I don't believe in any god, and religion really turns me off. I just don't like it at all. I have no reason to believe, I don't feel I'm missing out on anything etc... You could argue that I should be interested, that I should investigate it. No doubt stamp collectors have similar ideas

So, I'll continue to live my life has I already have done, until the day I die. I shall die having never believed in a god.

Fair enough, there are plenty like me.

Now, as far as I can gather by reading other threads on this forum, Christians believe that I shall go to hell. Of course, I don't believe it so I am not scared (when I die I expect to be nothing more than wormfood). However, Christians do believe it.

So this is a question to them:

How do you feel that your God will send me (an average Joe who's never killed / raped / stolen etc...) to hell for a spot of eternal suffering and damnation?

After all, 70 years (or however long I live for) of ignorance (as I guess you would see it), is hardly a crime worthy of eternal suffering is it?

Or is it?

Don't worry, your body becomes wormfood, your sole becomes a ghost, and you spend eternity anywhere you damn well choose! And with all those bible toting Christians in heaven who the hell would want to go there!

Originally posted by croper
How do you feel that your God will send me (an average Joe who's never killed / raped / stolen etc...) to hell for a spot of eternal suffering and damnation?


We don't give a shit were you go....The Quran mentions that on that day pregnant ladies will drop their load unformed and will forget about their own children, each one for their own salvation my friend. ...Your deeds will determine your ending...so be rightous for your own good sake.

The Calamity
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[101.1] The terrible calamity!
[101.2] What is the terrible calamity!
[101.3] And what will make you comprehend what the terrible calamity is?
[101.4] The day on which men shall be as scattered moths,
[101.5] And the mountains shall be as loosened wool.
[101.6] Then as for him whose measure of good deeds is heavy,
[101.7] He shall live a pleasant life.
[101.8] And as for him whose measure of good deeds is light,
[101.9] His abode shall be the abyss.
[101.10] And what will make you know what it is?
[101.11] A burning fire.

[75.10] Man shall say on that day: Whither to fly to?
[75.11] By no means! there shall be no place of refuge!
[75.12] With your Lord alone shall on that.day be the place of rest.
[75.13] Man shall on that day be informed of what he sent before and (what he) put off.
[75.14] Nay! man is evidence against himself,
[75.15] Though he puts forth his excuses.
[75.16] Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,
[75.17] : Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.
[75.18] Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.
[75.19] Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.
[75.20] Nay! But you love the present life,
[75.21] And neglect the hereafter.
[75.22] (Some) faces on that day shall be bright,
[75.23] Looking to their Lord.
[75.24] And (other) faces on that day shall be gloomy,
[75.25] Knowing that there will be made to befall them some great calamity.
[75.26] Nay! When it comes up to the throat,
[75.27] And it is said: Who will be a magician?
[75.28] And he is sure that it is the (hour of) parting
[75.29] And affliction is combined with affliction;
[75.30] To your Lord on that day shall be the driving.
[75.31] So he did not accept the truth, nor did he pray,
[75.32] But called the truth a lie and turned back,
[75.33] Then he went to his followers, walking away in haughtiness.
[75.34] Nearer to you (is destruction) and nearer,
[75.35] Again (consider how) nearer to you and nearer.
[75.36] Does man think that he is to be left to wander without an aim?
[75.37] Was he not a small seed in the seminal elements,
[75.38] Then he was a clot of blood, so He created (him) then made (him) perfect.
[75.39] Then He made of him two kinds, the male and the female.
[75.40] Is not He able to give life to the dead?

Originally posted by Flores
We don't give a shit were you go

Feel the love people.:D

Would you prefer if I say, don't worry croper, I'll try to forget my two kids, husband, and parents, and will carry you on my very back on judgement day and will plead for your salvation.

Originally posted by Flores
Would you prefer if I say, don't worry croper, I'll try to forget my two kids, husband, and parents, and will carry you on my very back on judgement day and will plead for your salvation.

No of course not. Mainly because that's not what I (thought I) asked....

I was just taken aback a bit by your rather hateful preachy response.


So I take it that you think that if a man were to spend his life a non-believer (in my case, as nobody has ever given me a single reason to believer), he deserves eternal suffering?

You didn't read a single word of the Quranic verses I put forth.

It specifically talk about a scale to your life and good deeds and bad deeds. If your scale tips to the bad actions buddy, you can kiss your ass goodbye. It has nothing to do with believe, it is all about your deeds.

