Hi all,

Spent the weekend at an Astronomy camp, WOW mind blowing stuff.

Saw things with my human eye that can only be described as amazing!!!

Spiral galaxies, nebular, the Jewel Box (very pretty), Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury, Venus, the spider galaxy and much, much more. To top off what was an immense time I saw the most awesome meteorite that one could witness, it streaked across the sky like a giant flare leaving a trail of stardust behind lasting about 5 mins, the dust curved and twisted as the upper atmosphere distorted it.

Some of the galaxies we looked at were trillions of km's away and beyond our field of vision were millions more. This is one huge place that God has created, and we as people living on this rock are but a microscopic speck in the vastness of it. Even so what it has impressed upon me more than anything else is that as insignificant as we may seem in this vastness to the one who created it all we are the most significant part of it.

1 Kings 8:
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

God is greater in size than the universe and all of creation, how can we describe Him!

Psalms 8:
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Who are we that this being would consider us, yet we were created and placed in a position of honour to share in this His most wonderful work.

Psalms 33:
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

He spoke the universe into existence. God conceived of it in His mind and through the very breath of His mouth spoke it into existence!

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Isaiah 65:17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

A great and mighty day approaches where God who spoke the heavens into existence and breathed life into man will again speak directly Himself and call into account all of creation.

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Psalms 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

Can we man number the stars or call them by name, the more we discover the greater the immense size of creation becomes and we realise there are no numbers to contain the multitude of stars in the multitudes of galaxies in the universe. Let alone a way to name each of them.

Job 9:
1 Then Job answered and said,
2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.
6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.
10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.
12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?

Verse 10 says it all.

Job 22:12 Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are!

Beyond our measurement is the creation, and beyond our comprehension is God of all creation. This is why He came as a man, Jesus. So that we could see in him the very nature and character of God personified.


Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Amos 5:8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:

Seek the creator while He may yet be found, the Lord is His name. In finding Him He will grant you wisdom and salvation and through Him your glory shall be as the stars for ever and ever, Amen.

Obadiah 1:4 Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.

Houston, the Eagle has landed.


Matthew 10:
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


He know us intimatly and our every action is seen even in the greatness of all creation.

Allcare

Tony H2o

G'Day Tony :D


I have a question for you (I'm not trying to be a smart arse), ok if God really created the whole universe and indeed instructed/wrote the bible through his subjects....how is that the church wasn't aware of the nature of the universe until science pointed it out to be fact. I mean the idea that the earth was not the centre of the universe had Coprenicus (I know I spelt that wrong :( ) being hunted by the CHURCH for witchcraft. These people who apparently had a document of what their lord had created didn't have a clue as to what the universe was let alone their own corner of it....


Also wouldn't Jesus have been aware of the true nature of our solar system or Galaxy or Universe. Wouldn't he as a teacher set these incorrect views of Gods universe straight?



[This message has been edited by Rambler (edited April 03, 2000).]

Hi Ram Man,

Who says these views are incorrect?

mmmmmmm......For a different perspective take a look at this site:

[URL=http://www.biblicalastronomer.org/.html]


(I hope that worked)

I'm not saying I agree 100% or understand all the tecno stuff 100% but it is interesting none the less.

So is the Bible right or wrong?

Heliocentrism or Geocentricity?

As for what Jesus taught....well I could find no direct reference to the sciences. But I do know that His focus was on carrying out the will of the Father, showing the Fathers heart, nature and character to a lost and dying world. Not on teaching physics or astronomy or whatever to a group of people who had no understanding and possibly little or no interest in these matters.

Again it comes down to a question of where we place our faith and what proofs we demand to substantiate or beliefs.

Me, being a rather naive believer would rather have the love and faith of a child than an understanding of the deepest knowledge. Besides I don't have Boris's grey matter horsepower or time to evaluate everything there is to evaluate, man if I had to wait for that to happen to be a believer I'd be lost for eternity. :D


1Cor 13:
1 If I make use of the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am like sounding brass, or a loud-tongued bell.
2 And if I have a prophet's power, and have knowledge of all secret things; and if I have all faith, by which mountains may be moved from their place, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my goods to the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it is of no profit to me.
4 Love is never tired of waiting; love is kind; love has no envy; love has no high opinion of itself, love has no pride;
5 Love's ways are ever fair, it takes no thought for itself; it is not quickly made angry, it takes no account of evil;
6 It takes no pleasure in wrongdoing, but has joy in what is true;
7 Love has the power of undergoing all things, having faith in all things, hoping all things.
8 Though the prophet's word may come to an end, tongues come to nothing, and knowledge have no more value, love has no end.
9 For our knowledge is only in part, and the prophet's word gives only a part of what is true:
10 But when that which is complete is come, then that which is in part will be no longer necessary.
11 When I was a child, I made use of a child's language, I had a child's feelings and a child's thoughts: now that I am a man, I have put away the things of a child.
12 For now we see things in a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now my knowledge is in part; then it will be complete, even as God's knowledge of me.
13 But now we still have faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Hope this helps.

