Evolution is the process by which God is creating us.

And you think that is logical? That an unknown supernatural power, invisable to everyone, is day by day making everything change from something to another thing. That just doesn't make sense to me, if there was a God as you say then why not just make everything perfect to begin with instead of trying to get it right? :shrug:

do you mean instantaneously and magically? like "poof"!

Or the process of evolution can be called "god".

There isn't really much logic in that statement. It's no more logical than stating "god wears pink tutus."

Or the process of evolution can be called "god".

the intelligence and force that's driving the evolution of everything.

There isn't really much logic in that statement. It's no more logical than stating "god wears pink tutus."

and why is that? because you're on a side? doesn't jive with your paradigm?

and why is that? because you're on a side? doesn't jive with your paradigm?

Sort of, yeah. What would make me jump to the conclusion that god is behind evolution? You say it's a logical claim, but I don't see a proof or an explanation as to how you got to it. Similarly, you have no reason to believe my statement of god and his tutus, simply because I gave you no proof or explanation to lead you to that claim.

Evolution is the process by which God is creating us.

Melding those two ideas is conflicting.
Evolution is the continual creation of new life. While adaptation is merely life modified to survive.

If you are Christian and use the Bible to reason then the Bible says with the "Seven Days" that creation was completed and "good" in the eyes of God. There was nothing left to create.

Evolution invalidates that conclusion. Chrisitians should accepts that life adapts to survive which is scientificly proven. Anything more is theory.

the intelligence and force that's driving the evolution of everything.

Mmmm...;)

the intelligence and force that's driving the evolution of everything.

Intelligence would be to reject religions as well as Gods as many other societies have done through the past. The Incas, Myans and Egyptians are all no longer following the original religions that once governed them all. Just remember that in the past those religions were made up by those wanting to control the society that once was. The people from those religions did away with them many years ago because they knew that those religions didn't really exist except to control their societies as governments now do. Why go backwards believing in the supernatural when we all know now that the religions just make up stories as they go along to keep the people in control once again. :(

Evolution is the process by which God is creating us.

That is a confident statement. How do you kno what god is doing ?

Melding those two ideas is conflicting.
Evolution is the continual creation of new life. While adaptation is merely life modified to survive.

If you are Christian and use the Bible to reason then the Bible says with the "Seven Days" that creation was completed and "good" in the eyes of God. There was nothing left to create.

Evolution invalidates that conclusion. Chrisitians should accepts that life adapts to survive which is scientificly proven. Anything more is theory.

Evoliution has not been scientifically proven. Nothing has, and no scientist would argue otherwise. A scientific theory proves nothing; it is simply the best explanation we have so far.

To say that life adapts to survive implies a purpose. Evolution is blind.

If only it were presented in such a mannor.
Unfortunatly it has become dogma and doctrine. All which I do not care for.

To say that life adapts to survive implies a purpose. Evolution is blind.

It appears that life does adapt to survive. Why do you think this implies a purpose?

See Stephen Wolfram`s a New Kind of Science

Wolfram says complexity arises naturally with even the smallest change in the organism's genetic makeup, and that natural selection serves mainly to rein it in by culling the unworkable variations.

This from: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1332097

Sort of, yeah. What would make me jump to the conclusion that god is behind evolution? You say it's a logical claim, but I don't see a proof or an explanation as to how you got to it. Similarly, you have no reason to believe my statement of god and his tutus, simply because I gave you no proof or explanation to lead you to that claim.

well, god is behind everything. this is my logic...

god definitely exists. he and observation have proven that to me.

evolution definitely occurs. science and observation have proven that to me.

he's OBVIOUSLY not finished yet. if he is, then i'm not staying or worshipping.

and this is what i understand...

that he operates (creates) within his own law. nothing happens by "magic". things happen according to law...natural, biological, physical, spiritual...law.

Melding those two ideas is conflicting.
Evolution is the continual creation of new life. While adaptation is merely life modified to survive.

If you are Christian and use the Bible to reason then the Bible says with the "Seven Days" that creation was completed and "good" in the eyes of God. There was nothing left to create.

Evolution invalidates that conclusion. Chrisitians should accepts that life adapts to survive which is scientificly proven. Anything more is theory.

well, energy is never created or destroyed right? isn't that a law? it's just a transfer that takes place. so from that perspective, everything is adaptation.

the bible on the other hand, has a beginning and an end. a first page, and a last page. we are within the constraints of time and what is relevant to here and now. there is no time in the spiritual dimension. god is alpha and omega.

well, god is behind everything. this is my logic...

god definitely exists. he and observation have proven that to me.

...


Sorry, but that's not logic. In fact, it's almost entirely fallacious.

You have a number of unsupported premisses, you illicitly assume the very thing you're attempting to prove, and your conclusion does not follow from the premisses.

That is a confident statement. How do you kno what god is doing ?

i'm making a logical deduction, based on observation, and inspiration from him.

Evolution is a process by which we Gods are developing ourselves

If only it were presented in such a mannor.
Unfortunatly it has become dogma and doctrine. All which I do not care for.

i concur.

i'm making a logical deduction, based on observation, and inspiration from him.

Again, you completely misunderstand logic.

The words "deduction" and "observation" cannot logically occur conjoined in a sentence.

You're confusing deduction with induction.

Evolution is a process by which we Gods are developing ourselves

Nay Dragonmancer, nyet. We are like dust in the wind...:D

Nay Dragonmancer, nyet. We are like dust in the wind...:D

if you wish to be dust, might as well be it. ;)

if you wish to be dust, might as well be it

Heh, heh. My wish is to cut the cynicism from my bosom... perchance to dream ...;)

Intelligence would be to reject religions as well as Gods as many other societies have done through the past. The Incas, Myans and Egyptians are all no longer following the original religions that once governed them all. Just remember that in the past those religions were made up by those wanting to control the society that once was. The people from those religions did away with them many years ago because they knew that those religions didn't really exist except to control their societies as governments now do. Why go backwards believing in the supernatural when we all know now that the religions just make up stories as they go along to keep the people in control once again. :(

i think you're making a fatal logic flaw that many people make, and that is to equate spirituality with religion. you're right about religion. like anyting else in this world, it's used and misused. but don't throw the baby jesus out with the bathwater. all kinds of people have observed things, and given accounts of things, based on experience. experience interacting with a spiritual realm.

Heh, heh. My wish is to cut the cynicism from my bosom... perchance to dream ...;)

is that so?

do you really mean it?

dream is so much better than reality, so lets make the dream our reality and what is real to us the dream.

Sorry, but that's not logic. In fact, it's almost entirely fallacious.

You have a number of unsupported premisses, you illicitly assume the very thing you're attempting to prove, and your conclusion does not follow from the premisses.

*chuckle* well, you don't have to believe me. it's obvious that he hasn't proven his existence to everyone. it's up to the individual to want to know, and if they "knock", then he proves himself to the individual. it's personal...

and that's also logical.

*chuckle* well, you don't have to believe me. it's obvious that he hasn't proven his existence to everyone. it's up to the individual to want to know, and if they "knock", then he proves himself to the individual. it's personal...


Now you're making sense. And you're correct; it is up to the individual to choose to believe. This however, is neither a deduction, nor a logical argument.


...
and that's also logical.


Again, incorrect.

I'm not quibbling with the content of your position, you're free to choose to believe what you will. However, as the Thread starter, you chose to include the notion of logic. You have yet to describe any logical support for your position.
Is it possible that god may act via evolution? Yes.
Is it probable that god may act through evolution? No.
Have you supported this position in a logically valid manner? No.

Again, you completely misunderstand logic.

The words "deduction" and "observation" cannot logically occur conjoined in a sentence.

You're confusing deduction with induction.

you can certainly make a deduction based upon an observation. people do it all the time. i have not been a witness to but a small window of the creation process, and i do not know all there is to know about it. but based on what i do know, and on what i have seen, i can formulate some conclusions about it.

is that so?

do you really mean it?

dream is so much better than reality, so lets make the dream our reality and what is real to us the dream.

you guys sound like artists. :)

you can certainly make a deduction based upon an observation. people do it all the time. i have not been a witness to but a small window of the creation process, and i do not know all there is to know about it. but based on what i do know, and on what i have seen, i can formulate some conclusions about it.

Incorrect.

A deduction, by definition, is an argument where a particular conclusion is derived from one or more premisses wherein one is granted a priori status.

There can be no such thing as an a priori observation.

QED

Now you're making sense. And you're correct; it is up to the individual to choose to believe. This however, is neither a deduction, nor a logical argument.

no, no. you don't choose to believe. you can't help but believe once he has proven himself to you. what you choose, is to initiate him to do this for you.




