought to life in our mother's wombs at what stage exactly, we have no idea. There is no contradictions here.

4- Not from nothing.....This is a total bogus claim from you. Examine the verses below
[52.33] Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe.
[52.34] Then let them bring an announcement like it if they are truthful.
[52.35] Or were they created without there being anything, or are they the creators?
[52.36] Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay! they have no certainty.
In these verses, god is saying that those who won't believe claim that the Quran is forged, so god asks them to bring a similar announcement, the Atheists also say that they were created without anything being around, or that they created themselves, ect.....Where in these verses does god say that we are not created from nothing....Seems to me the person that put this contradiction list was trying real hard to smear Quran at any cost.

5- wet earth.
As mentioned in 2, the word dry was never used in the Quran, so the assertion that the mud is wet is not contradictory to earth or mud.

6- Mire
Let's examine the Sura.
[38.71] When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust:
The english translation here mentions dust. The arabic word is really clay, and what is the difference between dust and clay. Dust is the particle, while clay is wet dust. The word Mire is not used in this translation.

7- Water.

Water is a component. God doesn't say here that we are created from only water. He just says water. No contradiction.

8- Dust
See comment 6, Again no contradiction.

James. Lack of faith is entirely not your problem. Ignorance and lack of understanding is hurting you big time. First ask yourself that question. Is it really worth is for a man like you to go to a non checked site without making any effort to check the orginal arabic verses to assert a wrong belief in your head that the Quran is wrong? Is it really worth it?

If you are planning on feeding on English translated Quran and the fact that English is way limited than arabic in vocublry and grammer which will result in imminent trivial contradictions to blaphsem the book....then go ahead, but you are digging yourself deeper in your ignorace about the subject, and ignorant is how you'll be treated by me in the future.

Originally posted by James R
Here's a quote from a Muslim scholar (Dashti, <i>23 Years</i>, pp.48-50):Are you still sure that the Qu'ran is perfect and contains no errors? Other Muslims seem to disagree with you.

You are so damn hilarious. What a hypocrite???? You are willing to consider a stupid scholar idiot word as command and diss a miracle work of art compiled 1500 years ago and accepted by billions. How the hell do I know that he is muslim? And who the hell care if he is muslim or being fucked by a donkey? How the hell do I know who is muslim????Only god can evluate the submittion state, since submittion is to god and not me or you....Are you retarded James?????

I don't give a shit if other people disagree with me. It's my life, my salvation, my understanding, my neck, my responsbility.

Originally posted by James R
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God made earth like a carpet spread out…20:53
The earth is like a carpet spread out…43.10
Allah has spread out the earth…51:48
Allah made the earth a carpet…71:19
Allah made the earth as a wide expanse…78:6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I noticed you added more garbage later, so let me explain.

Have you ever studied topography James? From a man's prespective, the earth can have zero slope, positive slopes, negative slopes, ect.... Also, can you cover the earth with a carpet? Yes of course. Who the hell said the carpet has to be flat??? I can lay out carpet on a sphere, downhill, uphill, anyway you want it. Again, the word flat was never used. Yet the word carpet is very accurate, because it implies that the earth is anchored in place like a carpet with gravity.


Originally posted by James R
quote:
How can a man reach the setting-place of the sun? How can the sun set "in a muddy spring"? Is this a mistake?


Well, according to our most modern calendars and time systems. China is the place designated the zero hour. The place that is touched by the sun first. Look at your globe and you'll find that china is the place of the sun setting and starting. Nothing wrong about that verse, unless I act dumb and start imagining the sun literally touching the ground.


Originally posted by James R
quote:
What are these lamps it is talking about? There aren't any lamps in the sky, are there?

What is the definition of lamps? There was no lamps back 1500 years ago? There was no electricity. Lamps meant stars. We are the idiots that used the word lamp to describe our current light fixtures.

Flores:

Interesting response. You're really stretching to try to make things fit, aren't you?

I mean, it's quite a stretch to claim that water and clay and mud and dust are all the same thing. But never mind. Maybe the Qu'ran is not actually wrong here, but just very vague. That suggests to me that it is less than perfect, because presumably a perfect text would be clear and unambiguous about important matters such as this.

<i>Is it really worth is for a man like you to go to a non checked site without making any effort to check the orginal arabic verses to assert a wrong belief in your head that the Quran is wrong? Is it really worth it?</i>

Given that every major text contains some errors, it would be astounding indeed if the Qu'ran contained not a single error. But with just a little checking, it is easy to see that the evidence points towards the text being less than perfect.

I notice you also avoided the point about the original arabic verses (incorrect grammar etc.)

<i>What a hypocrite???? You are willing to consider a stupid scholar idiot word as command and diss a miracle work of art compiled 1500 years ago and accepted by billions.</i>

I'm not dissing the Qu'ran. I'm just rebutting the silly claim that it contains no errors. Of course it is a very significant book, but it is nevertheless a book written by human beings, who are fallible.

