At the VMA, Eminem was talking about beating up Moby or something. So everyone started booing Eminem.

In the re-run, they edited out the booing. That is really gay.

hahaha. glad i saw the first.. and i must add.... it was great to show g-n-r. wish i would've listen to that guy and put a tape in the vcr. but hey. im sure it will be in constant broadcast for the next two weeks. its mtv.

im glad he did it huh.... he has the balls to say what most of us are too woosey to say.... even though he might not mean it.

It's not about balls, it's about marketing. Eminem says anything which will either piss people off, or have them saying "he's honest", whatever will get his face in the news and sell him CDs. He wants your money.

A friend of mine pointed out a few weeks ago, as relates Eminem specifically and the rap art in general: Yo, "Em", your name is "Marshall". Why is it that rappers are always about "keeping it real" unless "it" is themselves?

What I think is funny about it is that Eminem basically admitted that he was scared. Moby? So what if Marshall will hit a man with glasses? All it really shows is that real musicians scare Eminem sh@tless.

And why is it that anyone who talks so much about themselves as Eminem is prone to do is courageous for "telling it like it is"?

Hey, You Killed Jesus--what does that mean, that it was "gay"? I mean, life is much happier without the booing, but we all could have done without Marshall in the first place.

I would like to thank all the dead-eyed, slack-jawed morons who made this possible. I hold the buyers of Eminem albums in the same esteem I hold the buyers of Milli Vanilli, Michael Bolton, Kenny G, or Vanilla Ice, among others. Thank you so much for helping keep our airwaves packed with crap.

Think of it this way--Americans make jokes about Germans because Germans apparently bought or buy David Hasselhof albums in droves.

Anyone looked at our pop charts lately?

And when you stop to think about that stupidity of the masses, just for kicks stop and think that the American masses also whittled their electoral choices down to Gore and Bush.

Oh, well. At least Marshall's not "Artist of the Millenium".

Five short steps to make your own Eminem album

(1) Press "RECORD" on tape recorder
(2) Press "START" on drum machine
(3) Whine like a baby for forty minutes
(4) Pay a DJ friend to cut in samples of Miles Davis, Van Halen, and Slayer
(5) Sit back and wonder if it wouldn't be easier to get paid to bitch if you were in Papa Roach

Soon enough, you too can be threatening people on national TV.

I disagree with the notion that Eminem says anything other people are too woozy to say. After all, it seems a better question as to why anyone pays for it? When I was in college, I could sit around and listen to my girlfriend's father threaten people, bash gays, and rip on women. And that didn't cost me a dime.

Whether it's the VMA, the Grammys, or just the Billboard Top 40, remember the mantra of pop music: I'm so cool. I'm just like everyone else. I'm so cool. I'm just like everyone else.

Think about the tastes of collectives. Look at what it really is you're paying for with Eminem. If he wants to make a statement about how tough he is, he ought to cut a burning Cadillac into pieces onstage with a chainsaw while wearing only a jockstrap.

When I heard Eminem's remarks on M2, all I could think was, We miss you Wendy, wherever you are.

Sad thing is that I'm not particularly upset at Marshall. Rather, if I bother to think about it, I'm more pissed at all the little spunkheads that buy his CD's and wear his hair.

Think about the tastes of collectives.

--Tiassa :cool:

Did Eminem give a reason for wanting to beat up Moby?

Wow tiassa, add some beats, try to rhyme some, and keep bitching like that and you might be able to make a whiny album like Eminem.

"Thank you so much for helping keep our airwaves packed with crap."

You're not required to listen to what is on the "airwaves". I don't watch MTV or listen to the radio.

Tiassa, would you marry me? :)

-lol-.. but i thought.... mhh.. maybe im wrong..

anyhow..

he's an entertainer, not a religous leader. his job is to entertain. and when i listen.... i feel entertained. ..its always fun to listen to what he comes up with next.

no- you're right, nightfall:D

Did anyone ever notice that in all his songs he refers to himself constantly. Ego? Anyone...

yes. and i like his ego. its better than "boom boom boom, i gotta ho.. boom bom boom look at my dough..."

no- you're right, nightfall
-wanders off giggling-

Saith

Nah. You might notice how little I refer to myself in that post. It just wouldn't be "real" enough, you know?You're not required to listen to what is on the "airwaves".Well, duh. That's why I don't. I haven't listened to commercial radio for ten years. As a matter of fact, we found in Seattle that the more people decide not to listen to commercial radio stations, the more prominent and aggressive the stations become. Personally, music seems better when the people are allowed to like or dislike it, and not when the record company spends a bunch of money trying to incite radio stations and MTV to play the record more.

Gerbile

Really, I'm just horrible with laundry. I can cook, but that's about my only contribution to domestic bliss ;)

Nightfall

What they come up with next: that's how I feel about a lot of artists in the world--writers, musicians, directors ....

But I'm curious as to what makes it so entertaining to listen to a guy whine about how cool he is and who he doesn't like.

I keep waiting for someone to walk up to him on the street and beat his head in. After all, it seems to be the thing to do when you don't like someone.

And, Nightfall, considering the comparison you offered, I might advise that you try listening to actual music sometime. When "ego" isn't what you're buying, I guarantee you a better music-listening experience. Try Belle and Sebastian's I'm Waking Up to Us; it's a CD-single (I think they call it an Ep, but there's an oft-abused designation) that doesn't cost a whole lot, features much musicality, and at least 2/3 of the lyrical content is about the character of "I". ("I need someone to take some joy in something I do" or "I love my car ...") You can have it both: ego and quality. Or the Sisters of Mercy ("I want more ... I need all the love I can get, and I need all the love that I can't get to ...")

Firefly

I had assumed it jealousy. He's outclassed by Moby, and I can imagine that Moby made an Eminem joke at some point. I would think the press trail on this would be huge, but that's how little I care as to not look it up. But if it's not envy, then I'm puzzled as to why Marshall would bother with the stunt. Maybe he's just that freakin' stupid.

In General

Most days I ignore Eminem. But when he threatens people on television in a desperate attempt to jack up his waning credibility, in a desperate attempt to give the image of "being real", I tend to let my thoughts be known when the subject comes up.

You know, I don't necessarily need for virtues to be "cool". I don't care what people talk about in their lyrics. But once, just once I would like to see the general public get behind good musicians when it's not by accident. Just once I would like to see good music be considered cool and real when it's not by sheer accident of the record companies' luck.

Yeah, it's selfish. And I do have to listen to those damn airwaves if I choose to enter the public sphere at all. It's not like I can escape it. I wonder when the Muzak Eminem is coming. After all, I used to hear really bad synth-string arrangements of Nirvana, Bowie, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, and so forth, even Motley Crüe and Poison. And people wonder why I don't go out as much anymore.

And in the meantime, radio, a medium that has never met its full potential, continues to be wasted on the Eminems, Kid Rocks, and Destiny's Children ... anyone ever wonder how an album can be a "hit" before it's even released?

I tell you: if the music is good, they don't have to market it like that.

If I walk up to you and say, "You want to f--k me," what do you say?

On the other hand, if a record company walks up to you and says, "You will like this song," why do people just nod and say, "I will like this song ...."?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

When I referred to the editing as "gay", I meant that this was a possibly career-killing move on his part, and MTV edited it to make it look like nothing happened. That marks my disapproval.

The sooner we can get rid of Eminem, the better. I personally hope he makes more disasterous PR moves.

I like this last mini-essay of yours, Tiassa. :)

I find Eminem over-hyped and more than a bit pathetic. He is like a child who picks fights just to get the attention.

:D To hell with laundry!!!

Earth needs more people with your opinions. :cool:

Thank you, You Killed Jesus. I just needed clarification on that. It always puzzles me when people employ new, random definitions of words like that.

Unfortunately, it's only a career-killing move on Eminem's part if the people who listen to his music are intelligent enough to not worship selfishness.

Frankly, I don't think it was a career-killing move.

At best I could say he's trying to be Andy Kaufman. But I love Andy too much to think that true. If that was actually the case, then Marshall would be a little bit smarter (okay, a whole lot smarter) about how to do pull off such an imitation.

Xev ... why thank you :D And I think you have it exactly right. Overhyped and childish form the mere tip of the stupid iceberg.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Five short steps to make your own Eminem album
3) Whine like a baby for forty minutes

Guess you should have thrown in "and talk about yourself". But yeah, he does talk about himself a lot. Can't really say I've ever thought about it myself. But then again Im not a big fan of rap, so I rarely listen to Eminem.

Well, duh.

Lol, I think we both know what I meant. Im quite sure that if you know how to post then you know how not watch TV or listen to the radio.

On the other hand, if a record company walks up to you and says, "You will like this song," why do people just nod and say, "I will like this song ...."?

That's a huge overexaggeration.

SaithThat's a huge overexaggeration.Is it? If you watch closely, the record industry has a habit of advertising a "hit single" before it is even released. I noticed it with a Backstreet Boys album a couple of years ago, but it seems to me, in retrospect, that this has been going on for a long time. I think I noticed the same with Beyonce Knowles' single not too long ago.

Furthermore, there is a tradition in the record industry once known as payola (http://www.history-of-rock.com/payola.htm). This is the practice of the record companies paying radio stations to give certain songs more airplay. What you're hearing on the radio is purchased advertising for a limited number of albums. It's still a problem, as documented in this 2001 Salon article (http://dir.salon.com/ent/feature/2001/03/14/payola/index.html). The online magazine has kept after the story (http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2002/06/25/pfp_congress/). ABC's 20-20 (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/2020_payola_020524.html) has even tackled the story. What you hear in the Top 40 is essentially what people have paid for you to hear.

And when you stop to think about the rest of the pop music culture, it's dizzying. MTV tells you what's cool with a "buzz clip". MTV bans videos according to ideology. Think of what is acceptable on MTV and then watch Soundgarden's Jesus Christ Pose video and explain to me why that video was "inappropriate" for airplay. Socialite magazines and tabloids slobber all over the "stars", and record stores hand out free "magazines" containing mush articles on the latest pop rage.

Record companies tell people what to like. It's shocking how many of them just nod and put the money down. It reminds me of a Simpsons episode ... You are watching Fox .... ("We are watching Fox.")

A little bit about, for instance, my own favorite bands and where I hear them in the public sphere:

• Floater: not on the radio, not on MTV
• Rheostatics: not on the radio, not on MTV
• Clumsy Lovers: not on the radio, not on MTV
• Boiled in Lead: not on the radio, not on MTV
• Belle & Sebastian: public (college) radio, not on MTV

What I didn't hear versus what I did (at relevant and related times):

• Did NOT hear Rufus Wainwright; did hear Dylan's son (Wallflowers?) covering Bowie
• Did NOT hear Screaming Trees; did hear Nelson
• Do NOT hear Floater; do hear System of a Down, Puddle of Mudd, and a host of similar bands

Now, we can say what we want about people's opinions. Clumsy Lovers and Boiled in Lead--there's a couple of bands who would rarely make pop radio anyway. But the point is that there are actually better musicians and there is better music out there than what is popular. This would be just fine if it wasn't for the fact that when we, say, consider that second list, the reason I heard Dylan's kid covering Bowie, the reason I heard Nelson, and the reason I hear a bunch of poseur heavy bands on the airwaves is because the record companies are paying off the radio stations to play that stuff instead of Rufus Wainwright, Screaming Trees, or Floater. Think how it must feel for Floater, to be the best band in the state, possibly in three states, and not be able to get airplay in your own hometown.

One of my favorite social activities is to take a friend who doesn't hear much live music into the club scene, and watch their jaw drop. Most people don't know how much good music is in their own neighborhood, mostly because the record companies spend so much money, time, and effort convincing people that this or that is the only music that matters. I remember taking a friend to a show at Seattle's Sit & Spin (a bar/rock room/laundromat) to see Kent 3 and Wellwater Conspiracy. The music was crushing, and it was fun to point out all the local music icons that had turned out for the show--there was a guy from Mudhoney, there was a guy from the Melvins, that sort of thing. Changed his life. Or taking a friend to the Owl & Thistle to see a friend of mine in a jazz quartet; he was surprised to see the room packed to the gills with ravenous fans, and was even more surprised when he found out what passed for jazz.

All I'm after is that if you stop listening to the record companies, the radio airwaves, and the cottage-industry press surrounding pop music, there's a lot more good stuff out there. It's a better world. Watching someone realize that there is an "out there" and that it's "better" out there is one of the rare innocent delights I still experience.

And that's why I don't think it's a huge overstatement. The record companies speak, and the consumers drool.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

>>>I disagree with the notion that Eminem says anything other people are too woozy to say. After all, it seems a better question as to why anyone pays for it? When I was in college, I could sit around and listen to my girlfriend's father threaten people, bash gays, and rip on women. And that didn't cost me a dime.

Tiassa, thanks so much for that tidbit, had me laughing my rear off.

Another reason I think crap gets radio play is that people download music off the net. The only music with radio play are the albums that sell in the store - purchased by fans who can't figure out how to read email let alone figure out how to use the usenet. This is my explanation for boy bands, at least!

Eminem is just trying to hold on to his 15 minutes of fame. Think of how Maryln Manson was so "offensive" - now he probably spends his days trying to figure out how he can get five minutes on Letterman.

And that's why I don't think it's a huge overstatement. The record companies speak, and the consumers drool.

They can't just tell you to like something and you like it. It has to be appealing to a large amount of people. No matter what record companies say or how influential you think they are, there are hundreds of bands out there that they could never get a large group of people to like. It's not like they can say, "Oh hey, Diet of Worms (or hundres of other bands) is tons cooler than Britney Spears and Eminem" and all of the sudden they are more populary than them. No matter how much you play them on the radio they are always going to suck. Sure they will get a larger fan base of course, that is what advertising does. And they will have more fans that other bands of equal shittyness. But they will never be on the Top 10.

Most bands I come across that aren't well known, aren't all that great. Occasionally I come across unknown bands that I like a ton, like Pig, Funker Vogt, Halo In Reverse, Assemblage 23 etc.. Which I like much much more than the songs I hear on the radio. But... the radio is trying to target the main crowd and Im not apart of that crowd. So I don't like radio.

Personally I think the fact that you think the record companies have more control than they really do, is because a lot of people don't realize that what is on MTV or the Radio isn't the best music, just the most popular music. And that it's not the only good music out there, just the only advertised music out there. There is a "best for the majority of tastes" and a "best for your taste". But there is no "best". And I alot of people don't realize that. And once they catch on they overexaggerate it and sometimes will even act like we are all brainwashed or something.

Kinda like those punks you see always talking about sell outs and corporate labels. They let it go to there heads, they see so many people ignoring things that have come to there attention, that they naturally overexaggerate it to try and get the point across. But they end up just looking goofy and childish. Or even Eminem. He does the same thing. He sees a flaw in America and overexaggerates it.

They can't just tell you to like something and you like it. It has to be appealing to a large amount of people. No matter what record companies say or how influential you think they are, there are hundreds of bands out there that they could never get a large group of people to like.Read the payola links again.

Denial, good Saith is not just a river in Egypt.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Did Eminem give a reason for wanting to beat up Moby?

Uhh ya, like Moby talking shit about everything that Eminem comes out with. Dissing him on MTV.

Those could be a few reasons.

"They can't just tell you to like something and you like it. It has to be appealing to a large amount of people. No matter what record companies say or how influential you think they are, there are hundreds of bands out there that they could never get a large group of people to like"

As I recall, New Kids on the Block was just some random kids that a record company pulled together and got everyone to like.

Lol. Ok if you really think that any band in the world can become popular if the record companies says so, fine with me.

As I recall, New Kids on the Block was just some random kids that a record company pulled together and got everyone to like.

Random? What they rolled some dice? Im sure they put thought into it. It's not like they would pull some homeless people of the street and give them harmonicas and say they are cool and everyone believes them and starts buying there albums.

Record companies do try to look at the majority of peoples interests, not just completely invent them. You're not ever going to turn on your radio and hear Ariah every 30 minutes on 3 different stations.

Ah, I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure NKOTB was just some kids that the company found that they figured were good looking enough that they made into a band. The members were friends and their eventual producer saw them all and created a band out of them by giving them a name, having writers write their songs, musicians play the instruments and, rumour has it, singers sing their songs.

i doubt that they (at least not all) of them had someone sing for them.. otherwise they would not have gone on later to have other careers as singers.. im not sure... but i think one or two of the members of LFO were members of NKOTB.

From the Austin-American Statesman (http://www.austin360.com/aas/life/ap/ap_story.html/Entertainment/AP.V8500.AP-MTV-Awards.html)But after accepting a trophy from Christina Aguilera--who appeared to want nothing to do with a man who has mocked her in song--he was booed for referring to the electronica star Moby as a girl. Moby, who has criticized Eminem's lyrics as misogynistic, was also spoofed in the "Without Me" video.

Taken aback by the boos, Eminem appeared to glance in Moby's direction and said, "I will hit a man with glasses."
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020830/i/1030679221.3825549431.jpg
Eminem, being tough.

From NME (http://www.nme.com/news/102436.htm)As part of the show he staged a mock murder of the dance star to the delight of fans. A Moby impersonator with a bald wig and red tracksuit walked on to the stage saying ‘Look at me! I’m a spaceboy’, and then flew up in the air.

Eminem then told fellow MC Obie Trice to "get my gun", before he aiming and firing in the direction of the impersonator. 'Moby' then fell to the ground, although it turned out to be a rag doll.Hmm ... sounds like he's threatening terrorism to me. Assassination, specifically ;)

Man, Eminem really is afraid of real musicians.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Eminem is just trying to hold on to his 15 minutes of fame. Think of how Maryln Manson was so "offensive" - now he probably spends his days trying to figure out how he can get five minutes on Letterman.

*Xev grins and remembers something*
Marilyn Manson Now Going Door-To-Door Trying To Shock People (http://www.theonion.com/onion3703/marilyn_mason.html)

Methinks that these antics give Eminem and his sort too much attention. In that vein....back to reading "Merrick" and blowing things up on the computer!

Xev, thanks for the link, that onion article was pretty funny :)

Originally posted by tiassa

Man, Eminem really is afraid of real musicians.



Since when has Moby ever been a real musician.:rolleyes:

I find it strange, that people are attacking Eminem for defending himself against what was said about him. Last time I checked, Moby started this feud, not Eminem.

What did Moby do to start this battle? I never heard, sorry.

tiassa, I like listening to Eminem. I'm 18. From your posts, I would guess that you are the elder. I like the rhythms and sounds of his loops and I think he's got a great knack for rapping. Sorry if you don't like him, but the majority of the youth, who make up the majority of "pop" radio station listeners, do.

I like the rhythms and sounds of his loops and I think he's got a great knack for rapping. Sorry if you don't like him, but the majority of the youth, who make up the majority of "pop" radio station listeners, do.

Of course, if the majority of youth were able to recognize talent, they would never listen to "rap" or "pop" music. ;)

What did Moby do to start this battle? I never heard, sorry.

NEW YORK (Top 40 Charts) - Wondering why Eminem singles out 'NSync 's Chris Kirkpatrick and Moby in his new song, "Without Me," from his forthcoming The Eminem Show?
The rapper told MTV's Total Request Live on Thursday (May 2) during the premiere of the video that it's because Kirkpatrick was the only boy band member who had the guts to say something back to him, after the rapper attacked the group and boy bands in general on his last album.

On why he attacks Moby in the song and video, Em sarcastically told TRL that he liked Moby, but feels bad that no one else does. The Moby attack is an obvious retaliation to the techno king's comments following the 2001 GRAMMY® Awards when he said the rapper was "very clever, but he's also a misogynist, a homophobe, a racist, and an anti-Semite".

http://top40-charts.com/news.php?nid=2764&string=Moby

im reading this thread and just had to say a few things:
first of all moby started this whole thing..static76 said it right, moby said on mtv about Eminem that he was a racist and all those things static76 said. (which is really so stupid to say because you can say many things about Eminem, but not that hes a racist, so obviously moby started talking shit while he didnt know what he was talking about). Then Eminem mentioned Moby in his song. Moby responded back saying that if Hailie (the 6 year old daughter of Eminem) would ever date a guy that would abuse her, it would be Eminems fault, because Eminem said this was ok. I guess this really pissed Em off, because his daughter means everything to him.

What kinda bothered me in this thread is that some people pretended that its so easy to make a cd like Eminem, just whine a bit and put some beats under it..well if you dont like his music, thats fine by me, everyone his or her taste, but you cant say he doesnt got any talent because he got great rhyming talents, try to make a rhyme like him which flows as his rhymes do, and see what i mean..

but you cant say he doesnt got any talent because he got great rhyming talents, try to make a rhyme like him which flows as his rhymes do, and see what i mean..

You mean like this:

Album: Slim Shady EP Song: Low, Down, Dirty
Warning, this shit's gon be rated R, restricted
You see this bullet hole in my neck? It's self inflicted
Doctor slapped my momma, "Bitch you got a sick kid"
Arrested, molested myself and got convicted
Wearing visors, sunglasses and disguises
Cause my split personality is having an identity crisis
I'm Dr. Hyde and Mr. Jekyll, disrespectful
Hearing voices in my head while these whispers echo
"Murder Murder Redrum"
Brain size of a bread crumb
Which drug will I end up dead from
Inebriated, till my stress is eleviated
"How in the fuck can Eminem and shady be related?"
Illiterate, illigitimate shit spitter
Bitch getter, hid in the bush like Margot Kidder
Jumped out (Ahhhh!) killed the bitch and did her
Use to let the babysitter suck my dick when I was little'er
Smoke a blunt while I'm titty fuckin Bette Midler
Sniper, waiting on your roof like the Fiddler
Y'all thought I was gonna rhyme with Riddler
Didn't Ya? Bring your bitch I wanna see if this dick gon' fit in her
[E] I'm low down and I'm shiftee!
"And if you hear a man that sounds like me smack him
and ask him where the fuck did he get his damn raps from.."
I lace tunes, I'm out this world like Space Moons
With a bunch crazed loons dismissin brains like braze wounds
Nothing but idiots and misfits, dipshits
Doing whippits, passed out like Sanford snippits
Where's the weed, I wanna tamper with it
I'ma let your grandpa hit it
Mix it up with cocaine so her can't forget it
Fuck it, maybe I'm a bum
But I was put on this earth to make your baby mama cum
So what I'm on is way beyond the bomb or any alcoholic beverage
Losing all of my leverage
Went up inside the First National Bank broke, and left rich
Walking bio-hazard causing wreckage
Smoked out like Eckridge
Band just making my neck itch
What the fuck? Gimme the tech bitch
You just lost your tip, there's a pubic hair in my breakfast
Got shit popping off like bottle cap tips
Get your cap peeled like the dead skin of your mama's chapped lips
Slap hips, support domestic violence
Beat your bitches ass while your kids stare in silence
I'm just joking, is Dirty Dozen's really dust smoking?
If all your shit's missing, than probably one of us broke in
Chorus
My head's ringing, like it was Spider Sense tingling
Lit it like Green Bay did when they shitted on New England
I'm out the game, put the second string in
This Brandy got my swinging
Bobbing back and forth like a penguin
Delinquent, toking microphones with Broken English
Make your mama be like "Ohh! This is good! Who sing this?"
"Slim Shady, his tape is dope, I love it
It's rugged, but he needs to quit talking all that drug shit."
It was predicted by a medic
I'd grow to be an addicted diabetic
Living off liquid Triametic
Pathetic, but I don't think this headache's ever vanishing
Panicing, I think I might have just took too much Anasin
Frozen Manaquin, posted stiffer than a statue
I think I'm dying, God is that you?
Somebody help me, before I OD on an LP
Take me to ER ASAP for and IV
Motherfuck JLB, they don't support no hip hop
They say that's where it ends, the closest they gon come is Tupac
It's politics, it's all a fix
Setup by these white blue collared hicks
Just to make a dollar off of black music
With a subliminal ball of tricks
But those can kiss ass and swallow dicks

Oh yeah, this is quality writing. :rolleyes:

^^^yep now can you rhyme like that??.. or try to rap with it with the song, you'll see it aint so easy, the song low down dirty that you just posted is very old, its a song from before he was a famous rapper, he grew lyrically, at least thats my opinion, some people think his best times were with his infinite album though (which was his first album before he got famous), anyways here is a part of a song from his new album which i like a lot (the song White America from the eminem show), and you will see he got real good rhyming skills:
[Eminem]
Look at these eyes, baby blue, baby just like yourself
If they were brown Shady lose, Shady sits on the shelf
But Shady's cute, Shady knew Shady's dimples would help
Make ladies swoon baby (ooh baby!) Look at my sales
Let's do the math - if I was black, I woulda sold half
I ain't have to graduate from Lincoln High School to know that
But I could rap, so fuck school, I'm too cool to go back
Gimme the mic, show me where the fuckin studio's at
When I was underground, no one gave a fuck I was white
No labels wanted to sign me, almost gave up I was like
Fuck it - until I met Dre, the only one to look past
Gave me a chance and I lit a FIRE up under his ass
Helped him get back to the top, every fan black that I got
was probably his in exchange for every white fan that he's got
Like damn; we just swapped - sittin back lookin at shit, wow
I'm like my skin is it startin to work to my benefit now? It's..

[Chorus]
White America! I could be one of your kids
White America! Little Eric looks just like this
White America! Erica loves my shit
I go to TRL; look how many hugs I get!

[Eminem]
See the problem is, I speak to suburban kids
who otherwise woulda never knew these words exist
Whose moms probably woulda never gave two squirts of piss
'til I created so much motherfuckin turbulence!
Straight out the tube, right into your living rooms I came
And kids flipped, when they knew I was produced by Dre
That's all it took, and they were instantly hooked right in
And they connected with me too because I looked like them
That's why they put my lyrics up under this microscope
Searchin with a fine tooth comb, it's like this rope
waitin to choke; tightenin around my throat
Watchin me while I write this, like I don't like this (Nope!)
All I hear is: lyrics, lyrics, constant controversy, sponsors working
round the clock to try to stop my concerts early, surely
Hip-Hop was never a problem in Harlem only in Boston
After it bothered the fathers of daughters startin to blossom
So now I'm catchin the flack from these activists when they raggin
Actin like I'm the first rapper to smack a bitch or say faggot, shit!
Just look at me like I'm your closest pal
The posterchild, the motherfuckin spokesman now for..
(chorus: ) white america!....

i think its personal if you dont like what he raps about..me personally dont like the always happyhappyhappy songs which has no real meaning..im not trying to convince anyone to listen to Eminem or to like what he says, but just want to point out he does got talents..

and you will see he got real good rhyming skills

Anyone can rhyme, if you got the time, and it don't mean shit, if you're not a half-wit.

"Rhyming skills" have nothing to do with quality writing.

im not trying to convince anyone to listen to Eminem or to like what he says, but just want to point out he does got talents.

Judging by his lyrics, his main talent is talking much while saying very little. You could sum up the entire song:

I am a white rapper making lots of money, screw you.

Sorry for.. not contributing to discussion, etc, but...

In that pic posted up there ... who's with Eminem? :confused:

Static76I find it strange, that people are attacking Eminem for defending himself against what was said about him. Last time I checked, Moby started this feud, not Eminem.If Eminem doesn't like being characterized as misogynist, anti-Semitic, or racist, perhaps he shouldn't spend so much time bitching and whining about other people. If Eminem thinks an abusive mate is suitable for his daughter, I question the value of everything in his world.

But if Eminem has to resort to threats in order to defend his credibility, we see what he has left in the tank. The VMA stunt was a terribly inefficient effort on Marshall's part.Since when has Moby ever been a real musician.Well, unlike Eminem, he can make his own albums, he can play his own instruments, and he knows what music is, as opposed to machismo hype. I'm not the biggest Moby fan by any means; I don't even own a Moby album. But he's definitively the better musician of the two.

Phrenetictiassa, I like listening to Eminem. I'm 18. From your posts, I would guess that you are the elder. I like the rhythms and sounds of his loops and I think he's got a great knack for rapping. Sorry if you don't like him, but the majority of the youth, who make up the majority of "pop" radio station listeners, do.Well, that's their problem. Given the fact that they're just responding to record companies telling them what they like, we see the problem with pop radio listeners. Perhaps at 18 being a professional bitch like Eminem seems a good use of studio resources, but at 29, I just want someone onstage who can play.

The problem I have with a "great knack for rapping" is that it reminds me of Vanilla Ice, who is infamous for saying things like, "Rap is the hardest music to write because you have to make the words rhyme."

He's white and he has "a great knack for rapping". This does not make him the Beastie Boys, and he ought to try something more substantive than imitation. But part of this ties in with someone else's comments:

JustmeWhat kinda bothered me in this thread is that some people pretended that its so easy to make a cd like Eminem, just whine a bit and put some beats under it..well if you dont like his music, thats fine by me, everyone his or her taste, but you cant say he doesnt got any talent because he got great rhyming talents, try to make a rhyme like him which flows as his rhymes do, and see what i mean..Making any album is generally tough. Admittedly, Nirvana's Bleach was a one-day album but you can tell it's possible by listening to it. But turn on a drum machine--now you don't need actual drumming rhythm, it's already there for you. Turn on a sample loop--now you don't need actual musical instruments. Compared to a My Bloody Valentine or a Radiohead or a Beach Boys or a Gorillaz, Eminem's production quality is midget. I have yet to hear an Eminem track that impresses me, lyrically, intellectually, or musically. Take a listen around to other professional bitches in the game. Eminem is one of the cheapest. You're welcome to list the "best" Eminem track you know of as far as production goes. I'll be happy to download it from Limewire or Acquisition and listen to it until my ears bleed, and then I'll be happy to tell you what I think of its production.

I mean, technically, Tiffany's debut album was not easy in a very similar way that Eminem's album was not easy. It takes a lot of work to compile an album. But the presence of an album does not a musician make.

In General

Seriously, think of it this way: If Moby had threatened Eminem, everybody would be shocked at the crass behavior. With Eminem, such lack of civility is what we've come to expect.

I don't care if people want to idolize it. That's their problem. However, when an issue of musical pride (being an Eminem fan) creates problems for people realizing that the man is a menacing, threatening boor, well? I mean, come on--if it had nothing to do with Eminem, if it was Thom Yorke or Bobby Gillespie or some such, people wouldn't be saying, "But ____ called their music what it is" as a defense for threats and harassment. Frankly, what's scariest about Eminem is his fans. They're dumb enough to buy it, but that's a matter of taste. However, it also seems they're dumb enough to defend threats of violence. What's the matter? Eminem can criticize other people in his music but he has to threaten someone who points out the obvious about his music?

I mean, seriously--Eminem must be scared of real musicians.

If he had what it took to prove his point in the studio, he would. But he doesn't, so he behaves like a child. So appealing to children, I guess; what are you gonna do? Oh, that's right--spend more money buying even more of his stuff.

What's funny is that in the beginning, all I ever had against Eminem was a house joke because one of our friends was on a fashion tear that happened to coincide with the release of Slim Shady; for weeks it was not uncommon to have some slobbering Eminem fan actually think this guy was Marshall. Maybe it seems strange to me since I'm of the internet generation that's capable of looking up my favorite musicians' tour and appearance schedules, but on days when Eminem is known to be on the opposite coast? Come on .... Really, all I ever had against Eminem in the beginning was a private house joke about a friend's haircut.

And then I listened to the music. It's not horrible, Even "bad" is my own sense of opinion. But it's a cheap, overblown pop performance. He's a closet diva in his own mind. Can he evolve? Or will the next album be more of the same?

He's not a musician, he's a performer. Like Whitney Houston, for instance. She may have a better voice that Rufus Wainwright, but at least Rufus could remember the goddamn lyrics to Somewhere Over the Rainbow.

As a last note: Smile is coming in the next few years. Perhaps even earlier than that. Brian Wilson, of the Beach Boys, has promised to give us that album at some point. Those who remember the studio release of Smiley-Smile will be pleased that they finally get the real album. But it's 35 years later, and the labor of love is not yet complete.

Here's the thing: When it comes out, the general consensus is that it will still be decades ahead of contemporary pop music.

So I won't be kind to the "effort" of making one of Marshall's albums. Just like I'm not kind to the "effort" of any manufactured album. In the annals of recording history are a bunch of guys who people just don't know about who have done all the real work to make it possible for dumb-assed albums like Eminem's to even be made. I prefer to honor their talents instead. Professional bitching is not a talent, or else I could be making a fortune on this topic alone. As long as I'm looking at talent issues, I might as well stand with the talented ones.

Really: talent isn't a defense. Effort isn't a defense. A "knack for rapping" isn't a defense. If Eminem had any talent, he would crush Moby with talent, and not reduce himself even more with threats. Seriously: Lennon recorded "Serve Yourself" allegedly as a response to Dylan. People do it. "Serve Yourself" is one of the coolest songs ever written. Of course, I also have a demo version of it with incomplete lyrics, so I get to be in on a couple of jokes that makes the song that much more fun. But Lennon didn't have to threaten Dylan when something Bob did bugged him. He just wrote a damn good song and everybody knew the score when they heard it.

You would think that if Eminem had any talent or common sense, he would be able to step up his game and show his superiority to Moby.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Eminem writes awful music. Fact.

Originally posted by tiassa
Static76If Eminem doesn't like being characterized as misogynist, anti-Semitic, or racist, perhaps he shouldn't spend so much time bitching and whining about other people. If Eminem thinks an abusive mate is suitable for his daughter, I question the value of everything in his world.

But if Eminem has to resort to threats in order to defend his credibility, we see what he has left in the tank. The VMA stunt was a terribly inefficient effort on Marshall's part.Well, unlike Eminem, he can make his own albums, he can play his own instruments, and he knows what music is, as opposed to machismo hype. I'm not the biggest Moby fan by any means; I don't even own a Moby album. But he's definitively the better musician of the two.




:rolleyes: tiassa, Eminem has never said anything about Jews, he sure as hell isn't racist (the concept is ridiculous when you consider who he hangs with), he's not aniti-gay(even Elton John felt the Media was over blowing everything), and he's not anti-women(he's repeatedly called out deadbeat dads in his songs and always say his songs are a reflection of the craziness in our society). So basically, Moby LIED and was talking out of his ass.

The funny thing is I'm not even a big Eminem fan, but to blast a guy for defending himself is just plain idiotic. What has Eminem done that is so wrong??? He said Britney, N'Sync and the pop music out today is corny, that's all. I guess it's okay for everyone else to say Pop groups suck, but not him...:rolleyes:

Eminem has never said anything about Jews, he sure as hell isn't racist (the concept is ridiculous when you consider who he hangs with), he's not aniti-gayWell, as someone quoted his lyrics:So now I'm catchin the flack from these activists when they raggin
Actin like I'm the first rapper to smack a bitch or say faggot, shit! It's a bit of an overstatement on his part. Nobody's ragging on him for being the first to hit his woman or call gay people "faggot" in anger. Rather, everybody's ragging him for keeping it up. The problem was stale when he was in kindergarten.

You'll notice his "defense" in his song is "I'm not the first" and not "I don't do that".

It's a petty excuse.

In the meantime, I would ask anybody to translate, say, the first verse of "White America" (chosen since we have the lyrics at hand). Give us your best opinion. Anyone? Anyone? Or how about that second? I'm not asking for a doctoral dissertation on Eminem, but since people wish to say he's not when his defense is that he's not the first, I'm wondering what their actual take on the lyrics might be.

Here's an interesting article (http://uspolitics.about.com/library/weekly/aa022301a.htm) which discusses some of what we're covering in this topic:Eminem's lyrics (yes, I've listened to the album) certainly are a reflection of society - they are filled with bigotry, hatred, and exhortations to violence._ But it is a shocking fallacy to suggest that hate is not hate so long as the sentiment is shared by a larger community._ David Duke does not exist in a vacuum, and Timothy McVeigh is not the nation's sole militia sympathizer._ Yet we do not exonerate their hate simply because they are members of larger communities of intoleranceI'll leave their sampling of Eminem's lyrics to anyone who wants to present a defense; I'm not particularly trustful of such short exceprts as the author provided, but there you have it. It's a two-page article that includes this jab over Eminem's Grammy performance: Apparently, when the rape of women and the murder of gays is at issue, Eminem's lyrics must be defended at all costs._ But when big bucks are at stake, Greene's and Eminem's free-speech absolutism is quickly tossed to the cutting room floorTo the other, just to show I'm not that biased, a link in Eminem's defense (http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0224/goldstein.php):There is a relationship between Eminem and his time. His bigotry isn't incidental or stupid, as his progressive champions claim. It's central and knowing—and unless it's examined, it will be free to operate. Not that this music makes men rape any more than the Klan-lionizing imagery in Birth of a Nation creates racists. The real effect is less personal than systematic. Why is it considered proper to speak out against racism and anti-Semitism but not against sexism and homophobia? It should also be pointed out that you are correct about anti-Semitism. Moby still thinks he has heard Eminem say anti-Semitic things, but that's apparently it's own issue. However, as Moby noted immediately after his most famous Eminem crack: In any case, even if he's not an anti-Semite, he's still a racist, a homophobe and a misogynist.

Whew! And we were worried about anti-Semitism. I have to admit, since the guy's just a racist, homophobe, and misogynist, I feel a whole lot better.

The thing is that I'm not going to censor it. Not going to tell him he can't say it. But I will use my equivalent right to note the stupidity of maintaining such a figure. I tend to agree with Moby when he says, I was talking to somebody earlier about the notion of Eminem being in the continuum of Elvis Presley, the Sex Pistols, Public Enemy, and Kurt Cobain. But the difference is that they were all rebellious in the sense that they were extending boundaries -- creating culture that broadened people's perspectives. The problem with Eminem is he's creating culture that appeals to the lowest common denominator. I'll even tell you a bit of a sob-story, just because it might help.

Start in, say, eighth grade, the beginning of my heavy metal years. After the expected enchantment of Twisted Sister, it would be a little while before I embraced harder music as a whole. In the end, though, my metal tastes defied conventional wisdom. Metallica? Sure, they're cool, but they're overblown. And one of the things that has marked Metallica in my book over the years is the tendency of their fans to be belligerent idiots. I don't hold the band responsible per se, but I certainly don't want to be part of that movement. Really, when I watched a backwater yokel take a swing at a black kid after saying, "You will die when I say you must die" ("Disposable Heroes", Master of Puppets) I became very attuned to the way music does or does not influence its listeners; bear in mind, also, that this is at the rise of the PMRC.

And this has cost me some in the long run; there are a few experiences I wished I was more open to, but I remember sitting around listening to Ministry fans talk about how intelligent they (the fans) were while spending the other two-thirds of their brainpower seeking beer and pussy. I actually like Ministry from time to time. But I never did get close to the music because getting close to the people who were also close to the music was unpalatable.

And then came the post-metal, post-rap rise of whatever we want to call it, which has resulted in the modern day in Kid Rock. Unfortunately, that blunder is on my generation; we were so happy when Anthrax and Public Enemy finally did their thing that we actually were stupid enough to foresee a brighter future.

Almost visceral to me is the backwater, Oregon meth-rage which came with a lot of that heavy rap. I can remember sitting around with guys claiming to be in gangs (in a town of 30,000, okay) talking about getting "beaten in" and then going out looking for pussy. I never got close to that hard rap movement, the central figures of which are, thankfully, lost to my memory.

People can say what they want about the high art of Eminem's lyrics. But I don't see it in the people who advocate his music. I see the same shitty attitudes, the same self-indulgent horseshit, that I saw nine and ten years ago. I mean, sure, there's something to be said for individual interpretation, but I'm not about to go watch Shoah because it's uplifting. Nor am I going to pretend for the sake of any subculture that I hear the same things they do.

So funny, that, as I mount my self-righteous podium. I find it distasteful when the guy on the barstool next to me says he wants to fuck this or that fourteen year-old girl. Do I blame Eminem? No. But I don't want to be part of that, and at some point that kind of thinking that I recoil from can be dangerous.

So it is possible for me to accept what people say about Eminem's lyrics, but I just don't see it. And I don't think the fans speaking on his behalf are doing him a whole lot of good. It's nice to show support, but I don't find the Eminem menagerie to be very coherent or aware. Just like those past crowds, it is the fans first and foremost that show the lyrical weakness of the "artist". It just seems to me that if Eminem's lyrics really were taken at their alleged high art value, his fans wouldn't be so incoherent, and his defense wouldn't rest on the idea that he's not the first.What has Eminem done that is so wrong??? Not much, really. Mostly I find his position objectionable the way I find the OCA objectionable, or Donald Wildmon objectionable. The position seems stupid, small-minded, divisive, and anti-progressive. It is his prerogative, but what obligation have I to respect his conclusions as legitimate?

In the end, what I see is this:

• Eminem, in the best interpretation, is a "realist" who criticizes what he sees wrong in society
• Moby criticizes Eminem
• Eminem threatens violence

That's the problem. He's a petty hypocrite at best, and the infamous hatemonger at worst.

I just want to say, "What's the matter, Marshall? Why are you so pissed that someone's being critical? After all, you make a living at it."

And the anti-Semitic bit--while that's Moby's issue as we see, and I trust that he thinks he's heard Slim Shady be anti-Semitic--is well and fair. Who is going to claim factual merit for Eminem's lyrics? The Margot Kidder line, for instance: Illiterate, illigitimate shit spitter
Bitch getter, hid in the bush like Margot Kidder
Jumped out (Ahhhh!) killed the bitch and did her
Use to let the babysitter suck my dick when I was little'er
Smoke a blunt while I'm titty fuckin Bette Midler
Sniper, waiting on your roof like the Fiddler
Y'all thought I was gonna rhyme with Riddler
Didn't Ya? Bring your bitch I wanna see if this dick gon' fit in her I'm sure he didn't mean to say that he hid in the bushes because he was in the middle of a massive drug-related psychiatric breakdown, you know. And I won't even get into the merits and demeits of titty-fucking Bette Midler. As long as you don't have to make sense, it's real easy to rhyme.

But other than that, he's on par with Beavis & Butthead: Bathe her, and bring her to me. Heh-heh.

I keep thinking of this one song from Primal Scream, the title of which escapes me. The chorus is simple: No you don't give a shit that your daughter was raped; you just called her a slut and said that she was to blame. Repeat it a few times; it's catchy.

There are a few witty lines I could stick in here about how that line relates to Eminem, but there is a difference 'twixt the two. In Primal Scream's case, it happens to be social commentary, which is an interesting distinction because so is Eminem. But unlike rappers, when musical lyricists move into such commentary, they don't make it so strictly about themselves.

That's a huge difference. Some lyricists choose to talk about society. Eminem chooses to talk about himself. A friend of mine pointed out earlier today that as far as we know, Eminem has no more hit, raped or otherwise hurt a woman than Johnny Cash did murder Delia. Yet Marshall's lyrical defense is that he's not the first ....

Perhaps what bugs me so much about Eminem is this persistent impression that the self is so important that reality is subordinate to it. Nobody's really going to pretend that by focusing on one's own desires and frustrations so exclusively that the world's going to get any better, are they?

Maybe I should blame parents. While it's not a statistical truism, it seems that of the people I know, the less musical education they have, the more prone they are to like "music" that centers around arrogant lyrical proclamations.

I went to a school of middle-class students and up. It was quite European; one year that I recall, 0.2% of the student body was black; the next year it was 0.6%. Strangely, the majority (four of the six) of black students didn't like rap. However, rap was huge among the white kids, who went from calling everyone "Nigga" to flashing hand-signs to each other in class, to bringing their "posses" onto school grounds, eventually to carrying firearms. I'm not going to blame the rap; I'm going to blame the stupid, stupid kids who listened to it.

But I'm not just going to sit back and say, "Oh, Eminem is making an artistic statement. That's alright, then."

The clear majority of Eminem fans I've known face-to-face do not impress me as intelligent enough to understand an artistic statement.

And now, here's Marshall, threatening people, and relying on this menagerie of fans to keep him afloat in this one.

--Tiassa :cool:

WOW tiassa! I just read your book...er...post and I must say you just don't get it.:rolleyes:

You quoted these lyrics:
"So now I'm catchin the flack from these activists when they raggin
Actin like I'm the first rapper to smack a bitch or say faggot, shit! "

While I don't agree with people saying the word "faggot", do you realize that's a slam guys use to put down other guys as wimpy, and it usually doesn't even have anything to do with gay people. Eminem used it in that manner.

Most of the time he used the word "bitch", he was reffering to his mom and she may fit the bill of one.

Tiassa, you miss the MAJOR point of Eminem's song that his "unitelligent fans" as you put it, understand. Eminem is about PARODY and SATIRE on our current society, most people recognize this...

Let me explain it to you. Eminem plays a character in each of his songs (for example "Stan"). He parodies the ills we see in society today, yes he doesn't hold back his language, but that's why many like his work.

