It wasn't Bush. Check this little piece of history out. See what happens when you try to negotiate with terrorists? You know what they say, "If you give a mouse a cookie..."

http://earlyamerica.com/review/2002_winter_spring/terrorism.htm

Seriously, I do wonder if the current war and the Tripolitan War are connected. Buckaroo Bush has gotten too big for his britches, but are the notoriously strained relations between the US and the Mid East a legacy from a past when diplomacy failed? Is the root of this mess planted in the days when an upstart little nation refused to buckle in to extortion and bullying?

There are some eerie similarities here. There was even a puppet government ready to be put in place after the Pasha's defeat. (Didn't go as planned, funny how the Marine's Hymn doesn't mention that...). But what would have happened with a few more Marines ashore? And would things have gone any different afterwards had we just accepted the damned horse?

Is the root of this mess planted in the days when an upstart little nation refused to buckle in to extortion and bullying?

I can safely say no, the Arab world had to contend with real empires, and real invasions from the Europeans about 20 years after that war, and Napoleon defeated the Malmuks in 1798 way before that war. I doubt that many Arabs today even know that this war happened, I am sure most Americans don’t know. That war sounded like a romantic era novel then an actual war. The problems of the current spate of affairs finds itself more with the 1919 Treaty of Versailles, and the oil deals with Saudi Arabia, and Iran in the 30’s and 50’s then a war from the days of Pirates.

Our earliest ancestors, able only to imagine super-natural intervention as the only possible explanation for natural reality -- started this war.

Sadly, the Id-10t error code has become genetically significant.

yes, that would explain the current condition of most drivers on the road. :m:

Sorry, O2 past and future history will never buckle swashes. It may be a pleasant fantasy to think of our metastasizing conflict (the so-called War on Terror) like it's an Erol Flynn, Indiana Jones, or Schwarzenegger adventure movie- But it's not nearly that simple, and will not be fun at all for anyone involved. We are not fighting the Barbary Pirates "war". A closer fantasy analogy might be De Tar Baby (http://www.ongoing-tales.com/SERIALS/oldtime/FAIRYTALES/tarbaby.html)

Sorry, O2 past and future history will never buckle swashes.
Sounds like you need to crack open a few more history books. (Anyway, there's no such thing as future history.) We're not isolated in time. Actions of the past have direct bearings on many present day events.

True, but the Tripolitan War is not one of them.

No, I do agree with your post. The Tripolitan War is well removed.

More relvent bits of history to study in search of "who started this war" would include the history of oil consessions in the middle east (and their impact on politics, especially in Iran and Saudi Arabia), the various wars between Arabs and the Israelis, Arab nationalism, and of course the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.

The "Crusades" originally started this war with the help of Bush and Clinton!

Yob Atta

Don't forget, Indiana Jones pissed off a lot of people in his pursuit of the Holy Grail. :)

The Holy Grail is perhaps........Oil? Cowboy Bush likes oil maybe or just to be a powerful ruler who wants and likes to control smaller nations. Probably both!

Yob Atta

And how does Lawrence of Arabia fit in to all of this?

I don't think it's all about the oil. The mideast isn't the only place that produces it. Texas, Alaska, and Mexico could probably churn out enough until a good alternate is found, which I would happily support if my old beasts were able to burn it. (I don't care much for the newer cars. No style, except maybe Mopar's 300 and Crossfire. The hybrids might be okay, but do they have to make them look like sowbugs?)

And how does Lawrence of Arabia fit in to all of this?

If what I read about what happened during his time in captivity is true, then the question is more about what (or who) fits into Lawrence of Arabia.

The Holy Grail is perhaps........Oil?
if the bush administration wants oil, then why not invade venezuela? or turn kuwait into a "bastion of democracy?"
Texas, Alaska, and Mexico could probably churn out enough until a good alternate is found
don't count on it.

Dubya started the war.

Each Hate Week (http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984_c1.htm), we assign a new primal villain: Osama, Saddam, Zawahiri. Ignoring all chronology and history, White House / Pentagon briefings make sense. Ignorance is Strength.

