Ever since my grandfather, step father and father died, starting 2003,

In our house we have been getting messages from them. I am serious about all of this because of the fact that these things are not normal. For instance, the DVD will turn itself on from time to time and even open itself up. A feather appeared in a box that I made in a grief group I used to be in that has only been opened once before inside of my house, and the second time I opened it a feather appeared. Street lights will often come on as I drive by, just as my car passes by it, primarily a single street light that is always off. Sometimes a light will come on in my mothers bedroom in the closet, and she would ask me if I turned it on, I say no, and she tells me she never turned it on. A feather once appeared above me inside my house out of thin air.

These occurances are not just coincidence. And the DVD occurance is not a malfuncton becuz malfuction means cease to function MAL function.

Care to explain any of your spiritual messages? For those of us who are believers?

You are allowing your imagination to run amok, most likely from the trauma of deaths in the family.

You have obviously suffered quite a traumatic experience if you felt the need to go to a grief group. I would venture you aren't over it yet. It seems you need to see signs from these people, because you haven't let them go.

Go back to the grief group, and tell them what you have told us. They'll be able to help you out of it. Don't let this derail your life, go see them, and let them help you.

Actually a DVD coming on by itself is utterly impossible, even in a malfunction.

It's not derail because I am quite sane. If it was derail it would happen all the time. And I am not going to a grief group anymore because A. it doesn't help, and B. I don't need to.

Don't patrinise me please. I know what I am talking about here.

If the DVD opening up, and shifting the disc's around was something natural care to explain to me how. And logically back it up. No sceptical views that make it sound even more crazy like the magic bullet theory or something like that, something logical and scientifically truthful, nothing so desperate as to make it not sound like spiritaulity.

Also this never happens to my neighbors so it's not sun spots, thus they would talk about it as well. Their DVD's do not do the same.

Also these things happend after they died.

It is not derail, and I am not insane... But if you wish to think that, then I suppose it's your choice but derail ranges from it happening to me all of the time. So I don't know why the DVD would SOMETIMES open itself up and shuffle discs around, when I happen to walk in the room.

If you 2 are common sceptics on spirituality I can understand, but if your not, then I ask you why this sounds crazy?

These aren't coincidences, a feather cannot appear in a box that has never been opened, or fall out of the ceiling. What I say sounds crazy is the idea that someone can come up with a theory debunking how a feather appeared in a box never opened. And it sounds even more ridiculous then the theory on spirituality.

It is clear that you DO need to go back to grief counselling, so go.

You are suffering a well known psychological reaction. You are externalising your grief into physical manifestations, because you are not through the stage of 'acceptance' necessary for a full recovery.

I'm not saying some of this stuff didn't happen, I'm questioning why you think any of it is significant or linked to your recent bereavements. Of course, none of it is signifiant, you are looking for that. Go back to your group, and tell them what has happened to you, they will be able to help.

first...

1) do you have birds??

2) do you own cheap electronics??

-MT

Care to explain any of your spiritual messages? For those of us who are believers?

I believe that this thread is a spiritual message to remind me that perception is a wishful process, a creative exercise.

In an extreme case somebody in a desert sees an oasis, and believes it to be real. In an ordinary circumstance it is more a matter of interpretation, with a choice of ways to explain anything, according to the need felt, whatever it takes to maintain the necessary delusion.

Life is what we make of it, literally.

--- Ron.

Actually a DVD coming on by itself is utterly impossible, even in a malfunction.

My cd player also turns itself on sometimes, by itself.
When it is on standby, and there are surges in the electricity network, then odd things can happen to certain electronic devices.
Like if the neighbours are using their electric woodsaw, or someone in the neighbourhood is welding.


Also these things happend after they died.

It could be that you just pay more attention to things, and are noticing what you haven't noticed before.

Some people don't notice it though.

This happened to me today, an electric light bulb controlled by a dimmer switch began to switch itself on and off, continually cycling through bright and dim, quite spooky until I eventually saw the light, so to speak. To scrape wallpaper off the ceiling I'd been using a damp sponge to soak the stuff and water had run down and got into the switch.

--- Ron

Actually a DVD coming on by itself is utterly impossible, even in a malfunction.

Don't patrinise me please. I know what I am talking about here.

If the DVD opening up, and shifting the disc's around was something natural care to explain to me how. And logically back it up.


Do you really know what you're talking about, logically?

An electronic component may or may not come on by itself, but that isn't something anyone here can explain simply because we can't analysis your DVD player.

But if you want logic, then how can you logically JUMP to the conclusion that dead people have anything to do with your DVD player? How is that logical?

nothing so desperate as to make it not sound like spiritaulity.