Again, incorrect.

I'm not quibbling with the content of your position, you're free to choose to believe what you will. However, as the Thread starter, you chose to include the notion of logic. You have yet to describe any logical support for your position.
Is it possible that god may act via evolution? Yes.
Is it probable that god may act through evolution? No.
Have you supported this position in a logically valid manner? No.

yes i did...

well, god is behind everything. this is my logic...

god definitely exists. he and observation have proven that to me.

evolution definitely occurs. science and observation have proven that to me.

he's OBVIOUSLY not finished yet. if he is, then i'm not staying or worshipping.

and this is what i understand...

that he operates (creates) within his own law. nothing happens by "magic". things happen according to law...natural, biological, physical, spiritual...law.

Until god's "definite existence" can be proven to everyone, your "logic for both sides" is essentially a non-logical statement that would only be believed by theists.

Incorrect.

A deduction, by definition, is an argument where a particular conclusion is derived from one or more premisses wherein one is granted a priori status.

There can be no such thing as an a priori observation.

QED

there are no assumptions here...

i KNOW god. like personally. i KNOW that he exists and is who he says he is.

and perhaps i'm using the terms evolution and adaptation interchangably, but species have come and gone and evolved over time including the human race.

Until god's "definite existence" can be proven to everyone, your "logic for both sides" is essentially a non-logical statement that would only be believed by theists.

god's definite existence can be proven to everyone. but not everyone wants to know. if anyone wants to know, it's easy enough, as god takes care of it.

and i'm in no way talking about theology. i'm talking about actual experience.

i'm assuming that those on both sides do not know him. that's inherent in my arguement. because if they did know him, they wouldn't be arguing about it.

It's just not that simple.Trust me, if god exists I want to know. I've wanted to know for quite some time. But even with all that wanting, I still don't have an ounce of belief, still don't have the tiniest bit of proof of god's existence.

Draco

What if I woke up from a bad reality and it was only a dream? :(

you guys sound like artists

Artistes, madam... Artistes...:D

...if god exists I want to know. I've wanted to know for quite some time. But even with all that wanting, I still don't have an ounce of belief, still don't have the tiniest bit of proof of god's existence.Therein lies the paradox. To find what you seek, you must abandon the search, ultimately. You must give up the desire to find that which you seek.

Wherever you look, outside of yourself, you will find not "that which you seek", but at most an idea "of it"; when you can look within, at nothing, the search begins.
You have to abandon all ideas, conceptions and expectations. You have to leave something behind, in order to find the "nothingness".

In nothingness is everything you seek, because the "inner nothingness", is the expression of all there is.

Just ask a Zen master.

Does a Zen master believe in Lori_7's god?

Draco

What if I woke up from a bad reality and it was only a dream? :(

than life is good ;)

Evolution is the process by which God is creating us.
which one?

www.godchecker.com :confused:

the intelligence and force that's driving the evolution of everything.
inteligence huh?
ok why for example,would god create men with nipples :p

how about all those other mistakes,

http://www.freewebs.com/oolon/SMOGGM.htm

What if I woke up from a bad reality and it was only a dream? :(

In reality, we are God, but being all-powerful got really boring after a while because we could instantly get everything we wanted and there was never any surprise because we knew everything. So we chose to forget our powers and take this thrilling experience called life. Sometimes we even choose to dream nightmares, because then the awakening (death) is even better: "Whew, it was all just a dream..."

In reality, we are God, but being all-powerful got really boring after a while because we could instantly get everything we wanted and there was never any surprise because we knew everything. So we chose to forget our powers and take this thrilling experience called life. Sometimes we even choose to dream nightmares, because then the awakening (death) is even better: "Whew, it was all just a dream..."

Mmmm...so what is the actual point of this forgetting?

I love where Sir Laurens Van Der Post, quotes one of the "people of the desert" (Bushman/San/Koi) as saying "There's a dream dreaming us, and we must get back to that dream, and the vision, the power, and the energies at the disposal of man's dreaming self will help us to win the battle."

As an aside he also said - Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right. -- Laurens Van der Post

Therein lies the paradox. To find what you seek, you must abandon the search, ultimately. You must give up the desire to find that which you seek.

Wherever you look, outside of yourself, you will find not "that which you seek", but at most an idea "of it"; when you can look within, at nothing, the search begins.
You have to abandon all ideas, conceptions and expectations. You have to leave something behind, in order to find the "nothingness".

This is all fine and well, but in order to "abandon all ideas, conceptions and expectations", a person has to be either catatonic or enlightened.

Does a Zen master believe in Lori_7's god?

I think so.

But does the Zen master believe worshipping Lori_7's god and making oneself dependable on Lori_7's god is the best option to choose in this Universe? I think not.

If only it were presented in such a mannor.
Unfortunatly it has become dogma and doctrine. All which I do not care for.

It has been presented that way and is so understood by all intelligent laymen, It's the ID crowd who either fail to understand or deliberately twist facts to mislead people like you.

Find me a single instance of a scientific paper on the subject that says otherwise !

What has become dogma and doctrine is the invention of some Christians who cannot handle the challenge to their beliefs

inteligence huh?
ok why for example,would god create men with nipples :p

how about all those other mistakes,

http://www.freewebs.com/oolon/SMOGGM.htm

I have lain awake many a night and driven myself to distraction wondering whether Adam and Eve had navels.

intelligent design is the reluctance to use the word "God". so if people can't argue over creationism, they argue over semantics, which i'm pretty sure that's been shown in this thread. maybe if people would quit arguing, they would come together, and figure it all out. but people don't really want to figure it all out. all they really want, is to be right.

And who made your God, why man of course!

intelligent design is the reluctance to use the word "God". so if people can't argue over creationism, they argue over semantics, which i'm pretty sure that's been shown in this thread. maybe if people would quit arguing, they would come together, and figure it all out. but people don't really want to figure it all out. all they really want, is to be right.

People want to be right. Those who follow the scientific method hope to get as close as possible to whatever we can understand of the universe. They are aware that knowledge is provisional. If a theory can be shown to be wrong, they will drop or modify the old and go with the new. That is called progress.

Other people have a different approach. They find all their answers in a holy book which they claim is timeless and explains everything. They KNOW they are right. That is called stasis.

It has been presented that way and is so understood by all intelligent laymen, It's the ID crowd who either fail to understand or deliberately twist facts to mislead people like you.

Find me a single instance of a scientific paper on the subject that says otherwise !

What has become dogma and doctrine is the invention of some Christians who cannot handle the challenge to their beliefs

Please stop lying.

Please stop lying.

I asked you to cite a scientific source which supports what you say, and the best you can do is to ask me to stop lying. What a convincing response. So how about that source ?

intelligent design is the reluctance to use the word "God". so if people can't argue over creationism, they argue over semantics, which i'm pretty sure that's been shown in this thread. maybe if people would quit arguing, they would come together, and figure it all out. but people don't really want to figure it all out. all they really want, is to be right.

You gravely underestimate the importance of being right.

A person who has little or no interest in being right might as well give up on their life.

It has been presented that way and is so understood by all intelligent laymen, It's the ID crowd who either fail to understand or deliberately twist facts to mislead people like you.



Smithsonian Institution scientist Porter Kier is very dogmatic “they agree (scientist) that evolution is a fact and should be so labeled.” Not to mention Dawkins himself holds it as truth.

Apparently Kier and Dawkins don't fit under your mishappened classfication system.

who cares what others agree with and think of, the only thing that matters in this life is power. POWER (http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/yoeth/pandas-need-guns.jpg) to destroy and create.

That's very dark, dragon.

That's very dark, dragon.

the (http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ca3f90f978.jpg) truth hurts.

Nothing to do with pain. It's just dark as in the opposite of enlightened.

Nothing to do with pain. It's just dark as in the opposite of enlightened.

oh Saquist your so direct, its a metaphor

OH...
sorry.

which one?

www.godchecker.com :confused:

they're all one. we're all one. just different manifestations.

So whats the point, even if it is true ?

Smithsonian Institution scientist Porter Kier is very dogmatic “they agree (scientist) that evolution is a fact and should be so labeled.” Not to mention Dawkins himself holds it as truth.

Apparently Kier and Dawkins don't fit under your mishappened classfication system.

If you have quoted them correctly, they don't. I don't know what a "mishappened classification is ".

In his latest book, The God Delusion, Dawkins devotes a chapter to an argument which attempts to show why god almost certainly does not exist, which is not quite in accord with what you are saying. Dawkins is an atheist by personal coinviction.

Kier is expressing an opinion , not a fact. Science does not deal in facts.

