When you say/type "society", what do you mean?

When you hear or read "society" in someone's speech or post, what do you think they mean?

How many different "societies" are there in the world?

Are there actually "societies" that are embedded in other, larger "societies"? If so, what are they called and how do they work with the larger "society"?

I have a very difficult time with that word ...probably more so than almost any other word in the English language. NOT neccesarily with the definition, but the common usage of the term. Anyone got any good ideas?

Baron Max

To me, a society is a community, but without the constraint of geography.

Are there any constraints? Any requirements to be a member?

But remember, when someone says, "society" what do they mean? Ditto for what you mean when you use the term? And how is everyone supposed to know what you mean versus what they mean?

Baron Max

Today I would believe it is what you earn that puts you into different types of societies.

Wouldn't that be called "class" within the "society"?

I just can't get a good grasp on what people mean by "society" ....and to make it worse, the word is used more and more all the time as if we should all know what the hell it is?? If so, why don't I know?

Baron Max

It's a community of people that includes mores and social norms.

There are all different types of societies, some within others, some that overlap.

Maybe the words 'microcosm' and 'macrocosm' might help?

In its most basic form, society is defined from the anthropological POV as any group which co-operates for a common purpose. Speaking generally, 150 individuals are the largest group of people that any one person can get to know on a first-name, full-time basis. In most old-world countries, people would tend to spend their whole lives in one village, They would grow up knowing their parents' and grandparents' generation, and they themselves would eventually join that generation as they grew older. So while the village stayed at a population-level of about 150 during their whole lives, they would through their life-span get to know hundreds, maybe thousands of people during the average three generations (say 75 years) that they lived.

Once you get into larger and more complex societies, the same rule applies--the greatest number of people that any individual is likely to know at any one time is 150, but as you move about throughout your lifetime you get to meet thousands. Some you know on a first name basis, but the vast majority you may only meet once in your life, or at best you'll only interact with them on a superficial level. IMO, it's the sum of all these interactions which makes up society.

Xylene, I generally agree with what you've posted. The 150-person society is one that's always held my attention. But it also doesn't explain how we actually USE the term or even how we UNDERSTAND it.

In its most basic form, society is defined from the anthropological POV as any group which co-operates for a common purpose.

The problem with the definition is that it doesn't explain any of the modern usages of the term "society". I.e., we speak of American "society" or Iraqi "society", etc, but in my experience, most people can't explain what they really mean by it even when they use the terms.

American "society"? Is a "society" in or near New York City the same "society" as one in Los Angeles? Or, for that matter, does New York City "society" even have a common purpose? If so, what the hell is it?

But I would agree with you that a society really can't be much larger than 100-150 members or it begins to break up into distinct groups or "societies" within the "society". In which case, if they remain in contact, how do we then describe those two groups? ...surely not as one "society"?

Baron Max

'Society' is a pretty ambiguous term, like 'community'.

When you say/type "society", what do you mean?

I usually mean the American culture. I'll post up more meanings if I think of them. Another could be common sense.

When you hear or read "society" in someone's speech or post, what do you think they mean?

I think they mean American culture.

How many different "societies" are there in the world?

Quite a few. It would be pretty hard to come up with a number since some societies influence others.

Are there actually "societies" that are embedded in other, larger "societies"? If so, what are they called and how do they work with the larger "society"?

This erodes the boundary between what is considered a 'society' and what is considered a 'community' or any group for that matter. Most people refer to society as American culture and mentality, connoting it to the boundaries of this particular country, and implying that other societies may be just tied with their own countries as well, with the exception of tribes.

I have a very difficult time with that word ...probably more so than almost any other word in the English language. NOT neccesarily with the definition, but the common usage of the term. Anyone got any good ideas?

Just use it pretty freely, but be careful if others would quote you for ambiguity.

'Society' is a pretty ambiguous term, like 'community'.
I usually mean the American culture.

And what is "American culture"? Is it the "culture" in southern California, the "culture" of the American south or the "culture" of New York City? And in any of those "cultures", there are numerous other "cultures" ...like Chinatown in NYC.

I think "culture" is almost as difficult to define as "society" ...perhaps even moreso!

But I agree that "society" and "culture" are ambiguous terms, but those terms are used every day by almost all of us. ...which is why I posted this thread. I'd really like to know what the terms mean if and when I use them. ...and equally important is when I do use them, that others understand the terms in the same way. If not, .......well, isn't that what language is for?

Baron Max

I see society as the use of law to define a community of peoples, Thus enabling a social order to develop. What that order is becomes irrelevant if we are only defining the term "Society", as the order of this society would be its "Culture".

And what is "American culture"? Is it the "culture" in southern California, the "culture" of the American south or the "culture" of New York City? And in any of those "cultures", there are numerous other "cultures" ...like Chinatown in NYC.

I think "culture" is almost as difficult to define as "society" ...perhaps even moreso!