<i>How the hell do I know that he is muslim? And who the hell care if he is muslim or being fucked by a donkey? How the hell do I know who is muslim????Only god can evluate the submittion state, since submittion is to god and not me or you....Are you retarded James?????</i>

No, I am not retarded, but thankyou for asking. Do you have something in particular against intellectually handicapped people, Flores?

BTW, it says a lot about you that you will call a fellow Muslim who, presumably, has dedicated a reasonable portion of his life to study your sacred text, a "stupid scholar idiot" when you know nothing more about him than his name.

<i>I don't give a shit if other people disagree with me.</i>

Therein lies the problem. You'll never learn anything with that attitude.

<i>Have you ever studied topography James? From a man's prespective, the earth can have zero slope, positive slopes, negative slopes, ect....</i>

Yes, I have, as it happens.

<i>Also, can you cover the earth with a carpet? Yes of course. Who the hell said the carpet has to be flat??? I can lay out carpet on a sphere, downhill, uphill, anyway you want it.</i>

How many bumpy carpets have you come across, Flores? LOL.

<i>Well, according to our most modern calendars and time systems. China is the place designated the zero hour. The place that is touched by the sun first. Look at your globe and you'll find that china is the place of the sun setting and starting. Nothing wrong about that verse, unless I act dumb and start imagining the sun literally touching the ground.</i>

That is exactly what the verse seems to imply. And again, you are severely stretching things to say the sun only rises and sets in China, don't you think? No, I'm sure you've convinced yourself.

<i>What is the definition of lamps? There was no lamps back 1500 years ago? There was no electricity. Lamps meant stars.</i>

Thanks for clearing that up. So:
The Quran also says God created seven heavens, and decked the lowest heaven with lamps (Qur'an 67:3-5) and adorned it with the beauty of the stars (Qur'an 37:6). The Qur'an also states that the moon is within these seven heavens (Qur'an 71:15-16).

The stars (lamps) are therefore in the lowest heaven. The moon is also within the seven heavens. Therefore, the Qu'ran is saying that, at the very least, the closest stars to the Earth are at least as close as the moon.

Scientifically, that seems to be incorrect. Oops! Another mistake in the perfect book.

Originally posted by James R
<i>Islam is NOT about faith, we are UNLIKE christians, Islam is based on REASON and LOGIC.</i>

Oh, good.

Logically, the Palestinian-Israeli dispute is a waste of human life, isn't it? Jerusalem should be shared by Jews, Christians and Muslims. I'm sure that, as a logical Muslim, you'll agree.

ABSOLUTELY, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT.

Originally posted by James R
Here's a quote from a Muslim scholar (Dashti, <i>23 Years</i>, pp.48-50):Are you still sure that the Qu'ran is perfect and contains no errors? Other Muslims seem to disagree with you.

LOOOOOOOOOL

Quote from a muslim scholar ?? DASHTI ??? lol who the hell is he ??? I never heard of him and I am sure the majority of muslims never heard of him........I know, it is answering islam site at it again.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by James R

That is exactly what the verse seems to imply. And again, you are severely stretching things to say the sun only rises and sets in China, don't you think? No, I'm sure you've convinced yourself.




I'm extremely convinced and you also have to be convinced. Check this out. Zul Qarnein means the man with two horns translated in Greek to be Al (The) Qarn(Asken in Greek), means horn (dr = dual in Greek). So Zul Qarnein is Alexander the Great. The Quran is telling the story of Alexander the Great, a history character that although it never was known to believe in god was described in the Quran as a man of vision and insight to understand the world. Alexander is known to visit China. Now, do you know that China has a muddy spring? Yes, they do...It's called the Yellow river....It's the most amazing thing for a sediment transport major like me, since this river is able to hold an incredible out of ordinary amount of sediment at all time and hence called the yellow river. China is also the place of the setting and rising of the sun, so geographically defining the place by it's time zone is an incredibly and miraculous way to do it 1500 years ago.

Originally posted by James R

The stars (lamps) are therefore in the lowest heaven. The moon is also within the seven heavens. Therefore, the Qu'ran is saying that, at the very least, the closest stars to the Earth are at least as close as the moon.


The Quran didn't say that, you did. No one knows the extent of each heaven. One heaven could encompass all the stars and planets that we see, and perhaps the other heaven are out of our knowledge and reach. Stating that the moon and some stars may lie in the same heaven doesn't speak of their proximity to one another.


Originally posted by James R

Scientifically, that seems to be incorrect. Oops! Another mistake in the perfect book.

You are the biggest oops, I've ever seen. Until now, you have not proved one single mistake in the Quran yet.....

Proud_Syrian:

Professor Ali Dashti was an Iranian Muslim scholar who wrote the book "23 years", about Muhammad and his 23 years of prophetic life. For his efforts, he was inprisoned during the rule of the Ayatollah Khomeni. He died in prison.

It seems he greatly upset a number of fundamentalist Muslims.