Ignorance is Strength.
Only for the ignorant.

Ignorance is Strength.

Only for the ignorant.

(Mr. G)

Funny you should mention that.

President Reagan was optimistic about the great promise of economic reform, and he acted to restore the rewards and spirit of enterprise.* He was optimistic that a strong America could advance the peace, and he acted to build the strength that mission required.

He was optimistic that liberty would thrive wherever it was planted, and he acted to defend liberty wherever it was threatened.

And Ronald Reagan believed in the power of truth in the conduct of world affairs.* When he saw evil camped across the horizon he called that evil by its name.

(Pres. George W. Bush, Jr. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122465,00.html))

I'm not sure it's what you had in mind, G, but never let it be said I don't acknowledge you on those occasions that you're right.

Antifreeze So do you know what their production numbers are, both actual and potential? During the first Gulf Unpleasantness Bush the First actually kept gas prices down by ordering access to the crude that was already pumped just in Texas alone, which was an amount reported to be able to meet all of our national needs for at least 5 years. I remember joking about the announcement "Sounds like Georgie had to sit in a few gas lines in the 70's."

(Is anybody here old enough to remember those days? Red flag/green flag days, going by license plate odd/even numbers, that outrageous price of 75 cents a gallon! Oh yeah, when it topped a dollar, everybody was going to get horses, yeah...sure...riiiiight!)

During the first Gulf Unpleasantness Bush the First actually kept gas prices down by ordering access to the crude that was already pumped just in Texas alone, which was an amount reported to be able to meet all of our national needs for at least 5 years.

I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify that please? It sounds like you're saying that during the first gulf war Texas produced 36.5 billion barrels of oil (our national needs for five years) in just a few months, which of course is impossible.

That would be assuming we'd started that period from zero. We still had plenty that was already processed for its various needs. We never had to touch the Texas reserves, fortunately. What he was doing was heading off a problem before it happened. I think they referred to it as war profiteering. We found it odd that a man with so much invested in oil would be interested in keeping the prices down, hence the remark about him having to sit in gas lines.

I never heard the actual number of how much oil we had stored in Texas alone, but as I said, it was reported be enough for the nation for at least 5 years. I guess we buy so much from overseas A) so that we don't have to deplete our own stock, and B) for the sake of the global economy.

But Texas doesn't have the pumping capacity to pull 36.5 billion barrels out of the ground in a few months. In fact it would take them probably on the order of 20-25 years to squirt that much crude. And as far as I know, there was no increase in pumping activity during the period in question.

If you're talking about oil already pumped out of the ground, the only significant (in that ballpark) oil in storage is the national strategic oil reserve, which isn't in Texas (and isn't Texas crude anyway, I don't think). But it's not nearly that much oil. I think it's something like a 60-day supply. At 20 million barrels a day that would be about 1.2 billion barrels.

Are you sure you didn't mix a "billion" and a "million" up there somewhere?

tiassa,

but Reagan funded, and supplied Saddam with weapons?

there is a differences in oil capacity, and how much can be mined at what cost and and what rate. As is world demand for oil and its rate of production is not looking good.

Right, that actually has a name in the oil business, although it escapes me at the moment. It's something along the lines of "the great flip-flop" or something similar. That being the time at which demand finally exceeds theoretical production capacity. It's one of the great events that has been predicted for many years but which has never actually arrived, for various reasons.

China's staggering growth in demand has prompted renewed fears of this event. At the present time the US demand is around 21 million barrels per day, with China second at a bit over 5 million. But China is approaching the point at which its middle class will exceed the total population of the US, and they would *all* own cars, which would mean that China's demand would *exceed* that of the US.

The capacity is not there for that level of demand. Something will have to give.

But Texas doesn't have the pumping capacity to pull 36.5 billion barrels out of the ground in a few months.

