this one has been rattling around for awhile...

thermodynamics #2 says that entropy will always increase in a closed system. barring the divine, the universe is the ultimate closed system. and not only that but it's expanding, aiding in the system's descent into chaos.

people who subscribe to this picture of the universe- of which i am one- see the ultimate fate of the universe as a gradual heat death. everything crumbles into an energetic soup a minute fraction of a degree above absolute zero.

amidst this bath of chaos, ordered systems emerge, but none can totally escape the flow of entropy, save one... life.

life's sole aim is to propagate itself in hopes of combating the relentless tide of entropy. evolution does this fairly well. at the very least it keeps pace with the cosmological slide towards chaos. evolutionary milestones occur at about the same pace as geological ones, which are only slightly faster than cosmological ones.

that is until intelligence evolves. all life has intelligence, but after a certain threshold intelligence surpasses evolution's mechanisims of propagation, and begins to shape its own destiny.

cut to the beginning of the 21st century here on Earth. we are standing on the doorstep of a dramatically different era of human history. our technology, the mechanism that surpasses evolution's abilities, is about to open up unprecedented access to the raw materials and energies contained within our universe. this access provides us with the most powerful tool possible to outpace chaos, and sustain an environment in which we can literally live forever.

thus, wielding our sword of intelligence, and sharpening its edge with technology, we are the Soldiers of Order. it is our duty to battle chaos, in order to make certain that our universe doesn't become a failed experiment, but a flourishing habitat for any and all kinds of life.

and before anyone says it: yes, someone's been reading Kurzweil, but these thoughts of mine stirred well before that. he did me the great service of laying a technical framework, as well as helping on some philosophical issues.

thoughts?

this one has been rattling around for awhile...

thermodynamics #2 says that entropy will always increase in a closed system. barring the divine, the universe is the ultimate closed system. and not only that but it's expanding, aiding in the system's descent into chaos.

people who subscribe to this picture of the universe- of which i am one- see the ultimate fate of the universe as a gradual heat death. everything crumbles into an energetic soup a minute fraction of a degree above absolute zero.

amidst this bath of chaos, ordered systems emerge, but none can totally escape the flow of entropy, save one... life.

life's sole aim is to propagate itself in hopes of combating the relentless tide of entropy. evolution does this fairly well. at the very least it keeps pace with the cosmological slide towards chaos. evolutionary milestones occur at about the same pace as geological ones, which are only slightly faster than cosmological ones.

that is until intelligence evolves. all life has intelligence, but after a certain threshold intelligence surpasses evolution's mechanisims of propagation, and begins to shape its own destiny.

cut to the beginning of the 21st century here on Earth. we are standing on the doorstep of a dramatically different era of human history. our technology, the mechanism that surpasses evolution's abilities, is about to open up unprecedented access to the raw materials and energies contained within our universe. this access provides us with the most powerful tool possible to outpace chaos, and sustain an environment in which we can literally live forever.

thus, wielding our sword of intelligence, and sharpening its edge with technology, we are the Soldiers of Order. it is our duty to battle chaos, in order to make certain that our universe doesn't become a failed experiment, but a flourishing habitat for any and all kinds of life.

and before anyone says it: yes, someone's been reading Kurzweil, but these thoughts of mine stirred well before that. he did me the great service of laying a technical framework, as well as helping on some philosophical issues.

thoughts?

I subscribe to the same thought of heat-death for the universe.

Entropy ultimately cannot be beaten. We are not Soldiers of Order, we are merely Passing of the Guard.

so "Life" is ultimately meaningless?

so "Life" is ultimately meaningless?

To someone who has some form of religion, no. To an atheist, absolutely.

how can anyone be an "atheist" when so many questions remain unanswered?

do you not agree that the universe seems to be working out some kind of all-encompassing calculation? how could heat-death solve any problem?

are you suggesting that that is the ultimate solution to this universe?

how can anyone be an "atheist" when so many questions remain unanswered?

