At the VMA, Eminem was talking about beating up Moby or something. So everyone started booing Eminem.

In the re-run, they edited out the booing. That is really gay.

hahaha. glad i saw the first.. and i must add.... it was great to show g-n-r. wish i would've listen to that guy and put a tape in the vcr. but hey. im sure it will be in constant broadcast for the next two weeks. its mtv.

im glad he did it huh.... he has the balls to say what most of us are too woosey to say.... even though he might not mean it.

It's not about balls, it's about marketing. Eminem says anything which will either piss people off, or have them saying "he's honest", whatever will get his face in the news and sell him CDs. He wants your money.

A friend of mine pointed out a few weeks ago, as relates Eminem specifically and the rap art in general: Yo, "Em", your name is "Marshall". Why is it that rappers are always about "keeping it real" unless "it" is themselves?

What I think is funny about it is that Eminem basically admitted that he was scared. Moby? So what if Marshall will hit a man with glasses? All it really shows is that real musicians scare Eminem sh@tless.

And why is it that anyone who talks so much about themselves as Eminem is prone to do is courageous for "telling it like it is"?

Hey, You Killed Jesus--what does that mean, that it was "gay"? I mean, life is much happier without the booing, but we all could have done without Marshall in the first place.

I would like to thank all the dead-eyed, slack-jawed morons who made this possible. I hold the buyers of Eminem albums in the same esteem I hold the buyers of Milli Vanilli, Michael Bolton, Kenny G, or Vanilla Ice, among others. Thank you so much for helping keep our airwaves packed with crap.

Think of it this way--Americans make jokes about Germans because Germans apparently bought or buy David Hasselhof albums in droves.

Anyone looked at our pop charts lately?

And when you stop to think about that stupidity of the masses, just for kicks stop and think that the American masses also whittled their electoral choices down to Gore and Bush.

Oh, well. At least Marshall's not "Artist of the Millenium".

Five short steps to make your own Eminem album

(1) Press "RECORD" on tape recorder
(2) Press "START" on drum machine
(3) Whine like a baby for forty minutes
(4) Pay a DJ friend to cut in samples of Miles Davis, Van Halen, and Slayer
(5) Sit back and wonder if it wouldn't be easier to get paid to bitch if you were in Papa Roach

Soon enough, you too can be threatening people on national TV.

I disagree with the notion that Eminem says anything other people are too woozy to say. After all, it seems a better question as to why anyone pays for it? When I was in college, I could sit around and listen to my girlfriend's father threaten people, bash gays, and rip on women. And that didn't cost me a dime.

Whether it's the VMA, the Grammys, or just the Billboard Top 40, remember the mantra of pop music: I'm so cool. I'm just like everyone else. I'm so cool. I'm just like everyone else.

Think about the tastes of collectives. Look at what it really is you're paying for with Eminem. If he wants to make a statement about how tough he is, he ought to cut a burning Cadillac into pieces onstage with a chainsaw while wearing only a jockstrap.

When I heard Eminem's remarks on M2, all I could think was, We miss you Wendy, wherever you are.

Sad thing is that I'm not particularly upset at Marshall. Rather, if I bother to think about it, I'm more pissed at all the little spunkheads that buy his CD's and wear his hair.

Think about the tastes of collectives.

--Tiassa :cool:

Did Eminem give a reason for wanting to beat up Moby?

Wow tiassa, add some beats, try to rhyme some, and keep bitching like that and you might be able to make a whiny album like Eminem.

"Thank you so much for helping keep our airwaves packed with crap."

You're not required to listen to what is on the "airwaves". I don't watch MTV or listen to the radio.

Tiassa, would you marry me? :)

-lol-.. but i thought.... mhh.. maybe im wrong..

anyhow..

he's an entertainer, not a religous leader. his job is to entertain. and when i listen.... i feel entertained. ..its always fun to listen to what he comes up with next.

no- you're right, nightfall:D

Did anyone ever notice that in all his songs he refers to himself constantly. Ego? Anyone...

yes. and i like his ego. its better than "boom boom boom, i gotta ho.. boom bom boom look at my dough..."

no- you're right, nightfall
-wanders off giggling-

Saith

Nah. You might notice how little I refer to myself in that post. It just wouldn't be "real" enough, you know?You're not required to listen to what is on the "airwaves".Well, duh. That's why I don't. I haven't listened to commercial radio for ten years. As a matter of fact, we found in Seattle that the more people decide not to listen to commercial radio stations, the more prominent and aggressive the stations become. Personally, music seems better when the people are allowed to like or dislike it, and not when the record company spends a bunch of money trying to incite radio stations and MTV to play the record more.

Gerbile

Really, I'm just horrible with laundry. I can cook, but that's about my only contribution to domestic bliss ;)

Nightfall

What they come up with next: that's how I feel about a lot of artists in the world--writers, musicians, directors ....

But I'm curious as to what makes it so entertaining to listen to a guy whine about how cool he is and who he doesn't like.

I keep waiting for someone to walk up to him on the street and beat his head in. After all, it seems to be the thing to do when you don't like someone.

And, Nightfall, considering the comparison you offered, I might advise that you try listening to actual music sometime. When "ego" isn't what you're buying, I guarantee you a better music-listening experience. Try Belle and Sebastian's I'm Waking Up to Us; it's a CD-single (I think they call it an Ep, but there's an oft-abused designation) that doesn't cost a whole lot, features much musicality, and at least 2/3 of the lyrical content is about the character of "I". ("I need someone to take some joy in something I do" or "I love my car ...") You can have it both: ego and quality. Or the Sisters of Mercy ("I want more ... I need all the love I can get, and I need all the love that I can't get to ...")

Firefly

I had assumed it jealousy. He's outclassed by Moby, and I can imagine that Moby made an Eminem joke at some point. I would think the press trail on this would be huge, but that's how little I care as to not look it up. But if it's not envy, then I'm puzzled as to why Marshall would bother with the stunt. Maybe he's just that freakin' stupid.

In General

Most days I ignore Eminem. But when he threatens people on television in a desperate attempt to jack up his waning credibility, in a desperate attempt to give the image of "being real", I tend to let my thoughts be known when the subject comes up.

You know, I don't necessarily need for virtues to be "cool". I don't care what people talk about in their lyrics. But once, just once I would like to see the general public get behind good musicians when it's not by accident. Just once I would like to see good music be considered cool and real when it's not by sheer accident of the record companies' luck.

Yeah, it's selfish. And I do have to listen to those damn airwaves if I choose to enter the public sphere at all. It's not like I can escape it. I wonder when the Muzak Eminem is coming. After all, I used to hear really bad synth-string arrangements of Nirvana, Bowie, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, and so forth, even Motley Crüe and Poison. And people wonder why I don't go out as much anymore.

And in the meantime, radio, a medium that has never met its full potential, continues to be wasted on the Eminems, Kid Rocks, and Destiny's Children ... anyone ever wonder how an album can be a "hit" before it's even released?

I tell you: if the music is good, they don't have to market it like that.

If I walk up to you and say, "You want to f--k me," what do you say?

On the other hand, if a record company walks up to you and says, "You will like this song," why do people just nod and say, "I will like this song ...."?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

When I referred to the editing as "gay", I meant that this was a possibly career-killing move on his part, and MTV edited it to make it look like nothing happened. That marks my disapproval.

The sooner we can get rid of Eminem, the better. I personally hope he makes more disasterous PR moves.

I like this last mini-essay of yours, Tiassa. :)

I find Eminem over-hyped and more than a bit pathetic. He is like a child who picks fights just to get the attention.

:D To hell with laundry!!!

Earth needs more people with your opinions. :cool:

Thank you, You Killed Jesus. I just needed clarification on that. It always puzzles me when people employ new, random definitions of words like that.

Unfortunately, it's only a career-killing move on Eminem's part if the people who listen to his music are intelligent enough to not worship selfishness.

Frankly, I don't think it was a career-killing move.

At best I could say he's trying to be Andy Kaufman. But I love Andy too much to think that true. If that was actually the case, then Marshall would be a little bit smarter (okay, a whole lot smarter) about how to do pull off such an imitation.

Xev ... why thank you :D And I think you have it exactly right. Overhyped and childish form the mere tip of the stupid iceberg.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Five short steps to make your own Eminem album
3) Whine like a baby for forty minutes

Guess you should have thrown in "and talk about yourself". But yeah, he does talk about himself a lot. Can't really say I've ever thought about it myself. But then again Im not a big fan of rap, so I rarely listen to Eminem.

Well, duh.

Lol, I think we both know what I meant. Im quite sure that if you know how to post then you know how not watch TV or listen to the radio.

On the other hand, if a record company walks up to you and says, "You will like this song," why do people just nod and say, "I will like this song ...."?

That's a huge overexaggeration.

SaithThat's a huge overexaggeration.Is it? If you watch closely, the record industry has a habit of advertising a "hit single" before it is even released. I noticed it with a Backstreet Boys album a couple of years ago, but it seems to me, in retrospect, that this has been going on for a long time. I think I noticed the same with Beyonce Knowles' single not too long ago.

Furthermore, there is a tradition in the record industry once known as payola (http://www.history-of-rock.com/payola.htm). This is the practice of the record companies paying radio stations to give certain songs more airplay. What you're hearing on the radio is purchased advertising for a limited number of albums. It's still a problem, as documented in this 2001 Salon article (http://dir.salon.com/ent/feature/2001/03/14/payola/index.html). The online magazine has kept after the story (http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2002/06/25/pfp_congress/). ABC's 20-20 (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/2020_payola_020524.html) has even tackled the story. What you hear in the Top 40 is essentially what people have paid for you to hear.

And when you stop to think about the rest of the pop music culture, it's dizzying. MTV tells you what's cool with a "buzz clip". MTV bans videos according to ideology. Think of what is acceptable on MTV and then watch Soundgarden's Jesus Christ Pose video and explain to me why that video was "inappropriate" for airplay. Socialite magazines and tabloids slobber all over the "stars", and record stores hand out free "magazines" containing mush articles on the latest pop rage.

Record companies tell people what to like. It's shocking how many of them just nod and put the money down. It reminds me of a Simpsons episode ... You are watching Fox .... ("We are watching Fox.")

A little bit about, for instance, my own favorite bands and where I hear them in the public sphere:

• Floater: not on the radio, not on MTV
• Rheostatics: not on the radio, not on MTV
• Clumsy Lovers: not on the radio, not on MTV
• Boiled in Lead: not on the radio, not on MTV
• Belle & Sebastian: public (college) radio, not on MTV

What I didn't hear versus what I did (at relevant and related times):

• Did NOT hear Rufus Wainwright; did hear Dylan's son (Wallflowers?) covering Bowie
• Did NOT hear Screaming Trees; did hear Nelson
• Do NOT hear Floater; do hear System of a Down, Puddle of Mudd, and a host of similar bands

Now, we can say what we want about people's opinions. Clumsy Lovers and Boiled in Lead--there's a couple of bands who would rarely make pop radio anyway. But the point is that there are actually better musicians and there is better music out there than what is popular. This would be just fine if it wasn't for the fact that when we, say, consider that second list, the reason I heard Dylan's kid covering Bowie, the reason I heard Nelson, and the reason I hear a bunch of poseur heavy bands on the airwaves is because the record companies are paying off the radio stations to play that stuff instead of Rufus Wainwright, Screaming Trees, or Floater. Think how it must feel for Floater, to be the best band in the state, possibly in three states, and not be able to get airplay in your own hometown.