But I agree that "society" and "culture" are ambiguous terms, but those terms are used every day by almost all of us. ...which is why I posted this thread. I'd really like to know what the terms mean if and when I use them. ...and equally important is when I do use them, that others understand the terms in the same way. If not, .......well, isn't that what language is for?

Baron Max

Yes, it's unfortunate that the terms are very ambiguous. I guess you'll just have to interpret each 'society' based upon its context.

Lol, most synonyms in English need not exist, but society is an exception.

With respect to 'American culture' I can see that there still exists a common region in the many Venn diagram circles you are trying to bring up. Things tend to receive influence a lot from the majority. These are some characteristics that help define 'American culture' - just things that I see in all Americans:
~Freedom, respect, and courtesy
~Civilized people and civilized streets (as observed from my visits to other countries)
~The unusually high ratio of people who want to strike it rich to the people who want to be content
~Recognition of the term "Uncle Sam" as opposed to just "Big Brother"
~Monday night football
~Table manners
~The white-collar M-F workweek / moodtable
~Cutthroat individualism with arbitrary staunch patriotism
~Nat'l issue-oriented politics, with the usual Dem/Rep dichotomy

The metropolitan cultures that you bring up have a lot in common, since most of US' population is metropolitan and suburban. Things may vary slightly from region to region, like word usages and transportation culture (NY might have more of a subway/taxi culture and LA definitely a car/freeway culture), but in general, the things above are found in nearly every US city and/or region.

Of course, many of these characteristics vary from region to region, but I think some of these really make Americans stand out from the rest of the world. It would probably characterize some of what I mean by 'American culture', but it certainly doesn't define it exactly.

I drive through States a lot. Impressions: different beautifull and not so beautiful landscapes and .... dull uniformity. The same stores, malls, the same houses, undistinguishable towns, suburbs, the same mass food, the same ..., the same ... Even language is quite similar as for foreign ears. Southern accent is slowly but surely dying out. Yes, there are miniscule differences, not more than that. NYC is certainly different, in the sense that almost everything is for cash only, city of lonely, suspicious, selfish people (I guess, every big city is like that; survival mechanism). NJ drivers around NYC seems to be the most self absorbed drivers in nation.

As facial said, it all comes down to context, or, perhaps more specifically, intention.

If someone is looking for a mysterious dark brooding boogeyman to blame, they will often call it society. They are referring to whatever their boogeyman it... The Capitlist machine, declining family values, oppression of gays/blacks/women/midgets, lack of recognition for whatever it is you associate with and relate to. It is a way of avoiding either personal responsibility, and/or avoiding looking objectively at the facts.

If someone is looking for support for a cause, they will often call who it purportedly helps "society". It becomes a catch-all phrase for "the collective masses". It is used as a generic term to try and capture whatever group/stratum/class etc that YOU (the listener, not the speaker) personally associate yourself with. By using "society" they don't have to say "everyone" because that's not true, nor do they have to be specific because that will alienate some and support for their cause will suffer: "For the good of society", "For the advancement of society".

Basically, people use the term "society" when wanting to either blame or appeal to an unspecific group that they can not or will not name specifically, because it doesn't suit their needs.

I think you have a right to despise the common usage of the word.
It is genrally used in a dishonest, irresponsible way.

That said, I fully admit to using the word in both of the above contexts. though I make a conscious effort to avoid it in an attempt to be more honest and straight-forward and less evasive with my arguments.

Baron Max, looked at from the POV of my own small country, the United States is essentially a country of countries, in the sense that each individual state is effectively a country in its own right. Each state has its own government, constitution and sets of laws which are particular to that state. The individual states also have their own histories, irrespective of the overall history of America at large. Even within each state there are regions which regard themselves are strikingly different from rest of 'their' state.(Northern California, for example. The federal government is the only real politically uniting factor in the USA, as far as I can see. However, the USA does share certain national stories in common, such as the American Revolution, even though that was only actually experienced (so far as I know) on the eastern seaboard and the south.

Xylene, I understand your ideas about the USA, but don't you see that that only points to the foolishness of the using the term "society of the USA" or "American society"? And that's what I'm trying to figure out!

In essence, you've given even more ammunition to the idea that there is no such thing as "society" .....and yet we continue to use the term as tho' others know what we're talking about.

I think "One Raven" is probably more correct on the issue ....it's a good way of saying something to make others think you know what the hell ye're talking about! ...LOL!

Baron Max

One way of looking at it I guess is that the idea of society is a collection of convenient national myths that everyone can share. I guess that's what society really boils down to.

Society as I see it is held together (most of the time) by a collection of convenient myths, as I said. It's the constant repititions of these national myths which keep the society together.

Xylene, I don't actually disagree with your thoughts. But then we have to take those thoughts and apply them in the real world. So ...what IS the "American Society"? and is it the same "society" in California as it is in Boston? New York City? Florida?

See? To SAY the word "society", one surely must mean something!? And as far as I can tell, it means nothing in the real world. ....and yet we keep on using the word as if it actually has meaning, both to the speaker AND to the listener. Duh?

Baron Max