Is it really that rare? Do most other planets not have any or much?

Why have we got so much on earth?

If water can be a liquid, a gas and a solid, can we find a way to alter waters form so that it can go from liquid to solid without freezing?

If we could change waters form to a solid (on a large scale) could we prevent the flooding from global warming?

First, remember how close the Earth is to the sun (solar energy - heat).

Second, Mars is the next farthest away planet from the sun and we believe there is frozen water on Mars and on its moons.

Third, next out, "Jupiter's moon Europa from NASA's Galileo spacecraft indicate that "warm ice" or even liquid water may have existed, and perhaps still exists today beneath Europa's cracked icy crust." http://www.solarviews.com/eng/galpr5.htm

Fourth, "The density of Saturn's moon Rhea suggests that it is largely made of water ice with a small proportion of rocky material. Note that the ancient impact scars that ripped through the ice early after the formation of the solar system are still preserved to this day." http://pds.jpl.nasa.gov/planets/captions/saturn/rhealimb.htm

Fifth, "The atmosphere of Uranus is composed of 83% hydrogen, 15% helium, 2% methane and small amounts of acetylene and other hydrocarbons....Below this region Uranus appears to be composed of a mantle rich in water, methane, ammonia, and other elements. These elements are under high temperatures and pressures deep within the planet." http://www.solarviews.com/eng/uranus.htm

Sixth, the next planet out Neptune: "The outer third is a mixture of heated gases comprised of hydrogen, helium, water and methane."
www.solarviews.com/eng/neptune.htm

Finally, although this is very speculative and debateable, "About 75% of Pluto is rock, about 20% is water-ice, and about 5% is methane-ice. Pluto has a rocky core, with a layer of water-ice and with methane on the top." http://www.abc.net.au/science/space/planets/pluto.htm


"If water can be a liquid, a gas and a solid, can we find a way to alter waters form so that it can go from liquid to solid without freezing?"

Turning a liquid into a solid is a branch of science called "solid state physics." Freezing is the process of cooling a liquid to the temperature where it turns into a solid. In the physics that we know of in our universe, water turns into a solid (ice) through a phase transformation called "freezing." As far as I know, we do not know of any other way.

Is it really that rare? Do most other planets not have any or much?

Why have we got so much on earth?

If water can be a liquid, a gas and a solid, can we find a way to alter waters form so that it can go from liquid to solid without freezing?

If we could change waters form to a solid (on a large scale) could we prevent the flooding from global warming?
either uranus or neptune is covered with it

Cheers Valich for such a detailed reply. Seems water isn't rare at all.

Maybe another question I should have asked, was; what is water? Why is it so special that all know life depends on it?

Life needs a solvent. On earth, that solvent is water. On other planets, life could theoretically use other solvents, such as fluoroantimonic acid, or lava, or liquid nitrogen, depending of course on the makeup of those organisms.

It helps that frozen water is lighter than liquid water, due to the peculiarities of H bonding between oxygen and hydrogen in different molecules of water. this means that oceans freeze from the top down, not bottom up. Think about how hard it would be to live in such oceans.

All known life is carbon based, not water based. It is very easy to hypothetically assume that other forms of life could be silicon based.

>> Is it really that rare?>>>

It is an unnatural (or ephemeral ) molecule in the Universe

>>>Do most other planets not have any or much? >>>

any water there is destroyed as fast as it may be formed from the fundamental hydrogen/oxygen molecule H2O2

>> Why have we got so much on earth? >>>

Because the seeds of LIFE (super-organism composed of all life forms) manufactures water from inorganic substrates..... rock eaters produce water as an excretion product

How do we know that Uranus or Neptune also has water? There's been a lot of scientific hype and heated debates about water originally on Mars, but this has yet to be proven.

??? has yet to be proven. >>

so why bother even wondering... space is dry, dry dry !!!

On Mars:

Even if you discount the indirect evidence for water (neutron absorption by hydrogen in the subsurface, dry outflow channels and chaotic terrain, splash craters, evaporite deposits and hydrated minerals, etc.), the water is there for all to see on the surface. Mars has permanent ice-caps composed predominately of water ice.