Do you feel that you are an overall good person without much burden on your conscious, or are you sick worried about all those hamsters that you squeezed to death when you were a toddler.

I think true ignorance would save you sole. You are not truly ignorant though, are you? You are in this thread after all.
It is more about a choice of right wrong, and making the right choices. Which, even if you don't believe in heaven and soles, afterlife etc., you should still believe in making the right choice. It helps you to spend the rest of your life without regrets.

I care were you go.
Numbers get you every time.

Originally posted by Flores
You didn't read a single word of the Quranic verses I put forth.

It specifically talk about a scale to your life and good deeds and bad deeds. If your scale tips to the bad actions buddy, you can kiss your ass goodbye. It has nothing to do with believe, it is all about your deeds.

Do you feel that you are an overall good person without much burden on your conscious, or are you sick worried about all those hamsters that you squeezed to death when you were a toddler.

I understood the first quote to mean just that, but the second one lost me a bit a I must admit (call me stupid!). It is quite heavy going, and its meaning wasn't clear to me.

So what you're telling me is, in fact, you don't believe I'll burn in hell simply because I'm a non-believer, but that I will be judged on the life I have lead?

And no, I have never squeezed a hamster to death!:D

Originally posted by croper
I understood the first quote to mean just that, but the second one lost me a bit a I must admit (call me stupid!). It is quite heavy going, and its meaning wasn't clear to me.


The second area talks about man's brain. What man brought forth and what we put behind. This means our consious and subconsious will judge each other. Did our actions meet our own perception of good and bad? Is our conscious clear, or did we justify it too many time and put back the justification in a hidden place. The scale will determine if we are deemed fit to continue to eternal bliss or eternal torture.


Originally posted by croper
So what you're telling me is, in fact, you don't believe I'll burn in hell simply because I'm a non-believer, but that I will be judged on the life I have lead?

Noone can measure believe, believe is what motivates us to lead good lives. Some people who don't even know that they are believers are avid believer, while others that say that they really believe, don't really believe and it doesn't transpire in their lives.

Originally posted by Jeremy

I think true ignorance would save you sole. You are not truly ignorant though, are you? You are in this thread after all.
It is more about a choice of right wrong, and making the right choices. Which, even if you don't believe in heaven and soles, afterlife etc., you should still believe in making the right choice. It helps you to spend the rest of your life without regrets.

I care were you go.
Numbers get you every time.


This sounds reasonable to me. Of course, as a decent human being I try to do whats best.

Although as a mere human, there is no way I can avoid commiting 'sin' at various points throughout my life. By the time I die, I will have aquired quite a back catalogue of 'sin' I'm sure. This, coupled with being a non believer, I thought = eternal suffering.

Another possibility if you do not commit any mortal sins is that God will throw you into purgatory for like 1000 years or so.

Is not 1000 years divided by eternity zero? (o.k. math wizzes get out your calculators..)

Not many believers really think about what eternity means. Even it's a short 1 million years, you will quickly run out of ideas why you should stay alive.

Remember this croper:

If heaven existed (which I'm skeptical it does), I would imagine it would be meant for truly good people, no matter what religion or creed they believe in.

However, I would have to agree with most of Jeremy's thoughts (urrr...sarcastic comments) in this thread. :)

See you in hell! :D

what will happen if you have lost control of your mind

Cropper,

This is no problem. Make sure you take out an insurance policy with a good cryogenics institute, like ALCOR for example, such that when your body dies, providing they can get to you within 30 minutes or so, they can cryogenically preserve your brain with all its neural networks intact.

You’ll then need to wait a few years, hopefully not too many, until computing technology has developed to a suitable state where your neural networks can be scanned, digitized and then uploaded into a computer based substrate.

The computing power equivalent to a human brain should be available in a few years, but the software algorithms to animate your neural networks are likely to take a while longer, say another 15 to 50 years.

Once your brain patterns have been uploaded you will have become a Robo-Sapien with the same intellectual and emotional capabilities as a regular human. The advantages of course are numerous. The most important though is that regular backups effectively guarantee immortality so you can forget all that heaven and hell nonsense.

You can still believe or disbelieve in a god of course, although the topic would be somewhat meaningless.

DON'T BELIEVE.. SOME PEOPLE PROMISE HEAVEN.. SOME PEOPLE PROMISE IMMORTALITY.. PRAY GOD TO SAVE YOU FROM THEM WHEN YOU ARE ALIVE...:D

PRAY GOD TO SAVE YOU FROM THEM WHEN YOU ARE ALIVE...And at least another empty promise.

