In an ongoing IRC discussion, another person referenced this article, and the following sentence: and stated, "That's true. Why not? Are we being hypocrites?" Russia isn't my government. And I don't live in Paris or Rome. I expect there would be more protest over that issue in Paris than the streets of the USA, but I don't really care. Whether people "ought to" have poured out into the streets to protest the Chechen war is irrelevant to the present crisis Russia was, and is, fighting a part of its territory that seeks to break off. I wish the Chechens luck and I'm sorry that Russia has fought them by annihilating anything that passed for Chechen civilization. But I can't really do anything to affect the attitude of Russia towards Chechnya. It's not clear that average Russians can either. Aside from that, Russia isn't asking France to join it in demolishing every Chechen city and village. The US is asking France and Germany to lend material aid and personnel to whatever we're about to do to Iraq. The US needs real complicity from its traditional allies. What we're up to is usually called naked aggression towards a sovereign country, and it's forbidden under the United Nations Charter. Unlike those of us in the United States, protesters in Western Europe actually have a chance of affecting their government's actions and thus, at the remote edge of possibility, they can affect our own government's actions. That increases the imperative to demonstrate many-fold. So, to the spinmeisters insinuating we don't live what we preach or apply it selectively, I give a firm "up yours". :m: Peace.
What not actively opposing the Cechnya situation does, goofy, is negate the notion of "moral sense" which so many protestors have argued as their reason for being against the Iraqi war. If simple subjective morals aren't your reason for protesting then be my guest. If simply "peace" is not your reason for protesting, then be my guest. But to the protestors who are yelling on the street because they believe war is "wrong" at all turns - get your ass out there and protest Chechnya. And don't try and tell me Americans protesting would do no good, or European protesting would do no good. If the Euro governments listen to their people (and some do) and the US government does at all (hey, if a Democrat gets in power, who knows) there could very well be Western pressure on Russia to get in line.
Tyler, I've been outspoken against it in my own small influence. There have been attempts in US government to correctly condemn the Chechnya disaster (that's of course completely squashed now). Any credible human rights organizations have been all over it, Doctors Without Borders, Amnesty, HRW, etc. "But to the protestors who are yelling on the street because they believe war is "wrong" at all turns - get your ass out there and protest Chechnya." Good advice, and I'm taking it. Sen. Patrick Leahy, Vermont Democrat, would also agree with you, Tyler: "These atrocities by Russian soldiers in Chechnya are war crimes; there is no other thing they can be called. And if the United States is unwilling to call them war crimes, then I think we damage our credibility."
Probably a simplistic view, but the US didn't have a hand in fueling the Chechnya....maybe Iraq is a concern mainly because it's damage control. If the UN had concerns of a situation, and called on the US and other countries to provide the physical aspects of peacekeeping, I'd see no problem. But it's obvious the US is the dominant force here, and somehow that seems inappropriate. The UN could be seen as a puppet for US motives.
Tyler single-handedly destroys the pretense of anti-war protestors claiming to be altruistically working for victims of violation by government everywhere. Anti-war protestors are as selective in their issues/agendas as the very governments against which they choose to demonstrate. Good job, Tyler. As long as protestors demonstrate selectively, they're easily ignored as issue-based and not conviction-based. None have been demonstrating for the right of Iraqis to live free of the murderous/torturous tendencies of the Ba'athists. The moral/ethical relativism of professional and situational pacifisits is made so easy to ignore, and no impediment to proactive corrections.
and of corse you have to be right on every issue how many civilans died in checna Vs how many have died as a result of US santions on Iraq? how much "colateral damage" are you willing to accept THIS time? how much "colateral damage" was REALLY in afganistan? are russia holding forign nationals as well as US citizans in a state of legal limbo in contevention of international law? is russia threatning the use of Nukes again? no one says that chesnia is right but more bloodshed isnt ok all the same whats the bigger threat to world peace russia or the US seeing as the US has gone from one war to the next without even slowing?
whats the bigger threat to world peace russia or the US seeing as the US has gone from one war to the next without even slowing? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is it not the same war?the war on terrorism?
Mr.G: "Anti-war protestors are as selective in their issues/agendas as the very governments against which they choose to demonstrate. Agreed- but we are far more honest about themPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
The people fighting against Russia in Chechnya are predominantly Moslem... Moslems are in the minority in Chechnya..