Allcare

Tony H2o

[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited April 03, 2000).]

AUSSI, AUSSI, AUSSI
Oi, Oi, Oi.

:D

H2o

Uh, might I point out that the Bible isn't a science text book, nor should it be?? Why would the Bible go into where the physical center of the universe is, or physical laws? It's not meant to. It's actually extrememly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things if you ask me. It's like, you take the Bible and all of it's spiritual truth; it tells us everything we NEED to know regarding what our purpose is here, and how to accomplish it, and you're complaining cause it's not a science textbook? What? :confused:

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

I think the point that was trying to be made here, was a comparison of "wisdom" gained through "God", to wisdom gained through objectivity. The appalling part of the whole geocentrism fiasco is not that the Church was ignorant of physics; the point is that despite all of their alleged communion with God, they managed to so consistently and egregiously err for centuries on end! And not only that; they insisted upon declaring objective truth to be herecy, and downright refused to verify the quite verifiable observations themselves. This is a classical pattern in any deeply religious individual or organization -- a complete mental blockage of (and often a violent reaction to) any and all evidence counter to the religious "truth". All of which are classical symptoms of brainwashing -- which I believe was the point trying to be made.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Hi guys,
Boris is right that is the point I would have made....eventually (probably not as well or as clearly -- so thanks Boris :) ), I am inclinded to ask these kinds of questions. They probably seem nieve or trivial but its the kind of stuff that makes little sense to me and part of the reason I struggle with the teachings, and indeed reject them. I wanted to know how people who have a christian faith explain it to themselves. Thanks guys....I'm still at a loss but I believe I'm getting closer to an answer (at least for a little while).

Tony (read around this guys...more aus. politics)

Did you hear ols mate Johny rant in parliment yesterday. He nearly popped a blood vessel...anyway he's yelling at the top of his lungs and to quote him it was:

"I care about the indigenous people of this country as much as I care about any other Australian".....this was in regard to the reconciliation process. So you got straight from the horses mouth Johny couldn't give a toss about anybody in this country...

Hi guys and gals,

Thanks all for taking the time to comment etc.

Ram Man, sorry I can't fully answer your questions on why the "church" burned people for insisting that the Earth was round. (I dunno that flat Earth society has a lot to answer for.) And I would have to agree with Boris that far to often we believe what we choose to believe based on superstition and guess work. But knowing all this and that people are people and will on occasion make the facts fit their perception of the truth (and believe me the scientific community is not devoid of doing the same), even knowing that I may at times fall into that crowd does not shake my confidence or conviction in that which I have experienced and know or in the fact that God has shown His face to mankind through the Bible and the life of Jesus. Hey I may not know how to scientifically qualify or quantify it, I may not know how to even describe it adequately in words but I do know the reality of it.

I guess that what I was trying to communicate without going into tremendous and infinite details was the majesty of God, the size of who He is, the power He has. Trying to give another glimpse of His character and nature and how it was personified in Jesus the Messiah.

I only wish I had more time to discuss scientific merit with people like Boris, yourself and others. I'm not saying that everything I believe would be right I'm just saying it would be interesting to have the time to think things through a bit more deeply and discuss in a rational and friendly manner with others who may not be like minded. I find that type of thing very useful in that it sorts the trash and refine my understanding. But like I said last time if I had to wait until I'd scientifically debated and proven or disproved God to believe I'd be six foot under and still none the wiser. So for me knowing what I know, seeing what I have seen, and having a living relationship with God its not hard to believe even in the face of opposition.

Anyways all thanks again, I didn't post this up to become a debate about the center of the universe. It was more a case of me trying in my futile way to express and convey things about who God is to others.

As I said in the intro, "Spaced out by outer space"...... Blown away by God!

Trying to contemplate the size of the universe is enough to make your head spin. Try to contemplate a God who holds it in His hand and created it with the words He spoke.....well that's just plain mind blowing, grey matter overload yet my heart knows Him.

Sorry if I blurred the picture these things can look fuzzy at the best of times without my aimless verbal meandering.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Try again,

http://www.biblicalastronomer.org/.html (http://www.biblicalastronomer.org/)

And again
[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited April 03, 2000).]

And again
[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited April 03, 2000).]

And Again
[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited April 03, 2000).]

Once more.

YES!! :D

[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited April 03, 2000).]

Boris, Tiassa, and anyone else to whom this concerns......

Please someone explain to me why in the world you keep looking for the people in organized religion to be perfect? Why? It doesn't make any sense. Are you aware of that? I keep saying it over and over and over, and you guys keep insisting that if church members aren't perfect, then Jesus isn't real or the Son of God. I mean listen to that arguement for a minute. You guys are SUPPOSED to be intelligent right? Then why do you keep making this totally nonsensical arguement???????? Why? Please stop it, you're making my head hurt. If you want to know what Christianity is about, then get to know Jesus, and quit trying to find Him in some other person, or in some rhetoric, or in some organization. Just please, please stop it, IT'S FUTILE!!!!!!!