Science can prove nothing; it is confined to espousing theories that are regarded as the best explanations we have at a given point in time. Knowledge is , therefore, provisional. If you look at the history of science you will find ecidence to support what I say. Think of the work of Galileo, Kepler, Newton and Einstein and you will see the process at work.

Sir James Jeans put it succinctly in likening science to a stream which turns back on itself many times as it journeys to the sea.

Addition: I think I can explain the apparent confusion. Facts are what we discover about the world and theories are our attempts to explain how those facts may fit together or interact. Evolutionary theory is not a fact; it's an explanation of how we understand the fossil record. If you can provide a reference, I would be interested in seeing for myself what Kier said and in what context he said it. My feeling is that he was using the word loosely.

An example might help. Gravity is a fact. If I drop a stone, it will fall. The explanation of gravity is a theory which may or may not be true. Remember what I said about Galileo, Newton and Einstein. Each provided an increasingly sophisticated account of gravity.But, while these theories were being formulated stones did not hover in mid air.; they continued to fall.

Evolutionary theory is an explanation based on what we know of the age of the earth, the fossil record and so on. It is the best explanation we have of how life developed on earth.

inteligence huh?
ok why for example,would god create men with nipples :p

how about all those other mistakes,

http://www.freewebs.com/oolon/SMOGGM.htm

you know what? i asked that question once, and someone told me that it's because at one time the entire species was female and they could empregnate themselves. or maybe that means they were hermaphrodites, and they could impregnate each other. i don't know...something like that...

In reality, we are God, but being all-powerful got really boring after a while because we could instantly get everything we wanted and there was never any surprise because we knew everything. So we chose to forget our powers and take this thrilling experience called life. Sometimes we even choose to dream nightmares, because then the awakening (death) is even better: "Whew, it was all just a dream..."

i believe it. we're so twisted.

You gravely underestimate the importance of being right.

A person who has little or no interest in being right might as well give up on their life.

ok, i want to be right because i want to do the right thing. in order to do the right thing, i need to know the truth. to know the truth, i have to let go of my ego, and open my mind and heart. what i'm saying is that it seems to me that many people want to be for the sake of being right, because their ego is at stake.

the (http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ca3f90f978.jpg) truth hurts.

i like it...hurt me.

ok, i want to be right because i want to do the right thing. in order to do the right thing, i need to know the truth. to know the truth, i have to let go of my ego, and open my mind and heart.

How do you know that?

How do you know that when you "let go of your ego" and "open your mind and heart", what you find is indeed the truth and not something else?

How do you know when you have let go of your "ego"?


what i'm saying is that it seems to me that many people want to be for the sake of being right, because their ego is at stake.

And this same "ego" is the force that drives people to seek any welfare for themselves in the first place.
Without an "ego", people simply wouldn't care what they do or what happens to them.

We need a Mod here to edit the title of this thread; there's little logical argument happening.

The fact of evolution precludes the intervention of a God. They are mutually exclusive explanations. Evolution needs no outside director, that is it's power as a theory.

The fact of evolution precludes the intervention of a God. They are mutually exclusive explanations. Evolution needs no outside director, that is it's power as a theory.

Entirely correct.



And yet.... good luck getting some people to understand that logic...

well, energy is never created or destroyed right? isn't that a law? it's just a transfer that takes place. so from that perspective, everything is adaptation.

the bible on the other hand, has a beginning and an end. a first page, and a last page. we are within the constraints of time and what is relevant to here and now. there is no time in the spiritual dimension. god is alpha and omega.

yeah...I'm not following you.
There is no time in the spirtual dimension. True
on creation...your thinkings seems abstract.

How do you know that?

How do you know that when you "let go of your ego" and "open your mind and heart", what you find is indeed the truth and not something else?

How do you know when you have let go of your "ego"?

well, because it's happened to me that way. that's the process that, when i looked back, i observed. it was only when i gave up caring what the truth is, that i found it, and that makes sense to me. that's what i think the "door" is in the scripture, "seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened", because your ego, and what you really want to be true will obsure the vision.

how to know if it's the truth is a hard question i think. but it starts with why and how you seek it in the first place, like we've discussed above. what are your intentions? are you sincere and humble, like a child? during the learning process, it explains what you experience. i don't claim to know about things that i don't experience. i can guess. i can conclude. i can assume. but not know. afterward, there is fruit. that's what the bible refers to it as, and it's the best judge of all, and it's simple. the truth produces good fruit, and a lie produces bad fruit. for some reason the ego is prone to believe lies. it's the corruption of the flesh that the bible calls sin. it's that part of us that cares more about being right, than it does about the truth. it is self-centeredness.

you know that you've let go when you just don't give a $&#@ anymore about whether you're right or wrong about what you've done or believed in the past or what the consequences of it are in the future. you know how deeply all of us become entrenched in our beliefs. we build our lives around them, our job, our families, our politics. we preach about them, base our decisions on them, identify with them...it becomes who we are. but that is a lie. our beliefs are not who we are. and it seems like when you let go of all of the lies, that you find the real you somewhere underneath. the world is full of lies that hurt us.


And this same "ego" is the force that drives people to seek any welfare for themselves in the first place.
Without an "ego", people simply wouldn't care what they do or what happens to them.

i disagree, and take it from someone who has been very self-destructive, and realized that if you really care about others, then you will care about yourself.

We need a Mod here to edit the title of this thread; there's little logical argument happening.

yeah, why don't you call the title police, nark. lighten up.

The fact of evolution precludes the intervention of a God. They are mutually exclusive explanations. Evolution needs no outside director, that is it's power as a theory.

this sounds like you think of god as a human, or like a human, and god is not.

i can't see a "preclude" or an "intervention" in a realm where there is no time.

yeah, why don't you call the title police, nark. lighten up.

lol

Wow.
I can't say that I've ever seen an ad hominem before with a typo.

lol

It's no wonder you're a Theist.

Alas, I won't resort to pointless name-calling; some of us aren't children.

yeah...I'm not following you.
There is no time in the spirtual dimension. True
on creation...your thinkings seems abstract.

well, given that there is no beginning or end, and so the bible only is relevant to a small window of time that is not really a constraint, but only a perceived one, then i think a lot of people are assuming the wrong thing about genesis.

lol

Wow.
I can't say that I've ever seen an ad hominem before with a typo.

lol

It's no wonder you're a Theist.

Alas, I won't resort to pointless name-calling; some of us aren't children.

here's an idea...

why don't you actually offer something to the discussion besides an attack?

consider it a challenge. and btw, i am not only a theist, i am a human being, a woman, and a fairly kind person who is wondering what i ever did to you to make you so hostile. ok, no i'm not. i know that your hostility towards me is nothing but a show of insecurity, disrespect, human indecency, and what the psychologists like to call sociopathy. this is a discussion forum; check into it.

here's an idea...

why don't you actually offer something to the discussion besides an attack?

consider it a challenge. and btw, i am not only a theist, i am a human being, a woman, and a fairly kind person who is wondering what i ever did to you to make you so hostile. ok, no i'm not. i know that your hostility towards me is nothing but a show of insecurity, disrespect, human indecency, and what the psychologists like to call sociopathy. this is a discussion forum; check into it.

Again you display nothing but a pedantic misunderstanding. A fine example of how low this site has sunk as of late. This is actually a forum for reasonable discussion, something that you are apparently entirely incapable of, or blissfully ignorant of.

Unlike you, who started this thread, I have done nothing but attempt to reign this thread into some semblance of reasonable discussion. As most theists are wont to do, you've done nothing but fall back upon emotive platitudes, having nothing at all to do with logic.

As far as your personal attacks go, I've already made my comment. If you'd like a link to a Dictionary of Philosophy, I would be happy to provide one for you.

Unlike you, I do not need a metaphysical safety blanket to get through my day. And since you've brought up psychology, I suggest you look into delusions, I'm sure it would be of great assistance to you. Although I somehow doubt you would see the relevance.

p.s.: An essential part of being a theist is humility; look into it.

well, given that there is no beginning or end, and so the bible only is relevant to a small window of time that is not really a constraint, but only a perceived one, then i think a lot of people are assuming the wrong thing about genesis.

That's why I'm not following you.
We really don't know how long those days in Genesis were.
But while God is infinite in both direction the Earth is not.
Clearly the Earth has been here more than 12,000 year, 6,000 years and etc.
Creation was completed. That's the purpose of the "seven" days to symbolize a complete period of them and it's used enough time in the bible to know that it is symbolic. Seven is complet in the Bible...

Quite simplly if creation is continuing and it wasn't "good" like the bible indicates then this would be contradiction. It wouldn't be complete.

Evolution is the process by which God is creating us.

Will evolution remain a natural force?