Originally posted by Cris
Cropper,

This is no problem. Make sure you take out an insurance policy with a good cryogenics institute, like ALCOR for example, such that when your body dies, providing they can get to you within 30 minutes or so, they can cryogenically preserve your brain with all its neural networks intact.


I didn't know that our medical field is referring to the Matrix for state of the art medical opinions and ideas.....Wow..:confused:

An interesting take on the subject can be found in Piers Anthony's novel, On a Pale Horse.

Either you pass into nothingness, or you are reborn into a state that fits your karma.

Take your pick.

Cropper,

Do you know why the "Bible toting Christians" never lay off and never stop talking about God even after they get laughed at, yelled at, pushed around, and called all sorts of bad names? It's because they know they are speaking truth. Now, I'm not going to say you are going to Hell. That would be WAY to judgmental of a thing for anyone to say. But I will say that Hell is a very real place and God tells us in the Bible that even people who think they have lived "good" lives will end up there if they don't except His sacrifice. I'm sorry that no one has given you a reason to believe in God, but in His eyes you have all the proof you'll ever need. Good has shown us he exists through creation itself and through the Bible. That should be all the proof you need.
Now I am nothing but a sinful, broken girl who doesn't even deserve to be saved. I have seen that even through the "little stuff" I have hurt God enough to deserve eternal damnation. I know that I have broken God's heart in two, but all it took was me seeing my mistakes and asking forgiveness and suddenly my slate is wiped clean in the eyes of God. Not only that but there is this presence in my life that I could never live without now. It is obvious to me that you are not that self righteous. You correctly said that a life of unbelief and "little" mistakes is enough. You do see in your heart that you are wrong. So do something about it. I challenge you to search your heart, see through all the crap these other people have been feeding you (please don't take offence at that anyone, but that's how I see it) and look for truth. The Bible tells us that if we begin to look for God he will run to us with open arms. God is a God of relationships. He wants nothing more than our Love and attention. He is not a vengeful God who would send a truly sinless person to Hell, but we all know deep down that we've screwed up. Even if society excepts what we have done and even if it's not against the law it doesn't always make it right in the eyes of God. I think this is what you were looking for when you began this thread, so here it is. Bring on the persecution. Thanks for reading I know it's kind of long.

Originally posted by Mystee

I'm sorry that no one has given you a reason to believe in God, but in His eyes you have all the proof you'll ever need. Good has shown us he exists through creation itself and through the Bible. That should be all the proof you need.

But that's not enough proof, it's nothing like enough proof.

It takes a certain type of individual to accept the word of the bible, and what ever attributes it takes, I don't have them. That isn't ever going to change.

If there is a God, then I don't understand why He is prepared for so many of us to have no reason to believe. I genuinely have no reason to believe. I guess I'd like nothing more than to believe that when I die I go on to live forever in paradise (or whatever), but I've absolutely no reason to believe it to be the case.

Looks like I'd better get the tanning lotion in....;)

Originally posted by Ladybug
An interesting take on the subject can be found in Piers Anthony's novel, On a Pale Horse.

That was a good book. I read the entire series. I obtained them from possessions of a poor bastard that died from AIDS.


Oh, by the by, Croper . . . heh that has an uncanny semblence to "groper" . . .

. . . oh, yes, by the by, you're going to burn in the utmost fiery pit of Tartarus. Condemnation and perdition is all you can hope for; it's your penance for being such a irremedially nasty, intractably naughty nonbeliever.

Originally posted by croper

It takes a certain type of individual to accept the word of the bible, and what ever attributes it takes, I don't have them. That isn't ever going to change.

That's an advantageous and healthy sign, comrade. A portent of good things to come, indicative of a well-functioning mind.

You see, here in the world of sanity, which organized religion has chosen to reject, we call those 'attributes" by the names "naivete," "stupidity," and "gullibility".

Originally posted by Flores
each one for their own salvation my friend. ...Your deeds will determine your ending...so be rightous for your own good sake.So the only reason to do good is to save your own ass… err soul?
So much for altruism. I wonder if Allah will note the hypocrisy.