Another victory for free speech in Islam, it seems.

reading hef and the syrian on this page is sickening

Flores,

The whole thing about the sun only rising and setting in China is just silly, but let me go back a little. You said:

<i>Well, according to our most modern calendars and time systems. China is the place designated the zero hour.</i>

I missed this before. It's totally wrong, of course. If anything, the zero hour is defined by the Greenwich meridian, which passes through Greenwich (in England), not China, funnily enough.

Of course, the concept of time zones is very very recent, and was unknown when the Qu'ran was written.

I think I'm going to score at least 1 for the number of errors in the Qu'ran uncovered in this thread at this stage.

Originally posted by James R
Proud_Syrian:

Professor Ali Dashti was an Iranian Muslim scholar who wrote the book "23 years", about Muhammad and his 23 years of prophetic life. For his efforts, he was inprisoned during the rule of the Ayatollah Khomeni. He died in prison.

It seems he greatly upset a number of fundamentalist Muslims.

Another victory for free speech in Islam, it seems.

Scholar ?? wrote a book ??? GIVE ME A BREAK !!

:rolleyes:

Yes, a Professor is a scholar, Proud_Syrian. I don't suppose you're familiar with higher education.

Proud Syrian,

Of all the major religions in the world, I will fully admit that Islam is the one I know the least about, so I can not comment on the supposed contradictions that are being pointed out.
But I would like to learn much more about it, so I look for threads like this (showing both sides of arguments, plus pointing out the history and tennets etc in the religion).

What I would like to point out is your reaction to these alleged contradictions.

First of all your argument with Randalfo is silly at best.
You are both stating that the other is wrong and both telling each other to check for themselves, but neither of you are stating any sources of facts regarding some very simple things to prove, but expecting the other to do it.
OK, the Cow is very long.
How long?
How long is the first one?
Are there any after the Cow that are longer?
Which ones?
How long?
Same thing with the contradicting historical "facts"...
Where's the evidence from either of you?
"I'm right"
"No, you are stupid, you're wrong."
"Check your facts."
"No, you check YOUR facts."
It sounds like a couple of 4 year olds.

Also...

Your attitude seems to be pretty closed-minded, irrational and detrimental to your own personal growth and understanding.

You effectively issued a challenge by stating:
no one through history was able to find a single contradiction or scientific errors in the Quran.

James called you on that and posted a link to a web page that listed quite a few contradictions with links to some fairly comprehensive papers that back up the claims with verse and reason.

Your reply was to simply discount it because it comes from a "hate" site.
You question the intelligence and intentions of someone you admittedly know nothing about and mock him and call his credentials into question.
Then, when James answers, you continue to mock him and completely discount him without even addressing any real issues.

Scholar ?? wrote a book ??? GIVE ME A BREAK !!

You still have not addressed a single alleged contradiction listed.
If it is bullshit and meaningless drivel from a hate site, then it should be quite easy to debunk and disprove.
Did you even bother to read the claims put forth?

No James, Islam is NOT about faith, we are UNLIKE christians, Islam is based on REASON and LOGIC.
I see.
So reason and logic tells you to not even bother considering someone's point of view, regardless of how intelligent it may be, simply because they are of a different opinion than you?
I understand now.
If I agree with you I am a wise person that deserves your respect, regardless of any supporting evidence I may offer, however, if I disagree with you, regardless of any supporting evidence I offer, I am simply a brain-washed dullard that doesn't even deserve enough respect from you to even read what I have to say, nevermind respond to it.
Is that your basic policy with everything, or just Islam?

Again:
No James, Islam is NOT about faith, we are UNLIKE christians, Islam is based on REASON and LOGIC.
If that is true, then why not attempt to have a REASONABLE and LOGICAL discussion on the matter, rather than simply saying, "I am right, and the facts back me up, (without, of course, stating and supporting any of these "facts") and YOUR facts are simply hate induced propaganda (without, of coursem, refuting any of the "facts" offered)?
Can you?

Or do you prfer to sit in your statgnat myopic muddle of UNREASONABLE faith?

Originally posted by James R
Flores,

The whole thing about the sun only rising and setting in China is just silly, but let me go back a little. You said:
I missed this before. It's totally wrong, of course. If anything, the zero hour is defined by the Greenwich meridian, which passes through Greenwich (in England), not China, funnily enough.



You are so so so silly. Just view the current times all over the world and tell me who is ahead of everybody is it your silly England? Your brits are currently procrastinating and having their mid day nap thinking it's August 29th, while the chinease are getting up early to welcome August 30th. China is the first place that the sun of the new day touches and the Quran knows that, too bad you don't know that.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/


Originally posted by James R
Of course, the concept of time zones is very very recent, and was unknown when the Qu'ran was written.


To you it's a very very recent concept, to god, he creates the sun, moon, and earth, he knows that china the place of the yellow river recieves the sun rays first.

Originally posted by James R
I think I'm going to score at least 1 for the number of errors in the Qu'ran uncovered in this thread at this stage.

You score shit...yet you are determined to continue in being a donkey.