It should also be pointed out that you are correct about anti-Semitism. Moby still thinks he has heard Eminem say anti-Semitic things, but that's apparently it's own issue. However, as Moby noted immediately after his most famous Eminem crack: In any case, even if he's not an anti-Semite, he's still a racist, a homophobe and a misogynist.

Whew! And we were worried about anti-Semitism. I have to admit, since the guy's just a racist, homophobe, and misogynist, I feel a whole lot better.

The thing is that I'm not going to censor it. Not going to tell him he can't say it. But I will use my equivalent right to note the stupidity of maintaining such a figure. I tend to agree with Moby when he says,

At least you admit he's not an anti-Semite....

Once again, how is Eminem racist????? I have never heard him say a racist thing.

As for being homophobic.....since you don't believe me, here's what Elton John thinks...

John is no stranger to sensitivity, but some might see such sentiment as contrasting somewhat with his ringing endorsement of controversial rapper Eminem, with whom John performed "Stan" at last year's Grammy Awards. Not only does John continue to praise the foul-mouthed superstar, he condemns the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, which vehemently protested Eminem's The Marshall Mathers LP (2000).

"I think they are a bunch of a--holes, sorry guys," John said. "I wouldn't have [worked with him] if he was homophobic, and if he was he wouldn't have asked me."

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1449631/20011005/story.jhtml

Why is Moby allowed to bash Eminem, yet Eminem is wrong to counter.....


All I can say is if you don't understand that Eminem's songs and lyrics are a parody of society, and a commentary of what we see in America today, then you missed the whole point....:)

If they are satire and parody than why is his reaction at being booed to threaten with violence? Or is that also just part of the act?

Originally posted by alanb
If they are satire and parody than why is his reaction at being booed to threaten with violence? Or is that also just part of the act?

Moby was booing him and if I'm correct he said,"Keep booing little girl, I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses".

Is that statement really that bad? Half the people in this country, say worse things to drivers that tick them off on the roads everyday, than that....

Would you prefer Eminem to have said,"Please Mr. Moby, don't hurt my feelings by booing"? :D

I would like to thank all the dead-eyed, slack-jawed morons who made this possible. I hold the buyers of Eminem albums in the same esteem I hold the buyers of Milli Vanilli, Michael Bolton, Kenny G, or Vanilla Ice, among others. Thank you so much for helping keep our airwaves packed with crap.

Yur veery welcome, ma'am. My pa says to do what the misses say.

...

Please... first, you criticize Eminem and now you stereotype his entire fanbase? Are you trying to make people angry? Because I know someone who excels in that area :cool:

Originally posted by static76
Moby was booing him and if I'm correct he said,"Keep booing little girl, I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses".

Is that statement really that bad? Half the people in this country, say worse things to drivers that tick them off on the roads everyday, than that....

Would you prefer Eminem to have said,"Please Mr. Moby, don't hurt my feelings by booing"? :D


You'd just think that such a clever little scamp would have something wittier to say than 'i'm gonna hit you if you don't quit laughing at me'.

i just lost my entire post that i written out, so i have to type it allll over again!! how annoying, but alright here i go again..Judging by his lyrics, his main talent is talking much while saying very little. You could sum up the entire song: I am a white rapper making lots of money, screw you
you obviously didnt get the song white america, this is basicly what he says in the song: if i would have been black i wouldnt have sold this much, and people wouldnt have nagged so much about my lyrics either, because im not the only one who said 'bitch' or 'faggot', but people dont like to hear it from a white boy, who looks like them, and could be their son or friendly neighbour. they dont mind it from black people, who stand further away from them..because the black rappers all said it before, and no one complained about that like they do to Eminem..

In that pic posted up there ... who's with Eminem?
thats his best friend proof, he knows him from his youth. now that eminem got famous, he tries to put his rapgroup d12 (with proof and eminem and 4 other members) to the foreground and get them famous too. all the members of that group are his friends from his youth who always stood by him and for the people on here still thinking eminem is a racist, all these guys are black...

You'll notice his "defense" in his song is "I'm not the first" and not "I don't do that".
this is not what hes saying, hes not hiding behind the fact that hes not he first to say it, just read what i said about the song in the beginning of this post...he just offers a theory in that song about why people go on and on about him and not other rappers who say the same things..

The clear majority of Eminem fans I've known face-to-face do not impress me as intelligent enough to understand an artistic statement.
i would watch out with stereotyping his fans if i were you, sorry to hear that you dont hang out with intelligent people, but i consider myself intelligent, and i dont like to beat up females or gays in my spare time and no i dont carry any guns or go around saying fuck the world all day:p ;) , in fact i am a female myself, and i dont feel offended at all by his lyrics..

static76..i totally agree with you, good to see someone here gets it :)

last thing i want to say: ITS JUST MUSIC PEOPLE!! and i never heard anyone here say that the writer of the movie seven must be a complete wacko in his head for writing such ill scripts?? in the end whats the difference between a violent movie and a song?? doesnt it just show whats going on in the world, and doesnt it show us that it doesnt necessarily has to be the opinion of the writer itself?? does anyone here really think christina aguilera is a genie in a bottle because she sings this?? i dont think so..eminem just shows us whats going on in the world in his own way, he gives a twist on it and hes very funny often too...hes a great entertainer!! at least to me he is..

hmm not totally ready yet, i forgot these quotes:
If Eminem thinks an abusive mate is suitable for his daughter, I question the value of everything in his world.
uhmm how did you get this idea?? Eminem only wants the best for his daughter...this is what moby said about eminem, not what eminem is about, so dont turn it around like it is the truth about eminem, because it is obviously not..


Well, unlike Eminem, he can make his own albums, he can play his own instruments, and he knows what music is, as opposed to machismo hype. I'm not the biggest Moby fan by any means; I don't even own a Moby album. But he's definitively the better musician of the two.
eminem makes his own albums, so again i dont know how you got this idea?? he produces most of his songs himself, and he writes his own lyrics unlike some other artists (britney spears for instance) he's executive producer and producer of many songs on devils night, the album of d12...so he's not one of those 'pop'artists that been made big while all they have to do is sing and everything else has been done for him..he makes his own music..

Why is Moby allowed to bash Eminem, yet Eminem is wrong to counter.....Stop. Don't be so silly. Think about it. I gave you a bulleted list, eh?

• Eminem criticizes in his music
• Why should he not be criticized?
• Yet he threatens people who criticize him?

Oooh! Why is poor Eminem wrong to ... what? Why is Eminem wrong to threaten somebody with violence?

Do you really need that explained to you?While I don't agree with people saying the word "faggot", do you realize that's a slam guys use to put down other guys as wimpy, and it usually doesn't even have anything to do with gay people.Do you really need that explained to you?All I can say is if you don't understand that Eminem's songs and lyrics are a parody of society, and a commentary of what we see in America today, then you missed the whole point....Two points:

• If you had read the links I included, you would have come across a very ironic point, that the same people who are publicly defending Eminem's music and saying it's so damn obvious what he's saying are also accusing huge numbers of people of not understanding. So in other words, it's obvious what he's saying if you're one of his fans and like listening to that. And the number of people who don't like him? Well, apparently they're all missing the point of what has been expressed with such genius that nobody can miss the point ... I found it ironic.

• I don't see that sense of parody in Eminem's fans. I see Eminem's fans imitating him literally. One of the primary reasons I reject "all you can say" is that if I don't see Eminem's lyrics as parodies of society, it's only because I generally favor what I see as the conventional interpretation. People keep telling me Eminem's songs are parodies and I've left that alone for a long time. But even in the people I know who listen to him a lot, the sense of parody isn't there. Like my Metallica example: "Disposable Heroes" is supposed to be an anti-war song. The majority of people I've ever discussed that issue with agree with me. Yet I saw it used as a war cry once. Well, I see the same kind of distortion of the commentary taking place on a larger scale. Sorry, but I just don't see Marshall's fans taking it as a parody and commentary. Either that or they're celebrating the characters and not the moral lessons or whatever the hell it is we're supposed to be getting from this high-cultured art.Moby was booing him and if I'm correct he said,"Keep booing little girl, I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses".Actually, quite a few people were booing him. Threatening Moby was just a cheap way to cover his own underestimation of the crowd.Moby was booing him and if I'm correct he said,"Keep booing little girl, I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses".Like I said before: Eminem is scared of real musicians. If he wasn't he would have responded in the studio. Yet we see the response is a feeble parody and a pretend murder, followed by threats issued at an awards ceremony and having to be restrained while directly harassing a person.

If Eminem was a real musician, a real artist, he would simply do his work in the studio and let that stand for him. But since he's outclassed in the studio by Moby, it seems threatening was all he could figure out.

Oh, well. He was probably just doing a "parody" of George W Bush, right?

Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's the ticket ....

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Please... first, you criticize Eminem and now you stereotype his entire fanbase? Well, yes.

You do realize Eminem reaps the benefits of payola? You do realize the record companies are paying radio stations to make him and a lot of other artists popular? Moby might even benefit from the payola. But yes: people were told to like Eminem for his fresh new voice and they did.Are you trying to make people angry? I just call it like I see it.

I mean, check it out: there's Eminem fans in here defending his threats of violence.

Shall we put the question to them directly: Do you advocate violence against Moby?

No? Then why advocate the threatening?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

you obviously didnt get the song white america, this is basicly what he says in the song: if i would have been black i wouldnt have sold this much, and people wouldnt have nagged so much about my lyrics eitherMarshall obviously missed the record sales of N.W.A., Luke Skywalker & 2 Live Crew, or the Body Count side project.

And since your next statement is wrong, I will take a moment to discuss a conversation I actually had last night in the middle of my considerations of Eminem:

• A musician friend of mine happened to stop by, one who is currently recording and producing. He wants me to have respect for the lyrics the same way other people in this topic do. He doesn't think much of the lyrics, but we did talk about them, and I pointed out a couple of things that he didn't have much to say about, so I'll run them by you:you obviously didnt get the song white america, this is basicly what he says in the song: if i would have been black i wouldnt have sold this much, and people wouldnt have nagged so much about my lyrics eitherAs a side note, my "friendly neighbors" have better ways of approaching what bugs them in the world than threatening people.

However, you have inaccurately represented the lyrics. He did not say he's not the only one who said bitch or faggot. He said he was not the first one to hit (strike, assault) a bitch or say "faggot".because the black rappers all said it before, and no one complained about that like they do to EminemAgain, Marshall must have missed a few acts that came in front of him. Public Enemy, N.W.A., 2 Live Crew ....

Secondly, I pointed out to my friend the line about Margot Kidder, which note I have already mentioned. Simply finding a word that rhymes does not make lyrical genius. Such a sentiment as Eminem writes great lyrics still reminds me of Vanilla Ice and his "Rap is the hardest music to write because the words have to rhyme" bit. If he needed to be hiding in a bush, there are a bunch of better examples to use than someone having a nervous breakdown that may or may not be drug-related. But it rhymed, so the context doesn't matter. Think of it: Illiterate, illegitimate shit spitter, bitch getter, hid in the bushes while having a drug-induced nervous breakdown ....

Commentary and parody need to have fairly accurate frames of reference. I don't protest the line, but I do laugh at its stupidity. I mean, it's a nice rhyme, but what am I supposed to think of the fans in that case? Do they know who Margot Kidder is? Aside from the rhyme, what is the merit of the line? It's not offensive, it's just dumb. It's shallow and useless as a parody. It's just fine as a rhyme.all the members of that group are his friends from his youth who always stood by him and for the people on here still thinking eminem is a racist, all these guys are black...Food for thought. I wonder if they, too, have forgotten about Public Enemy, NWA, &c.?he just offers a theory in that song about why people go on and on about him and not other rappers who say the same things..I sincerely protest the idea that other rappers don't catch shit. Perhaps you missed Bob Dole, in 1995, saving Clinton's ass; after Clinton rained his fury on Sistah Souljah, Dole saved his ass by saying, "Well, if I was President, I would make that kind of music illegal."

Sistah Souljah, N.W.A., Public Enemy, 2 Live Crew.i would watch out with stereotyping his fans if i were you, sorry to hear that you dont hang out with intelligent people, but i consider myself intelligent, and i dont like to beat up females or gays in my spare time and no i dont carry any guns or go around saying fuck the world all dayTwo points:

• The intelligent people I know simply don't bother with Eminem. I probably would have stayed out of this topic, but ....

• ... but I saw people defending his threats of violence, so I stuck my nose in it. In the meantime, what am I supposed to think of your intelligence when you advocate threats of violence?

Do you advocate violence against Moby?

Then why advocate the threat?last thing i want to say: ITS JUST MUSIC PEOPLE!! As long as it was just music, I was happy to leave it be. But it's not. Eminem chose to make it about something other than the music, and now his "intelligent" fans are advocating threats of violence.i never heard anyone here say that the writer of the movie seven must be a complete wacko in his head for writing such ill scripts??Such a comparison suggests a lack of depth on your part. The writer of the movie Seven wrote a twisted story, but you'll notice it wasn't a first-person story the way Eminem's parodies often are. You'll notice that the writer of the movie did not defend the work by saying, "I'm not the first to do the things I'm writing about."in the end whats the difference between a violent movie and a song??Generally, very little. Specifically, check the prior portion of this post.doesnt it just show whats going on in the world, and doesnt it show us that it doesnt necessarily has to be the opinion of the writer itself??First part, yes.

Second part, no it doesn't have to be the opinion of the writer. But are Eminem's lyrics honest? No? Then why are they so good? Like I pointed out before, with the Margot Kidder line, his "commentaries" are a contextual mess, his parodies without any focus in reality. Are Eminem's lyrics honest? Yes? Well?

Furthermore, the writer of Seven did not respond to criticisms of the film script by threatening people.

There's a huge difference there, as well.does anyone here really think christina aguilera is a genie in a bottle because she sings this?? There is a difference between singing about the impossible and "commenting on reality".

What am I supposed to think when here sits an Eminem fan demonstrating my point? I shall explain: Eminem's lyrical defenders say that critics have it wrong, tell us in essence that we are viewing the lyrics in the wrong context.

Yet you provide contextually disparate examples in his defense. There's nothing wrong with this if you tie it in appropriately, but the tie-ins seem to lead back to the same point: Threats of violence, and the "honesty" of Eminem's lyrics against the idea that the lyrics aren't honest.eminem just shows us whats going on in the world in his own way, he gives a twist on it and hes very funny often too...Tell me what's funny about the Margot Kidder line.

Seriously; that's one of the first lines I noticed. Not gender or race issues, but contextual inaccuracy unless the point of the lyric was having a nervous breakdown, and I just don't think that's the case.hes a great entertainer!! at least to me he isFair enough, as demonstrated by record and ticket sales.

So, is the "fact" that he is a great entertainer an excuse to threaten violence?Eminem only wants the best for his daughter...this is what moby said about eminem, not what eminem is about, so dont turn it around like it is the truth about eminem, because it is obviously not..Well? Marshall does seem to be quite approving of that kind of behavior. Tell you what: explain the Margot Kidder line, since that's sort of an anti-woman sounding bit. Show me how that line works out in relation to the rest of its verse and I will accept that Eminem does not approve (as per Moby) of abusive men through his music.eminem makes his own albums, so again i dont know how you got this idea?? he produces most of his songs himself, and he writes his own lyrics unlike some other artistsIt seems to me that Eminem fills his albums with other people's sounds. Moby is known for doing this, too, but Moby is also a demonstrated musician. Anyone, these days, can produce an album of rapping and samples.

Furthermore, as I look in, I have to disagree with Eminem making his own albums. But as I look through the album credits (http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?ean=606949329020) for The Eminem Show. Eminem is credited as "primary artist", which could be termed "designer". Denaun Porter is credited as the "producer", and also programs his rhythms for him. A guy named Steven King is his engineer and mixer. A guy named Brian Gardner mastered the album. Mark Bass has Executive Production credits. And Larry Chatman is the project coordinator, alongside Kirdis Tucker, and they work with Les Scurry, who is the Production Coordinator.

Please note, though, that I have not held the musicians against Eminem. Even talented musicians need other musicians.

Understand, for comparison: When Nirvana recorded Bleach, an album which no band has yet matched, sure they did it in a day. They had the songs rehearsed from countless repetition. But when they did it there were four people in the studio who mattered: the band and a guy named Jack Endino, who was necessary because someone had to turn the knobs. Moby has a producer and an engineer, and beyond that very little aside from the musicians.

It's just that after Brian Wilson's studio work, Kevin Shields' studio work, and watching a friend engineer and produce his own album, I really must take issue with the idea that "Eminem makes his own albums".so he's not one of those 'pop'artists that been made big while all they have to do is sing and everything else has been done for him..he makes his own music.Have you seen his production credits?

Gotta run.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

First tiassa, I'm not even really a fan of Eminem (which I said earlier), I like a few of his songs, but my problem is the free pass Moby gets, and the slams against his fans.

Stop. Don't be so silly. Think about it. I gave you a bulleted list, eh?

• Eminem criticizes in his music
• Why should he not be criticized?
• Yet he threatens people who criticize him?

Oooh! Why is poor Eminem wrong to ... what? Why is Eminem wrong to threaten somebody with violence?

Do you really need that explained to you?

There is a BIG difference between criticizing and lieing...

If I came onto these boards one day and said,"tiassa is a racist, an anti-semite, and hates atheists.", would that be okay???? I suspect you would be a little angry, and rightfully so....

As for threatening Moby, it's called testosterone my friend. We have been doing it since grade school, and will continue until we're buried in the ground.

Once again, is threatening to hit Moby really that bad???? People say worse things to others everyday in society(and this board for that matter), since when have we become a country of wimps?

I always here people ask "What happend to Rock", and I guess we now know... Would Ozzy Osbourne, Axel Rose, John Lennon, sit and take crap from an overrated DJ like Moby? It's no wonder how all the male Pop and Rock stars are starting to sound like women, we're not allowed to be men anymore.

I guess in your mind tiassa, we need more guys like N'Sync, Backstreet, or O-Town...

Also, how is saying "I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses", a horrible threat. Aren't you overreacting just a bit?


Do you really need that explained to you?

I don't see why you would, I said i disagree with it.



• If you had read the links I included, you would have come across a very ironic point, that the same people who are publicly defending Eminem's music and saying it's so damn obvious what he's saying are also accusing huge numbers of people of not understanding. So in other words, it's obvious what he's saying if you're one of his fans and like listening to that. And the number of people who don't like him? Well, apparently they're all missing the point of what has been expressed with such genius that nobody can miss the point ... I found it ironic.

I not sure I understand your point here. :confused:

• I don't see that sense of parody in Eminem's fans. I see Eminem's fans imitating him literally. One of the primary reasons I reject "all you can say" is that if I don't see Eminem's lyrics as parodies of society, it's only because I generally favor what I see as the conventional interpretation. People keep telling me Eminem's songs are parodies and I've left that alone for a long time. But even in the people I know who listen to him a lot, the sense of parody isn't there. Like my Metallica example: "Disposable Heroes" is supposed to be an anti-war song. The majority of people I've ever discussed that issue with agree with me. Yet I saw it used as a war cry once. Well, I see the same kind of distortion of the commentary taking place on a larger scale. Sorry, but I just don't see Marshall's fans taking it as a parody and commentary. Either that or they're celebrating the characters and not the moral lessons or whatever the hell it is we're supposed to be getting from this high-cultured art.

You need to get out more then...

I see 40 year old White guys, 50 year old women, listening and appreciating Eminem's songs. I see college students, business men, engineers, and housewives listening to his music.

The reason Eminem's album is sitting atop the charts for weeks is that all types of people like his music. We understand that his music is parody.

Like I said before: Eminem is scared of real musicians. If he wasn't he would have responded in the studio. Yet we see the response is a feeble parody and a pretend murder, followed by threats issued at an awards ceremony and having to be restrained while directly harassing a person.

If Eminem was a real musician, a real artist, he would simply do his work in the studio and let that stand for him. But since he's outclassed in the studio by Moby, it seems threatening was all he could figure out.

Oh, well. He was probably just doing a "parody" of George W Bush, right?

Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's the ticket ....


Why do you think he's scared of "real musicians"???He DID respond in the studio, and mentioned Moby in one of his songs. Perhaps you need to listen to the music before you slam it.

BTW- What work has Moby done, that outclasses him over Eminem????

If Eminem was a real musician, a real artist, he would simply do his work in the studio and let that stand for him. But since he's outclassed in the studio by Moby, it seems threatening was all he could figure out.
like static76 said...he did respond in the studio...
• The intelligent people I know simply don't bother with Eminem. I probably would have stayed out of this topic, but .... • ... but I saw people defending his threats of violence, so I stuck my nose in it. In the meantime, what am I supposed to think of your intelligence when you advocate threats of violence?Do you advocate violence against Moby?Then why advocate the threat?
please dont start that Eminem fans cant be intelligent, im in my final year of law study so dont tell me about being intelligent or not...you really go to far by saying those things...i dont advocate vioence againt moby, i actually never said anything on this whole thread about Eminems speech on the vma's. i dont advocate any violence at all...the only thing i mentioned was how the whole thing started off. i dont think it was the smartest move of Eminem to make to say that, but i dont blow it out of proportion either...he just said what came in his mind, and when he came back on stage to collect the 3th award he apologised in his way by saying:'you all have to excuse me, im going through some anger management classes.'
As long as it was just music, I was happy to leave it be. But it's not. Eminem chose to make it about something other than the music, and now his "intelligent" fans are advocating threats of violence.
again, i dont advocate threats of violence, i just like Eminems music a lot, and thats all, and i think everyone just reads to much into it...and im not personally responsable for what Eminem does or not does just because im a fan..and i dont think i have to defend myself because i like his music either..backing eminem up for liking his music and still being a fan of him after the vma's and his not so very smart remark, isnt the same as advocating threads of violence. further all i think he's only a human being like we all are, he makes mistakes like we all do, and he never pretends to be different than that. unlikely moby who's playing the innocent guy, while hes talking shit behind Eminems back..eminem isnt the perfect little angel, but you will never hear him say that he is or see him pretend that he is..
Such a comparison suggests a lack of depth on your part. The writer of the movie Seven wrote a twisted story, but you'll notice it wasn't a first-person story the way Eminem's parodies often are. You'll notice that the writer of the movie did not defend the work by saying, "I'm not the first to do the things I'm writing about."
again, you trying to insult me by saying i have lack of depth. if you would have thought about what you said you would notice there is some lack of depth on your side..what about a book in a first person but with violence in it or hate?? does that cross the line?? and the writer of seven didnt have to offend himself at all, because people didnt nag about it like they do with eminem..
Second part, no it doesn't have to be the opinion of the writer. But are Eminem's lyrics honest? No? Then why are they so good? Like I pointed out before, with the Margot Kidder line, his "commentaries" are a contextual mess, his parodies without any focus in reality. Are Eminem's lyrics honest? Yes? Well?
what you are practically saying is that movies/books/music which arent exactly the artists thoughts or opinions or honest, cant be good. of course it can be, fiction is a big genre, not everything has to be autobiographic to be considered good. his lyrics are in parts honest, and in parts its just a big joke and parody or just mocking with the world...for the rest his raps are sort of like a rollercoaster..this is a part of taste, you like it or not, you cant attack him on that..like he says on the real slim shady: 'I'm like a head trip to listen to..'
There is a difference between singing about the impossible and "commenting on reality".
i just took an example with christina aguilera's song, but i can say other things which arent impossible, like britney singing shes not yet a woman, though not a girl, or mariah carey singing she cant live without you, you dont take them so seriously as you do to every word eminem raps about..
Furthermore, as I look in, I have to disagree with Eminem making his own albums. But as I look through the album credits for The Eminem Show. Eminem is credited as "primary artist", which could be termed "designer". Denaun Porter is credited as the "producer", and also programs his rhythms for him. A guy named Steven King is his engineer and mixer. A guy named Brian Gardner mastered the album. Mark Bass has Executive Production credits. And Larry Chatman is the project coordinator, alongside Kirdis Tucker, and they work with Les Scurry, who is the Production Coordinator.
that link is falls, mark bass isnt executive producer, that is dr. dre, denaun porter (member of d12 by the way, one of his closest friends) co produced one song with eminem, 3 out of 15 are produced by dr. dre, all the rest is produced by Eminem itself, you could better use the album booklet to back up your album credits, because those arent completely right, but oh yeah you wouldnt have that booklet because you never listen or buy his albums:rolleyes: .

eminems lyrics have lots of sides in it, sometimes he's 'slim shady', other times he's just plain 'marshall', he got lots of sides in his music, so thats why you cant say his music is honest, or not honest, or realistic or not, because parts are and parts arent, and some parts are meant to be humour, other parts are dead serious, he mocks the whole world even himself often, for example: 'My mother did drugs - tar, liquor, cigarettes, and speed
The baby came out - disfigured, ligaments indeed
It was a seed who would grow up just as crazy as she
Don't dare make fun of that baby cause that baby was me (from the song criminal)'
...it just all comes down to taste if you like him or not..

and now im reallyyy tired, so im going to sleep:D

like static76 said...he did respond in the studio...How so? Did I miss the lyric?

I hope you're not thinking of the video, in which he responded by being an actor. And I hope you're not thinking of the fake-assassination, again in which he responded by being an actor.

If he is to respond in the studio, he should do so as a musician.

But if I missed the lyric, I would ask you to provide it. After all, the lyric is as close as I'm going to get to music in this case.please dont start that Eminem fans cant be intelligent, im in my final year of law study so dont tell me about being intelligent or not...Please don't tell you about my observations of the world? Tell me I'm wrong, if you want, but don't run away from it. I really go far? How so? By telling it like I see it? What's the matter, am I not allowed to be "honest" like Eminem?

Guess what ... I don't have to stick my nose out to be chopped off in what I say about Eminem fans. I'm perfectly willing to believe the few people who say Eminem has intelligent fans. However, I don't see intelligence in the majority of their public representation, and in my own immediate experience I can say that I have a very low opinion of the intelligence of the people I know who do like Eminem. My own opinion is based on observation of and interaction with these people who happen to like Eminem.

Further, I see no intelligence whatsoever in defending threats of violence.i dont advocate any violence at all...the only thing i mentioned was how the whole thing started off.You mean,first of all moby started this whole thingThat wonderful justification for threatening violence?

Here's a take that might ring better with you: despite my sentiments about Eminem's lyrics and the quality of his fans, I personally didn't give a rat's ass about him. He seemed no more or less illiterate and selfish than many others who have Top 40 singles. But when he extended his attitude to threatening someone on television, it struck a chord, so to speak. You'll notice Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins never publicly threatened each other that way. I see a connection between the mentality of his artistic expression and his personal expression. I mention Peter Gabriel for another reason, too, but more on that in a moment.he apologised in his way by saying:'you all have to excuse me, im going through some anger management classes.'Sounds like shameless self-promotion to me, since the tour he's on is called The Anger Management Tour (http://www.hob.com/tickets/tours/2002angermanagement/).again, i dont advocate threats of violenceRegardless of how much you say that, I keep seeing you defending his actions: ...unlikely moby who's playing the innocent guy, while hes talking shit behind Eminems back.

So what? Eminem could have won that public spat if he'd just done it in the studio. Again, point me to the lyric, but beyond that, he chose to bring it out of the studio and keep the fire burning. further all i think he's only a human being like we all are, he makes mistakes like we all do, and he never pretends to be different than thatAre you sure about that? After all, I did point out that misrepresentation of his critics in his song. Sounds like he's pretending to me.again, you trying to insult me by saying i have lack of depth.So inaccurate. I am not trying to insult you. Rather, as I noted, the comparison you've offered suggests a lack of depth. Seven, as an artistic work, is part of an entirely different context from The Eminem Show.if you would have thought about what you said you would notice there is some lack of depth on your side..what about a book in a first person but with violence in it or hate??That's why it's called fiction. Furthermore, I would hope you won't pretend that writers have it easy. Just look at Huckleberry Finn. And the author even warned people not to read the book the way they do.does that cross the line??Depends on the depiction. I actually have a very liberal standard for free speech. Of course, that also includes people giving their perceptions of the art works that benefit from that standard. For instance, Moby. The thing is that if that is how he feels, then that is how he feels. Eminem could try responding to the charges with an educated, rational response, but such a tactic is either beyond him or not profitable enough.

Anger management classes ... that was a good one.

About the only thing I won't say about Eminem is that he shouldn't be allowed to do it. On the contrary, I think he has every right to make an ass out of himself. And his fans have the right to cheer him on while he does. And I have the right to laugh at the lot of them while they do. It's beautiful how it all works out that way.and the writer of seven didnt have to offend himself at all, because people didnt nag about it like they do with eminemQuite frankly, I'm not sure how to read that. Just tell me the line is or isn't correct as written and I'll try again. But it's easier and saves space to simply say, What?what you are practically saying is that movies/books/music which arent exactly the artists thoughts or opinions or honest, cant be good. of course it can be, fiction is a big genre, not everything has to be autobiographic to be considered goodThat's a larger theory for another day. Specifically, what I was referring to is Eminem's lyrical skill. When I say the lyrics aren't honest, I mean that they don't reflect everything that goes with them. "Margot Kidder" is part of that line because it's close to "bitch getter". So the bitch-getter hid in the bushes like ... and yes, I agree that "Margot Kidder" is a creative joke. But when Margot Kidder was hiding in the bushes ....

I admit that I am also considering a conversation that took place on my end with a friend which you are not privy to, but it followed the same lines. I was trying to get him to explain to me the lyrical "genius" (if you will) of Eminem. He was talking about allegory and representation and all of these ideas I'm very familiar with. But here's a joke for you: Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Jimmy Carter was a Democrat. Sure, it's absurd. And in that sense some people find it funny. But what does one have to do with the other? I'm not even complaining about the term "bitch-getter". I'm pointing out the simplicity of using "Margot Kidder" because it rhymes.

It's not an honest lyric because it depends on a suspension of the facts of Margot Kidder in the context of hiding in the bushes. It's a fine lyric, I suppose, a nifty rhyme. I admit I'm impressed that he pulled it out in the first place, but there are a hundred "bushes" stories between then and now, so why not choose one equally famous that has more relevant significance? Like I noted earlier of the lyric: hiding in the bushes like I'm having a nervous breakdown is most likely not what Eminem was implying.

So what I'm after is that either way I have questions. If his lyrics are honest, I see a couple of problems. Obviously, with the I'm not first bit, but also with the simplistic representation of the Margot Kidder issue. If his lyrics are honest, then such poorly-assembled images are an honest representation of how he sees the world, which is kind of scary to think about if you're one of his fans. If his lyrics aren't honest ... well, so much for the fans.i just took an example with christina aguilera's song, but i can say other things which arent impossible, like britney singing shes not yet a woman, though not a girl, or mariah carey singing she cant live without you, you dont take them so seriously as you do to every word eminem raps about..I still think you're contextually askew. For the record, though, I'm not big on love songs, or "can't-live-without-you". The only plus side is if the performer can actually sing.

But what about those things should I take issue with? Perhaps you could propose a couple of options?that link is fallsIf I'm reading you right, you ought to email Eminem's organization and let them know that they are being falsely represented. It is a legal issue, you know. Unlike Moby, the B&N website is breaking the law. Maybe Eminem will go on down to Barnes & Noble and smack that bitch around some.that link is fallsI always love that idea ... I'm supposed to buy his album. Like the Christian who told me that I shouldn't comment on someone's book unless I've bought it. I always wonder about the people who suggest that I ought to buy something that I have no desire to (Eminem) or that I object to (author of question in the Christian argument).

But if you would just support what you don't want to support, everything would be better ....so thats why you cant say his music is honest, or not honest, or realistic or not, because parts are and parts arent, and some parts are meant to be humour, other parts are dead serious, he mocks the whole world even himself oftenBut is he honest about it?

I mean, he can do it honestly, or as a poseur. Even when he's deliberately being a poseur, is he doing it honestly? Or is he a poseur pretending to be a poseur for credibility's sake? That's a harsh example, but as he moves through the phases, is he doing it honestly?

He's just put himself in a precarious position where answering "yes" or "no" will be each their own Pandora's box.

It's why you don't stoop to the level he did. I say that sympathetically, because it's a hard thing to figure out.

If he wants to make a sincere apology for threatening violence, that would incite a huge reversal of many of my considerations. If, however, he chooses to stand on his position and leave it as part of "the act", well ... whether he does it honestly or not doesn't matter much because either speaks ill of his value.

Literally: that's exactly why one should not do what he did.

And, yes ... it's what bugs me about people supporting his behavior.

Beyond that, Eminem is somebody I don't give a rat's ass about. I don't want him on the soundtrack to a movie I'm seeing, but he must first get better before he gets the dubious honor being someone I won't change the station to avoid. Mind you, it's not the most dubious, either. I mean, I change the station to avoid bad music, not to avoid being offended. But he must first get better before he will be granted an accepting audience in my environment. Oh, well. Britney, Christina, Jessica, Backstreet, N'Sync, Puddle of Mudd, Mudvayne, System of a Down, Kid Rock, Destiny's Child, Papa Roach--he's got good company, I guess ... One thing I will say for Eminem, though: most of the time I don't know who I'm turning off. I'm usually aware of it when it's Eminem. I'll give him credit for that.

And as to your example: You know, Hitler had his moments. Now, before that bugs you too much, let me explain: I'm not drawing a direct comparison to Hitler any more than I would to anyone else I could use in that case. The point I am making is that certain things are common among humans. You should hear me talk about my biological progenitor; it's not kind because I usually only do it if someone brings her up while I'm drinking heavily. Sober, I'm smart enough to duck the topic. But we all have much in common. How often do we as humans recognize each other for those things? It is mostly by what we do to set ourselves apart from one another that we are viewed and judged.

That Marshall has moments of genuine introspection I would never doubt. Nor would I doubt that of you, or of Jesus Christ or of Hitler or of anybody in between. I am, incidentally, glad that he includes them on his albums. But I would hope he's doing it honestly.

You know, I had mentioned Peter Gabriel earlier, but I think that second point I was thinking about might go elsewhere ...

Maybe it went with the production notes.

But it's interesting: listen to a few artists who cut together samples--Moby, Gorillaz, Eminem, Peter Gabriel ....

Where I draw the distinction against Eminem as a musician is well-marked in that list.

Moby is a musician. I'm not big on his style, but everything I hear from him is musical. Eminem engineers sound. There is something to the art of pasting together a bunch of deliberately-created sounds into something that passes for music, but in that sense I point to Peter Gabriel (http://www.petergabriel.com), whose album is finally (after nine years) ready to go. The thing is, we hear five years ago that he was finished collecting sound, and was planning a sound-mosaic album. Well, it's now five years after that and we finally get to hear some of it. And it's subtle. Peter Gabriel is someone who works with both music and sound. Eminem seems much more oriented toward working with sound. The musical part of Eminem's performance seems almost incidental. Gorillaz? Again, there is a combination of music and sound. Damon Albarn is no Peter Gabriel, but we might also think of Del tha Funkee Homosapien, who manages a great deal of musicality even in his own strangely two-dimensional Deltron 3030. At this point, were we in a tavern discussing this over beers, I would simply look at you and say, "Gorillaz ... there's a stylophone solo on the album. Come on. Can Eminem even give me that?"

Given what other people are doing with sound, and what other people are doing with music I stand by two statements specifically: (A) Five short steps to make your own Eminem album, (B) Eminem is scared of real musicians.

I'm out on Limewire and I've just downloaded the first Moby song and first Eminem song I could find; I've heard about equal amounts of each before. I ended up with "Natural Blues" by Moby and "Without Me" by Eminem. Now, please, somebody tell me which Eminem song they would like to promote as a statement of his abilities because I'm seriously hoping this second-rate effort isn't the whole of it.

I mean, I hope that's his sense of humor.

Many people have a word that adequately describes Eminem's "Without Me". It's not a word I use in this context, though, since it carries repercussions for people who have nothing to do with the situation. But today I will use that word because it is the only one that comes to mind. Dude: that song is fucking gay.

I mean, really. I actually resent that use of the word gay. But it sounds ferociously homosexual, diva-arrogant ... it really reminds me of a trannie pageant. The backtrack went beyond "not bad", too, and while it wouldn't have stood as a song by itself, I think the whole atmosphere was dragged down by a pompous, queenie primadonna yelling all over the place.

I'll give Eminem that much: I didn't think he was that bad. Holy shite.

Mind you, I don't like using gay as a dig, but I don't think the word can be applied in any complimentary sense. I mean, even if I was legitimately impressed by the quality of the primadonna bit, I don't think Marshall would appreciate it.

At any rate, I wasn't expecting that.

On that note, I need a cigarette and a few minutes to recover. I feel much better now that it is flushed from my computer.

I am prepared to say that Eminem is a musician insofar as Ed Wood was a director. And that's just a little unkind to Mr Wood.

I do understand, however, how some people could come to like that. It's not entirely a mystery.

But he should have stayed a sideshow, and not tried to make himself the main event.

Anyone can suggest another song. I'll give it another whirl.

Oh, yeah. Moby. Of "Natural Blues": Sure, it's okay. But it's musical and exploratory. With its music. It's lyrics seem almost incidental, there to give the reason to work a distorted vocal into the soundscape. It's hardly pioneering, but it's musical and it's annoyingly catchy.

Cigarette ... cigarette ...

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

There is a BIG difference between criticizing and lieing...Moby says he heard it, Moby gets to say he's heard it. Moby wants to say what he thinks about it, Moby gets to say what he thinks about it. Such as you continue ... If I came onto these boards one day and said,"tiassa is a racist, an anti-semite, and hates atheists.", would that be okay???? I suspect you would be a little angry, and rightfully so...Well, I would worry about it when you put up your reasons for thinking so. If it seemed that you had a legitimate reason, I would answer the charges. If it seemed that you did not, I would simply ask you to provide one. Even if you simply said, as with Moby of Eminem, "I just remember you writing something anti-semitic one day," at least that would give me the option of saying, "Okay, whatever. Let me know when you've got something." And what I would not do is threaten you publicly with violence on a later occasion because of it.As for threatening Moby, it's called testosterone my friend. We have been doing it since grade school, and will continue until we're buried in the ground.That ... uh ... makes it right, doesn't it?

Never mind.Once again, is threatening to hit Moby really that bad????Using a public forum to threaten any violence against an individual for such petty reasons is really that bad. I reserve the right for a President to be an idiot and threaten whomever they want when the time calls for it, but yes, threatening to hit Moby was that bad.People say worse things to others everyday in society(and this board for that matter), since when have we become a country of wimps?[quote]Those things are no more right than Eminem. Though without the privilege of abusing a public forum, many of those threats are a little less wrong.

As to a nation of wimps: what the hell is your problem? What, does it disturb you that people don't walk around threatening each other enough?[quote]I always here people ask "What happend to Rock", and I guess we now know... Would Ozzy Osbourne, Axel Rose, John Lennon, sit and take crap from an overrated DJ like Moby? It's no wonder how all the male Pop and Rock stars are starting to sound like women, we're not allowed to be men anymore.Rock and Roll has nothing to do with Eminem, whose fans have already noted his rapping talent.

Furthermore, I don't recall Ozzy Osbourne or John Lennon openly threatening their critics. Axl Rose? Well? Why do you think he has to stage a "comeback"? Where has he been? Maybe he's been threatening a few people. And geez, even Axl's challenging of Bob Guccione (and a few other people in that song) was more tasteful and appropriate.I guess in your mind tiassa, we need more guys like N'Sync, Backstreet, or O-Town...Mmm. Yes. Me. Who has mentioned payola and criticized poor production values. Are you intentionally missing that?

But since you ask, I think of bands like The Rheostatics, The La's (defunct), Floater, Pearl Jam, Nirvana (defunct), Primal Scream, Wondermints, Steve Earle, Radiohead, Supergrass, Flash Girls, Massive Attack, Monster Magnet, Tanita Tikaram, Portishead, Boiled in Lead, Rufus Wainwright, the one-and-only Brian Wilson, Elvis Costello, Joanne Rand, Nick Drake (RIP), Peter Murphy, My Bloody Valentine (defunct; see also--Primal Scream), Bryan Ferry, David Bowie, Afro-Celt Sound System, Clumsy Lovers, Lick the Tins (defunct), Tool, Soundgarden (defunct), Mudhoney, Queens of the Stone Age (see also--Kyuss, defunct), Liz Phair, PJ Harvey, Screaming Trees (defunct), Mother Love Bone (defunct; RIP; see also--Pearl Jam), Robert Poss (Helmet, Band of Susans), Peter Gabriel, &c.

I'm not much for rap, so I can't give much beyond the couple I listen to. And there was a thread about what happened to R&B--we could always use a soul resurgence. Worldbeat? Well, I know Shankar and the Epidemics rock. I've heard Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan's son (I can't remember his name ...) perform; I wouldn't mind hearing that on the radio. Blues? Lavelle White, Pinetop Perkins, the list could go on for a while, but I'm not an expert on blues. Folk? Greg Brown comes to mind, but so do the aforementioned Boiled in Lead and Flash Girls. There is a lot of good folk out there, but I usually hear it on local public radio and frankly, I forget who I listen to.Also, how is saying "I'm not afraid to hit a man with glasses", a horrible threat. Aren't you overreacting just a bit?It's a threat of violence. It's inappropriate and pointless. Furthermore, it does seem symptomatic of the Eminem mentality. What's the bottom end of inappropriate threats, then, permanent injury?I don't see why you would, I said i disagree with it.If I knew exactly what you were saying here, I might have a response. As such, though ... But it seemed an important point, a stand-alone. So I didn't want to ignore it.I not sure I understand your point here.There are people here defending his lyrics and talking about his artistic statement. I just thought that point was relevant.You need to get out more then...Yes, I'm sure I do. I know, I'll drop some E, go down to the nearest club, shake my booty to some Eminem, and suddenly I'll love his music.I see 40 year old White guys, 50 year old women, listening and appreciating Eminem's songs. I see college students, business men, engineers, and housewives listening to his music.My mother used to like Poison. I made the mistake of telling her the lyrics of what she was listening to.

Besides, nobody's going to say that Eminem doesn't have value as a dirty joke. I believe one of the links I posted includes that very sentiment.The reason Eminem's album is sitting atop the charts for weeks is that all types of people like his music. We understand that his music is parody.I'll accept that. I'm also willing to bet you cash, right now, that when the latest payola scandal gets ripped open, Eminem will be among those who reaped the benefits of restricting consumer choice. The reason people hear Eminem's music on the radio in order to like it in the first place is that the airtime is bought. Other bands around the country don't have that resource available to them.

Don't get me wrong: Some of my favorites have probably benefitted from payola. I would be foolish not to think so. But when Eminem was unknown to the consumers in general, he received specific financial support from his label in the form of payola money to the radio stations. It's why you only ever hear a certain range of new songs on the radio. The Top 40 stations in Seattle are all bought. The "alternative" station is, too.Why do you think he's scared of "real musicians"???He DID respond in the studio, and mentioned Moby in one of his songs. Perhaps you need to listen to the music before you slam it.If a witty lyric is the whole of his "studio" response, I hold my point valid.

A proper studio response would be a full unleashing of Marshall's musical genius.

Like Lennon with Dylan. Lennon didn't like something Dylan did with his fame, so he wrote a song about it, so goes the story. And "Serve Yourself" turns out to be a hell of a song. Yoko Ono got pissed at the state of women in society and wrote "Woman is the Nigger of the World", one of the most powerful commentaries in all of popular music.

Getting around to Moby as a point of order in business as usual is hardly any proper response. Rather, if Eminem resents Moby's comments enough to publicly react, he ought to either transcend clever irony or else raise his clever irony as such to a new level.BTW- What work has Moby done, that outclasses him over Eminem????Well, barring any direct suggestions, I went out and downloaded two songs today, just for the hell of it. Moby's "Natural Blues" and Eminem's "Without Me". See my post to Justme for the skinny on that; I'd rather not live that moment again.

But Moby's song was musical in a simple way that Eminem's was not. Moby's song moved through its keys to be sure, but Eminem's was constructed of a bunch of "hooks".

There used to be (and still might be) a magazine called Circus. Now, for those who read GFTPM, well, they can have a laugh at this. In the back of Circus there were usually between two and four articles on various songs. The two consistent articles were for guitar and drum, and usually analyzed four or eight bars of disparate songs. (Rarely were the analyses coordinated in any way.) There were also bass and keyboard articles from time to time. The thing is that if I had the whole catalog of Circus analyses in front of me, I could probably build an entire Lp out of those leads, fills, and hooks, and it could be very hard for any one person to figure out what exactly they were hearing. Listen to almost any 1980's metal-pop song. The hooks stand out like neon.