One of my favorite social activities is to take a friend who doesn't hear much live music into the club scene, and watch their jaw drop. Most people don't know how much good music is in their own neighborhood, mostly because the record companies spend so much money, time, and effort convincing people that this or that is the only music that matters. I remember taking a friend to a show at Seattle's Sit & Spin (a bar/rock room/laundromat) to see Kent 3 and Wellwater Conspiracy. The music was crushing, and it was fun to point out all the local music icons that had turned out for the show--there was a guy from Mudhoney, there was a guy from the Melvins, that sort of thing. Changed his life. Or taking a friend to the Owl & Thistle to see a friend of mine in a jazz quartet; he was surprised to see the room packed to the gills with ravenous fans, and was even more surprised when he found out what passed for jazz.

All I'm after is that if you stop listening to the record companies, the radio airwaves, and the cottage-industry press surrounding pop music, there's a lot more good stuff out there. It's a better world. Watching someone realize that there is an "out there" and that it's "better" out there is one of the rare innocent delights I still experience.

And that's why I don't think it's a huge overstatement. The record companies speak, and the consumers drool.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

>>>I disagree with the notion that Eminem says anything other people are too woozy to say. After all, it seems a better question as to why anyone pays for it? When I was in college, I could sit around and listen to my girlfriend's father threaten people, bash gays, and rip on women. And that didn't cost me a dime.

Tiassa, thanks so much for that tidbit, had me laughing my rear off.

Another reason I think crap gets radio play is that people download music off the net. The only music with radio play are the albums that sell in the store - purchased by fans who can't figure out how to read email let alone figure out how to use the usenet. This is my explanation for boy bands, at least!

Eminem is just trying to hold on to his 15 minutes of fame. Think of how Maryln Manson was so "offensive" - now he probably spends his days trying to figure out how he can get five minutes on Letterman.

And that's why I don't think it's a huge overstatement. The record companies speak, and the consumers drool.

They can't just tell you to like something and you like it. It has to be appealing to a large amount of people. No matter what record companies say or how influential you think they are, there are hundreds of bands out there that they could never get a large group of people to like. It's not like they can say, "Oh hey, Diet of Worms (or hundres of other bands) is tons cooler than Britney Spears and Eminem" and all of the sudden they are more populary than them. No matter how much you play them on the radio they are always going to suck. Sure they will get a larger fan base of course, that is what advertising does. And they will have more fans that other bands of equal shittyness. But they will never be on the Top 10.

Most bands I come across that aren't well known, aren't all that great. Occasionally I come across unknown bands that I like a ton, like Pig, Funker Vogt, Halo In Reverse, Assemblage 23 etc.. Which I like much much more than the songs I hear on the radio. But... the radio is trying to target the main crowd and Im not apart of that crowd. So I don't like radio.

Personally I think the fact that you think the record companies have more control than they really do, is because a lot of people don't realize that what is on MTV or the Radio isn't the best music, just the most popular music. And that it's not the only good music out there, just the only advertised music out there. There is a "best for the majority of tastes" and a "best for your taste". But there is no "best". And I alot of people don't realize that. And once they catch on they overexaggerate it and sometimes will even act like we are all brainwashed or something.

Kinda like those punks you see always talking about sell outs and corporate labels. They let it go to there heads, they see so many people ignoring things that have come to there attention, that they naturally overexaggerate it to try and get the point across. But they end up just looking goofy and childish. Or even Eminem. He does the same thing. He sees a flaw in America and overexaggerates it.

They can't just tell you to like something and you like it. It has to be appealing to a large amount of people. No matter what record companies say or how influential you think they are, there are hundreds of bands out there that they could never get a large group of people to like.Read the payola links again.

Denial, good Saith is not just a river in Egypt.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Did Eminem give a reason for wanting to beat up Moby?

Uhh ya, like Moby talking shit about everything that Eminem comes out with. Dissing him on MTV.

Those could be a few reasons.

"They can't just tell you to like something and you like it. It has to be appealing to a large amount of people. No matter what record companies say or how influential you think they are, there are hundreds of bands out there that they could never get a large group of people to like"

As I recall, New Kids on the Block was just some random kids that a record company pulled together and got everyone to like.

Lol. Ok if you really think that any band in the world can become popular if the record companies says so, fine with me.

As I recall, New Kids on the Block was just some random kids that a record company pulled together and got everyone to like.

Random? What they rolled some dice? Im sure they put thought into it. It's not like they would pull some homeless people of the street and give them harmonicas and say they are cool and everyone believes them and starts buying there albums.

Record companies do try to look at the majority of peoples interests, not just completely invent them. You're not ever going to turn on your radio and hear Ariah every 30 minutes on 3 different stations.

Ah, I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure NKOTB was just some kids that the company found that they figured were good looking enough that they made into a band. The members were friends and their eventual producer saw them all and created a band out of them by giving them a name, having writers write their songs, musicians play the instruments and, rumour has it, singers sing their songs.

i doubt that they (at least not all) of them had someone sing for them.. otherwise they would not have gone on later to have other careers as singers.. im not sure... but i think one or two of the members of LFO were members of NKOTB.

From the Austin-American Statesman (http://www.austin360.com/aas/life/ap/ap_story.html/Entertainment/AP.V8500.AP-MTV-Awards.html)But after accepting a trophy from Christina Aguilera--who appeared to want nothing to do with a man who has mocked her in song--he was booed for referring to the electronica star Moby as a girl. Moby, who has criticized Eminem's lyrics as misogynistic, was also spoofed in the "Without Me" video.

Taken aback by the boos, Eminem appeared to glance in Moby's direction and said, "I will hit a man with glasses."
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020830/i/1030679221.3825549431.jpg
Eminem, being tough.

From NME (http://www.nme.com/news/102436.htm)As part of the show he staged a mock murder of the dance star to the delight of fans. A Moby impersonator with a bald wig and red tracksuit walked on to the stage saying ‘Look at me! I’m a spaceboy’, and then flew up in the air.

Eminem then told fellow MC Obie Trice to "get my gun", before he aiming and firing in the direction of the impersonator. 'Moby' then fell to the ground, although it turned out to be a rag doll.Hmm ... sounds like he's threatening terrorism to me. Assassination, specifically ;)

Man, Eminem really is afraid of real musicians.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Eminem is just trying to hold on to his 15 minutes of fame. Think of how Maryln Manson was so "offensive" - now he probably spends his days trying to figure out how he can get five minutes on Letterman.

*Xev grins and remembers something*
Marilyn Manson Now Going Door-To-Door Trying To Shock People (http://www.theonion.com/onion3703/marilyn_mason.html)

Methinks that these antics give Eminem and his sort too much attention. In that vein....back to reading "Merrick" and blowing things up on the computer!

Xev, thanks for the link, that onion article was pretty funny :)

Originally posted by tiassa

Man, Eminem really is afraid of real musicians.



Since when has Moby ever been a real musician.:rolleyes:

I find it strange, that people are attacking Eminem for defending himself against what was said about him. Last time I checked, Moby started this feud, not Eminem.

What did Moby do to start this battle? I never heard, sorry.

tiassa, I like listening to Eminem. I'm 18. From your posts, I would guess that you are the elder. I like the rhythms and sounds of his loops and I think he's got a great knack for rapping. Sorry if you don't like him, but the majority of the youth, who make up the majority of "pop" radio station listeners, do.

I like the rhythms and sounds of his loops and I think he's got a great knack for rapping. Sorry if you don't like him, but the majority of the youth, who make up the majority of "pop" radio station listeners, do.

Of course, if the majority of youth were able to recognize talent, they would never listen to "rap" or "pop" music. ;)

What did Moby do to start this battle? I never heard, sorry.

NEW YORK (Top 40 Charts) - Wondering why Eminem singles out 'NSync 's Chris Kirkpatrick and Moby in his new song, "Without Me," from his forthcoming The Eminem Show?
The rapper told MTV's Total Request Live on Thursday (May 2) during the premiere of the video that it's because Kirkpatrick was the only boy band member who had the guts to say something back to him, after the rapper attacked the group and boy bands in general on his last album.

On why he attacks Moby in the song and video, Em sarcastically told TRL that he liked Moby, but feels bad that no one else does. The Moby attack is an obvious retaliation to the techno king's comments following the 2001 GRAMMY® Awards when he said the rapper was "very clever, but he's also a misogynist, a homophobe, a racist, and an anti-Semite".

http://top40-charts.com/news.php?nid=2764&string=Moby

im reading this thread and just had to say a few things:
first of all moby started this whole thing..static76 said it right, moby said on mtv about Eminem that he was a racist and all those things static76 said. (which is really so stupid to say because you can say many things about Eminem, but not that hes a racist, so obviously moby started talking shit while he didnt know what he was talking about). Then Eminem mentioned Moby in his song. Moby responded back saying that if Hailie (the 6 year old daughter of Eminem) would ever date a guy that would abuse her, it would be Eminems fault, because Eminem said this was ok. I guess this really pissed Em off, because his daughter means everything to him.

What kinda bothered me in this thread is that some people pretended that its so easy to make a cd like Eminem, just whine a bit and put some beats under it..well if you dont like his music, thats fine by me, everyone his or her taste, but you cant say he doesnt got any talent because he got great rhyming talents, try to make a rhyme like him which flows as his rhymes do, and see what i mean..

but you cant say he doesnt got any talent because he got great rhyming talents, try to make a rhyme like him which flows as his rhymes do, and see what i mean..

You mean like this:

Album: Slim Shady EP Song: Low, Down, Dirty
Warning, this shit's gon be rated R, restricted
You see this bullet hole in my neck? It's self inflicted
Doctor slapped my momma, "Bitch you got a sick kid"
Arrested, molested myself and got convicted
Wearing visors, sunglasses and disguises
Cause my split personality is having an identity crisis
I'm Dr. Hyde and Mr. Jekyll, disrespectful
Hearing voices in my head while these whispers echo
"Murder Murder Redrum"
Brain size of a bread crumb
Which drug will I end up dead from
Inebriated, till my stress is eleviated
"How in the fuck can Eminem and shady be related?"
Illiterate, illigitimate shit spitter
Bitch getter, hid in the bush like Margot Kidder
Jumped out (Ahhhh!) killed the bitch and did her
Use to let the babysitter suck my dick when I was little'er
Smoke a blunt while I'm titty fuckin Bette Midler
Sniper, waiting on your roof like the Fiddler
Y'all thought I was gonna rhyme with Riddler
Didn't Ya? Bring your bitch I wanna see if this dick gon' fit in her
[E] I'm low down and I'm shiftee!
"And if you hear a man that sounds like me smack him
and ask him where the fuck did he get his damn raps from.."
I lace tunes, I'm out this world like Space Moons
With a bunch crazed loons dismissin brains like braze wounds
Nothing but idiots and misfits, dipshits
Doing whippits, passed out like Sanford snippits
Where's the weed, I wanna tamper with it
I'ma let your grandpa hit it
Mix it up with cocaine so her can't forget it
Fuck it, maybe I'm a bum
But I was put on this earth to make your baby mama cum
So what I'm on is way beyond the bomb or any alcoholic beverage
Losing all of my leverage
Went up inside the First National Bank broke, and left rich
Walking bio-hazard causing wreckage
Smoked out like Eckridge
Band just making my neck itch
What the fuck? Gimme the tech bitch
You just lost your tip, there's a pubic hair in my breakfast
Got shit popping off like bottle cap tips
Get your cap peeled like the dead skin of your mama's chapped lips
Slap hips, support domestic violence
Beat your bitches ass while your kids stare in silence
I'm just joking, is Dirty Dozen's really dust smoking?
If all your shit's missing, than probably one of us broke in
Chorus
My head's ringing, like it was Spider Sense tingling
Lit it like Green Bay did when they shitted on New England
I'm out the game, put the second string in
This Brandy got my swinging
Bobbing back and forth like a penguin
Delinquent, toking microphones with Broken English
Make your mama be like "Ohh! This is good! Who sing this?"
"Slim Shady, his tape is dope, I love it
It's rugged, but he needs to quit talking all that drug shit."
It was predicted by a medic
I'd grow to be an addicted diabetic
Living off liquid Triametic
Pathetic, but I don't think this headache's ever vanishing
Panicing, I think I might have just took too much Anasin
Frozen Manaquin, posted stiffer than a statue
I think I'm dying, God is that you?
Somebody help me, before I OD on an LP
Take me to ER ASAP for and IV
Motherfuck JLB, they don't support no hip hop
They say that's where it ends, the closest they gon come is Tupac
It's politics, it's all a fix
Setup by these white blue collared hicks
Just to make a dollar off of black music
With a subliminal ball of tricks
But those can kiss ass and swallow dicks