Originally posted by James R
Yes, a Professor is a scholar, Proud_Syrian. I don't suppose you're familiar with higher education.

Proud Syrian is only familiar with the concept of accredited colleges. The university of Osama Bin Laden or the christian coalition can issue all the PHD's they wish and it is less worthy than an accredited kindergarden degree.

A thorough investigation of your Ali Dashti didn't reveal anything. There is no professor in any accredidted university by the name of Ali Dashti. The only one I found in an unaccredited University happen to be another Ali Dashti a staff in the computer science department.
http://ecealpha.ece.eng.kuniv.edu.kw/computer/staff/alidashti.html


You got duped by Jerry Falwell and his clones James......I pity your ignorance.

Originally posted by spookz
reading hef and the syrian on this page is sickening

Who's taling??? Mr. Bulimia himself??? I know you can't help yourself, but It would do you a lot of good to resist the temptation of reading us.

Originally posted by Flores
To you it's a very very recent concept, to god, he creates the sun, moon, and earth, he knows that china the place of the yellow river recieves the sun rays first.
Flores,
On the globe japan and vladivostok (russia) are disposed towards east than china. moreover there is no first ray on a revolving globe. Koran has more better points to high light than senseless statistics like this.
if God wanted to highlight statistics He could have done in a better way. obviously that is not His intention. leave Koran alone for what it is.

Originally posted by everneo
Flores,
On the globe japan and vladivostok (russia) are disposed towards east than china.

The yellow river traverse this entire area and the Quran never mention china per say. The Quran mentions the race of the occupants of this land as the gog and Magog, who are known to us as the mongols. This is the race of some chinease, Japanease, and Russians.

Originally posted by everneo
moreover there is no first ray on a revolving globe.

In any geographic information system, a revolving globe or any other geometric piece is defined by a set of coordinates subject to universal directions which are set as east, west, north, and south coordinates, and since we revolve clockwise, the east become the initiator of each revolution.

Originally posted by everneo
Koran has more better points to high light than senseless statistics like this.

I agree completely, and I'm not in favor of using the Quran to demonstrate miracles or to even show it's worth, but the stupid discussion was initiated by Proud Syrian and by him starting it, I feel responsible for butting in and clearing imminent attacks and misconceptions.

Originally posted by everneo
if God wanted to highlight statistics He could have done in a better way. obviously that is not His intention. leave Koran alone for what it is.

Amen to you everneo. When us humans try to take a universal piece of writing that is designed to withstand the test of time and try to analyze it based on our limited understanding, then we are automatically running the risk of limiting the meaning of the passage to our current understanding....We will be in constant needing to adjust our analysis in the future to match future understanding. And there will always be people like James that feed on this human incompetance in understanding to show that the Quran is inaccurate.

Originally posted by Flores
The yellow river traverse this entire area and the Quran never mention china per say. The Quran mentions the race of the occupants of this land as the gog and Magog, who are known to us as the mongols. This is the race of some chinease, Japanease, and Russians.
Again, any traveller following silk route would know this. This need not be considered as a great revealation. atleast this is not one of core points of Quran.

I agree completely, and I'm not in favor of using the Quran to demonstrate miracles or to even show it's worth, but the stupid discussion was initiated by Proud Syrian and by him starting it, I feel responsible for butting in and clearing imminent attacks and misconceptions.
Now, this is a problem. It seems using Quran and Allah is the best way to be protected by Muslims. irrespective of the validness.. do you see the irony.? proudsyrian might have done this out of enthusiasm, but some of the misguided islamists use this weakness of muslims for their own use. when is the ummah going to realise this, Flores.?

Originally posted by everneo
Again, any traveller following silk route would know this. This need not be considered as a great revealation. atleast this is not one of core points of Quran.


It is not a great revelation, but it makes me feel good to know that I can read my complex Quran and be able to extract historic meaning, my interpretation my be right or wrong, and it has no bearing on the validity of the Quran, but it has a special value to me that can't be extrapolated to another soul. Anyways, if you follow my discussion with James closely, you'll notice that I was not the one that brought up the Alexander the Great Journey, or the miracles in the Quran topic, but it was James the brought up the out of context "the sun sets in a muddy spring" verse, to mock the Quran, so I merely clarified to him that he is ignorant and showed him one, maybe correct, maybe not, personal analysis and interpretation of the Sura. Which I personlly think is much more intelligent than anything he can come with. By the way, the Sura of the Cave is one of the most difficult Suras in the Quran, almost the equivalent of the revelations of Daniel.......And while Daniel's revelations may contain many miracles and future informations, they may appear to be the object of mockery to many.

Originally posted by everneo
Now, this is a problem. It seems using Quran and Allah is the best way to be protected by Muslims. irrespective of the validness.. do you see the irony.? proudsyrian might have done this out of enthusiasm, but some of the misguided islamists use this weakness of muslims for their own use. when is the ummah going to realise this, Flores.?