Eminem's song was similarly constructed: a bunch of hooks strung together, backed by drum machines. It's a great formula for scoring hits, but it doesn't require a tremendous amount of technical skill or musicianship when you have a label like his.

It is, I admit, a far cry better than manufactured franchise bands, but since you seem to think that's the only alternative to Eminem, well, I can see why you choose Marshall.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Damn it tiassa, everytime I get out, you pull me back in...:D

Originally posted by tiassa
Moby says he heard it, Moby gets to say he's heard it. Moby wants to say what he thinks about it, Moby gets to say what he thinks about it. Such as you continue ...

As I said before, Moby lied and was talking out of his ass. The only reason I even got into this thread was because I felt people needed to know this.

He has a right to say whatever he thinks about, BUT not to spread lies about other artists.

Well, I would worry about it when you put up your reasons for thinking so. If it seemed that you had a legitimate reason, I would answer the charges. If it seemed that you did not, I would simply ask you to provide one. Even if you simply said, as with Moby of Eminem, "I just remember you writing something anti-semitic one day," at least that would give me the option of saying, "Okay, whatever. Let me know when you've got something." And what I would not do is threaten you publicly with violence on a later occasion because of it.

Eminem answered Moby in song, and has denied being homophobic. Elton John has heard his music, and is a friend with Eminem and also says he's not anti-gay. He has done exactly what you said you would do in his situation. Is the whole reason for your rant, the words that Eminem said to Moby (when Moby was booing) at the VMAs?

That ... uh ... makes it right, doesn't it?

Never mind.

"Does it make it right" you ask, maybe. Trash talking is something we do all the time, and isn't the same as a threat. Saying "I will.., hit a man with glasses", isn't the same as saying "I'm going to hit you Moby".

Your bashing Eminem over a trash talking comment on a guy who was booing him, while he was accepting an award.

Using a public forum to threaten any violence against an individual for such petty reasons is really that bad. I reserve the right for a President to be an idiot and threaten whomever they want when the time calls for it, but yes, threatening to hit Moby was that bad.

He never threatened to hit Moby. He said he would hit a man with glasses (why do I feel I'm repeating myself;) ), that is hardly a threat, it's more trash talking than anything else.

And Moby is the one who was booing Eminem while he accepted an award, (why haven't you called him out for that).

It's a threat of violence. It's inappropriate and pointless. Furthermore, it does seem symptomatic of the Eminem mentality. What's the bottom end of inappropriate threats, then, permanent injury?

NO, it's trash talking, he didn't attack Moby physically, and only answered his booing.

Yes, I'm sure I do. I know, I'll drop some E, go down to the nearest club, shake my booty to some Eminem, and suddenly I'll love his music.

LMAO! I think you missed the point I was making.

My mother used to like Poison. I made the mistake of telling her the lyrics of what she was listening to.

Besides, nobody's going to say that Eminem doesn't have value as a dirty joke. I believe one of the links I posted includes that very sentiment.

Poison has lyrics??:D

Eminem's music is not a dirty joke, at least not to any of his fans I know. As I said, it's about SATIRE and PARODY of our society.

I'll accept that. I'm also willing to bet you cash, right now, that when the latest payola scandal gets ripped open, Eminem will be among those who reaped the benefits of restricting consumer choice. The reason people hear Eminem's music on the radio in order to like it in the first place is that the airtime is bought. Other bands around the country don't have that resource available to them.

I'm well aware of this. But Eminem was respected before he came out on his own. He was known in the Hip Hop underground for years before he made it big.

If a witty lyric is the whole of his "studio" response, I hold my point valid.

A proper studio response would be a full unleashing of Marshall's musical genius.

Like Lennon with Dylan. Lennon didn't like something Dylan did with his fame, so he wrote a song about it, so goes the story. And "Serve Yourself" turns out to be a hell of a song. Yoko Ono got pissed at the state of women in society and wrote "Woman is the Nigger of the World", one of the most powerful commentaries in all of popular music.

Getting around to Moby as a point of order in business as usual is hardly any proper response. Rather, if Eminem resents Moby's comments enough to publicly react, he ought to either transcend clever irony or else raise his clever irony as such to a new level.

Did you know that Eminem has answered MANY artists before musically. He answered rappers like Canibus, and Jermaine Dupri. He answered Christina Agrilera(who FIRST talke about him on MTV) musically. He has answered Insane Clown Posse, and Limp Biscuit musically. He never threatened them, as a matter of fact, he was respectful to Agrilera at the VMAs, even though she was the one who handed him the award.

Did you also say Yoko Ono had one of the most powerful commentaries in all of popular music???????????? Maybe that was a typo..:D

Well, barring any direct suggestions, I went out and downloaded two songs today, just for the hell of it. Moby's "Natural Blues" and Eminem's "Without Me". See my post to Justme for the skinny on that; I'd rather not live that moment again.

But Moby's song was musical in a simple way that Eminem's was not. Moby's song moved through its keys to be sure, but Eminem's was constructed of a bunch of "hooks".


You should check out "Guilty Conscience" - which satires and reflects the moral thinking of many in our society today.

Listen to "Stan" - that covers the very thing you seem to despise.., Eminem fans, and shows how taking his lyrics literally can lead to disaster. Here is the last verses of this song, where Eminem is writing a letter back to his crazed fan...
Dear Stan, I meant to write you sooner but I just been busy
You said your girlfriend's pregnant now, how far along is she?
Look, I'm really flattered you would call your daughter that
and here's an autograph for your brother,
I wrote it on the Starter cap
I'm sorry I didn't see you at the show, I musta missed you
Don't think I did that shit intentionally just to diss you
But what's this shit you said about you like to cut your wrists too?
I say that shit just clownin dogg,
c'mon - how fucked up is you?
You got some issues Stan, I think you need some counseling
to help your ass from bouncing off the walls when you get down some
And what's this shit about us meant to be together?
That type of shit'll make me not want us to meet each other
I really think you and your girlfriend need each other
or maybe you just need to treat her better
I hope you get to read this letter, I just hope it reaches you in time
before you hurt yourself, I think that you'll be doin just fine
if you relax a little, I'm glad I inspire you but Stan
why are you so mad? Try to understand, that I do want you as a fan
I just don't want you to do some crazy shit
I seen this one shit on the news a couple weeks ago that made me sick
Some dude was drunk and drove his car over a bridge
and had his girlfriend in the trunk, and she was pregnant with his kid
and in the car they found a tape, but they didn't say who it was to
Come to think about, his name was.. it was you
Damn!


A song from his current album you should check out is "Cleaning out my Closet", which tells why he hates his Mother and the things she has done to him. It may give you alot of insight as to who he is, and where his views are coming from.

None of Moby's music, in my opinion, has much meaning. Eminem's does.:cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
Rock and Roll has nothing to do with Eminem, whose fans have already noted his rapping talent.

I have an article that says what I think on this perfectly.

Eminem is out there fighting the good fight, saving rock 'n' roll. That's right, saving rock 'n' roll. How is that, you ask?
Rock 'n' roll is about not giving a fuck. Eminem certainly does not give a fuck. Just read any interview, listen to his music, or go see him live. He does what he does because he loves it, because he wants to speak his mind, and to battle his own demons (as well as to make himself wealthy). To quote Eminem, "Hey, there's a concept that works."

That, to me, is the essence of rock 'n' roll. With every radio format playing the same cookie-cutter pop and hard rock bands day in and day out, those annoying groups that manufacture angst and turbulence to sell records, something, or someone, needed to come along and shake things up. Otherwise, rock 'n' roll would die a slow death.

There are plenty of great bands below the radar helping to preserve the dignity of rock 'n' roll. Check out The Queens of the Stone Age and ...You Will Know Us By The Trail of Dead, two bands that will be touring together this fall. Both bands are signed to major labels and deliver essential listening for any fan of true-to-form rock 'n' roll. And both bands embody the spirit of rock 'n' roll. The same spirit that drives, or rather haunts, Eminem.

However, Eminem is selling millions upon millions of records, whereas Trail of Dead and Queens of the Stone Age are selling a small fraction of that.

I can hear you now. "Shut up you idiot, Eminem is a rapper. Trail of Dead and Queens of the Stone Age are rock bands". I'm sure I'll get plenty of e-mails stating something to that affect, though knowing some of you out there, you who have e-mailed me before to 'comment' on my reviews, it will probably be a lot harsher.

My reply is simple. Have you listened to his new album?

The Eminem Show is a rock 'n' roll album disguising itself as rap. Layers upon layers of production, noise, and screaming, along with Eminem's trademark lyrical wit and rhyming skills, make it a record that far exceeds anything going on in rap today. For that matter, it far exceeds the current offerings of 'modern rock' bands.

The first verse of "White America", the first song on The Eminem Show, poetically sums up the concept of the album:

I never would've dreamed in a million years I'd see, so many motherfuckin' people who feel like me/ Who share the same views and the same exact beliefs, it's like a fuckin' army marchin' in back of me/ So many lives I touch, so much anger aimed in no particular direction, just sprays and sprays/ Straight through your radio waves it plays and plays, till it stays stuck in your head for days and days.

It's been years since anyone has come along and truly shocked the nation. Elvis Presley did it, bringing rock 'n' roll to a whole new level. His provocative hip-shake wasn't allowed on TV; the Ed Sullivan Show filmed him from the waist up. The goal was to curb the chaos that was rising over Presley and his music - and rock 'n' roll.

It only elevated the power of rock 'n' roll and the will of those who listen to the music.

KISS came along and once again rocked the nation, with their make-up and loud anthems. Soccer moms everywhere united to put an end to the "Knights in Satan's Service". KISS reassured rebellious youth that rock 'n' roll was their escape, their way of getting out of the oppression that comes with being young, and their chance to express themselves when people wouldn't listen. "Give me a mic, show me where the mother fucking studio is at," Eminem asserts in "White America".

There are others, of course. But there hasn't been one in a long time. Take away the make-up and "scary" colored contacts from Marilyn Manson and you have another cookie-cutter rock band rehashing something that has been done before. Ever heard of Alice Cooper?

On this level, something needed to happen. There always has been bands on the verge of breaking that never got their chance or that succumbed to label and management pressures, selling their artistic souls in order to sell records. It's a bottom-line game, I understand that, and so do the artists. So they give in and become something they didn't originally set out to be, and end up becoming very successful at it.

Then you have the underground bands that shape and influence the stars of tomorrow, garnering influential status years after their demise. The Replacements and Husker Du, to name a few, kept the idea of rock 'n' roll alive throughout the 80's, when cheesy keyboard pop and hair metal were what was selling.

The Replacements and Husker Du never sold millions of records, but they influenced those who went on to sell millions of records. If it wasn't for The Replacements, a little kid named Kurt Cobain may have never got the confidence to believe he could pick up a guitar and sing songs about the world as he saw it. Cobain would later go on to form Nirvana and change the scene of commercial radio and send major labels into a signing spree to find another rock band as compelling as Nirvana - that would sell as many records as Nirvana.

Granted, Nirvana wasn't controversial. They did, however, make it on their own terms and go from being just another garage band to a multi-platinum selling band capable of packing arenas worldwide. They then opened the door to shove out all the hair metal bands as radio replaced their playlists with three-chord punk-inspired rock.

Eminem, with his rock 'n' roll soul, whether he knows it or not, is opening the door for radio to change, and this change is crucial to the survival of rock 'n' roll in years to come. After all, if The Replacements hadn't influenced Nirvana, who in turn blew up and reached a mass audience, thus influencing countless bands to come, Poison and Ratt's influences may have made a huge impact. Pearl Jam may have never made it on the radio, nor would have Stone Temple Pilots. The domino effect continues and radio today, and music, would be in a much more dire situation.

The fact is, Eminem is a very angry young man. As he has stated in countless interviews, he needs therapy - and lots of it - but he is afraid that if he takes therapy his edge will be gone. Take the edge from the Goo Goo Dolls and you have a multi-million selling pop band that forgot their punk-rock roots. Take the edge from Eminem and you have a skinny white boy with a troubling past rapping about all his money and girls he's slept with, his fancy cars, and his big house. Sound like every other rapper out there?

No, Eminem's honesty and I-don't-give-a-fuck attitude - his rock 'n' roll spirit - is what is going to save us from the likes of Limp Bizkit and their offspring. His attitude, his ability to make it on his own terms, anger intact, is what is going to catapult the music business into a better place within a few years. The wheels are in motion now. His presence has been felt.

The music industry is in a slump. Overall music sales are down 3% over last year, which was down from the year before. It is a perpetual spiral that could have continued to worsen if someone didn't come along and make waves. Nirvana did it with their music and insight; Eminem does it with his perception and controversy, taking the two things he could use to better music, and using the power for good.

Eminem isn't without his flaws. His records seem to live up to the honor I am bestowing on him, the honor of saving rock 'n' roll. His live shows certainly do not.

On the recent Anger Management Tour, Eminem did nothing but disappoint. From lip-synching to his own music, to allowing several other prominent rappers to rap along with him, much of the time overpowering Eminem in the mix, virtually destroying the credibility of the songs, Eminem became a run-of-the-mill rapper.

His show was overrun by eye candy, mindless indulgence for the mass public still feeding themselves on the bland and lifeless music that has taken control of the airwaves.

If Eminem can reach just one kid - JUST ONE - and that kid in turn uses the philosophy of Eminem to create music that is true to itself and has something to say, Eminem will have earned the honor.

We need to understand that Eminem is now more than a musician. He is an entertainer. He is paid to entertain, and, so it goes, his live show must be fun and frills-driven. That is how he affords to continue his pursuit, to continue his agenda, battling his demons and speaking his mind, inadvertently saving rock 'n' roll.

When he says, "20 million other white rappers emerge. But no matter how many fish in the sea, it'd be so empty without me," Eminem speaks the truth. There are bound to be imitators following in his footsteps. There were imitators that followed in Nirvana's footsteps, major labels approving, if not breeding, the lies, offering money for those that wanted to step up. It led to radio and music being in the state that it is in.

We can't reply on the music industry to learn their lessons, either. That is why, now that Eminem is bigger than The Beatles (at least for now), major labels will be in pursuit, looking for the next Eminem. Let me tell you now, there will never be another Eminem. There will never be another Nirvana. And there will never be another KISS. What we can hope for, what we need, is someone to understand, someone to take something from what Eminem has done, and continue to carry the torch of honesty and musical integrity. Eminem has done his part. He's saved rock 'n' roll.


http://www.inmusicwetrust.com/articles/52f03.html

It is, I admit, a far cry better than manufactured franchise bands, but since you seem to think that's the only alternative to Eminem, well, I can see why you choose Marshall.
LOL! I love MANY types of music. You should read my thoughts here, http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10658.

So what? Eminem could have won that public spat if he'd just done it in the studio. Again, point me to the lyric, but beyond that, he chose to bring it out of the studio and keep the fire burning.
i see you keep on talking about eminem responding in the studio, but you never said anything about that moby should have started it in the studio or respond back to what eminem said in the song in the studio. moby was the one choosing it to take it out of the studio. and like static76 said, eminem is known for responding in the studio, all those people static76 named and he forgot everlast (eminem made 2 whole diss songs especially for him :p ) and dj lethal...and i totally agree on what static76 said about the sentence '' i will hit a man with glasses'. he got booed at, and felt he needed to say something about it, so he said that. it wasnt smart, but you can overreact the whole thing. Moby is a musician. I'm not big on his style, but everything I hear from him is musical. Eminem engineers sound. There is something to the art of pasting together a bunch of deliberately-created sounds into something that passes for music, but in that sense I point to Peter Gabriel, whose album is finally (after nine years) ready to go. The thing is, we hear five years ago that he was finished collecting sound, and was planning a sound-mosaic album. Well, it's now five years after that and we finally get to hear some of it. And it's subtle. Peter Gabriel is someone who works with both music and sound. Eminem seems much more oriented toward working with sound. The musical part of Eminem's performance seems almost incidental. Gorillaz? Again, there is a combination of music and sound. Damon Albarn is no Peter Gabriel, but we might also think of Del tha Funkee Homosapien, who manages a great deal of musicality even in his own strangely two-dimensional Deltron 3030. At this point, were we in a tavern discussing this over beers, I would simply look at you and say, "Gorillaz ... there's a stylophone solo on the album. Come on. Can Eminem even give me that?"
first of all, i dont feel the need to compare eminem or moby, because they both make very different sort of music. im sure if moby tried to rap he couldnt do it like eminem, and im sure if eminem would try to make mobys music, he wouldnt be able to do it as moby. but they both are respected artists. peter gabriel is very different kind of music than eminem. i like peter gabriel too, but its just not comparable to rap. thats a whole different thing. Many people have a word that adequately describes Eminem's "Without Me". It's not a word I use in this context, though, since it carries repercussions for people who have nothing to do with the situation. But today I will use that word because it is the only one that comes to mind. Dude: that song is fucking gay.
first of all, you downloaded the wrong song, to really hear what eminem is about. the one static76 said are indeed very good songs. i think its very funny you dare to use the word 'gay' while if eminem would use that word in his songs, he would get shit from everyone. My mother used to like Poison. I made the mistake of telling her the lyrics of what she was listening to.
my mom loves eminem. and she does know the lyrics, we talk about it, and i give her the lyrics to read while the song is playing. But if I missed the lyric, I would ask you to provide it. After all, the lyric is as close as I'm going to get to music in this case
in the end you are just like moby. never heard one song of eminem, but then again think that you know everything about him and his songs. even just reading the lyrics can give you a wrong idea of eminem, because you wont hear when he's joking or not. i dont mind you not listening to eminem, and im not saying go out and buy it, but at least before talking things about him and his lyrics, take the time to listen to his albums, and look at some interviews of him. because in the interviews he explains a lot about his music and you will see he's a very calm, smart and reasonable person. if he would have been known for beating up his wife, raping girls, killing people or whatever things some people think he's capable of because he raps about it, i would be the last to buy his albums and support him as an artist. but it is only music.

like static76 said, eminem was known in the hiphopunderground for a long time, before he really made it big when dr. dre found out about him. last thing i want to point out is that eminem is one of the best freestylers in the rap scene. he done this since he was very young, entered in competitions, and this made him known in the underground too.

As I said before, Moby lied and was talking out of his ass. The only reason I even got into this thread was because I felt people needed to know this.

He has a right to say whatever he thinks about, BUT not to spread lies about other artists.Nope ... Moby may be right. Two people I know share a memory with me. The thing is that I'm quite like Moby on this one: you'll have to excuse us for not being so obsessed with Eminem to have written this one down, along with the date and time. I think that's why you're so pissed at Moby, because he wasn't so slobberingly obsessed with Eminem as to have written it down at the time. But I did have the opportunity to mention this debate to a couple of friends and I can tell you this: I have, before, sitting in front of the TV, and saying: "Did he just say that? Was that what I thought I heard?" I have the slightest sliver of a memory of thinking, "That could be taken as anti-Semitic." I think that, on Moby's part, it would be a thin platform for public criticism, but I haven't heard Marshall say "Moby's wrong, I don't do those things and every word of it is untrue." I've heard arrogance and threats. That's why I say Moby gets to say he's heard it. I'm pretty sure that if we raided the whole catalog of Eminem's recorded words, Moby would find justified.

The thing is that I'm not entirely sure Moby is lying. You can say it's a lie, but realize, all he had to hear was approximately two words, maybe even one, come out of Eminem's mouth, out of all of his press coverage up to that point.

I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days trying to figure out what the hell Marshall actually said that day that caught my attention.

If Moby has slandered Eminem--if there is no shred of anti-Semitism to be found--then why not obtain a legal decision to prove your point? After all, Eminem can embarrass Moby in court and then make Moby pay for it. On the other hand, I think Marshall knows he's said enough in the past for Moby to be allowed to say this without slandering him. I think that is why Eminem is so pissed that he has to threaten.

And it's why I say he's scared of real musicians: real musicians have a certain scope of vision and bear a certain credibility that Eminem doesn't. Think of it this way: when the press comes to talk to Eminem, they want to talk about what people see, and the character of the show. When the press talks to Moby or other musicians, they want to talk about music. Ever read Mojo or Q magazines? Hell, they can probably be sued for libel for the things they've written about Eminem, and they haven't chosen to waste a whole lot of page space on him. Lyricists are appreciated in the music press, but if that's all you've got, you will catch some shite. If Marshall could sing, well, that would be one thing, but he can't, so he's looked upon almost like a boy band in the sense that his appeal is sheerly a novelty. Mind you, one of the reasons I've got a poor opinion of his fans is I still don't see how being sexy or "telling it like it is" makes him a good musician. As with boy bands and sexy-diva radio pop, Eminem is a performer, and he does seem very adept at getting attention. Is the whole reason for your rant, the words that Eminem said to Moby (when Moby was booing) at the VMAs?In general. Most days I find Eminem to be a stupid punk not worth devoting any thought to. But I'm getting sick of your pathetic targeting of Moby. Eminem was being booed by more people than that. Rather than learning what to say and not to say, he chose to threaten Moby. Perhaps Marshall shouldn't go around acting like a renegade hormone so often. Oooh, Moby was booing Eminem! I find it hilarious that Eminem's fans will defend the act of threatening violence merely because Marshall is too stupid to figure out any other way to express himself. It doesn't do much to augment my perception of his fans.Saying "I will.., hit a man with glasses", isn't the same as saying "I'm going to hit you Moby"I believe you're really reaching here. Are you denying he was talking to Moby? Are you denying that he said, "Keep talking, I will hit a man with glasses"?Your bashing Eminem over a trash talking comment on a guy who was booing him, while he was accepting an award.Oh, so it's just "trash talk", and not a threat? In that case, keep talking little woman, I will hit a dumbass. (And remember, you can't complain that I threatened you because it's just trash talk. And I might just keep that part of it up for a few days, just for kicks. After all, we trash-talk each other at this forum all the time. So keep talking, indeed. Keep defending that violence because you're also empowering me to conduct myself that way.He never threatened to hit Moby. He said he would hit a man with glasses (why do I feel I'm repeating myself ), that is hardly a threat, it's more trash talking than anything else.So in other words, unlike everyone else who witnessed the moment, you're too stupid to know who he was talking to? After all, I will beat the fuck out of a dumbass. And remember, you can't complain because you can't prove I'm aiming that at you.

So just keep talking, little woman. I will beat a dumbass.NO, it's trash talking, he didn't attack Moby physically, and only answered his booing.Keep talking, little woman. I will shoot a dumbass.LMAO! I think you missed the point I was makingYou're right. I think I'll drop some E, go down to the nearest club, shake my booty to some Eminem, and then I'll go out on the street and "trash-talk" some faggots.

Keep talking, little faggot. I will shoot a faggot.

Oh, what? Am I getting just a little bit offensive yet? I hope so.Eminem's music is not a dirty joke, at least not to any of his fans I know. As I said, it's about SATIRE and PARODY of our society.Well, now ... it seems the foot is on the other leg ... er, wait.

At any rate, go back and read those articles. What, are you going to accuse the author of lying about Eminem's fans?

It seems the next logical step.

Keep talking, little paranoiac. I will shoot a retard.

(Are you tired of it yet?)But Eminem was respected before he came out on his own. He was known in the Hip Hop underground for years before he made it big.Well, duh. If he could have "made it big" on his own, without the payola help, he would have.Did you know that Eminem has answered MANY artists before musically. He answered rappers like Canibus, and Jermaine Dupri. He answered Christina Agrilera(who FIRST talke about him on MTV) musically. He has answered Insane Clown Posse, and Limp Biscuit musicallyMusically or lyrically? I'm not sure mots of Eminem's fans understand the difference.Did you also say Yoko Ono had one of the most powerful commentaries in all of popular music???????????? Maybe that was a typo..You've never heard Woman is the Nigger of the World?

The thing is that shock rock is old. When I think of those who criticized Alice Cooper's Raped and Freezing, I laugh at them. It's a harsh title, I admit, but it's a funny song. You see, when the critics criticized that song, he didn't threaten them. He just said, "lighten up, from what I can tell you have the song backwards". After all, that's a guy sprinting naked into Chihuahua.

But if Eminem wants his commentaries to be taken legitimately at all, he's going to have to get better at it. Far better artists than he are forgotten in their efforts. I would hope his commentaries have some sort of sincerity behind them. After all, it's a pretty grim world he's casting, and if bitching about it is all he can do, well, so be it.You should check out "Guilty Conscience" - which satires and reflects the moral thinking of many in our society today.I'll give it a whirl.You should check out "Guilty Conscience" - which satires and reflects the moral thinking of many in our society today.I hope it's better than Papa Roach's aggravation at fathers.You should check out "Guilty Conscience" - which satires and reflects the moral thinking of many in our society today.Music or lyrics?

Keep screwing that up. I will stomp a moron's ass into a mudhole.

Now then, whatever the fuck your stupid perceptual problem is, you can take it and fuck it yourself. You can put the attitude up your ass and lick it. Matter of fact, you can get down on your knees and be my urinal and I might just feel better about your living worth.

Keep on babbling, zombie. I will knock the hell out of a dead-eyed idiot.

Wow ... a new level of trash-talk.

Thank you for making it possible, Static76. Thank you very much.

And I don't want to hear a word of complaint from other posters, from moderators, or from our dear Porfiry.

It's just trash-talk, right? It's not actually threatening.

So keep whining twit. I will hit the stupid.

--Tiassa :cool:

Tiassa?!?:eek: Im shocked!

haven't heard Marshall say "Moby's wrong, I don't do those things and every word of it is untrue."
moby is not the first to have said this..actually i think moby just heard about eminem through other complainers and he just copied what they said, without researching it himself..eminem have explained in interviews and responded back often enough about all his lyrics and all the criticism, so really why repeat all of that again? i think he figured he did enough explaining and got to tired of it with someone starting the whole thing all over again..

Nope ... Moby may be right. Two people I know share a memory with me. The thing is that I'm quite like Moby on this one: you'll have to excuse us for not being so obsessed with Eminem to have written this one down, along with the date and time. I think that's why you're so pissed at Moby, because he wasn't so slobberingly obsessed with Eminem as to have written it down at the time. But I did have the opportunity to mention this debate to a couple of friends and I can tell you this: I have, before, sitting in front of the TV, and saying: "Did he just say that? Was that what I thought I heard?" I have the slightest sliver of a memory of
thinking, "That could be taken as anti-Semitic."
ok so your point that moby is right, is proven by one little bitty memory you think you have, but not sure of?? yea great proof you have there, you better come with better things first before accusing someone of being a racist, anti-semitic or homophobic.

Well, duh. If he could have "made it big" on his own, without the payola help, he would have
eminem have made it big on his own in a way..he kept on signing in to competitions and making demo tapes, which eventually ended up with dr. dre who saw he got real talents...eminem was so broke at the time, that he wouldnt have had the money to get himself big, you need money for this because you need promotion, a good studio to record your things in and so on, so you really need to be signed for this..promotion will only do you good in the end if you have talent, because i can make my own music and get it played on the radio but i doubt anyone will keep buying it for years and years to come if i dont have talents at all. And you keep forgetting (to your convenience i think), he was a very respected underground rapper in detroit and had fans there without even any promotion or record deal whatsoever..
And it's why I say he's scared of real musicians: real musicians have a certain scope of vision and bear a certain credibility that Eminem doesn't. Think of it this way: when the press comes to talk to Eminem, they want to talk about what people see, and the character of the show. When the press talks to Moby or other musicians, they want to talk about music. Ever read Mojo or Q magazines? Hell, they can probably be sued for libel for the things they've written about Eminem, and they haven't chosen to waste a whole lot of page space on him. Lyricists are appreciated in the music press, but if that's all you've got, you will catch some shite. If Marshall could sing, well, that would be one thing, but he can't, so he's looked upon almost like a boy band in the sense that his appeal is sheerly a novelty. Mind you, one of the reasons I've got a poor opinion of his fans is I still don't see how being sexy or "telling it like it is" makes him a good musician. As with boy bands and sexy-diva radio pop, Eminem is a performer, and he does seem very adept at getting attention.
have you ever read the magazine rolling stone?? sorry i havent ever read those magazines you told me about, because i dont live in the usa (i live in holland) so we got different magazines here:) And no eminem doesnt sing (although he tries in the song hailie's song for his daughter) because he RAPS!! duhhh:p. and magazines write about his music all the time more than about moby. but well if you like moby or eminem, is just a matter of TASTE, dont like him dont listen to him, its all fine by me, but he got talents as a RAPPER, yes not as a singer hahah that was just hilarious, made my day:D
Nope ... Moby may be right. Two people I know share a memory with me. The thing is that I'm quite like Moby on this one: you'll have to excuse us for not being so obsessed with Eminem to have written this one down, along with the date and time. I think that's why you're so pissed at Moby, because he wasn't so slobberingly obsessed with Eminem as to have written it down at the time.
lol sorry im not so obsessed about eminem that i can give you full out written pages of his interviews that i heard to proove you otherwise...but im sure i seen a lot more about eminem than you, so..i just go with my own ideas on this;) oh yea and im not one of those girls that think eminem is sooo hot and thats why i buy his albums or that i seen this guys face on tv and thought hey everyone thinks he's great, i have to buy this because the rest of the world does..actually first after hearing several singles of him i didnt like him at all, until i heard the song 'the way i am', and after that 'stan', i thought: this guy really got some talents, so they seem to be right about this particular case. And i wouldnt even really care if he wouldnt make his own beats, i really cant be bothered if this even was the case, i just totally love his lyrics, and his ways to get me to think and make me laugh..

tiassa you always seem to make my posts so much longer, while i never meant to talk so much, but with you i just keep going and going, well its fun:p

Originally posted by tiassa
Nope ... Moby may be right. Two people I know share a memory with me. The thing is that I'm quite like Moby on this one: you'll have to excuse us for not being so obsessed with Eminem to have written this one down, along with the date and time. I think that's why you're so pissed at Moby, because he wasn't so slobberingly obsessed with Eminem as to have written it down at the time. But I did have the opportunity to mention this debate to a couple of friends and I can tell you this: I have, before, sitting in front of the TV, and saying: "Did he just say that? Was that what I thought I heard?" I have the slightest sliver of a memory of thinking, "That could be taken as anti-Semitic." I think that, on Moby's part, it would be a thin platform for public criticism, but I haven't heard Marshall say "Moby's wrong, I don't do those things and every word of it is untrue." I've heard arrogance and threats. That's why I say Moby gets to say he's heard it. I'm pretty sure that if we raided the whole catalog of Eminem's recorded words, Moby would find justified.

The thing is that I'm not entirely sure Moby is lying. You can say it's a lie, but realize, all he had to hear was approximately two words, maybe even one, come out of Eminem's mouth, out of all of his press coverage up to that point.

I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days trying to figure out what the hell Marshall actually said that day that caught my attention.


First, I'm not pissed at Moby, as you stated. I could care less whether you or "your firends" like his music either.

My problem is that Moby LIED about Eminem when interviewed, and said he was anti-semetic, racist, and homophobic. All of which are LIES.

Please tell me where Eminem has ever said anything about Jews, you can't because he hasn't.

Please tell me how he is racist. Most of his friends are Black, and I have never even heard someone suggest this. If Eminem ever said anything racist, the Hip Hop community would be all over him. Does Moby know something we don't?????

As for him being anti-gay, he has constantly denied this and Elton John (who is no friend of homophobes), says he not homophobic. Since you missed it, here's his comments again:

John is no stranger to sensitivity, but some might see such sentiment as contrasting somewhat with his ringing endorsement of controversial rapper Eminem, with whom John performed "Stan" at last year's Grammy Awards. Not only does John continue to praise the foul-mouthed superstar, he condemns the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, which vehemently protested Eminem's The Marshall Mathers LP (2000).

"I think they are a bunch of a--holes, sorry guys," John said. "I wouldn't have [worked with him] if he was homophobic, and if he was he wouldn't have asked me."
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/14...005/story.jhtml

You seem to be talking out of your ass now tiassa. You say your "pretty sure that if we raided the whole catalog of Eminem's recorded words, Moby would find justified". So in other words, you have NEVER heard anything from Eminem backing up your comments either...

In general. Most days I find Eminem to be a stupid punk not worth devoting any thought to. But I'm getting sick of your pathetic targeting of Moby. Eminem was being booed by more people than that. Rather than learning what to say and not to say, he chose to threaten Moby. Perhaps Marshall shouldn't go around acting like a renegade hormone so often. Oooh, Moby was booing Eminem! I find it hilarious that Eminem's fans will defend the act of threatening violence merely because Marshall is too stupid to figure out any other way to express himself. It doesn't do much to augment my perception of his fans.

"My pathetic targeting of Moby"????????

I see now, tiassa. In your eyes, it is wrong to give people the whole story of what happened between Eminem and Moby. I should just call him a punk (like you just did), and talk about how dumb his fans are..:rolleyes:

I never said I condone what Eminem did at the VMA (it was lame in my opinion), but to say "he threatened violence", is an overreaction. He was trash talking to a guy who was booing him, that's it.

I believe you're really reaching here. Are you denying he was talking to Moby? Are you denying that he said, "Keep talking, I will hit a man with glasses"?

No, he said "Keep booing little girl. … I'll hit a man with glasses."

Oh, so it's just "trash talk", and not a threat? In that case, keep talking little woman, I will hit a dumbass. (And remember, you can't complain that I threatened you because it's just trash talk. And I might just keep that part of it up for a few days, just for kicks. After all, we trash-talk each other at this forum all the time. So keep talking, indeed. Keep defending that violence because you're also empowering me to conduct myself that way.

The exact quote doesn't have will in it...I'll sounds more like macho bravado, than a threat.

As for me being hurt by your comments...Go right ahead my friend, although the other posters here may confuse you for an idiot. :)

So in other words, unlike everyone else who witnessed the moment, you're too stupid to know who he was talking to? After all, I will beat the fuck out of a dumbass. And remember, you can't complain because you can't prove I'm aiming that at you.

So just keep talking, little woman. I will beat a dumbass.

*Static's ego is shattered as tiassa calls him stupid*:(

Don't worry, I'm sure your not aiming that at me. My guess is your looking into a mirror as you type.;)

Keep talking, little woman. I will shoot a dumbass.

OH NO!!!!:eek: tiassa is going to shoot Pauly Shore....

You're right. I think I'll drop some E, go down to the nearest club, shake my booty to some Eminem, and then I'll go out on the street and "trash-talk" some faggots.

Keep talking, little faggot. I will shoot a faggot.

Oh, what? Am I getting just a little bit offensive yet? I hope so.

LMAO!!! I thought you already dropped some E, after reading your posts.

Your not offending me at all tiassa, as for the English language...well.., that's another story.

Well, now ... it seems the foot is on the other leg ... er, wait.

At any rate, go back and read those articles. What, are you going to accuse the author of lying about Eminem's fans?

It seems the next logical step.

Keep talking, little paranoiac. I will shoot a retard.

(Are you tired of it yet?)

ONE author's opinion, does not represent the views of those who enjoy Eminem's music.

Did you read the article I gave you, or the posts of others on this board who appreciate Eminem's songs???

Well, duh. If he could have "made it big" on his own, without the payola help, he would have.

You just don't get it, do you. Eminem was known and respected for YEARS in Hip Hop, way before he had his breakout success.

Radio play has help almost ever artist in the past 50 years, so why single Eminem out.

Musically or lyrically? I'm not sure mots of Eminem's fans understand the difference.

:rolleyes: Why don't you state what you feel good music is here..http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10658. Enlighten us with your great wisdom...

Music or lyrics?

Keep screwing that up. I will stomp a moron's ass into a mudhole.

Now then, whatever the fuck your stupid perceptual problem is, you can take it and fuck it yourself. You can put the attitude up your ass and lick it. Matter of fact, you can get down on your knees and be my urinal and I might just feel better about your living worth.

Keep on babbling, zombie. I will knock the hell out of a dead-eyed idiot.

Wow ... a new level of trash-talk.

Thank you for making it possible, Static76. Thank you very much.

And I don't want to hear a word of complaint from other posters, from moderators, or from our dear Porfiry.

It's just trash-talk, right? It's not actually threatening.

So keep whining twit. I will hit the stupid.


I see you saved the worst for last....

Believe me when I say I'm not offended by your rant, tiassa. Your argument has been dissected and torn apart, so now the only thing you have left is to mock me.....so sad. Not to mention, you suck at trash talking...:D

I would ask you to reread your post tiassa, and see how badly you sound. You have truly made a fool out of yourself... :cool:


EDIT - Took out "The exact quote was "Keep booing little girl. … I'll hit a man with glasses." So you can drop the will part. The context of "I'll" over "I will" can be very different."

Felt it wasn't needed in debate.

First, I'm not pissed at Moby, as you stated. I could care less whether you or "your firends" like his music either.Then you obviously missed the point of what you're citing.My problem is that Moby LIED about Eminem when interviewed, and said he was anti-semetic, racist, and homophobic. All of which are LIES.I see racism, and I see homophobia. Anti-semitism is the big question, and, as I noted, Moby may be correct.Please tell me where Eminem has ever said anything about Jews, you can't because he hasn't.Wow, you really missed the point of what you cited. I'm quite sure, as I said, that if I raided the whole catalog of everything Eminem said, I would find both what Moby was referring to and what I'm referring to. However, I'm not. You cannot prove that Moby lied until you review every word spoken by Eminem that Moby could have heard, and since I have a vague memory of Eminem saying something that someone could take offense to, I'm not entirely sure that Moby's wrong.Please tell me how he is racist. Most of his friends are Black, and I have never even heard someone suggest this. If Eminem ever said anything racist, the Hip Hop community would be all over him. Does Moby know something we don't?????The question is whether I want to write a doctoral dissertation on Eminem's lyrics. Frankly, I don't. But, since I"m too lazy to look back at the lyrics people have posted, I'll just say that if I listen to the "White America" song a thousand times, I should be able to invent a context that fits what Eminem's fans would like.

• Racist: He admits his skin color is key to his fame in White America. Oh, is this a characterization or an "artistic statement"? So he exploits his skin color. I still think the line about if he was black he would have sold only half is horseshit. There is no way that his race can figure into the statement. Put the whole statement of White America in context for me, why don't you. I've almost got it except that he seems to fuck it up at the end.

• Misogynist: well, first of all is the gender-oriented accusation that "they raggin" when some of the people who are pissed at him are, in fact, men. Quite frankly, when "bitch" is used as a noun referring to a woman disliked by the speaker, it's misogynist.

You have to understand, his critics are generally a little oversensitive, but they are correct when they point out that he raises these issues.

Homophobic: During MTV's 'EmTV' promotional weekend, Kurt Loder asked Eminem about his homophobic lyrics. "'Faggot' to me doesn't necessarily mean gay people," Eminem replied. " 'Faggot' to me just means... taking away your manhood. You're a sissy. You're a coward ... You're being an asshole, or whatever..."Yet we see:

• He points out that in his song "Criminal" the lyrics go: "Hate fags? The answer's 'yes' " but doubles back to say "Relax, guy, I like gay men." He turns the question back to Loder. "Do I really hate gay people or do I not? It's up to you to decide." Later in the same interview Dr. Dre, who helped score the album, was less cagey with his sentiments. "I don't really care about those kind of people," he said.

Fair enough so far.

• "I've answered this gay-bashing thing many a time," he tells Rolling Stone. "If people would listen to the lyrics, I say, 'Half the shit I say/I just make it up to make you mad.' And you know what? I shouldn't even have to fucking explain myself. I could just say, "Faggot, faggot, faggot," and leave it at that. Even a song like 'Stan' is a message to critics -- like, look, this is what happens if somebody takes my lyrics seriously. 'Stan' is about a sick fucking kid who took everything I said literally -- and he crashes his fucking car, kills his bitch and dies."

(I find it interesting that, even in sincerely attempting to defend his position, the best he can say is bitch, but that goes back to misogynist, and I'm into the homophobic section.)

• "[N]obody wants to talk about the positive shit I'm doing," he says later. "There's millions of white kids and black kids coming to the tour, throwing their middle fingers up in the air, and all having the common love -- and that's hip-hop. Me and Dre are changing the world right now, as we're on this tour. I feel that we are making racism less and less and less. As far as gay people, that's their business. Truthfully, I don't care. It's none of my business."

Poor Eminem. If he was a better artist, his critics wouldn't have these questions.

The reference for that article is http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=8847

But here's the deal: I'm reading the lyrics to I Remember and it seems to me that there's a number of things that can be said about homosexuality in these lyrics.

Are we supposed to take the song affectionately? A loving tribute? I mean, of all the shite Marshall slings in that song, I just don't see what homosexuality has to do with it. Given the invective and the repeated focus on the fuckin homo faggot sissy, I'm hard-pressed to not conclude he's got an issue or two with homosexuality. Help me out.

And as I glance through Just Rhymin' Wit Proof, I'm hard pressed to explain why the issue is so damned important to him. And I can't figure out what the "hermaphardite" has to do with anything.

Just nobody, please, tell me that it's some sort of free association or stream of consciousness.

I see in his presentation that homosexuality is. Right now I'm looking around for a lyric that pretty much blows his quote about faggot having nothing to do with homosexual out of the water. But you'll notice that I'm not even dealing with the silly lines about sniffing 'cane or fucking a bitch barely potty-trained.

I will, however, wonder about his frequent references to his mental state. Heck, I know he's screwed up. A lot of people are. But it's not an excuse to keep behaving poorly.

Think of it this way: if he didn't rap about smacking bitches and being Dre's homeboy and being a white rapper in the first place, it's entirely possible that nobody would care. The most I hear from his fans is his lyrical genius, as such, and I'm just not sure where it is. As a performer, he sounds quite literally like a sadistic transvestite diva. Lyrically, sure, it rhymes but it's not particularly cohesive.

I'll wait for better lyrical integrity and a broader mind than just getting up and complaining into a microphone before I'll give him the credit of being anything more than exploitative of bad taste.You seem to be talking out of your ass now tiassa. You say your "pretty sure that if we raided the whole catalog of Eminem's recorded words, Moby would find justified". So in other words, you have NEVER heard anything from Eminem backing up your comments either...Oh, I'm so sorry for not being psychic. If only I could have been clairvoyant enough to predict that Eminem would find a way to be stupid enough to make it matter to me, and to have foreseen people telling me they're intelligent while defending a smarmy, childish threat of violence in lieu of a better response, well, yes, I would have written down the exact day and time, and what show it was on, as well as exactly what he said. Oh, forgive me. I know, it's blasphemy to imagine Eminem not being a really nice, good guy.

As for Elton John, he's fully entitled to his opinion. I won't even imply that his financial troubles would compel him to work for what that performance was worth to him. Rather, the more I read Marshall's lyrics, the more I understand why people think he's homophobic. He never has anything nice to say about faggots, and that's similar to why people think he's misogynistic."My pathetic targeting of Moby"????????Well, I just don't think Moby started it really affects the situation any. If Eminem had chosen a more dignified form of exchange, he would have had a clear upper hand. But Moby started it hardly justifies a threat of violence.I see now, tiassa. In your eyes, it is wrong to give people the whole story of what happened between Eminem and Moby. I should just call him a punk (like you just did), and talk about how dumb his fans are.To be specific, I do feel you've defended Eminem's threats. You've pointed out that Moby started it and gone so far as to say it's not really a threat. Eminem is a punk. And if his fans defend his behavior, they are dumb. Furthermore, yes, I have a problem with the fans of a lot of what passes for popular-and-apparently-therefore-good music. It's just that for all the stupidity of those acts, they rarely, if ever, get up and openly threaten. In fact, a funny story. I remember when one of NKOTB set a hotel room on fire. It was a pretty stupid moment in pop music. And then their fans. I actually had someone tell me it was my fault that it happened, that if people would just not criticize the band, he wouldn't have been so stressed out. I don't see any defense of Eminem's behavior as any more intelligent. If Marshall had said, "Keep booing, little girl, I can wreck a liar," he would have been well within his rights, asserted his position, and not invoked violence. I don't even care about the insult part of it. That's really between them. But the threat ... that's just not appropriate. And I'm not about to respect the intelligence of excuses made on his behalf.I never said I condone what Eminem did at the VMA (it was lame in my opinion), but to say "he threatened violence", is an overreaction. He was trash talking to a guy who was booing him, that's it.Are you a WWE fan?

See, maybe in that testosterone-charged fantasy-land threatening violence is just "trash-talk".

I remember finding that stuff entertaining until I was about 13 or 14.The exact quote doesn't have will in it...I'll sounds more like macho bravado, than a threat.Macho bravado?