~Raithere

Of course, He will. That means we're all going to burn in Hell. So one might as well live a barbarous, licentious, and all together immoral life and indulge in all life's forbidden pleasures! MUHAHAHAHAHAHA

Youre going to hell,youll be forced to sit at satans table and eat lots and lots of food,and drink lots of alcohol,before an afternoon of whipping bdsm style by some leather clad babes,and youll get raped repeatedly,plus its always hot.

Im going to hell aswell,im looking forward to it,satan's my best friend.

How Uncanny! Fafnir is his neighbor. You two should get together and tell us some funny stories. I'm certain there are a bunch.

Originally posted by doom
Youre going to hell,youll be forced to sit at satans table and eat lots and lots of food,and drink lots of alcohol,before an afternoon of whipping bdsm style by some leather clad babes,and youll get raped repeatedly,plus its always hot.

Im going to hell aswell,im looking forward to it,satan's my best friend.

Satan is the deceiver. He may get you to follow him with thoughts like this, but he really cares nothing for your soul or your happiness. Hell is going to such for anyone who ends up there because they will realize the full love of God and then never see his face again. Yeah, I'll take love thatnks.

Christ's love to you,

Mystee

Originally posted by Mystee
Satan is the deceiver. He may get you to follow him with thoughts like this, but he really cares nothing for your soul or your happiness. Hell is going to such for anyone who ends up there because they will realize the full love of God and then never see his face again. Yeah, I'll take love thatnks.

Christ's love to you,

Mystee

No christ is the deciever,satan is just a figure you choose to blame everything on,satan has been the best friend the church has ever had.

I dont think like that,i dont think theres an afterlife,and i dont have a soul in the first place,no one does.

I like to throw satan at you peeps and fuel the fire so to speak now and again though.

Perhaps i AM satan,if im the ultimate deciever then maybe im decieving you,but you wont believe it and i know you wont believe it anyway cos thats the idea,my.... sorry his biggest trick was making the world believe he dont exist.

Hahahaaa,coarse as i say its all bullshit.

originally posted by croper
If there is a God, then I don't understand why He is prepared for so many of us to have no reason to believe. I genuinely have no reason to believe. I guess I'd like nothing more than to believe that when I die I go on to live forever in paradise (or whatever), but I've absolutely no reason to believe it to be the case.
Why not?<----Reasons to believe---->Why?
Maybe you should ask yourself if your reasons for "not being able to believe" are just as valid as any reason for belief would be...

Look at the responses you get. Atheists would mostly condemn you to hell (jokingly, maybe - but that is where they believe they are going if hell existed, and they would gladly take you with them). Muslims know enough about God, but have no reference from which to know salvation. Christians have two options: tell you what the Bible says, and tell you that God loves you enough that He could save you even in your doubt. What Jesus did and said was not because of exclusivity but for the sake of inclusivity. Not many people have the guts to realize this.

The rest will invariably tell you that whatever you need you can find within yourself - that you are your own salvation. If God promises you salvation, this amounts to rejecting His promise.

Do you know why the "Bible toting Christians" never lay off and never stop talking about God even after they get laughed at, yelled at, pushed around, and called all sorts of bad names? It's because they know they are speaking truth.
there is of course the wee tiny problem being that you don't actually know either way because there are no ultimate truths in this world that back up either religion or atheism.

the best idea is probably to just live your life to it's fullest. no-one can say for sure what comes after this and if it happens to be hell then you'll know that god really is a dick-head; if he can't see over his anal-retentive notions of scarifice's and acceptance's then he is not the all forgiving god that we all get told (read: force fed) about. besides, by the time eternity is over i think most will be used to their continual suffering in hell, heaven would be too boring anyway- never being able to hurt yourself would be a drag.

because there are no ultimate truths in this world that back up either religion or atheism
What do the ultimate truths back up, then?

um, read the sentence again ;) no, seriously i don't think there are any really. i mean we can all agree on things we physically perceive but when it comes to explaining these things i don't think we'll ever get things precisely to a tee, no-one will collectively agree on anything these days. i guess ultimate truths for me are things that i perceive- no-one can change these perceptions of mine so they are ultimate to me. what i read into them or use to explain them are subject to change, i don't believe in god per ce for neumerous reasons, but they're my reasons, so no-one can make the perfect argument against my ideas because no-one will ever know what i think entirely. i dunno. nothing is ultimately true as we perceive things as humans, when our descriptions of things could be horribly wrong. i find our knowledge to finite to make asssumptions about the infinite, another reason i guess i don't believe in god. talk about stream of thought.