Using is not the intent of any belief system. I have no questions in my mind at the end of the day regarding any Sura, because the bottom line is that I believe in my creator and no Sura, proof, power in this world will change my stand of believeing in my one creator. The Quran is not something that I will use to my rescue, neither is the bible, or the dos and don't of some prophet. I don't forsee myself standing at a golden gate, blowing a horn and reciting majical password verse to enter. It's my core believe and understanding that I rely on. And to only god is my judgement.

My boss at work is a christian and he travels door to door handing a one way ticket to heaven booklet prepared by the church and full of bible verses. I pity these type of people, whether they happen to be christian or muslim. Do they seriously thing that their lives has simplified itself to a little booklet with a bunch of verses that they will use to recite infront of a golden gate, the equivalent of, open Sesame.....How so rediculous and a mockery to my god almighty.

People often percieve my lack of knowledge about heaven, hell, my own salvation, ect....as weakness. Chrisitans seem to think that they are saved already with their words, and that I'm not saved, just because I'd rather stay in my humble corner and say that I'm at the mercy of my god who may send me to hell or heaven as he please, and I can only run my best and wait for his judgement and mercy. I don't believe in religious shortcuts, easy paths, baptism, born again, ect, and that somehow protects me againest those that profit from human weakness and vulnerability by selling fake security. I believe that I'm weak, vulnerable, and is quite in the need for god's mercy, but no human have my medicine. I'm secure that my god is mercifull, compassionate, and just.

Forcing new meanings to the book to affirm my believe is not my style, because at the end of the day, god will judge me based on my understanding and not based on how I convinced others.. But also not saying a word while a book of quality is being mocked is equally not my style. That be Islam or christianity, Bible or Quran.

A true muslim, christian, or jew in my eyes in one that have found in his heart a special unique relationship with god that gave him/her peace to go on with their life do the right thing, live in a balance, and die knowing that it's not the end. The more the relationship is kept private, the more the Gem is protected, while the more others where allowed to touch it, the more it lost it's glitter. The concept of the Ummah as a bunch of muslims uniting as you percieve it is wrong. God never said that fellow muslims will form a motherhood to nations. God only said that believers in general will get to know each other and congregate. A congregation of muslims, christians, jews holding hands and setting their differences aside and humbling themselves under their one god is the real Ummah in my eyes. A bunch of muslim secularist, christian fundementalists, or jews are not an example of an Ummah.

Everneo, .........
BEFORE I'M A MUSLIM, I'M A BELIEVER.
BEFORE YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN, YOU'RE A BELIEVER
BEFORE THEY'RE JEWISH, THEY'RE BELIEVERS

God only distinguish between a believer verses a non believer. God's will doesn't encompass secular religions. We are all acting againest the will of god by secularizing. God's will didn't intent to create judiasm, christianity, or Islam. God sent Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, and others to those who disbelieved so that the prophets may show us the way to believing. God didn't send us cult leaders to form exclusive clubs and confuse nations to form separate Ummahs to fight, he only sent messangers and the source of the message is one....But we are greedy and not humble enough to see this, and would rather place ourselves and our pride before the will of our god.

Flores:

<i>You are so so so silly. Just view the current times all over the world and tell me who is ahead of everybody is it your silly England? Your brits are currently procrastinating and having their mid day nap thinking it's August 29th, while the chinease are getting up early to welcome August 30th. China is the first place that the sun of the new day touches and the Quran knows that, too bad you don't know that.</i>

Too bad you've never heard of New Zealand, if you want to run that argument. New Zealand, by the way, is not in China or Russia.

You do make me laugh.

<i>To you it's a very very recent concept, to god, he creates the sun, moon, and earth, he knows that china the place of the yellow river recieves the sun rays first.</i>

I would like to think that your God would be somewhat more sophisticated than you portray him to be. You should realise that making silly claims actually <b>weakens</b> the argument for converting to Islam rather than strengthening it. Smart people will see through silly claims. You'd be much better off highlighting all the correct things in the Qu'ran than in insisting that it is infallible. You're actually making it seem less valuable than it is.

<i>Proud Syrian is only familiar with the concept of accredited colleges. The university of Osama Bin Laden or the christian coalition can issue all the PHD's they wish and it is less worthy than an accredited kindergarden degree.</i>

Whatever. You won't find Dashti listed as a member of an accredited university for the very simple reason that <b>he is dead</b>, as I said before. Once again, you're making yourself look silly.

<i>Amen to you everneo. When us humans try to take a universal piece of writing that is designed to withstand the test of time and try to analyze it based on our limited understanding, then we are automatically running the risk of limiting the meaning of the passage to our current understanding....We will be in constant needing to adjust our analysis in the future to match future understanding. And there will always be people like James that feed on this human incompetance in understanding to show that the Quran is inaccurate.</i>

So, you're saying that the meaning of the Qu'ran is malleable, and subject to different interpretations? God should really have been clearer, shouldn't he?

BTW, I hope you realise that the Qu'ran is inherently ambiguous. All translations derived from certain accepted "readings" of the Qu'ran, because the original texts in Arabic do not record all aspects of the language as it would be spoken.