I honestly do not know. It seems to me that would be the bleakest outlook of all and completely pointless. You'll have to ask one - there are several here.

do you not agree that the universe seems to be working out some kind of all-encompassing calculation? how could heat-death solve any problem? That most likley IS the case. Why must it "solve" anything in the way you seem to mean? Cannot it be just something like a very complex clock that will eventually run down? In that event, it's "solution" would be to have finally acheived a state of rest.

are you suggesting that that is the ultimate solution to this universe?

No, I would never be so bold as to pretend I know the answer!! That is a position reserved for fools.

the only way a clock can run down is if it is run by a fool, and i don't think that is the case for our universe. it is a system that will either be acted upon by a counter-chaotic force, or not.

it seems to me that we (humankind) are counter-chaotic, simply because the order of complexity is increasing in our global civilization.

our planet will first start to lose its entropy and from there our computational ability will spread throughout the galaxy and then the universe.

the only way a clock can run down is if it is run by a fool, and i don't think that is the case for our universe. it is a system that will either be acted upon by a counter-chaotic force, or not.

it seems to me that we (humankind) are counter-chaotic, simply because the order of complexity is increasing in our global civilization.

our planet will first start to lose its entropy and from there our computational ability will spread throughout the galaxy and then the universe.

One cannot "loose" entropy, it is the most natural of all processes. And since we have only a finite amount of energy available and cannot reverse entropy except on a very local basis and for a limited amount of time, how to you suppose we will eventually become what overcomes it? We are intelligent, yes, and gaining additional knowledge continually, but that in no way make us omnipotent.

i suppose we can reclaim lost energy and matter from entropy with the proper level of technology, some of which we now possess. and in the future this process will be nearly perfect.

i never claimed we would be omnipotent, and we couldn't reach this level of knowledge, unless the universe were no longer computable.

so "Life" is ultimately meaningless?

How does entropy not being 'beatable' render life meaningless?

To someone who has some form of religion, no. To an atheist, absolutely.

I think this interpretation comes from mutual non-understanding between many believers and atheists concerning what 'meaning' actually is.

how can anyone be an "atheist" when so many questions remain unanswered?

It's a common behavior of believers to substitute lack of knowledge / understanding with attractive fantasy. Atheists tend to avoid substituting unknowns with something else.

"I think this interpretation comes from mutual non-understanding between many believers and atheists concerning what 'meaning' actually is." -CrunchyCat

Well... what's meaning, then? There's a couple ways I can see it: we can talk about meaning in relation to sentences, look into the semantic meaning (the meaning of the words) and the pragmatic meaning (the intention behind the utterance.)

Meaning in relation to works of visual art and music are similar--we can focus on individual elements and try to determine their meaning in isolation (the 'semantic' meaning) or in their relation to the whole (the 'pragmatic' meaning.)

The meaning of a natural phenomena can be similarly analyzed: the 'semantic' meaning would be the phenomena taken in isolation. Any natural phenomena observed without reference to the context or circumstances is devoid of meaning; it is by reference to these experiential frames that we construct meaning out of external, natural reality. But by examining these interrelations, some apparent, some hidden, we have already engaged the 'pragmatic' meaning of the phenomena, which is nothing more than its connection with other events.

I think the 'meaning' of the universe is similar-- the individual elements, taken singly, have no intrinsic meaning (this is the foundation of atheism) but taken altogether, the whole of existence is so fundamentally interrelated that human minds cannot help but make the leap to assigning a meaning to something so extremely complex and yet unexplainable. It defies reason that an explanation should be impossible, so in spite of lacking a clear and precise explanation of the meaning, the 'believers,' in contrast to atheism, assign the universe as a whole a definite meaning, even though they too say it cannot be absolutely defined and, even more damaging, may be subjective.

Well... what's meaning, then?