Originally posted by Raithere
So the only reason to do good is to save your own ass… err soul?
So much for altruism. I wonder if Allah will note the hypocrisy.

~Raithere

Sorry I didn't get to that in time, but who said that the only reason to do good is to save your own ass.....I didn't say that, but I'm a believer in putting light in my house before I become the street light. It's my philosophy, maybe harsh to some, but it works fine for me. First of all, I don't claim to know anything about how god will judge us, so I merely say, do your best and submit to the fact that you will one day be subjected to god's judgement and will have to accept with no choice the consequence of yourlife. I have submitted to that notion.

I have an Iranian friend at work that insist that he wants to go to hell. He said that all the bad girls are going to hell and he is sick and tired of the company of good girls.

I like good girls much more than bad girls. Am I the odd-ball, or is your friend?

It depends on your definition of good girl and bad girl. I think my friend is looking for a bad girl with no inhibitions. But I agree with you, it's not odd to like good girls, for example, I'm a good girls in a very very bad way.

'good' and 'bad' are simply relative, subjective concepts. No matter how you live your life some people are gonna see you as a saint, while others are gonna see you as a sinner. It's so easy to say the person who lives a "good" life is gonna go to heaven, and someone who lives a "bad" life is gonna go to hell. It's too easy. What makes it worse is that humans are the ones pronouncing judgement onto others who aren't too much different than themselves. Too many times I find religion is being used as an excuse to condemn others when it might work best as a way of "finding God."

Originally posted by Flores
Sorry I didn't get to that in time, but who said that the only reason to do good is to save your own ass.....I didn't say that, but I'm a believer in putting light in my house before I become the street light.I'm more concerned with why one does good.
Is it all about avoiding punishment or is there something deeper?

do your best and submit to the fact that you will one day be subjected to god's judgement and will have to accept with no choice the consequence of yourlife. I have submitted to that notion.There’s that submission theme again. ;) http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&goto=lastpost&threadid=25532

~Raithere

I don't beleive a word you wrote croper! :) Everyone beleives in God deep down. Anyone who says they don't is a liar. Everyone has a conscious and they act according to this. If this wasn't true then people would just walk into shops and take what they want (despite the fact that they probably wouldn't get caught) and people would just do whatever they wanted. However people don't and not just because they have been taught they will be caught and punished, because it's not always true, but becuase they think about the other people who will lose out. This could be something that is taught and I think it mostly is, but this is not always the case.

I don't beleive a word you wrote croper! Everyone beleives in God deep down.
sorry mate, this is not the case, i take myself as an example.

Everyone has a conscious and they act according to this. If this wasn't true then people would just walk into shops and take what they want (despite the fact that they probably wouldn't get caught) and people would just do whatever they wanted. However people don't and not just because they have been taught they will be caught and punished, because it's not always true, but becuase they think about the other people who will lose out. This could be something that is taught and I think it mostly is, but this is not always the case.
not sure what you're trying to get at here, but god doesn't make me feel guilty, if i do something bad i feel all guilty by myself. it's part taught response part instinct and in no way does it have anything to do with a presence of god. people who do act in such ways haven't been taught that there actions have negative reactions, that or they just don't give a shit. once again, not quite sure what you are trying to say, but god doesn't have a part in the concious decision's that people make- negative or positive.

Sefter,

Everyone beleives in God deep down. Anyone who says they don't is a liar.This implies you have been indoctrinated by religion all your life, which is very sad.

Originally posted by Sefter
Everyone has a conscious and they act according to this. If this wasn't true then people would just walk into shops and take what they want (despite the fact that they probably wouldn't get caught) and people would just do whatever they wanted.

People don't abide by common standards of morality because they fear the Lord. They comply, because they fear the Law, and the wrath of the righteous guardians thereof. It is by the unremitting hand of the constable, the enforcer, the bailiff, that the scrounging brigands are placated, not by His Word.

This implies you have been indoctrinated by religion all your life, which is very sad.

Not really. I think Plato used this same argument.

This implies you have been indoctrinated by religion all your life, which is very sad.
mmm, i agree. through life long indoctrination comes very limited thought, people don't get to make their minds up about anything much that way. many people have believed the same things before us, why don't people want to explore a new frame of mind with the new mellenium we're in- one that is going to herald some amazing technology, technology that will need to be paralled by many types of new thought; not the same rehashed stuff that people have been going through for generations now.