There are around 10 different, sanctioned, "readings" of the Qu'ran.

<i>It is not a great revelation, but it makes me feel good to know that I can read my complex Quran and be able to extract historic meaning, my interpretation my be right or wrong, and it has no bearing on the validity of the Quran, but it has a special value to me that can't be extrapolated to another soul.</i>

I'm glad it makes you feel good. At the same time, I'm disappointed that you're not interested in the truth, but only in what makes you happy.

<i>I have no questions in my mind at the end of the day regarding any Sura, because the bottom line is that I believe in my creator and no Sura, proof, power in this world will change my stand of believeing in my one creator.</i>

See, it <b>is</b> all about faith, after all.

<i>A true muslim, christian, or jew in my eyes in one that have found in his heart a special unique relationship with god that gave him/her peace to go on with their life do the right thing, live in a balance, and die knowing that it's not the end.</i>

There is nothing wrong with that.

<i>God only distinguish between a believer verses a non believer. God's will doesn't encompass secular religions.</i>

That's a pity. It also seems quite arbitrary and petty.

BTW, technically there's no such thing as a "secular religion".

Originally posted by one_raven

First of all your argument with Randalfo is silly at best.
You are both stating that the other is wrong and both telling each other to check for themselves, but neither of you are stating any sources of facts regarding some very simple things to prove, but expecting the other to do it.

"I'm right"
"No, you are stupid, you're wrong."
"Check your facts."
"No, you check YOUR facts."
It sounds like a couple of 4 year olds.

thanks for pointing out this little tit-for-tat we were having, but I will admitt that I do not feel like I need to be Proud_Syrian's teacher, he doesn't pay me enough for that.

also since he is on the web, I suspect that he has access to a browser, to check at least 2 little facts;
1) who was responsible for putting the Quran together? &
2) what year it was done in?


I don't think that's too much to ask for? I think the answer to those 2 questiions will prove that any so-called miracles in the Quran are artifacts of man, those that put it together, so any miracles came from the hands, the minds, the hearts of men

The following quote is from:
http://www.quran.org.uk/ieb_quran_elmasry.htm
"8. Less than twenty years after the Prophet's death (632) and during Uthman's caliphate (644- 56), the Koran was compiled, upon the instruction of the Prophet companion and Caliph Uthman, into one bounded standard book (Musshaf), hence the name Uthman's Musshaf. Uthman's Musshaf was reproduced into master copies and distributed to major Islamic centers of learning. An early version of Uthman's Musshaf is believed to be the one at the Islamic Museum of Tushkent, Uzbekistan.
Uthman ordered that all other versions of the Koran in part or in full, to be burnt. Burning was the common method used to dispose of holy writings. However it is possible that some of these early versions of the Koran survive till the present. "

The following quote is from:
http://i-cias.com/e.o/uthman.htm
"Uthman bni Affan
Arabic: cuthmân bni caffân
(c. 580-656) Third caliph of Islam 644-656.
Uthman is credited for having centralized the administration of the Muslim state, and it was during his reign that the compilation of the Koran was completed."

The following quote is from:
http://answering-islam.org/Hahn/uthman.htm
"Many Muslims claim that the Qur'an today is the precise reproduction of the Qur'an which God gave to Muhammad through the angel Jibril. Nothing added. Nothing subtracted. No differences at all! Some Muslims would add that Muhammad checked the Qur'an yearly. Before he died, he and Jibril finalized it by reviewing it twice. This and similar claims are intended to assure Muslims and others - that since the Qur'an is God's Word, therefore God has perfectly preserved it, and/or since God has perfectly preserved the Qur'an, therefore the Qur'an is God's Word."

If this claim is correct, how are we to account for the following hadith (tradition) found in the respected collection of Muslim traditions called Mishkat al-Masabih:

Ibn Abbas said he asked Uthman1 what had induced them to deal with al-Anfal2 which is one of the mathani3 and with Bara`a4 which is one with a hundred verses, joining them without writing the line containing "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful," 5 and putting it among the seven long ones."

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian

P S:

Look man, you know you are ignorant about Islam history so why you want to insist on your ignorance ??
Ignorant? Not hardly, you have to paint a pretty picture of your lying man-made religion, otherwise how would you get converts? Let anyone look, and what do they see? A religion that broke out into the world to conquer, to pillage, to rape to bring terror to the rest of the world.

P S:

Again, stop being pathetic, I know my Quran, this is the second Surah and it is VERY VERY LONG:
are you blind? Don’t you see? The Quran was tampered with after the fact? Ok, so there was one flaw in their system, the left one surah out of order. So answer this Proud-Syrian, if the Quran is from God, why is the Quran out of order from how it was revealed? Why would it be put out of order? Could it because magicians, mathematicians & wholy men wanted to put it in a magic order, a man-made order, with codes & symmetry? How convenient, why is that? If it was from god, it would have stayed in the order that Mohammad revealed them, don’t you think?