Elsewhere:

What about the three icy Galilean satellites, possible ice at the poles of our own Moon, comets, KBOs, interstellar water, etc.?

On Mars:

Even if you discount the indirect evidence for water (neutron absorption by hydrogen in the subsurface, dry outflow channels and chaotic terrain, splash craters, evaporite deposits and hydrated minerals, etc.), the water is there for all to see on the surface. Mars has permanent ice-caps composed predominately of water ice.

Elsewhere:

What about the three icy Galilean satellites, possible ice at the poles of our own Moon, comets, KBOs, interstellar water, etc.?Ice caps on Mars? Cite your sources and make sure they are scientific!

<< What about ....

When a real lab top analysis shows that water is present then....

H2O2 can breakdown to water..... but nowhere like Earth, where water is everywhere....

The icy moons ?... covered in H2O2 ice.... only H2O2 out there... drawn from chemical evidence, even if no one agrees.

comets.... solid H2O2 ice with some material that was ripped of some cold hunk of rock

Valich,

You can see the ice caps through a telescope with your own eyes, although admittedly this would not convince you of their composition. There is debate (or has been anyway) about whether solid carbon dioxide or water makes up most of the volume.
Try these links. They aren't scientific papers, but hopefully NASA and ESA are credible enough for your purposes.

ESA (http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEMYKEX5WRD_0.html)
NASA (http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/agu_f98.html)

URI,

Could you please outline the chemical evidence for me?

Ice caps on Mars? Cite your sources and make sure they are scientific!

Nice style copying. :p

Mars North Pole:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/9812/marsnpole_mola1.jpg

Ice caps on Mars? Cite your sources and make sure they are scientific!
You have got to be kidding me!
I thought you were dumb, but sheeet!
Ah! I have it now. You are winding us up. Outstanding job. You really had me convinced, vallich. I take my hat off to you. I would not have believed, until now, that it was all an act, but this piece of stupidity is a stretch too far. I am impressed that you were able to push the right buttons and so thoroughly con me in all those other threads. I really believed you were being that obtuse and or stupid. Nice one. If you'll drop the act now, perhaps we can be friends.

Just for the record, and the interested bystander, here are a couple of references. These also address the issue, that has been understood for years, that the North Polar cap is predominantly water ice, while the Southern cap is mainly carbon dioxide:

Maria T. Zuber, et al (1998) Observations of the North Polar Region of Mars from the Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter Science Vol. 282.

Elevations from the Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter (MOLA) have been used to construct a precise topographic map of the martian north polar region. The northern ice cap has a maximum elevation of 3 kilometers above its surroundings but lies within a 5-kilometer-deep hemispheric depression that is contiguous with the area into which most outflow channels emptied. Polar cap topography displays evidence of modification by ablation, flow, and wind and is consistent with a primarily H2O composition.

Timothy N. Titus, et al. (2003) Exposed Water Ice Discovered near the South Pole of Mars Science Vol. 299

The Mars Odyssey Thermal Emission Imaging System (THEMIS) has discovered water ice exposed near the edge of Mars' southern perennial polar cap. The surface H2O ice was first observed by THEMIS as a region that was cooler than expected for dry soil at that latitude during the summer season. Diurnal and seasonal temperature trends derived from Mars Global Surveyor Thermal Emission Spectrometer observations indicate that there is H2O ice at the surface. Viking observations, and the few other relevant THEMIS observations, indicate that surface H2O ice may be widespread around and under the perennial CO2 cap.

I thought I recently read a news article somewhere (nature or science) that there is probably less water on mars than previously thought. I can't be arsed to look for it (the source, not the water on mars)

>> Could you please outline the chemical evidence for me?

if you wish to pursue the chemical logic see
http://www.omegafour.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=24&sid=8c60b07745ef9ef1f80a9b0a0fe74039

>> the North Polar cap is predominantly water ice,

no chance

I thought I recently read a news article somewhere (nature or science) that there is probably less water on mars than previously thought. I can't be arsed to look for it (the source, not the water on mars)If you scrape of the veneer of civilised, objective behaviour covering most practicing scientists you find intense emotional prejudices. (Work with me on this spurious. I may be using a little exageration, but you get the idea.)
In relation to water on Mars there are two views: there is a lot of water; there is very little water.
Each group is looking for data to support their view to the exclusion of the other. So, we get a see-saw back and forth as each piece of research gets published.
I believe I saw reports on the research you are referring to, within the last month. On the other hand we have this from ESA, reported on the popular Mars Daily, claiming substantial amounts of subsusrface water.
http://www.spacedaily.com/2005/051130170200.txgxuk66.html

Spurious, perhaps you were referring to this recent news (http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1817&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0). It was published in Nature.