Needless to say the US doesn’t even have 36.5 billion barrels in reserve:

According to the Oil and Gas Journal, the United States had 22.7 billion barrels of proved oil reserves as of January 1, 2004, eleventh highest in the world. These reserves are concentrated overwhelmingly (over 80%) in four states -- Texas (24% including the state's reserves in the Gulf of Mexico), Alaska (22%), Louisiana (20% including the state's reserves in the Gulf of Mexico), and California (19%, including the state's Federal Offshore reserves). U.S. proven oil reserves have declined by around 20% since 1990, with the largest single-year decline (1.6 billion barrels) occurring in 1991.

Texas has around 5.4 billion barrels, that’s really not that much. If Texas were to pump out the amount of oil the US uses daily she would be dry within 257 days or so. Here is the reality of the domestic oil patch:

During 2003, the United States produced around 7.9 million barrels per day (MMBD) of oil

Sizable, but not nearly enough to feed the behemoth that is the US. Also if any of you want to read my analysis on the oil situation you can read it here:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=34138

But Texas doesn't have the pumping capacity to pull 36.5 billion barrels out of the ground in a few months.
They wouldn't have had to do it in only a few months. But whether or not it was million, billion, or a gazillion, the fact is that George the First was openly furious at the jack-up in prices, especially at the gas stations, and ordered the open access to the reserves. In fact, I think he was the one who used the phrase "war profiteering".

It begins with a: World ruled by Mafia Dons called kings who pretended to be special.

Under Bosses in England revolt, parliament estabished.
USA revolution and French revolution launch a revival of languistic basesd common cause nationalism which is different from rallying around your favorite Mafia Boss.

Linguistic nationalism and rights for the common man idealism slowly spread around the world and are continuing to spread around the world.

1853: In the Crimean war Britain, France and the Ottoman Empire fight Russia (the first major war in which Christian countries side with a Muslim country)

1882: Britain occupies Egypt



Kuwait tangent:
England and they other great powers develop a habit of placing German princes who are cousins to all the royal families on the thrones of new balkan states carved out of the Ottoman empire.
Muhammad bin Sabah was assassinated by his half-brother, Mubarak al-Sabah (the Great) who, in early 1897, was recognized, by the Ottoman sultan, as the qaimmaqam (provincial sub-governor) of Kuwait.
It is commonly believed that Mubarak's coup was assisted by the British government.
Mubarak the Great
In July 1897, Mubarak invited the British to deploy gunboats along the Kuwaiti coast. This led to what is known as the First Kuwaiti Crisis, in which the Ottomans demanded that the British stop interfering with their empire. In the end, the Ottoman Empire backed down, rather than go to war.
In January 1899, Mubarak signed an agreement with the British which pledged that Kuwait would never cede any territory nor receive agents or representatives of any foreign power without the British Government's consent. In essence, this policy gave Britain control of Kuwait's foreign policy. The treaty also gave Britain responsibility for Kuwait's national security. In return, Britain agreed to grant an annual subsidy of 15,000 Indian rupees ( 1,500) to the royal family.
The Anglo-Ottoman Convention
Despite the Kuwaiti government's desire to either be independent or under British rule, in the Anglo-Ottoman Convention of 1913, the British concurred with the Ottoman Empire in defining Kuwait as an "autonomous caza" of the Ottoman Empire and that the Shaikhs of Kuwait were not indepenent leaders, but rather qaimmaqams (provincial sub-governors) of the Ottoman government.




1902: Abdul al-Aziz, at the head of a bedouin army, conquers Riyad and begins to unite south of Arabia (both through military action and marriage with 20 women) under the puritanical Wahabi Islamic order

1916: Husayn (Hussein), sharif of Mecca (north Arabia) and founder of the modern Hashimite dynasty, leads a revolt against the Ottoman Empire (Lawrence of Arabia plays a role), while Britain and France secretely agree to divide the Arab lands of the Ottoman empire

1914: there are 85,000 Jews in Palestine

1915: "Young Turks" massacres 1.2 millions of Armenians

The British find themself at war with themself as part of the British empire backs the House of Saud and the other part of the Empire backs Husayn the Heshimite Sharif of Mecca. Saud wins, Husayn's Sons are given by the British the right to be kings over Iraq and Jordan as consolation prizes even though they have never been part of these lands.