P S:

Oh right !!! sanitized version of history is what ISLAMOPHOBES usually read.
and the version that islamfanatics read would be? The BIG BOOK of LIES? In descending order, form longest to shortest?

P S:

Again you are showing deep bias against the history of Islam, muslim armies went there to crush the romans and the Spanish who were threatning and murdering Muslims. By “Romans”, I take it you mean the Byzantine Empire? Because Rome had fallen over two hundred years prior. You make me laugh, so is that how islamantics view history? The Byzantine Empire was busy defending itself against the Sassanid Empire (Persia=Iran), and when they met muslims, according to you, they foolishly flung themselves against arab swords & tried catching arab arrows with their chests? And what about the Spanish? There was no “Spanish” then either, it was the Visigoth Kingdom, which one claimant to the throne, foolishly asked for muslim help, will while they were there, the muslims saw how easy it would be to conquer a kingdom governed by foreign elites (the Germanic Visigoths), and in the process of fighting back for 781 years to regain their country, this forged the “Spanish” people out of the Visigoths, Romans & Iberio-Celts. Read more world history, open your eyes to the ‘real world’, that non-muslims know. So who did the threats & the murdering?

So, I did not hear a single word from you about INDONESIA AND MALAYSIA and how they became muslims !!! could it be you dont have an answer ??

Anyway, to read about this famous myth that Islam spread by sword,


since you only see what you want to see, I’ll repeat what I said from the post on page two of this thread,

==============================
Fourth, the fact that only the so-called original Arabic Quran is correct, implies to me that
it is an Arabic tool for conquest, which by the subsequent actions of its followers proves
me right, they didn’t send missionaries first, they sent conquerors to all ends of the earth
================================
P S:
WRONG AGAIN, it is well KNOWN historical fact that the muslim armies NEVER reached Indonesia and yet now indonesia is the BIGGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WITH 200 MILLION MUSLIM !!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said the armies went out first, not “ONLY”, lets see to the West they ended up all across North Africa to Spain, stopped by Charles Martel at Pointers, France. To the North they ended up across to the doors of Constantinople stopped by what remained of the Byzantine Empire. To the South all across the Arabian Peninsula (stopped by the sea). To the East up to the steppe (where they womped the Chinese T’ang army). You can look up the years. The missionaries came later.


P S:

What kind of nonesense is that ?? the Mongols and the Turks and the Tatar were killing murdering and plundering BEFORE they converted to Islam, they dont need Islam, & after they converted they just kept on, what warriors they were, but of course they confined the rest of their wars against non-believers, which is entirely ok, isn’t it?

yet THEY CONVERTED and their conversion transformed them into CIVILIZED NATIONS.. I would find it hard to consider these people civilized, they still kept conquering, fighting, laying waste, do you know what ‘Janissaries’ are & how they became that?, do you know who raped & pillaged their way across the Balkans? See: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0825967.html


stop parroting this myth about the 72 virgins...it is utter lie, nothing in Islam about virgins...LOL OK, so they are slightly used non-virgins then? & why does the figure keep on changing; 70, 71 & 72? Are you saying that nowhere in islam does it say that martyrs will go to a paradise with 70 virgins? Liar! See:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html

P S:

Hang on a second !! are you saying Islam make it ok to steal and plunder and lie to non-believer ??? SHOW ME WHERE IN THE QURAN ALLAH ALMIGHTY ORDERED MUSLIMS TO DO THAT ??? check out the evidence, what was Mohammad’s first victory? Badr? Would that not be the start of a pattern? Look at what happened in Spain after 711. islam means peace to muslims only, for muslims only, all others are fair game to pillage, rape, harass, hold hostage, extort, enslave & otherwise debase into Dhimmitude? See: http://www.dhimmi.org/

Stop being brainwashed by lies and myths.... that would be islam buddy, wash your brain clean, open your eyes, your mind & your heart, if islam is the religion of ‘peace’, why does it hate so much, why did it start to fight & conquer so soon after its inception? What happened after Mohammad’s death in 632? What did peace-loving muslims do for the next thousand years?


Islam is SPREADING IN MEXICO SO FAST...YOU JUST NEED TO ASK THOSE MEXICANS WHY ON EARTH THEY ARE CONVERTING TO '' BACKWARD''' RELIGION:

CHECK THESE MEXICAN SITES: …
so your people are active little devils, how insidious, poor deluded Mexican captives of those devious lies

P S:

Check it for myself ?? LOL..... you are like a parrot, you repeat what others say without even bothering to check it out...LOL.
No, the problem for you, is that I know too much about islam, & it’s not a laughing matter

P S:

I did not say Islam is an army, hell, do you understand English ?? I gave example of the army and if you desert the army in certain times you will be killed....there are some misguided people who leave Islam, NOTHING HAPPEN to them....show me EVIDENCE, SHOW ME LINKS....I DONT ACCEPT HEARSAY MR.PARROT.
so people get killed for the treason of leaving islam, is that what you are saying? So you won’t take anybodies word for this? Then you test it for yourself, tell your family & friends that you “have converted to Christianity & want to invite them to your baptism & would they be so kind to come?” See how long you live, Mr. Brave_Syrian?