Uri, I couldn't see anything regarding hydrogen peroxide on that site you linked to. Could you post another link or maybe describe the evidence briefly here please?

>> Uri, I couldn't see anything regarding hydrogen peroxide on that site


The site shows the cosmic chemistry of H2O2 formation, and why water is not formed

>> describe the evidence briefly here please?

Ok on a planet O2 is reacted and locked away with other 'minerals', H2O is equally reactive and unless supplies are renewed, O2 and H2O will not exist as such and even H2O2 will not accumulate unless frozen.

H2O2 is continually formed in space... and it is constantly deposited upon cold hunks of rock.... see moons..etc
so it can and does accumulate as ice.

Mars has H2O2 in the atmosphere and on the surface. No water has been analysed... just conjecture that it is there.

Earth appears to be the only body (planet) with real water.... and that is because LIFE has produced it en mass.

Actually i am not sure of the question, so if this is not sufficient, please ask again :)

Maybe another question I should have asked, was; what is water? Why is it so special that all know life depends on it?Water has lots of very important properties for biological systems. It is a very simple and very stable molecule. This means that it can easily be used as an endpoint for a wide variety of important metabolic reactions. It is highly polar, so it is a liquid at relatively high temperatures where most solvents of the same molecular weight are gasses. Its small size and polarity is also crucial for the complicated folding patterns of protein structures that are formed due to the hydropobic and hydrophilic portions of an amino-acid chain.

I don't know of another solvent that would do all of that. The oceans staying liquid is a definite plus too!

-Dale

URI,

I found what you linked to. Thanks. I have a question but I'm not a chemist so please bear that in mind if you answer.

If water, like oxygen, is reactive enough to bind to minerals on Mars, then why wouldn't the hydrogen peroxide decay and do the same? Why should frozen hydrogen peroxide be stable on the surface of Mars if frozen water is not, given that hydrogen peroxide is prone to sudden exothermic breakdown?

Ah! I have it now. You are winding us up. Outstanding job. You really had me convinced, vallich. I take my hat off to you. I would not have believed, until now, that it was all an act, but this piece of stupidity is a stretch too far. I am impressed that you were able to push the right buttons and so thoroughly con me in all those other threads. I really believed you were being that obtuse and or stupid. Nice one. If you'll drop the act now, perhaps we can be friends.

Yeah.
But don't you still sorta wonder?
Maybe he is that stupid?
I have long had strong suspicions of contrivance in Valich's idiocy. But, if so, he's such a well-crafted creature that all those suspicions go out the window when he says something so incredibly stupid that you're just like, 'wow. That was fucking dumb.' and you can't help but tell him so. Even though you are 80 percent or more sure that the whole thing is an act.

This is pretty bad though.
No ice caps on Mars.
He's made a few other statements that equal this in idiocy lately as well. He made the claim that space is composed of plasma and he claimed that land animals descended from Coelocanths.
However. The thing is that he never came back to those threads... you'd think he would try to back up his more outrageous idiocy if they were intentionally placed...
Maybe he's just really, really dumb?
By the way. He's got a geology degree now. Did you notice? Funny how he only mentions geology 101 though. That's the epitome of the geology degree, yes? Geology 101? I bet his professors loved his inciteful comments in class.
Heh.


Anyway.
Picking on the idiot is fun and all.
But here's more on water on Mars.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41355000/jpg/_41355975_mars_lake203_esa.jpg
From: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=47644

>> nice pic invert_nexus >>

Great shot of H2O2 ice !

