Space as the crucible of new Human species

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Xylene, Jul 3, 2009.

  1. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    I'm going to talk about something that I've been thinking about for a while, and have written about in some of my sci-fi stories.

    Everybody knows that Mars and Venus both have different surface gravities from Earth, because of their lesser masses. Mars has ca. 37% of Earth's gravity, and Venus has ca. 90%. This means that if you reach your full Earth height, say 6 feet, then you're 37% of your potential height on Mars and 90% of your potential height on Venus.

    Because the surface gravity value (sgv) for Venus is so similar to that of Earth, it's possible that people born on Venus will be able to return to Earth to live if they so choose, though life would be more than slightly physically uncomfortable for them.

    However, those people who are born on Mars would have to stay there, unless they eventually develop suits that could artificially support their bodies. Obviously, muscles that have developed to cater for the much lighter gravity of Mars will be absolutely hopeless for dealing with the more intense gravity of Earth; a person born on Mars will almost three times what they do at home, and they will know about that in the worst way when they visit Old Earth.

    The same problem applies to every other planet in the Galaxy--wherever we spread in space over the coming millennia, we will almost certainly never run into the same sgv as Earth on any other planet. The implication is that the Human race ultimately becomes a vast family of different species--not only because we'll be mixing fairly freely with any other races we find out there among the stars, but also because we'll be changing bodily with each new sgv and phsyical environment we encounter.
     
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  3. baftan ******* Valued Senior Member

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    No argue on that. Yet different species would mean different opportunities only if we modify our understanding of humanity according to this direction. If we redefine humanity as ,let us say, a knowledge based entity, we would emancipate our understanding from species centric view. Today we appreciate the life of different species and we learn from them. In galactic level, all humans or human origin creatures would benefit different species of humans and their experience of universe.

    Our bodies are the assets that we are using to survive, and our minds are creating different tools to enrich the survival possibilities. In galactic level, we could be just an adaptable softwares who use various physical assets to exist. No matter what these new species would turn into, as long as they have a conscious minds, they will be able to follow their roots to this planet. It is going to be a live museum if we do not destroy it during the process...
     
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  5. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    Well, I'm looking a thousand or more years ahead in time, when we've spread all over the Galaxy and have mixed with every sentient race we encounter out there. In many ways it will be a Renaisssence of the human spirit, in that we're going to be learning a tremendous amount from all these other folk, and expanding our knowledge-base exponentially.

    In terms of the physical change that will inevitably occur over the coming centuries, all those new species of humanity will have their memories of ancient Earth as a solid mental anchor, even when the original home planet recedes into the mists of legend and tall tale. So in that sense I agree, they will ultimately be a vast and spreading tree with very deep roots, which they will be able to follow back into the deep past, to the old soil of their first home...and I pray that you're right, and we don't obliterate ourselves before we flee finally from this madhouse world.
     
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  7. baftan ******* Valued Senior Member

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    We dream, we spread the dream, we believe in it and we do. There is no any other way to get out of any kind of restrictions in front of our species. No Gods, no aliens or no any other mumbo jumbo; currently we are the ultimate and only source for our next level of evolution. If we multiply and diversify our existence we will have a better chance than single-minded and single-shaped species. We do not have to define this or that particular shape of species as humans: Instead we should transfer our possibilities over different options, we must turn our physical existence into a kind of natural code like DNA; so we could use or create a longer existence through various shapes. Behind the shapes ,and even with the help of all richness of shapes, models, species, artificial mechanisms, we can accumulate and share the knowledge to get more from conscious existence.

    It is not written anywhere in the nature or in our destiny, and it is also not guaranted that we will spread human spirit accross the universe. But we can mobilise ourselves according to this dream. Even if we can not achieve our final goal, we would learn a way better options for our kind throughout the process.
     
  8. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    You ought to read the Belisaurius series.

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    The story involves an alternate history in which the historical figure Belisarius (an actual Byzantine general) is called upon to battle the evil Malwa empire that is backed by the "new gods" who are time travelers from the distant future who are disgusted by the many phenotypes mankind has assumed to adapt to many different planets.

    Anyway, it's an excellent series of alternative history/military scifi which has your idea regarding mankind adapting to his environment as a central part of the story.
     
  9. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    So your claim is that a person's height is dictated by something other than genetics?
     
  10. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    I assumed he meant weight.
     
  11. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    Well, I'm going by the fact that (if you dismiss the woo-woo stories about susquatches, ferla mohr, et. al.) the tallest person in history who has actually been reliably measured was Robert Pershing Wadlow, (1918-40) who stood at 8' 11", and was still growing at the time of his death--which was caused by cellulitus due to a poorly-fitted brace. He had to wear the brace in order to stand up properly. Had he stayed alive until he reached 30, he would have certainly grown to be over 9 feet tall. His pituitary gland was affected, which is the usual reason such giantism occurs, along with acromegaly, a physical condition that usually accompanies extreme giantism.

    My main point is that it seems there are gravitationally imposed limits on the physical size that people can attain, and even these very tall people are only thus because of some problem with their pituitary gland: there are spurious claims of people who were talled than 9 feet, but none of these folks were measured accurately. Genetics certainly plays a part in height--the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi are a good example--but I think that with the reduction in gravity, there will certainly be the potential for people to become larger and taller--sort of like human noodles--on lighter gravity planets.
     
  12. thinking Banned Banned

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    it nice to see some up-lifting attitudes towards Humanity for a change !!!!!!!!!!
     