I'm sorry, but that's just ....As for me being hurt by your comments...I can't imagine you would be. It's just trash-talk, after all.As for me being hurt by your comments...Their problem. This kind of shit means I'm a lyrical genius! :rolleyes:OH NO!!!! tiassa is going to shoot Pauly Shore....You can't prove I was talking about Pauly Shore! How do you know I wasn't talking about you?

Er ...

Uh-oh :bugeye: Your not offending me at all tiassa, as for the English language...well.., that's another story.What does the English language matter? I'm a lyrical genius!ONE author's opinion, does not represent the views of those who enjoy Eminem's music.First off, I'm not sure that answered the question. Secondly, being that I would much rather spend the time I would spend following this part of the conversation back to a point where I know or care what we're talking about actually having bong hits, I'll merely trust that you have, with that response, deftly and definitively settled the issue.Did you read the article I gave you, or the posts of others on this board who appreciate Eminem's songs???I'll go back and read them again.You just don't get it, do you. Eminem was known and respected for YEARS in Hip Hop, way before he had his breakout success.There are many bands well-respected in their genres and communities that never break out. Part of the reason they don't break out is because they don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy radio airplay with. Understand, it's illegal to buy radio airplay. Payola got busted early on. It's done a different way now but all three levels of it have pointed the finger at the others and said it's their fault. It's going to be ripped open again.Radio play has help almost ever artist in the past 50 years, so why single Eminem out.That statement is completely incorrect.

Radio play has helped almost every artist who in the past fifty years who could afford it. There is a reason marquee acts are so marketed now. It's a huge competition and the books still have to balance.

Have you ever heard the band Floater on the radio? Neither have I. I pick them for a number of reasons. They're known between SF and Seattle, and back into Idaho. Everyone who hears the album is intrigued, everyone who sees them live is hooked. Why don't you hear this band on the radio? Because they don't have a couple million dollars to give to radio stations to buy airtime. Try listening to listener-supported radio ... while many of those radio stations are format-dedicated (jazz, folk, news, &c.) there are, at the college level, a number of contemporary-music outlets. Listen to them and hear what they're playing. Usually if they coincide with the Top 40 in any way, they're ahead of the game. And even their specialty shows (we used to have two great heavy metal shows) played real heavy metal and not Top 40 metal. Why? Because nobody wanted to hear it. To judge by that period: when Bon Jovi, Motley Crüe, and Poison ruled the charts, the rockers were ravenously calling into the local stations asking for D.R.I., Coven, Dark Angel, Motorhead, Sanctuary, and a host of bands you simply could not beg the commercial stations to play. Perhaps I'm spoiled; growing up near Seattle, I got to get away from commercial radio when Soundgarden, Nirvana, elements of Pearl Jam (Mother Love Bone), Alice in Chains, Mudhoney, and Screaming Trees were local acts. Watch the movie Hype! sometime. We really were that puzzled by what happened. What I'm getting after is that if you get outside the world that is listed on the Billboard Top 40, there's acres of better music out there. And the reason it doesn't get played on the radio is because of collusion between the record companies and radio stations. Payola is a well-known fact. Every time it comes up, Congress gets involved, that's how important it is to free expression. It equals a rigging of the marketplace.

It is easy to understand Eminem's popularity. If there is something to sell--and, yes, controversy is a commodity in this sense, demonstrably more valuable than talent, by the way--then it is very easy if you're a major label like Interscope, for instance, to stack the deck and make someone famous. It is a highly-refined art form of its own that relies on the trust of a gullible public.

It's not a matter of singling Eminem out. But people have mentioned that he's popular on the radio. Well, duh. With the reality of payola and the gullibility of the commercial-radio-listening public, it doesn't surprise me. If Eminem's radio popularity is an issue at all, the fact of payola is part of that consideration. It has nothing to do with singling him out.Why don't you state what you feel good music is here.Well, I did in this topic offer a list of bands I think should be on the radio. In the meantime, I think your sarcasm is misdirected. After all, there is a question of musically or lyrically. I have charged that Eminem is afraid of real musicians, and yes, the implication of that is that Eminem is not a real musician. Yet his knack for rapping and his lyrics are what hear offered in his artistic defense. Hence I wonder if the response is musical or lyrical.Believe me when I say I'm not offended by your rant, tiassa. Your argument has been dissected and torn apart, so now the only thing you have left is to mock me.....so sad. Not to mention, you suck at trash talking...Of course I suck at trash-talking at such a low level. In a more academic discussion, I can trash-talk with the best of them.The context of "I'll" over "I will" can be very differentRight, bravado. Check.I would ask you to reread your post tiassa, and see how badly you sound. You have truly made a fool out of yourself... Don't tell me you missed the point (gasp)! :p

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
Then you obviously missed the point of what you're citing.
How??? My problem was that people were attacking Eminem for defending himself against the lies Moby said. Many didn't know that Moby is the one who started the feud.
Wow, you really missed the point of what you cited. I'm quite sure, as I said, that if I raided the whole catalog of everything Eminem said, I would find both what Moby was referring to and what I'm referring to. However, I'm not. You cannot prove that Moby lied until you review every word spoken by Eminem that Moby could have heard, and since I have a vague memory of Eminem saying something that someone could take offense to, I'm not entirely sure that Moby's wrong.
Are you kidding me?? You can't possibly be serious.

If Eminem said anything anti-semetic, the ADL would be all over him. Every kind of "interest group" looks through his music with a microscope, looking for something they can protest about.

It amazes me that you condone Moby throwing out damaging labels like that, WITH NO PROOF. I have never once heard someone say that Eminem said anything anti-semetic.
The question is whether I want to write a doctoral dissertation on Eminem's lyrics. Frankly, I don't. But, since I"m too lazy to look back at the lyrics people have posted, I'll just say that if I listen to the "White America" song a thousand times, I should be able to invent a context that fits what Eminem's fans would like.

• Racist: He admits his skin color is key to his fame in White America. Oh, is this a characterization or an "artistic statement"? So he exploits his skin color. I still think the line about if he was black he would have sold only half is horseshit. There is no way that his race can figure into the statement. Put the whole statement of White America in context for me, why don't you. I've almost got it except that he seems to fuck it up at the end.

I'm sorry, but was there supposed to be something racist here????:confused:

When he says his skin color is the key to his fame, he's talking about the fact that if he was a Black rapper saying the same things, he wouldn't the same amount of airtime nor fame that he gets. A Will Smith or Nelly can, but because their lyrics aren't controversial.

The line about if he was black he would have sold only half, deals with the same double-standard I stated before. He's speaking out about the music industry and how it operates, not in anyway being racist.

He has also compared himself to Elvis, in the way that he gets more fame than Black artists of similiar skills because he's more "marketable"....

I don't see how you could see these statements as racist.
• Misogynist: well, first of all is the gender-oriented accusation that "they raggin" when some of the people who are pissed at him are, in fact, men. Quite frankly, when "bitch" is used as a noun referring to a woman disliked by the speaker, it's misogynist.
When he raps, he's speaking from the view of a character in many of his songs, for example "Stan". Obviously the word "bitch" is very powerful, and conveys the feeling of the character in a powerful way. The funny thing though, is for the most part when he's not playing a character, he's saying bitch to a man and not a woman. Or to his mother who IMO deserves the label.

The word "bitch" isn't exclusive to women, just go to a dog show, they say it all the time.:D It is used alot today at men, basically calling them wimps and has nothing to do with women in that case.

Our English language is a weird, ever evolving mess, isn't it...:cool:
You have to understand, his critics are generally a little oversensitive, but they are correct when they point out that he raises these issues.
I just showed you above why they're wrong.
• He points out that in his song "Criminal" the lyrics go: "Hate fags? The answer's 'yes' " but doubles back to say "Relax, guy, I like gay men." He turns the question back to Loder. "Do I really hate gay people or do I not? It's up to you to decide." Later in the same interview Dr. Dre, who helped score the album, was less cagey with his sentiments. "I don't really care about those kind of people," he said.

Fair enough so far.

So far, no gay bashing...
• "I've answered this gay-bashing thing many a time," he tells Rolling Stone. "If people would listen to the lyrics, I say, 'Half the shit I say/I just make it up to make you mad.' And you know what? I shouldn't even have to fucking explain myself. I could just say, "Faggot, faggot, faggot," and leave it at that. Even a song like 'Stan' is a message to critics -- like, look, this is what happens if somebody takes my lyrics seriously. 'Stan' is about a sick fucking kid who took everything I said literally -- and he crashes his fucking car, kills his bitch and dies."

(I find it interesting that, even in sincerely attempting to defend his position, the best he can say is bitch, but that goes back to misogynist, and I'm into the homophobic section.)

Once again he explains how he isn't homophobic, and talks about the mesages in his songs.

As for saying bitch, no one said Eminem is the rolemodel for manners. Many people (unfortunately), use the word bitch in reference to women, But it's more similiar to when Blacks called each other "Nigga" in songs (I'm Black and hate the word, but some find it endearing).:rolleyes:

Have we come to the point now in society that we must nickpick every single word a person says? Why do the gay activists who complain want to paint Eminem as anti-gay when he denies it, and constanly says he isn't? It's like the activists are telling Eminem he's homophobic, whether he wants to be or not.
• "[N]obody wants to talk about the positive shit I'm doing," he says later. "There's millions of white kids and black kids coming to the tour, throwing their middle fingers up in the air, and all having the common love -- and that's hip-hop. Me and Dre are changing the world right now, as we're on this tour. I feel that we are making racism less and less and less. As far as gay people, that's their business. Truthfully, I don't care. It's none of my business."
Funny you put this quote in your post, yet ignore how he talks about making racism less and less. He's talking about a common love between Black and White people. Doesn't sound like the words of a racist to me.
Poor Eminem. If he was a better artist, his critics wouldn't have these questions.

The reference for that article is http://www.datalounge.com/dataloung...tml?record=8847

NO, you have it backwards. If Eminem's critics were better informed and actually listened to his songs and words, they wouldn't have questions. In every article you posted, he has denied being homophobic. He explained his use of the word "faggot" as not in reference to gay people.

Once again, Elton John said it best in referenc to the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation...

"I think they are a bunch of a--holes, sorry guys," John said. "I wouldn't have [worked with him] if he was homophobic, and if he was he wouldn't have asked me."
But here's the deal: I'm reading the lyrics to I Remember and it seems to me that there's a number of things that can be said about homosexuality in these lyrics.

Are we supposed to take the song affectionately? A loving tribute? I mean, of all the shite Marshall slings in that song, I just don't see what homosexuality has to do with it. Given the invective and the repeated focus on the fuckin homo faggot sissy, I'm hard-pressed to not conclude he's got an issue or two with homosexuality. Help me out.
LMAO!!:p, you must be kidding me. This song is a diss to Everlast (a rapper), they had a falling out and Eminem spoke to him "musically", I thought that's what you wanted..

I think I'm starting to see your problem with understanding the context of Eminem's lyrics. Your reading them, instead of listening to them in the way they are said.

Eminem calls Everlast, yes a faggot, but also a bitch, a sissy, and a cunt. It's OBVIOUS if you know the story of these two, and if you listen to the song, the context of it. He is calling Everlast names, just like opponents do in sports, or drivers on the freeway to some who cuts them off. To call that song homophobic is beyond ridiculous.
And as I glance through Just Rhymin' Wit Proof, I'm hard pressed to explain why the issue is so damned important to him. And I can't figure out what the "hermaphardite" has to do with anything.
LOL!! Once again, listen to the song. It's a freestyle song, where a rapper ryhmes things off the top of his head. He never even wrote that song on paper.

I'm guess you've never heard of freestyling..;)
And how does saying the word "hermaphrodite" makes him anti-gay??
I see in his presentation that homosexuality is. Right now I'm looking around for a lyric that pretty much blows his quote about faggot having nothing to do with homosexual out of the water. But you'll notice that I'm not even dealing with the silly lines about sniffing 'cane or fucking a bitch barely potty-trained.

I will, however, wonder about his frequent references to his mental state. Heck, I know he's screwed up. A lot of people are. But it's not an excuse to keep behaving poorly.

Think of it this way: if he didn't rap about smacking bitches and being Dre's homeboy and being a white rapper in the first place, it's entirely possible that nobody would care. The most I hear from his fans is his lyrical genius, as such, and I'm just not sure where it is. As a performer, he sounds quite literally like a sadistic transvestite diva. Lyrically, sure, it rhymes but it's not particularly cohesive.

I'll wait for better lyrical integrity and a broader mind than just getting up and complaining into a microphone before I'll give him the credit of being anything more than exploitative of bad taste.
His "lyrical genius" comes from how he creates musically characters and captures their emotions and feelings into song. After all, rap is musical poetry telling a lyrical story.

I sincerely hope you don't read poetry the same way you look at rap, some works may offend you.;)

BTW- Keep looking for a lyric that contradicts his statement about "faggot", you can't find something that doesn't exist.
Oh, I'm so sorry for not being psychic. If only I could have been clairvoyant enough to predict that Eminem would find a way to be stupid enough to make it matter to me, and to have foreseen people telling me they're intelligent while defending a smarmy, childish threat of violence in lieu of a better response, well, yes, I would have written down the exact day and time, and what show it was on, as well as exactly what he said. Oh, forgive me. I know, it's blasphemy to imagine Eminem not being a really nice, good guy.

As for Elton John, he's fully entitled to his opinion. I won't even imply that his financial troubles would compel him to work for what that performance was worth to him. Rather, the more I read Marshall's lyrics, the more I understand why people think he's homophobic. He never has anything nice to say about faggots, and that's similar to why people think he's misogynistic.
LOL, I never said that Eminem is a well mannered guy, he's not getting any invitations from the Royal Palace anytime soon...

Whose condoning what Eminem said??? I already said I didn't condone it, and I said I thought it was lame. HOWEVER, I think it is an overreaction to call it a "violent threat", you make it sound like he should have been arrested for saying "Keep booing little girl, I'll hit a man with glasses".

So what if he hasn't said anything nice about gay people. I haven't said anything nice about Mormons, does that make me anti-Mormon?

He HAS stated that he has no problem with gay people many times. Why do you choose to ignore this?

Also, it's interesting that you would think Elton John (a man who has done ALOT for the gay community, and is gay), would associate with Eminem for financial gain. That's like saying I would hook up with David Duke for a little extra cash.

By the way, what financial gain? The two performed at the Grammys. They didn't release an album together. I don't even know if they had a single.
Well, I just don't think Moby started it really affects the situation any. If Eminem had chosen a more dignified form of exchange, he would have had a clear upper hand. But Moby started it hardly justifies a threat of violence.
Ha has responded in song and parody before. No one said Eminem is the nicest guy in the World. The only problem he had was with Moby's comments and booing. He didn't do anything to Christina Agrilera, who he recieved the award from, in fact he thanked her. Even though they have been feuding...
To be specific, I do feel you've defended Eminem's threats. You've pointed out that Moby started it and gone so far as to say it's not really a threat. Eminem is a punk. And if his fans defend his behavior, they are dumb. Furthermore, yes, I have a problem with the fans of a lot of what passes for popular-and-apparently-therefore-good music. It's just that for all the stupidity of those acts, they rarely, if ever, get up and openly threaten. In fact, a funny story. I remember when one of NKOTB set a hotel room on fire. It was a pretty stupid moment in pop music. And then their fans. I actually had someone tell me it was my fault that it happened, that if people would just not criticize the band, he wouldn't have been so stressed out. I don't see any defense of Eminem's behavior as any more intelligent. If Marshall had said, "Keep booing, little girl, I can wreck a liar," he would have been well within his rights, asserted his position, and not invoked violence. I don't even care about the insult part of it. That's really between them. But the threat ... that's just not appropriate. And I'm not about to respect the intelligence of excuses made on his behalf.
I doubt if many of his fans will deny he's a punk, his honesty and no hold barred attitude is what endears him to many.

Of course, I was a big Ramones fan in my childhood, so maybe I can appreciate this kind of attitude better...

Are you a WWE fan?

See, maybe in that testosterone-charged fantasy-land threatening violence is just "trash-talk".

I remember finding that stuff entertaining until I was about 13 or 14.

No, haven't been a wrestling fan since I was around 12.

Sometimes people trash talk, I doubt mind as long as it's done verbally.

I'm surprised you never heard the "Stick and stones may break my bone, but words can never hurt me.." mantra in your childhood.;)

There are many bands well-respected in their genres and communities that never break out. Part of the reason they don't break out is because they don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy radio airplay with. Understand, it's illegal to buy radio airplay. Payola got busted early on. It's done a different way now but all three levels of it have pointed the finger at the others and said it's their fault. It's going to be ripped open again.

As I said before, I'm well aware of payola. But Eminem was known before and respected in the undergorund before he hit mainstream. Your problem has to do with the music industry, Dre had influence and was able to help Eminem to get mainstream exposure. Eminem still had to produce the music, just like any other artist.

That statement is completely incorrect.

Your right, I meant to put Top-selling artist instead of just artist.

It is easy to understand Eminem's popularity. If there is something to sell--and, yes, controversy is a commodity in this sense, demonstrably more valuable than talent, by the way--then it is very easy if you're a major label like Interscope, for instance, to stack the deck and make someone famous. It is a highly-refined art form of its own that relies on the trust of a gullible public.

It's not a matter of singling Eminem out. But people have mentioned that he's popular on the radio. Well, duh. With the reality of payola and the gullibility of the commercial-radio-listening public, it doesn't surprise me. If Eminem's radio popularity is an issue at all, the fact of payola is part of that consideration. It has nothing to do with singling him out.

No offence, but if you have no clue as to why he's popular.

It's not about controversy as you say, but the raw honesty and emotion put into his songs. It's the images he paints into our minds, or the stories he tells, that we appreciate.

Does controversy get him press, yes. But his first breakout song,"My name is", that gave his fame didn't have controversy.

The controversy came after...

Have you ever heard the band Floater on the radio? Neither have I. I pick them for a number of reasons. They're known between SF and Seattle, and back into Idaho. Everyone who hears the album is intrigued, everyone who sees them live is hooked. Why don't you hear this band on the radio? Because they don't have a couple million dollars to give to radio stations to buy airtime. Try listening to listener-supported radio ... while many of those radio stations are format-dedicated (jazz, folk, news, &c.) there are, at the college level, a number of contemporary-music outlets. Listen to them and hear what they're playing. Usually if they coincide with the Top 40 in any way, they're ahead of the game. And even their specialty shows (we used to have two great heavy metal shows) played real heavy metal and not Top 40 metal. Why? Because nobody wanted to hear it. To judge by that period: when Bon Jovi, Motley Crüe, and Poison ruled the charts, the rockers were ravenously calling into the local stations asking for D.R.I., Coven, Dark Angel, Motorhead, Sanctuary, and a host of bands you simply could not beg the commercial stations to play. Perhaps I'm spoiled; growing up near Seattle, I got to get away from commercial radio when Soundgarden, Nirvana, elements of Pearl Jam (Mother Love Bone), Alice in Chains, Mudhoney, and Screaming Trees were local acts. Watch the movie Hype! sometime. We really were that puzzled by what happened. What I'm getting after is that if you get outside the world that is listed on the Billboard Top 40, there's acres of better music out there. And the reason it doesn't get played on the radio is because of collusion between the record companies and radio stations. Payola is a well-known fact. Every time it comes up, Congress gets involved, that's how important it is to free expression. It equals a rigging of the marketplace.


Why do you assume I listen to commercial radio. I play CD's in my car, and outside of Howard Stern, or the occasional talk show, I don't listen to much radio. It's all crappy R&B, Pop, or awful Rap songs in LA.

As I stated in another thread that I started "What is Good Music", I stated that I love many different forms of music. I've never been a Top 40 kinda of guy, my tastes are dictated by my connection with the music itself, nothing else.

Don't tell me you missed the point (gasp)!

I clearly understood your point. My point however, is that you looked foolish in your attempt to mock Eminem.:cool:

first of all i think static76 really says a lot of right things, so i dont feel the need to say the same thing again, because he said it perfectly:)

few things though, it seems like you really reaching to find something tiassa, and the more you say, the more obvious it is that you know absolutly NOTHING about eminem, and just copy what other people say about him. you are desperate to twist everything around what he says (like the song white america) to see something bad in it..i give you some proof that you are really wrong...

Rather, the more I read Marshall's lyrics, the more I understand why people think he's homophobic. He never has anything nice to say about faggots, and that's similar to why people think he's misogynistic.
he never says anything nice about women?? and how are you so sure about that? look at these lyrics then (searchin- infinite album)
Women Singing:
Ain't no one special, special like you (4X)
I been searching, but your the one I want in my life baby (4X)
Verse 1: Eminem
I'm reminiscing on your tenderness and the snuggling and teasing
Missing what I remember, kissing and hugging and squeezing
Bugging and weezing, I'm having trouble when breathing
It's even tougher when sleeping
But there's a couple of reasons that I'm suffering and grieving
For loving and leaving, you all I'm thinking of in the evening
You got my knees buckling and weakening
Thoughts of nothing but freaking that I'm struggling to keep in
And interrupt when I'm speaking
I got some game that I'm preparing to run
The way your lips sparkle and glare in the sun
You got your hair in a bun, no matter what you're wearing you stun
Cause your comparing to none, I wanna share in the fun
I feel a passionate lust when I'm imagining just us alone at last with a touch
I see you grasping to trust, but my intentions are good
The seed is passing in dust
I'm not asking to rush and answer immediately
I just wanna be there for you and you to be there for me
If you agree to repeat after me, I Love You (I love you baby)
Cause I just need you to see, how much I'm eager to be
Your man legally wed, your love's keeping me fed
This is easily said, so you can lead or be led
If you care to be down cause ain't nobody Like you no where to be found

about his daughter in hailies song:
Verse 1
Somedays I sit staring out the window, watchin' this world pass me by/Sometimes I think there's nothin' to live for. I almost break down and cry. Sometimes I think I'm crazy. I'm crazy, oh so crazy. Why am I here? Am I just wasting my time/But then I see my baby, suddenly I'm not crazy. It all makes sense when I look into her eyes

Chorus
Cuz sometimes it feels like the world's on my shoulders. Everyone's leaning on me/ Cuz sometimes it feels like the world's almost over, but then she comes back to me.

Verse 2
My baby girl keeps getting' older. I watch her grow up with pride. People make jokes cuz they don't understand me, they just don't see my real side/ I act like shit don't phase me, inside it drives me crazy. My insecurities could eat me alive/But then I see my baby, suddenly I'm not crazy. It all makes sense when I look in her eyes.

these lyrics are when he is Marshall in his songs, and not slim shady..

about the anti-semitism, i never even heard his character slim shady saying anything about jews, or anything negative about them...but to see if there is anything i searched in a search engine on the internet and all i could find was that eminem does NOT insult jews...most articles about this subject says: what if eminem would hate on jews and blacks, would the freedom of speech then be tolerated?? obviously meaning he doesnt refer to jews...and a very funny fact even is that interscope records (the record label from eminem) is jewish, i didnt even knew this, but i found it on several sites on the internet, here a link to one of them: http://www.detourmag.com/faces/cattycorner/boygeorge.html (www.detourmag.com/faces/cattycorner/boygeorge.html) so i doubt it that a label owned by a jew, would allow anti-semitism:p
only little thing i could find in eminem's song about nazi's, is this little part in the song fight music- devils night album:
If I could capture the rage
Of today's youth and bottle it
Crush the glass with my bare hands and swallow it
And spit it back in the face of you racists
And hypocrites who think the same shit but don't say shit
You Liberaces, Versaces and Nazi's watch me
Cuz you figured you got me and this hot seat
You motherfuckers wanna judge me cuz you're not me
You'll never stop me
I'm top speed and you pop me
I came to save these new generations of babies
From parents who failed to raise them cuz the lazy
So grow to praise me, I'm makin em go crazy
That's how I got the whole nation to embrace me
And you fugazy if you think I'm a admit wrong
I'll cripple any hypocritic critic I'm sicked on
And this song is for any kid who get's picked on
A sick song to retaliate to and it's called

he spits this song in a lot of anger, you really would have to hear it instead of reading, sounds like he is really pissed of about racism and nazis..well thats all i could find about the subject, and actually moby was the first i have EVER heard accusing Eminem of this..its like static76 says, if he would really have said anything discriminating about jews, they would have been all over him...

ok next accusation of moby: racism...i really cant see how he even gets this idea in his head...eminem have never even taken the word 'nigga' in his mouth, although his friends from d12 do use it, like static76 said, it's pretty common around blacks to say this with rap..but ok to proove he's not a racist..here's a picture of him and his best buddies (d12), now please drop the whole racism stuff because its ridiculous..

last accusation from moby: homophobic...eminem like static76 have always denied in interviews that he does hate homo's, he even said after the grammies when he performed with elton john: if this doesnt proove that im not a homophobic, then i dont know what to do anymore..eminem always speaks his mind, denying the fact he's homophobic, doesnt fit in that picture, but here a picture to proove to you it's very unlikely that he's homophobic, because i doubt it you will hug elton john then:p

its funny that you think eminem should have said: no your accusations are wrong moby, while you think its ok for moby to accuse him without any proof?? that is very twisted..EVERYONE IS STILL INNOCENT BEFORE PROOVEN GUILTY, at least i thought thats what the usa was all about right??

and another..

just as a point.. Em singing with Elton was kindof an accident. When he was asked what it would take for him to perfrom for them, he said, "I'll only do it if elton John sings with me". Joking, and never expecting it would happen. then, to his suprise, they called and said "OK!".. so he went through with it.

Tiassa:
i listened to those songs you recommended.... and.. well.. if you like them.. thats your thing lol.. not really my cup of tea... any other suggestions?

I really enjoyed reading this thread. I think eminem is a fucking idiot personally, but to be completely honest he makes me laugh somtimes. He isn't talented musically, at all, in my opinion. Now, I agree totally with Tiassa on all but one thing. I can't see how you grouped System of a Down with the Puddle of Mudds and other bands like these. Lyrically, System's views closely resemble yours.

I just don't get what's so hard to see. No, he doesn't hate women or homosexuals yet consistently refers to them in negative light. Watch the movie The Rapture. And then I'll tell you that there is no personal deliberation in the characterization of Biblical evangelicals.

Think of it in terms of what is important enough to express. If such things made no difference, they would not be important enough to express. Consistently, as I encounter more and more of his lyrics, I see negative associations between the lyrical perspective and homosexuality, and between the lyrical perspective and women.

As for when Eminem's lyrics reflect him as "Marshall", well ... what can I say? At his finest he is pop tripe?

I would say that Marshall is wrongly focused, but that's all a matter of life experience and opinion; as his experiences are different from mine, so his opinions will be different from mine. He has his whole career to make a coherent artistic statement. Until then I generally do think most of his critics are making a bigger deal out of it than they should be. But when he goes and shoots his mouth like that, what is he supposed to expect? I happened to catch Conan O'Brien's bit on the VMA. Naturally, poor Marshall was not cast in a good light.

Like I say: he has the rest of his career to make a coherent artistic statement. How long that career is depends a great deal on whether or not he chooses to behave himself better. And no, I don't think he's that good of a lyricist. Maybe he is for a rapper, but what does that say about rap?

Lastly, I think of other artists who are "well-respected" by their genres, in their communities, and by folks around the world who can't get radio airplay in their own hometown, and I truly do wonder about the strange appeal of the packaged bands. I admit, it pisses me off when disrespectful idiots get the record sales because that's all the consumers can manage to digest anymore while better music goes unheard. Many of us in the Seattle area chuckled about the soundtrack to the movie Singles. Someone was trying to force a situation with airplay. I mean, come on ... in the years leading up to that movie, Nelson was in the Top 40 and Sony had no clue what to do with the Screaming Trees' major-label debut Uncle Anesthesia. And what's funny is that, so the story goes, what happened in Seattle is accidentally the fault of Sonic Youth, who allegedly told DGC that they would sign but only if DGC signed this band called Nirvana, essentially on the premise that whoever was lucky enough to accidentally sign this band would wallop the hell out of anything DGC had to offer, Sonic Youth included, and that's how we landed with "Teen Spirit". Remember Soundgarden on the Say Anything soundtrack? Yes, Crowe was trying to let people know what was going on up here, and it was only after a complete and utter accident that everybody pays attention.

Now, just think about that for a moment: stop and think about all the bands that the public, literally, cannot deny. The bands that get famous without MTV specials on the lyrical content. The kind of bands that get famous on the merits of their musical prowess and not a sequence of alleged façades meant to titillate and provoke.

It just bugs me to see people defending the lower mentality of a pop-pandering freak while they could be spending their time listening to better music, be it classical or jazz or better rap, perhaps Andean tribal drums or Gypsy fiddling. People can listen to whatever they want to listen to, but it just seems ridiculous that they should attempt to justify or downplay Eminem's behavior. All that does is set a standard of when an utter lack of civility is acceptable among allegedly-civilized people. And, frankly, it's a pretty low standard, I think.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

I can't see how you grouped System of a Down with the Puddle of Mudds and other bands like these. Lyrically, System's views closely resemble yours.A couple of things I see about the popular guitar-and-drum "rock" going on these days is a certain amount of selfishness. Papa Roach, for instance. Okay, parental issues. And yes, Floater even sings to parental figures, so it's hard to pick on that in itself. But something about Papa Roach is just ridiculously simplistic and selfish ....

That example for the extreme. It's just that in the case of bands like Puddle of Mudd and System of a Down, I hear a certain lyrical immaturity that takes a portion of a process I'm sympathetic to and declares it the whole. It's too shortsighted, and that I think is a concession to the necessities of playing the pop culture.

The way I look at it is to consider social majorities. They make a bunch of silly musicians popular and leave more dedicated, more studied, more capable musicians without certain major outlets to reach the people, such as radio via payola. The social majority also reduced our presidential election to Bush and Gore, so .. you know? I find many good recommendations in the mass-expression of popular taste. But the finest work escapes notice of the pop culture crowd.

I'm actually most interested in seeing how hard the industry shifts and what gear it drops into after Smile is released. There's a bunch of people's favorite musicians who happen to be musicians who the current popsters admire who are still waiting for the definitive statement from the unquestioned master of their own youths. It's already having its impact, since most of the music is available in varying recording qualities. But nobody can figure out exactly what is supposed to happen with the components and, while it's all wonderful for inspiration, the best-trained, best-educaed, most gifted of the pop culture will turn on the dime, so to speak, when Smile comes out. It's not a matter of what will happen, but a matter of how fast it happens. We may get a respite from collections of singles in the guise of an album. We might get a new golden era of rock and roll out of it. It's all a matter of how fast it happens. The album is 35 years late, but the matter of how fast it happens will best be determined once people figure out how far ahead of the current state of the recording industry the album will actually be. It's the album that scared the Beatles into making Sergeant Pepper.

It's just that most of the heavy-rock bands currently enjoying popular appeal are aiming for it just a little too deliberately. They may or may not learn about that. If they do, then they'll have good futures ahead of them. If not, well, anything's possible, right?

I mean, a full half of my iTunes library is mediocre music and worse. I don't deny the appeal of some pop-culture favorites, but more often than not, they fail to impress me. System of a Down is intriguing in the way Savatage is. They may go their entire life enjoying popular success but never finding the critical acceptance that comes from a community of like-minded who acknowledge one's legitimacy. In other words, they might never be taken seriously.

A neutral example is Oasis. I keep waiting for them to blow my minds. But Mojo magazine, I believe it was, once interviewed a couple of legendary British songwriters whose names escape me. The two were asked about contemporary music and gave various comments, such as noting of Belle & Sebastian that English folk is a lucky pop genre because one needs not be able to sing .... One of them said, of Oasis, that it sounded like what he would get if he assigned his students to write him a pop song in ____ key. They were fundamentally sound as songs go, but that's all they were.

Or Coldplay. I'm suddenly impressed by this band, but ... I wish they would stop with the love songs. If they're as good as I think they are, they won't need love songs. In the comparative, I still haven't given them the credibility they probably deserve. But this on the concession of love songs. Don't get me wrong, the Rheostatics have love songs, but such interpretations could be entirely wrong ....

A great example of the abstract division I'm noting: The Pursuit of Happiness. Canadian band. Most mediocre band I've ever been fascinated with. But I absolutely love their mediocre albums. I like them, but I don't assert them to be particularly great. Or Tommy Shaw, guitarist for Styx. I have several of his solo albums. But I damn well put my foot down when it came to Damn Yankees. I mean, come on, at some point I've just gotta say no .... And then his 1998, post-Damn Yankees solo album ... hey, I prefer it to DY because while it's not particularly deep, it's a further coherent exploration in a fundamentally odd career that I've been aware of since I was a child. But the bit with Marina Sirtis reading poetry over a peace and love chorus has more artistic merit in it than most of the top 40. It wouldn't sound good on a car stereo, though.

It might turn out that anybody of the pop-pander movements might wind up with massive amounts of credibility. It's happened before. But I'll acknowledge it either when it happens or when I can see clearly that it's going to happen.

I'm just stoned & babbling :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

who cares, one's a wigger, the others a fag.



fukk off zog driven pop culture assimilation.

fukk off emptyv.


fukk off.

Originally posted by tiassa
I just don't get what's so hard to see. No, he doesn't hate women or homosexuals yet consistently refers to them in negative light. Watch the movie The Rapture. And then I'll tell you that there is no personal deliberation in the characterization of Biblical evangelicals.

Think of it in terms of what is important enough to express. If such things made no difference, they would not be important enough to express. Consistently, as I encounter more and more of his lyrics, I see negative associations between the lyrical perspective and homosexuality, and between the lyrical perspective and women.

Let's just agree that Eminem's music is not your cup of tea.

Yes, he uses VERY harsh language and slang in his songs. But there needed to convey the emotion of the lyrics to the listener. He's not teaching pre-school, he's making music. Personally, I think your looking for something that's not there.

I would say that Marshall is wrongly focused, but that's all a matter of life experience and opinion; as his experiences are different from mine, so his opinions will be different from mine. He has his whole career to make a coherent artistic statement. Until then I generally do think most of his critics are making a bigger deal out of it than they should be. But when he goes and shoots his mouth like that, what is he supposed to expect? I happened to catch Conan O'Brien's bit on the VMA. Naturally, poor Marshall was not cast in a good light.

People have a right to criticize Eminem if they feel he's gone overboard. The only reason I got into this thread is because many didn't know the reason why he said that to Moby.

I'm not sure what "artistic statement" your looking for, perhaps you can clarify it to me...

Like I say: he has the rest of his career to make a coherent artistic statement. How long that career is depends a great deal on whether or not he chooses to behave himself better. And no, I don't think he's that good of a lyricist. Maybe he is for a rapper, but what does that say about rap?
You have a right to believe he isn't that good of a lyricist,...even if your wrong.;)

Lastly, I think of other artists who are "well-respected" by their genres, in their communities, and by folks around the world who can't get radio airplay in their own hometown, and I truly do wonder about the strange appeal of the packaged bands. I admit, it pisses me off when disrespectful idiots get the record sales because that's all the consumers can manage to digest anymore while better music goes unheard. Many of us in the Seattle area chuckled about the soundtrack to the movie Singles. Someone was trying to force a situation with airplay. I mean, come on ... in the years leading up to that movie, Nelson was in the Top 40 and Sony had no clue what to do with the Screaming Trees' major-label debut Uncle Anesthesia. And what's funny is that, so the story goes, what happened in Seattle is accidentally the fault of Sonic Youth, who allegedly told DGC that they would sign but only if DGC signed this band called Nirvana, essentially on the premise that whoever was lucky enough to accidentally sign this band would wallop the hell out of anything DGC had to offer, Sonic Youth included, and that's how we landed with "Teen Spirit". Remember Soundgarden on the Say Anything soundtrack? Yes, Crowe was trying to let people know what was going on up here, and it was only after a complete and utter accident that everybody pays attention.
The fundamental problem with your point here, is that you keep associating Eminem's success with pre-packaged bands and pop singers. This is completely wrong.

The reason Eminem finally made it big after many years of getting no airplay, was due to the producer Dr. Dre. Because Dre had his own record label and contacts with Interscope, he was able to get Eminem's foot into the door. He wasn't picked off the street and made into star by some company as you keep suggesting.

BTW - If radio sucks that bad in Seattle, maybe you should start a petition or something..:D

Now, just think about that for a moment: stop and think about all the bands that the public, literally, cannot deny. The bands that get famous without MTV specials on the lyrical content. The kind of bands that get famous on the merits of their musical prowess and not a sequence of alleged façades meant to titillate and provoke.
:rolleyes: Does getting airtime on MTV mean that the artist has no lyrical content.

Perhaps you have a short memory, so let me refresh it for you. Nirvana (the band you keep claiming as the anit-Eminem type), got JUST AS MUCH airplay on MTV as Eminem. I'm sure the posters here remember watching 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' about 500 times on MTV. That song from Nirvana is also the MOST PLAYED MTV VIDEO EVER in the UK and Ireland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2166802.stm

Hmmmmm...., so was Nirvana's success due to payola and MTV brainwashing? Do you see how ridiculous this kind of arguement sounds?

It just bugs me to see people defending the lower mentality of a pop-pandering freak while they could be spending their time listening to better music, be it classical or jazz or better rap, perhaps Andean tribal drums or Gypsy fiddling. People can listen to whatever they want to listen to, but it just seems ridiculous that they should attempt to justify or downplay Eminem's behavior. All that does is set a standard of when an utter lack of civility is acceptable among allegedly-civilized people. And, frankly, it's a pretty low standard, I think.
No one is trying to justify Eminem's behavior, we're just putting it into context. If you don't like his music, don't listen.

Eminem's not nearly my favorite musician or rapper for that matter, I just like some of his songs, that's it. I do find it strange though, that you call him pop... A group like Nirvana can get massive coverage from MTV in the 90's. Yet Eminem is pop because his coverage came today... :rolleyes:

Yes, he uses VERY harsh language and slang in his songs. But there needed to convey the emotion of the lyrics to the listener.Convey the emotion of the lyrics to the listener? You know, I agree with Dee Snider, who once said, "Somehow Gee whiz and golly just don't cut it," but you've got to be kidding me.

What emotion is Eminem conveying?He's not teaching pre-school, he's making music. On the first count, we can be glad. On the second count, no. He's writing lyrics and other people are making music for him. I thought we'd been through this.Personally, I think your looking for something that's not thereThat's what I tell people who buy Eminem because they say they want something good. Of course, I don't have to say it often. Very few people buy Eminem under the pretense that it's good. Under the pretense that it's cool, maybe. But not many under the pretense it's good.People have a right to criticize Eminem if they feel he's gone overboard. The only reason I got into this thread is because many didn't know the reason why he said that to Moby.Apparently they don't. If you criticize Eminem, you get threatened.

Oh, wait, it's not really a threat, is it?

Whatever.I'm not sure what "artistic statement" your looking for, perhaps you can clarify it to me...You're right. Nobody in this topic has mentioned the quality of his lyrics, the emotions he conveys, the context of his lyrics, or anything like that.

Never mind. :rolleyes:

(Seriously: is it forgetfulness? How about it's not that important? Or maybe you're a moron? People keep telling me about the lyrics and how I'm reading them wrong. What artistic statement do you think? Really? I mean, what, do I really have to put up with this from you, too? All parodies, satires, commentaries, and so forth aside, is it really your goal to demonstrate the correctness of all the badmouthing I've done of Eminem's fans? I mean, come on ... really, give me a freaking break! :rolleyes: )

Here, let's put it this way: If Eminem would like to make a better artistic statement than, "Show me the money and watch me strut 'cuz I"m really that stupid!" then he's going to have to use his brain every once in a while. I might be more sympathetic to Marshall except for the fact that I saw the bit with the damn dog puppet. I mean, really. And then here sit his fans claiming misunderstandings and he didn't really mean that and it's not that big a deal and it's not really a threat. And now, with the artistic vision in jeopardy because those who think him violent or hateful are obviously wrong, although we see the spilling of the parodies and satires into real life as he spreads his machismo shite too thin, and suddenly the question is, "What artistic vision?" I think that was the damn question his critics asked!

Wow. I've seen some pretty vivid demonstrations of my points before, but that was pretty f@cking cool.

Thank you for that.The fundamental problem with your point here, is that you keep associating Eminem's success with pre-packaged bands and pop singers. This is completely wrong.

The reason Eminem finally made it big after many years of getting no airplay, was due to the producer Dr. Dre. Because Dre had his own record label and contacts with Interscope, he was able to get Eminem's foot into the door. He wasn't picked off the street and made into star by some company as you keep suggesting.I would suggest that you learn a little more about the recording industry. I know it's easier to deal with your alleged point if you undertake an either/or. But it's not one or the other. The discredit you do unto other musicians here is stunning. Think of it this way: there is a top 100. Okay? Easy enough? Now, that top 100 comes from about 500 possibilities. In addition to those 500 possibilities are 10,000 more possibilities that you, as a radio listener, or as an MTV viewer, will never experience. Why? Because Interscope and Sony and A&M and all those record labels make sure that they don't. Take a look at the tours they send him on, take a look at the promotional expense of keeping him in front of the public. Once they decide to go forward with a project like that, it's a stiff sell. I mean, really: Nirvana was good, but were they that good? Steve Albini got paid $3 million to engineer Nirvana's In Utero. The whole production of Nirvana's Bleach cost $600. Eminem need not be a member of the Monkees to have been propelled by the will of his record label at the expense of other hard-working musicians. It happens all the time.The fundamental problem with your point here, is that you keep associating Eminem's success with pre-packaged bands and pop singers. This is completely wrong.

The reason Eminem finally made it big after many years of getting no airplay, was due to the producer Dr. Dre. Because Dre had his own record label and contacts with Interscope, he was able to get Eminem's foot into the door. He wasn't picked off the street and made into star by some company as you keep suggesting.Actually, people in Seattle generally do the smart thing: we listen to CD's. We learned a long time ago that the listener's only job is to listen and pretend to enjoy it. Radio is best used in Seattle for baseball games in the car.Does getting airtime on MTV mean that the artist has no lyrical content.Are you intentionally missing the point or is this one of those things I get to hold against Eminem fans?Perhaps you have a short memory, so let me refresh it for you. Nirvana (the band you keep claiming as the anit-Eminem type), got JUST AS MUCH airplay on MTV as Eminem. I'm sure the posters here remember watching 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' about 500 times on MTV. That song from Nirvana is also the MOST PLAYED MTV VIDEO EVER in the UK and Ireland.This paragraph tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about. Think about it: some bands are just popular because they write good music. Some people need their spotlight extended by specials about the controversy surrounding this or that lyric.Hmmmmm...., so was Nirvana's success due to payola and MTV brainwashing? Do you see how ridiculous this kind of arguement sounds?Nope. Nirvana's success was specifically due to being in the right place at the right time. Six months earlier or later and it might not have gone. But one thing they didn't need was MTV sitting there running half-hour essential advertisements for Nirvana. Some bands become popular based on their musical merits. Hello? Of course, I understand if the concept confuses you.No one is trying to justify Eminem's behavior, we're just putting it into context.You're right. Nobody told me it was no big deal. Nobody told me it wasn't even a threat. Nobody told me that Moby started it. Whatever you say.

This is the thing that kills me in this: I am arguing an exceptionally tenuous position. Literally, I'm having fun because Eminem decided to be a two-bit prick in public. In case you hadn't noticed, people have been complaining about my don't like-don't listen policy. Apparently I'm not being fair to Marshall by not spending money on his albums and not wanting to listen to him. However, what kills me is that there's a couple of people in here behaving like absolute children. First defending, minimizing, justifying, Eminem's behavior. And now this, "No one is trying to justify ...."

What-ever.

Seriously, if I ever needed any greater proof of the quality of Eminem's fans, I think I pretty much got it. The logic I'm looking at is about on par with the Bush administration's version of logic, which only reinforces my doubts about pop culture. After all--Bush, Gore, Aguilera, Spears, Backstreet, Sync, Eminem ... the public has such good collective taste. I mean, reality television, the "Anna Nicole" show ... just stop and think about it for a minute.

And when you figure that one out, try the point you blew so badly above. The one about airtime, MTV, content, &c.

So when you figure out the one about the collective taste of the public, think about what that means in terms of a performer who relies on controversy to stay famous and a musician who relies on talent and skill. I do find it strange though, that you call him pop...Well, what would you prefer I call him? The King of Rock and Roll?A group like Nirvana can get massive coverage from MTV in the 90'sWhen you stop and think that musicians such as Herbie Hancock are holding Kurt Cobain's songwriting up as a "standard" (as in "Nirvana set a songwriting-quality standard"), I would say that Nirvana's musical merits achieved warranted their fame. Nirvana changed rock and roll and also pop songwriting. Eminem is pop because he changes nothing except the crass factor. Eminem is pop because his merit in the pop culture comes not from his musical prowess but from his political controversy and his brand of acting and performance art.