Isn't that what you've already presented?

Also this never happens to my neighbors so it's not sun spots, thus they would talk about it as well. Their DVD's do not do the same.

That is irrelevant, the question is how you KNOW it's dead people who are controlling your DVD player?

Also these things happend after they died.

And THAT is your logic? People died hence they are controlling your DVD player?

These aren't coincidences, a feather cannot appear in a box that has never been opened, or fall out of the ceiling. What I say sounds crazy is the idea that someone can come up with a theory debunking how a feather appeared in a box never opened. And it sounds even more ridiculous then the theory on spirituality.

No, your theory on spirituality would be more ridiculous.

Ever since my grandfather, step father and father died, starting 2003,

In our house we have been getting messages from them. I am serious about all of this because of the fact that these things are not normal. For instance, the DVD will turn itself on from time to time and even open itself up. A feather appeared in a box that I made in a grief group I used to be in that has only been opened once before inside of my house, and the second time I opened it a feather appeared. Street lights will often come on as I drive by, just as my car passes by it, primarily a single street light that is always off. Sometimes a light will come on in my mothers bedroom in the closet, and she would ask me if I turned it on, I say no, and she tells me she never turned it on. A feather once appeared above me inside my house out of thin air.

These occurances are not just coincidence. And the DVD occurance is not a malfuncton becuz malfuction means cease to function MAL function.

Care to explain any of your spiritual messages? For those of us who are believers?


It's simple really. Your dead relative's consciousness persisted after death because their souls are part of the zaboombafoo dimension. They want you to follow the street lights to a media rental store, get a DVD about boxed / caged birds, and watch it in the closet.

You can belive this is all 'real'; the truth is, that some of these things can be explained.. The dvd player can happen, it happens to mine, and my cd player.. Everything else could be something different.. The human mind and body deals with things in certain ways, it can distort and change anything you can possibly think. It can help you cope with situations and things in life, and it can change your life for the good or the worse.. Who are you people to sit there and tell this person that he needs help? You may need help more than he does, life has been distorted so much over the years, no one can say what is real and what is not.. I am not a beliver in one god, nor am I a preacher of any religion. I belive in spirit, and the definition of spirit is both real and in the mind..

Regulus : I think the only one who can possibly decipher any type of real message from this, would have to be yourself. For only you know everything about what 'they' could be trying to tell you..

*sigh*

I suppose your right. I have no proof that all of these eventualities are spiritual messages.

But as of now they presently have no explanation. Which means not only messages are fair game but all other explanations.

But I know what I saw, and I am not deranged here. They are eventualities unexplained, and I suppose that's all I can say. Seeing as there IS no proof it's spiritual, and presently unexplained.

But i don't need help, and won't get it, WHY? Becuz there is no problem. The moment you need help is when it becomes a problem in life. If the rest of you think it's a problem, then fine, think that if you want. But there is no problem, I am not suffering, there is nothing hurting me, and there is no problem, and there is no help needed.

And no, I have noticed well before that DVD's don't come on by themselves, so NO, these things NEVER happend before.

Please.... no conjectures on my mind again, you don't know me, nor can you infer I am deranged. So far Railburn has been the most reaosable here, if all of you are going to criticize me on this topic first take a look at yourselves. You make conjectures with no proof on my mind. If you would like to talk about wild assumptions talk about conjugating someones mind without knowing them.

Oh and again, for the..... 3rd time, I am not religious. I call the Omnipotence God simply on the premise of being catholic, and that has been engrained in my mind... even if I denounce my Religion.

Anyway, seeing as this topic has gone to all hell, and apsolutely no believers exist on this board (only skeptics), a moderator might as well delete it.

Hopefully........

...But as of now they presently have no explanation. Which means not only messages are fair game but all other explanations...


This is a common misconception resulting from the exercise of belief. Something that doesn't have an explanation isn't a void for which every conceivable idea becomes a possibility or a substitute explanation. It simply means you don't know and have an opportunity to study the reality of the situation.

I can... but it also means that spirituality isn't totally out of the picture here.

As for belief, I am not an evangelical Christian. I believen an Omnipotence, but not on the premise of being a lamb of the Omnipotence.

I put reason into things, belief is belief, but without reason it means nothing. I am part of no religion.

And no, I have noticed well before that DVD's don't come on by themselves, so NO, these things NEVER happend before.


But you weren't always there, observing the DVD player.

Maybe the thing happened while you were in another room, or asleep, or away etc.