Oh yeah, this is quality writing. :rolleyes:

^^^yep now can you rhyme like that??.. or try to rap with it with the song, you'll see it aint so easy, the song low down dirty that you just posted is very old, its a song from before he was a famous rapper, he grew lyrically, at least thats my opinion, some people think his best times were with his infinite album though (which was his first album before he got famous), anyways here is a part of a song from his new album which i like a lot (the song White America from the eminem show), and you will see he got real good rhyming skills:
[Eminem]
Look at these eyes, baby blue, baby just like yourself
If they were brown Shady lose, Shady sits on the shelf
But Shady's cute, Shady knew Shady's dimples would help
Make ladies swoon baby (ooh baby!) Look at my sales
Let's do the math - if I was black, I woulda sold half
I ain't have to graduate from Lincoln High School to know that
But I could rap, so fuck school, I'm too cool to go back
Gimme the mic, show me where the fuckin studio's at
When I was underground, no one gave a fuck I was white
No labels wanted to sign me, almost gave up I was like
Fuck it - until I met Dre, the only one to look past
Gave me a chance and I lit a FIRE up under his ass
Helped him get back to the top, every fan black that I got
was probably his in exchange for every white fan that he's got
Like damn; we just swapped - sittin back lookin at shit, wow
I'm like my skin is it startin to work to my benefit now? It's..

[Chorus]
White America! I could be one of your kids
White America! Little Eric looks just like this
White America! Erica loves my shit
I go to TRL; look how many hugs I get!

[Eminem]
See the problem is, I speak to suburban kids
who otherwise woulda never knew these words exist
Whose moms probably woulda never gave two squirts of piss
'til I created so much motherfuckin turbulence!
Straight out the tube, right into your living rooms I came
And kids flipped, when they knew I was produced by Dre
That's all it took, and they were instantly hooked right in
And they connected with me too because I looked like them
That's why they put my lyrics up under this microscope
Searchin with a fine tooth comb, it's like this rope
waitin to choke; tightenin around my throat
Watchin me while I write this, like I don't like this (Nope!)
All I hear is: lyrics, lyrics, constant controversy, sponsors working
round the clock to try to stop my concerts early, surely
Hip-Hop was never a problem in Harlem only in Boston
After it bothered the fathers of daughters startin to blossom
So now I'm catchin the flack from these activists when they raggin
Actin like I'm the first rapper to smack a bitch or say faggot, shit!
Just look at me like I'm your closest pal
The posterchild, the motherfuckin spokesman now for..
(chorus: ) white america!....

i think its personal if you dont like what he raps about..me personally dont like the always happyhappyhappy songs which has no real meaning..im not trying to convince anyone to listen to Eminem or to like what he says, but just want to point out he does got talents..

and you will see he got real good rhyming skills

Anyone can rhyme, if you got the time, and it don't mean shit, if you're not a half-wit.

"Rhyming skills" have nothing to do with quality writing.

im not trying to convince anyone to listen to Eminem or to like what he says, but just want to point out he does got talents.

Judging by his lyrics, his main talent is talking much while saying very little. You could sum up the entire song:

I am a white rapper making lots of money, screw you.

Sorry for.. not contributing to discussion, etc, but...

In that pic posted up there ... who's with Eminem? :confused:

Static76I find it strange, that people are attacking Eminem for defending himself against what was said about him. Last time I checked, Moby started this feud, not Eminem.If Eminem doesn't like being characterized as misogynist, anti-Semitic, or racist, perhaps he shouldn't spend so much time bitching and whining about other people. If Eminem thinks an abusive mate is suitable for his daughter, I question the value of everything in his world.

But if Eminem has to resort to threats in order to defend his credibility, we see what he has left in the tank. The VMA stunt was a terribly inefficient effort on Marshall's part.Since when has Moby ever been a real musician.Well, unlike Eminem, he can make his own albums, he can play his own instruments, and he knows what music is, as opposed to machismo hype. I'm not the biggest Moby fan by any means; I don't even own a Moby album. But he's definitively the better musician of the two.

Phrenetictiassa, I like listening to Eminem. I'm 18. From your posts, I would guess that you are the elder. I like the rhythms and sounds of his loops and I think he's got a great knack for rapping. Sorry if you don't like him, but the majority of the youth, who make up the majority of "pop" radio station listeners, do.Well, that's their problem. Given the fact that they're just responding to record companies telling them what they like, we see the problem with pop radio listeners. Perhaps at 18 being a professional bitch like Eminem seems a good use of studio resources, but at 29, I just want someone onstage who can play.

The problem I have with a "great knack for rapping" is that it reminds me of Vanilla Ice, who is infamous for saying things like, "Rap is the hardest music to write because you have to make the words rhyme."

He's white and he has "a great knack for rapping". This does not make him the Beastie Boys, and he ought to try something more substantive than imitation. But part of this ties in with someone else's comments:

JustmeWhat kinda bothered me in this thread is that some people pretended that its so easy to make a cd like Eminem, just whine a bit and put some beats under it..well if you dont like his music, thats fine by me, everyone his or her taste, but you cant say he doesnt got any talent because he got great rhyming talents, try to make a rhyme like him which flows as his rhymes do, and see what i mean..Making any album is generally tough. Admittedly, Nirvana's Bleach was a one-day album but you can tell it's possible by listening to it. But turn on a drum machine--now you don't need actual drumming rhythm, it's already there for you. Turn on a sample loop--now you don't need actual musical instruments. Compared to a My Bloody Valentine or a Radiohead or a Beach Boys or a Gorillaz, Eminem's production quality is midget. I have yet to hear an Eminem track that impresses me, lyrically, intellectually, or musically. Take a listen around to other professional bitches in the game. Eminem is one of the cheapest. You're welcome to list the "best" Eminem track you know of as far as production goes. I'll be happy to download it from Limewire or Acquisition and listen to it until my ears bleed, and then I'll be happy to tell you what I think of its production.

I mean, technically, Tiffany's debut album was not easy in a very similar way that Eminem's album was not easy. It takes a lot of work to compile an album. But the presence of an album does not a musician make.

In General

Seriously, think of it this way: If Moby had threatened Eminem, everybody would be shocked at the crass behavior. With Eminem, such lack of civility is what we've come to expect.

I don't care if people want to idolize it. That's their problem. However, when an issue of musical pride (being an Eminem fan) creates problems for people realizing that the man is a menacing, threatening boor, well? I mean, come on--if it had nothing to do with Eminem, if it was Thom Yorke or Bobby Gillespie or some such, people wouldn't be saying, "But ____ called their music what it is" as a defense for threats and harassment. Frankly, what's scariest about Eminem is his fans. They're dumb enough to buy it, but that's a matter of taste. However, it also seems they're dumb enough to defend threats of violence. What's the matter? Eminem can criticize other people in his music but he has to threaten someone who points out the obvious about his music?

I mean, seriously--Eminem must be scared of real musicians.

If he had what it took to prove his point in the studio, he would. But he doesn't, so he behaves like a child. So appealing to children, I guess; what are you gonna do? Oh, that's right--spend more money buying even more of his stuff.

What's funny is that in the beginning, all I ever had against Eminem was a house joke because one of our friends was on a fashion tear that happened to coincide with the release of Slim Shady; for weeks it was not uncommon to have some slobbering Eminem fan actually think this guy was Marshall. Maybe it seems strange to me since I'm of the internet generation that's capable of looking up my favorite musicians' tour and appearance schedules, but on days when Eminem is known to be on the opposite coast? Come on .... Really, all I ever had against Eminem in the beginning was a private house joke about a friend's haircut.

And then I listened to the music. It's not horrible, Even "bad" is my own sense of opinion. But it's a cheap, overblown pop performance. He's a closet diva in his own mind. Can he evolve? Or will the next album be more of the same?

He's not a musician, he's a performer. Like Whitney Houston, for instance. She may have a better voice that Rufus Wainwright, but at least Rufus could remember the goddamn lyrics to Somewhere Over the Rainbow.

As a last note: Smile is coming in the next few years. Perhaps even earlier than that. Brian Wilson, of the Beach Boys, has promised to give us that album at some point. Those who remember the studio release of Smiley-Smile will be pleased that they finally get the real album. But it's 35 years later, and the labor of love is not yet complete.

Here's the thing: When it comes out, the general consensus is that it will still be decades ahead of contemporary pop music.

So I won't be kind to the "effort" of making one of Marshall's albums. Just like I'm not kind to the "effort" of any manufactured album. In the annals of recording history are a bunch of guys who people just don't know about who have done all the real work to make it possible for dumb-assed albums like Eminem's to even be made. I prefer to honor their talents instead. Professional bitching is not a talent, or else I could be making a fortune on this topic alone. As long as I'm looking at talent issues, I might as well stand with the talented ones.

Really: talent isn't a defense. Effort isn't a defense. A "knack for rapping" isn't a defense. If Eminem had any talent, he would crush Moby with talent, and not reduce himself even more with threats. Seriously: Lennon recorded "Serve Yourself" allegedly as a response to Dylan. People do it. "Serve Yourself" is one of the coolest songs ever written. Of course, I also have a demo version of it with incomplete lyrics, so I get to be in on a couple of jokes that makes the song that much more fun. But Lennon didn't have to threaten Dylan when something Bob did bugged him. He just wrote a damn good song and everybody knew the score when they heard it.

You would think that if Eminem had any talent or common sense, he would be able to step up his game and show his superiority to Moby.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Eminem writes awful music. Fact.

Originally posted by tiassa
Static76If Eminem doesn't like being characterized as misogynist, anti-Semitic, or racist, perhaps he shouldn't spend so much time bitching and whining about other people. If Eminem thinks an abusive mate is suitable for his daughter, I question the value of everything in his world.