The relationship of 2+ variables

"Nothing can totally escape the flow of entropy, save one... life. "

Not even life totally escapes the flow of entropy if we buy the second law of thermodynamics. Life is just a temporary reversal of the order-to-chaos relation, kind of a whirlpool spinning opposite the current of time which always increases chaos. We can only increase local order at the cost of a greater universal increase of disorder--it all must balance out in the end, say the "rules".

As scientifically rigorous as the formulation of the laws of thermodynamics are, I think they lead to a rather pessimistic philosophy. Strictly *nothing* can overcome them completely or conclusively until we find chinks in the armor of entropy.

it is the typical folly of western man steeped in his religion of materialism, that he believes his purpose is to 'save te universe'----it is a modern equivalent of te Mayans who believed that by blood sacrifice they too could maintain te universe!

actually Nature, which includes universe as continuum is Intelligent. it doesn't NEED 'help' because it IS INtelligenc~ing, or cosmosing..........this doesn't rule out a death of the universe, but where ther is death there HAS to be life....ypu cannot have one witout the other

This universe, Nature, your life, animal, insect, rock....all life and death is FULL of Meaning, hich also embraces mindsets who believe universe is meaning-less. Fullness overflowing with Meaning. such is ecstasy

People are so incredibly egotisticle. We are a few generations away from living in trees and peeling bananas with our feet. A bit later, we decided the world was flat and the center of the universe. We are the universe, not separate from it. Entropy is working on us. We have such a microscopic, parochial view of the universe, that to think we have any insight or are even capable of an insight into the 'meaning' (whatever that is) of the universe, is the height of ego. Many people even believe that there is a human-like god-creature that created the universe and that he (I guess he has male genitalia) doesn't shave and has a long beard and sits and somewhere and feels emotions.
The universe has evolved to the point where it has become aware of itself (us). These points of awareness have evolved a universal view to help them deal with the disturbing fact that they are transitiory and will cease to exist in the not too distant future.
In other words, you are a flash in the pan, get over it. It's not very comforting but look around you. Life inevitably ends in tragedy. You become slower, weaker and more stupid as you age. You eventually lose everything you have and everyone you love.
Bleak?...yes, but anything else you believe is just fantasy.

The universe has evolved to the point where it has become aware of itself (us). These points of awareness have evolved a universal view to help them deal with the disturbing fact that they are transitiory and will cease to exist in the not too distant future.

That's a very interesting way to express things. THe universe (reality) has points of self awareness.

Every 'self' another 'point of 'self'-awareness'?

so basically, the universe sees you as a point of ever-decreasing order; no matter what your effect on your society.

get real. unless you commit suicide, then you contribute to the whole of human society, which will ultimately expand to the far reaches of the cosmos.

read some kurzweil...

People are so incredibly egotisticle. We are a few generations away from living in trees and peeling bananas with our feet. A bit later, we decided the world was flat and the center of the universe. We are the universe, not separate from it. Entropy is working on us. We have such a microscopic, parochial view of the universe, that to think we have any insight or are even capable of an insight into the 'meaning' (whatever that is) of the universe, is the height of ego. Many people even believe that there is a human-like god-creature that created the universe and that he (I guess he has male genitalia) doesn't shave and has a long beard and sits and somewhere and feels emotions.
The universe has evolved to the point where it has become aware of itself (us). These points of awareness have evolved a universal view to help them deal with the disturbing fact that they are transitiory and will cease to exist in the not too distant future.
In other words, you are a flash in the pan, get over it. It's not very comforting but look around you. Life inevitably ends in tragedy. You become slower, weaker and more stupid as you age. You eventually lose everything you have and everyone you love.
Bleak?...yes, but anything else you believe is just fantasy.



you sound like a taoist,


peace.

so basically, the universe sees you as a point of ever-decreasing order; no matter what your effect on your society.

get real. unless you commit suicide, then you contribute to the whole of human society, which will ultimately expand to the far reaches of the cosmos.

read some kurzweil...
The universe doesn't see you or care about you or your effect on our little ant-hill here. There may be points of evolution in the universe with a level of awareness that would make us look like bacteria in comparison. Our expansion into the far reaches of the cosmos may be viewed by some as a large plume of alge.
The more we learn, the more we realize that we don't have clue.