Valich,

You can see the ice caps through a telescope with your own eyes, although admittedly this would not convince you of their composition. There is debate (or has been anyway) about whether solid carbon dioxide or water makes up most of the volume.
Try these links. They aren't scientific papers, but hopefully NASA and ESA are credible enough for your purposes.I do have a telescope. I see no ice caps on Mars. And neither do other scientists. Hopefully this is enough evidence for you to convert from sciencefiction and hearsay to science and proven - not just hypothesized - facts:

"Mars Not So Wet Afterall

The new study indicates chemical signatures in the bedrock, interpreted in 2004 by the Mars Exploration Rover, or MER, mission team as evidence for widespread, intermittent water at Mars' surface, may have instead been created by the reaction of sulfur-bearing steam vapors moving up through volcanic ash deposits. Known as Meridiani Planum, the region may have been more geologically similar to volcanic regions in parts of North America, Hawaii or Europe." http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.phpop=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1813

"A series of scientific papers published in December 2004 by the Mars Exploration Rover team and based on data gathered by the rover Opportunity, concluded that the Meridiani Planum region once probably had a large sea or huge lake that may have waxed and waned over eons. The authors proposed that the evaporation of surface and subsurface water over time left behind various chemical precipitates -- predominately sulfate salts -- which they interpreted as evidence for a watery environment that would have been conducive for life to exist.

But if the sulfate was the result of precipitation from an evaporating brine of surface and subsurface water as has been proposed, McCollom and Hynek contend the bedrock should be enriched with a large amount of positively charged atoms, known as cations, from minerals like iron, calcium and magnesium. But it is not, they said.

"We think the bedrock was laid down by enormous volcanic ash flows over time that were then permeated by sulfur dioxide-rich steam vapors," said McCollom. "The sulfur dioxide and water combined to form sulfuric acid, which reacted with and altered the bedrock to give it its present chemical composition."

The new scenario does not require prolonged interaction between bedrock and a standing body of surface water as proposed by the MER team, and the process likely occurred at high temperatures, perhaps more than 200 degrees F, said McCollom. "Everything about the site seems to be consistent with our conclusions," he said.

The European Space Agency's Mars Express spacecraft recently showed the chemistry of layered deposits surrounding the Meridiani Planum region is similar to the bedrock at the Opportunity landing site, implying the entire area hosted volcanic activity, said Hynek. The size of the suspected Meridiani Planum volcanic deposits appears much larger than any similar deposit on Earth and encompasses an area roughly the size of Arizona, according to the CU-Boulder researchers.

McCollom described the geology of the region as "solfatara-like,"' a term that originated from Solfatara Crater, a volcanic region near Naples, Italy, harboring vents that emit vapors. "While solfataras are riddled with vents and fissures giving off sulfurous vapors at the surface, the deposits we see at Meridiani probably represent the subsurface beneath such fissures," said McCollom.

On Earth, solfataras host microbes that are capable of using sulfur for sustenance, McCollom said. Some of the areas are now under study by astrobiologists looking to characterize extreme environments on Earth that support life." http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/printer_boulder_mars_less_watery.html

"Soon after NASA's robotic rover Opportunity began exploring Mars, it found minerals and rocks that its handlers said were evidence of a warm, wet history. But two groups of scientists have now questioned this interpretation. It is unclear whether all the water on Mars came in sudden bursts a long time ago, when meteorites battered the ice deposits of the young planet, or whether some stood about in warmish puddles later in Mars' life, which might have given life time to evolve. When Opportunity touched down on a part of Mars called Meridiani Planum, it came across geology that looked tantalizingly like the product of standing water.

But in this week's Nature, other researchers suggest an alternative, dry, explanation.

Meteors and volcanoes: Paul Knauth, a geologist from Arizona State University, Tempe, and his colleagues argue that all these features were produced by a surge of rock, minerals and brine caused by a meteorite impact, along with chemical changes from groundwater - but no pools.

"Opportunity's observations themselves are valid," says Knauth's Arizona colleague Donald Burt. "But the current interpretations are not supported by the evidence." Burt points out that any water in the area would have left channels, deltas and other shoreline features that Opportunity has not found. He adds that briny, acidic water would dissolve through alkaline basalt rock, not create puddles. "It would be like trying to dump acid in a marble bathtub," he says.