But if Eminem has to resort to threats in order to defend his credibility, we see what he has left in the tank. The VMA stunt was a terribly inefficient effort on Marshall's part.Well, unlike Eminem, he can make his own albums, he can play his own instruments, and he knows what music is, as opposed to machismo hype. I'm not the biggest Moby fan by any means; I don't even own a Moby album. But he's definitively the better musician of the two.




:rolleyes: tiassa, Eminem has never said anything about Jews, he sure as hell isn't racist (the concept is ridiculous when you consider who he hangs with), he's not aniti-gay(even Elton John felt the Media was over blowing everything), and he's not anti-women(he's repeatedly called out deadbeat dads in his songs and always say his songs are a reflection of the craziness in our society). So basically, Moby LIED and was talking out of his ass.

The funny thing is I'm not even a big Eminem fan, but to blast a guy for defending himself is just plain idiotic. What has Eminem done that is so wrong??? He said Britney, N'Sync and the pop music out today is corny, that's all. I guess it's okay for everyone else to say Pop groups suck, but not him...:rolleyes:

Eminem has never said anything about Jews, he sure as hell isn't racist (the concept is ridiculous when you consider who he hangs with), he's not aniti-gayWell, as someone quoted his lyrics:So now I'm catchin the flack from these activists when they raggin
Actin like I'm the first rapper to smack a bitch or say faggot, shit! It's a bit of an overstatement on his part. Nobody's ragging on him for being the first to hit his woman or call gay people "faggot" in anger. Rather, everybody's ragging him for keeping it up. The problem was stale when he was in kindergarten.

You'll notice his "defense" in his song is "I'm not the first" and not "I don't do that".

It's a petty excuse.

In the meantime, I would ask anybody to translate, say, the first verse of "White America" (chosen since we have the lyrics at hand). Give us your best opinion. Anyone? Anyone? Or how about that second? I'm not asking for a doctoral dissertation on Eminem, but since people wish to say he's not when his defense is that he's not the first, I'm wondering what their actual take on the lyrics might be.

Here's an interesting article (http://uspolitics.about.com/library/weekly/aa022301a.htm) which discusses some of what we're covering in this topic:Eminem's lyrics (yes, I've listened to the album) certainly are a reflection of society - they are filled with bigotry, hatred, and exhortations to violence._ But it is a shocking fallacy to suggest that hate is not hate so long as the sentiment is shared by a larger community._ David Duke does not exist in a vacuum, and Timothy McVeigh is not the nation's sole militia sympathizer._ Yet we do not exonerate their hate simply because they are members of larger communities of intoleranceI'll leave their sampling of Eminem's lyrics to anyone who wants to present a defense; I'm not particularly trustful of such short exceprts as the author provided, but there you have it. It's a two-page article that includes this jab over Eminem's Grammy performance: Apparently, when the rape of women and the murder of gays is at issue, Eminem's lyrics must be defended at all costs._ But when big bucks are at stake, Greene's and Eminem's free-speech absolutism is quickly tossed to the cutting room floorTo the other, just to show I'm not that biased, a link in Eminem's defense (http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0224/goldstein.php):There is a relationship between Eminem and his time. His bigotry isn't incidental or stupid, as his progressive champions claim. It's central and knowing—and unless it's examined, it will be free to operate. Not that this music makes men rape any more than the Klan-lionizing imagery in Birth of a Nation creates racists. The real effect is less personal than systematic. Why is it considered proper to speak out against racism and anti-Semitism but not against sexism and homophobia? It should also be pointed out that you are correct about anti-Semitism. Moby still thinks he has heard Eminem say anti-Semitic things, but that's apparently it's own issue. However, as Moby noted immediately after his most famous Eminem crack: In any case, even if he's not an anti-Semite, he's still a racist, a homophobe and a misogynist.

Whew! And we were worried about anti-Semitism. I have to admit, since the guy's just a racist, homophobe, and misogynist, I feel a whole lot better.

The thing is that I'm not going to censor it. Not going to tell him he can't say it. But I will use my equivalent right to note the stupidity of maintaining such a figure. I tend to agree with Moby when he says, I was talking to somebody earlier about the notion of Eminem being in the continuum of Elvis Presley, the Sex Pistols, Public Enemy, and Kurt Cobain. But the difference is that they were all rebellious in the sense that they were extending boundaries -- creating culture that broadened people's perspectives. The problem with Eminem is he's creating culture that appeals to the lowest common denominator. I'll even tell you a bit of a sob-story, just because it might help.

Start in, say, eighth grade, the beginning of my heavy metal years. After the expected enchantment of Twisted Sister, it would be a little while before I embraced harder music as a whole. In the end, though, my metal tastes defied conventional wisdom. Metallica? Sure, they're cool, but they're overblown. And one of the things that has marked Metallica in my book over the years is the tendency of their fans to be belligerent idiots. I don't hold the band responsible per se, but I certainly don't want to be part of that movement. Really, when I watched a backwater yokel take a swing at a black kid after saying, "You will die when I say you must die" ("Disposable Heroes", Master of Puppets) I became very attuned to the way music does or does not influence its listeners; bear in mind, also, that this is at the rise of the PMRC.

And this has cost me some in the long run; there are a few experiences I wished I was more open to, but I remember sitting around listening to Ministry fans talk about how intelligent they (the fans) were while spending the other two-thirds of their brainpower seeking beer and pussy. I actually like Ministry from time to time. But I never did get close to the music because getting close to the people who were also close to the music was unpalatable.

And then came the post-metal, post-rap rise of whatever we want to call it, which has resulted in the modern day in Kid Rock. Unfortunately, that blunder is on my generation; we were so happy when Anthrax and Public Enemy finally did their thing that we actually were stupid enough to foresee a brighter future.

Almost visceral to me is the backwater, Oregon meth-rage which came with a lot of that heavy rap. I can remember sitting around with guys claiming to be in gangs (in a town of 30,000, okay) talking about getting "beaten in" and then going out looking for pussy. I never got close to that hard rap movement, the central figures of which are, thankfully, lost to my memory.

People can say what they want about the high art of Eminem's lyrics. But I don't see it in the people who advocate his music. I see the same shitty attitudes, the same self-indulgent horseshit, that I saw nine and ten years ago. I mean, sure, there's something to be said for individual interpretation, but I'm not about to go watch Shoah because it's uplifting. Nor am I going to pretend for the sake of any subculture that I hear the same things they do.

So funny, that, as I mount my self-righteous podium. I find it distasteful when the guy on the barstool next to me says he wants to fuck this or that fourteen year-old girl. Do I blame Eminem? No. But I don't want to be part of that, and at some point that kind of thinking that I recoil from can be dangerous.

So it is possible for me to accept what people say about Eminem's lyrics, but I just don't see it. And I don't think the fans speaking on his behalf are doing him a whole lot of good. It's nice to show support, but I don't find the Eminem menagerie to be very coherent or aware. Just like those past crowds, it is the fans first and foremost that show the lyrical weakness of the "artist". It just seems to me that if Eminem's lyrics really were taken at their alleged high art value, his fans wouldn't be so incoherent, and his defense wouldn't rest on the idea that he's not the first.What has Eminem done that is so wrong??? Not much, really. Mostly I find his position objectionable the way I find the OCA objectionable, or Donald Wildmon objectionable. The position seems stupid, small-minded, divisive, and anti-progressive. It is his prerogative, but what obligation have I to respect his conclusions as legitimate?

In the end, what I see is this:

• Eminem, in the best interpretation, is a "realist" who criticizes what he sees wrong in society
• Moby criticizes Eminem
• Eminem threatens violence

That's the problem. He's a petty hypocrite at best, and the infamous hatemonger at worst.

I just want to say, "What's the matter, Marshall? Why are you so pissed that someone's being critical? After all, you make a living at it."

And the anti-Semitic bit--while that's Moby's issue as we see, and I trust that he thinks he's heard Slim Shady be anti-Semitic--is well and fair. Who is going to claim factual merit for Eminem's lyrics? The Margot Kidder line, for instance: Illiterate, illigitimate shit spitter
Bitch getter, hid in the bush like Margot Kidder
Jumped out (Ahhhh!) killed the bitch and did her
Use to let the babysitter suck my dick when I was little'er
Smoke a blunt while I'm titty fuckin Bette Midler
Sniper, waiting on your roof like the Fiddler
Y'all thought I was gonna rhyme with Riddler
Didn't Ya? Bring your bitch I wanna see if this dick gon' fit in her I'm sure he didn't mean to say that he hid in the bushes because he was in the middle of a massive drug-related psychiatric breakdown, you know. And I won't even get into the merits and demeits of titty-fucking Bette Midler. As long as you don't have to make sense, it's real easy to rhyme.

But other than that, he's on par with Beavis & Butthead: Bathe her, and bring her to me. Heh-heh.

I keep thinking of this one song from Primal Scream, the title of which escapes me. The chorus is simple: No you don't give a shit that your daughter was raped; you just called her a slut and said that she was to blame. Repeat it a few times; it's catchy.

There are a few witty lines I could stick in here about how that line relates to Eminem, but there is a difference 'twixt the two. In Primal Scream's case, it happens to be social commentary, which is an interesting distinction because so is Eminem. But unlike rappers, when musical lyricists move into such commentary, they don't make it so strictly about themselves.

That's a huge difference. Some lyricists choose to talk about society. Eminem chooses to talk about himself. A friend of mine pointed out earlier today that as far as we know, Eminem has no more hit, raped or otherwise hurt a woman than Johnny Cash did murder Delia. Yet Marshall's lyrical defense is that he's not the first ....

Perhaps what bugs me so much about Eminem is this persistent impression that the self is so important that reality is subordinate to it. Nobody's really going to pretend that by focusing on one's own desires and frustrations so exclusively that the world's going to get any better, are they?

Maybe I should blame parents. While it's not a statistical truism, it seems that of the people I know, the less musical education they have, the more prone they are to like "music" that centers around arrogant lyrical proclamations.

I went to a school of middle-class students and up. It was quite European; one year that I recall, 0.2% of the student body was black; the next year it was 0.6%. Strangely, the majority (four of the six) of black students didn't like rap. However, rap was huge among the white kids, who went from calling everyone "Nigga" to flashing hand-signs to each other in class, to bringing their "posses" onto school grounds, eventually to carrying firearms. I'm not going to blame the rap; I'm going to blame the stupid, stupid kids who listened to it.

But I'm not just going to sit back and say, "Oh, Eminem is making an artistic statement. That's alright, then."

The clear majority of Eminem fans I've known face-to-face do not impress me as intelligent enough to understand an artistic statement.

And now, here's Marshall, threatening people, and relying on this menagerie of fans to keep him afloat in this one.

--Tiassa :cool:

WOW tiassa! I just read your book...er...post and I must say you just don't get it.:rolleyes:

You quoted these lyrics:
"So now I'm catchin the flack from these activists when they raggin
Actin like I'm the first rapper to smack a bitch or say faggot, shit! "

While I don't agree with people saying the word "faggot", do you realize that's a slam guys use to put down other guys as wimpy, and it usually doesn't even have anything to do with gay people. Eminem used it in that manner.

Most of the time he used the word "bitch", he was reffering to his mom and she may fit the bill of one.