Will evolution remain a natural force?

atheists are theists too, they just call god a force, like in star wars. what is a natural force? how does it work?

atheists are theists too, they just call god a force, like in star wars. what is a natural force? how does it work?


Incorrect. Not all atheists have such a 'force' they believe in.

natural forces created humans and everything and they maintain everything... so how are they different from god(s)?

that's right... natural force is just a modern word for magic, miracle or god. it's whatwedontunderstand.

natural forces created humans and everything and they maintain everything... so how are they different from god(s)?

that's right... natural force is just a modern word for magic, miracle or god. it's whatwedontunderstand.

It's what we don't yet understand.

And I fail to see any necessity to imply teleology.
Simply because a process occurs, doesn't mean that it is directed.

That's why I'm not following you.
We really don't know how long those days in Genesis were.
But while God is infinite in both direction the Earth is not.
Clearly the Earth has been here more than 12,000 year, 6,000 years and etc.
Creation was completed. That's the purpose of the "seven" days to symbolize a complete period of them and it's used enough time in the bible to know that it is symbolic. Seven is complet in the Bible...

Quite simplly if creation is continuing and it wasn't "good" like the bible indicates then this would be contradiction. It wouldn't be complete.

well ok, maybe there is a diffence between creation and adaptation then, but he's definitely not finished. my point of view is that he may be finished when we are eternal...when we are perfect. then again, there has to be more to it than that, if there is no end. i'm glad you brought up the point that we don't know what those 7 days has been comprised of, because the underlying idea for this blog is that in my opinion, a lot of people who believe the bible, really don't understand it, and a lot of people who don't believe, take their word for it. these people are so grounded in their arguements, they've lost their sight.

Will evolution remain a natural force?

i was just wondering that earlier...

if there would ever be a state of existence reached, where there was perfect balance. no death, no destruction necessary, in a state of eternal existance.

it seems to be what god is working towards; that is where all of our hope lies.

natural forces created humans and everything and they maintain everything... so how are they different from god(s)?

that's right... natural force is just a modern word for magic, miracle or god. it's whatwedontunderstand.

i love it when you make one long word out of several separate smaller words.

Incorrect. Not all atheists have such a 'force' they believe in.

I only believe in myself, nothing more.

I only believe in myself, nothing more.

you're a force.

well ok, maybe there is a diffence between creation and adaptation then, but he's definitely not finished. my point of view is that he may be finished when we are eternal...when we are perfect. then again, there has to be more to it than that, if there is no end. i'm glad you brought up the point that we don't know what those 7 days has been comprised of, because the underlying idea for this blog is that in my opinion, a lot of people who believe the bible, really don't understand it, and a lot of people who don't believe, take their word for it. these people are so grounded in their arguements, they've lost their sight.

well I think correcting a error in the creation is not the same as finishing it.
When he completed those seven days everything was perfect and some one came and unraveled the whole thing.

Frankly I'm surprised your' not one of those "6 days" people. it's intresting to see someone who isn't convinced the king of eternity need to rush through the entire process. These people have no idea how an artist works...Why rush...there is no dead line.

well, given that there is no beginning or end, and so the bible only is relevant to a small window of time that is not really a constraint, but only a perceived one, then i think a lot of people are assuming the wrong thing about genesis.

The bible is the perceived word of god by some, which means that genesis is also perceived. Can you offer any facts ?

It's what we don't yet understand.

according to science, natural laws control everything, so if we don't understand them we understand nothing. and since we have understood nothing for thousands of years, what makes us think that we can understand something else in the future? after all... even if we figure out the cause of natural laws, we have to explain what caused THAT cause, ad infinitum.

and so, we say that god (the causeless cause) explains and causes everything.

And I fail to see any necessity to imply teleology.
Simply because a process occurs, doesn't mean that it is directed.

it's very obvious that all creatures have a design. i fail to see the need to invent something weird like 'natural laws'. we aren't controlled by mindless natural laws, so why would animals? and if animals are controlled by the mind, why would plants and matter be any different?

Frankly I'm surprised your' not one of those "6 days" people. it's intresting to see someone who isn't convinced the king of eternity need to rush through the entire process.

to say that god created the universe 6000 years ago is not too far from the truth... but it's even closer to say that he created it 7 seconds ago. the present is a zero point where everything begins and ends at the same time. alpha and omega.

You guys don't get it.
Evolution isn't a process that "changes" or causes life to change. It's an explanation of how lifeforms that are able to exploit the environment survive, and change when the environment changes, including when they change it.

It explains what life is, and why it evolves the way it does. It's called "Origin of Species", because it explains why speciation occurs.

Could you try that again in more laymen terms Yorda

according to science, natural laws control everything, so if we don't understand them we understand nothing. and since we have understood nothing for thousands of years, what makes us think that we can understand something else in the future? after all... even if we figure out the cause of natural laws, we have to explain what caused THAT cause, ad infinitum.
and so, we say that god (the causeless cause) explains and causes everything.
So you're quite happy to stop at God as the original cause... that has no cause?
All you're doing with "God did it" is pushing the question back a step further.

So... who caused God?

it's very obvious that all creatures have a design."Very obvious" to who? And who is this "design" by?
If it is design by evolution... then the design is nothing but adaptation to the environment.
Or are you implying a designer other than the environment?

i fail to see the need to invent something weird like 'natural laws'.But you're okay to invent something weird called "God"?

we aren't controlled by mindless natural laws, so why would animals? and if animals are controlled by the mind, why would plants and matter be any different?An eductation in Biology might help answer this to some degree.
And please indicate your evidence for saying that we "aren't controlled by mindless natural laws".
And you do realise that humans ARE just animals... albeit animals who have risen above the others in terms of intellect and self-awareness.

to say that god created the universe 6000 years ago is not too far from the truth... but it's even closer to say that he created it 7 seconds ago. the present is a zero point where everything begins and ends at the same time. alpha and omega.Eh?
:confused:

That's why I'm not following you.
We really don't know how long those days in Genesis were.
But while God is infinite in both direction the Earth is not.
Clearly the Earth has been here more than 12,000 year, 6,000 years and etc.
Creation was completed. That's the purpose of the "seven" days to symbolize a complete period of them and it's used enough time in the bible to know that it is symbolic. Seven is complet in the Bible...

Quite simplly if creation is continuing and it wasn't "good" like the bible indicates then this would be contradiction. It wouldn't be complete.

What logic. The definition of a day is approximately 24 hours,The seven days is symbolic. Why ? Why does the bible not give a straightforward figure. ?
How do you know god is infinite in both directions ? Is he not multidirectional ?

So, according to your view, seven days is symbolic because you accept that the earth is more than 6, 000 years old. It follows that a day must have been something of the order of 4.6 billion years/7. That one hell of a long day.

Now Methusulah lived for about 1.000 years ,so on your timescale he actually lived for 365, 000 X ( 4.6 billion/ 7 ) days. What symbolism is at work here ? It's all very confusing, but I'm sure you have an answer.

Why are you asking me again?
Are you bored, little Miles?

Why are you asking me again?
Are you bored, little Miles?

Yet another unassailable answer. You didn't spot the mistake in my arithmetic.

The appearance of the first homonids was about 6 million years ago.Let's call them Adam and Eve just for a laugh. So creation was complete 4.5 billion -6million years ago, scarcely worth taking into account.

Why should I be bored. You are the type who comes to my door selling Jesus and their book of fairy tales.They usually have the good sense to depart after I ask them a few questions which they cannot answer, Their smiles usually turn to scowls wheras your words turn into insults. You cannot walk away on this forum, so you come up with more and more stupid non-answers to avoid losing face, failing to recognize that you have already done so.

No doubt there is some symbolic language in the bible which proves that. in Methusalah's time a day was much shorter that 24 hours. It all sound a bit arbitrary to a rational mind but you, of course, know better.

How about a sensible response as opposed to your usual invective ? Otherwise, ignore what I have written !

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8215/nemodorymj8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Do you need some attention from your Uncle SaQ, Miles?
Huh?
Do ya?
Do ya?
Do ya?

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8215/nemodorymj8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Do you need some attention from your Uncle SaQ, Miles?
Huh?
Do ya?
Do ya?
Do ya?

Your answers get better all the time. You are terrified of letting go of your biblical comfort blanket.

I have no further need of you at present because I have shown that you talk nonsense, which was my objective. Others are less likely to be talen in, once they have seen the contradiction I have pointed out.

Your god really behaves in a arbitrary manner. You put a long day in, you take a short day out, you take a normal day and you shake it all about.

What a blessing it is to have you on hand to explain god's mysteries.

THanks for taking time off from your computer games to give me such a full answer. Your efforts are appreciated. Bye for now.