The universe doesn't see you or care about you or your effect on our little ant-hill here. There may be points of evolution in the universe with a level of awareness that would make us look like bacteria in comparison. Our expansion into the far reaches of the cosmos may be viewed by some as a large plume of alge.
The more we learn, the more we realize that we don't have clue.

Impressive points. So, how many PH.D's do you have there fess?

And modern man is suppose to be a paradigm for this "order" of yours? [roll-eyes]

Anyway, if the universe is in entropy, then that would signify that order is governed by an undercurrent, and a magnetic attraction to, chaos? So if chaos is pulling at order, how then could order have sprung from chaos? Or would this be some sort of cosmic dance, an eternal tango? So if it is a "natural" rhythm, then, why, it is that rhythm that brought "order" to "chaos". Hence -- the properties of "order" reside not in order itself but in the... rhythm of things.

The ultimate alien intellect would seek to tap into that rhythm, no?

Just a thought.
BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO

esoterik appeal: [...]thus, wielding our sword of intelligence, and sharpening its edge with technology, we are the Soldiers of Order. it is our duty to battle chaos..
Are you Darth Vader?
These are words of darkness! You are the enemy of Truth.
Truth is that Chaos is real and (for all intents and purposes) forever! Chaos is the entire quantum wave field which is equivalent with Mind.
The 'order' that you so desperately attempt to uphold is merely illusion resultant from the acquiring of sufficient program code from the 'collapsed' waves to construct your 'order' as 'concepts' within your mind. Ego alone needs to desperately uphold this grand illusion, this 'rickety' mental 'construct'...

Yours is the voice of the 'Greyface', of the 'Devil', Darth Vader, a necessary 'evil' in this tapestry of life so that we may learn and eschew the 'false' and find/become the 'true'...

the instinct to propagate our species, and ourselves, is at the very heart of what it means to be "alive". the evolution of our intelligence, and subsequently our technology makes us uniquely equipped to carry out this mission. i don't think anyone can argue with that.

now, it seems to me that a good definition of what life is, is a pattern of matter and energy that can, in the face of entropy, replicate and improve itself. evolution is the result. entities that are alive become increasingly better at resisting entropy. eventually those entities become able to manipulate matter and energy in such a way that a) the knowledge of this manipulation is recorded and shared with the next generation of said entities and b) this proccess of technological evolution quickly accelerates wildly beyond the pace of biological evolution.

we are nearing the point at which our evolution nearly perfectly resists entropy. this may not seem true, but think about where our species was just 1000 years ago, and then try and imagine where it will be 1000 years from now. we are living in an era at the knee of an exponential evolutionary curve. in short order we will be so good at interacting with and manipulating matter and energy that our civilization will begin to expand outward near, at, or beyond the speed of light, and restucturing everything we encounter with the maximum amount of order that we deem necessary. some of you may think this sounds evil, but it is quite the opposite.

here is my point- why did the universe evolve beings that thrive on order, if its ultimate state is one of disorder? because we, and any other civilizations (if there are any) that have evolved in the universe, are caretakers. this particular universe is meant for life. indeed, it may be true that the only reason this universe exsists at all is because eventually there would be someone around to observe it. just look at quantum mechanics.

entropy may not be able to be reversed (if that were true then eventually we would be able to recondense things into the original singularity that spawned the big bang, which i'm guessing wouldn't be a beneficial thing for us), but given the proper level of technology it can be greatly slowed, or even halted.

we are not a "flashpoint of self-awareness" doomed to burn out in the gradual grinding-down of the universe. Darth Vader was motivated by the lust for power; my vision of humanity is driven by a sense of responsibility.

this universe exists FOR LIFE. without life it would have no purpose. if the universe is a computer, then we are the software. but we have the power to maintain the computer from the inside, out. we can make sure that it will run forever.