  13. D H Some other guy Valued Senior Member

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    This thread doesn't belong in this forum. It looks more like biology & genetics or science fiction. Where do you want it, xylene?
     
  14. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    Well, DH, I must admit it looks more like sci-fi at the moment, but it's a genuine question about how the human body is going to change when our species encounters the different physical environments of other worlds. I suggest the biology/genetics forum--I was tossing up about whether to put it there or in the astronomy section; I decided on the latter because it would be biological and genetic change brought by the new environment of other worlds; so I considered that this is where it belonged--but feel free to transfer this thread to the bio/gen forum if you think it would be more suitable there.
     
  15. D H Some other guy Valued Senior Member

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    Moved to biology/genetics.
     
  16. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    I believe people have the potential for great things, thinking...I think it was Konstantin Tsialkovsky who said, 'Mankind has Earth as his cradle; but people cannot stay in the cradle for ever'. I would follow that up by adding (partly paraphrasing the oration of Pericles) 'We may have had Earth as a cradle, but heroic humanity will have the entire galaxy as a grave'.
     
  17. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575

    how about within populations, mostly genetic, between populations, mostly environmental?

    The precise relationship between genetics and environment and exact role of genetics itself is complex and uncertain. Human height is both of moderately high phenotypic plasticity and is highly heritable. Height is a multigenic trait. There are substantial relationships in the heights among biological families; the heights of parents and family are a good predictor for the height of their children. Environmental influences are most pronounced if they are highly favorable or unfavorable to growth, especially when occurring during critical periods and when continuing multigenerationally. Genetic profile (genotype) provides potentialities or proclivities which interact with environmental factors throughout the period of growth resulting (phenotype) in final adult height. Essentially, the developing body devotes energy to growth after other bodily functions are satisfied.

    Asian populations were once thought to be inherently shorter, but with the increases in height even in East Asian nations such as Japan and South Korea as diet changes it now seems that humans as a species probably possess a roughly similar genetic height potential (excluding permutations like the Pygmies), and that thus a predictive genotypic basis for height differentiation has not yet evolved. (link)


    mmph
    sounds good


    as does that

    heh

    data storage
    archiving
    backups
    redundancies

    its a brand new paradigm
    internal memory banks are so passe

    /snicker
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2009
  18. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575

    The term exobiology was coined by Nobel Prize winning scientist Joshua Lederberg. What it means is the study of life beyond the Earth. But since there's no known life beyond the Earth people say its a subject with no subject matter. It refers to the search for life elsewhere, Mars, the satellites of Jupiter and in other solar systems. It is also used to describe studies of the origin of life on Earth, that is, the study of pre-biotic Earth and what chemical reactions might have taken place as the setting for life's origin. (link)

    so ahh
    a comparative extrapolation of biological systems on this world, offworld, seems quite fitting for the aec forum

    now i shall ignore op and focus on tt with a series of bogus posts thus necessitating a move back to original fori

    what fun
     
  19. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    I agree, Gustav...internal memory banks are not only passe, but extremely unreliable, as are every other form of data storage you mention above. Look how many books have been burned throughout history, and how much knowledge has been lost thereby. That's not going to stop--even in 2003, the main library of Bagdad was obliterated in a single day of looting and burning. The Nation Museum of Iraq suffered the same fate, and only about one quarter of those artifacts have ever been recovered. You only need things to go pearshaped very briefly for people to go completely crazy and start destroying or dispersing valuable things in vast quantities. Knowledge is fragile--how much do we know about everyday life even 500 years ago, let alone 1000 or 5000 years ago?

    Let's consider the essential if that I'm talking about; If Humanity spreads out over the Galaxy, they're very likely going to take thousands of years to do so; even given the remote possibility that some boffins might come up with the secret to FTL travel, you're still going to be dealing with weeks or months of flight-time across the galaxy, and all the dangers to life and limb that such voyages involve. When we have spread over the entire Galaxy, say 20,000 years from now at least, how much knowledge will those people have, being faraway from us in space and time, of their ancient, original spacefaring ancestors? Will they know or even care where Earth is situated in the Galaxy? People may chuckle, but when I talk about Old Earth of the legends and tall tales, I'm not kidding...how much information will have been lost over the course of twenty millennia? In 200,000 years--a time that separates us from our earliest H. Sapiens ancestors--will we still even consider ourselves as humans, or will we be so completely integrated into the skein of the Galaxy that we have become merely another genetic strand in the vast tapestry, superceded by other races who have followed our example and spread among the stars?
     
  20. Gustav Banned Banned

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    you have a point
    digitized info is not immune if there is a deliberate and systematic effort to wipe it out.
    barring that attempt, current tech allows archiving to be somewhat more sophisticated than a single library holding books

    i say if there is a will, a repository of knowledge can be made to persevere. from now to eons later
     
  21. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575
    hmm
    i wonder how tho
     
  22. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    And for such a long time, Gustav...knowledge is not eternal; at least, not in this world. Look at Earth's history, as I pointed out in my previous post. The Human race will go on, possibly for another couple of million years, in whatever form, as they mix with other races in the Galaxy. Yet how much sure knowledge will they have of their origins, and how much will they even care, when they're so deeply immersed in the culture or race of another world?
     
  23. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    The diversification of the human species, and the preservation of historical data, in a galactic empire are two subjects covered by the Orion's Arm Universe Project
    http://eg.orionsarm.com/

    Deliberate genetic engineering to adapt human beings to different environments will result in a diversification of the human species, so much so that sometimes two different species of humanity will meet and not recognise each other.
     

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