P S:

Islam is the true religion because it is the fastest growing religion in the WORLD, muslims are now 2 BILLION and growing, churches in Europe are being sold to muslims to convert them into mosques....
so ‘fastest growing’ makes it true? Then being Chinese & Indian must be the true nationality, they are also the fastest growing & about 2 billion strong too. And eating McDonald’s must be the true food, why they have billions & billions served. Truth does not need billions of followers, only to be the “truth”, true to the ‘saved’ is not in numbers, but in “who” & “what” you believe, Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” That’s in the Gospel of John 14:6, (chapter14, verse 6)


P S:

You are so rude, so abusive and so hateful....someone who described THE NOBELEST MAN IN THE WORLD LIKE THAT IS JUST NOT WORTHY TO ANSWER TO.... If Mohammad was the most ‘noble’, then why doesn’t everybody believe that? Is it ‘noble’ to kill the old, those that disagree with you, slaves that mock, poets that oppose, women in their bed, Jewish Arabs? ‘Noble’ indeed, then I must be an ‘angel’ for telling the truth, read the Hadiths to see how Mr. Noble dealt with opposition, See:
http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/blasphemy.html

very noble indeed, do you suggest we all act so noble? If we started now, we could create the biggest anarchist, chaotic uprising that the world has known, the only nobility we would see, is people sacrificing to save others from the sword & bloodshed.



Read this SIR:

[B]"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.
influential yes, but right? No way, he was a warlord, a lawgiver, a tribal leader, that used a tribal god to unite the arabs into a unified fighting force, so were where the delegations to the Jews & Christians? The debaters & missionaries to the Halls of Kings of the world? Only swords flashed & blood flowed until arabs had conquered all those that they could, then the debaters & missionaries came afterwards


"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

George Bernard Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM, Vol. 1, No. 81936. so tell us, was GB Shaw a muslim? Did he die a believer?

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports."

Bosworth Smith, MOHAMMAD AND MOHAMMADANISM, London, 1874, p. 92. must be a closet muslim? Did he ever read the Hadiths? All the histories of the vanquished? Probably not!

PEACE BE UPON THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE RIGHT PATH. & war to all else? Or are we not worthy of “PEACE”? Could you tell everybody what muslims call the rest of the non-muslim world? Does “Dar al-Harb” mean anything to you? See: http://bismikaallahuma.org/History/dar_islam-harb.htm

Greetings all,

The history of the Quran's formation shows it is anything but perfect, any argument based on codes found in the Quran is as scientific as seeing shapes in the clouds :


1. The Quran was not finalised until well after Mohamed's death
2. Much was lost at Yamama
3. Variant Qurans existed in the early days
4. The variants were different to modern Qurans
5. Abu Bakr collected his version from scraps and memories
6. Abu Bakr's version faded early from importance
7. Uthmann chose Abu Bakr's version for political expediency
8. Uthmann et al made changes to the new version
9. Muslims criticised Uthmann for destroying the Quran
10. Muslims crticised the new version as missing passages
11. Later changes were made to the Quran
12. Variant readings of the Quran exist to this day


This all goes to show the Quran is a book made by fallible people who chose between different versions, added to it, changed it, left out parts etc. etc.


Details follow :


Quran not written down or finalised during Mohamed's lifetime

The Quran was not collected in writing in Mohamed's time :

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr as-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed. Then Abu Bakr said : "... you should search for the Qur'an and collect it ". By Allah! ... Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"... (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.477).

A great part of the Quran was only recited shortly before Mohamed's death :

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah sent down his Divine Inspiration to His Apostle (saw) continuously and abundantly during the period preceding his death till He took him unto Him. That was the period of the greatest part of revelation, and Allah's Apostle (saw) died after that. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.474).


This shows that the Quran was not collected or written down, or finalised before Mohamed's death - the Quran only formed many years after Mohamed.


Some of the Quran was lost to posterity :

Many passages were lost at the battle of Yamama :

Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama ... but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them. (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.23).

This loss of some of the Quran inspired Abu bakr to begin collecting it.


Other Qurans existed in the early days

The variant Quran of Salim existed before Yamama and before Abu Bakr's (Zaid's) version (Salim was killed in the battle) :

It is reported ... from Ibn Buraidah who said: "The first of those to collect the Qur'an into a book was Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifah". (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.135).

(This contradicts the claim that Abu Bakr collected the first Quran.)


Abdullah ibn Masud was considered the foremost authority on the Quran by Mohamed - his Quran was used in Kufa in Iraq.

The Quran of Abu Bakr (first Caliph) passed to Umar (2nd Caliph) then to Hafsah (daughter of Umar and "wife of the prophet"). Hafsah became a recluse and kept the Abu Bakr Quran hidden a