When Eminem can write a song as good as "Negative Creep" or "All Apologies", then we'll talk about Eminem as a musician.

Ever watch an American car race? Go fast, turn left?

Ever watch a proper auto race? Where you actually have to drive the car around various corners and so forth?

That's about a fair comparison. Eminem is like watching WOW or Outlaw races at SIR during the summer. Nirvana? That's a little more like F1 in Monaco.

Or we can look at it this way: Nirvana raised the standard, set a higher demand of quality. Eminem lowers the standard.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Tiassa,

I can see your point about System of a Down, I just can't see them grouped with Puddle of Mudd. What about Tool, or Rage Against the Machine? Both are very popular, but i don't think that they fit into this group. What's your opinion on these bands?

tiassa, the more i read your posts, the more i think that everyone who doesnt agree with you, in your eyes are stupid or dumb or a kid or whatever..just because i dont agree with you doesnt make me any of that..you keep on saying about eminem not good as a lyricist, the music isnt worth it blahblah, but just get it through your thick skull for once that that is a matter of TASTE. is that so hard to understand for you?? i dont like many music either, like one friend of mine listens to the kelly family:( , but i dont bash her for that by saying they have no talent, because that is my opinion, and she obviously thinks different about it, who am i to say that she listens to the wrong music? for your information i hardly like any 'pop' music..i actually despise it. so therefore i hardly ever listen to the radio either..plus they dont play eminem here on the radio :mad: ;) , well it was nice to have this discussion, but i dont feel like keeping this on and on, obviously you got your opinion, and i got mine, and i just cant agree with you, and im getting tired to hear that im a kid or stupid or everything and that i have to defend myself just because i listen to eminem, and that that would mean i justify violence or something...really the funny thing is actually that i got a gay friend and that person likes eminems music and doesnt feel offended and im a woman and i dont feel offended by his music either..well im stopping now, i have some people to kill and some gays and women to beat up so i have my hands full for today:p ;)

Originally posted by tiassa
Convey the emotion of the lyrics to the listener? You know, I agree with Dee Snider, who once said, "Somehow Gee whiz and golly just don't cut it," but you've got to be kidding me.
What emotion is Eminem conveying?


The emotion of the character in the song. I thought we already went over this...Oh that's right, we did but you just chose to ignore it.:rolleyes:

On the first count, we can be glad. On the second count, no. He's writing lyrics and other people are making music for him. I thought we'd been through this.
We have, both justme and I, told you that Eminem produced his last album. Let's see...he writes his own lyrics, and produces his own album, hmmmm...

That's what I tell people who buy Eminem because they say they want something good. Of course, I don't have to say it often. Very few people buy Eminem under the pretense that it's good. Under the pretense that it's cool, maybe. But not many under the pretense it's good.
I'm sorry, but your clueless. You showed earlier that you don't even listen to his music, you just read excerpts of his lyrics. Now your an expert on his fans????How the hell would you know why people listen to his songs?

Apparently they don't. If you criticize Eminem, you get threatened.

Oh, wait, it's not really a threat, is it?

Whatever.

A lame attempt at trash talking by Eminem, doesn't equal a threat. Once again.., the statement "Keep booing little girl, I'll hit a man with glasses", is hardly a reason for Moby to fear for his safety. I'm sure Moby is hiding in fear over that statement.:rolleyes:

You're right. Nobody in this topic has mentioned the quality of his lyrics, the emotions he conveys, the context of his lyrics, or anything like that.

Never mind.



You have turned into an idiot tiassa, my comment about "artistic statement", was sarcasm. I was asking you what kind of "artistic statement" Eminem could ever make musically, that would please you. My guess is nothing...

(Seriously: is it forgetfulness? How about it's not that important? Or maybe you're a moron? People keep telling me about the lyrics and how I'm reading them wrong. What artistic statement do you think? Really? I mean, what, do I really have to put up with this from you, too? All parodies, satires, commentaries, and so forth aside, is it really your goal to demonstrate the correctness of all the badmouthing I've done of Eminem's fans? I mean, come on ... really, give me a freaking break! )

Here, let's put it this way: If Eminem would like to make a better artistic statement than, "Show me the money and watch me strut 'cuz I"m really that stupid!" then he's going to have to use his brain every once in a while. I might be more sympathetic to Marshall except for the fact that I saw the bit with the damn dog puppet. I mean, really. And then here sit his fans claiming misunderstandings and he didn't really mean that and it's not that big a deal and it's not really a threat. And now, with the artistic vision in jeopardy because those who think him violent or hateful are obviously wrong, although we see the spilling of the parodies and satires into real life as he spreads his machismo shite too thin, and suddenly the question is, "What artistic vision?" I think that was the damn question his critics asked!


Don't twist my words around tiassa, you knew what I was saying.

Also, for someone who hasn't even listen to his songs, but instead reads little excerpts, you sure comment alot about his songs. Pick a damn song and actually LISTEN to it, instead of talking out of your ass about songs you've never even heard.

Your like those morons who protest a movie before it even comes out, or before they've even seen it. Your believe that his songs are about "Show me the money and watch me strut 'cuz I"m really that stupid!", as you put it, shows how clueless you are to this topic.

You didn't understand that "I remember" was about an ex-friend named Everlast who bad-mouth him. You probably didn't know until we told you, that "Stan" was a message about obsession, I doubt you understand that "Cleaning out my Closet", is a song about his past and how his mother who has munchausen syndrome, used to make him sick for sympathy, or how she abused him and tried to take his money...

Your the worst kind critic tiassa, you speak from ill-informed arrogance, instead of actually knowledge. I was no fan of Nirvana or many of the derivatives that came after in the so-called "grunge music era", BUT I would never insult Nirvana's fans and call them unintelligent for liking them.

I would suggest that you learn a little more about the recording industry. I know it's easier to deal with your alleged point if you undertake an either/or. But it's not one or the other. The discredit you do unto other musicians here is stunning. Think of it this way: there is a top 100. Okay? Easy enough? Now, that top 100 comes from about 500 possibilities. In addition to those 500 possibilities are 10,000 more possibilities that you, as a radio listener, or as an MTV viewer, will never experience. Why? Because Interscope and Sony and A&M and all those record labels make sure that they don't. Take a look at the tours they send him on, take a look at the promotional expense of keeping him in front of the public. Once they decide to go forward with a project like that, it's a stiff sell. I mean, really: Nirvana was good, but were they that good? Steve Albini got paid $3 million to engineer Nirvana's In Utero. The whole production of Nirvana's Bleach cost $600. Eminem need not be a member of the Monkees to have been propelled by the will of his record label at the expense of other hard-working musicians. It happens all the time.

The only thing that's stunning is your arrogance...

Eminem paid his dues for YEARS, and the only reason he got signed was because Dr. Dre took him under his wing. His success is due to the fact that people like his music.

Are there talented hard-working rock musicians, singers, rappers, and country artists, who still haven't made it big, YES, and that's a shame. But blaming it on another hard-working artist (Eminem) who spent years performing, and trying to get his foot in the door just like those mentioned, is flatout wrong.

It's funny how you ignore the radio play and MTV videos that Nirvana got, and blame them for Eminem's success... Nirvana actually had MORE videos when you consider that MTV actually played videos throughout the day in the early 90's, and now they hardly even play them anymore.:cool:

I respect those who liked Nirvana, because I felt they had a message, all I ask is you do the same...

Actually, people in Seattle generally do the smart thing: we listen to CD's. We learned a long time ago that the listener's only job is to listen and pretend to enjoy it. Radio is best used in Seattle for baseball games in the car.
Exact same thing I do out here in LA.

Are you intentionally missing the point or is this one of those things I get to hold against Eminem fans?
Your the one who keeps bringing MTV up, perhaps you missed your OWN point...:D

This paragraph tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about. Think about it: some bands are just popular because they write good music. Some people need their spotlight extended by specials about the controversy surrounding this or that lyric.
:rolleyes: As I said before, Eminem was respected lyrically BEFORE he had controversy. Does controversy help his record sells..,YES, but your wrong if you think that's the reason for his success.

Nope. Nirvana's success was specifically due to being in the right place at the right time. Six months earlier or later and it might not have gone. But one thing they didn't need was MTV sitting there running half-hour essential advertisements for Nirvana. Some bands become popular based on their musical merits. Hello? Of course, I understand if the concept confuses you

What the hell is up with you and MTV??? They barely even play videos anymore. Nirvana had MUCH MORE video play than Eminem has, yet I would never say that MTV was the reason for their success. Here's a little about how Eminem gained his fame...

He took up rapping in high school before dropping out in ninth grade, joining ad hoc groups Basement Productions, the New Jacks, and D12. The newly named Eminem released a raw debut album in 1997 through independent label FBT. Infinite was poorly received, however, with Eminem earning unfavourable comparisons to leading rappers such as Nas and AZ. His determination to succeed was given a boost by a prominent feature in Source's Unsigned Hype column, and he gained revenge on his former critics when he won the Wake Up Show's Freestyle Performer Of The Year award, and finished runner-up in Los Angeles' annual Rap Olympics. The following year's The Slim Shady EP, named after his sinister alter-ego, featured some vitriolic attacks on his detractors. The stand-out track, "Just Don't Give A Fuck", became a highly popular underground hit, and led to guest appearances on MC Shabaam Sahddeq's "Five Star Generals" single and Kid Rock's Devil Without A Cause set.
As a result, Eminem was signed to Aftermath Records by label boss Dr. Dre, who adopted the young rapper as his prot‚g‚ and acted as co-producer on Eminem's full-length debut.


You're right. Nobody told me it was no big deal. Nobody told me it wasn't even a threat. Nobody told me that Moby started it. Whatever you say.

This is the thing that kills me in this: I am arguing an exceptionally tenuous position. Literally, I'm having fun because Eminem decided to be a two-bit prick in public. In case you hadn't noticed, people have been complaining about my don't like-don't listen policy. Apparently I'm not being fair to Marshall by not spending money on his albums and not wanting to listen to him. However, what kills me is that there's a couple of people in here behaving like absolute children. First defending, minimizing, justifying, Eminem's behavior. And now this, "No one is trying to justify ...."

What-ever.


Your the only one acting like a child here tiassa. I already said (about a million times now...) that what Eminem did at the VMAs was LAME and I didn't condone it. Explaining the reasons he did it, isn't the same as justifying it.

He's an artist at the freakin MTV awards, THATS IT, you act like he should be Mother Theresa.

You must hate Ozzy Osbourne, the Ramones, Guns n Roses, etc...In your eyes, they must have been punks and their fans must be unintelligent.

Nobody in this world is perfect. We all have flaws, and do stupid things. Holding Eminem to some "Godly" standard, where he must never do wrong is retarded at best...

Seriously, if I ever needed any greater proof of the quality of Eminem's fans, I think I pretty much got it. The logic I'm looking at is about on par with the Bush administration's version of logic, which only reinforces my doubts about pop culture. After all--Bush, Gore, Aguilera, Spears, Backstreet, Sync, Eminem ... the public has such good collective taste. I mean, reality television, the "Anna Nicole" show ... just stop and think about it for a minute.

And when you figure that one out, try the point you blew so badly above. The one about airtime, MTV, content, &c.

So when you figure out the one about the collective taste of the public, think about what that means in terms of a performer who relies on controversy to stay famous and a musician who relies on talent and skill.

Your all over the place tiassa... and saying my logic is on par with Bush is a low blow.:(

The Beatles, Stones, Dylan, Clapton, NIRVANA, all had mainstream success, and I still respect their music. The fact that you lump Eminem in with Spears and the Backstreet Boys, just because of success, shows that you have no idea what you talking about. Eminem writes and produces his albums, those two don't. His music has a message, theirs doesn't.

Well, what would you prefer I call him? The King of Rock and Roll?

LOL!! If you don't know the difference between Pop music and Rap music, then this discussion is pointless.

Do you not see the difference between 2 Pac and Britney Spears, Public Enemy and N'Sync, or Nas and Avril Lavenge??? And no Nelly's music is not real rap...

When you stop and think that musicians such as Herbie Hancock are holding Kurt Cobain's songwriting up as a "standard" (as in "Nirvana set a songwriting-quality standard"), I would say that Nirvana's musical merits achieved warranted their fame. Nirvana changed rock and roll and also pop songwriting. Eminem is pop because he changes nothing except the crass factor. Eminem is pop because his merit in the pop culture comes not from his musical prowess but from his political controversy and his brand of acting and performance art.

I totally agree that Nirvana changed the rock music industry, but holding Eminem to that kind of standard this early in his career is unfair. Even though I didn't care for their music, I still recognize Nirvana as one of the top 10 most influencial bands in rock history.

One of the best articles I have read in the past regarding this very subject, was done by Spin magazine. It lists the top 50 greatest bands of all-time and there influence on the artists of today. I agreed with pretty much all their choices, here's some of them...
1) Beatles
Influenced: Beastie Boys, Blur, Oasis, the Chemical Brothers, Steve Earle, the Flaming Lips, Elliott Smith, Aimee Mann, Elvis Costello, Public Enemy, De La Soul, Jimi Hendrix, all boy bands -- oh, forget it: everyone!
Classic albums: Revolver (Capitol, 1966) and Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Capitol, 1967)
2) Ramones - And my personal favorite band of all-time
Influenced: Green Day, Blink-182, Sum-41, U2, the Offspring, Sleater-Kinney, the Donnas, Black Flag, the Clash, the Sex Pistols -- oh, forget it: everyone!
Classic album: Ramones (Sire, 1976)
3) LED ZEPPELIN
Influenced: Tool, Limp Bizkit, Tori Amos, P. Diddy, Pearl Jam, Jane's Addiction, Soundgarden, Jeff Buckley
Classic album: Led Zeppelin IV (1971, Atlantic)
5) NIRVANA - No arguement from me
Influenced: The Smashing Pumpkins, Korn, Everclear, Bush, Foo Fighters, Staind, At the Drive-In, Hole, Garbage, Nickelback, Silverchair, so-called Generation X
Classic album: Nevermind (Geffen, 1991)
8) Public Enemy - What? A Rap group?? What will tiassa think?:D
Influenced: N.W.A/Dr. Dre, Rage Against the Machine, the Chemical Brothers, DJ Shadow, Dead Prez, Tricky, the Coup
Classic album: It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back (Def Jam, 1988)
9) Rolling Stones
Influenced: Aerosmith, Black Crowes, Stone Temple Pilots, Buckcherry, Liz Phair, Ryan Adams, Jon Spencer Blues Explosion
Classic album: Exile on Main St. (Virgin, 1972)
10) Beastie Boys - UH OH! another rap group....
Influenced: Eminem, Kid Rock, Limp Bizkit, Sum-41, skaters, snowboarders, Jackass, etc.
Classic album: Licensed to Ill (Def Jam/Columbia, 1986)
14) Run DMC - yet another rap group...
Influenced: Beastie Boys, Aerosmith, L.L. Cool J, Public Enemy, N.W.A, Korn, all rap-rock, all Adidas-wearers
Classic album: Raising Hell (Profile, 1986)
23) N.W.A. - hmmm...,another rap group...
Influenced: Eminem, Snoop Dogg, Wu-Tang Clan, Jay-Z, M.O.P., P. Diddy, the Notorious B.I.G., 2Pac, Axl Rose, Geto Boys
Classic album: Straight Outta Compton (Ruthless/ Priority, 1988)
44) Outkast
Influenced: Goodie Mob, Ludacris, N.E.R.D, Nappy Roots
Classic album: Stankonia (Laface/Arista, 2000)

http://www.spin.com/new/features/videofeatures/february2002top50.html

YES, this is just one magazine's opinion, but it does show that others see the influence and respect the contributions rap has made to the music world.

The problem with this debate is that you obviously hate rap, and think it's simply to produce, therefore any fan of Eminem's must have low standards, in your eyes. The fact though, is that good Rapping skills takes years of practice and learning, just like a poet, afterall Rap is muscial poetry.

When Eminem can write a song as good as "Negative Creep" or "All Apologies", then we'll talk about Eminem as a musician.

I doubt you listened to the song suggestions I gave you earlier, so what's the point. You comment like you have heard many of his songs when you admit you haven't.

That's about a fair comparison. Eminem is like watching WOW or Outlaw races at SIR during the summer. Nirvana? That's a little more like F1 in Monaco.

Or we can look at it this way: Nirvana raised the standard, set a higher demand of quality. Eminem lowers the standard.

I respect Nirvana's music, just like I respect Eminem's music. :cool:

tiassa, the more i read your posts, the more i think that everyone who doesnt agree with you, in your eyes are stupid or dumb or a kid or whatever..just because i dont agree with you doesnt make me any of that..you keep on saying about eminem not good as a lyricist, the music isnt worth it blahblah, but just get it through your thick skull for once that that is a matter of TASTE. is that so hard to understand for you?? i dont like many music either, like one friend of mine listens to the kelly family , but i dont bash her for that by saying they have no talent, because that is my opinion, and she obviously thinks different about it, who am i to say that she listens to the wrong music? for your information i hardly like any 'pop' music..i actually despise it. so therefore i hardly ever listen to the radio either..plus they dont play eminem here on the radio , well it was nice to have this discussion, but i dont feel like keeping this on and on, obviously you got your opinion, and i got mine, and i just cant agree with you, and im getting tired to hear that im a kid or stupid or everything and that i have to defend myself just because i listen to eminem, and that that would mean i justify violence or something...really the funny thing is actually that i got a gay friend and that person likes eminems music and doesnt feel offended and im a woman and i dont feel offended by his music either..well im stopping now, i have some people to kill and some gays and women to beat up so i have my hands full for today

Couldn't agree more, great post.:cool:

1- true 'rap', by definition, is not music

2- that point aside, eminem and his style of rap are indeed pop-oriented, if not pop per se.


pop means popular. it is, and always has been, as simple as that.
if you can't understand it, get aids and die.

Originally posted by ChristCrusher
1- true 'rap', by definition, is not music

2- that point aside, eminem and his style of rap are indeed pop-oriented, if not pop per se.


pop means popular. it is, and always has been, as simple as that.
if you can't understand it, get aids and die.

1)Rap is by definition music..
1. The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.
2. Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.


2) I disagree, the Beatles were popular, yet not many would classify them in the pop catergory. The same could be said for most rock, rap, and country artists. Mozart is extremely popular, but I would never classify him in the Pop music category either...

The emotion of the character in the song. I thought we already went over this...Oh that's right, we did but you just chose to ignore it.Which character was he playing at the VMA? Just remind me.We have, both justme and I, told you that Eminem produced his last album. Let's see...he writes his own lyrics, and produces his own album, hmmmm...Both Justme and you. Like I said, write Eminem's company. Maybe after they find out about the horrible conspiracy at Barnes & Noble to hurt Eminem, he can go down there and threaten them.You showed earlier that you don't even listen to his music, you just read excerpts of his lyricsHey, don't hold my right to not listen to Eminem against me. What, are you trying to force me to buy his albums?Now your an expert on his fans????Never claimed to be. I'm just telling it like I see it. You know, being honest about what I see. Of course, this is not something that people should do? Should we, instead, make a huge artistic statement out of it?How the hell would you know why people listen to his songs?By listening to the people I know who listen to him talk about him.

Duh.

If you ever want to know why people do something, just pay attention to the people who are doing it and the reasons they give for their actions and choices.

Is it that tough?A lame attempt at trash talking by Eminem, doesn't equal a threat. Oh, macho bravado. That's right.Once again.., the statement "Keep booing little girl, I'll hit a man with glasses", is hardly a reason for Moby to fear for his safety. I'm sure Moby is hiding in fear over that statementI highly doubt that.

Stop and think about this. I watched this happen on the street: a woman took a swing at her boyfriend on a crowded city street before God, a hundred witnesses, and a couple of cops, who did nothing. The guy restrained himself, and the woman kept coming. It was only after the guy decided that he might have to defend himself that the police interfered.

So think about this: If I look at my girlfriend and shut her up by saying, "Keep booing, little girl, I'll hit a woman," I go to jail.

Perhaps that's something that doesn't happen in the world of Eminem's fans. But violence is generally looked down upon by intelligent people, and while I don't think Eminem needs to be jailed for his words, I think you'll end up eating yours when the full implications of what you're advocating become clear to you.

And don't worry, there's nothing I can do to make that clear to you. Rather, on some future occasion when someone threatens you, you'll have to figure out what to say when they look at the intervening party and say, "It wasn't a threat."

Keep minimizing the situation. I'm sure that process is of some use to your ego. But the simple fact remains that Eminem crossed a line with his words, and the question that remains unanswered in this topic is one I saw a few days ago about whether his behavior was "in character" or not. However, when we stop and think about how simple it apparently is supposed to be to understand his lyrics and his act, and when we stop and think that Eminem doesn't seem to know when the act stops and reality begins, I think minimization such as the sort you're after is only a justification of the self. It's hard to be a fan of someone so distasteful, and especially when they disagree with your moral position. That's why I never understood why people would make excuses for him. Are such methods of handling conflict acceptable to you? Between threats and macho bravado, I don't see much room for solutions.

Or, like one Eminem fan (female) puts it: "Yeah, it's pretty stupid. But he's so cute!"

Anything for a cutie.I was asking you what kind of "artistic statement" Eminem could ever make musically, that would please you.This from someone making excuses for threats of violence?I was asking you what kind of "artistic statement" Eminem could ever make musically, that would please you. My guess is nothing...You know, many people who make artistic statements about controversial issues do a little more than rehash them for rhythmical glory. I think if Marshall were to make an artistic statement that bore some personal integrity, I would probably be somewhat pleased no matter how ridiculous it is. Yet we're supposed to believe it's just an artistic statement when the artist himself cannot separate the statement from reality? Seems to me that we're awarding Marshall too much credit for intellect. I mean, it seems that all his fans understand his artistic statement but he doesn't.Don't twist my words around tiassa, you knew what I was saying.Wow, that was desperate. I'm sure you can come up with a better response than that.but instead reads little excerpts, you sure comment alot about his songs.Well, I seem to recall that I read through lyrical selections that other people offered. I didn't have to go out and find them.

Duh.Pick a damn song and actually LISTEN to it, instead of talking out of your ass about songs you've never even heard.You mean like the times I asked for people's recommendations and didn't get any, and then went out and downloaded the song "Without Me" and then offered my considerations thereof?

You mean like never doing the things that I've already done?

:rolleyes: Your like those morons who protest a movie before it even comes out, or before they've even seen it.I think you're quite a ways off on this one.

• I didn't complain about the album before it came out
• I didn't complain about Eminem until he decided to threaten someone
• It is not my fault if what Eminem's fans insist of reality is not apparentYou didn't understand that "I remember" was about an ex-friend named Everlast who bad-mouth him.But I do understand that homosexuality and slang words referring to it are used toward negative characterizations.

It's kind of like saying, "No, I don't have a problem with homosexuality," and then turning around and saying that someone you don't like is a homo faggot pussy. Tell me, what does homo or faggot have to do with his problems with Everlast? You probably didn't know until we told you, that "Stan" was a message about obsessionUntil Eminem threatened someone publicly, I had no reason to care.I doubt you understand that "Cleaning out my Closet", is a song about his past and how his mother who has munchausen syndrome, used to make him sick for sympathy, or how she abused him and tried to take his money...Well, I'm not one to criticize someone for speaking ill of one's parents. Sometimes it's deserved. But then you go and tell me that he's angry about his mother's mental illness?

I mean, as I read through, I can see that he is legitimately angry. But the method of expression is pretty weak. It seems to me that his repeated mantra through such songs is, "I'm an asshole, but I'm misunderstood so you're gonna enjoy me being an asshole 'cuz I don't have to change."

It's kind of like mystical and religious ideas of repentance. It just doesn't ring genuine. A little more integrity of perspective throughout the lyrics and he would have had it.Your the worst kind critic tiassa, you speak from ill-informed arrogance, instead of actually knowledge. I was no fan of Nirvana or many of the derivatives that came after in the so-called "grunge music era", BUT I would never insult Nirvana's fans and call them unintelligent for liking them. Why not? Most of the people who made Nevermind a best-seller were complete idiots and liked Nirvana because it was cool to like Nirvana.

In the meantime, wouldn't it be easier to be insulting if you were defending a more coherent, more educated, more defensible philosophic exposition?

And, yes, Nirvana took heat for their lyrics. But the one thing they never did was threaten their critics with bodily violence.Eminem paid his dues for YEARS, and the only reason he got signed was because Dr. Dre took him under his wing.Two points:

• Many musicians better than Eminem pay their dues for longer periods and don't have a Dr Dre to take them under his wing
• His success is due to the fact that given the limited options put before them, people preferred to listen to it

How long do you think he would have languished without Dre? Would Dre really have picked him up if he didn't see exploitable commercial value in it? But blaming it on another hard-working artist (Eminem) who spent years performing, and trying to get his foot in the door just like those mentioned, is flatout wrong.Who's blaming Eminem for that?

Why do you consistently try to change the terms of what's being debated? When has anyone ever proposed blaming the problems of the music industry on Eminem? Noting that he's part of that problem? Sure. But it's the way of the business. Getting the extra boosts can be part of the game, but what you do with the boosts is very important.It's funny how you ignore the radio play and MTV videos that Nirvana got, and blame them for Eminem's success... Funny, that. As the pop movement of the late 1980s wound down, MTV started investing money in radio stations to get them to play alternative music.Nirvana actually had MORE videos when you consider that MTV actually played videos throughout the day in the early 90's, and now they hardly even play them anymoreThey played videos throughout the day in the 1990s? I'll tell you what I remember fro 1992 (the year Nirvana broke): 1 episode "Headbanger's Ball" each week, MTV Spring Break was already on the scene, and "Yo! MTV Raps" got four hours a day airtime. Game shows, cartoons, news specials. Sure, it wasn't the same then as it is now. But if you're asserting that MTV's primary outlet played videos throughout the day in 1992, you're crocked. And, furthermore, when we stop and think about the deliberation of that programming: when they played videos, they played rap and dance-pop more often than not.I respect those who liked Nirvana, because I felt they had a message, all I ask is you do the same...I will respect those who like Eminem when those who like Eminem can coherently state why to a degree that transcends the reasoning of a pre-teen. I will respect Eminem itself when it has a more coherent message.Exact same thing I do out here in LA.Why? If you like the music on the radio? Or is it that Eminem is the only thing on the radio you like?

It's kind of like Eminem transferring the idea from whether it's done at all to "I'm not the first". I mean, who actually has blamed Eminem for the state of modern pop music? He may be symptomatic, but he's not the cause.

So is it that Eminem is something that's on the radio that you happen to like? I have a long list of favorite artists who reaped massive benefit from payola and other scandals. But they were musicians, interested in music, not would-be icons worried about image.Your the one who keeps bringing MTV up, perhaps you missed your OWN point...On some occasions, I really do want to let this settle to the point of two people discussing opinions, but then I see things like this and it makes me seriously wonder what the point would be. Let's take a look at it, shall we?

•_ stop and think about all the bands that the public, literally, cannot deny. The bands that get famous without MTV specials on the lyrical content. (Tiassa)

• Does getting airtime on MTV mean that the artist has no lyrical content. (Static)

• Are you intentionally missing the point or is this one of those things I get to hold against Eminem fans? (Tiassa)

• Your the one who keeps bringing MTV up, perhaps you missed your OWN point... (Static)

To be honest, I'm still confused by how you reached the notion of no MTV=no lyrical content. That idea wasn't a part of the discussion until you introduced it. Do I need to follow that vein of the conversation further back? Or can you figure it out from there?

• Some bands create art such as a song and video which are popular
• Some band create such a song and video which remains popular because the network runs "news" specials in support of side issues related to those bands

Easy enough? Some musicians are popular because they're musicians. Some pop stars are popular for reasons only peripherally-related to their music.As I said before, Eminem was respected lyrically BEFORE he had controversy. Does controversy help his record sells..,YES, but your wrong if you think that's the reason for his success.Between payola and controversy, I would say that's the most part of his success. There is the "dirty joke" quality to it, too, as noted in one of the articles provided.

Sit down with musicians who compose music, play instruments, and know their way around a recording studio.

Respected lyrically? Okay. I won't argue with that.

One of the problems critics, art snobs, aficionados, and others have with things such as Eminem's "lyrical respect" is that they're not respected musically, but for their comic value. Eminem has respect the same way Andrew Dice Clay did. If there was more thematic consistency in his images, more proper use of the factors assembled in the lyrics, you would see the whole of the artistic community out in his defense, and despite what the lyrics may or may not have said in that case, Moby probably wouldn't have opened his mouth. Like the Margot Kidder line. Why is it that Eminem's fans are of no help on this one? Lyrical respect? Why? Because he can make words rhyme? Woo-hoo. So can most people, much less most musicians, artists, or rappers. Beyond that, he might have a knack for odd frames of reference, but lyrical respect because he can rhyme? That the lyrics need not be coherent or demonstrate any understanding of the words employed apparently is not a consideration related to lyrical quality? If Eminem was lyrically respected among his peers, I would say that reflects poorly on the community, and does not stand as a credit to Eminem.What the hell is up with you and MTV??? They barely even play videos anymore. Nirvana had MUCH MORE video play than Eminem has, yet I would never say that MTV was the reason for their success.Gosh, you don't think MTV airplay affects record sales at all, do you? It's just an advertising outlet. One of the problems I have with that kind of "music" culture is that it is so damn narrow.Here's a little about how Eminem gained his fame...Technically, compared to other musicians, he seems to have had it easy career-wise. One badly-received album, a couple of contests, and some help from a superstar who was looking for a new face for his label. Geez: Jeff Keith of Tesla got noticed at a karaoke bar in Tahiti, belting out "I Can't Drive 55".I already said (about a million times now...) that what Eminem did at the VMAs was LAME and I didn't condone it. Explaining the reasons he did it, isn't the same as justifying it.Oh, it's so lame, but that Moby is just such an awful liar, yadda, yadda, yadda ....He's an artist at the freakin MTV awards, THATS IT, you act like he should be Mother Theresa.Do you need to make such severe polarizations in order to have an inkling of a point?

He can say what he wants in defense of his lyrics. But if he's going to threaten people, he doesn't have much of a defense any more.You must hate Ozzy Osbourne, the Ramones, Guns n Roses, etc...In your eyes, they must have been punks and their fans must be unintelligent.Actually, I do respect a certain amount of social deviance in artists. But Ozzy was better when he was just a guy banging out songs, such as with Black Sabbath. The Ramones? I have to admit I've been fortunate on the count of the Ramones. GNR? Duh. I mean, sure, they can write the occasional good song, but I don't recall ever having spent my money on a GNR album.Nobody in this world is perfect. We all have flaws, and do stupid things. Holding Eminem to some "Godly" standard, where he must never do wrong is retarded at best...If you weren't so prone to overstating the situation, you might have a point. Of course nobody's perfect. That includes, for instance, Moby. If Moby is so wrong, why is it left to Marshall's fans to make that statement? If Marshall knows Moby's wrong, why not show it instead of just shoot off at the mouth?

Holding Eminem to a "Godly" standard? How about basic decency and civility?

You forfeit much credit that might otherwise bolster your arguments by putting them in such an unnecessarily-polarized context.

As soon as you demonstrate who is holding Eminem to a godly standard of perfection where he cannot do wrong, I'll stop thinking that you're retarded at best.

Fair enough?Your all over the place tiassa... and saying my logic is on par with Bush is a low blow.Not my problem if the considerations you undertake confuse you.

Furthermore, what am I supposed to think of such low-brow "logic"? "Nobody is trying to justify Eminem's behavior, we're just putting it into context." What context is that? A context that establishes the propriety of Eminem's behavior? Why don't you explain what context you're trying to achieve. Seriously, if you don't want to be viewed like a Bush, don't make excuses like one.The fact that you lump Eminem in with Spears and the Backstreet Boys, just because of success, shows that you have no idea what you talking about. Eminem writes and produces his albums, those two don't.Being present does not equal production, or else Spears and Backstreet would produce their albums, too.

Now then:

• Beatles: New standards in songwriting. New standards in sound engineering and recording technique.
• Stones: Standards in songwriting and performance.
• Dylan: Standards in lyricism; new low standard in vocal talent
• Clapton: Standards in performance capability
• Nirvana: Standards in songwriting
• Eminem: Standards in _____? (Obscenity? Free expression? Poetry? Lyrical excellence?)His music has a message, theirs doesn't.Their music has messages, too. I just laugh at those messages.LOL!! If you don't know the difference between Pop music and Rap music, then this discussion is pointless.Funny, as I recall, someone suggesting that Eminem be called King of Rock and Roll is what set Moby off in the first place.Do you not see the difference between 2 Pac and Britney Spears, Public Enemy and N'Sync, or Nas and Avril Lavenge??? And no Nelly's music is not real rap...2 Pac? Now I might come to respect 2 Pac simply because in all this time, nobody has tried to tell me that he's anything more than a rap-based Elvis myth. I was more a fan of his mother. However, nobody has tried to establish 2 Pac as anything more than an immediate expression of various concepts that I do and don't disagree with. It's sad that he died, or did he? But, anyway, it's sad that he died, but you know, such is the way of macho bravado. And since 2 Pac didn't get up on TV in front of nearly a billion people and threaten someone for criticizing him, I have never felt compelled to give a rat's behind about 2 Pac.

Public Enemy gets my respect because without them, there might be no market for Eminem to perform in.

P.E. got limited airplay on MTV, and virtually none on commercial radio. 2 Pac got limited airplay on MTV and maybe a little more on commercial radio. Spears, N'Sync, and others get massive airplay on both MTV and commercial radio. So does Eminem. So did Pearl Jam, for that matter, but we see that some of those musicians gave a rat's behind about music and the consumer experience while the others tend to ride the wave and enjoy it.I totally agree that Nirvana changed the rock music industry, but holding Eminem to that kind of standard this early in his career is unfair.Why unfair? Nirvana was that good early on.

However, the point is taken, even though I find it misdirected.One of the best articles I have read in the past regarding this very subject, was done by Spin magazine. Nifty list. It's also from Spin magazine. I won't complain, but I will make that simple point. Your commentary seems very pointed, too. For instance, you continue your distortion of the issues.

What would Tiassa think? Tiassa has nothing personal against rap in general. It's just that, having stood in the trenches alongside the rappers and defended the artistic merits of the art form, I would like to see more actual art in the form than hype. Public Enemy? Saw 'em live, twice.

I'll try to let you know when Mojo or Q do their Top 50 lists, but notice how many of the bands you've listed are modern?but it does show that others see the influence and respect the contributions rap has made to the music world.My problem with Rap comes from the number of rappers who waste the art-form. It's kind of like advertising 2001: A Space Odyssey and delivering Deep Throat VII.The problem with this debate is that you obviously hate rapYour attempted simplification of the issues, in addition to being incorrect, only attests to your need to have the issues simplified.and think it's simply to produce,What? Generally speaking, it is.

Try being an engineer on a rap album: Okay, record the vox, bring in the samples, throw it all into an Apple G4 and run it through the application. I have more respect for the DJ's than I do the production of rap. For instance, as much as I enjoy Kid Sensation's "Prisoner of Ignorance", I'm not going to pretend that its production values anywhere meet those of the Beastie Boys'. Check Your Head was a great musical album, and Paul's Boutique is the only album of its kind anywhere in rapdom or popular music.

Now stop and think about being an engineer on another album. I'm thinking of the time when the engineers were not allowed to listen to the sounds, were shielded from seeing the performers, had no idea when to start and stop recording, and could only figure out that anything was happening by watching the needles on the board. (Incidentally, part of that album turned up on the soundtrack to the video game Tekken 2, but that's almost a worthless point except for its aside value.)

It's a different ballgame when sound fidelity and not pop effect are the goals of the session.I doubt you listened to the song suggestions I gave you earlier, so what's the point. You comment like you have heard many of his songs when you admit you haven't. I keep asking for Eminem's most impressive songs, but everything I keep listening to hints at slick, package production, a dependence on other people's work. You keep telling me about his production credits and I keep telling you to let them know that Eminem is being libeled by the people selling his albums.

Try this.

Consider:

• A photograph
• A collage
• A mosaic

Now, this is what it seems like to me. Someone has taken a photograph, but Eminem is supposed to have credit for it. From a bunch of photographs come a collage which is assembled. While Eminem legally credits other photogs (in this case, I'm thinking of guest musicians), his fans pretend that he is taking the photographs. Yet I feel like I'm looking at this collage, being told how well he can paste pictures together, am being asked by his fans to think of him as the primary photographer, and furthermore am being asked by those fans to think of the collage as if it was a proper mosaic.I respect Nirvana's music, just like I respect Eminem's music. And it's a free country. :rolleyes:

--Tiassa :cool:

Justmethe more i read your posts, the more i think that everyone who doesnt agree with you, in your eyes are stupid or dumb or a kid or whateverIt's not that they disagree with me. But I would hope for a more educated and civilized disagreement than justifying threats of violence.just because i dont agree with you doesnt make me any of thatTrue. See prior paragraph.you keep on saying about eminem not good as a lyricist, the music isnt worth it blahblah, but just get it through your thick skull for once that that is a matter of TASTE. is that so hard to understand for you??Not at all. But two notes apply here:

• Eminem's lyrical worth is not established; help me out. Explain the Margot Kidder line in terms of Eminem's lyrical genius.
•_Good is not a matter of taste; it is quantifiable according to convention. That something is popular does not equal a convention of quality.

Whether or not you like Eminem's music is, indeed, a matter of taste. Whether it is good music is not merely a matter of taste. What guitar sustains best? Which bends? Will a Les Paul be too dominant in its midrange and need to be mixed around the synths? How the hell do we make this sound without burning down the studio? (Note: Boiled in Lead, a Minneapolis worldbeat band, recorded their song "Red Lights and Neon" with the vocals going through 88 separate tube preamps; the heat from the gear nearly burned down the studio.)

Can I turn on a beat box? Now what happens if I loop four seconds of this horn section over and over? Hey, that's catchy. Now all I need is to rap over the top of it. A couple of sound effects will finish it out.

A good lyric can be independent of good music. Elements of good music may exist independently, but good music is its own entity.like one friend of mine listens to the kelly family, but i dont bash her for that by saying they have no talent, because that is my opinion, and she obviously thinks different about it, who am i to say that she listens to the wrong music?Now we've got an interesting way of looking at it.

For instance, take the lyrical pop divas and R&B queens out there. I don't knock their vocal talent. But I'm not going to call them musicians in the same breath as Paul McCartney, Kevin Shields, or Brian Wilson.

I know someone who can sing and dance in Broadway-quality theatre. But aside from finding her pitch on a piano, she doesn't play musical instruments aside from her voice. She does not compose. She does not record. She does not consider herself a musician, but rather an actor, a dancer, a singer, and a performer. While musical elements do enter her work, she would not capitalize on that and call herself a musician.

Eminem's fans can claim whatever talent they think is necessary, but it doesn't make it so. Eminem writes good lyrics? I dispute that because I don't see a certain sense of continuity. Words are measured on their rhyming value and not what they mean. Seriously, explain the Margot Kidder line for me. Impress me. im getting tired to hear that im a kid or stupid or everything and that i have to defend myself just because i listen to eminem, and that that would mean i justify violence or somethingWow, is that really your perception of circumstances? Then perhaps I am correct in my assertions.

What I find so childish and stupid is the active defense of Eminem's conduct at the VMA. Furthermore, I must admit that I find the transposition of lyrical and musical qualities a discouraging indicator of the intellectual qualities of the debate. Yes, I might call on people to defend their listening to this or that, but I don't find that to be problematic when people call on me to defend my musical tastes. Savatage's Streets album, for instance. I have a thing for narrative albums when coherently devised, and Streets is one of those. However, I don't hold it up to be anything more than it was: an album that didn't get noticed when it should have. I didn't feel compelled to threaten violence against their misguided lyrical critics. And I don't recall them ever threatening violence against their critics.

Listening to Eminem does not equal an endorsement of violence. Defending his actions at the VMA does..really the funny thing is actually that i got a gay friend and that person likes eminems music and doesnt feel offended and im a woman and i dont feel offended by his music eitherI'm aware of the phenomenon. But the consistency with which the women I know who like Eminem like him because they think he's cute and it doesn't matter what he says (so much for the artistic vision) and with which the gay men I know who appreciate Eminem want to f@ck him, I'm not sure the phenomenon really speaks to Marshall's benefit..really the funny thing is actually that i got a gay friend and that person likes eminems music and doesnt feel offended and im a woman and i dont feel offended by his music eitherWow, it really does translate that way to his fans .... :p ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by static76
1)Rap is by definition music..
1. The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.
2. Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.


2) I disagree, the Beatles were popular, yet not many would classify them in the pop catergory. The same could be said for most rock, rap, and country artists. Mozart is extremely popular, but I would never classify him in the Pop music category either...


wrong wrong wrong

pure rap is simply rap, there is no instrumentation or arrangement of sound in melody or harmony.


mozart is sooooooooooooooooooooo extremely popular. when was the last time you found any of his works on the billboard 200? (although, many classical pieces should be)


hahah, you are really dumb. i am done with you.

:confused:

Originally posted by ChristCrusher
wrong wrong wrong

pure rap is simply rap, there is no instrumentation or arrangement of sound in melody or harmony.


mozart is sooooooooooooooooooooo extremely popular. when was the last time you found any of his works on the billboard 200? (although, many classical pieces should be)


hahah, you are really dumb. i am done with you.

:confused:

Yes it is, brainiac...

1) Rap uses arrangements of sound in melody, and rythym.

2) Rap is also the use of vocal sounds possessing a degree of melody, and rythym.

As for Mozart,..perhaps you don't know that music didn't begin with the Billboard 200.:rolleyes: To say Mozart's music hasn't been popular is idiotic...But then again ALL your trolling posts are idiotic, so I'm sure no one's surprised.

Originally posted by static76
Yes it is, brainiac...

1) Rap uses arrangements of sound in melody, and rythym.

2) Rap is also the use of vocal sounds possessing a degree of melody, and rythym.

As for Mozart,..perhaps you don't know that music didn't begin with the Billboard 200.:rolleyes: To say Mozart's music hasn't been popular is idiotic...But then again ALL your trolling posts are idiotic, so I'm sure no one's surprised.


1,2- rap, by definition, is a monotonal talking. that is not melodic.
rhythm alone does not make music. try again. added instrumentation (often synthetic to boot) inherently makes it not true rap.


of course mozart wasn't on billboard, however, the point you fail to grasp is that pop culture is not time independent. pop culture norms are inherently derived to be spontaneous.





everyone here is laughing at your idiocy.





now go back to swallowing negroid cum, you fellating sycophant.

You know, I'm a fan of Mozart.

But popularity doesn't mean a whole lot when we stop to think that Mozart is most popular among people who are not classical musicians. As a matter of fact, I can draw a firm line and say that while other writers that I know appreciate Mozart, I can't think of a single musician I know whose appreciation of Mozart isn't tempered by the claim that he was a knock-off artist, or that Haydn did it better. Most, in fact, refer to Mozart as childish. Hell, there are Mozart pieces that I like, even the ones that were included in old Mario Brothers' games. I think of an old Doonesbury in which Mark Slackmeyer, shock jock, was trashing Mozart on the air. Absolutely beautiful. And the callers were hilarious; they sounded about as pince-nez as one could get without corking the other end.

As long as we're splitting hairs, though, ChristCrusher is correct in the assessment of pure and true rap, which is rhythmic and not melodic.

However, in the spirit of the current discussion, I will scratch my head at the sycophantic negroid fellatio. Can't say I've ever tried that.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

if Mozart had to play among an audience of today, being so selective as to What he'd play to Whom, i bet all he'd do is 1) hide under the harpsichord or 2) play the same note with his pinkie, over and over, while eatingi petit fours and looking at the audience with his tongue out.

Mozart was childish? Try to play scrabble while listening to his Requiem. I admit (as a music educator and performer) that he has written rather naive works, but this was his way of facing composing for idiots :)

And he's not even my fave composer. I go for Italian Baroque all the way!

Salamander:

Welcome to here.

Italian Baroque? Uber-nifty, fave composers?

Thanks.

Composers. Vivaldi, Albinioni, Boccerini, to name a few at 7.48am ;)

Salamander:

Vivaldi always seemed a bit dry to me (although "Winter" from four seasons definitely kicks ass) . But Albinoni is wonderful. Not very familiar with Boccerini.

Vivaldi dry? DRY? whoa! thats the first time i hear such a comment!

Relax though, you have 450 concerts to browse till you change your mind ;) :D

Originally posted by tiassa
Which character was he playing at the VMA? Just remind me.