Would someone just please explain to me why it is that given this bit of information taken straight out of the Bible...."All men are sinners and there's no fix ever until you die. Going to church doesn't fix you. You don't understand the difference between right and wrong so quit trying and leave it up to God." Ok, given that, why oh why oh why oh why would you look for validation of the faith and it's truth in a bunch of people that don't even know what it's about? Listen, I'm not saying that all the people that go to church are ignorant of their own faith either. You guys see and hear all of the "famous" church people that get their hair spray all over our televisions. What about the Christians who aren't interested in fame and self-glorification? What about the Christians that run shelters for battered women, and help get prostitutes off the streets, and help get kids off of drugs, or take care of pregnant teens when their "church people" parents kick them out of the house, or a family that I saw on the news that adopted 10, yes 10, kids from the same family that had been abused and neglected for years? You try to argue that the Christian faith leads people to do bad things, and it's simply not true. The Christian faith EXPLAINS WHY people do bad things, and explains that everyone does, and that's just the way it is, hence the need for salvation in Christ, the only Saviour, and the only help out there. But there is nothing, no not one thing, in the Bible and in the Gospel, that would tell a person to do something bad or hurtful or egotistical or sinful. The fact that people use the Bible and twist it's teachings around to serve their own greed or ego or hunger for power isn't surprising to me, why is it to you? It simply makes sense, given what I know about humans, and what it tells about us in the Word of God. I'm sorry, but the fact that people sin, even in the church, is PROOF that the Bible is 100% true. Period. There is no other arguement, so give it up already with the nonsense please. :)

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori--

To be honest, I'm quite sure that nothing I say in this post will move you any closer to the answer to the question that I think you've asked. But, we can always hope for progress.

....and you guys keep insisting that if church members aren't perfect, then Jesus isn't real or the Son of God.

On one hand, this is your own assumption; the debauchery and hatred permeating the contemporary church culture speaks very little of the fact that Jesus is only a son of God, as we all are children of God. To the other, if the contemporary shambles of church culture are what it takes to demonstrate to someone that Jesus is not the son of God, then it's for the best, because religion and faith have become so damagingly intertwined for the individual. In other words, your summary of what other people insist is wrong. If you would, please, tell us who and where or when that was said, and I dare you not to botch the context. ;)

Please stop it, you're making my head hurt. If you want to know what Christianity is about, then get to know Jesus, and quit trying to find Him in some other person, or in some rhetoric, or in some organization. Just please, please stop it, IT'S FUTILE!!!!!!!

Okay ... A) It's not anyone's problem that your head hurts but your own. I understand that you've been working very hard to wrap your brain around some of these ideas, but I feel that I need to give you a hint: Flexibility helps.

I'm wondering, though, what it is that makes you think you can continue to encourage people to go out and find ideas that they're already familiar with, if not intimately so. Get to know Jesus, get to know Jesus .... Come on, Lori ... in all your years of hard, diligent study, did you ever, once "get to know" the gods you studied, so that the tendrils of Christian faith slipped completely away, and you could, as an individual, work within the assumed Buddhist/Muslim/Wiccan/&c. framework without actively hedging in comparison to your Christian experience? I'm also curious about what you expect to happen when someone "gets to know" Jesus. For many people, if it's anything like the last time they got to know Jesus, they'll still choose to forego.

Would someone just please explain to me why it is that given this bit of information taken straight out of the Bible...."All men are sinners and there's no fix ever until you die. Going to church doesn't fix you. You don't understand the difference between right and wrong so quit trying and leave it up to God."

Allow me to reiterate your words ... straight out of the Bible. Feel like backing that up?

Furthermore, didn't you disagree with a bit from Piers Plowman that said, essentially, the same thing?

The text to which I refer: "If you want to know why God allowed the Devil to lead us astray, or if you wish to fathom the purposes of God Almighty, then your eyes ought to be in your arse. Everything happens as God chooses, and thank God it will continue to, worry over it though we may."

Your response: Well, I DO NOT agree with whatever source you're citing up there.

Reconcile that, please? Your credibility is slipping on these counts.

Next: What about the Christians who aren't interested in fame and self-glorification?

What about them? They seem perfectly wrapped up in themselves, don't they? Do they not have a duty to defend their God against the heretics and blasphemers who would sully it in the name of His glory? Or do we simply say, "House is warm, kids are fed, I resisted temptation today. God's happy." Christianity is not so entirely about the self as the modern practice--for better or worse--would seem to indicate.

What about the Christians that run shelters for battered women, and help get prostitutes off the streets, and help get kids off of drugs, or take care of pregnant teens when their "church people" parents kick them out of the house, or a family that I saw on the news that adopted 10, yes 10, kids from the same family that had been abused and neglected for years?