Tiassa, you miss the MAJOR point of Eminem's song that his "unitelligent fans" as you put it, understand. Eminem is about PARODY and SATIRE on our current society, most people recognize this...

Let me explain it to you. Eminem plays a character in each of his songs (for example "Stan"). He parodies the ills we see in society today, yes he doesn't hold back his language, but that's why many like his work.

It should also be pointed out that you are correct about anti-Semitism. Moby still thinks he has heard Eminem say anti-Semitic things, but that's apparently it's own issue. However, as Moby noted immediately after his most famous Eminem crack: In any case, even if he's not an anti-Semite, he's still a racist, a homophobe and a misogynist.

Whew! And we were worried about anti-Semitism. I have to admit, since the guy's just a racist, homophobe, and misogynist, I feel a whole lot better.

The thing is that I'm not going to censor it. Not going to tell him he can't say it. But I will use my equivalent right to note the stupidity of maintaining such a figure. I tend to agree with Moby when he says,

At least you admit he's not an anti-Semite....

Once again, how is Eminem racist????? I have never heard him say a racist thing.

As for being homophobic.....since you don't believe me, here's what Elton John thinks...

John is no stranger to sensitivity, but some might see such sentiment as contrasting somewhat with his ringing endorsement of controversial rapper Eminem, with whom John performed "Stan" at last year's Grammy Awards. Not only does John continue to praise the foul-mouthed superstar, he condemns the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, which vehemently protested Eminem's The Marshall Mathers LP (2000).

"I think they are a bunch of a--holes, sorry guys," John said. "I wouldn't have [worked with him] if he was homophobic, and if he was he wouldn't have asked me."

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1449631/20011005/story.jhtml

Why is Moby allowed to bash Eminem, yet Eminem is wrong to counter.....


All I can say is if you don't understand that Eminem's songs and lyrics are a parody of society, and a commentary of what we see in America today, then you missed the whole point....:)

If they are satire and parody than why is his reaction at being booed to threaten with violence? Or is that also just part of the act?

Originally posted by alanb
If they are satire and parody than why is his reaction at being booed to threaten with violence? Or is that also just part of the act?

Moby was booing him and if I'm correct he said,"Keep booing little girl, I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses".

Is that statement really that bad? Half the people in this country, say worse things to drivers that tick them off on the roads everyday, than that....

Would you prefer Eminem to have said,"Please Mr. Moby, don't hurt my feelings by booing"? :D

I would like to thank all the dead-eyed, slack-jawed morons who made this possible. I hold the buyers of Eminem albums in the same esteem I hold the buyers of Milli Vanilli, Michael Bolton, Kenny G, or Vanilla Ice, among others. Thank you so much for helping keep our airwaves packed with crap.

Yur veery welcome, ma'am. My pa says to do what the misses say.

...

Please... first, you criticize Eminem and now you stereotype his entire fanbase? Are you trying to make people angry? Because I know someone who excels in that area :cool:

Originally posted by static76
Moby was booing him and if I'm correct he said,"Keep booing little girl, I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses".

Is that statement really that bad? Half the people in this country, say worse things to drivers that tick them off on the roads everyday, than that....

Would you prefer Eminem to have said,"Please Mr. Moby, don't hurt my feelings by booing"? :D


You'd just think that such a clever little scamp would have something wittier to say than 'i'm gonna hit you if you don't quit laughing at me'.

i just lost my entire post that i written out, so i have to type it allll over again!! how annoying, but alright here i go again..Judging by his lyrics, his main talent is talking much while saying very little. You could sum up the entire song: I am a white rapper making lots of money, screw you
you obviously didnt get the song white america, this is basicly what he says in the song: if i would have been black i wouldnt have sold this much, and people wouldnt have nagged so much about my lyrics either, because im not the only one who said 'bitch' or 'faggot', but people dont like to hear it from a white boy, who looks like them, and could be their son or friendly neighbour. they dont mind it from black people, who stand further away from them..because the black rappers all said it before, and no one complained about that like they do to Eminem..

In that pic posted up there ... who's with Eminem?
thats his best friend proof, he knows him from his youth. now that eminem got famous, he tries to put his rapgroup d12 (with proof and eminem and 4 other members) to the foreground and get them famous too. all the members of that group are his friends from his youth who always stood by him and for the people on here still thinking eminem is a racist, all these guys are black...

You'll notice his "defense" in his song is "I'm not the first" and not "I don't do that".
this is not what hes saying, hes not hiding behind the fact that hes not he first to say it, just read what i said about the song in the beginning of this post...he just offers a theory in that song about why people go on and on about him and not other rappers who say the same things..

The clear majority of Eminem fans I've known face-to-face do not impress me as intelligent enough to understand an artistic statement.
i would watch out with stereotyping his fans if i were you, sorry to hear that you dont hang out with intelligent people, but i consider myself intelligent, and i dont like to beat up females or gays in my spare time and no i dont carry any guns or go around saying fuck the world all day:p ;) , in fact i am a female myself, and i dont feel offended at all by his lyrics..

static76..i totally agree with you, good to see someone here gets it :)

last thing i want to say: ITS JUST MUSIC PEOPLE!! and i never heard anyone here say that the writer of the movie seven must be a complete wacko in his head for writing such ill scripts?? in the end whats the difference between a violent movie and a song?? doesnt it just show whats going on in the world, and doesnt it show us that it doesnt necessarily has to be the opinion of the writer itself?? does anyone here really think christina aguilera is a genie in a bottle because she sings this?? i dont think so..eminem just shows us whats going on in the world in his own way, he gives a twist on it and hes very funny often too...hes a great entertainer!! at least to me he is..

hmm not totally ready yet, i forgot these quotes:
If Eminem thinks an abusive mate is suitable for his daughter, I question the value of everything in his world.
uhmm how did you get this idea?? Eminem only wants the best for his daughter...this is what moby said about eminem, not what eminem is about, so dont turn it around like it is the truth about eminem, because it is obviously not..


Well, unlike Eminem, he can make his own albums, he can play his own instruments, and he knows what music is, as opposed to machismo hype. I'm not the biggest Moby fan by any means; I don't even own a Moby album. But he's definitively the better musician of the two.
eminem makes his own albums, so again i dont know how you got this idea?? he produces most of his songs himself, and he writes his own lyrics unlike some other artists (britney spears for instance) he's executive producer and producer of many songs on devils night, the album of d12...so he's not one of those 'pop'artists that been made big while all they have to do is sing and everything else has been done for him..he makes his own music..

Why is Moby allowed to bash Eminem, yet Eminem is wrong to counter.....Stop. Don't be so silly. Think about it. I gave you a bulleted list, eh?

• Eminem criticizes in his music
• Why should he not be criticized?
• Yet he threatens people who criticize him?

Oooh! Why is poor Eminem wrong to ... what? Why is Eminem wrong to threaten somebody with violence?

Do you really need that explained to you?While I don't agree with people saying the word "faggot", do you realize that's a slam guys use to put down other guys as wimpy, and it usually doesn't even have anything to do with gay people.Do you really need that explained to you?All I can say is if you don't understand that Eminem's songs and lyrics are a parody of society, and a commentary of what we see in America today, then you missed the whole point....Two points:

• If you had read the links I included, you would have come across a very ironic point, that the same people who are publicly defending Eminem's music and saying it's so damn obvious what he's saying are also accusing huge numbers of people of not understanding. So in other words, it's obvious what he's saying if you're one of his fans and like listening to that. And the number of people who don't like him? Well, apparently they're all missing the point of what has been expressed with such genius that nobody can miss the point ... I found it ironic.

• I don't see that sense of parody in Eminem's fans. I see Eminem's fans imitating him literally. One of the primary reasons I reject "all you can say" is that if I don't see Eminem's lyrics as parodies of society, it's only because I generally favor what I see as the conventional interpretation. People keep telling me Eminem's songs are parodies and I've left that alone for a long time. But even in the people I know who listen to him a lot, the sense of parody isn't there. Like my Metallica example: "Disposable Heroes" is supposed to be an anti-war song. The majority of people I've ever discussed that issue with agree with me. Yet I saw it used as a war cry once. Well, I see the same kind of distortion of the commentary taking place on a larger scale. Sorry, but I just don't see Marshall's fans taking it as a parody and commentary. Either that or they're celebrating the characters and not the moral lessons or whatever the hell it is we're supposed to be getting from this high-cultured art.Moby was booing him and if I'm correct he said,"Keep booing little girl, I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses".Actually, quite a few people were booing him. Threatening Moby was just a cheap way to cover his own underestimation of the crowd.Moby was booing him and if I'm correct he said,"Keep booing little girl, I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses".Like I said before: Eminem is scared of real musicians. If he wasn't he would have responded in the studio. Yet we see the response is a feeble parody and a pretend murder, followed by threats issued at an awards ceremony and having to be restrained while directly harassing a person.

If Eminem was a real musician, a real artist, he would simply do his work in the studio and let that stand for him. But since he's outclassed in the studio by Moby, it seems threatening was all he could figure out.

Oh, well. He was probably just doing a "parody" of George W Bush, right?

Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's the ticket ....

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Please... first, you criticize Eminem and now you stereotype his entire fanbase? Well, yes.

You do realize Eminem reaps the benefits of payola? You do realize the record companies are paying radio stations to make him and a lot of other artists popular? Moby might even benefit from the payola. But yes: people were told to like Eminem for his fresh new voice and they did.Are you trying to make people angry? I just call it like I see it.

I mean, check it out: there's Eminem fans in here defending his threats of violence.

Shall we put the question to them directly: Do you advocate violence against Moby?

No? Then why advocate the threatening?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

you obviously didnt get the song white america, this is basicly what he says in the song: if i would have been black i wouldnt have sold this much, and people wouldnt have nagged so much about my lyrics eitherMarshall obviously missed the record sales of N.W.A., Luke Skywalker & 2 Live Crew, or the Body Count side project.

And since your next statement is wrong, I will take a moment to discuss a conversation I actually had last night in the middle of my considerations of Eminem:

• A musician friend of mine happened to stop by, one who is currently recording and producing. He wants me to have respect for the lyrics the same way other people in this topic do. He doesn't think much of the lyrics, but we did talk about them, and I pointed out a couple of things that he didn't have much to say about, so I'll run them by you:you obviously didnt get the song white america, this is basicly what he says in the song: if i would have been black i wouldnt have sold this much, and people wouldnt have nagged so much about my lyrics eitherAs a side note, my "friendly neighbors" have better ways of approaching what bugs them in the world than threatening people.

However, you have inaccurately represented the lyrics. He did not say he's not the only one who said bitch or faggot. He said he was not the first one to hit (strike, assault) a bitch or say "faggot".because the black rappers all said it before, and no one complained about that like they do to EminemAgain, Marshall must have missed a few acts that came in front of him. Public Enemy, N.W.A., 2 Live Crew ....

Secondly, I pointed out to my friend the line about Margot Kidder, which note I have already mentioned. Simply finding a word that rhymes does not make lyrical genius. Such a sentiment as Eminem writes great lyrics still reminds me of Vanilla Ice and his "Rap is the hardest music to write because the words have to rhyme" bit. If he needed to be hiding in a bush, there are a bunch of better examples to use than someone having a nervous breakdown that may or may not be drug-related. But it rhymed, so the context doesn't matter. Think of it: Illiterate, illegitimate shit spitter, bitch getter, hid in the bushes while having a drug-induced nervous breakdown ....