No one said he was playing a character. Why would he be playing a character?

Both Justme and you. Like I said, write Eminem's company. Maybe after they find out about the horrible conspiracy at Barnes & Noble to hurt Eminem, he can go down there and threaten them.

??? Put down the booze my friend...Is this another bad attempt by you to trash talk...:D

The reason his album has a few producers on the credits, is because he collaberated with them on a few songs, nothing more.

Hey, don't hold my right to not listen to Eminem against me. What, are you trying to force me to buy his albums?

I truly could care less whether you buy his albums or not, But to debate the quality of songs you never even listened to, makes no sense.

It would be like me arguing that the movie "Goodfellas" had no plot, without ever seeing it.

Never claimed to be. I'm just telling it like I see it. You know, being honest about what I see. Of course, this is not something that people should do? Should we, instead, make a huge artistic statement out of it?

WTF? Who said you shouldn't be honest about what you see? And what does this have to do with your labeling of those who like some of his songs.

By listening to the people I know who listen to him talk about him.

Duh.

If you ever want to know why people do something, just pay attention to the people who are doing it and the reasons they give for their actions and choices.

Is it that tough?

If you've listened to the reasons that many have gave, why do you continue then, to say that people don't buy his music because they think it's good, but because they think its cool. (which is what the quoted statement was reffering to)

Oh, macho bravado. That's right.

Finally you get it...:D

I highly doubt that.

Stop and think about this. I watched this happen on the street: a woman took a swing at her boyfriend on a crowded city street before God, a hundred witnesses, and a couple of cops, who did nothing. The guy restrained himself, and the woman kept coming. It was only after the guy decided that he might have to defend himself that the police interfered.

So think about this: If I look at my girlfriend and shut her up by saying, "Keep booing, little girl, I'll hit a woman," I go to jail.


LMAO!!! No one is going to get arrested for saying that, get real my friend. And why would he say "keep booing" to the girl?? LOL

If your story was right, Moby should have the police arrest Eminem immediately...right??

Perhaps that's something that doesn't happen in the world of Eminem's fans. But violence is generally looked down upon by intelligent people, and while I don't think Eminem needs to be jailed for his words, I think you'll end up eating yours when the full implications of what you're advocating become clear to you.

And don't worry, there's nothing I can do to make that clear to you. Rather, on some future occasion when someone threatens you, you'll have to figure out what to say when they look at the intervening party and say, "It wasn't a threat."


The world of Eminem fans?? Are fans of Eminem seperate from everyone else?

Also there was no violence, he didn't touch Moby at all. I have already said that I didn't condone what he did. Why can't you get that through your skull...

The only reason I even entered this thread was because people didn't know what started the problem between the two, and thought Eminem just started it that night.

Keep minimizing the situation. I'm sure that process is of some use to your ego. But the simple fact remains that Eminem crossed a line with his words, and the question that remains unanswered in this topic is one I saw a few days ago about whether his behavior was "in character" or not. However, when we stop and think about how simple it apparently is supposed to be to understand his lyrics and his act, and when we stop and think that Eminem doesn't seem to know when the act stops and reality begins, I think minimization such as the sort you're after is only a justification of the self. It's hard to be a fan of someone so distasteful, and especially when they disagree with your moral position. That's why I never understood why people would make excuses for him. Are such methods of handling conflict acceptable to you? Between threats and macho bravado, I don't see much room for solutions.

My ego?? What does putting the situation in its full context have to do with hurting my ego???

I also think you totally misunderstand what we are reffering to when we talked about the characters in his songs. The viewpoint in some of his songs, is that of a character. For instance, in the song "Stan", in some verses he's rapping and telling the story from Stan's view, and others from his own viewpoint when he's writing Stan a reply letter. So NO, his behavior on the VMA wasn't in some character, he was just being lame. I hope I cleared that up for you.

That said, to make a big deal out of his trash talking, like you have, is pointless. He didn't touch Moby, and he committed no crime.

You call it a threat, I call it trash talking. We'll just have to disagree on this one...

Or, like one Eminem fan (female) puts it: "Yeah, it's pretty stupid. But he's so cute!"

I suppose this yet another attempt to label those who enjoy his music. A large percentage of the Beatles, Stones, and Nirvana's fan base thought the same way. I still respect their music though..

You know, many people who make artistic statements about controversial issues do a little more than rehash them for rhythmical glory. I think if Marshall were to make an artistic statement that bore some personal integrity, I would probably be somewhat pleased no matter how ridiculous it is. Yet we're supposed to believe it's just an artistic statement when the artist himself cannot separate the statement from reality? Seems to me that we're awarding Marshall too much credit for intellect. I mean, it seems that all his fans understand his artistic statement but he doesn't.

No, most of the people who don't understand his "artistic statement", are his critics. And most of them, like yourself, haven't even heard his songs.

How can you say his songs have no personal integrity, when he raps mostly about his life and opinions?

You mean like the times I asked for people's recommendations and didn't get any, and then went out and downloaded the song "Without Me" and then offered my considerations thereof?

You mean like never doing the things that I've already done?


I already recommended songs to you, reread the thread.

I think you're quite a ways off on this one.

• I didn't complain about the album before it came out
• I didn't complain about Eminem until he decided to threaten someone
• It is not my fault if what Eminem's fans insist of reality is not apparent

You missed the point, once again. If you haven't listened to the songs, you have no place commenting on their content. It's like saying a movie you've never seen, is bad.

But I do understand that homosexuality and slang words referring to it are used toward negative characterizations.

It's kind of like saying, "No, I don't have a problem with homosexuality," and then turning around and saying that someone you don't like is a homo faggot pussy. Tell me, what does homo or faggot have to do with his problems with Everlast?

Many guys have been using phrases like "faggot" "bitch" "pussy" as insults to say a guy is wimpy. I don't like it and feel it's unneccessary, but it's doesn't make them homophobic, or anti-women. If he used it and directed it at a gay person, or if his context differed, I would agree with you. Fortunately we have common sense, and we can tell the difference between the two.

Well, I'm not one to criticize someone for speaking ill of one's parents. Sometimes it's deserved. But then you go and tell me that he's angry about his mother's mental illness?

I mean, as I read through, I can see that he is legitimately angry. But the method of expression is pretty weak. It seems to me that his repeated mantra through such songs is, "I'm an asshole, but I'm misunderstood so you're gonna enjoy me being an asshole 'cuz I don't have to change."

It's kind of like mystical and religious ideas of repentance. It just doesn't ring genuine. A little more integrity of perspective throughout the lyrics and he would have had it.

How would you know his "method of expression is weak", without listening????

Why not? Most of the people who made Nevermind a best-seller were complete idiots and liked Nirvana because it was cool to like Nirvana.

In the meantime, wouldn't it be easier to be insulting if you were defending a more coherent, more educated, more defensible philosophic exposition?

And, yes, Nirvana took heat for their lyrics. But the one thing they never did was threaten their critics with bodily violence.

Eminem's problem with Moby, wasn't about Moby's view of his music. It was about the lies that Moby was saying to the press.

And why do you say "critics", when he was only reffering to one guy???

Lastly, Saying that "I'll hit a man with glasses", while accepting an award, is no threat of bodily violence as you put it. It may be a lame overused line, but no threat.

Two points:

• Many musicians better than Eminem pay their dues for longer periods and don't have a Dr Dre to take them under his wing
• His success is due to the fact that given the limited options put before them, people preferred to listen to it

How long do you think he would have languished without Dre? Would Dre really have picked him up if he didn't see exploitable commercial value in it?

We're not speaking about other musicians, I gave you a little bio about Eminem. Dre picked him up because he saw his talent, that's the reason. If Eminem waited 15 years you wouldn't care, so what's the point?

Who's blaming Eminem for that?

Why do you consistently try to change the terms of what's being debated? When has anyone ever proposed blaming the problems of the music industry on Eminem? Noting that he's part of that problem? Sure. But it's the way of the business. Getting the extra boosts can be part of the game, but what you do with the boosts is very important.

You are truly funny. Reread the quote I was responding to, maybe that will clear things up for you.

I will respect those who like Eminem when those who like Eminem can coherently state why to a degree that transcends the reasoning of a pre-teen. I will respect Eminem itself when it has a more coherent message.

Considering that you haven't even heard his songs, your opinion of his message, means nothing.

Being present does not equal production, or else Spears and Backstreet would produce their albums, too.

You know nothing of this subject obviously. I seriously doubt you know what Eminem was doing in the studio.

Not my problem if the considerations you undertake confuse you.

Furthermore, what am I supposed to think of such low-brow "logic"? "Nobody is trying to justify Eminem's behavior, we're just putting it into context." What context is that? A context that establishes the propriety of Eminem's behavior? Why don't you explain what context you're trying to achieve. Seriously, if you don't want to be viewed like a Bush, don't make excuses like one.

I said I thought what he did was lame, and I didn't condone it. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that?

I also put in context why Eminem was feuding with Moby, because many didn't know. They thought that Eminem just started it that night.

Is that clear enough for you?????

Why? If you like the music on the radio? Or is it that Eminem is the only thing on the radio you like?

It's kind of like Eminem transferring the idea from whether it's done at all to "I'm not the first". I mean, who actually has blamed Eminem for the state of modern pop music? He may be symptomatic, but he's not the cause.

So is it that Eminem is something that's on the radio that you happen to like? I have a long list of favorite artists who reaped massive benefit from payola and other scandals. But they were musicians, interested in music, not would-be icons worried about image.

What the fuck??? I have said MANY times, that I only listen to talk shows on the radio, and that I play CDs for music. Why do you keep saying that I like the music on the radio?????

Does your arrogance know no boundaries????:eek:

I would respond to the rest of your post, but it feels as if we're running around in circles. You pretty much say the same thing over and over again, so let me say this.

The reason I got into this thread was because some didn't know why Eminem was feuding with Moby.

As I have stated, Eminem isn't even my favorite rapper, much less favorite musician. However, I take offense to comments calling those who enjoy his music, unintelligent fans who only like his songs because the radio tells us so.

It's silly to have a debate when you don't even listen to his songs, and instead quote little excerpts out of context.

You view his actions on the VMAs as threats of violence, I view it as using a lame over used line as trash talking. We'll just have to disagree.

Frankly, I'm tired of this debate. I doubt either of us will change our opinion, so it seems rather pointless.

Originally posted by ChristCrusher
1,2- rap, by definition, is a monotonal talking. that is not melodic.
rhythm alone does not make music. try again. added instrumentation (often synthetic to boot) inherently makes it not true rap.

of course mozart wasn't on billboard, however, the point you fail to grasp is that pop culture is not time independent. pop culture norms are inherently derived to be spontaneous.

everyone here is laughing at your idiocy.

now go back to swallowing negroid cum, you fellating sycophant.

Hey dumbfuck(also known as ChristCrusher), since you like definitions so much, here's dictionary.com's take on rap music...

rap music

n : a form of vocal music in which rhyming lyrics are chanted to a musical accompaniment [syn: rap]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University


Is that clear enough for you????

As for Mozart, here's what i originally said.."I disagree, the Beatles were popular, yet not many would classify them in the pop catergory. The same could be said for most rock, rap, and country artists. Mozart is extremely popular, but I would never classify him in the Pop music category either..."

Originally posted by static76
Hey dumbfuck(also known as ChristCrusher), since you like definitions so much, here's dictionary.com's take on rap music...

rap music

n : a form of vocal music in which rhyming lyrics are chanted to a musical accompaniment [syn: rap]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University


Is that clear enough for you????

As for Mozart, here's what i originally said.."I disagree, the Beatles were popular, yet not many would classify them in the pop catergory. The same could be said for most rock, rap, and country artists. Mozart is extremely popular, but I would never classify him in the Pop music category either..."


quoting a non-standard literary source for credibility, the last sign of a truly weak-minded wanker who has been thoroughly refuted by others.







:cool: :cool:




"yUo R teH geigh"

Originally posted by tiassa
As long as we're splitting hairs, though, ChristCrusher is correct in the assessment of pure and true rap, which is rhythmic and not melodic.

However, in the spirit of the current discussion, I will scratch my head at the sycophantic negroid fellatio. Can't say I've ever tried that.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Actually it does have melody, I think I'll use another definition since "Christ Chrusher" loves them..

mel·o·dy Pronunciation Key (ml-d)
n. pl. mel·o·dies
1. A pleasing succession or arrangement of sounds.
2. Musical quality: the melody of verse.
3. Music.
a. A rhythmically organized sequence of single tones so related to one another as to make up a particular phrase or idea.
b. Structure with respect to the arrangement of single notes in succession.
c. The leading part or the air in a composition with accompaniment.
4. A poem suitable for setting to music or singing.

I would only accept rap as music when I'd see a definition in the Oxford Dictionary of Music, or a relevant edition that is solely responsible as to what is and can be defined as music and what not.

Originally posted by ChristCrusher
quoting a non-standard literary source for credibility, the last sign of a truly weak-minded wanker who has been thoroughly refuted by others.


*Yawn*

I guess the fact that the definition uses Princton University as a source means nothing...

Personally, I never heard anyone claim rap isn't music before today, although some have called it bad music:D. You quoted a definition, so I gave you one that you can look up on the net...

Originally posted by Salamander
I would only accept rap as music when I'd see a definition in the Oxford Dictionary of Music, or a relevant edition that is solely responsible as to what is and can be defined as music and what not.

If you feel that only the Oxford Dictionary can claim what music is, then that's your deal.

The music industry and it's artists accept Rap as a form of music, that's all the confirmation I need.

Eminem threatened someone? Never before in my life have I heard such a dreadful affair!

The only problem with modern definitions is that they reflect modern values. Now, normally this isn't a problem.

However, a friend of mine recently pointed out that a lot of "folk" artists are using electronica sounds in their creations. In a few years, electronica will be a natural part of folk and nobody will have to think about the unpleasant days of when there were no pulsing beats or electronic sounds in folk music.

In the meantime, I do remember in fifth grade my teacher saying of the beginnings of pop-culture rap that rap was nothing more than he learned to speak as a child, and that it was nice to finally hear rap set to music.

In this case, you have offered definitions for what rap has become, a term that offers no distinctions, considers itself a sales genre, and declines defining marks.

A rhythmic fill might be considered melodic in a minimalist piece. I, for instance, will never assert that Rhys Chatham's "Guitar Trio" is melodic. Quite the opposite: it is designed to be a-melodic, or, quite simply, a rhythmic exploration of tone. But, yes, by introducing a new definition, a song intended to have no melody suddenly has a melody.

Presto-chango. It's magic!

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
The only problem with modern definitions is that they reflect modern values. Now, normally this isn't a problem.

However, a friend of mine recently pointed out that a lot of "folk" artists are using electronica sounds in their creations. In a few years, electronica will be a natural part of folk and nobody will have to think about the unpleasant days of when there were no pulsing beats or electronic sounds in folk music.

In the meantime, I do remember in fifth grade my teacher saying of the beginnings of pop-culture rap that rap was nothing more than he learned to speak as a child, and that it was nice to finally hear rap set to music.

In this case, you have offered definitions for what rap has become, a term that offers no distinctions, considers itself a sales genre, and declines defining marks.

A rhythmic fill might be considered melodic in a minimalist piece. I, for instance, will never assert that Rhys Chatham's "Guitar Trio" is melodic. Quite the opposite: it is designed to be a-melodic, or, quite simply, a rhythmic exploration of tone. But, yes, by introducing a new definition, a song intended to have no melody suddenly has a melody.

Presto-chango. It's magic!

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

You have a right to your opinion tiassa, and we could argue this endlessly. Throughout this thread I have stated what rap is, I only used definitions to counter when others said that "by definition" it wasn't music.

We'll just have to disagree on this subject.

Please do me a favor, though, and spend some time in the future reflecting on the essential something and what the commercial world tells you something is. Yes, I know that rap has a certain amount of melody. Strange, though, how its advocates always talked about rhythm, even after a lack of melody was pointed out. I remember that really weird whining synth-noise that became popular in rap for a few years after Kriss Kross had it in the backtrack of one of their songs. People made jokes about it then: a melodic element had finally been added to rap. Lots of people went on to use that sound; Dre, Ice (Cube, as I recall), and a bunch of people I never paid attention to. To this day, one of my favorite rap performances is a song whose title escapes me because the guy sat down with a guitar and recorded a melody beneath the vocal track. Thankfully, there is some musical quality in the rap industry to be noted, but since we are talking in such basic terms of pop-culture, it should be pointed out that while a rap occurs in the song "Thriller" (by none other than the eminent MC-VP), the song is not a "rap song".

The end point being is that technically, you're right about your definitions. But that's only because "rap" has been changed in people's minds from the spoken words to the music that goes with it. It's a commercial definition.

And in this world when commerce tries to tell art patrons what is good and what is bad, and does so with conflicted interests (profit margins, for instance), I do take a strong stand when people ask for artistic legitimacy in such an environment. It disturbs me to see otherwise-intelligent people accepting compromised terms from someone who doesn't care about you but rather about your money.

Rap in general has never experienced its Dark Side of the Moon or The Wall or White Album or Smile (note, the rest of pop music hasn't experienced its Smile yet). People might tell me that this or that is good, but the best I can say of most rap is that it is very good for its genre. It hasn't established its full musicality yet. Of course, to the other, when rap does achieve its full musicality, I expect some fans to call it "fake rap" or "not real" or something like that

In the meantime, people do get close. Take a look at rock and roll, for instance. Going from "Rocket 88" (Ike Turner) to "Money" (Pink Floyd) is an interesting, arduous tale. Accepting that when history recycles itself it does so faster, I'm expecting that supreme statement of rap to come in the next couple of years. Who knows, Eminem might be the one who makes it. I admit that it would be a pleasant surprise.

Here, I'll even give you the basic breakdown of me and rap:

• First rap heard: Vincent Price in "Thriller"
• Oldest rap familiar: Sugarhill Gang, "Rapper's Delight"
•_First contact with rap in the mainstream: Run DMC
• First acceptance of rap as art: Public Enemy (it had to be pointed out to me by a heavy metal band I listened to)
• Favorite rap album owned: Sir Mix-A-Lot, Mack Daddy
• Best rap album owned: Arrested Development, 3 Years, 5 Months and 2 Days in the Life Of .... or Beastie Boys Check Your Head
•_Worst rap ever heard: LL Cool J, "I Need Love" or Black 47 "Time to Go"
• Favorite rap ever heard: Roger Waters, "Perfect Sense Part II" (MC Marv Albert)
• Best rap ever heard: Beastie Boys, circa Check Your Head
• Latest rap acquired: Gorillaz, "Rock da House"
• Latest rap of interest: Nappy Roots, "Po' Folks" (I think is the title)
• Rhyme currently playing: Kid Sensation, "Two Minutes"

A couple of notes for you.

I've had twenty years to consider rap as a commercial art form and it has never sold me on its credibility. There are occasionally groups which show much promise, but I learned back in the 1990s that it really is flash-in-the-pan. A couple of the selections on the above list are, admittedly, odd. "Testarossa" ... well, I can't tell you what, technically, is the "best" rap I've ever heard. Never bothered to buy a Public Enemy album since I could hear it almost anywhere I went. They had some cool ones, but I can't recall any of the titles. I mean, as much as I like the Beastie Boys, I do worry about the state of the rap genre when three skinny guys from New York with whiny voices are the paramount of musical accomplishment in the genre. They hit, for me, almost twenty years ago, and nobody has met the challenge since.

I'm all to accept a difference of opinion, but I will make myself clear on one point: If people want me to accept the artistic value of something, they should note it in language that does not reflect the genre itself, but the art of the the object. In this case, I have been insulting to Eminem's fans merely because, well, they chose to speak that poorly. I mean, the topic was it's own with only one pseudo-defense of Eminem (he says what other people are afraid to, which was dealt with in due course) until someone came along and defended Eminem's conduct,

• I find it strange, that people are attacking Eminem for defending himself against what was said about him.

Honestly, that I wasn't a fan of Eminem's fans to begin with wasn't too big a problem to me. Even the typical "he says what other people are afraid to" line is like water off a duck's back. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that about various foulmouthed artists. But in Eminem's defense, I see a lack of intellectualism that speaks poorly of the people defending him. No, I don't think you're as stupid as your comments make you out to be, but I would very much hope that someday you will shake off this commercial malaise which compels you to justify that kind of behavior.

It still reminds me of an episode of The Simpsons: "We are watching Fox ...."

Honestly, the problem is that a lot of people cease their artistic development with the pop culture. So that at thirty, their expressions of what they appreciate in music sound like they're still thirteen. It really bugs me to see people insisting on staying in that dead zone. It means that talented musicians and actors who work hard will have to take a back seat to the aesthetic appeal of a culture that would prefer to turn every art form into a sexy-contest and leave the people who legitimize the industries with their labors of love to starve.

Remember, You are watching Fox.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Both Justme and you. Like I said, write Eminem's company. Maybe after they find out about the horrible conspiracy at Barnes & Noble to hurt Eminem, he can go down there and threaten them.
sorry i made a mistake, i took another look in the album booklet, and dr. dre is indeed executive producer like i said, but executive producers for f.b.t. productions are jeff bass and mark bass, i guess this was what the link you gave was referring too, still strange they didnt mention dr dre as executive producer..
He's writing lyrics and other people are making music for him. I thought we'd been through this.
no YOU think you are so right, while you know nothing, you DONT read other people's posts, i will tell you this AGAIN, and back it up with some links if you don't believe me..eminem has produced most songs on the eminem show and did mixing, and he's executive producer and producer on devils night..

http://cdnow.com/switch/from=cr-11408190-1/target=buyweb_purchase/itemid=1554626

http://cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=289391764/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/ArtistID=D12/ITEMID=1398884
It's kind of like saying, "No, I don't have a problem with homosexuality," and then turning around and saying that someone you don't like is a homo faggot pussy. Tell me, what does homo or faggot have to do with his problems with Everlast?
what does the word pussy or cunt itself has to do with everlast:p, its like static76 said, it are all just diss words...and do i have to remind you of how you said the song without me is gay?? oh wait wait just for the hell of it i'll quote it for you:
Many people have a word that adequately describes Eminem's "Without Me". It's not a word I use in this context, though, since it carries repercussions for people who have nothing to do with the situation. But today I will use that word because it is the only one that comes to mind. Dude: that song is fucking gay I mean, really. I actually resent that use of the word gay. But it sounds ferociously homosexual, diva-arrogant ...
oh my tiassa?? *points at tiassa* HOMOPHOBIC!!!

well i really dont believe you are homophobic, so you dont have to defend yourself, you just used the word 'gay', which means happy, and it means a homosexual, but it also means something you don't like, something that is lame, it's often used by people, and in that context it had grown to be a meaning out of its own, absolutly not referring to being a homosexual anymore..its the same with the words faggot, homo and bitch...
His success is due to the fact that given the limited options put before them, people preferred to listen to it

AGAIN, you DIDNT read static76 and mines post before...people did listen to eminem BEFORE he blew up...before he ever got played on the radio, before dr. dre even knew about him...he had fans and he had people supporting him as an underground rapper in detroit..so why did they choose to like eminem, if they could have listened to the pop on the radio and choose one of those limited options?? Like the Margot Kidder line. Why is it that Eminem's fans are of no help on this one? Lyrical respect? Why? Because he can make words rhyme? Woo-hoo.
AGAIN you didnt read my post before...i will quote it for you again, and maybe you can do your absolute best to read it...AND remember it this time..here we go, this is about the song you had took the margot kidder line from:
the song low down dirty that you just posted is very old, its a song from before he was a famous rapper, he grew lyrically, at least thats my opinion
even eminem himself says that at first (like with his first album infinite) he wasnt so good, he putted words together that rhyme..(just like you said), but he grown and improved..to keep hammering on one sentence from a very old eminem song like you do doesnt proove your point and only shows you have lack on prooving your point with more examples and with newer material...
If Moby is so wrong, why is it left to Marshall's fans to make that statement? If Marshall knows Moby's wrong, why not show it instead of just shoot off at the mouth?
AGAIN (im getting so tired of this) you didnt read my post very well before...i dont even feel like looking at up and quoting it again, you can reread the thread and find it yourself...i said that eminem has reacted MANY times to his critics..he ALWAYS defended himself against the critics and reacted on it...actually it finally quieted down (especially after the performance with elton john), till moby started to talk...i guess eminem got to tired to repeat everything he said before and didnt feel he had to go over it again and again and again..Being present does not equal production, or else Spears and Backstreet would produce their albums, too. look up in this post and read the links...
I keep asking for Eminem's most impressive songs and you got 2 songs from static76, where i said i totally agreed with, but yet AGAIN you didnt read it...Good is not a matter of taste; it is quantifiable according to convention. That something is popular does not equal a convention of quality well i guess it is taste, i think it is GOOD and has QUALITY, you think differently, and thats no problem, but then again, i actually listened to his albums and you didnt and still you think you owe the absolute truth and know everything about his songs and lyrics:rolleyes:, if you would have actually listened seriously to it, i might listen to you.. Eminem's fans can claim whatever talent they think is necessary, but it doesn't make it so. Eminem writes good lyrics? I dispute that because I don't see a certain sense of continuity. Words are measured on their rhyming value and not what they mean. Seriously, explain the Margot Kidder line for me. Impress me. look to what i previously said in this post about the margot kidder line...and i measure his words on their rhyming value AND what they mean..he got something to say in his songs..sometimes he uses the words to make his fans laugh, sometimes he uses them very seriously to tell about his life, or just to state his opinion ( i kinda said this in another post already), but it arent just empty words that happen to rhyme..I'm aware of the phenomenon. But the consistency with which the women I know who like Eminem like him because they think he's cute and it doesn't matter what he says (so much for the artistic vision) and with which the gay men I know who appreciate Eminem want to f@ck him, I'm not sure the phenomenon really speaks to Marshall's benefit. AGAIN...i dont listen to eminem because he's cute..i told you before that i didnt even like his music at the beginning, because i only knew a few singles of him which i happened not to like..if i thought he was cute i would have bought it from the first time i saw him on tv wouldnt i, according to your theory , so your stereotyping of eminem female fans doesnt fit to all female fans, maybe some are like that, but every artist has a couple of fans like that, they surely arent ALL like that..i wouldnt ever buy albums of people i think look cute..because the music itself has nothing to do with looks and LISTENING to an album (which you do with your EARS, not with your EYES) from someone you think is cute, but dont like his music, would get pretty boring.. i see lot of cute guys who happen to sing, but that doesnt make me buy their albums...the gay friend i have by the way is a GIRL, so no she doesnt want to fuck eminem:p, but still she should be offended by his lyrics right, because they are so homophobic like moby claimed them to be?? but she doesnt feel offended...

cant find a quote so fast and i need to hurry up because its bed time for me :D but about what you said about defending eminems 'threat' of violence..i said already that i thought it wasnt smart of him, it was stupid, and he could better not have said it, but i dont saw it as a threat because he looked calm, and just went on with his speech after he said that, without showing ANYTHING that would suggest he was actually going to do what he just said (hitting a man with glasses), this you can hardly see as a threat, because as wordnet 1.7 says as a definition of threat: 'declaration of an intention or a determination to inflict harm on another'..i guess this a general excepted definition..and looking at the vma's its obvious eminem had no INTENTION to really act on what he said..it was more like static76 said trash talking then really something he said and was planning to do..there is a BIG difference between this...and if it was really a threat of violence, than according to your theory (because you said eminem should have taken moby to court about the things moby said about eminem to proove him wrong), moby should have filed a complain with the police and let the judge see if it actually was a threat..and knowing that the judge would see that eminem didnt act on his threat, because the little girl kept booing…and still eminem didnt go in the audience to hit the man with glasses..and that he just went on with his speech obviously not serious about the ‘threat’ he made, because he didnt show any intention, i doubt if the judge will think its a threat...dont you think i will make a great lawyer when i finished my law study :D ?? oh no wait i am dumb and a kid and not intelligent..i forgot for a second:(…

oh and again, im not justifying the thing eminem said, i think it was stupid of him, and better left unsaid...i just dont see it as a real serious threat of violence like you do..

sorry i made a mistake, i took another look in the album booklet, and dr. dre is indeed executive producer like i said, but executive producers for f.b.t. productions are jeff bass and mark bass, i guess this was what the link you gave was referring too, still strange they didnt mention dr dre as executive producer..It's cool. Part of what I'm after is that people take a hard look at the artistic things they like. I do it all the time. It helps keep the individual perspective on the art or artist in check.eminem has produced most songs on the eminem show and did mixing, and he's executive producer and producer on devils night..Eminem's role in the mixing was to assist a guy named Steven King, it would seem. That stage usually involves the artist telling the mixing engineer what he wants and then sitting there while the guy does it.

That was a good album review, though. In relation to "Hallie's Song", though, I'm suddenly put in mind of a song Tommy Lee wrote and performed for Motley Crue, dedicated to his child. You could almost write the same comments about that song.what does the word pussy or cunt itself has to do with everlastSpecifically, it employs female-associated words as insults. Just like employing gay-associated words as insults. In other words, if you want to insult a man, call him a woman or a homosexual. Like your next portion:you just used the word 'gay', which means happy, and it means a homosexual, but it also means something you don't like, something that is lame, it's often used by people, and in that context it had grown to be a meaning out of its own, absolutly not referring to being a homosexual anymore..its the same with the words faggot, homo and bitch...Think of it this way.

• George W. Bush, Jr. is such a woman.

Now, I am not claiming that Mr Bush is actually a biological female. Rather, I'm using the word "woman" to indicate someone who is weak-willed, incompetent, stupid, and who whines pathetically.

In that case, "woman" is an insulting condition.

Is it easy enough to see? What else do I need to explain to you? (Seriously, and without sarcasm I ask that.)AGAIN, you DIDNT read static76 and mines post before...people did listen to eminem BEFORE he blew up...before he ever got played on the radio, before dr. dre even knew about him...he had fans and he had people supporting him as an underground rapper in detroit..Do you ever do the club or underground scenes? Ever get out and watch and listen to the plethora of bands on the underground and club circuits? For instance, Floater, who plays to rooms of 300 to 5000. They are well-respected on the west coast. They turned down a record contract because they weren't going to take their 75-minute masterpiece, cut out all the slow songs, write new material, and present it as a 59-minute heavy-metal album of collected airplay-ready singles. This is a question most face when they are offered a record contract. However, if Floater had a Chris Cornell or a Lemmy Killmister to go on television and go to MTV and go to record executives to create a stir for them, they could rule the nation.

In this sense I take my hat off to this hard-working, well-respected band that has found its niche in a local scene. They would rather win your hearts, not have someone tell you to like them.

Without the intervention of Dr. Dre, how far would Eminem have gotten?

Therein lies an interesting question.AGAIN you didnt read my post before...i will quote it for you again, and maybe you can do your absolute best to read it...AND remember it this time..here we go, this is about the song you had took the margot kidder line fromFrom the looks of the review on the page you offered, it seems that there is some question about that genius:

• His "show" this time is all snarls, not cutting satire; Marshall Mathers is on the defensive now ....
• On the tracks, Mathers is at the ol' crossroads. He and Dr. Dre are starting to repeat themselves on the likes of "Soldier," "The Business," and "The Drips," and The Eminem Show lacks the overwhelming, single-minded force that The Marshall Mathers LP had.
• The best moments feel unique, yet somehow isolated from one another.

Of Devil's Night ... the reviews (http://www.artistdirect.com/store/artist/album/0,,1118515,00.html) are not the kindest (http://www.dotmusic.com/artists/Eminem/reviews/June2001/reviews20737.asp).

However, just for kicks:

• The D12 boys drop rhymes like: "Niggas want pussy and I want cash / So Ma, get out there and start selling your dirty ass." Each member is as indistinguishable by his equally calculated obscenities as the next is by his identikit Eminem-derived style.

This tells me very little. It does tell me that the reviewer finds the obscenity calculated for imitation in quest of popularity, and it tells me the reviewer finds that a difficult point. I'm aware of this degree of criticism. It's what people think about when they put things in the context of an art statement.

• In fact, the beats that Dre contributes to 'Devil's Night' sound like they could be prototypes designed back when he was still finding his way out of the G-funk hole and developing that now familiar sample-free sound.

And this, for instance. All it tells me is that Dre is not producing his best work toward this process, giving filler material essentially, in order to carry the project to completion. It's a very small statement.

• The alleged humour of Eminem is nowhere to be seen, buried under irritatingly childish (the number of references to onanism are no coincidence here) nonsense that makes Fred Durst sound like Seamus Heaney

I liked this criticism because it's funny. But this is merely a reviewer's tastes. Who cares if Eminem makes Fred Durst sound like Seamus Heaney, except that Marshall's lyrical genius is supposed to be the high point? In fact, the only reason a criticism like this matters at all is because it strikes after the heart of Eminem's credit: his lyrics.

• As executive producer, Eminem contributes many of the productions, revealing a paucity of ideas that might give an indication of what we can expect from his next album.

Now this, while still subjective, is an important criticism. Is Marshall "holding back"? Is this the whole of what he came up with? (I'm looking for Dotmusic's review of The Eminem Show just to see what they think .... Speaking to US magazine Entertainment Weekly, Dre explained: 'It's a lot more serious this time. There's not as much playful stuff on it.'

'I'm gonna finish up his project soon," he added suggesting that' The Eminem Show' could be released as early as April. (Dotmusic (http://www.dotmusic.com/news/February2002/news23752.asp))Dre, in February, had to "finish up" Marshall's album? Well, there is, indeed a hint at Dre's EP status. But my question here would be Why isn't Marshall "finishing up" the project? At any rate, that article wasn't the review I was looking for. I'm not finding a review of The Eminem Show at Dotmusic ... ah ... here it is (http://www.dotmusic.com/reviews/Albums/May2002/reviews25212.asp). I like this review:

• Marshall Mathers III knows this, of course, which is why the title of album three tips a subtle, knowing nod to the ultimate reality project, The Truman Show. But if he was being truly honest, he would have found some way to twist a pun out of Groundhog Day. Because, like Bill Murray's character who's doomed to live out the same nightmare again and again (and like Jim Carrey's who is stuck in a suburban purgatory), Marshall is trapped within the character of Eminem.

I mean, this is just a high-minded potshot by a critic, but it's pretty funny because some people understand exactly what degree of artistic integrity the critic is swinging after. But therein lies the presumption of The Truman Show connection, which, frankly, I've never heard of before, and I would hope for Eminem's sake that the critic is inventing that comparison. I mean, a pompous critic is one thing, and well-known. However, if the point derives from Marshall's own words, the critic has a huge point.

• Consider the evidence. In 'Cleanin Out My Closet', he unleashes an astonishingly corrosive torrent of hatred towards his parents, saying "I've got some skeletons in my closet/and I don't know if no-one knows it", but the fact is we've heard the story repeated for years now. Other themes: loathes his wife (check), feels persecuted by critics and the authorities (we know), is the voice of white America (heard it), is here to save hip-hop (yep), blahdeblahdenananana (uh-huh).

You'll notice there's almost no qualitative assessment of the song. In that sense, it is safe to say the critic did not find the song groundbreaking. But the rest of the point is unfortunately valid. Nobody's going to deny that people feel this way, but there is nothing really new about the basic messages he's spewing. Admittedly, his manner of expression is considerably lowbrow, so there's that artistic merit. But I think that little capsule makes a good point.

• This isn't laziness on Marshall's part, though. He literally has no choice but to bounce off the same ideas, to attack the usual suspects. "I've created a monster," he says on 'Without Me', "no one wants to see Marshall anymore". On 'Say Goodbye To Hollywood', he's more explicit. "No one puts a grasp on the fact that I sacrificed everything I had," he says referring to privacy, dignity, stability, happiness, sanity even. "If I could go back/I never would have rapped."

Critics aren't all naysaying. If you say something is good or bad as a critic, you're obliged to tell why.

More importantly, though, who says Marshall has to keep rapping? Or does the critic have him wrong, too?

• Make no mistake, no one on this planet would last five seconds being Eminem, let alone Marshall Mathers III. The world he inhabits is a twisted, cruel, horrific place, even if what we see of it is simply entertainment.

This is a great note. In addition to pointing out the trouble of Marshall's life, the critic does make a wonderful point about how people see it as entertainment. However, I would wonder at those who would peddle this apparent hell as entertainment. Fair enough?

• On 'Superman', his attitude towards women is appalling, but this isn't dumb, kneejerk sexism, it's ingrained, full grade misogyny. He f**king hates, mistrusts, undervalues and fears every girl on the planet save his daughter, always haunted by his mother and ex-wife.

Now that is a broad criticism, but it does point toward a psychological process that many can sympathize with. But the anthrax on the tampax makes me wonder if there is any particular reason for any of it.

Perhaps my favorite (so far) critical assessment of Eminem's talents:You've seen it all before. But still you're drawn to the TV set, sucked in by the drama, obsessed by the press cuttings. And, hey, whaddya know? Marshall Mathers has the talent and sheer force of personality to rap his shopping list and diary of business appointments during the last tax month of 2002 and still we're hooked. We've heard it all before, we know the punchline, we've bought into the joke, but still we want the delivery again and again. "I sold my soul to the devil and I'm never getting it back." If those words aren't engraved on Marshall Mathers III's tombstone, the world is more f**ked up than you can possibly imagine.It's as much an indictment of the buying public as it is of Marshall himself.

We could, of course, always pretend that Eminem exists in a vacuum. But what I see in these couple of reviews of the albums you pointed out is generally a couple of fair reviews. One cannot point out the work of Eminem without considering the controversy. Therein we see part of the secret of commercial art.

Thank you at least, for getting me up to pulling up reviews. It was very informative.i guess eminem got to tired to repeat everything he said before and didnt feel he had to go over it again and again and again..O ... kay ....

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm completely that fucked up. But given that it's over one year later, don't we find Marshall's determination to keep this up just a little obsessive? And then when Conan O'Brien showed the comic-dog tape, I was on the floor laughing. People are defending this dude? O-kay. What-ever.

I mean, seriously:Some people question the antics of some bad news boys of hip-hop: Are they in character or out of character?

Well, get this: The bad blood between Eminem and Moby almost turned violent at the recent MTV Video Music Awards when the best-video winner's posse chased Moby during a commercial break, according to The New York Post.

Moby ran and jumped into a chair in the audience at Radio City Music Hall when Eminem's army approached him, a source told the paper.

"They were pointing fingers at him and saying stuff like, -- We're going to get you after the show,' " says a witness. "Moby ran and jumped into the seat in front of us to get away."

When Eminem accepted his award for Best Male Video for "Without Me," a song in which he ridiculed Moby, he took another potshot at the bespectacled techno titan. "I don't know what to say, that little Moby girl threw me out of my game," Eminem said to a chorus of boos.

"Keep booing, little girl. I will hit a man with glasses."

Responding to Eminem's ill-humored and ill-timed behavior, Moby posted a response Friday on his official Web site: "The truth is that I honestly, in all sincerity, thought that the whole Eminem thing was done in some semblance of humor until Eminem called me a p---y that was off-camera and then threatened to beat me up. Ah, well. I think that Eminem is talented and interesting but I'm kind of stunned at the anger that he has for me seeing as I'd never met him up until last night." (St. Augustine Record, 9.02.2002) (http://www.staugustine.com/stories/090202/com_956334.shtml)Tired of repeating himself? Apparently so. :rolleyes:look up in this post and read the links...I did. I even read the review that was included.and you got 2 songs from static76, where i said i totally agreed with, but yet AGAIN you didnt read it...I see Static mentioning "Stan" on 9.4, your mention of "White America" on 9.5, repeated mentions of Eminem's lyrical response to Moby without citation (Static), a repeat of "Stan" from Static on 9.6, Mentions of "Stan", "Cleaning out My Closet" and "I Remember" on 9.9, and a couple of lyrical expositions scattered in there.

Having just reviewed the whole of the topic yet again, I come up with two original mentions: "Stan" and "Cleaning out My Closet". At no time were either song held up to be the songs I should listen to any more than the issues people took with my lyrical examinations proclaimed such a song.

So perhaps you could point out those two songs and the post(s) in which they occur. It would be helpful. It's entirely possible that I've missed it. What, with the claims that a contracted form of two words mean something other than the term it contracts, minimizations of Eminem's conduct, contrary claims that Eminem is not rock and roll and that Eminem can save rock and roll ... ad nauseam.

If I missed it, take some pleasure in that fact and then point the damn posts out please.but then again, i actually listened to his albums and you didnt and still you think you owe the absolute truth and know everything about his songs and lyricsOnce again, the poor excuse that not buying something suspends the right to have an opinion about it?

It seems that you are paying attention. If you weren't, why would you have written so many posts?

The flip-side of that is that no, I don't "owe" (own?) the absolute truth on Eminem. But since his fans want his lyrics to be taken in an artistic context, I would hope they could provide a coherent example of how to do that. So far, it hasn't happened. He's lyrically talented, but that first album wasn't up to snuff. Contracted words mean something different from the word sequence contracted. Has rhyming value and meaning, but nobody can tell me the meaning. Hello?look to what i previously said in this post about the margot kidder line...and i measure his words on their rhyming value AND what they meanWell, what does it mean, then?but it arent just empty words that happen to rhyme.So what does the Margot Kidder line mean?so your stereotyping of eminem female fans doesnt fit to all female fans, maybe some are like that, but every artist has a couple of fans like that, they surely arent ALL like thatWould you rather I lie and misrepresent fans? On the one hand, you're upset because I haven't listened to--experienced--the whole albums the way you want, and on the other hand, I don't see that it matters since you wish to replace my observations and experiences with fluff.the gay friend i have by the way is a GIRL, so no she doesnt want to fuck eminemI'm glad someone brought this up.

• The lesbian is generally safe from desiring a man like Marshall
•_Would Marshall object to having homosexual intercourse? What about a threesome with two girls? (Social double-standard, you know; one of the reviewers pointed out that the new album deals with social double-standards, so why not?)
•_I would be very curious to read your friend's assessment of Eminem. It would be fun, and educational.and looking at the vma's its obvious eminem had no INTENTION to really act on what he saidPlease see the St. Augustine Record article included above, and then consider e-mailing Eminem's organization, since that particular libel would be one they can sue over in order to set the record straight.it was more like static76 said trash talking then really something he said and was planning to doO ... kay ...there is a BIG difference between thisIf you say so. In the meantime, please see the St. Augustine Record and then notify Eminem's organization about the libel committed against him.and if it was really a threat of violence, than according to your theory (because you said eminem should have taken moby to court about the things moby said about eminem to proove him wrong), moby should have filed a complain with the police and let the judge see if it actually was a threatIf Eminem's posse got hold of him, he probably would have. In the meantime, Eminem got booed for his words, and that seems to be enough so far.and knowing that the judge would see that eminem didnt act on his threat, because the little girl kept booing…and still eminem didnt go in the audience to hit the man with glasses..and that he just went on with his speech obviously not serious about the ‘threat’ he made, because he didnt show any intention, i doubt if the judge will think its a threatI await your response, then, to the horrible libel printed in the St. Augustine Record.dont you think i will make a great lawyer when i finished my law studyFrankly, no. Respond to the apparent libel printed in the St. Augustine Record and we'll see.im not justifying the thing eminem said, i think it was stupid of him, and better left unsaid...i just dont see it as a real serious threat of violence like you doWell, I'm not a big-time pop star. If I say those things to people in this town, I get arrested.

Maybe the rules do change when you get famous, eh?

Once again, just for kicks:The bad blood between Eminem and Moby almost turned violent at the recent MTV Video Music Awards when the best-video winner's posse chased Moby during a commercial break, according to The New York Post.

Moby ran and jumped into a chair in the audience at Radio City Music Hall when Eminem's army approached him, a source told the paper.

"They were pointing fingers at him and saying stuff like, -- We're going to get you after the show,' " says a witness. "Moby ran and jumped into the seat in front of us to get away."

When Eminem accepted his award for Best Male Video for "Without Me," a song in which he ridiculed Moby, he took another potshot at the bespectacled techno titan. "I don't know what to say, that little Moby girl threw me out of my game," Eminem said to a chorus of boos.