Again, what about them? Some of them are still evil, nasty people ... this we know. Of the rest, there is that malaise that seems to apply when Christians fail to examine each others' faiths. I mean, if you want to talk about pregnant teens, I would ask that you read the history of the murder of Dr. David Gunn ... the shooter worked for a family whose job it was to "save" pregnant teens. The conditions of the facility speak much of the shooter. On a broader level, though, so what? Maybe they do offer shelters, drug rehab, and other services. But is the take on these things right? I mean, if you have to lie to people (drugs), what good does it do for a person to grow up and perpetuate the lies that foster the policies that incite the breakdown of morale and morality within a society. As to the pregnant teens themselves ... don't you think that if "church" society was worth a rat's behind, we might see less pregnancies coming from "church family" teens? (In this case, "church culture" has been a travesty for human sexuality in general.) Also, I knew a man whose family took in kids from wrecked families--"OPK" was the designation, Other People's Kids. Christian, attorney, civilly upstanding ... except for his fetish for raping children, which was empowered by "church" faith--even defended by it at one point. Oh, but this is just one more person, an individual who apparently doesn't matter to the final sum of what God's word equals.

So I'll take a moment and try to accentuate a specific point: We know that there are "bad" people, as such, within "church" culture and faith; what really sucks about it, is that so many individuals conduct themselves in a manner as to imply that as long as the specific individual believes themselves in harmony with God, there is no need to address the recurring tragedies of church faith and culture.

The Christian faith EXPLAINS WHY people do bad things, and explains that everyone does, and that's just the way it is, hence the need for salvation in Christ, the only Saviour, and the only help out there.

Okay, Lori ... WHY? Sin? Fine, what is sin, and where does it come from (directly or in its abstract). And I will ask the what, where, and why, of any answer that leaves the Bad Things unaccounted for.

But there is nothing, no not one thing, in the Bible and in the Gospel, that would tell a person to do something bad or hurtful or egotistical or sinful.

You're right. Because if it's in the Bible, it's from God. And anyone who chooses to feel hurt by God is a horrible sinner who isn't right with God and will burn in Hell. So anything in the Bible that seems bad, hurtful, egotistical, or sinful, is fine and dandy with God ...? You're going to have to argue more supportable claim in the future.

The fact that people use the Bible and twist it's teachings around to serve their own greed or ego or hunger for power isn't surprising to me, why is it to you?

It's not. But what does surprise me is that individual Christians are content to allow this continuing defilement of the image of God. As a matter of fact, when given the opportunity to speak en masse, individual Christians seem to reaffirm with their votes and their mass voice that they enjoy the hypocrisy, the scandal, the chaos. (My God loves me, so I can shut my eyes to that sin which is somehow justified by my loving God.)

I'm sorry, but the fact that people sin, even in the church, is PROOF that the Bible is 100% true. Period. There is no other arguement, so give it up already with the nonsense please.

Ha.
Haha.
Haha. Ha.
Hahahahahahahahahah!

LOL, squirm with delight. You're damn funny when you want to be, Lori. See, that's how we know when you're joking ... when you say stuff like that. Otherwise it's really hard to tell.

Thank you, though, for being such a good sport, and demonstrating the true nature of faith. ;)

guh-rinning :D
Tiassa

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The whole business with the fossilized dinosaur eggs was a joke the paleontologists haven't seen yet. (Good Omens, Gaiman & Pratchett)

Lori,

Tiassa already discussed quite a few points, including the sheepish acceptance by Christians of all the bullshit that floats on top of their religion (and one might even say Christians are not unique in that regard.) But I feel like adding a few more, for good measure.

You grotesquely misstate my argument when you claim that I ask the religious establishment to be perfect. First of all, my criticism is not directed at the establishment; the witch hunts and the forceful perpetuation of falsehoods were not carried out by organized religion alone. This nightmare lived in every religious household, and was nurtured by the deeply religious ordinary folks (and in many places it still is.) Secondly, I am not arguing that the Bible is false because Christians are no better than any other people; what I've shown, and you all but reiterated, is that in fact Christians are no better than any other people -- and in fact, oftentimes they are much worse. Which does take quite a bit of wind out of those "join us and be righteous" mantras. As a matter of fact, my claim is that the world would have been no worse a place, and in all likelihood an even better place, if there never was any Christianity (nor any other religion) to begin with. And finally, somehow you must have missed the overriding point of my post, with which I concluded that religion is nothing more or less than mere brainwashing. Now where's perfectionism in that?

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Originally posted by Boris:
Lori,
Tiassa already discussed quite a few points, including the sheepish acceptance by Christians of all the bullshit that floats on top of their religion (and one might even say Christians are not unique in that regard.) But I feel like adding a few more, for good measure.