Universe Is life AND death AND regeneration

very true. but i'm talking about Life with a big "L". actual living, conscious entities, which resist entropy. death is only necessary for Life while it experiences biological evolution. once technological evolution takes control of itself, death is no longer necessary because technological evolution is a vastly more intelligent proccess than the evolution of biology, which does build on itself in an exponential fashion, but still does so by trial and error. bad designs have to die to allow the better ones to flourish. but with technology, you can see the proccess, and the elements, and go in and fix bad designs. and when machines (the physical manifestation of technology) can do this on their own, the proccess will accelerate extremely quickly. since we control this technology, we will wield increasingly powerful tools to combat entropy's effect on us as a civilization.

some people see this and become scared because they think machines are going to take over the world... our world. but as machines become smarter, we will begin to see them less as cold metal boxes that will take control from humanity, and more like unbelieveably gifted children that will patiently help us feeble apes at every corner. they will be so gifted in fact, that we will incorporate elements of their design into ourselves. trust me, once it can happen, it will happen.

oh mey deeear. your vision! awful. it is so false dont know where to begin. your vision is built of the premise that Nature isn't sentient. ie., is ithoutfeeling, consciouness, volition. and trhat tere fore it is inferior to technology made by man who IS conscious

so you already begin wit a flase notion. ad from there can only continue to fuck up all the way. dragging others down who see right through your phony philosophy, including othe species, and the further degradation of Nature, as 'man-takes-control'.....all i am prayin is that you wake up from your trip! and SOON

Impressive points. So, how many PH.D's do you have there fess?

100

^^i never said that nature wasn't sentient. if you'll look at my previous post, you will see that i even said it was intelligent. if you'd come off the pseudo-eastern high horse for a minute, you would see that Life IS the goal of the universe. you seem to think that i'm saying that humans are the most perfect beings in the universe, and it is solely our job to save it from the ebb of entropy. again, i made it clear in my posts above that LIFE is the force against entropy that i speak of; humans are merely the most advanced example that i or you are currently aware of. more advanced civilizations may exist, or will eventually, possibly through our help.

what exactly would you have humanity do? sit around smoking weed and meditating all day? meanwhile we are vulnerable to extinction because of an asteroid, a virus, or a volcano. what do you think is the REAL goal of all our technological advancement? you're missing the forrest on account of the trees.

what exactly would you have humanity do? sit around smoking weed and meditating all day?
Realizing that in western society, the concept of introspection and 'just' Being is anathema next to the compulsive production of more and more 'widgets' and constant motion (preferably fruitful!). Sitting and smoking and meditating seems the best choice in many instances, as opposed to; making war, making war implements, being a corrupt politician and fucking over the poor and middle-class while consolidating power among a select few, marketing overpriced things of no value to those who don't need em and can't afford em anyway, .... I can go on, but you get my point, I'm sure. I'd rather see my idiot neighbor sitting in a lotus posture and meditating instead of racing his SUV around town for no reason other than to show it off... Or ripping up the earth with his 'quad'.. Yeah, in context, I think that a joint and some quiet introspection has greater value than most of our furious activity!
Now, where's that lighter???
*__-

meanwhile we are vulnerable to extinction because of an asteroid, a virus, or a volcano.
So do you want it 'written' that you died while engaged in mindless, fruitless rote production of more widgets while raping the earth unawares, in your sleep, unconscious, loved ones on the back burner... No one was ever on their deathbed complaining that they spent too much time with one's loved ones... Priorities all askew.. and suddenly realizing all this as it is too late... A waste of a life! The mad accumulation of ever MORE!!!

what do you think is the REAL goal of all our technological advancement?
To keep the poor and middle-class adequately but barely alive to produce neat toys that only the rich can afford and enjoy and accumulate. Sweaty Chinese children are the fools producing the plastic WalMart crap that the common man is trained to appreciate and accumulate... just like the real people! You can be sure that a line worker at the Jaguar factory doesn't drive one! Ain't it amazing how those rich drunks go to the top of the transplant list while the girl next door dies after being on the list for five years. And it goes on and on... Give 'em TV and beer and some cockroach sex and they will shuffle hapily through life oblivious that they are being used as tools and fools...