Well I try...

well I think correcting a error in the creation is not the same as finishing it.
When he completed those seven days everything was perfect and some one came and unraveled the whole thing.

Frankly I'm surprised your' not one of those "6 days" people. it's intresting to see someone who isn't convinced the king of eternity need to rush through the entire process. These people have no idea how an artist works...Why rush...there is no dead line.

it is if the error was made on purpose. i was thinking, what if the seven days aren't over. what if you implied omnipresence to the scripture? we could still be in the sixth day, with the seventh being the millenial reign of christ. or it's whenever the "perfection", or the eternal lives of the human race is achieved?

it seems logical to me that the beginning of the bible is not the beginning and the end of it not the end. i think we've been told what we need to know not everything there is to know. a window into a generation of our development.

well, because it's happened to me that way

If it happened to you that way, does this mean it has or will happen for everyone else that way as well?

it's intresting to see someone who isn't convinced the king of eternity need to rush through the entire process. These people have no idea how an artist works...Why rush...there is no dead line.

True, hence the use of evolution as Gods' means of creative process.;)

True, hence the use of evolution as Gods' means of creative process.;)

You are simply piling one speculation upon another. Where is the foundation? Evolutionary theory is opposed to the notion of a creator; it stands on a solid foundaton of scientific evidence.

Your form of reasoning is based on ifs and buts. For example,

If a unicorn existed it would have the following characteristics. Here insert whatever you consider makes you feel good.

As it is invisible, that shows that gods does not want us to see it. Such a sight is only granted to the priveliged few.

But how do I know there are such creatures, dad ?

Because it says so in this book . Have faith and you will understand why god does not want you to see unicorns.

And so on, and so on. That is not reasoning; it is idle speculation

If it happened to you that way, does this mean it has or will happen for everyone else that way as well?

well, i don't know why god would treat me any different. but think about it...

how can you really KNOW anything unless you experience it? you just can't.

it's like the difference between getting a degree and on the job training. and yeah, you can observe, study, and draw conclusions. like with gravity, you'll drop a few objects off the side of a building and decide it may not be wise to jump off yourself, but unless you do you'll never know what it feels like to fall.

this sounds like you think of god as a human, or like a human, and god is not.

i can't see a "preclude" or an "intervention" in a realm where there is no time.

It applies no matter how one conceptualizes God. There is simply nothing for Him to do.

I cannot envision any "realm" where there is no time. Everything in our universe seems to be subject to time, otherwise there would be no time in which actions could occur.

You are simply piling one speculation upon another. Where is the foundation? Evolutionary theory is opposed to the notion of a creator; it stands on a solid foundaton of scientific evidence.

Your form of reasoning is based on ifs and buts. For example,

If a unicorn existed it would have the following characteristics. Here insert whatever you consider makes you feel good.

As it is invisible, that shows that gods does not want us to see it. Such a sight is only granted to the priveliged few.

But how do I know there are such creatures, dad ?

Because it says so in this book . Have faith and you will understand why god does not want you to see unicorns.

And so on, and so on. That is not reasoning; it is idle speculation


you're assuming that god can be seen. god isn't a unicorn. god isn't a man, but some people look at the order and perfection in the universe and it's law, and see god. you're assuming that god can't be seen. if his spiritual form is visible in the spiritual realm, then why would you expect to see him now? and if you believe that his physical form walked the earth, then unless he walked right past you, how would you see him? what is it you expect to see exactly?

It applies no matter how one conceptualizes God. There is simply nothing for Him to do.

I cannot envision any "realm" where there is no time. Everything in our universe seems to be subject to time, otherwise there would be no time in which actions could occur.

There is a lot for god to do. For a start, he can clean up this bloody mess he created

you're assuming that god can be seen. god isn't a unicorn. god isn't a man, but some people look at the order and perfection in the universe and it's law, and see god. you're assuming that god can't be seen. if his spiritual form is visible in the spiritual realm, then why would you expect to see him now? and if you believe that his physical form walked the earth, then unless he walked right past you, how would you see him? what is it you expect to see exactly?

You are missing my point ? What and where is the spiritual realm ? How do you know his spiritual form can be seen there ? Have you seen him in the accepted sense of that word. I believe you are simply speculating.

well, i don't know why god would treat me any different.

How come that for so many people, it just does not happen that they would "experience God"?

Are they evil?
Are they insincere?
Are they deluded?
Just haven't tried hard enough?
It is not their fault?
God has a special plan for them?


Any answer a theist gives to the question How come that for so many people, it just does not happen that they would "experience God"? puts those people into a no-win situation.

They either have to believe that they are evil, deluded, insincere, just that haven't tried hard enough, that it isn't their fault or that there is some special plan for them. All of these options are such that they disempower the person.
No wonder some people become insane when they try to "experience God".


Lori, what do you want to accomplish by having started this thread?

it is if the error was made on purpose. i was thinking, what if the seven days aren't over. what if you implied omnipresence to the scripture? we could still be in the sixth day, with the seventh being the millenial reign of christ. or it's whenever the "perfection", or the eternal lives of the human race is achieved?

it seems logical to me that the beginning of the bible is not the beginning and the end of it not the end. i think we've been told what we need to know not everything there is to know. a window into a generation of our development.

Actually...You have corrected me Lori.
The Creative Days aren't over.
Every day ended in the bible quiet clearly except for the last day which is the Day or rest or the Sabbath. The bible does say we are continuing in the Great Sabbath. I must have forgotton. But the other days, the time of work is indeed over.

You know Lori, Strangely there are some intresting parrallels to Jesus here. Jesus showed the Pharaseies that somethimes it is necessary to work even on a day of rest. Emergencies arrise that require action. Providing his son and preparing the way for him through Isreal required much work on the angel's part. But it was necessary, I guess for our own sake. That's an intresting perspective.

and While the error wasn't made by God on Purpose it was on Adam And Eves part. As Neo said in Reloaded. The problem was choice.

True, hence the use of evolution as Gods' means of creative process.;)


I would agree with you if it were possible to prove evolution actually did ...anything.

according to science, natural laws control everything, ...

Depending on what you mean by "natural laws", but essentially, correct.


...
so if we don't understand them we understand nothing.


Correct.


...
and since we have understood nothing for thousands of years, what makes us think that we can understand something else in the future?

An incorrect assumption. We understand many things. As for understanding the future, all we have to do is apply inductive reasoning.



after all... even if we figure out the cause of natural laws, we have to explain what caused THAT cause, ad infinitum.

Not at all. That would be the case if one was in support of a Foundationalist theory of the Scientific Method (SM). Infinite regress is avoided by adopting a more flexible methodology, open to revision, and not dependent upon some a priori axiom, as contemporary SM does.



and so, we say that god (the causeless cause) explains and causes everything.

Theists do.



it's very obvious that all creatures have a design.
...

It is fallacious to assume that a design implies a designer.



...
i fail to see the need to invent something weird like 'natural laws'.


There is no need, merely a pragmatic utility.



... we aren't controlled by mindless natural laws,
...

I would say we are.



...
so why would animals? and if animals are controlled by the mind, why would plants and matter be any different?

ibid




to say that god created the universe 6000 years ago is not too far from the truth... but it's even closer to say that he created it 7 seconds ago. the present is a zero point where everything begins and ends at the same time. alpha and omega.

I fail to see how temporal ontology implies a deity.

Actually...You have corrected me Lori.
The Creative Days aren't over.
Every day ended in the bible quiet clearly except for the last day which is the Day or rest or the Sabbath. The bible does say we are continuing in the Great Sabbath. I must have forgotton. But the other days, the time of work is indeed over.

You know Lori, Strangely there are some intresting parrallels to Jesus here. Jesus showed the Pharaseies that somethimes it is necessary to work even on a day of rest. Emergencies arrise that require action. Providing his son and preparing the way for him through Isreal required much work on the angel's part. But it was necessary, I guess for our own sake. That's an intresting perspective.

and While the error wasn't made by God on Purpose it was on Adam And Eves part. As Neo said in Reloaded. The problem was choice.


From what starting point do you arrive at these conclusions ? There are so many assumptions that I wonder how you can possibly believe what you say.

If you believe in an all-powerful god ,then don't blame Adam and Eve for being the way god may them. They had no choice.

I would agree with you if it were possible to prove evolution actually did ...anything.

Why do you think evolution "does" nothing ?

All you're doing with "God did it" is pushing the question back a step further.

All physical explanations/causes (like Big Bang) just push the question back a step further. God is different because he's not physical, so he doesn't need a cause. We invented God because we understood nothing, and nothing is the only thing that is not physical, so it doesn't need a cause.