Boris, I thought that you were a little bit to generalistic in you taring us all with the same brush on the flotation issue. :D


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Boris:
You grotesquely misstate my argument when you claim that I ask the religious establishment to be perfect. First of all, my criticism is not directed at the establishment; the witch hunts and the forceful perpetuation of falsehoods were not carried out by organized religion alone. This nightmare lived in every religious household, and was nurtured by the deeply religious ordinary folks (and in many places it still is.) Secondly, I am not arguing that the Bible is false because Christians are no better than any other people; what I've shown, and you all but reiterated, is that in fact Christians are no better than any other people -- and in fact, oftentimes they are much worse. Which does take quite a bit of wind out of those "join us and be righteous" mantras. As a matter of fact, my claim is that the world would have been no worse a place, and in all likelihood an even better place, if there never was any Christianity (nor any other religion) to begin with. And finally, somehow you must have missed the
overriding point of my post, with which I concluded that religion is nothing more or less than mere brainwashing. Now where's perfectionism in that?


Boris, who has hurt you so deeply that you feel such anger towards Christians in general? Is it the historical accounts of atrocities? Is it atrocities committed against you as a person? Is it the pure science that you preach? What is it Boris? Why such an anger against people who hold a separate and different belief system than you? Are we not enlightened enough by science? Do you consider us all fools because we "blindly believe"? Or is it a pent up frustration in that you would like to believe also but find it frustrating that your deepest scientific arguments you place here get hollow answers? Is there no one to convince you of the reality of God beyond their superstitions, their own experiences, their subjective views?

Who or what has hurt you so that you make it a quest almost to pursue Christians and their beliefs?

I'm sorry about the questions mate but this seems rather out of character for you. You normally turn up with a rational argument based on said facts with a pointed conclusion. You don't generally spit it in this manner which causes me a bit of concern. What you have stated above goes beyond a scientific approach against us who believe and shows your some deeper thoughts and feelings towards those who would differ in opinion to you.

Hey if you want to talk about anything or even spit it at me for getting to personal then feel free to do so by email.

I am truly saddened to see you reacting in this manner, it shows a deeper cut that you nurse.

Please feel free to lash out in response. :D

That was me trying to make you smile :D

See, I did it again.

All care

Tony H2o

Hi guys and gals :)

Ok what happens if a christain goes through their entire life sinning away as we all do, and NEVER asks for forgivness....well the poor soul ends up in hell. That very same person is behaving in a way that they were CREATED....the flaw is part of them a part given to them by God. So at the end of the day we poor humans are being punished for the way we we're made. Would you beat a child for having a genetic disorder. You'd say no way thats just incomprehendable...yet christain religion seems to advocate it and pass it off as moral behaviour. I mean if you beat that child you'd be doing no less then christains allow their faith/god to do to them.....where is the morality. And yet another way of looking at it is as follows: If god created us as sinners and we must then beg him for forgivness our entire lives then what is the purpose? is god that insecure? are we here to give him an ego trip? Or what about this: free will is a gift from God but if you exercise that gift in any way you sin, and if you sin and remain unrepentant then off to hell with you.....The further i look the more it seems that christanity is a model of evil and twisted human short comings, there's nothing devine or holy about it. No wonder god turned his back on this place his own church is the epitomy of the evils his son died for. I reject christanity because I can't live with so many fundamental contradictions. I don't believe that these contradictions come from God, they are the result of 2000+ years of human coruption. So Lori as much as it frustrates you to hear these arguments you must accept that it frustrates me to be told I'm a sinner and I must save myself in Christ. I believe theres more to us then just mere tools to massage Gods ego.

Tony,

Well, you did make me smile. :) And don't get the impression that I'm somehow pissed off or miserable, because I'm neither. Actually, I'm rather good-spirited most of the time, and today was no exception. You're right, perhaps I did overgeneralize on the "flotation issue" :D -- I should have said "mainstream Christians" instead of just "Christians", since that's what I had in mind (my bad for not being more precise that time). And no, I don't hate Christians in general -- at least no more than I hate members of any other religion; my general reproach is for religion as a whole -- but it is less a matter of hate than it is of an allergic reaction of sorts. You see, bullshit puts a bad taste in my mouth; and I especially can't stand it when it flows from people who could have otherwise been rational. I am becoming ever more convinced that most of the ills and tragedies in this world occur because people simply don't think enough, and especially don't think enough objectively. It irks me to see people languish through their lives in a semi-vegetative state, like cattle in a herd. Naturally, bullshit is not the cause of cattle, it is merely the consequence -- but if someone doesn't teach the herd to detest it, they will keep trudging right on through the thickest of it. And no, I don't generally dismiss all religious individuals as fools; rather, I see religion as a part of the pattern in perpetuation of the state of mental slumber in the society at large -- and my references to the past only serve to illustrate that point (just the fact alone that the Dark Ages were the golden age of Christianity is rather telling of the environments fertile to religion, and of religion's failure to improve such environments).

Irrationality, knee-jerk responses, and reactionary thinking have always been and are pervasive in any religious domain. And I indeed do have a problem when people "blindly believe" -- because that's a poignant symptom of the above. I have an even greater problem when people regurgitate clear nonsense they heard from someone else in defense of their mental status quo. And I have an ultimate problem when people actually come up with original nonsense of their own (showing their intelligence, and at the same time grotesquely misapplying it!), all in an effort to resist a major paradigm shift.