Commentary and parody need to have fairly accurate frames of reference. I don't protest the line, but I do laugh at its stupidity. I mean, it's a nice rhyme, but what am I supposed to think of the fans in that case? Do they know who Margot Kidder is? Aside from the rhyme, what is the merit of the line? It's not offensive, it's just dumb. It's shallow and useless as a parody. It's just fine as a rhyme.all the members of that group are his friends from his youth who always stood by him and for the people on here still thinking eminem is a racist, all these guys are black...Food for thought. I wonder if they, too, have forgotten about Public Enemy, NWA, &c.?he just offers a theory in that song about why people go on and on about him and not other rappers who say the same things..I sincerely protest the idea that other rappers don't catch shit. Perhaps you missed Bob Dole, in 1995, saving Clinton's ass; after Clinton rained his fury on Sistah Souljah, Dole saved his ass by saying, "Well, if I was President, I would make that kind of music illegal."

Sistah Souljah, N.W.A., Public Enemy, 2 Live Crew.i would watch out with stereotyping his fans if i were you, sorry to hear that you dont hang out with intelligent people, but i consider myself intelligent, and i dont like to beat up females or gays in my spare time and no i dont carry any guns or go around saying fuck the world all dayTwo points:

• The intelligent people I know simply don't bother with Eminem. I probably would have stayed out of this topic, but ....

• ... but I saw people defending his threats of violence, so I stuck my nose in it. In the meantime, what am I supposed to think of your intelligence when you advocate threats of violence?

Do you advocate violence against Moby?

Then why advocate the threat?last thing i want to say: ITS JUST MUSIC PEOPLE!! As long as it was just music, I was happy to leave it be. But it's not. Eminem chose to make it about something other than the music, and now his "intelligent" fans are advocating threats of violence.i never heard anyone here say that the writer of the movie seven must be a complete wacko in his head for writing such ill scripts??Such a comparison suggests a lack of depth on your part. The writer of the movie Seven wrote a twisted story, but you'll notice it wasn't a first-person story the way Eminem's parodies often are. You'll notice that the writer of the movie did not defend the work by saying, "I'm not the first to do the things I'm writing about."in the end whats the difference between a violent movie and a song??Generally, very little. Specifically, check the prior portion of this post.doesnt it just show whats going on in the world, and doesnt it show us that it doesnt necessarily has to be the opinion of the writer itself??First part, yes.

Second part, no it doesn't have to be the opinion of the writer. But are Eminem's lyrics honest? No? Then why are they so good? Like I pointed out before, with the Margot Kidder line, his "commentaries" are a contextual mess, his parodies without any focus in reality. Are Eminem's lyrics honest? Yes? Well?

Furthermore, the writer of Seven did not respond to criticisms of the film script by threatening people.

There's a huge difference there, as well.does anyone here really think christina aguilera is a genie in a bottle because she sings this?? There is a difference between singing about the impossible and "commenting on reality".

What am I supposed to think when here sits an Eminem fan demonstrating my point? I shall explain: Eminem's lyrical defenders say that critics have it wrong, tell us in essence that we are viewing the lyrics in the wrong context.

Yet you provide contextually disparate examples in his defense. There's nothing wrong with this if you tie it in appropriately, but the tie-ins seem to lead back to the same point: Threats of violence, and the "honesty" of Eminem's lyrics against the idea that the lyrics aren't honest.eminem just shows us whats going on in the world in his own way, he gives a twist on it and hes very funny often too...Tell me what's funny about the Margot Kidder line.

Seriously; that's one of the first lines I noticed. Not gender or race issues, but contextual inaccuracy unless the point of the lyric was having a nervous breakdown, and I just don't think that's the case.hes a great entertainer!! at least to me he isFair enough, as demonstrated by record and ticket sales.

So, is the "fact" that he is a great entertainer an excuse to threaten violence?Eminem only wants the best for his daughter...this is what moby said about eminem, not what eminem is about, so dont turn it around like it is the truth about eminem, because it is obviously not..Well? Marshall does seem to be quite approving of that kind of behavior. Tell you what: explain the Margot Kidder line, since that's sort of an anti-woman sounding bit. Show me how that line works out in relation to the rest of its verse and I will accept that Eminem does not approve (as per Moby) of abusive men through his music.eminem makes his own albums, so again i dont know how you got this idea?? he produces most of his songs himself, and he writes his own lyrics unlike some other artistsIt seems to me that Eminem fills his albums with other people's sounds. Moby is known for doing this, too, but Moby is also a demonstrated musician. Anyone, these days, can produce an album of rapping and samples.

Furthermore, as I look in, I have to disagree with Eminem making his own albums. But as I look through the album credits (http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?ean=606949329020) for The Eminem Show. Eminem is credited as "primary artist", which could be termed "designer". Denaun Porter is credited as the "producer", and also programs his rhythms for him. A guy named Steven King is his engineer and mixer. A guy named Brian Gardner mastered the album. Mark Bass has Executive Production credits. And Larry Chatman is the project coordinator, alongside Kirdis Tucker, and they work with Les Scurry, who is the Production Coordinator.

Please note, though, that I have not held the musicians against Eminem. Even talented musicians need other musicians.

Understand, for comparison: When Nirvana recorded Bleach, an album which no band has yet matched, sure they did it in a day. They had the songs rehearsed from countless repetition. But when they did it there were four people in the studio who mattered: the band and a guy named Jack Endino, who was necessary because someone had to turn the knobs. Moby has a producer and an engineer, and beyond that very little aside from the musicians.

It's just that after Brian Wilson's studio work, Kevin Shields' studio work, and watching a friend engineer and produce his own album, I really must take issue with the idea that "Eminem makes his own albums".so he's not one of those 'pop'artists that been made big while all they have to do is sing and everything else has been done for him..he makes his own music.Have you seen his production credits?

Gotta run.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

First tiassa, I'm not even really a fan of Eminem (which I said earlier), I like a few of his songs, but my problem is the free pass Moby gets, and the slams against his fans.

Stop. Don't be so silly. Think about it. I gave you a bulleted list, eh?

• Eminem criticizes in his music
• Why should he not be criticized?
• Yet he threatens people who criticize him?

Oooh! Why is poor Eminem wrong to ... what? Why is Eminem wrong to threaten somebody with violence?

Do you really need that explained to you?

There is a BIG difference between criticizing and lieing...

If I came onto these boards one day and said,"tiassa is a racist, an anti-semite, and hates atheists.", would that be okay???? I suspect you would be a little angry, and rightfully so....

As for threatening Moby, it's called testosterone my friend. We have been doing it since grade school, and will continue until we're buried in the ground.

Once again, is threatening to hit Moby really that bad???? People say worse things to others everyday in society(and this board for that matter), since when have we become a country of wimps?

I always here people ask "What happend to Rock", and I guess we now know... Would Ozzy Osbourne, Axel Rose, John Lennon, sit and take crap from an overrated DJ like Moby? It's no wonder how all the male Pop and Rock stars are starting to sound like women, we're not allowed to be men anymore.

I guess in your mind tiassa, we need more guys like N'Sync, Backstreet, or O-Town...

Also, how is saying "I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses", a horrible threat. Aren't you overreacting just a bit?


Do you really need that explained to you?

I don't see why you would, I said i disagree with it.



• If you had read the links I included, you would have come across a very ironic point, that the same people who are publicly defending Eminem's music and saying it's so damn obvious what he's saying are also accusing huge numbers of people of not understanding. So in other words, it's obvious what he's saying if you're one of his fans and like listening to that. And the number of people who don't like him? Well, apparently they're all missing the point of what has been expressed with such genius that nobody can miss the point ... I found it ironic.

I not sure I understand your point here. :confused:

• I don't see that sense of parody in Eminem's fans. I see Eminem's fans imitating him literally. One of the primary reasons I reject "all you can say" is that if I don't see Eminem's lyrics as parodies of society, it's only because I generally favor what I see as the conventional interpretation. People keep telling me Eminem's songs are parodies and I've left that alone for a long time. But even in the people I know who listen to him a lot, the sense of parody isn't there. Like my Metallica example: "Disposable Heroes" is supposed to be an anti-war song. The majority of people I've ever discussed that issue with agree with me. Yet I saw it used as a war cry once. Well, I see the same kind of distortion of the commentary taking place on a larger scale. Sorry, but I just don't see Marshall's fans taking it as a parody and commentary. Either that or they're celebrating the characters and not the moral lessons or whatever the hell it is we're supposed to be getting from this high-cultured art.

You need to get out more then...

I see 40 year old White guys, 50 year old women, listening and appreciating Eminem's songs. I see college students, business men, engineers, and housewives listening to his music.

The reason Eminem's album is sitting atop the charts for weeks is that all types of people like his music. We understand that his music is parody.

Like I said before: Eminem is scared of real musicians. If he wasn't he would have responded in the studio. Yet we see the response is a feeble parody and a pretend murder, followed by threats issued at an awards ceremony and having to be restrained while directly harassing a person.

If Eminem was a real musician, a real artist, he would simply do his work in the studio and let that stand for him. But since he's outclassed in the studio by Moby, it seems threatening was all he could figure out.

Oh, well. He was probably just doing a "parody" of George W Bush, right?

Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's the ticket ....


Why do you think he's scared of "real musicians"???He DID respond in the studio, and mentioned Moby in one of his songs. Perhaps you need to listen to the music before you slam it.

BTW- What work has Moby done, that outclasses him over Eminem????