"Man’s dominance is pathological. His control is compulsive and ill . . . Power is an unfortunate palliative for the insecure."

Out of breath,
Good evening.

^thank you tyler durden.

you know, being so introspective really keeps you from seeing the big picture. yes, capitalism creates some very striking class differences. some people are very poor. but the innovation that it drives will most certainly benefit the poor much more than the rich. these "widgets" that you speak of are the snowflakes falling from a growing blizzard that will soon engulf the entire planet.

and as far as your silly assertion that technology takes us away from our loved ones...i mean jesus, thats like a strawman with a red herring stuffed in his shirt. spending time away from your family is a PERSONAL decision, not a cultural one, and certainly has nothing to do with technology. nice touch with the red letters, but it's not steve jobs' fault you hate your family...

edit: btw, that snazzy little italicized orwellian quote you threw up there will hold very little water when people can cheaply synthesize everything they require to live happily. this will be the case in about 20-30 years.

^thank you tyler durden.
Hahaha... ouch!

you know, being so introspective really keeps you from seeing the big picture. yes, capitalism creates some very striking class differences. some people are very poor. but the innovation that it drives will most certainly benefit the poor much more than the rich. these "widgets" that you speak of are the snowflakes falling from a growing blizzard that will soon engulf the entire planet
I've been watching the 'shitstorm of widgets' all my life. The poor are still as poor, except that which they can afford now is ordinarily of inferior quality. Cheap is cheap. The rich widget collectors are in pork heaven though!

spending time away from your family is a PERSONAL decision, not a cultural one, and certainly has nothing to do with technology.
Culture says that you are what you own. Culture says that you must go forth and produce. Culture says things are more important than people. You spend more time in jail for carjacking than you do for murder!

edit: btw, that snazzy little italicized orwellian quote you threw up there will hold very little water when people can cheaply synthesize everything they require to live happily. this will be the case in about 20-30 years.
Yeah, all the talk was of those neat labor saving devices back in the 50s, so people could spend more time with their loved ones and relaxing. First, they just acquired one labor saving device.. then they needed another and had to work harder for more.. and on.. and on... and on... Now Amerikans work more for less than most of the industrial world, and have less vacation time than about any other country. Yeah, I think culture has something to do with it..

everything they require to live happily
There it is, folks, the materialist mantra!
Happiness = Things!!
Happiness is supposed to have some relationship to the 'things' that you can acquire!
More of the same tired old materialist hogwash. Never been true, never will.
MORE!! MORE!! MORE!! aught to = Happier!! and Happier!! and Happier!! Why, then, is this not evidenced to be correct?

We'll come back in twenty years and we'll see which way the ax falls, eh?
I can understand your perspective.
I just don't share it.

oh, we back, and with authority:)

^your gross misunderstanding of everything i've posted is... incredible.

the "things" that you speak of might as well be our collective children. this nilhistic crap really doesn't fly simply because it accomplishes nothing. do you really think that the inventions we come up with are just trinkets? the unveiling of physical processes is just a quirk, a lucky circumstance we exploit to make us more money?

where is the drive? the ultimate motivation? what pushes us? not selfishness. that problem is solved by fututre tech. transcending our worldy boundries is next on the list. to become immortal, if one so chooses.

free will only works in ONE direction, and that direction is up.

hAH... for anyone with savvy see how the above shows just how religion is stil being practised by the science-minded. stll the dream of immorality, and eyes raised upwardslike the 'saints'. same old same old hey?