1941: the Ba' ath Party is founded in Damascus by Michel Aflaq and Salah al-Din Bitar with the mission to unify the whole Arab world in one Arab country. Hitler is acting on similar thoughts about uniting the Germans under one glorious rule.

1947: the United Nations orders a partition of Palestine in a Jewish state (Israel), an Arab state and an international zone around Jerusalem. The partition plan is blatantly unfair to the Palestinians but the USA, the Soviet, and the UK back the plan. The actions of the three powers is probably caused by the feeling that they need a base from which they can close down the Suez canal and oil fields should Germany re-emerge as a hostile power (as they did after WW1) and ally with Arab Nationalism.

1948 Egypt, Syria, Iraq and the palestinians attack Israel but badly underestimate Israel and are defeated. Jordan claims it is attacking Israel, but seizes the West Bank instead. Israel and Jordan apparently had an agreement to not engage each other in combat, but their was a little engagement because the low level soldiers had not been notified of the plan. The Paletinians should have prepared for the war more, and fought harder but they believed the neighboring states would rescue them.

1951: Mohammad Mossadegh becomes prime minister of Iran and nationalizes the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company

1953: the USA's secret services engineer a coup to remove Iran's prime minister Mohammad Mossadegh and reinstall the Shah. This "success at overthrowing a democracy, coupled with Guatemala leads to the newly formed CIA developing a pattern of over estimating what they can accomplish with covert action.

1956: Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt nationalizes the Suez canal, thereby becoming the father of Arab nationalism and moving the Arab world into the Soviet sphere.

1956: Israel declares war on Egypt and invades the Sinai and the Gaza strip, while France and Britain seize the Suez canal.

1962: Christians in the south of Sudan start their uprising.

1962 Algeria is declared independent from France after the deaths of about One MILLION Algerians.



Iraq tangent:
1963 USA backs Baath coup in iraq. US Aledgedly provides lists of thousands of leftests to be killed. Ba'ath Party under Ali Salih al-Saadi and Colonel Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr, but with Brigadier Abd al-Salaam Arif as governmental figurehead. In large part, this coup came about as a result of Qasim's lack of success in the struggles to regain power in Kurdish regions in the north.
The small size of the Ba'ath Party in 1963, combined with its factionalism, its ambiguity between Iraqi nationalism and Arab nationalism, and its inability to crush the Kurdish rebellion led Arif to push the party aside in November 1963 and to focus power in the armed forces under his leadership and that of Abd al-Rahman Mohammad Arif (his brother) and Colonel Said Slaibi. Arif led the Iraqi government unambiguously into the pan-Arab camp, and unity with Egypt and Syria was actively considered. When Abd al-Salaam Arif was killed in a helicopter crash in 1966, his brother assumed leadership. His lack of effective charisma and the renewal of conflicts with the Kurds moved more and more power into various army factions and away from any centralized government.
On 17 July 1968, a military coup against Arif placed Colonel Abd al-Razzaq al-Nayif and Ibrahim al-Daud in power, but they were quickly out-maneuvered by a now-more-politically-nimble Ba'ath Party which, under the leadership of Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr coopted these military leaders and their coup within a few weeks. The weakening of pan-Arabism of the old Nasserite model after the disastrous 1967 war with Israel had allowed the Iraqi Ba'ath to find its own path, its own Iraqi agenda, with few links to the parental Syrian Ba'ath. Behind al-Bakr, and increasingly moving to supplant him, was Saddam Hussein, who by 1969 had become the most important Ba'ath Party official. On 16 July 1979, faced with personal illness and a set of family tragedies, al-Bakr stepped down and Saddam Hussein moved into the public exercise of the power which he had held from behind the scenes for at least a decade.

1967: Israel attacks it's neighbors an aquires the "occupied territories".



1968: the British withdraw from the United Arab Emirates.

1973: Egypt and Syria attack Israel.