If Eminem was a real musician, a real artist, he would simply do his work in the studio and let that stand for him. But since he's outclassed in the studio by Moby, it seems threatening was all he could figure out.
like static76 said...he did respond in the studio...
• The intelligent people I know simply don't bother with Eminem. I probably would have stayed out of this topic, but .... • ... but I saw people defending his threats of violence, so I stuck my nose in it. In the meantime, what am I supposed to think of your intelligence when you advocate threats of violence?Do you advocate violence against Moby?Then why advocate the threat?
please dont start that Eminem fans cant be intelligent, im in my final year of law study so dont tell me about being intelligent or not...you really go to far by saying those things...i dont advocate vioence againt moby, i actually never said anything on this whole thread about Eminems speech on the vma's. i dont advocate any violence at all...the only thing i mentioned was how the whole thing started off. i dont think it was the smartest move of Eminem to make to say that, but i dont blow it out of proportion either...he just said what came in his mind, and when he came back on stage to collect the 3th award he apologised in his way by saying:'you all have to excuse me, im going through some anger management classes.'
As long as it was just music, I was happy to leave it be. But it's not. Eminem chose to make it about something other than the music, and now his "intelligent" fans are advocating threats of violence.
again, i dont advocate threats of violence, i just like Eminems music a lot, and thats all, and i think everyone just reads to much into it...and im not personally responsable for what Eminem does or not does just because im a fan..and i dont think i have to defend myself because i like his music either..backing eminem up for liking his music and still being a fan of him after the vma's and his not so very smart remark, isnt the same as advocating threads of violence. further all i think he's only a human being like we all are, he makes mistakes like we all do, and he never pretends to be different than that. unlikely moby who's playing the innocent guy, while hes talking shit behind Eminems back..eminem isnt the perfect little angel, but you will never hear him say that he is or see him pretend that he is..
Such a comparison suggests a lack of depth on your part. The writer of the movie Seven wrote a twisted story, but you'll notice it wasn't a first-person story the way Eminem's parodies often are. You'll notice that the writer of the movie did not defend the work by saying, "I'm not the first to do the things I'm writing about."
again, you trying to insult me by saying i have lack of depth. if you would have thought about what you said you would notice there is some lack of depth on your side..what about a book in a first person but with violence in it or hate?? does that cross the line?? and the writer of seven didnt have to offend himself at all, because people didnt nag about it like they do with eminem..
Second part, no it doesn't have to be the opinion of the writer. But are Eminem's lyrics honest? No? Then why are they so good? Like I pointed out before, with the Margot Kidder line, his "commentaries" are a contextual mess, his parodies without any focus in reality. Are Eminem's lyrics honest? Yes? Well?
what you are practically saying is that movies/books/music which arent exactly the artists thoughts or opinions or honest, cant be good. of course it can be, fiction is a big genre, not everything has to be autobiographic to be considered good. his lyrics are in parts honest, and in parts its just a big joke and parody or just mocking with the world...for the rest his raps are sort of like a rollercoaster..this is a part of taste, you like it or not, you cant attack him on that..like he says on the real slim shady: 'I'm like a head trip to listen to..'
There is a difference between singing about the impossible and "commenting on reality".
i just took an example with christina aguilera's song, but i can say other things which arent impossible, like britney singing shes not yet a woman, though not a girl, or mariah carey singing she cant live without you, you dont take them so seriously as you do to every word eminem raps about..
Furthermore, as I look in, I have to disagree with Eminem making his own albums. But as I look through the album credits for The Eminem Show. Eminem is credited as "primary artist", which could be termed "designer". Denaun Porter is credited as the "producer", and also programs his rhythms for him. A guy named Steven King is his engineer and mixer. A guy named Brian Gardner mastered the album. Mark Bass has Executive Production credits. And Larry Chatman is the project coordinator, alongside Kirdis Tucker, and they work with Les Scurry, who is the Production Coordinator.
that link is falls, mark bass isnt executive producer, that is dr. dre, denaun porter (member of d12 by the way, one of his closest friends) co produced one song with eminem, 3 out of 15 are produced by dr. dre, all the rest is produced by Eminem itself, you could better use the album booklet to back up your album credits, because those arent completely right, but oh yeah you wouldnt have that booklet because you never listen or buy his albums:rolleyes: .

eminems lyrics have lots of sides in it, sometimes he's 'slim shady', other times he's just plain 'marshall', he got lots of sides in his music, so thats why you cant say his music is honest, or not honest, or realistic or not, because parts are and parts arent, and some parts are meant to be humour, other parts are dead serious, he mocks the whole world even himself often, for example: 'My mother did drugs - tar, liquor, cigarettes, and speed
The baby came out - disfigured, ligaments indeed
It was a seed who would grow up just as crazy as she
Don't dare make fun of that baby cause that baby was me (from the song criminal)'
...it just all comes down to taste if you like him or not..

and now im reallyyy tired, so im going to sleep:D

like static76 said...he did respond in the studio...How so? Did I miss the lyric?

I hope you're not thinking of the video, in which he responded by being an actor. And I hope you're not thinking of the fake-assassination, again in which he responded by being an actor.

If he is to respond in the studio, he should do so as a musician.

But if I missed the lyric, I would ask you to provide it. After all, the lyric is as close as I'm going to get to music in this case.please dont start that Eminem fans cant be intelligent, im in my final year of law study so dont tell me about being intelligent or not...Please don't tell you about my observations of the world? Tell me I'm wrong, if you want, but don't run away from it. I really go far? How so? By telling it like I see it? What's the matter, am I not allowed to be "honest" like Eminem?

Guess what ... I don't have to stick my nose out to be chopped off in what I say about Eminem fans. I'm perfectly willing to believe the few people who say Eminem has intelligent fans. However, I don't see intelligence in the majority of their public representation, and in my own immediate experience I can say that I have a very low opinion of the intelligence of the people I know who do like Eminem. My own opinion is based on observation of and interaction with these people who happen to like Eminem.

Further, I see no intelligence whatsoever in defending threats of violence.i dont advocate any violence at all...the only thing i mentioned was how the whole thing started off.You mean,first of all moby started this whole thingThat wonderful justification for threatening violence?

Here's a take that might ring better with you: despite my sentiments about Eminem's lyrics and the quality of his fans, I personally didn't give a rat's ass about him. He seemed no more or less illiterate and selfish than many others who have Top 40 singles. But when he extended his attitude to threatening someone on television, it struck a chord, so to speak. You'll notice Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins never publicly threatened each other that way. I see a connection between the mentality of his artistic expression and his personal expression. I mention Peter Gabriel for another reason, too, but more on that in a moment.he apologised in his way by saying:'you all have to excuse me, im going through some anger management classes.'Sounds like shameless self-promotion to me, since the tour he's on is called The Anger Management Tour (http://www.hob.com/tickets/tours/2002angermanagement/).again, i dont advocate threats of violenceRegardless of how much you say that, I keep seeing you defending his actions: ...unlikely moby who's playing the innocent guy, while hes talking shit behind Eminems back.

So what? Eminem could have won that public spat if he'd just done it in the studio. Again, point me to the lyric, but beyond that, he chose to bring it out of the studio and keep the fire burning. further all i think he's only a human being like we all are, he makes mistakes like we all do, and he never pretends to be different than thatAre you sure about that? After all, I did point out that misrepresentation of his critics in his song. Sounds like he's pretending to me.again, you trying to insult me by saying i have lack of depth.So inaccurate. I am not trying to insult you. Rather, as I noted, the comparison you've offered suggests a lack of depth. Seven, as an artistic work, is part of an entirely different context from The Eminem Show.if you would have thought about what you said you would notice there is some lack of depth on your side..what about a book in a first person but with violence in it or hate??That's why it's called fiction. Furthermore, I would hope you won't pretend that writers have it easy. Just look at Huckleberry Finn. And the author even warned people not to read the book the way they do.does that cross the line??Depends on the depiction. I actually have a very liberal standard for free speech. Of course, that also includes people giving their perceptions of the art works that benefit from that standard. For instance, Moby. The thing is that if that is how he feels, then that is how he feels. Eminem could try responding to the charges with an educated, rational response, but such a tactic is either beyond him or not profitable enough.

Anger management classes ... that was a good one.

About the only thing I won't say about Eminem is that he shouldn't be allowed to do it. On the contrary, I think he has every right to make an ass out of himself. And his fans have the right to cheer him on while he does. And I have the right to laugh at the lot of them while they do. It's beautiful how it all works out that way.and the writer of seven didnt have to offend himself at all, because people didnt nag about it like they do with eminemQuite frankly, I'm not sure how to read that. Just tell me the line is or isn't correct as written and I'll try again. But it's easier and saves space to simply say, What?what you are practically saying is that movies/books/music which arent exactly the artists thoughts or opinions or honest, cant be good. of course it can be, fiction is a big genre, not everything has to be autobiographic to be considered goodThat's a larger theory for another day. Specifically, what I was referring to is Eminem's lyrical skill. When I say the lyrics aren't honest, I mean that they don't reflect everything that goes with them. "Margot Kidder" is part of that line because it's close to "bitch getter". So the bitch-getter hid in the bushes like ... and yes, I agree that "Margot Kidder" is a creative joke. But when Margot Kidder was hiding in the bushes ....

I admit that I am also considering a conversation that took place on my end with a friend which you are not privy to, but it followed the same lines. I was trying to get him to explain to me the lyrical "genius" (if you will) of Eminem. He was talking about allegory and representation and all of these ideas I'm very familiar with. But here's a joke for you: Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Jimmy Carter was a Democrat. Sure, it's absurd. And in that sense some people find it funny. But what does one have to do with the other? I'm not even complaining about the term "bitch-getter". I'm pointing out the simplicity of using "Margot Kidder" because it rhymes.

It's not an honest lyric because it depends on a suspension of the facts of Margot Kidder in the context of hiding in the bushes. It's a fine lyric, I suppose, a nifty rhyme. I admit I'm impressed that he pulled it out in the first place, but there are a hundred "bushes" stories between then and now, so why not choose one equally famous that has more relevant significance? Like I noted earlier of the lyric: hiding in the bushes like I'm having a nervous breakdown is most likely not what Eminem was implying.

So what I'm after is that either way I have questions. If his lyrics are honest, I see a couple of problems. Obviously, with the I'm not first bit, but also with the simplistic representation of the Margot Kidder issue. If his lyrics are honest, then such poorly-assembled images are an honest representation of how he sees the world, which is kind of scary to think about if you're one of his fans. If his lyrics aren't honest ... well, so much for the fans.i just took an example with christina aguilera's song, but i can say other things which arent impossible, like britney singing shes not yet a woman, though not a girl, or mariah carey singing she cant live without you, you dont take them so seriously as you do to every word eminem raps about..I still think you're contextually askew. For the record, though, I'm not big on love songs, or "can't-live-without-you". The only plus side is if the performer can actually sing.

But what about those things should I take issue with? Perhaps you could propose a couple of options?that link is fallsIf I'm reading you right, you ought to email Eminem's organization and let them know that they are being falsely represented. It is a legal issue, you know. Unlike Moby, the B&N website is breaking the law. Maybe Eminem will go on down to Barnes & Noble and smack that bitch around some.that link is fallsI always love that idea ... I'm supposed to buy his album. Like the Christian who told me that I shouldn't comment on someone's book unless I've bought it. I always wonder about the people who suggest that I ought to buy something that I have no desire to (Eminem) or that I object to (author of question in the Christian argument).

But if you would just support what you don't want to support, everything would be better ....so thats why you cant say his music is honest, or not honest, or realistic or not, because parts are and parts arent, and some parts are meant to be humour, other parts are dead serious, he mocks the whole world even himself oftenBut is he honest about it?

I mean, he can do it honestly, or as a poseur. Even when he's deliberately being a poseur, is he doing it honestly? Or is he a poseur pretending to be a poseur for credibility's sake? That's a harsh example, but as he moves through the phases, is he doing it honestly?

He's just put himself in a precarious position where answering "yes" or "no" will be each their own Pandora's box.

It's why you don't stoop to the level he did. I say that sympathetically, because it's a hard thing to figure out.

If he wants to make a sincere apology for threatening violence, that would incite a huge reversal of many of my considerations. If, however, he chooses to stand on his position and leave it as part of "the act", well ... whether he does it honestly or not doesn't matter much because either speaks ill of his value.

Literally: that's exactly why one should not do what he did.

And, yes ... it's what bugs me about people supporting his behavior.

Beyond that, Eminem is somebody I don't give a rat's ass about. I don't want him on the soundtrack to a movie I'm seeing, but he must first get better before he gets the dubious honor being someone I won't change the station to avoid. Mind you, it's not the most dubious, either. I mean, I change the station to avoid bad music, not to avoid being offended. But he must first get better before he will be granted an accepting audience in my environment. Oh, well. Britney, Christina, Jessica, Backstreet, N'Sync, Puddle of Mudd, Mudvayne, System of a Down, Kid Rock, Destiny's Child, Papa Roach--he's got good company, I guess ... One thing I will say for Eminem, though: most of the time I don't know who I'm turning off. I'm usually aware of it when it's Eminem. I'll give him credit for that.