"Very obvious" to who?

even to little children.

And who is this "design" by?

life. the spirit that is in matter. god.

And you do realise that humans ARE just animals... albeit animals who have risen above the others in terms of intellect and self-awareness.

humans are not animals because we are too different from them... the same way that animals are not plants because they are too different from them.

I cannot envision any "realm" where there is no time.

envision the present moment.

Why does the bible not give a straightforward figure. ?

because god didn't create the universe in the past, he is continually creating (changing) it in the timeless now. there are 7 days in a week. we work for 6 days and rest the 7th.

god created the world in 7 elements. but the 3 elements are different from the 4.

What and where is the spiritual realm ?

it's all around us, but we can't see it until our physical bodies die.

I would say we are.

then we would have no free will.

then we would have no free will.

Depending on how you define 'free will', but provisionally, yes, I agree.

From what starting point do you arrive at these conclusions ? There are so many assumptions that I wonder how you can possibly believe what you say.

If you believe in an all-powerful god ,then don't blame Adam and Eve for being the way god may them. They had no choice.

Why is that important for you to know?

Evolution is the process by which God is creating us.

Why would prop up a scientific theory with a fairy tale?

All physical explanations/causes (like Big Bang) just push the question back a step further. God is different because he's not physical, so he doesn't need a cause. We invented God because we understood nothing, and nothing is the only thing that is not physical, so it doesn't need a cause. Oookay.
Am I missing something?
Are you poking fun?
Has the joke whistled over my balding head?

even to little children.Yes, the uneducated little childern.

life. the spirit that is in matter. god.Ah - so you define God as "life"?
Okay - but why call it God?

humans are not animals because we are too different from them... the same way that animals are not plants because they are too different from them.LOL!! Now I know you're just having a laugh.

Almost had me there for a moment! :D

Why is that important for you to know?

Are you suggesting that you'll only answer a question is someone proves tpo you that the answer is imoortant to them ?

Well, that's one way of avoiding haviung the nonsensense youi talk being challenged, I just wonder how anyone can believe in Genesis, suitably interpreted to suit his purpose, angels and all the rest. You realize that a spin could be put on any passage in the bible tomake it mean what one wants, which is what you are doing.

Would you like me to explain how to turn gang rape in the OT into a tea party? You can also email head office for advice , in your normal maner.

Why would prop up a scientific theory with a fairy tale?

I take it you know that you won't get a straight answer unless you have more luck with these characters than I do. First, they reject Darwin but, when the tide of informed opinion turns against them, they pull another rabbit out of the hat. Evolution is now god's way of doing things, despite which it doesn't invalidate Genesis. God rested on the seventh day as the bible says and this PROVES that his work wasn't finished.

All physical explanations/causes (like Big Bang) just push the question back a step further. God is different because he's not physical, so he doesn't need a cause. We invented God because we understood nothing, and nothing is the only thing that is not physical, so it doesn't need a cause.



even to little children.



life. the spirit that is in matter. god.



humans are not animals because we are too different from them... the same way that animals are not plants because they are too different from them.



envision the present moment.



because god didn't create the universe in the past, he is continually creating (changing) it in the timeless now. there are 7 days in a week. we work for 6 days and rest the 7th.

god created the world in 7 elements. but the 3 elements are different from the 4.



it's all around us, but we can't see it until our physical bodies die.



then we would have no free will.

So how come you know about the spiritual realm if you are not dead, which I assume you are not ?

3 is definitely different from 4 . What is your point ?

Actually...You have corrected me Lori.
The Creative Days aren't over.
Every day ended in the bible quiet clearly except for the last day which is the Day or rest or the Sabbath. The bible does say we are continuing in the Great Sabbath. I must have forgotton. But the other days, the time of work is indeed over.

You know Lori, Strangely there are some intresting parrallels to Jesus here. Jesus showed the Pharaseies that somethimes it is necessary to work even on a day of rest. Emergencies arrise that require action. Providing his son and preparing the way for him through Isreal required much work on the angel's part. But it was necessary, I guess for our own sake. That's an intresting perspective.

and While the error wasn't made by God on Purpose it was on Adam And Eves part. As Neo said in Reloaded. The problem was choice.


On reflection. don't bother, i,e,. avoid, answering my question. It is implicit in your post that you are not a man to be argued with. You have the angels on your side.

Where is Lori?

I concern myself with life and living not death and whatever lies beyond.

Where is Lori?

In the spiritual dimension ? I'm sure he'll be back later.

It applies no matter how one conceptualizes God. There is simply nothing for Him to do.

I cannot envision any "realm" where there is no time. Everything in our universe seems to be subject to time, otherwise there would be no time in which actions could occur.

maybe he doesn't do. maybe he just is.

just because you can't envision it doesn't mean it can't be. i can't envision it either. i can't understand infinity, or something not having a beginning or an end. but if god is omnipresent, then doesn't that imply that he is not subject to a time constraint? i don't think we have the capacity to understand what god is and what he can do. and i don't think that calling him a "he" helps any.

How come that for so many people, it just does not happen that they would "experience God"?

Are they evil?
Are they insincere?
Are they deluded?
Just haven't tried hard enough?
It is not their fault?
God has a special plan for them?


Any answer a theist gives to the question How come that for so many people, it just does not happen that they would "experience God"? puts those people into a no-win situation.

They either have to believe that they are evil, deluded, insincere, just that haven't tried hard enough, that it isn't their fault or that there is some special plan for them. All of these options are such that they disempower the person.
No wonder some people become insane when they try to "experience God".


Lori, what do you want to accomplish by having started this thread?


the only thing you have to do to experience or know god is to want to, so the people who haven't, haven't really wanted to. i think a lot of people are afraid of what it will mean, and that it's just too consequential, or they want to put limits and constraints on him, or don't have the right intentions toward gaining the knowledge. i think it's dangerous if your intentions aren't sincere and humble and pure. i think in this life ultimately, you get what you want so be careful about what it is that you want and why because he'll give it to you. that's what satan's for.

you know, an experience that i've been through made me lose it for a while. i just had an almost impossible time reconciling what i was going through on the inside, with what was going on around me in the "real world". it's not all sunshine and teddy bears with him. he'll turn your life upside down and you need to be willing to deal with that i guess, and i think a lot of people aren't.

i started this thread just to make some people realize that it doesn't always have to be us against them, and just to offer a different perspective besides the one that's been beaten to death for forever. i wish people would get out of their boxes, and i wish people would stop being so concerned about being right, and more concerned with what actually is right. if more people would stop segregating and arguing, and came together and started seeking, maybe they would find the truth, instead of just beating the hell out of a dead horse.

Actually...You have corrected me Lori.
The Creative Days aren't over.
Every day ended in the bible quiet clearly except for the last day which is the Day or rest or the Sabbath. The bible does say we are continuing in the Great Sabbath. I must have forgotton. But the other days, the time of work is indeed over.

You know Lori, Strangely there are some intresting parrallels to Jesus here. Jesus showed the Pharaseies that somethimes it is necessary to work even on a day of rest. Emergencies arrise that require action. Providing his son and preparing the way for him through Isreal required much work on the angel's part. But it was necessary, I guess for our own sake. That's an intresting perspective.

and While the error wasn't made by God on Purpose it was on Adam And Eves part. As Neo said in Reloaded. The problem was choice.

there's NO WAY he can be done creating man, we're WAY too f'd up! we're not going to stay this way. i think that when he's done with us, we will live forever. there will be no death because there will be no sin, and we will live forever in a paradise of perfect balance and equilibrium. it would make more sense to me if the 1000 year reign of christ was the day of rest. but i don't know if jesus would see it that way. it sounds like he'll have his work to do.

but the problem is not a choice if it's all part of the plan. god wanted us to experience sin and the consequences of it. he wanted us to KNOW what it's like to experience good and evil, and that way we can make a choice to live in his law forever. otherwise we would just be puppets, and we wouldn't be making choices, just following orders. i honestly think that when we come to live forever in perfection, that it will be because we all actually choose to do the right thing all of the time. can you imagine such a thing? i think i can...

From what starting point do you arrive at these conclusions ? There are so many assumptions that I wonder how you can possibly believe what you say.

If you believe in an all-powerful god ,then don't blame Adam and Eve for being the way god may them. They had no choice.

yes they did, but the choice is imperative to the plan. how do we learn?

Where is Lori?

i'm sorry, yesterday was a big day. i had to vote in the morning, and work all day, and then go to class all night. i'm getting certified to become a foster mom. :)

yes they did, but the choice is imperative to the plan. how do we learn?