Does the DVD player have an infrared receiver for a remote control unit? Remotely controlled devices may be triggerred accidentally, by flashes of sunlight or whatever. This is not so unusual. Our light dimmer switch reacts to an infra red remote control and also on odd occasions as if by magic, because of other sudden changes to the local light conditions.


Anyway, seeing as this topic has gone to all hell, and apsolutely no believers exist on this board (only skeptics), a moderator might as well delete it.

Hopefully........I can... but it also means that spirituality isn't totally out of the picture here.
..................
I put reason into things, belief is belief, but without reason it means nothing. I am part of no religion.

I told you before, I believe that this thread is a spiritual message.

According to what is anything a spiritual message or not a spiritual message?

Everything that happens is a spiritual message: Wake up, you are still alive.

Do you think that spiritual messages arrive regardless of our states of mind? That would be an extremely boring sort of spiritual conversation.

Interpretations of events are spiritual messages that people send to themselves. As a matter of common sense it is simply not possible to interpret anything with an absolute objectivity. There is no such thing. Everything is perceived according to our state of mind, the conditioning imposed by our previous actions and experience.

By the same token then this thread will be interpreted according to the previous experience of those who read it, while you interpret my posting according to your own understanding, from your own previous experience. C'est la vie, quite normal, nothing to be so upset about.

You are going to have to look a long way to find anybody in perfect agreement with your every view. It never yet happened to me, at least.

--- Ron.

I can... but it also means that spirituality isn't totally out of the picture here.

That doesn't quite make sense. Spirituality is a deep awe-ful appreciation of something. How does that affect the DVD player for example?


As for belief, I am not an evangelical Christian. I believen an Omnipotence, but not on the premise of being a lamb of the Omnipotence.

It doesn't matter what the content of the belief is. The process is the same. It's acceptance of something as true without regard to supportive or contradictory evidence.


I put reason into things, belief is belief, but without reason it means nothing. I am part of no religion.

Belief and reason are quite different. One is based on emotional criteria to determine truth while the other is based on evidentual criteria.

*sigh*

I suppose your right. I have no proof that all of these eventualities are spiritual messages.

Since spirits and spirituality have never been shown to exist, that would mean no one has proof or evidence they exist, same as you. In other words, if you did have evidence, you'd be the first.

But as of now they presently have no explanation. Which means not only messages are fair game but all other explanations.

You could most likely eliminate spiritual messages as an explanation, there's no evidence it exists.

But I know what I saw, and I am not deranged here. They are eventualities unexplained, and I suppose that's all I can say. Seeing as there IS no proof it's spiritual, and presently unexplained.

So, then there's no reason for you to jump to the conclusion that what you've experienced is spiritual in nature.

Anyway, seeing as this topic has gone to all hell, and apsolutely no believers exist on this board (only skeptics), a moderator might as well delete it.

That would mean that you're not really looking for an explanation but are in fact simply trying to find others that believe in spirituality so as to support your assertion. In other words, you really want to believe it was your dead dads spirits.

That is something completely different, of course.

But you weren't always there, observing the DVD player.

Maybe the thing happened while you were in another room, or asleep, or away etc.Then again it's also on when I walk in the room.

It never turns itself off.

Then again I can't prove that. Good show.

Well, there may be no evidence CC, but I am not simply believing it with no logic attached. I assure you.

Many people have come up to me and presented me with God paradoxes and I have shown them that they aren't. Only seemingly paradoxal.

I have no evidence, but it's not to say I don't use logic and reasoning to believe what I believe.

And Q, how can something presently exist if you have no evidence?

It should be a nuteral situation.

Well, there may be no evidence CC, but I am not simply believing it with no logic attached. I assure you.

Many people have come up to me and presented me with God paradoxes and I have shown them that they aren't. Only seemingly paradoxal.

I have no evidence, but it's not to say I don't use logic and reasoning to believe what I believe.

Either way, you're still accepting it as truth. Would it maybe make sense to suspend judgement? Ex. I have seen these behaviors and have a hypothesis that *something* may be the case? This way that *something* is in a position to be tested and thusly proven or falsified. Alternatively, if there is no intention to test it, then you can make the assertion a speculation. It's a way of saying, I have a thought and by no means am I commiting it to an assertion of truth.

And Q, how can something presently exist if you have no evidence?

It should be a nuteral situation.

If you have no evidence for the existence of something, you discard the notion of that something until evidence presents itself.

DVD players that turn on by themselves is not evidence.

You would also have to ask yourself, what is the connection between dead dads and a DVD player? What message are they supposedly sending, exactly? And what would lead you to believe they are in fact sending such a message, other than your wanting to believe it true?

Regulus,


Here's something that I thought to be a "spiritual message" (at the time), and you can see it all at this forum.