I don't believe that objectivity is just for scientists, and I don't believe that science is just for scientists either. The only way we learn and grow, is through interaction with our environment, and science is the ultimate expression of that process. Many people want to know what things are or how things work; yet they never bother to actually find out for real. The currently prevalent attitudes toward technical higher education and self-education are atrocious, and I'm pretty sure that they are mutually-reinforcing with religion. Hence, my anti-religious stance. This is not something new from me, nor something sporadic; I've been harping this tune since day 1, just ask Lori :)

I'll leave you with a little allegory (thank Plato the anscient Greek for that one, though I did embellish and paraphrase a bit here and there.) Imagine a subterranean cave, with one of its walls flat and vertical. In front of the wall, and facing it, are chained to the rock, in dark encasing niches, in a fixed position, a number of people. They've been chained there ever since birth. Behind them burns a bright bonfire, illuminating everything in the cave. All they ever observed, however, was the wall's surface -- and the dark shapes appearing and moving on it (though they can also talk to each other). The shapes on the wall are silhouettes of other people who can quietly walk on an elevated bridge behind the backs of the chained cavemen; the silhouettes are cast by the bonfire. The cavemen will eventually learn the types of shapes they see, and how they tend to move. They will even form some kind of a grand explanation for everything, including their very existence. But now imagine that one of them wakes up standing on the bridge unshackled one day. Overcoming the initial terror and confusion, this person (call him Ray) turns about from the Eternal Wall of Life and is blinded by the bonfire. However, when his eyes adjust he observes something he's never seen before -- a point source of light. Now, he notices other people like him walking about on the bridge, and he discovers a marvellous correspondence between their movements and shapes, and the dancing black shadows on the Wall. He makes some movements, and observes that a shape of his own is dancing in synchrony on the wall. He looks at the bonfire through his hand, and finds that the light is being blocked. Suddenly, he understands. Nudged by his insight, he becomes curious as to where these people on the bridge are coming from, and where they are going. He follows one of them across the bridge and down a dark tunnel, to a glowing opening. He emerges on the surface, and falls to the ground screaming in pain, as his eyes are incapable of handling the sunlight. After a few torturous days, he can finally begin to see, and what he finds is a whole new and wondrous world. He discovers the sun, and the sky, and the clowds, and day and night, and the stars and the moon, and the wind, the birds, the animals, the grass, the bushes, the trees -- he is overwhelmed and astonished, and spends years on the surface wondering through this great new reality. He learns a great many things, and understands that the world is much greater and far more complicated than he ever imagined. And he can no longer accept the Eternal Wall of Life as the cornerstone of reality. At that realization, Ray suddenly recalls his poor comrades in the cave. My oh my, he has been revelling in all these newfound marvels, and all the while they had been languishing in that dank darkness. Overcome with guilt and excitement, he flies back through the underground passage, stops on the bridge, and exclaims his presense to his comrades. They are quite alarmed and surprised, for they figured him dead; but upon recognizing his voice and manner of speach, they are satisfied in his presense, and inquire to know what happened. He tells them a tale of all his adventures, and everything he's learned. When he finally finishes, they reply with a squall of laughter. You see, his explanations are ridiculous and outlandish, and his tale a sheer fabrication. Moreover, they get concerned for him, since with his herecy, he has marginalized, trivialized, and otherwise defiled the Great Wall and everything it stands for. He tries to argue with them, and even explain to them how the dark shapes on the wall are made, but they don't understand, and they don't want to. He tells them that he can affect those shapes, and he does a few shadow figures for them; they are impressed with his newfound ability to predict what will happen on the wall, but they do not accept his explanation of it. Frustrated, Ray offers to unshackle them and let them see for themselves. But they are horrified at the idea, as it would violate their way of life, and will be a mutiny against everything they believe in. Speechless, Ray leaves the cave never to return again. He spends the rest of his life happily in the real world. Meanwhile, the cavemen mull over everything they've heard, and decide that the voice was not Ray after all; it was an evil power trying to lead them astray from the holy Wall of Life. Thus satisfied, they live out the rest of their lives shackled and comfy in their dark musty niches.

[edited to correct a couple of spelling errors...]

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited April 05, 2000).]

Boris,
I had a buddhist explain nirvana to me with a variation of that story. Basically the chained ones were ordinary people, and once enlightened they were able to turn and see the world for what it really is. I thought he came up with the story...now I know he didn't but its a great story and i guess if a christain told it then the wall would be the material world and everything behind these people would be the kingdom of heaven.

Hi Ram Man,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rambler:
[B]Hi guys and gals :)

Ok what happens if a christain goes through their entire life sinning away as we all do, and NEVER asks for forgivness....well the poor soul ends up in hell.