The layered features found by Opportunity, interpreted as sedimentation from water, are also seen on Earth. But in some cases they are attributed to surges of material from meteorite impacts. Thomas McCollom and Brian Hynek, both planetary scientists at the University of Colorado, Boulder, provide another arid explanation. They suggest that the mineral deposits are volcanic ash that has reacted with small amounts of acidic water and the volcanic gas sulphur dioxide.

The watery interpretation fails, they argue, because the sediments do not contain enough of some metals - such as calcium, magnesium and iron - that ought to be in rocks laid down by water." http://www.thothweb.com/article2021.html

Nice style copying. :p

Mars North Pole:"Nice style copying" - I agree. But is there someone out there that thinks that everything that is white is snow or ice??? Sulfur?

Past water on Mars ?
Most probably Mars has been infected with LIFE in the distant past.... then water would have been present...maybe lots.... but it would have long been transformed into hydrogen peroxide by UV and either left for space or condensed and froze at the poles.

Spectroscopic satellite observations of the Martian polar caps show that the the ice is water ice, not hydrogen peroxide.

I have reported vallich for his most recent post with these words:

Persistent posting of false information under the guise of 'good science'.
In this instance a ridiculous claim that there are no ice caps on Mars.
Casual readers of the thread could be easily misled because vallich persistently accompanies his posts with quotes and links that superficially support his bizarre positions.
In this instance he has posted links suggesting Mars has been drier historically than previously supposed - this is irrelevant to the composition of the polar caps, the northern one which is mainly water ice, while the southern though mainly carbond dioxide contains significant water.

Valich... first of all, the articles you copy and pasted... you didnt copy and paste the entire thing. And dont do that, thats what the link is for. There is no need to duplicate what is clearly written on another page.

Second of all, there are no ice caps on Mars? Ha! what, do you think God accidently spilled baking soda or flour on the top and bottom of Mars while he was cooking up the solar system? Dont be stupid. I am really starting to get tired of these outrageous claims. You dont have any ground to stand on, if you did I wouldnt be making an issue.

Oh and beware of URI.... He seems to think that everything in the universe is made of Hydrogen Peroxide...

Oh look what I found: MSDS H202

"Stability and Reactivity
Stability:
Stable under ordinary conditions of use and storage.
Hazardous Decomposition Products:
Decomposes to water and oxygen.
Hazardous Polymerization:
Will not occur.
Incompatibilities:
Heat, reducing agents, organic materials, dirt, alkalis, rust, and many metals.
Conditions to Avoid:
Light, heat, incompatibles. "

I do have a telescope. I see no ice caps on Mars. And neither do other scientists. Hopefully this is enough evidence for you to convert from sciencefiction and hearsay to science and proven - not just hypothesized - facts:Are you totally lacking in any sense of shame. The presence of ice caps on Mars has been known for over a century.

One: Consult any text book on Mars or on the planets of the solar system published in the last fifty years and you will find the Martian ice caps are spoken of.
TwoRefer to the NASA and ESA links provided by Laika that refer to the Martian ice caps.
ThreeRead the recent research papers in my link above that talk about the Martian ice caps
FourContemplate the first ten links from a google search for mars "ice caps" that turned up over 122,000 hits.

http://aerospacescholars.jsc.nasa.gov/CAS/lessons/L9/17.HTM
Both poles have small permanent (or residual) caps and seasonal (or transient) caps that grow very large then shrink. The north pole permanent cap is water ice. The south pole permanent cap seems to be a mixture of water and carbon dioxide ice.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_spirals_040325.html
Odd spiraling gorges etched deep into the polar ice caps of Mars have stumped scientists for decades.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_ice_030213.html
The uncovering of an apparent error in atmospheric models of Mars dating back more than three decades suggests that both of the permanently frozen polar caps are made mostly of water ice and contain very little frozen carbon dioxide.

http://www.spacetoday.org/SolSys/Mars/MarsThePlanet/MarsIce.html
but there is evidence that water on Mars may be locked in polar ice caps buried under the two large carbon dioxide frost caps.