Nothing to be learned if god hadn't made a mess in the first place and then conveniently blamed it on others.He had a second try when he sent the deluge but he still didn't get it right. So now he's trying again. It's about time he realized his limitations and gave up.

yes they did, but the choice is imperative to the plan. how do we learn?

If the choice is imperative to the plan they had no choice, God wanted it that way, so that's the way it had to be.

maybe he doesn't do. maybe he just is.

just because you can't envision it doesn't mean it can't be. i can't envision it either. i can't understand infinity, or something not having a beginning or an end. but if god is omnipresent, then doesn't that imply that he is not subject to a time constraint? i don't think we have the capacity to understand what god is and what he can do. and i don't think that calling him a "he" helps any.

How about we call it "it"? How about we call it "space-time"? What if all you are talking about are natural laws that interact to form coherent structures? It seems to me the height of human ego to postulate a anthropomorphic thing that's responsible for everything.

Maybe if you don't understand something, you should wait until a valid explanation comes along, not invent some intellectual shortcut that precludes further examination?

Are you suggesting that you'll only answer a question is someone proves tpo you that the answer is imoortant to them ?



Someone? I mean you.
I'm suggesting why engage in futility, you?

Someone? I mean you.
I'm suggesting why engage in futility, you?

You are being evasive as usal because you cannot defend the crap you espouse. What does evolution do ? Get the ( wrong ) answer on any Creationist site. Alternatively, reply when you have taken the trouble to understand what evolution is all about. It may, of course , be beyond you.

Why me ? Look back at some of your posts and you will see that you never offer any evidence to support your utterances. You will not give a staraight answer to anyone because you are so emotionally involved in your superestition that you cannot afford to admit you might be wrong. That's what I call the confidence of the ignorant.

Stick to your fairytales. Unlike most of humankind ,you are unlikely to grow up.

That's right I'm being evasive.
Evading a futile discussion with you.

That's right I'm being evasive.
Evading a futile discussion with you.

And the whole world knows why. Your reputation for arrogance, unsupported statements and ignoring facts is growing on this site. Ask around !

And the whole world knows why. Your reputation for arrogance, unsupported statements and ignoring facts is growing on this site. Ask around !

Myles...these so called facts are skin deep. There is nothing definite about anything in this universe.

And the whole world knows why. Your reputation for arrogance, unsupported statements and ignoring facts is growing on this site. Ask around !

Arrogance is what this forum seems to be made of.
In any case avoiding futility isn't arrogant it's logical. Your Hissy Fit Thread in the Site Feedback reiterates that you have a severe lack of perspective of just about everything. You lack self control and have demonstrated your weakeness on numerous occasions. You have a personality conflict with me. I'm not going to fight someone as dense as a brick wall. What would be the point. I allow your flawed human instincts to draw the rope that hangs you. There is no effort on my part and I'm entertained at the same time.:D

You're a waste of time, Miles. If that time is to be wasted I prefer to do so on my terms.

Arrogance is what this forum seems to be made of.
In any case avoiding futility isn't arrogant it's logical. Your Hissy Fit Thread in the Site Feedback reiterates that you have a severe lack of perspective of just about everything. You lack self control and have demonstrated your weakeness on numerous occasions. You have a personality conflict with me. I'm not going to fight someone as dense as a brick wall. What would be the point. I allow your flawed human instincts to draw the rope that hangs you. There is no effort on my part and I'm entertained at the same time.:D

You're a waste of time, Miles. If that time is to be wasted I prefer to do so on my terms.

Back to the ad homs. Wounded pride ( goeth before the fall ), deadly sin. Your evaluation is of no interest to me. Carry on, you are doing a fine job,.

I thought this was Sciforums?...not Dawsons Creek....Oh well:shrug:

Don't take it personaly, it's just a frank analysis of obvious aberrant behavior.
You ask
I give.

I thought this was Sciforums?...not Dawsons Creek....Oh well:shrug:

Yes, Theres nothing like a stalker to make things intresting.

Nothing to be learned if god hadn't made a mess in the first place and then conveniently blamed it on others.He had a second try when he sent the deluge but he still didn't get it right. So now he's trying again. It's about time he realized his limitations and gave up.

would you want to be a puppet or a drone that did not understand the laws underwhich you live? how can you make a choice then? there would be no choice, or you would choose the wrong thing because you didn't know any better. do you believe that it's possible for everyone to choose the right thing all the time? i think that if we did, we would live forever. i think it's possible, but only if we learn what the right thing is and why.

If the choice is imperative to the plan they had no choice, God wanted it that way, so that's the way it had to be.

god wanted them to have a choice, and they made it. why can't it be both ways? he just knew what they would choose before they chose it because he's omniscient and omnipresent, and all that jazz.

Lori, is there any specific information you've seen that implies God is omnipresent.
I ask because my study of the bible shows that he has a specific location.

Yorda seems to be drawing similar conclusions as yourself.

If you have a huge maze that only has one exit, but millions and millions of twists and turns, and you drop a mouse in there, does it matter what choices the mouse makes along the road to the exit? There's only one inevitable outcome for it, no?

How can it be choice for humans if, before we're even born, that inevitable outcome is already set n stone? Is that choice, or the illusion of choice?

Or, heh, maybe this: Would you consider being plugged into the Matrix freedom?

Typicaly a maze has only one path to the exit.
Biblically speaking there is two. Life and Death.

The Matrix was a good example of how the choices we make allow our outcomes to be predictable....almost mathematical.

"If you already know what I'm going to do how can I make the choice?"
"Because you already made the choice, now you have to understand why you made it?"

Behavior dictates our future. That's consequences.
Even in the Matrix the answer to the intial flaws of the program were to add choice.
However choice eventually causes a system wide error.

Very Powerful symbolism...notice what the solution was in the end to both problems.

Don't take it personaly, it's just a frank analysis of obvious aberrant behavior.
You ask
I give.



Yes, Theres nothing like a stalker to make things intresting.

You mean a deerstalker, Sherlock.

Do I take it personally ? You are joking, I take it.Some of your better efforts

Matthew begins with the word history...look and see what you said to three of us who said you were wrong, You weaseled oue later by saying you equated history with genealogy, Remember your copy of the bible which differed fro the St James' version, the Vulgate and the Greek NT ? You never diid reveal your source because......


Then you claim Darwin said monkeys mutate into men, When asked for a source, you resorted to personal abuse.

Next, you suggest evolution does nothing.

Jesus did't work on the sabbath, ergo his creation is not finished, ergo that explains evolution, which according to you does nothing. That also explains why the seven days mentioned in Genesis must not be taken literally.

You have posted lots more of the same rubbish and still expect to be taken seriously. So you know what you can do with your analysis. It carries as much weight as your other crap. You show not the slightest sign of scholarship in what you write and get stroppy when you are contradicted.

I will leave it at that. Don't expect a response to your next tirade.

You mean a deerstalker, Sherlock.

Do I take it personally ? You are joking, I take it.Some of your better efforts

Matthew begins with the word history...look and see what you said to three of us who said you were wrong, You weaseled oue later by saying you equated history with genealogy, Remember your copy of the bible which differed fro the St James' version, the Vulgate and the Greek NT ? You never diid reveal your source because......


Then you claim Darwin said monkeys mutate into men, When asked for a source, you resorted to personal abuse.

Next, you suggest evolution does nothing.

Jesus did't work on the sabbath, ergo his creation is not finished, ergo that explains evolution, which according to you does nothing. That also explains why the seven days mentioned in Genesis must not be taken literally.

You have posted lots more of the same rubbish and still expect to be taken seriously. So you know what you can do with your analysis. It carries as much weight as your other crap. You show not the slightest sign of scholarship in what you write and get stroppy when you are contradicted.

I will leave it at that. Don't expect a response to your next tirade.

Your reasonings were all non sequitors.
Which isn't reasoning at all. Once someone with a prejudice devotes themselves to a continuos string of logical fallacies the disucsion has become futile. Sad and pathetic.

You simply don't have the mind for logic.
Emotion clouds your reasoning.
You lack self control.


I will always expect a respone from you. You are incapable of doing otherwise, emotional and impulsive.

god wanted them to have a choice, and they made it. why can't it be both ways? he just knew what they would choose before they chose it because he's omniscient and omnipresent, and all that jazz.

If he knew in advance then surely you can see that he left them no choice. Had they acted differently, god would not be omniscient. He would have nade a mistake

Lori, is there any specific information you've seen that implies God is omnipresent.
I ask because my study of the bible shows that he has a specific location.