"Keep booing, little girl. I will hit a man with glasses." (St. Augustine Record, 9.02.2002 (http://www.staugustine.com/stories/090202/com_956334.shtml))

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
Please do me a favor, though, and spend some time in the future reflecting on the essential something and what the commercial world tells you something is. Yes, I know that rap has a certain amount of melody. Strange, though, how its advocates always talked about rhythm, even after a lack of melody was pointed out. I remember that really weird whining synth-noise that became popular in rap for a few years after Kriss Kross had it in the backtrack of one of their songs. People made jokes about it then: a melodic element had finally been added to rap. Lots of people went on to use that sound; Dre, Ice (Cube, as I recall), and a bunch of people I never paid attention to. To this day, one of my favorite rap performances is a song whose title escapes me because the guy sat down with a guitar and recorded a melody beneath the vocal track. Thankfully, there is some musical quality in the rap industry to be noted, but since we are talking in such basic terms of pop-culture, it should be pointed out that while a rap occurs in the song "Thriller" (by none other than the eminent MC-VP), the song is not a "rap song".

tiassa, I glad you admit that rap has a certain amount of melody. Rythym is definately the most significant aspect in rap music, but it varies from song to song.

That "whining synth-noise" wasn't even close to being the first melodic element in rap music. And I'm sorry, but if you think of Kris Kross (who barely had rapping skills, and zero lyrical content), as trend setters you're way off...:eek: Melody was used way before these guys, check out an old LL Cool J album, for instance. This makes me wonder.., what did you find so melodic about the "whining synth-noise"?

Alos, what "rap" are you reffering to in "Thriller"?? You don't mean Vincent Price's talking???

The end point being is that technically, you're right about your definitions. But that's only because "rap" has been changed in people's minds from the spoken words to the music that goes with it. It's a commercial definition.

Rapping isn't "spoken words", it is best describe as rythmic speaking. The "Flow" of a rap song is predicated by the rythmic pace and vocal tone of the rapper. The "flow" that a rapper like Nelly, is vastly different from that of a 2 Pac.

A rapper's flow must also be on pace with the beat, similiar to a singer. A rapper that's "off-beat" is easy to spot.

And in this world when commerce tries to tell art patrons what is good and what is bad, and does so with conflicted interests (profit margins, for instance), I do take a strong stand when people ask for artistic legitimacy in such an environment. It disturbs me to see otherwise-intelligent people accepting compromised terms from someone who doesn't care about you but rather about your money.

I've been a fan of Rap way before is was commercially successful. I have my own opinions as to what I find good, just as you do. I think alot rap today sucks, and recognize commercial creations like a Ja Rule or Nelly.

Once again, we could debate the "artistic legitimacy" of rap music, but I doubt we'll change our opinions on the matter.

Rap in general has never experienced its Dark Side of the Moon or The Wall or White Album or Smile (note, the rest of pop music hasn't experienced its Smile yet). People might tell me that this or that is good, but the best I can say of most rap is that it is very good for its genre. It hasn't established its full musicality yet. Of course, to the other, when rap does achieve its full musicality, I expect some fans to call it "fake rap" or "not real" or something like that

In the meantime, people do get close. Take a look at rock and roll, for instance. Going from "Rocket 88" (Ike Turner) to "Money" (Pink Floyd) is an interesting, arduous tale. Accepting that when history recycles itself it does so faster, I'm expecting that supreme statement of rap to come in the next couple of years. Who knows, Eminem might be the one who makes it. I admit that it would be a pleasant surprise.


Rap just isn't your cup of tea, we all have very different tastes. I never liked "grunge music" either, but once again we all have different tastes.

Here, I'll even give you the basic breakdown of me and rap:

• First rap heard: Vincent Price in "Thriller"

LMAO!!:p :p No wonder you don't respect rap, if you think Vincent Price's talking was a rap...

The structure of his lyrics may have been poetic like that of rap, HOWEVER, he was merely speaking the words, he had no "flow" at all. His pace was independent of the beat, and he spoke with no rythym.:cool:


• Oldest rap familiar: Sugarhill Gang, "Rapper's Delight"
•_First contact with rap in the mainstream: Run DMC
• First acceptance of rap as art: Public Enemy (it had to be pointed out to me by a heavy metal band I listened to)
All good choices.

• Favorite rap album owned: Sir Mix-A-Lot, Mack Daddy

LOL! Can't say that I was ever a big fan of these two. Both Sir Mix A Lot and Kris Kross, had some of the worst lyrical content in the history of rap. Kris Kross's "Jump, Jump" chant was weak IMO, and Mix a Lot's, "Baby got Back" is one of the chessiest rap songs ever.:D

Their style of rap was good for parties though, and I enjoyed the beats to the songs.

• Best rap album owned: Arrested Development, 3 Years, 5 Months and 2 Days in the Life Of .... or Beastie Boys Check Your Head
Good choices.

•_Worst rap ever heard: LL Cool J, "I Need Love" or Black 47 "Time to Go"

LL is one of the best rappers ever, BUT your right about the song "I Need Love". That is one of the sappiest rap songs I've ever heard. I never heard of Black 47, maybe I'll check out this song to how bad it is.;)

• Favorite rap ever heard: Roger Waters, "Perfect Sense Part II" (MC Marv Albert)
• Best rap ever heard: Beastie Boys, circa Check Your Head
• Latest rap acquired: Gorillaz, "Rock da House"
• Latest rap of interest: Nappy Roots, "Po' Folks" (I think is the title)
• Rhyme currently playing: Kid Sensation, "Two Minutes"


Never heard of Roger Waters before, so I can't comment on him.

I think you vastly overrate the Beastie Boys, in my opinion.

A couple of notes for you.

I've had twenty years to consider rap as a commercial art form and it has never sold me on its credibility. There are occasionally groups which show much promise, but I learned back in the 1990s that it really is flash-in-the-pan. A couple of the selections on the above list are, admittedly, odd. "Testarossa" ... well, I can't tell you what, technically, is the "best" rap I've ever heard. Never bothered to buy a Public Enemy album since I could hear it almost anywhere I went. They had some cool ones, but I can't recall any of the titles. I mean, as much as I like the Beastie Boys, I do worry about the state of the rap genre when three skinny guys from New York with whiny voices are the paramount of musical accomplishment in the genre. They hit, for me, almost twenty years ago, and nobody has met the challenge since.


I'm sorry to tell you this, but I doubt anyone other than yourself, thinks that the Beastie Boys are the paramount of musical accomplishment in the rap genre...:p

Many artists are ahead of them like Public Enemy, De La Soul, A Tribe called Quest, Nas, and Outkast just to name a few...

I'm all to accept a difference of opinion, but I will make myself clear on one point: If people want me to accept the artistic value of something, they should note it in language that does not reflect the genre itself, but the art of the the object. In this case, I have been insulting to Eminem's fans merely because, well, they chose to speak that poorly. I mean, the topic was it's own with only one pseudo-defense of Eminem (he says what other people are afraid to, which was dealt with in due course) until someone came along and defended Eminem's conduct,

• I find it strange, that people are attacking Eminem for defending himself against what was said about him.


I was responding to your statement of.."Man, Eminem really is afraid of real musicians."

You said he was afraid of "real" musicians like Moby, and I explainded that his feud is because of what Moby said about him. Nuff said...

Honestly, that I wasn't a fan of Eminem's fans to begin with wasn't too big a problem to me. Even the typical "he says what other people are afraid to" line is like water off a duck's back. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that about various foulmouthed artists. But in Eminem's defense, I see a lack of intellectualism that speaks poorly of the people defending him. No, I don't think you're as stupid as your comments make you out to be, but I would very much hope that someday you will shake off this commercial malaise which compels you to justify that kind of behavior.

"No, I don't think you're as stupid as your comments make you out to be"?????LOL!! My feeling is that any comments that you disagree with, you will find dumb. You arrogantly assume that I like his songs because I'm "compelled" to by "commercial malaise", when you have no clue.

When you say that commercial rap like "Kris Kross" and "Sir Mix a Lot" is your favorite rap albums owned, you show a complete lack of understanding for rap music. You chastise me for liking what you deem "commercial", BUT your favorites are regarded as the epitome of commercial rap, by the rap industry. The irony of your statements are hilarious...

It still reminds me of an episode of The Simpsons: "We are watching Fox ...."

Honestly, the problem is that a lot of people cease their artistic development with the pop culture. So that at thirty, their expressions of what they appreciate in music sound like they're still thirteen. It really bugs me to see people insisting on staying in that dead zone. It means that talented musicians and actors who work hard will have to take a back seat to the aesthetic appeal of a culture that would prefer to turn every art form into a sexy-contest and leave the people who legitimize the industries with their labors of love to starve.

Remember, You are watching Fox.


You obviously haven't read my posts outside of this thread. If you did, you would know that I despise the Media today. :rolleyes:

Once again it's a matter of taste when it comes to music. The world doesn't center around what you find appealing. I live in LA and know far better than you about the struggles of today's actors, as I have many friends in the business. There are alot of talented musicians all over the place, looking for their big break because of record label greed, I never disagreed with this. My problem is that you lump Eminem in this category when I don't.:cool:

i wish i had time to site here and block quote my life away sentence after sentence.


however, since i do not, i will address one point, and then post my concluding remark with a picture.



point- just because a website called 'dictionary.com' defines something in one manner, does not make it inherently correct. there are thousands of opinions and inaccuracies passed off on the net every second. to boot, you ran a definition from that site for 'rap music' not rap. try arguing the actual point in contest. further, you clearly can not read, as Salamander said the Oxford Dictionary of MUSIC , which is clearly not the same as the Oxford Dictionary. Considering she is a classically trained musician, as well as a music instructor, I would speculate (do you even know what that means? doubtful) that she knows of what she speaks, whereas you do not.







in conclusion, here is a picture of static (in 'posto' that i found on the web this afternoon.






http://manifestation.org/~ill/images/funny/ownednig.jpg

ChristCrusher, crawl back into whatever fucking hole you came out of and troll another board, you piece of shit! Are you too stupid to realize that when I said,.."If you feel that only the Oxford Dictionary can claim what music is, then that's your deal."...that it was in response to a quote RIGHT ABOVE these words, that pointed to the Oxford Dictionary of Music. Your the only one who couldn't understand such a simple thing.

Anyway, I'm done with your trolling. Your only purpose on these boards is to insult posters, and that picture you posted shows that your one sick fuck. You are the reason we have the ignore function, and I think I'll use it now.

hat "whining synth-noise" wasn't even close to being the first melodic element in rap music. And I'm sorry, but if you think of Kris Kross (who barely had rapping skills, and zero lyrical content), as trend setters you're way off...I heard it in KK before I heard it anywhere else. Melody was used way before these guys, check out an old LL Cool J album, for instanceYou mean like, "I Need Love"? Which song would you say is LL's best melodic exposition?This makes me wonder.., what did you find so melodic about the "whining synth-noise"?It moved in half and whole steps. It wasn't particularly melodic, but it's the primary thing I can remember from that period.Alos, what "rap" are you reffering to in "Thriller"?? You don't mean Vincent Price's talking???In fact, I am. It meets any definition of rap you wish to put up there, and, furthermore, is credited as a rap in the album liner notes.A rapper's flow must also be on pace with the beat, similiar to a singerThere is atonal and arrhythmic music. Why can there not be arrhythmic rap? Because nobody has done it well, yet?Once again, we could debate the "artistic legitimacy" of rap music, but I doubt we'll change our opinions on the matterI have no issues with the artistic legitimacy of rap, but rather with the terribly low standard set for artistic legitimacy in rap. Rap just isn't your cup of tea, we all have very different tastes. I never liked "grunge music" either, but once again we all have different tastes.I can't be said to own much grunge. It was my hometown music for a while, and we also have to stop and think about that movement. I'm not a proponent of grunge. Nor am I a proponent of heavy metal. Nor of rap. I prefer good music, artistic integrity, and innovative thinking. During the "grunge" rage, I had the fortune of being in Seattle and Oregon, never far removed from the music that would first save me from corporate pop culture and would then plunge me headlong back into it. Grunge, incidentally, was a horrible label, which was applied variously to Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, Goodness, Nirvana, Mudhoney, AiC, and others. Specifically, Nirvana is the cornerstone of grunge, but grunge is Silverchair, Toadies, and a host of bad prog-pop that got signed during the corporate feeding frenzy. If you ever happen across the movie Hype!, there's a great bit in there about a band called Seaweed being interviewed on MTV while not having released an album or played a show for a couple of years.

It's one of the problems I have with corporate pop music labels. Rap as presented by the pop culture definitely isn't my cup of tea. But rap, when it is performed with artistic integrity is as legit as anything else. As with grunge, I hold rap to the standard the genre itself sets. Industry standards are quite low, in general.No wonder you don't respect rap, if you think Vincent Price's talking was a rap...

The structure of his lyrics may have been poetic like that of rap, HOWEVER, he was merely speaking the words, he had no "flow" at all. His pace was independent of the beat, and he spoke with no rythymI think you just undermined yourself.

• The VP rap meets definitions of rap
• The VP rap is credited as a rap on the liner notes (and still is (http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=1991675877/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/artistid=JACKSON*MICHAEL/itemid=1437211))
• The VP rap was produced by Quincy Jones

I think it qualifies as a rap. You see, I have a problem with the standards of rap, and that's my problem. However, in order to maintain higher standards, you have to cut out parts of what rap is.

Furthermore, if you think there was no rhythm in Mr. Price's reading of the script, you're most likely responding to a limited definition of rhythm.

I am almost compelled to find for you the specific rhythm Mr. Price used, since it will be evident in the history of poetry and prose both. However, I have to admit, spending two days reading tables of hyphenated words adorned with proofreading marks just doesn't thrill me. I hope you can understand that. My first guess, and this based solely on memory, is that Mr. Price is reading the script in iambic pentameter, which makes sense. all things considered. (the FUNK of FOR-ty THOU-sand YEARS)Mix a Lot's, "Baby got Back" is one of the chessiest rap songs everNobody on his end ever pretended that it wasn't.I never heard of Black 47, maybe I'll check out this song to how bad it is.Have AIM? I might need to send you that one directly. As soon as I get my .mac account organized, though, I'll be happy to post it on my currently-unused homepage. (Right now, inexplicably, the only thing there is "Doctor Jeep" by Sisters of Mercy, and I can't figure out why.)Never heard of Roger Waters before, so I can't comment on him.Roger Waters is the second lead vocalist for Pink Floyd (after the decline of Roger "Syd" Barrett), and is also the impetus behind The Wall, and is currently putting together a ballet, of all things. Nonetheless, the Marv Albert interlude, comparing war to a sporting event, is quite hilarious and touching. (Live it's a hell of an experience, with twelve thousand people singing. But when Marv Albert asks that people please rise and sing the global anthem, oh, they do.)I think you vastly overrate the Beastie Boys, in my opinion.Because they can compose, perform, and produce better albums than most? They're the most prominent musical force in rap today.Many artists are ahead of them like Public Enemy, De La Soul, A Tribe called Quest, Nas, and Outkast just to name a few...Whatever you say. You're obviously the expert. One of the things that impresses me about Check Your Head is that it is both a musical rock album and a rap album. But as far as musical production within rap, I must necessarily disagree with you on that one.I was responding to your statement of.."Man, Eminem really is afraid of real musicians."I still think so. Real musicians have more credibility than popsters. That's why the threat instead of a more credible response.My feeling is that any comments that you disagree with, you will find dumb. You arrogantly assume that I like his songs because I'm "compelled" to by "commercial malaise", when you have no clue.It has nothing to do with disagreeing with me. It has everything to do with how one disagrees with me.When you say that commercial rap like "Kris Kross" and "Sir Mix a Lot" is your favorite rap albums owned, you show a complete lack of understanding for rap music.I can't remember ever saying that I had any real appreciation for Kriss Kross. Please point that out for me? You chastise me for liking what you deem "commercial", BUT your favorites are regarded as the epitome of commercial rap, by the rap industry. The irony of your statements are hilarious...Yeah. Mix-a-Lot sure was a vital force in the OG movement. Beastie Boys, like Nirvana, get a pass on that; I cannot hold people responsible for doing work so good that others have to imitate. And, as we see in the case of the Beasties, nobody can imitate them.

However, I'm not particularly worried about my tastes as a teenager (Mix A Lot, circa Swass; Beastie Boys, circa License, &c.) In the meantime, very little of the Beastie Boys press is about controversy because the writers have something better to discuss: musicality. Musically speaking, even Paul's Boutique has something to it that is admirable. Notwithstanding, of course, that it is the only album of its kind, and there will never be another. It is illegal now to make an album like that. Too bad; Paul's Boutique would have been a wonderful standard for others to aspire to, but the issues involved are that important.You obviously haven't read my posts outside of this thread. If you did, you would know that I despise the Media today.I don't see what that has to do with anything. I despise Apple every now and then, but I ain't gonna go out and get a Windows hunk just because of that. And, furthermore, I generally despise the main stream of commercial media. So, being that we both do, and if Sir Mix-A-Lot somehow stains my credibility, then what can we say of you?I live in LA and know far better than you about the struggles of today's actors, as I have many friends in the business.That sounds about as useful as a veteran who says Kent State was justified because "I served in the military, damn it, and until you do you don't have a right to criticize."

That you live in L.A. and therefore know far better the struggles of actors is so tenuous that I could easily say that you live in L.A. and are therefore that much more knowledgeable of bad music, as demonstrated by your appreciation of Eminem.There are alot of talented musicians all over the place, looking for their big break because of record label greed, I never disagreed with this. My problem is that you lump Eminem in this category when I don't.Maybe you don't get it. What sells sells. Eminem was a "safe" risk because of the history of controversial lyrics and the stewardship of Dr. Dre.

Now imagine that you are lyrically respected. And you get signed on your merits. And then you don't get to make the album you signed to make because they want you to put your talents in the backseat and give them another Eminem-type record. Living in L.A., then, I'm sure you've noticed how studios produce films in thematic groups in order to steal each other's thunder, and how in Burbank television shows often rearrange their plots in order to steal each other's thunder. And in light of that, I'm sure you've noticed how the pop charts are always rehashes of the same in attempts to capitalize on what has come before. Aside from the controversy, I don't see Eminem as particularly innovative. Well, actually, aside from the controversy, I don't see what's so important. I don't see the controversy as innovative. But if I put fifty songs in front of you and those are the only songs I let you hear when you go to clubs, listen to the radio, or watch MTV, we can reasonably assume that at least one will spend some time as your "favorite". Does it make that song "good"? No. Hell, its merit might be that it's the least annoying thing out there.

Think of it this way: you're Epic (becomes Sony). You have two bands. You really really like one of these bands. The other isn't particularly great. The one has made a great album. The other has made an album that strives to be mediocre. The one has made a rock and roll album that you can't figure out entirely. The other has rehashed the style that is currently selling like gangbusters. For whatever reasons, you only get to push one band.

Record companies are businesses.

Think of it in terms of business decisions. DGC had Nelson, and promoted them in their day instead of others they could have had. Why? Because innovation is a risk at that level, and it's best to bet safely on what's already selling.

I don't take issue with the fact that people can hear a song and like it. But in there, I also recognize that with some artists, there's a very good chance that the reason you heard the song in the first place has something to do with somebody paying someone else to make sure this album got played and another different. Even if it's at a party at your friend's house. "Where did you hear this, Bob?" Oh, heard it "on MTV"/"at the club"/"on the radio"/&c.

Take the song Who Let the Dogs Out? by Baha Men. I knew it was making ballpark circuits, but the "official" story that I caught on a VH-1 "one-hit-wonders" special notes that it was, in fact, in Seattle, at SAFECO Field, that Who Let the Dogs Out? became famous. (Sorry, guys ... if we could have helped it, we would have. We were just glad it wasn't Gary Glitter anymore.) Tell me something: Wow. Of all the songs you could have attached to the cutest superstar on the west coast (Alex Rodriguez), why this one? Of all the people who heard the song and liked it, I wonder what they would say to some other song that they might have heard that wasn't played over and over again for the cutie swinging at the plate?

But come on--that was a coordinated effort across industries to make a commercial product successful. I can remember endless remixes of "Boom! Shalakalakala!" a few years ago related to basketball. Really, with the phrase popping up in video games, on television, and so forth, the song needed no musical merit; it was a fun word that people liked to say.

But what should I say to anyone who thinks these songs got popular on their musical merits?

You know, the Macarena I can explain. Spend twenty years composing music and you're bound to have a catchy one. Or, write a rap song and think of a way to sell it that has nothing to do with performance or composition quality and you've got much better odds. But for those guys it was pretty much "for the music". After all, they really didn't put too much effort into extending their fifteen minutes of fame. But my problems with the Macarena are different.

I mean, when Al Gore gets to make the best joke about your song, ever, believe me, I notice. ;)

But I could probably remix "Time Warp" from Rocky Horror with a backbeat and a couple of funny sounds and make it popular. I was talking to a friend of mine about recording a rap single just for the hell of it yesterday. Between a G4 iMac belonging to a friend of mine with the right software suite onboard, and the gear in my basement, my roommates and I realized that all we needed now was a DJ, and we have several friends with turntables for scratching. Now, whether or not we feel like going forward with it is another thing. Just to show a bunch of people how easy it is to record a rap single is no reason to go recording rap singles.

Incidentally, I must correct my Last Rap Acquired ... I was pressed to think back to the last album I bought that had rap on it, and came up with the Gorillaz. However, I just came across a copy of the Elemental Records NorthWest Post-Grunge compilation, which strangely includes a few pre-grunge bands (Hitting Birth, Rhino Humpers, &c.) But I did come across Five Fingers of Funk's Watchyassworth, a very very musical rap worth mentioning. Technically, I think that is the last rap I happened to acquire insofar as acquisition date is concerned.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

(PS--Seattle/LA ... Grunge? Nirvana? Pearl Jam? How about "metal"? Dokken? Motley Crue? Should I point out that, living in Seattle, I know far better than you about good music and the trials of hardworking, dedicated good musicians? I mean, come on, LA has a spotty history to the point that the industry would move people from California to Seattle so that they could call themselves a "Seattle band". You may get to claim to know actors better, but Seattle is consistently better music. I mean, we ridicule the band Heart in this town a little bit because their 1980s phase. But Seattle's musical representation is consistently better than most, so it would seem that, based on your logic, I know far better than you about good music and the trials of the people who make it. Now then, should we dispense with such notions, or shall we make them part of the running discussion?)

here, since you obviously can not read/ integrate a thought pattern, let me put it in picture form for you.


Salamander referenced this:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0198691629.01._PE30_PIdp-schmoo2,TopRight,7,-26_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg




you keep talking about (something similar to ) this:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0198612583.01._PE30_PI_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg



get a clue, tard.

Originally posted by tiassa
I heard it in KK before I heard it anywhere else.
Fair enough, but they weren't the first.

You mean like, "I Need Love"? Which song would you say is LL's best melodic exposition?
Off the top of my head try "Jingling Baby" by LL.

In fact, I am. It meets any definition of rap you wish to put up there, and, furthermore, is credited as a rap in the album liner notes.

It is a reach to say that it was a rap, but I'll concede that by strict definition is was a rap.

See, we can agree on some things.:bugeye:

There is atonal and arrhythmic music. Why can there not be arrhythmic rap? Because nobody has done it well, yet?

Actually, many bad rappers have produced arrhythmic rap songs. The problem is they suck.:)

Rap without rythym just doesn't sound good, it's like a singer who is off key.

Because they can compose, perform, and produce better albums than most? They're the most prominent musical force in rap today.

I like the Beatsie Boy's musicand have been a fan for years, but they're not the most prominent musical force in rap today.

Outkast, Dr. Dre, and DJ Quik just for starters, are more prominent and they have composed, performed, and produced better albums than the Beastie Boys. But then this is a matter of opinion.

I can't remember ever saying that I had any real appreciation for Kriss Kross. Please point that out for me?

Your right my mistake. I saw Mack Daddy and thought you were reffering to Kris Kross.

Yeah. Mix-a-Lot sure was a vital force in the OG movement. Beastie Boys, like Nirvana, get a pass on that; I cannot hold people responsible for doing work so good that others have to imitate. And, as we see in the case of the Beasties, nobody can imitate them.


Mix a Lot wasn't really part of the OG movement, though I can see why you thought this.

Also, nobody could imitate Public Enemy, N.W.A., De La Soul, or OutKast, though many have tried.

That sounds about as useful as a veteran who says Kent State was justified because "I served in the military, damn it, and until you do you don't have a right to criticize."

That you live in L.A. and therefore know far better the struggles of actors is so tenuous that I could easily say that you live in L.A. and are therefore that much more knowledgeable of bad music, as demonstrated by your appreciation of Eminem.

LOL! True. I guess I did sound like one of those veterans.:p

But I only slipped this in because you keep making references to Seattle.

Maybe you don't get it. What sells sells. Eminem was a "safe" risk because of the history of controversial lyrics and the stewardship of Dr. Dre.

Maybe your the one that is missing the point, that Eminem was signed because of his lyrical skills. There is no conspiracy here, Dre liked his style, so he signed him.

Now imagine that you are lyrically respected. And you get signed on your merits. And then you don't get to make the album you signed to make because they want you to put your talents in the backseat and give them another Eminem-type record. Living in L.A., then, I'm sure you've noticed how studios produce films in thematic groups in order to steal each other's thunder, and how in Burbank television shows often rearrange their plots in order to steal each other's thunder. And in light of that, I'm sure you've noticed how the pop charts are always rehashes of the same in attempts to capitalize on what has come before. Aside from the controversy, I don't see Eminem as particularly innovative. Well, actually, aside from the controversy, I don't see what's so important. I don't see the controversy as innovative. But if I put fifty songs in front of you and those are the only songs I let you hear when you go to clubs, listen to the radio, or watch MTV, we can reasonably assume that at least one will spend some time as your "favorite". Does it make that song "good"? No. Hell, its merit might be that it's the least annoying thing out there.

The problem with your argument here is that you don't think Eminem got signed by Dre on his merits. When he won the Wake Up Show's Freestyle Performer Of The Year award, and finished runner-up in Los Angeles' annual Rap Olympics, that's when he got signed. Your assertion that Dre picked him up for controversy is wrong. There are MANY wannabe rappers who thrive on controversy, but they won't last if they suck.

As for the rest of you point, I totally agree. TV networks pick shows based on targeted demographics and how much money they can pull in from advertisers. Fox is the perfect example of this.., just about every hit show on TV get's copied by the Fox network. The funny thing is that I agree with you on most of the things you say, I just don't think that Eminem fits into the commercially made artist category.

I have to say that I have really enjoyed this debate with you tiassa. I honestly agree with your take on commercial driven music, I guess we just disagree what falls into that category.;)

I think we have hijacked this thread and taken it way off topic though, even if it did make it more interesting.

This is my last post in this thread, because I'm frankly sick of discussing Eminem..:D Some of our tastes and musical interests are different, and I say that's a good thing. Life would get very boring if we all liked the same things. I really respect the fact that you care for the hardworking artists, who haven't had their shot at fame(Though, I believe Eminem was one of these artists).

Anyway, thanks to you and justme for the good debate..

Originally posted by tiassa

Sad thing is that I'm not particularly upset at Marshall. Rather, if I bother to think about it, I'm more pissed at all the little spunkheads that buy his CD's and wear his hair.

Think about the tastes of collectives.


After rereading this, I see that I am not one of those "spunkheads". I download his music and I do not wear his hair. I do like listening to his songs though - and not because "everybody's doing it". I also listen to many other genres of music. I can only speak for myself; others might listen to his music just because their friends do. My guess is that they do actually "feel" his music: that perhaps his words do hit home for them.

What is your point? That Eminem is a controversial hypocrite? Controversy and hypocrisy are not unheard of in the United States.

And what about the girl pop stars (Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera...) and their loyal followers?

To conclude: it seems as though I am not one the millions of pop loyalists who have sold out for the mindless bliss of the bandwagon, but I wonder how many people really are? This last bit specifically relates to Eminem and his fanbase.

StaticAnyway, thanks to you and justme for the good debateIn a strange way, I rather did enjoy it. Thank you.

Phrenetic

Fair enough.

Oh, and of the Aguilera fans ... don't get me started. Unfortunately, Eminem himself got me started, so to speak. Without the VMA tantrum, I might never have said a word about him.

As to the point ...? Well, I think it has something to do with the bit about collective tastes. If I say I find Eminem a particularly disturbing expression of collective taste, please understand that I think most (American, at least) expressions of public taste are somewhere between mildly disturbing and downright distressing. At some point it becomes ridiculously too complex. But given my bleeding leftist heart, it's sort of a double offense to me. Not only do I dislike the crass consumer economy Americans are coming to depend on, but every once in a while, the expressions of taste defining what that consumer economy is supporting ... well, somewhere in there was the original point.

For instance, to examine a notion that was ugly in my day: Filthy music makes you behave filthy. By the gods, how many times have I heard that?

Turns out it's at least partway true, but we knew that when we were telling the PMRC where to shove it. But to follow on that vein: if the issue was, say, rebellious youth--Oh, the music is making them turn into hellions!--I'm all for it. Give the rebel yell. Shout at the devil. Tear down the walls. Don't take it. Wanna rock. One of the most delicate and difficult things to relate is a shocking association between certain catalysts and a result that lends credit to organizations like the PMRC. Beyond that, I end up in a tirade about Eminem again. Suffice to say that there is a general sense of a beeotch generation going around, and while Eminem is not to blame in any way for it, I do find the whole of it--original subcultures, artistic derivations, and direct expressions--rather distasteful for its refusal to communicate combined with its lament of not being understood. Throw that all in with the above and that's even more toward the point.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Rap without rythym just doesn't sound good, it's like a singer who is off key.You should hear William Shatner rap.

Trust me. It's better than when he sings.

(Hey! Mister Tambourine man, play a song for me ....)Mix a Lot wasn't really part of the OG movement, though I can see why you thought this.That was sort of my point. Nobody can explain the appeal of "Baby Got Back" until they've seen that many people shaking the same asses they're already drunk off. That's one of the things about music that I hear on the occasions that I get dragged to dance clubs. Some of it you can only like if you're drunk and hitting on someone. The guy I know who was actually mistaken for Eminem a couple of times picked up his Marshall habit because it sounded good on Ecstasy and lots of booze. I'm not sure that would increase my appreciation for it, but that's beside the point. More to the point, nobody ever pretended "Baby Got Back" was anything more than a novelty.Maybe your the one that is missing the point, that Eminem was signed because of his lyrical skills. There is no conspiracy here, Dre liked his style, so he signed him.One man's opinion? Okay.The problem with your argument here is that you don't think Eminem got signed by Dre on his merits. When he won the Wake Up Show's Freestyle Performer Of The Year award, and finished runner-up in Los Angeles' annual Rap Olympics, that's when he got signed. Your assertion that Dre picked him up for controversy is wrong.Would he have won if he rapped a knock-your-socks-off tribute to the posies in spring?

Okay, so I had a couple more things to say ...

Oh, and of "Jingling Baby" ... of course it's got melody. It's got very melodic samples of other songs .... (Sorry, but I just had to point that out ....) Oh, and that weird sound in the background that I most remember from Rob Base and EZ Rock's "It Takes Two" ... not quite the same but I always did wonder about those kinds of trends. Maybe that's why that whining noise in Kriss Kross stands out in my mind.)

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

static

Never heard of Roger Waters before, so I can't comment on him.

Roger Waters was the bass player for Pink Floyd. He wrote much of the lyrics/music. I find it odd you haven't heard of him especially after you make this statement:

I live in LA and know far better than you about the struggles of today's actors, as I have many friends in the business.

Anyone who admits to not knowing of Roger Waters is the same as admiting they know nothing about music. His songs span decades and are heard repeatedly every day. He will most likely go down in history as one of the most talented and prolific songwriters of our time, and way ahead of his time.

Will the same be said about Eminem ? Not a chance. He'll either be forgotten or end up on Hollywood Squares.

tiassa

Roger Waters is the second lead vocalist for Pink Floyd (after the decline of Roger "Syd" Barrett)

Shine on you crazy diamond. ;)

Originally posted by (Q)
Anyone who admits to not knowing of Roger Waters is the same as admiting they know nothing about music. His songs span decades and are heard repeatedly every day. He will most likely go down in history as one of the most talented and prolific songwriters of our time, and way ahead of his time.


Sorry Q, but I was never was a fan of Pink Floyd, therefore why would I know the name of it's members? Why would I learn the member's names in a band I didn't care for? I'm sure many don't know the names of the members of Public Enemy, or the Beasties Boys, BUT that wouldn't mean they could comment on rap music.

Frankly, this is why this thread has gotten pointless. You quote a line where I say I can't comment on Roger Waters, and you proclaim that I must know nothing about music. What is the point of this? I guess this negates my knowledge of everything concerning music, because I committed blasphemy and didn't learn the names of Pink Floyd (A band I never cared for).:rolleyes: My appreciation for John Lee Hooker, Miles Davis, the Beatles, Stones, Dylan, Clapton, Jimi Hendrix(my personal fav), Doors, Ramones, Public Enemy, and Outkast, means nothing to you.

Just a couple of things, I promise. ;)Why would I learn the member's names in a band I didn't care for?A fair question, and about the only things I can offer in response are a couple of simple points:

• Some of us can't help it. I mean, really, is Lance Bass really "news"? The best part of that whole episode was the human factor. First the mission captain says he doesn't want Bass, but if he has to have a celebrity, he wouldn't mind Cindy Crawford. And then Cindy Crawford says, "Only if it doesn't conflict with my schedule". And the whole time, this twit from N'Sync is all over the news. Not MTV news, but the news. So sometimes we have no choice but to learn the names of people in bands we don't like. (I changed the channel a few days ago when CNN was going to do a feature story on the love life of Justin Timberlake post-Britney.)

• You know, I have a vague appreciation for Mozart. I have a quiet affection for Rachmaninoff. I don't like a whole lot of Bach, and I find Beethoven annoying. I know their names, though, and a little bit about them. And, yes, Roger Waters will be remembered for The Wall, the definitive creation of the "rock opera" idea that people have tried to imitate since and have failed miserably. A short list of imitators: Styx, Kilroy Was Here; King Diamond, The Portrait, Abigail, Them, Conspiracy, The Eye, &c; Savatage, Streets: A Rock Opera ...My appreciation for John Lee Hooker, Miles Davis, the Beatles, Stones, Dylan, Clapton, Jimi Hendrix(my personal fav), Doors, Ramones, Public Enemy, and Outkast,Hmmm ... this sound familiar:You chastise me for liking what you deem "commercial", BUT your favorites are regarded as the epitome of commercial rap, by the rap industry. The irony of your statements are hilarious...It's just that, in light of that, I find it strange that you list so many well-known bands while referring to musical knowledge.

Take a look at the list: it almost looks like an order form from Columbia House.

It's not that I disapprove, but if you've heard the Doors, have you heard The Seeds? ("900 Million People Daily" is 10:22, and not easily obtained through Gnutella; however, Neil Norman, apparently the ONLY scholar on the band I've ever heard of, points out that the Doors heard The Seeds. And, in light of the organ sound in "900 Million People Daily" is very familiar. Or John Lee Hooker. I like his work, too, and both the blues Kings. But I think of Pinetop Perkins, Nolan Strock, Deborah Mc(Something), and a host of good blues that I hear on independent radio whose albums I have trouble finding even in Seattle's most respected blues stores. Like the Deborah Mc(Something) who released a rehash of a standard called "Raid This Joint". It was a great interpretation, and while people know what I'm talking about, it's hard to find a web reference or even a copy of the album. Miles Davis? I've got a couple of albums sitting on my shelf, and Bitches' Brew mp3'd. But I also think of Yvonne Cannon (R&B/jazz vocalist) and Rockin' Teenage Combo (instrumental jazz), or a band called _____ (it's an alphabetic name, but "ABC" is the only thing to mind, and that's definitely not it) that I saw play El Matador in New Orleans, who had played shows with Seattle's BeBop & Destruction. I feel badly, for instance, that compared to RTC, Ollie (original drummer) made more money playing in Gruntruck (grunge, anyone?)

Nonetheless, while I'm sure your tastes do include bands of the main artery, one does wonder. I suppose it's also a matter of external influence. Someone mentioned Spin magazine, earlier, which I found telling. I find Spin to be a schill to the pop culture, but that's not a huge point for argument. Rather, I read Mojo, Q, and Tape Op for my music press, largely because the musicians in my company read them.

A short list of names: Robert Poss, Kevin Shields, Alan Mulder, Tony Williams, The Wrecking Crew, Phil Specter, Carol Kay, Jack Endino, Terry Date.

Can anyone connect The Melvins to My Bloody Valentine? The connection comes through the band Wire. A member of The Melvins worked on a side project called Tomahawk. Tomahawk also includes a member of Helmet. Helmet also featured a guy named Robert Poss, who played in a side project which would cover a song by Wire. My Bloody Valentine covered "Map Ref 41N 93W". Now, it seems like an interesting game of "Kevin Bacon", doesn't it? Until you stop and look in at these characters. In that little grouping are two who set studio recording standards (Poss, and Kevin Shields of MBV), The Melvins (the loudest band in grunge, and loudest band I'd ever heard until they opened for Tool), Jesus Lizard, considered seminal somehow by their fans and also many critics. Music itself is rich, rich history in progress. Part of what bothers me about the pop culture is that when I hear what I call "real musicians" talking, or read their interviews, they are talking about musical ideas, not blowing ego smoke or raising controversy. There may never be another Pearl Jam tour because it was never supposed to get so big that people should die for joy; I sat there and listened to Eddie proclaim "This is the last time we ever do this". Nonetheless, an album is coming from the band and we all hope they tour. But you'll notice that the band never tried to defend their place. They merely showed that they were appalled, they mourned their lost fans, and they made some very personal decisions about music and money. And if they never tour again, and only play the shows their conscience moves them to (e.g. Bridge School benefit), I cannot protest.

In the meantime, I might recommend the film 24 Hour Party People, only vaguely historical, but still a riot. And I'm not even a fan of goth or acid house. If you manage to catch it on a big screen, be careful. The film is made to make you feel like you're on drugs, an effect both stunningly successful and annoying in places. I don't know how that effect will play out on DVD. But it's a great movie that takes a peek inside The Factory of British lore (Joy Division, Stone Roses, &c.) Or watch Hype! What amazes me about that film is how whiny the musicians are. But you hear a constant refrain from the musicians about their music, and how badly pop culture screwed up everything in their town. And they've got a point.

The simplest difference is explained thus: Remember the pop-metal of the 1980s? Remember bands like Cinderella? Cinderella is important to me. Until their particular blues-exploitation albums, I didn't pay much attention to the blues. And then one day I caught Tom Keifer in an interview talking about Muddy Waters. After that, I tuned into the last alternative music show on commercial radio at the time in Seattle, a blues show on a now-defunct radio station. Since that day fifteen years or so ago, I've built a certain appreciation for blues. Why? Because the one time one of my pop heroes talked about music in a manner that didn't equal something like the time King Diamond was asked his favorite three albums without further comment (Uriah Heep?), he taught me something. Yeah, this sprayed, glittering, scratchy-throated pop diva actually hooked me on blues. Most fans of pop culture don't seem to pay that kind of attention.

The best explanation is that most of what's going on in pop music has little if anything to do with music. Think about grunge for a second. Why was it so ferociously accepted by the pop culture? Because in 1992, the pop culture was amid a drought of several years: Paula Abdul radio pop and rap were the only things you could hear. People were so happy to hear rock and roll on the radio again that they flocked to it. After all the technical wizardry of making these divas sound reasonably good on tape, all anyone wanted was three chords and some beer.

We may differ on whether Eminem is part of that negative pop culture, but I really don't see any signs that he isn't. For instance, a recommendation: if in response to charges of lyrical impropriety, brutism, and absolute idiocy, Marshall was to express himself in certain terms, he would gain credibility. If he starts talking about where he lifted his beats and samples and why those are important, and how he put them together for a desired effect ... if he starts speaking the music, then more of the musical community, including those who dislike his product, would come to his defense. They may hate what he says, but they'll defend his right to say it once they figure out there's a legitimate reason to be saying it. In the meantime, it's his right to say it, but nobody's going to help boost his sales by feeding the controversy. That's what's so dumb about the Moby conversation. Asking Moby what he thinks of Eminem right after someone proposes that Eminem should be the "King of Rock and Roll" is a pretty dumb thing to do. Moby, like many others, would not have said word one if the question had not been put to him. I wonder what Marshall would have done if it was, say, Tad, who gave him shite. And on that note, I do miss Wendy O. Williams, who could teach Marshall a thing or two about handling controversy. Seriously, if Marshall dropped the bitch-homo-pussy-faggot routine and started stripping down and blowing up Cadillacs or chainsawing Harley-Davidsons onstage, I'd be more inclined to see it, even though it would be a knockoff routine. Why? Because naked people blowing things up is hilarious in its own right, and if you're going to go out for ridiculous entertainment, it ought to be dedicatedly ridiculous. There is no excuse for half-assed professional immaturity.

It's not like I have no ties to the pop culture. But there is a mentality in this country that popular equals good that transcends mere musical tastes. (Look at the Iraqi Bush War situation ....)

And I reject that presumption. I even go so far as to resent it. It's all well and fine for people to like what they like, but I'm getting tired of the aggrandizing of taste. I like Phillip Glass compositions from time to time, yet I don't call them symphonic. (Deliberate minimalism is a standing artistic mode; I don't call Glass scores anything more than they are: scores by Phillip Glass. I'm a huge fan of Band of Susans' exploration of Chatham's "Guitar Trio", but I'm not going to pretend that it's anything other than 13 minutes of one note in a tonal/rhythmic exploration. I did, in fact, enjoy "Baby Got Back", as well as others ("Sprung on the Cat"), but nobody pretended they were anything other than novelty. (And when the Justice Department began surveying Mix-A-Lot as a possible dangerous person--because of the song "My National Anthem", which was sandwiched between "Beepers" and "Gore-Tex" just for reference, Mix-A-Lot did not get up and make excuses. He told people to think what they want and then went on with his business. And then he floored those critics with "The Jack Back". As I recall, nobody really took issue with the song because it was so clear: stop f@cking with black people. Yes it was violent: don't shoot at a black man just because he's black; he might also be better-armed than you. Seemed clear enough to most.

And in that sense, there is a line to be drawn in all art. Crossing that line should not equal censorship, but material that will be considered "controversial" also involves other ideas. Take Eminem: maybe he's got a point, but his expression isn't good. I'll explain what I mean by that. Take books. Many have been censored, burned, &c. But the paucity of the censors is that they don't realize how ineffective they are. And here I'm not talking about the "Harry Potter" sorceries or the strange process that made Madeline L'Engle a communist lesbian (?!). Think instead of Brett Easton Ellis, who gained infamy after his book was rejected by three publishers who intended to sign him. He did the whole controversy routine. They're not ready for my level of expression, &c. Of course, the publishers all had a good line, too. "It's not the book per se, but the fact that this is not the book we agreed to when we began negotiations. This is not the book he claimed to be selling us." In the end, American Psycho sold many copies, raised many hackles. Today, Brett Easton Ellis is old news. He didn't last because there wasn't enough artistic merit to it. At no time was it a "good book" in any literary sense; that is, I know people who think of porno films that way. Okay, I tell them, it's a good porno, but is it really a good piece of cinematic art? And part of the reason Ellis is old news, in addition to the lack of merit in American Psycho is that his other books suck, too. "Less Than Zero" was better in movie form, and "Rules of Attraction" ... well, it had an interesting narrative perspective, but not a new one. And it was a horrible novel to boot. Ellis went by the wayside because he had no artistic merit. There are a lot of bands that raised hackles to similar degrees as Eminem has. Not many of them are around today because they haven't the artistic merit to continue their fame. As for Eminem--we'll see what comes.

I promise you: so long as one remains that close to the pop culture as you have expressed, one is missing certain fascinating, fun, enriching, enlightening experiences within music.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Damn it tiassa! Will you stop pulling me back into this thread...:D

First, my post was in response to Q's comments, not yours. Second, the artists I listed are just a few that I named off the top of my head. I'm really not sure why you have the need to deconstruct each artist, just to try and say that I'm blinded by pop culture.
I promise you: so long as one remains that close to the pop culture as you have expressed, one is missing certain fascinating, fun, enriching, enlightening experiences within music.

Screw it tiassa, your right... I'm nothing but a pawn of pop culture..:(:(

Being a fan of artists like John Lee Hooker, Miles Davis, the Beatles, Stones, Dylan, Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Doors, Ramones, Public Enemy, and Outkast, shows just how blinded by pop culture I am...:rolleyes:

How could I have musical tastes that differ with tiassa's, what was I thinking???????:confused:


*Static wanders off, not realizing the fascinating, fun, enriching, enlightening experiences within music, that he's missing...*

P.S. - This is without a doubt my last post in this thread....;)

I'm nothing but a pawn of pop cultureAs long as you recognize it. Of course, even by your own descriptions of the pop culture, I'm left to wonder what's so distressing to you about it. You seem to enjoy its merits while I have a problem seeing the merits clearly.