Well Ram if that person was really truly a follower of Christ they would find that His love motivates them to sin no more. That is to repent or turn from wrongful ways, now as far as being perfect goes and sinless we are still a mile away because we don't see the error of our own ways. We do see apparent things and change them but it takes a while for God to work His nature and character into our lives.


Quote:
That very same person is behaving in a way that they were CREATED....the flaw is part of them a part given to them by God. So at the end of the day we poor humans are being punished for the way we we're made.


Well not quite, we were not made as a sinful creation. We gave sin authority over us and generations that followed at the fall. Since then we have been born into sin which is what separates us from God and distorts our character and nature. God's not dumb and He will not punish someone who is ignorant of these things. Also He could not allow the situation of sin be a reason for man to live without Him so throughout the bible OT we have sacrifice of animals as an atonement or blood covering for the sin. This was put in place to signify that one day the Messiah, Jesus would shed His blood for the sins of humanity and thereby offer a means of continual covering for a race born into sin. It would also act as a means by which we could be restored to the Father and take on His Character again.


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And yet another way of looking at it is as follows: If god created us as sinners and we must then beg him for forgiveness our entire lives then what is the purpose? is god that insecure? are we here to give him an ego trip? Or what about this: free will is a gift from God but if you exercise that gift in any way you sin, and if you sin and remain unrepentant then off to hell with you.....


Again we were not created for sin but for fellowship and communion with the God of all creation. With regards to the free will thing it may help to read Stretch's "Dark side of town" post. We don't need to beg God to be forgiven, Salvation is a gift from Him. Its a gift given in love by the death of Gods Son so that no one should perish but that all should come to know Him. Once that hits your heart, the fact that I am a sinner and that no matter what I do there is no way that I can escape it or the consequence of it apart from the acceptance of the gift of life from the Son of God. Once that hits your heart you start seeing things in a different light, you know its futile to try to make it on your own. Its a free gift you either accept it or reject it, when you accept it though then God moves in with you and your heart changes, you fall in love with Him and because you love Him and want to serve Him you obey Him and His words and teachings. Its a difficult thing to explain what happens, but it does happen
.

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The further I look the more it seems that christanity is a model of evil and twisted human short comings, there's nothing devine or holy about it.


Yes there has been and will continue to be a lot of things done in the name of God that does nothing short of slander His name and cause many harm and hurt. I would not have said Christianity specifically but maybe would have used the word religion. But that's nit picking and I see what you mean.


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No wonder god turned his back on this place his own church is the epitomy of the evils his son died for. I reject christanity because I can't live with so many fundamental contradictions. I don't believe that these contradictions come from God, they are the result of 2000+ years of human coruption.


Sorry I think I just frustrated you by telling you your a sinner and must be saved in Christ. But hey you know how I know that? Because I'm like you.

Seriously I don't think your rejecting Christ but more so the religions that have leached onto a message of truth for their own gain and prosperity.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Boris,

Thanks for the response, great story old chap but I think Ram got it when he said it could be used by anyone to illustrate their stance or views. And gee I thought there was nothing more to life than the wall :D

Also thanks for not getting bent outta shape about my post, I'm glad you saw the concern rather than viewing it as an attack.

So from now on you guys can call me Ray the unshackled cave man, as I have truly seen the light.

And Boris you can be RaySquared with the light of science.

And Ram you can be RayDos with the light of IT. No......that wont work will it? IT are always in the dark about everything :D

And Lori you can be Rayetta or Raylene with the light of eternal hope.

And Tiassa how could we forget you? You can be the most eloquent Raymond with the light of literature.

OK everyone let them lights shine :D

Hey Ram we'll find you a better light OK...

Allcare

Tony H2o

Your absolutley right Tony, I'm not rejecting Christ well God would probably be more true. I am however rejecting christianity, as in the religion, the scriptures, the teachings etc. At one time there may have been a truth there but as things stand today non of it is acceptable to me. All I see is a feeble human ideal of perfection that has morphed into a political institution which still hides its adgenda behind a crusifix. If god speaks to me then its through my conscience, and if my conscience is clear then I believe that I am doing everything that has been asked of me. So to reiterate I do have a place in me for god I just have no time for the joke that names itself after him and I don't just mean the church.

I'll try to illustrate my point of view with an analogy (very broad sense of the word) of sorts. If I came on here and started raving on about fascism. And said its the greatest thing ever if you align yourself with it and the ideal's of the Nazi's your life will be SOOOO much better for it. I'm sure that everyone here would jump on my back and point out the crimes and atrocities that this way of thinking leads to. I would be judged for the actions of Hitler and his mates (rightly so). Now lets look at christainity. This philosphy has cost many more lives then the Nazi's could have ever hoped to extinguish, and yet people choose to align themselves with it, defend it and infact get a sense of rightousness. If I had a dollar for every christain that has asked me to stop judging them for the crimes of people in the past.....well I'm sorry but just because they didn't light the fire doesn't make their aliance right.