Yorda seems to be drawing similar conclusions as yourself.

well, it seems that the holy spirit can communicate to anyone and everyone at the same time. i have actually been filled with the spirit while talking to a man who was also filled with the spirit, and this man conveyed a message to me that he had no idea about what it meant. i know he speculated, but was wrong, because i did know what it really meant. he did know though that it wasn't his message. he knows when the spirit is talking through him, as it's a fairly common occurrance. i remember he's been doing it since i was a child.

Oh I see.

Lori,

An evolutionary process is mutually exclusive to a god driven process. Evolution is a natural and unguided process. To say that a god is directing evolution is a contradiction in terms.

Either evolution is the process by which we have arrived or something else is the cause. They cannot be mixed.

Now perhaps we could speculate that a god sowed the first seed of life and then allowed evolution to take it from there, but then issues of prayer would have no meaning since evolution does not respond to prayer and if a god did intervene frequently and has a master plan then that would again not be evolutionary.

If you accept the fact that evolution has occurred and is occurring then you must also accept that gods play no part in our daily lives.

If he knew in advance then surely you can see that he left them no choice. Had they acted differently, god would not be omniscient. He would have nade a mistake

i know this is hard to conceptualize. we have free will, but god can know the choices that we make before we make them because time is not a constraint for him. i'm pretty sure this has even been a concept in movies. if you move forward in time, then you can see the future. he doesn't even have to move forward. he sees everything all at once. it's like being able to see the end of a chess game. he won't make your moves for you, but he'll definitely win.

Gods a cheater?

If you have a huge maze that only has one exit, but millions and millions of twists and turns, and you drop a mouse in there, does it matter what choices the mouse makes along the road to the exit? There's only one inevitable outcome for it, no?

How can it be choice for humans if, before we're even born, that inevitable outcome is already set n stone? Is that choice, or the illusion of choice?

Or, heh, maybe this: Would you consider being plugged into the Matrix freedom?


i don't know about the matrix. law is the only constant, and because he has created it, he will have his way in the end. but you get to choose what you do in regards to that. it seems to me that you choose whether you want to exist or not, and if so, or until you don't anymore, you choose how you do it.

Gods a cheater?

a creator. his powers are inherent, and he always acts in our best interest.

life isn't a chess game. it's a learning exercise. it's the development of you.

Lori,

well, it seems that the holy spirit can communicate to anyone and everyone at the same time. i have actually been filled with the spirit while talking to a man who was also filled with the spirit, and this man conveyed a message to me that he had no idea about what it meant. i know he speculated, but was wrong, because i did know what it really meant. he did know though that it wasn't his message. he knows when the spirit is talking through him, as it's a fairly common occurrance. i remember he's been doing it since i was a child.These are just emotions and a good chemistry between two people. There is no reason to suspect anything supernatural with such common occurrences.

Lori,

i know this is hard to conceptualize. we have free will, but god can know the choices that we make before we make them because time is not a constraint for him. i'm pretty sure this has even been a concept in movies. if you move forward in time, then you can see the future. he doesn't even have to move forward. he sees everything all at once. it's like being able to see the end of a chess game. he won't make your moves for you, but he'll definitely win.It doesn't matter whether he can move through time or not or what mechanism he might use, the fact remains that if your perceived choice is known before you make it then you have had no freedom to make a free choice. Whatever action you make would have been pre-determined. There can be no free choice if an omniscient god exists.

If such a being exists then you can only be an automaton playing out exactly all the actions the creator has determined you will do for your entire life. Whether you choose to follow the savior or die will have been determined long before you were ever born. What you would think of as free will would be an illusion.

Lori,

An evolutionary process is mutually exclusive to a god driven process. Evolution is a natural and unguided process. To say that a god is directing evolution is a contradiction in terms.

Either evolution is the process by which we have arrived or something else is the cause. They cannot be mixed.

Now perhaps we could speculate that a god sowed the first seed of life and then allowed evolution to take it from there, but then issues of prayer would have no meaning since evolution does not respond to prayer and if a god did intervene frequently and has a master plan then that would again not be evolutionary.

If you accept the fact that evolution has occurred and is occurring then you must also accept that gods play no part in our daily lives.


god creates the law that science discovers and documents. nothing happens outside of his law. nothing happens by "magic". nothing is "magic". not god, not anything. and even if something seems that way, it's only unexplainable, and only unexplainable because of our own limitations. we just haven't found out the science behind it yet. that doesn't mean there's no science behind it.

Lori,

These are just emotions and a good chemistry between two people. There is no reason to suspect anything supernatural with such common occurrences.

you have no idea what you're talking about. you weren't there. you aren't him. you aren't me. you have never experienced this type of thing. so how can you possible pretend to make some conclusion regarding it. chris, you just pulled that right out of your butt. :)

Lori,

It doesn't matter whether he can move through time or not or what mechanism he might use, the fact remains that if your perceived choice is known before you make it then you have had no freedom to make a free choice. Whatever action you make would have been pre-determined. There can be no free choice if an omniscient god exists.

If such a being exists then you can only be an automaton playing out exactly all the actions the creator has determined you will do for your entire life. Whether you choose to follow the savior or die will have been determined long before you were ever born. What you would think of as free will would be an illusion.

where in the world are you getting that known=determined?? if you were to travel forward in time, and you knew about a decision that i would make in an hour from now, would that mean that you were making that decision for me??

NO, IT WOULDN'T. :confused:

you have no idea what you're talking about. you weren't there. you aren't him. you aren't me. you have never experienced this type of thing. so how can you possible pretend to make some conclusion regarding it. chris, you just pulled that right out of your butt. :)

Why is it then that the holy spirit channels itself through some people and not others?

i know this is hard to conceptualize. we have free will, but god can know the choices that we make before we make them because time is not a constraint for him. i'm pretty sure this has even been a concept in movies. if you move forward in time, then you can see the future. he doesn't even have to move forward. he sees everything all at once. it's like being able to see the end of a chess game. he won't make your moves for you, but he'll definitely win.

It's not hard; it's impossible. Let's say god can do anything that people want him to, That removes the need for further discussion.

lori,

he always acts in our best interestThat cannot be true. If it were then a hell could not exist. It is not in anyone's best interest to be condemned to hell.

If he is omnipotent and if he truly always acted in our best interests then he could have created an environment where everyone would make the correct choices for life. Since he appears to be prepared to allow people to suffer and die in hell then he clearly does not act in everyone's best interest.

Why is it then that the holy spirit channels itself through some people and not others?

Those he chooses as channels are the chosen people, What a silly question. How dare you question god's ways, you miserable speck crawling about on the home god created for you,

Sheer ingratitude, that's what I call it. I think you owe god an apology or it's the lake of fire for you. ( rubs his hands in glee at the prospect of watching sinners suffering )

Lori,

where in the world are you getting that known=determined?? It is a necessary condition and paradox that would have to occur if manipulation of time were possible.

if you were to travel forward in time, and you knew about a decision that i would make in an hour from now, would that mean that you were making that decision for me??No. I would not be the factor that determines your action. But the fact that your action would be known before you made it means that you no longer would have any freedom to do anything else.

If the knowledge exists by whatever cause than that precludes you from having freedom of choice.

Those he chooses as channels are the chosen people, What a silly question. How dare you question god's ways, you miserable speck crawling about on the home god created for you,

Sheer ingratitude, that's what I call it. I think you owe god an apology or it's the lake of fire for you. ( rubs his hands in glee at the prospect of watching sinners suffering )

I'm sorry god...I'm sorry :bawl:

lori,

you have no idea what you're talking about. you weren't there. you aren't him. you aren't me. you have never experienced this type of thing. so how can you possible pretend to make some conclusion regarding it. chris, you just pulled that right out of your butt. Certainly I do not know the exact words but those experiences of shared emotions and experiences happen to all normal people frequently. You are just interpreting natural events with your excessive imagination.

where in the world are you getting that known=determined?? if you were to travel forward in time, and you knew about a decision that i would make in an hour from now, would that mean that you were making that decision for me??


Ok, let's establish where we are at right now..

You state that god, knowing every [perceived] choice that you will ever make, does not negate 'free will', that you are indeed still making a free choice.

We shall assume for the sake of this that god also has free will, the freedom to make specific choices. It is therefore valid to state that this god chose to create Adam and Eve. He did not choose to create say Bob and Jane or Mark and Mary, he chose specifically to create two beings knowing every single action they would ever do in their lives.

But he did not choose what those actions would be, he merely chose to create two people that would do specific things. They were created and could not have ever done anything else.

So what I will ask for the sake of discussion is why did he not create Bob and Jane instead? See, Bob and Jane both would have chosen differently. They would not have eaten the fruit and thus not caused the fall of man.

You cannot argue that they do not have free will, (your very argument is that they would have free will), even though god would know specifically in advance that these people would not completely fudge everything up.

So why