I was going through some personally demanding issues, and also I posted here -- http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=862471 -- and there was something I just couldn't post! How odd!

Then, I investigated. The first report of findings was this http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48412 ,

and then later, on, I discovered this http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48492 .

There is a sensible explanation of what was happening, even though at the time, it at first seemed to me as if God or some Higher Power or something was trying to communicate a special meaning to me, and that it was catching my attention by making it impossible for me to post something. And that something, I thought was something I must pay attention to, take to heart.

And yes, it is sensible to take this to heart (this was what I was trying to post) --

"Usually, if you tell a "weak" person to be "strong", this person will most likely curl
up and present a "strong" exterior, be "strong" by worldly standards (earn lots of money, be sexually successful, not be emotionally hurt, be educated etc.), while on the inside, they will be falling apart, and one day, implode."




but to assume that it takes some Higher Power or spirit to point this out to me -- this seems a bit of a stretch to me.

"Usually, if you tell a "weak" person to be "strong", this person will most likely curl
up and present a "strong" exterior, be "strong" by worldly standards (earn lots of money, be sexually successful, not be emotionally hurt, be educated etc.), while on the inside, they will be falling apart, and one day, implode."

As babies people are weak and gullible. There is then of course the need to toughen up to survive the interim before we eventually fall apart, when it all goes full circle.

The process is ordinarily known as "life", all much the same on the inside, remarkable only to the extent that one prefers to remark.

How is that then for a spiritual message?

--- Ron.

but to assume that it takes some Higher Power or spirit to point this out to me -- this seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Then stretch.

Superstition is when people attribute any unexplained event to a supernatural source because a natural explanation is unknown or seems unlikely. It happens both within and without religion. The real issue isn't what happened, or even the possible explanation (which occupies most minds), but the significance that you're giving it. Sometimes it takes such a jolt to someone's reality before they start paying attention to something that's otherwise rather ordinary: the miracle doesn't lie in the event, but in what happens in your mind - and it's no less of a miracle for that.

What happened may not be evidence of anything beyond the fact that nobody knows all the variables, and that ignorance can have significance. Being superstitious is a little game people play with nature in order to fill in the blanks, perhaps to artificially infuse some sense or mystery into life, to gain some kind of handle on the unknown and the unpredictable nature of nature (whether they call it science, luck, or fate, or karma, or destiny, or God's will) - and indirectly they also serve as handles for controlling ourselves when we feel out of control. For the same reason, people can be superstitious about "spiritual" things as well, like prayer or magic, when they attempt to use it as a handle on God or the supernatural, a kind of manipulation to turn things, or ourselves, as we want them to be. We naturally resist the idea that we really don't know everything the future, or even the present, holds, much less control it.

All the while, life lumbers inexoribly forward, stumbling over itself at every step, and while we think every stumble is significant because it breaks the pattern, it's actually the whole movement that should capture our attention. At different stages of life we realize that yes, the wheel keeps turning, and yes, it's rough going, and yes, we don't always recognize the road it's on, but if we fixate on any of these things we might miss the big picture... and perhaps an even bigger one...

the tap on the shoulder becomes more insistent over time.

Not in my case though. It's been more like my shadow being tapped on the shoulder (ever seen that?)

I believe you Regulus, the dead brings us messages all the time if we are willing to pay attention.

I believe you Regulus, the dead brings us messages all the time if we are willing to pay attention.

Why not just email them directly?

askthedead.com (http://www.bonymail.com/)

I don't need to. But I will probably go see that movie, love Tim Burton.

I'm not a religious person at all. In fact I consider myself agnostic but there are things, like mentioned in this thread, that have no logical explanation. I hope I'm not in the wrong category but;

My maternal grandmother whom I was very close to died 3 years ago. She was able to spend some time with my 5 year old nephew before she passed. He referred to her as "GG" and we encouraged it. It was cute and she loved it.
Almost 3 years pass without mention of her. I'm at my mothers in a comfy chair as he stands in front of me, looking about 2 feet above my head at the ceiling. That's when he said it out of the blue: "Uncle *****? Did you see GG die?" I was chilled to my marrow and replied I had not but I loved her very much. I asked what he was looking at and he said, totally deadpan: "I'm looking at GG. Right there!" I was scared but couldn't show it. I hugged him and said GG was in 'Heaven' now, blah-blah-blah.
"GG" had not been mentioned in a long time. To this day I think he really saw her, behind ME at my mothers house. He never said anything about it again. I'm mixed between feeling terrified and feeling like crying about losing her all over again. Am I crazy or can a deceased loved one be seen?