http://www.home-ice-makers.com/ice_caps_mars.htm
Water ice on Mars? Yes. Like the Earth, Mars has two polar ice caps, each one expanding in winter and shrinking in summer

http://www.edb.utexas.edu/missiontomars/pdf/water1.pdf
Mars has ice caps on its North and South poles. The caps are made of water ice and carbon dioxide ice.

http://www.climateark.org/articles/2001/4th/stsumars.htm
He said the photos suggest that the polar caps are dense slabs of frozen carbon dioxide that may have been deposited over centuries, much like the way seasonal snow on Earth accumulates to form a glacier.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/03/09/mars.polar.caps/
Besides showcasing elegant and contrasting patterns around the polar caps of Mars, new images snapped by Mars Global Surveyor offer evidence that the northern and southern extremes have experienced markedly different geologic pasts

http://www.drboylan.com/trfmars2.html
No extract for this one. This nutter thinks NASA has a secret base on Mars.

http://www.rmpbs.org/learn/frontier/explore/mars/explore.html
Although Mars is a very different planet from Earth, one feature that it does share with our planet is the presence of polar ice caps.

Stop being a moron, vallich. Such behaviour is pathetic, unscientific, shameful and dishonest. It really is time for you to grow up.

Spectroscopic satellite observations of the Martian polar caps show that the the ice is water ice, not hydrogen peroxide.I am not denying it, but for the sake of being scientific and for the advancement of knowledge I BEG you to cite your sources. Thank you.

Quick Google Search:

"Remote study of the polar caps revealed that they consist both of frozen water and of frozen carbon dioxide ("dry ice''). Clearly, there is now at least some water on Mars, although perhaps only a tiny amount."? http://www.astro.queensu.ca/~hanes/p014/Notes/Topic_034.html

"Clouds weren't considered to be very important to the Martian climate during the Viking visits because they were so scarce....Now we can see where they may play a role in transporting water between the north and south poles during the Martian year."
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/newsdesk/archive/releases/1995/16/astrofile/

Hubble. Okay, got it! Thanks.

Valich,

I do have a telescope. I see no ice caps on Mars. And neither do other scientists. Hopefully this is enough evidence for you to convert from sciencefiction and hearsay to science and proven - not just hypothesized - facts:

I must say am slightly offended and confused by this remark. You appear to dismiss a significant body of work, the opinions of a significant number of scientists (and the not-quite-as-significant opinion of myself) as "sciencefiction and hearsay". You countered all this 'hearsay' by citing just two works which claim that some specific layered deposits in Meridiani Planum are better explained by processes which do not involve large bodies of stranding water. Now the article you pasted does not mention the ice caps at the poles. It does not mention outflow channels. It does not mention rampart craters. It does not mention neutron absorption. It does not mention spectroscopic evidence.

Yet you thought that your post might be enough for me to "convert from sciencefiction and hearsay to science and proven - not just hypothesized - facts".

Quick Google Search:

"Remote study of the polar caps revealed that they consist both of frozen water and of frozen carbon dioxide ("dry ice''). Clearly, there is now at least some water on Mars, although perhaps only a tiny amount."? http://www.astro.queensu.ca/~hanes/p014/Notes/Topic_034.html

"Clouds weren't considered to be very important to the Martian climate during the Viking visits because they were so scarce....Now we can see where they may play a role in transporting water between the north and south poles during the Martian year."
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/newsdesk/archive/releases/1995/16/astrofile/

Hubble. Okay, got it! Thanks.So what does this signify? That you recognise you were wrong? That there are ice caps on Mars? That you are climbing down, while pretending to stand unassailable on the moral high ground?
Vallich, the Emperor is not only naked, but he's physically unattractive, too.

There's some more evidence for standing water at Meridiani Planum here at Spaceref.com (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=19212). I wonder if this is a problem for the volcanic and impact origin theories, or maybe they can account for this type of lamination.

URI, surface ice has been detected on Comet Tempel 1.

No polar caps on Mars? What are you silly sciencey types up to now??? ;)

Just a further abberation by the weasel Vallich. He has finally given up posting nonsense on geology and biology. I almost miss his ignorant intransigence.