Ram,

Your stance saddens me although I do see where you are coming from. Your analogy is quite pointed and true and probably reflects Boris's view also. So many atrocities, so may crimes committed and still being committed as we speak.

So I sit here typing and wondering how do I convey to you who Jesus really is? How do I cut through all the religion, all the trauma and atrocities? How do I show you the Love of God is real? That the words of Jesus are just as applicable today as 2000 years ago?

I don't know how to do this Ram Man, fortunately or otherwise I didn't have the same problem you do in that I had a face to face with God. So even though I may doubt certain things on occasion I know that I know He is real. So how come He showed up for me? Was and is my hearts cry for the truth louder than yours or Boris's or Flash's or anyone else's? All I know Ram is that there is truth and life and love in the teachings and words of Jesus, truths that have been manipulated and twisted by the bent minds of men and women throughout history for their own gain and empires. I am at a loss as to how to let my hearts cry for people to know Him the way I do become a reality.

I can not convince people with words, I can not completely describe or verbalise what I have seen, I can not perform a miracle or sign to persuade them, I can not argue from a position of power regarding the sciences and offer up proofs........

All I can do is ask people to try for a moment to put aside all that dictates their views, pick up a Bible and read for yourself the Gospels and the words of Jesus. I can't lead you or force you or others but I can say that if you truly want to understand and know Him then that is a step in the right direction.

Jesus said His words would divide, He said they would come between family members, He probably even knew that they would be twisted and contorted by man and that wars would be fought over them and innocent lives destroyed because of them. Because we so often choose to see what we want rather than what God meant.

Sorry man gotta go, at the risk of using a cheap analogy:

"Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"

There's more to it than what we see......

Allcare

Tony H2o

Thanks for your patients Tony. I probably come off sounding pretty harsh but I guess the only thing I'm really searching for is an answer that DOESN'T create a conflict with in ME. Like I said I know there's an empty space in me and it's there for a reason but I can't make a square peg fit a round hole....so I guess at the moment and for the millionth time in my life I'm looking for the round peg again. I remember not that long ago when I needed a different kind of emptiness filled, so I searched and I asked and I waited patiently. Finaly I met her and my emptiness was filled. She has managed to complete me, at the time it really seemed like I'd been blessed. I know there's a whole different dimension to this world but it sickens me to think that people are seeing it through the tainted windows and experiencing it with the shackles of christianity. I have read the bible (I had 12 years of catholic education) and when I weigh it up in my mind it always comes back with the same result....christanity is a thorn in the side of morality, and a disservice to god. Sorry but I just can't make it fit.

Originally posted by Rambler:


christanity is a thorn in the side of morality, and a disservice to god. Sorry but I just can't make it fit.


Christianity or Catholic faith? I would feel the same if someone was trying to ram hail Mary's down my throat and telling me constantly that I need to do pennance or confession or whatever.

The words of Jesus bring life, love, freedom and encouragement, the religion of men brings bondage into rituals.


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I guess the only thing I'm really searching for is an answer that DOESN'T create a conflict with in ME. Like I said I know there's an empty space in me and it's there for a reason but I can't make a square peg fit a round hole....

Sorry buddy, you'll never find it. My faith causes the most major conflict within me. The things I should do I don't do, and the things I don't do I should do. Woe to me who will rescue me from the wretch that I am? Thanks be to God for Jesus, my deliverence. Its a constant battle to stick with it, a constant fight to find the real pearl of great prize amongst such an ocean full of oysters.


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so I guess at the moment and for the millionth time in my life I'm looking for the round peg again. I remember not that long ago when I needed a different kind of emptiness filled, so I searched and I asked and I waited patiently. Finaly I met her and my emptiness was filled. She has managed to complete me, at the time it really seemed like I'd been blessed.


Well at least your big enough to admit you got a hole. Shame about the shape problem, but don't stress the Holy Spirit can fill any shaped hole with God's love. Also nice to see someone who feels complete with their partner, very refreshing indeed.


I know there's a whole different dimension to this world but it sickens me to think that people are seeing it through the tainted windows and experiencing it with the shackles of christianity. I have read the bible (I had 12 years of catholic education) and when I weigh it up in my mind it always comes back with the same result....christanity is a thorn in the side of morality, and a disservice to god. Sorry but I just can't make it fit.

Looking through rose coloured stained glass windows, but never allowing the light of God to come in.

Christianity I would interpret as you meaning in the broad sense religion is a disservice to God, but being a disciple of Christ.....well that's a whole different kettle of fish.

All care

Tony H2o

Rambler, Tony,

I knew someone'd pick up on that; allegories are such double-edged swords, aren't they? :D

I suppose the difference here is that in my version the cavemen only had to perform a series of simple, straightforward physical acts to discover the intersubjective, irrefutable truth; if a Buddhist or a Christian was telling it, the cavemen would have had to make some supernatural leap to arrive at some very subjective and unverifiable "truth". But anyway, I agree it's a great story, and there is enough depth and analogies in it to provide hours worth of food for thought.

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I am; therefore I think.