And as to your example: You know, Hitler had his moments. Now, before that bugs you too much, let me explain: I'm not drawing a direct comparison to Hitler any more than I would to anyone else I could use in that case. The point I am making is that certain things are common among humans. You should hear me talk about my biological progenitor; it's not kind because I usually only do it if someone brings her up while I'm drinking heavily. Sober, I'm smart enough to duck the topic. But we all have much in common. How often do we as humans recognize each other for those things? It is mostly by what we do to set ourselves apart from one another that we are viewed and judged.

That Marshall has moments of genuine introspection I would never doubt. Nor would I doubt that of you, or of Jesus Christ or of Hitler or of anybody in between. I am, incidentally, glad that he includes them on his albums. But I would hope he's doing it honestly.

You know, I had mentioned Peter Gabriel earlier, but I think that second point I was thinking about might go elsewhere ...

Maybe it went with the production notes.

But it's interesting: listen to a few artists who cut together samples--Moby, Gorillaz, Eminem, Peter Gabriel ....

Where I draw the distinction against Eminem as a musician is well-marked in that list.

Moby is a musician. I'm not big on his style, but everything I hear from him is musical. Eminem engineers sound. There is something to the art of pasting together a bunch of deliberately-created sounds into something that passes for music, but in that sense I point to Peter Gabriel (http://www.petergabriel.com), whose album is finally (after nine years) ready to go. The thing is, we hear five years ago that he was finished collecting sound, and was planning a sound-mosaic album. Well, it's now five years after that and we finally get to hear some of it. And it's subtle. Peter Gabriel is someone who works with both music and sound. Eminem seems much more oriented toward working with sound. The musical part of Eminem's performance seems almost incidental. Gorillaz? Again, there is a combination of music and sound. Damon Albarn is no Peter Gabriel, but we might also think of Del tha Funkee Homosapien, who manages a great deal of musicality even in his own strangely two-dimensional Deltron 3030. At this point, were we in a tavern discussing this over beers, I would simply look at you and say, "Gorillaz ... there's a stylophone solo on the album. Come on. Can Eminem even give me that?"

Given what other people are doing with sound, and what other people are doing with music I stand by two statements specifically: (A) Five short steps to make your own Eminem album, (B) Eminem is scared of real musicians.

I'm out on Limewire and I've just downloaded the first Moby song and first Eminem song I could find; I've heard about equal amounts of each before. I ended up with "Natural Blues" by Moby and "Without Me" by Eminem. Now, please, somebody tell me which Eminem song they would like to promote as a statement of his abilities because I'm seriously hoping this second-rate effort isn't the whole of it.

I mean, I hope that's his sense of humor.

Many people have a word that adequately describes Eminem's "Without Me". It's not a word I use in this context, though, since it carries repercussions for people who have nothing to do with the situation. But today I will use that word because it is the only one that comes to mind. Dude: that song is fucking gay.

I mean, really. I actually resent that use of the word gay. But it sounds ferociously homosexual, diva-arrogant ... it really reminds me of a trannie pageant. The backtrack went beyond "not bad", too, and while it wouldn't have stood as a song by itself, I think the whole atmosphere was dragged down by a pompous, queenie primadonna yelling all over the place.

I'll give Eminem that much: I didn't think he was that bad. Holy shite.

Mind you, I don't like using gay as a dig, but I don't think the word can be applied in any complimentary sense. I mean, even if I was legitimately impressed by the quality of the primadonna bit, I don't think Marshall would appreciate it.

At any rate, I wasn't expecting that.

On that note, I need a cigarette and a few minutes to recover. I feel much better now that it is flushed from my computer.

I am prepared to say that Eminem is a musician insofar as Ed Wood was a director. And that's just a little unkind to Mr Wood.

I do understand, however, how some people could come to like that. It's not entirely a mystery.

But he should have stayed a sideshow, and not tried to make himself the main event.

Anyone can suggest another song. I'll give it another whirl.

Oh, yeah. Moby. Of "Natural Blues": Sure, it's okay. But it's musical and exploratory. With its music. It's lyrics seem almost incidental, there to give the reason to work a distorted vocal into the soundscape. It's hardly pioneering, but it's musical and it's annoyingly catchy.

Cigarette ... cigarette ...

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

There is a BIG difference between criticizing and lieing...Moby says he heard it, Moby gets to say he's heard it. Moby wants to say what he thinks about it, Moby gets to say what he thinks about it. Such as you continue ... If I came onto these boards one day and said,"tiassa is a racist, an anti-semite, and hates atheists.", would that be okay???? I suspect you would be a little angry, and rightfully so...Well, I would worry about it when you put up your reasons for thinking so. If it seemed that you had a legitimate reason, I would answer the charges. If it seemed that you did not, I would simply ask you to provide one. Even if you simply said, as with Moby of Eminem, "I just remember you writing something anti-semitic one day," at least that would give me the option of saying, "Okay, whatever. Let me know when you've got something." And what I would not do is threaten you publicly with violence on a later occasion because of it.As for threatening Moby, it's called testosterone my friend. We have been doing it since grade school, and will continue until we're buried in the ground.That ... uh ... makes it right, doesn't it?

Never mind.Once again, is threatening to hit Moby really that bad????Using a public forum to threaten any violence against an individual for such petty reasons is really that bad. I reserve the right for a President to be an idiot and threaten whomever they want when the time calls for it, but yes, threatening to hit Moby was that bad.People say worse things to others everyday in society(and this board for that matter), since when have we become a country of wimps?[quote]Those things are no more right than Eminem. Though without the privilege of abusing a public forum, many of those threats are a little less wrong.

As to a nation of wimps: what the hell is your problem? What, does it disturb you that people don't walk around threatening each other enough?[quote]I always here people ask "What happend to Rock", and I guess we now know... Would Ozzy Osbourne, Axel Rose, John Lennon, sit and take crap from an overrated DJ like Moby? It's no wonder how all the male Pop and Rock stars are starting to sound like women, we're not allowed to be men anymore.Rock and Roll has nothing to do with Eminem, whose fans have already noted his rapping talent.

Furthermore, I don't recall Ozzy Osbourne or John Lennon openly threatening their critics. Axl Rose? Well? Why do you think he has to stage a "comeback"? Where has he been? Maybe he's been threatening a few people. And geez, even Axl's challenging of Bob Guccione (and a few other people in that song) was more tasteful and appropriate.I guess in your mind tiassa, we need more guys like N'Sync, Backstreet, or O-Town...Mmm. Yes. Me. Who has mentioned payola and criticized poor production values. Are you intentionally missing that?

But since you ask, I think of bands like The Rheostatics, The La's (defunct), Floater, Pearl Jam, Nirvana (defunct), Primal Scream, Wondermints, Steve Earle, Radiohead, Supergrass, Flash Girls, Massive Attack, Monster Magnet, Tanita Tikaram, Portishead, Boiled in Lead, Rufus Wainwright, the one-and-only Brian Wilson, Elvis Costello, Joanne Rand, Nick Drake (RIP), Peter Murphy, My Bloody Valentine (defunct; see also--Primal Scream), Bryan Ferry, David Bowie, Afro-Celt Sound System, Clumsy Lovers, Lick the Tins (defunct), Tool, Soundgarden (defunct), Mudhoney, Queens of the Stone Age (see also--Kyuss, defunct), Liz Phair, PJ Harvey, Screaming Trees (defunct), Mother Love Bone (defunct; RIP; see also--Pearl Jam), Robert Poss (Helmet, Band of Susans), Peter Gabriel, &c.

I'm not much for rap, so I can't give much beyond the couple I listen to. And there was a thread about what happened to R&B--we could always use a soul resurgence. Worldbeat? Well, I know Shankar and the Epidemics rock. I've heard Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan's son (I can't remember his name ...) perform; I wouldn't mind hearing that on the radio. Blues? Lavelle White, Pinetop Perkins, the list could go on for a while, but I'm not an expert on blues. Folk? Greg Brown comes to mind, but so do the aforementioned Boiled in Lead and Flash Girls. There is a lot of good folk out there, but I usually hear it on local public radio and frankly, I forget who I listen to.Also, how is saying "I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses", a horrible threat. Aren't you overreacting just a bit?It's a threat of violence. It's inappropriate and pointless. Furthermore, it does seem symptomatic of the Eminem mentality. What's the bottom end of inappropriate threats, then, permanent injury?I don't see why you would, I said i disagree with it.If I knew exactly what you were saying here, I might have a response. As such, though ... But it seemed an important point, a stand-alone. So I didn't want to ignore it.I not sure I understand your point here.There are people here defending his lyrics and talking about his artistic statement. I just thought that point was relevant.You need to get out more then...Yes, I'm sure I do. I know, I'll drop some E, go down to the nearest club, shake my booty to some Eminem, and suddenly I'll love his music.I see 40 year old White guys, 50 year old women, listening and appreciating Eminem's songs. I see college students, business men, engineers, and housewives listening to his music.My mother used to like Poison. I made the mistake of telling her the lyrics of what she was listening to.

Besides, nobody's going to say that Eminem doesn't have value as a dirty joke. I believe one of the links I posted includes that very sentiment.The reason Eminem's album is sitting atop the charts for weeks is that all types of people like his music. We understand that his music is parody.I'll accept that. I'm also willing to bet you cash, right now, that when the latest payola scandal gets ripped open, Eminem will be among those who reaped the benefits of restricting consumer choice. The reason people hear Eminem's music on the radio in order to like it in the first place is that the airtime is bought. Other bands around the country don't have that resource available to them.

Don't get me wrong: Some of my favorites have probably benefitted from payola. I would be foolish not to think so. But when Eminem was unknown to the consumers in general, he received specific financial support from his label in the form of payola money to the radio stations. It's why you only ever hear a certain range of new songs on the radio. The Top 40 stations in Seattle are all bought. The "alternative" station is, too.Why do you think he's scared of "real musicians"???He DID respond in the studio, and mentioned Moby in one of his songs. Perhaps you need to listen to the music before you slam it.If a witty lyric is the whole of his "studio" response, I hold my point valid.

A proper studio response would be a full unleashing of Marshall's musical genius.

Like Lennon with Dylan. Lennon didn't like something Dylan did with his fame, so he wrote a song about it, so goes the story. And "Serve Yourself" turns out to be a hell of a song. Yoko Ono got pissed at the state of women in society and wrote "Woman is the Nigger of the World", one of the most powerful commentaries in all of popular music.

Getting around to Moby as a point of order in business as usual is hardly any proper response. Rather, if Eminem resents Moby's comments enough to publicly react, he ought to either transcend clever irony or else raise his clever irony as such to a new level.BTW- What work has Moby done, that outclasses him over Eminem????Well, barring any direct suggestions, I went out and downloaded two songs today, just for the hell of it. Moby's "Natural Blues" and Eminem's "Without Me". See my post to Justme for the skinny on that; I'd rather not live that moment again.

But Moby's song was musical in a simple way that Eminem's was not. Moby's song moved through its keys to be sure, but Eminem's was constructed of a bunch of "hooks".

There used to be (and still might be) a magazine called Circus. Now, for those who read GFTPM, well, they can have a laugh at this. In the back of Circus there were usually between two and four articles on various songs. The two consistent articl