Don't resent yourself for what you are. If it's that problematic, change is easy. Especially like this. Go to an independent record store and buy something you've never heard of before. It might suck, as is a natural occurrence, but it's sometimes nice to decide that without Spin magazine's say-so.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

(PS--It has been a fun go-round. I thank you for that.)

i just read all your new posts, and i really got some things to say again hehe:D but i got no time right now, its my birthday today yay!! but dont think i gave up on this thread;), i'll be back:cool: and comment soon when i got time

DAMNIT!! i just made this whole big post with all my comments, then my puter freezes up arghhhhh i lost it all:(, i have only a little part because i copied and pasted that to word..but i lost the rest of it..i will post up what i still got and maybe if i still feel like typing the rest i will do that some other time..im to pissed of right now to do it again..

Is it easy enough to see? What else do I need to explain to you? (Seriously, and without sarcasm I ask that.)
i get it, but lots of people use that kind of expressions, just like you said something is 'gay', it just unfortunatly grown into society to say things that way...
Do you ever do the club or underground scenes? Ever get out and watch and listen to the plethora of bands on the underground and club circuits? For instance, Floater, who plays to rooms of 300 to 5000. They are well-respected on the west coast. They turned down a record contract because they weren't going to take their 75-minute masterpiece, cut out all the slow songs, write new material, and present it as a 59-minute heavy-metal album of collected airplay-ready singles. This is a question most face when they are offered a record contract. However, if Floater had a Chris Cornell or a Lemmy Killmister to go on television and go to MTV and go to record executives to create a stir for them, they could rule the nation.
seems like you think eminem gave up his style and has been turned into something different by dr. dre? is that what you believe? well i want you to take a look at this then:
slim shady ep track list, (click here (http://www.eminemworld.net/lyrics/ssep.shtml) for the link):
Intro
Low Down Dirty
If I Had...
Just Don't Give A fuck
Mommy (Interlude)
Just the Two of Us
No One's Iller Than Me
Murder, Murder
If I Had [radio edit]
I Just Don't Give A [radio edit]

slim shady lp, tracklist (click here (http://www.eminemworld.net/lyrics/sslp.shtml) for the link):
My Name Is
Guilty Conscience
Brain Damage
Paul (skit)
If I Had
97 Bonnie & Clyde
Bitch (skit)
Role Model
Lounge (skit)
My Fault
Ken Kaniff (skit)
Cum On Everybody
Rock Bottom
I Just Don't Give A fuck
Soap (skit)
As The World Turns
Im Shady
Bad Meets Evil
Still Dont Give A fuck


now read this (link here (http://www.eminemworld.net/bio.shtml) ):
Dr. Dre was so impressed after hearing Eminem freestyling on a Los Angeles radio station that he put out a manhunt for the Michigan rhymer. Shortly thereafter, Dre signed Eminem to his Aftermath imprint and the two began working together. Thoroughly impressed with Eminem's previously released independent Slim Shady EP, Dre said they would include many of the EP's tracks on the album.
After being thoroughly disappointed and hurt by the response Infinite received, Eminem began working on what would later become the Slim Shady EP -- a project he made for himself. Featuring several scathing lines about local music industry personalities as well as devious rants about life in general, the set quickly caught the ear of hip-hop's difficult-to-please underground.
"I had nothing to lose, but something to gain," Eminem says of that point in his life. "If I made an album for me and it was to my satisfaction, then I succeeded. If I didn't, then my producers were going to give up on the whole rap thing we were doing. I made some sh*t that I wanted to hear. The Slim Shady EP, I lashed out on everybody who talked sh*t about me."

as you see, the slim shady ep was BEFORE dr dre even knew eminem, eminem came up himself with slim shady, NOT dr dre. As you see, 3 of the songs from the slim shady ep, were also released on the album (with dr. dre) slim shady lp. the 3 songs are: if i had, just the two of us/ 97 bonnie & clyde (same song, check out the lyrics, you'll see) and just dont give a fuck... the song murder murder (remix) on the Next Friday soundtrack, was the orginally murder murder song from the slim shady ep..(link
here (http://www.eminemworld.net/lyrics/MurderMurder(remix).shtml) as you see eminem didnt have to change himself, or give up his style to be signed to dr. dre...dr. dre let him be his own self eminem aka slim shady and didnt change him into something else or forced him to write his lyrics differently than he already did...Without the intervention of Dr. Dre, how far would Eminem have gotten?
of course we will never know the answer to this question, because it happened this way..but if you realise that he already was getting bigger and bigger before dr dre found out about him ('By presenting himself as himself, Eminem and his career took off. Soon after giving the Rap Coalition's Wendy Day a copy of the Infinite album at a chance meeting, she helped the aspiring lyrical gymnast secure a spot at the Coalition’s 1997 Rap Olympics in Los Angeles, where he won second place in the freestyle competition.', link here (http://www.eminemworld.net/bio.shtml), as you see not only dr. dre saw something in him, there were lots of people who saw his talent) you can think that it was only a matter of time that someone big would find out about him..but we will never know how it would have been without dr. dre and really thats not something worth thinking about it..From the looks of the review on the page you offered, it seems that there is some question about that genius i really dont care what one review says..its what i think of it..reviews are there to read other peoples opinions, and you can agree with it or not..its not there to be taken over blindly and put your own opinion to the side..i absolutly dont agree with what this review says..although its true he got more serious, but is that a bad thing?? i think its not..it just shows something different..and you say 'there is some question about that genius' , actually the review said nothing about that...it doesnt even give any constructive good arguments to back up his opinion..

and what i think is very funny that you quote this part of me: AGAIN you didnt read my post before...i will quote it for you again, and maybe you can do your absolute best to read it...AND remember it this time..here we go, this is about the song you had took the margot kidder line from

and answer like this:
From the looks of the review on the page you offered, it seems that there is some question about that genius

hmmm that what you said had absolutly nothing to do with what i said...i was talking about the margot kidder line, being from a really old song..and you start about him being a genius..doesnt make much sense??

Of Devil's Night ... the reviews are not the kindest.
the first link you gave, this one (http://www.artistdirect.com/store/artist/album/0,,1118515,00.html) i think is really not a bad review?? i know its an album with lots of controversy...it was meant to be that way..the album is about their city detroit..'devils night' refers to the night before halloween in detroit, which is called (how surprisingly:D) devils night..thats when people come out of their homes and trash the whole city, burning down cars..stuff like that..so yea the city is full of controversy BUT the review seem to be positive too:
'But to dismiss the album strictly because of its themes would be unfortunate. As challenging as it may be for many to stomach the constant and incredibly explicit sex, violence, and drug references, there is a stunning album lurking beneath that deserves recognition' and it goes on..'In fact, Eminem's beats often contest the few equally impressive tracks that Dre contributes. Besides the remarkable production, Eminem also showcases his blossoming genius on several of the song's hooks, bringing a pop-rap approach to hardcore lyrics'

now the other .review (http://www.dotmusic.com/artists/Eminem/reviews/June2001/reviews20737.asp) you gave:
'The D12 boys drop rhymes like: "Niggas want pussy and I want cash / So Ma, get out there and start selling your dirty ass'..this line is from the member bizarre..he has less talent than the rest of the 5 members..its just obvious he likes to shock and be funny at the same time..but he doesnt really got good rhyming skills nor rap skills like the other 5 members do..

i get it, but lots of people use that kind of expressions, just like you said something is 'gay', it just unfortunatly grown into society to say things that way...Perhaps you missed the point. If I use words like "faggot" and "homo" as insults, it's a little like calling a guy a woman to insult him. Being a faggot or a homo or a woman is intended to be a derogatory state.seems like you think eminem gave up his style and has been turned into something different by dr. dre? is that what you believe?Nope. I was pointing out that Eminem had an easier route for him. Most bands don't have a Doctor Dre on their side. It's easier, incidentally, to get your "style" through the record-company grinder if it's commercially viable. As with EMI/Capital Group and the Floater story. The record company didn't believe that you or the next fan, or even I who followed this band knew what we liked. They wanted to sign a band that people liked, and then form the band into something it isn't because commercial viability is more important at that level than artistic integrity. If I accept into consideration your implication that Eminem did not "give up his style", we can see that it is commercially viable, a state of being that is separate from "good" or "having artistic integrity". After all, Tiffany, Christina Aguilera, and Wreckx 'n' Effects were all popular. In fact, the latter toned down their single for commercial success, and remade the video. What's that? A rap outfit after sales and not artistic integrity? But WnE are beside the point, technically. Floater recorded once with Drew Canulette of Dogfish Mobile, who also recorded for Soundgarden. If we were to draw a parallel story, then, and say that Rob, being a strong vocalist, conceptualist, and songwriter, was "taken under the wing" of his Dogfish connection, that is, taken under the wing of Chris Cornell, and walked through A&M records, Floater, too, could have their albums promoted to the legions of fans just awaiting the next proclamation of who's cool enough listen to.

The music is more important to them. It's why I buy their albums and go to their shows. They know they'll do fine without the major-league record industry. In the meantime, they're progressing in leaps and bounds, far outshining their major-label cousins (e.g. System of a Down once opened for Floater).of course we will never know the answer to this question, because it happened this way..but if you realise that he already was getting bigger and bigger before dr dre found out about himAnd Soundgarden, on A&M, were getting bigger and bigger with minimal promotion. Yet you'll notice that the band that didn't play ball was the one of the last major Seattle bands to the charts. How did that happen? I mean, even Mudhoney got pushed onto MTV before Soundgarden and, as I noted earlier, the movie Hype! features an MTV crew tracking down a band that hadn't played for a couple of years, something they could manufacture into a ratings ploy.

I'll tell you a little bit about how its done: Don't bow to the record companies, produce the best album possible, thrill the fans who like your music, and when you get your chance, as Soundgarden did, blow the new fans out of the water. Essentially, what happened is that Soundgarden opened for a number of bands, including Guns 'n' Roses, with the effect of outperforming the headliners on a regular basis. We have somewhere a bootleg of a Soundgarden Badmotorfinger concert opening for GNR; you can just see the fans getting blown away. They had no idea what they were seeing. I mean, when you stop and think that Candlebox was called a Seattle band before Soundgarden earned proper recognition, it becomes quite apparent that the record company thinks in terms of profits. The reason Eminem is so available to the crowd is because record companies made him so. (Watch, starting about 1994, 1995, how Soundgarden treats MTV; strangely, you'll notice that Queensrÿche, a band that definitely profited from payola and other record-company hijinks, behaved similarly. It's the way we feel about music up here. The record companies are an unfortunate reality, but at some point they're going to blow it (as they're presently doing) by foisting crap onto the fans and they'll be forced to play ball. When Virgin records announced a contest in 2000 or so for the "best single", the prize for which would be a recording contract, people were stunned; Virgin, one of the dirtiest, sleaziest record companies out there, seemed to have gotten the message. The whole point was they wanted to market your album straight from your hands. It was their way of trying to figure out how to release an album without tampering with it or the market. We were all impressed, but I have no idea who won the contest or where the album actually is. I'll check into that; I don't recall that anyone I know who was watching that corner ever figured it out.

Point being, you cannot convince me that Eminem's career path is the same as "just any other" musician of the quality some allege Eminem to be.

Incidentally, one of my favorite songs of the 1980s is called "Echo Beach", and is by a band called Martha and the Muffins. I heard the song in 1986 or thereabout, and it would be 15 years before I permanently possessed a copy of it and knew the name of the artist. Looking back, with 15 years' retrospect, I can't figure out why the song wasn't #1. The answer is because the record company didn't care. It had bigger game to pursue, and invested its efforts in other bands, raising them to success for the profits of record sales.

Seriously: the record industry tells you when a song is a hit, often before it comes out. The nearest thing I can get to that among more legitimate quarters of the recording industry is Mojo magazine's positive speculation about the coming Supergrass record, which goes (approximately): It's new, it's different. If you're a Supergrass fan, you'll probably love it.

But I don't expect to see a company-sponsored advert in the middle of prime time telling me that the song nobody's heard and won't be out for two weeks is already a hit.reviews are there to read other peoples opinions, and you can agree with it or not..its not there to be taken over blindly and put your own opinion to the sideThat's the sad thing about reviews. They're oriented now toward consumer priorities, and not artistic priorities. The "critics" of the modern day are mere shadows of their former selves. In other words, it used to be that you could expect a critic to have something more than an opinion to offer.and you say 'there is some question about that genius' , actually the review said nothing about that...it doesnt even give any constructive good arguments to back up his opinion..That's the nature of modern criticism. How many pages would you have preferred the critic spend on it?

•_"He and Dr. Dre are starting to repeat themselves."
•_"The Eminem Show lacks the overwhelming, single-minded force that The Marshall Mathers LP had."
• "The best moments feel unique, yet somehow isolated from one another ...."

So, if opinion is what makes something popular and, apparently, therefore, good, what is so invalid about a critic's opinion? Mr. Cawn even lists tracks for reference, and I'm not sure what, short of a beat-by-beat discourse, you would like for him to back up his opinion. He's speaking consumer-speak, and this is about the necessary depth of it.

Of course, he could write a monograph for a review, and then Marshall would have someone to pick on for the next album ....and what i think is very funny that you quote this part of me: AGAIN you didnt read my post beforeActually, I did. See, what I think is funny is when we put the two and two together and expect four, only to find that we have two and three. After all, people keep telling me about his lyrical genius. While that talent is not apparent in critical perceptions of the music, I find it even more interesting that my question about the validity of Eminem's lyrical genius is answered by the notion that he's not a lyrical genius.

That's fair enough for me. I just wanted to make sure. It seems to me that the reviews demonstrate that the lyrical genius may not be as apparent as some think. If the lyrics were bad on Infinite and they seem disconnected, or rehashes of old ground (per the page you provided), I'm having a hard time seeing the trend that lends toward his lyrical genius or lyrical talent or lyrical knack or lyrical whatever.the first link you gave, this one i think is really not a bad review??Fair enough. I mean, when your lyrical talent shines against a backdrop of juvenile shock-rap, how can I possibly argue?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

(PS--regarding the troubles you had with that post--are you writing in the browser window or into a text editor? Are you using a Windows machine? Try your Notepad or Word Pad. I've found them to be much more stable composition tools than an input window on a php page running on Internet Explorer on any platform. I was posting at Sciforums for a year before I finally broke myself of the habit of composing in the browser window.)

something totally of topic first..any of you have the same problem as me, that if you log in and then type out your post and you press on the submit reply or preview reply button, that it says you are not logged in? while you are? and that if you push the back button then that most of the time your whole post you just typed is totally gone? this is so annoying..i always copy and paste it to word lately, but its still annoying..

Ok now, ill give it another chance..i will go further with where i lost it last time…

this review (http://www.dotmusic.com/reviews/Albums/May2002/reviews25212.asp ) you mentioned:
- ‘Consider the evidence. In 'Cleanin Out My Closet', he unleashes an astonishingly corrosive torrent of hatred towards his parents, saying "I've got some skeletons in my closet/and I don't know if no-one knows it", but the fact is we've heard the story repeated for years now.’

This is actually nonsense..eminem never made a serious song about his mother before..he always used to diss her in a funny way, and would just mention her in like only one sentence. Example:
Song: my name is: ‘I just found out my mom does more dope than I do’
Song: Role model: ‘Mother.. are you there? I love you.. I never meant to hit you over the head with that shovel’
Song: kill you: ‘When I just a little baby boy, my momma used to tell me these crazy things She used to tell me my daddy was an evil man, she used to tell me he hated me But then I got a little bit older and I realized, she was the crazy one But there was nothin I could do or say to try to change it cause that's just the way she was’

He never made a song before about what actually happened, or that was so serious as cleaning out my closet, in this song he really tells his personal story..so what the reviewer said is nonsense to me..

More importantly, though, who says Marshall has to keep rapping? Or does the critic have him wrong, too?
Well yes the critic took eminem a bit to seriously here..eminem explained in several interviews that he wrote the song ‘say goodbye to hollywood’ in a time that he was going through a lot of shit..it was just a moment in time that he felt that way, and thats when he wrote it..most of the time he doesnt want to quit and he says he wouldnt be able to stop rapping because hiphop and rapping are his life, and he loves it, although there are downsides to the fame, he wouldnt want to quit..

Reviewer: ‘The world he inhabits is a twisted, cruel, horrific place, even if what we see of it is simply entertainment. On 'When The Music Stops', he outlines the perks of the position: "no laughs, no friends, no girl, just the gin you drink".
Well this sentence shows a lot to me..it shows me something veryy interesting..you know what it shows me? (im sure tiassa dont know because tiassa is just like the reviewer is)..it tells me that the reviewer didnt even hear the eminem show..probably just glanced through the lyrics..do you know how i know this? Because eminem doesnt rap that sentence in ‘when the music stops’, that part of the lyrics is from a member of d12, kon artis, and not by eminem..

‘And on 'When The Music Stops' he reaches the only possible conclusion pointing the gun to his own head and pulling the trigger.’
Now i am sure that he didnt listen..that wasnt eminem putting the gun to his head..that was another member of d12..bizarre..if you as reviewer not even know this..then why should i take the review seriously?? He uses these sentences to back up things about eminem, while eminem didnt even write the lyrics…shows me enough of how seriously the reviewer took a listen..

‘On 'Superman', his attitude towards women is appalling, but this isn't dumb, kneejerk sexism, it's ingrained, full grade misogyny. He f**king hates, mistrusts, undervalues and fears every girl on the planet save his daughter, always haunted by his mother and ex-wife. At times, he sounds like Norman Bates. At others, he is unforgivable: "I'll put anthrax on your tampax and slap you til you can't stand."
This song is about the groupie girls that hang around eminem and want him to sleep with them, or they only want to be with him because he’s famous, or only want his money…

‘Marshall Mathers has the talent and sheer force of personality to rap his shopping list and diary of business appointments during the last tax month of 2002 and still we're hooked. We've heard it all before, we know the punchline, we've bought into the joke, but still we want the delivery again and again.’
I think this is nonsense, all the albums of eminem are different…they arent the same at all..i wonder if he even listened to the slim shady lp or marshall mathers lp, knowing of what he said about the eminem show i think not..

But given that it's over one year later, don't we find Marshall's determination to keep this up just a little obsessive
Well no its not over one year later…moby said some stuff about eminem like a month ago, in august, about hailie growing up and dating an abusive guy and it being eminem’s fault, because he says this is ok..so not a year ago..

Some people question the antics of some bad news boys of hip-hop: Are they in character or out of character?

Well, get this: The bad blood between Eminem and Moby almost turned violent at the recent MTV Video Music Awards when the best-video winner's posse chased Moby during a commercial break, according to The New York Post.

Moby ran and jumped into a chair in the audience at Radio City Music Hall when Eminem's army approached him, a source told the paper.

"They were pointing fingers at him and saying stuff like, -- We're going to get you after the show,' " says a witness. "Moby ran and jumped into the seat in front of us to get away."

When Eminem accepted his award for Best Male Video for "Without Me," a song in which he ridiculed Moby, he took another potshot at the bespectacled techno titan. "I don't know what to say, that little Moby girl threw me out of my game," Eminem said to a chorus of boos.

"Keep booing, little girl. I will hit a man with glasses."

Responding to Eminem's ill-humored and ill-timed behavior, Moby posted a response Friday on his official Web site: "The truth is that I honestly, in all sincerity, thought that the whole Eminem thing was done in some semblance of humor until Eminem called me a p---y that was off-camera and then threatened to beat me up. Ah, well. I think that Eminem is talented and interesting but I'm kind of stunned at the anger that he has for me seeing as I'd never met him up until last night." (St. Augustine Record, 9.02.2002)

If this is true..that eminem chased moby around and said that..then i think he went way to far..and i do consider that as a treat of violence..BUT i really dont know if i should believe this. i tell you why..it says one source..one witness…come on!! the whole vma was packed with people!!! And just one witness seen this?? Thats just to ridiculous..then it must have happened in the commercial break..a commercial break is from 3 to 5 minutes..so ok mtv says: we are going through a commercial break now..eminem chases moby in commercial break..eminem threatens moby..the whole audience must be going wow whats happening here..commotion is happening in the audience by seeing this..and then mtv comes back from the commercial and NOTHING shows that something just happened there..that people are stunned and shocked by what they just saw happening..it just sounds very unlikely to me..and then when should this have happened?? after that eminem received his second award he didnt go back into the audience, so it should have happened before the puppet dog..i really doubt it..BUT if it is true (i rather would hear it from the source mtv itself, or from a lot of artists being at the vma’s who saw it and can confirm it), then i think eminem really went WAY to far..

If I missed it, take some pleasure in that fact and then point the damn posts out please.
Static76: You should check out "Guilty Conscience" - which satires and reflects the moral thinking of many in our society today.

Listen to "Stan" - that covers the very thing you seem to despise.., Eminem fans, and shows how taking his lyrics literally can lead to disaster. Here is the last verses of this song, where Eminem is writing a letter back to his crazed fan...
Dear Stan, I meant to write you sooner but I just been busy
You said your girlfriend's pregnant now, how far along is she?
Look, I'm really flattered you would call your daughter that
and here's an autograph for your brother,
I wrote it on the Starter cap
I'm sorry I didn't see you at the show, I musta missed you
Don't think I did that shit intentionally just to diss you
But what's this shit you said about you like to cut your wrists too?
I say that shit just clownin dogg,
c'mon - how fucked up is you?
You got some issues Stan, I think you need some counseling
to help your ass from bouncing off the walls when you get down some
And what's this shit about us meant to be together?
That type of shit'll make me not want us to meet each other
I really think you and your girlfriend need each other
or maybe you just need to treat her better
I hope you get to read this letter, I just hope it reaches you in time
before you hurt yourself, I think that you'll be doin just fine
if you relax a little, I'm glad I inspire you but Stan
why are you so mad? Try to understand, that I do want you as a fan
I just don't want you to do some crazy shit
I seen this one shit on the news a couple weeks ago that made me sick
Some dude was drunk and drove his car over a bridge
and had his girlfriend in the trunk, and she was pregnant with his kid
and in the car they found a tape, but they didn't say who it was to
Come to think about, his name was.. it was you
Damn!


A song from his current album you should check out is "Cleaning out my Closet", which tells why he hates his Mother and the things she has done to him. It may give you alot of insight as to who he is, and where his views are coming from. .

me: first of all, you downloaded the wrong song, to really hear what eminem is about. the one static76 said are indeed very good songs.

Once again, the poor excuse that not buying something suspends the right to have an opinion about it?
No you obviously dont get me: i said: 'i actually listened to his albums and you didnt and still you think you owe the absolute truth and know everything about his songs and lyrics.'
I will give you an example..I never listened to one song of Alicia Keys..but still I would go on a message board, tell people that she has absolutly no talent at all..that she absolutly isnt a part of making the music..that she obviously is a racist because people accused her of this, while I didnt listen to her songs or saw any of her interviews, but if someone says she is, it probably is true, right?? Because people NEVER gossip or talk out of their ass so all you hear around you is true..for the rest i dont like her songs at all (while i never listened to a song)..they are stupid pop and she cant sing or rhyme..so nah she sucks..and oh yea people only buy her music because she looks so hell good and all the guys want to fuck her..

Do you get my point?? I cant possibly say those things if i never even heard her music..well you can say it..but it shows that the points that are being made arent valid, because you didnt research it..you are not taking the time out to listen to someone seriously, but still you think you know everything and you think you can tell people that did listen to it are wrong because they are not intelligent..THIS is what i meant, and not that you should buy eminems music because you will think differently, im just saying listen to it seriously, and then come back and tell me what you think and i might listen to you seriously and think your points are valid because you researched what you are talking about..

(just a little note with this: no no one ever said alicia keys is a racist, but it was just to make my point)

He's lyrically talented, but that first album wasn't up to snuff. Contracted words mean something different from the word sequence contracted. Has rhyming value and meaning, but nobody can tell me the meaning. Hello?
Oh my god, we really going in circles..i told you that his first album wasnt his best..that he showed he had talents..but still had to grow..is that so hard to understand?? Look you can start playing the piano and it is obvious you got talents, but you still have to practice to get to the level that you are really good..it was like that with his first album..he showed he had talent but often used to put words together that really didnt make sense together..but his rhyming skills grew and his lyrics got great meanings..i will show you a few examples later (see my next post)..
So about the margot kidder line, i really dont know what he means..i told you that he wasnt at his best in that time..sometimes what he did was just put words together, which didnt really make sense..i dont really like his work from the absolute beginning, i mean i realise it is not his best..and i wont say it is either..

Would you rather I lie and misrepresent fans? On the one hand, you're upset because I haven't listened to--experienced--the whole albums the way you want, and on the other hand, I don't see that it matters since you wish to replace my observations and experiences with fluff.’
Sure you got all these experiences with groupie girls wanting to fuck eminem..but the thing is you dont want to open your eyes to other fans who are not like that..i am not like that..but still you keep clinging to that image of his fans, while there is someone right here (HELLO RIGHT HERE!!) that is not like that image you have of his fans..so everyone who doesnt fit in that stereotype you have of his fans, are well?? What are we really? Not intelligent? Stupid?? Or secretly we are all lying and we do want to fuck eminem?? I said i know there are female fans who only like eminem because he’s hot..i never said your experiences didnt happen or are ridiculous, because i know there are girls like that ( look at what i said (what you quoted): so your stereotyping of eminem female fans doesnt fit to all female fans, maybe some are like that, but every artist has a couple of fans like that, they surely arent ALL like that). If you are saying they are ALL like that then it is stereotyping, thats just what the word means..so i would like to know if you think that all the female fans are like that?? Or only a part? if you dont think they are ALL like that, then its fine by me and i will get of your case about the stereotyping...really even very talented bands or groups or singers have groupie girls like that, it doesnt say anything about the talent of the person..

I'm glad someone brought this up.

• The lesbian is generally safe from desiring a man like Marshall
•_Would Marshall object to having homosexual intercourse? What about a threesome with two girls? (Social double-standard, you know; one of the reviewers pointed out that the new album deals with social double-standards, so why not?)
Its very funny you turn this around to an argumentation out of eminems view(threesome), while we were talking about the lesbian girls view (not feeling offended)..this girl is pro homosexuality of course…thinking guys have the right to love guys and girls have the right to love girls..she is not offended by his lyrics and doesnt see eminem as homophobic, but well that she thinks this doesnt mean anything because eminem would prefer a threesome (???). that is a strange argumentation..
(homophobic by the way means afraid of all people that sleeps with someone of the same sex (so girls and guys),

Another thing that i see is that you say: 'would marshall object to having homosexual intercourse??' I would like to know what you mean by this, because to me it seems like your argumentation goes like this: marshall objects having homosexual intercourse..this makes him homophobic (??) Or what you mean exactly here?? Because the argumentation makes no sense..

Lets drag up our old quotes where this all started with:
Me: 'really the funny thing is actually that i got a gay friend and that person likes eminems music and doesnt feel offended and im a woman and i dont feel offended by his music either'

Tiassa: ‘I'm aware of the phenomenon. But the consistency with which the women I know who like Eminem like him because they think he's cute and it doesn't matter what he says (so much for the artistic vision) and with which the gay men I know who appreciate Eminem want to f@ck him, I'm not sure the phenomenon really speaks to Marshall's benefit.’

Ok let me show you what i think you are saying in steps, you can correct me if im wrong:
1. eminem is a misogynist, hates all women and is degrading to them..
2. women think eminem is cute and therefore it doesnt matter what he says
3. women dont mind eminem being a misogynist, because eminem is cute
you can take this argumentation even further:
4. women dont mind guys being misogynists, if they are cute

now about gays:
1. eminem is homophobic
2. gay guys want to fuck eminem, therefore dont feel offended
3. gay guys dont mind eminem being a homophobic, because all they want is to fuck him
taking this argumentation further:
4. gays dont mind someone being homophobic, if the person is fuckable to the gay person

uhmm doesnt make much sense does it?? you can clearify this if you want..because this really sounds ridiculous to me..

Frankly, no. Respond to the apparent libel printed in the St. Augustine Record and we'll see.
oh well you’re not going to be the one that have to decide to hire me anyways, so see if i care:D

Perhaps you missed the point. If I use words like "faggot" and "homo" as insults, it's a little like calling a guy a woman to insult him. Being a faggot or a homo or a woman is intended to be a derogatory state.
No i didnt miss the point, i just pointed out that it is what many people use, so you cant put this all on eminem..even you used the word ‘gay’ to say that 'the song without me' sounded ‘homosexual’ and so you used it in a derogatory state..well that just only shows how it grown into society to say things like that..

Nope. I was pointing out that Eminem had an easier route for him. Most bands don't have a Doctor Dre on their side. It's easier, incidentally, to get your "style" through the record-company grinder if it's commercially viable. As with EMI/Capital Group and the Floater story. The record company didn't believe that you or the next fan, or even I who followed this band knew what we liked. They wanted to sign a band that people liked, and then form the band into something it isn't because commercial viability is more important at that level than artistic integrity. If I accept into consideration your implication that Eminem did not "give up his style", we can see that it is commercially viable, a state of being that is separate from "good" or "having artistic integrity". After all, Tiffany, Christina Aguilera, and Wreckx 'n' Effects were all popular. In fact, the latter toned down their single for commercial success, and remade the video. What's that? A rap outfit after sales and not artistic integrity? But WnE are beside the point, technically. Floater recorded once with Drew Canulette of Dogfish Mobile, who also recorded for Soundgarden. If we were to draw a parallel story, then, and say that Rob, being a strong vocalist, conceptualist, and songwriter, was "taken under the wing" of his Dogfish connection, that is, taken under the wing of Chris Cornell, and walked through A&M records, Floater, too, could have their albums promoted to the legions of fans just awaiting the next proclamation of who's cool enough listen to.

The music is more important to them. It's why I buy their albums and go to their shows. They know they'll do fine without the major-league record industry. In the meantime, they're progressing in leaps and bounds, far outshining their major-label cousins (e.g. System of a Down once opened for Floater).

Point being, you cannot convince me that Eminem's career path is the same as "just any other" musician of the quality some allege Eminem to be.‘
__

Oh yea eminem was really out of his mind, to sign a record deal with a very respected rapper and producer in the rap business, and take his big chance when it was in front of him without even having to change his style around and the record company letting him be himself..yea what was he thinking?? He must not care about the music or hiphop at all!! This totally shows he doesnt have any quality!! (hint hint: im being sarcastic). and i was not trying to convince you that eminems career path was harder than anyone elses..me and static76 only have pointed out for you that eminem was respected in the underground scene for years before dr. dre signed him..

I find it even more interesting that my question about the validity of Eminem's lyrical genius is answered by the notion that he's not a lyrical genius
I never said that, dont know how you got that idea..



to Christ Crusher, you made me sick with that picture..you are fucked in the head you know that..go do everyone a favour and jump of a high building please..


to static76: to bad that you dont want to post in this thread anymore (although i see tiassa keeps dragging you back:p), but it was nice to have this discussion with you, and it was nice to read your posts, especially because we agreed with eachother most of the time :D ;)

ok an example of eminems song that he does got talents:

the song the way i am, from the album marshall mathers lp:

I sit back with this pack of Zig Zags and this bag
of this weed it gives me the shit needed to be
the most meanest MC on this -- on this Earth
And since birth I've been cursed with this curse to just curse
And just blurt this berserk and bizarre shit that works
And it sells and it helps in itself to relieve all this tension dispensin these sentences
Gettin this stress that's been eatin me recently off of this chest and I rest again peacefully (peacefully)..
but at least have the decency in you
to leave me alone, when you freaks see me out in the streets when I'm eatin or feedin my daughter
to not come and speak to me (speak to me)..
I don't know you and no, I don't owe you a mo-therfuck-in thing
I'm not Mr. N'Sync, I'm not what your friends think I'm not Mr. Friendly,
I can be a prick if you tempt me my tank is on empty (is on empty)..
No patience is in me and if you offend me I'm liftin you 10 feet (liftin you 10 feet)..
in the air I don't care who is there and who saw me destroy you
Go call you a lawyer, file you a lawsuit I'll smile in the courtroom and buy you a wardrobe I'm tired of all you (of all you).. I don't mean to be mean but that's all I can be its just me

Chorus:
And I am, whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
In the paper, the news everyday I am
Radio won't even play my jam
Cause I am, whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
In the paper, the news everyday I am
I don't know it's just the way I am

Sometimes I just feel like my father, I hate to be bothered
with all of this nonsense it's constant
And, "Oh, it's his lyrical content -
- the song 'Guilty Conscience' has gotten such rotten responses"
And all of this controversy circles me
and it seems like the media immediately
points a finger at me (finger at me)..
So I point one back at 'em, but not the index or pinkie
or the ring or the thumb, it's the one you put up
when you don't give a fuck, when you won't just put up
with the bullshit they pull, cause they full of shit too
When a dude's gettin bullied and shoots up his school
and they blame it on Marilyn (on Marilyn).. and the heroin
Where were the parents at? And look where it's at
Middle America, now it's a tragedy
Now it's so sad to see, an upper class ci-ty
havin this happenin (this happenin)..
then attack Eminem cause I rap this way (rap this way)..
But I'm glad cause they feed me the fuel that I need for the fire
to burn and it's burnin and I have returned

chorus

I'm so sick and tired of bein admired
that I wish that I would just die or get fired
and dropped from my label and stop with the fables
I'm not gonna be able to top on "My Name is.."
And pigeon-holed into some pop-py sensation
to cop me rotation at rock'n'roll stations
And I just do not got the patience (got the patience)..
to deal with these cocky caucasians who think
I'm some wigger who just tries to be black cause I talk
with an accent, and grab on my balls, so they always keep askin
the same fuckin questions (fuckin questions)..
What school did I go to, what hood I grew up in
The why, the who what when, the where, and the how
'til I'm grabbin my hair and I'm tearin it out
cause they drivin me crazy (drivin me crazy).. I can't take it
I'm racin, I'm pacin, I stand and I sit
And I'm thankful for ev-ery fan that I get
But I can't take a shit, in the bathroom
without someone standin by it
No I won't sign your autograph
You can call me an asshole I'm glad

this song has meaning too..you see he's not rhyming just to rhyme and just putting some words together..it makes a lot of sense, and i think it is a great song..not only for the lyrical skill he shows in it, and for the flow he has when he raps this song..also for what he is actually singing about..(mentioning the school shootings, people bothering him on the streets, him getting nuts of the critics and questions and so on)

now lets look of the vanilla ice song- ice ice baby, because i remember you mentioned him before and compared him to eminem:
Ice Ice Baby, Ice Ice Baby
All right stop, Collaborate and listen
Ice is back with my brand new invention
Something grabs a hold of me tightly
Then I flow like a harpoon daily and nightly
Will it ever stop? Yo -- I don't know
Turn off the lights and I'll glow
To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal
Light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.

Dance, Bum rush the speaker that booms
I'm killing your brain like a poisonous mushroom
Deadly, when I play a dope melody
Anything less than the best is a felony
Love it or leave it, You better gain way
You better hit bull's eye, The kid don't play
If there was a problem, Yo, I'll solve it
Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it

Ice Ice Baby Vanilla, Ice Ice Baby Vanilla
Ice Ice Baby Vanilla, Ice Ice Baby Vanilla

Now that the party is jumping
With the bass kicked in, the Vegas are pumpin'
Quick to the point, to the point no faking
I'm cooking MCs like a pound of bacon
Burning them if they're not quick and nimble
I go crazy when I hear a cymbal
And a hi hat with a souped up tempo
I'm on a roll and it's time to go solo
Rollin' in my 5.0
With my ragtop down so my hair can blow
The girlies on standby, Waving just to say Hi
Did you stop? No -- I just drove by
Kept on pursuing to the next stop
I busted a left and I'm heading to the next block
That block was dead

Yo -- so I continued to A1A Beachfront Ave.
Girls were hot wearing less than bikinis
Rockman lovers driving Lamborghinis
Jealous 'cause I'm out geting mine
Shay with a gauge and Vanilla with a nine
Reading for the chumps on the wall
The chumps acting ill because they're so full of "Eight Ball"
Gunshots ranged out like a bell
I grabbed my nine -- All I heard were shells
Falling on the concrete real fast
Jumped in my car, slammed on the gas
Bumper to bumper the avenue's packed
I'm trying to get away before the jackers jack
Police on the scene, You know what I mean
They passed me up, confronted all the dope fiends
If there was a problem, Yo, I'll solve it
Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it

Ice Ice Baby Vanilla, Ice Ice Baby Vanilla
Ice Ice Baby Vanilla, Ice Ice Baby Vanilla

Take heed, 'cause I'm a lyrical poet
Miami's on the scene just in case you didn't know it
My town, that created all the bass sound
Enough to shake and kick holes in the ground
'Cause my style's like a chemical spill
Feasible rhymes that you can vision and feel
Conducted and formed, This is a hell of a concept
We make it hype and you want to step with this
Shay plays on the fade, slice like a ninja
Cut like a razor blade so fast, Other DJs say, "damn"
If my rhyme was a drug, I'd sell it by the gram
Keep my composure when it's time to get loose
Magnetized by the mic while I kick my juice
If there was a problem, Yo -- I'll solve it!
Check out the hook while Deshay revolves it.

Ice Ice Baby Vanilla, Ice Ice Baby Vanilla
Ice Ice Baby Vanilla, Ice Ice Baby Vanilla

hmmm what shall i say..what you see with him that its most of the time a rap like this: AABBCC; meaning that only the end of the last word of the sentence rhymes with the last word of the next sentence, and so on..there are hardly any rhyms in the sentences itself..it just doesnt flow well..and what the hell he rapped about i really dont care one bit..i fell asleep after 3 sentences..toooo boring..it kinda reminds me of songs from britney spears with the rhyming technique:

(song: you drive me crazy)
Baby, I'm so into you
You've got that something, what can I do
Baby, you spin me around, oh
The earth is movin, but I can't feel the ground
Everytime you look at me
My heart is jumpin, it's easy to see
Loving you means so much more
More than anything I ever felt before

same rhyming basic: AABBCC..no rhyming skills whatsoever..every three year old can make a rhyme like that..therefore i think eminem is really different than this, he got rhyming skills and i happen not to fall asleep after the first 3 words...if you need more examples i be glad to give them to you..

This is actually nonsense..eminem never made a serious song about his mother Ah, so his mother has little to do with his career. Okay. Didn't someone point out Munchausen Syndrome to me a little while ago? What is it that you want me to go through and drag up your posts and Static's just to wonder why you sound so contradictory.This is actually nonsense..eminem never made a serious song about his mother before..he always used to diss her in a funny way, and would just mention her in like only one sentenceWell, why is momma part of the deflection of accusations of misogyny?so what the reviewer said is nonsense to me..That's official. It looks like the discussion is over and settled. :rolleyes: Well yes the critic took eminem a bit to seriously here..eminem explained in several interviews that he wrote the song ‘say goodbye to hollywood’ in a time that he was going through a lot of shit.Well, it's worth pointing out that "grunge" was criticized for its self-indulgent lyrics; yet very few people who were actually paying attention didn't wonder about the lyrics of In Utero. Retrospect tells us we should have taken it more seriously. I would hope the Eminem flap doesn't go so far as to compel him to stick a shotgun in his mouth.Well this sentence shows a lot to me.What about all the other sentences in the review?(im sure tiassa dont know because tiassa is just like the reviewer is). Actually, silly, if I don't know it's because I'm not you. :rolleyes: it tells me that the reviewer didnt even hear the eminem show..probably just glanced through the lyrics..do you know how i know this? Because eminem doesnt rap that sentence in ‘when the music stops’, that part of the lyrics is from a member of d12, kon artis, and not by eminem..Are you kidding? It was a year before I noticed that the lyrics inside Streets: A Rock Opera (by Savatage) didn't match the actual songs. In other words, reviewers listen to albums only a couple of times and, sometimes, they go through the liner notes simultaneously. However, after listening to the album once or twice, the reviewer probably turned to the lyrics.

What you're implying is a serious breach of the social contract of being a critic of anything. The reviewer's name is Ian Watson, and you can click on his name at the bottom of the review and e-mail him. I suggest you do, and you ask him to please listen to the albums before he reviews them. If you state your problem clearly enough, he might even respond. He probably got a flood of e-mail from people who didn't like his review, but an honest inquiry regarding the credibility of his methods would deserve an answer.Now i am sure that he didnt listen..that wasnt eminem putting the gun to his head..that was another member of d12Then e-mail him. It appears he's transgressed legal boundaries here. I mean, the amount you charge people with doing illegal things to Eminem is a little bit amusing.This song is about the groupie girls that hang around eminem and want him to sleep with them, or they only want to be with him because he’s famous, or only want his money…And? I mean, have you ever heard the song "Diamond Girls" by Neil Diamond?I think this is nonsense, all the albums of eminem are different…they arent the same at all..i wonder if he even listened to the slim shady lp or marshall mathers lp, knowing of what he said about the eminem show i think not..Eminem does not exist in a vacuum, as is obvious by the flak and hubbub his histrionics raised. He is not particularly groundbreaking either within the rap form, or even between his albums. Critics also consider those kinds of factors. For instance, I know that some people like the band Godsmack. Whatever. Their sound isn't new. What they're doing isn't new. Hell, their name isn't even new. People can talk all they want about how much they like it, but I prefer the sound the first time I know that praise of Eminem is the only acceptable outcome for you, so why should it matter that you think it's nonsense that a critic acknowledged Eminem's pop-culture sales power? Or is "pop-culture" success bad?Well no its not over one year later…moby said some stuff about eminem like a month ago, in august, about hailie growing up and dating an abusive guy and it being eminem’s fault, because he says this is ok..so not a year ago.Cool enough. Would you be so kind, though, as to point me to the random press conference he held to bash Eminem, or would this be one of those things he said in response to someone's (like a music or pop-culture journalist) question? Since you're the expert here, I'll let you tell me.If this is true..that eminem chased moby around and said that..then i think he went way to far..and i do consider that as a treat of violence..BUT i really dont know if i should believe this. i tell you why..it says one source..one witness…come on!! the whole vma was packed with people!!! And just one witness seen this??That's dumb if only for the fact of a Bush story from a while ago. It seems that Mr. Bush attended a concert in his honor, early in his term. The performer walked out, sat down at the piano. George Bush waved. The performer did not acknowledge him. Bush continued to wave. Someone leaned over and whispered in his ear, "Mr. President, that's Stevie Wonder. He's blind. He cannot see you."

In the article I read, one witness was quoted as saying, "I knew I shouldn't laugh but it was funny."

Should we conclude, as such, that only one person aside from the whispering advisor saw Mr. Bush waving at Stevie Wonder?

For instance, how many witnesses should the reporter have stopped to ask? How many gave coherent responses? Should the whole article just be comprised of a bunch of quotes from witnesses?Thats just to ridiculous..then it must have happened in the commercial breakWell, Conan O'Brien did do us the favor of replaying the bit with the comic dog. It doesn't speak well for Eminem's behavior or his intelligence. Maybe he was just frustrated by thoughts of his mother or something. Because when Conan said Eminem looked like he was scared of a hand puppet, I figured it would be your usual late-night sewing of file segments together to make a pseudo-drama. The kind of hack filler late-night is infamous for. But no, they showed the actual tape and yes, Eminem looked sketchy. I would imply cocaine, but I've seen the symptoms enough without it. But yeah, he looked scared of a comic dog and the same guy identified earlier in this topic as a member of D12 played bodyguard and started harassing the puppet. That was when they called for Christina Aguilera.NOTHING shows that something just happened thereAward shows are not documentaries. Their job is to fit into the allotted airspace, to look dignified, and nobody ever sees the number of people flat running back and forth around the room to make things happen. Since I never see that happening on the air, should I presume that the last-minute rushes of live production are nonexistent?that people are stunned and shocked by what they just saw happeningJudging by the audience reaction to the comic dog incident, I think they thought it was all part of the show.BUT if it is true (i rather would hear it from the source mtv itself, or from a lot of artists being at the vma’s who saw it and can confirm it), then i think eminem really went WAY to far..Fair enough. I'll never stop someone from holding MTV as a journalistic standard.

I'll laugh about it all day, but I won't stop you.first of all, you downloaded the wrong song, to really hear what eminem is about. the one static76 said are indeed very good songs. Fair enough. If I follow your citations, I should be able to respond with one of my own:I see Static mentioning "Stan" on 9.4, your mention of "White America" on 9.5, repeated mentions of Eminem's lyrical response to Moby without citation (Static), a repeat of "Stan" from Static on 9.6, Mentions of "Stan", "Cleaning out My Closet" and "I Remember" on 9.9, and a couple of lyrical expositions scattered in there.

Having just reviewed the whole of the topic yet again, I come up with two original mentions: "Stan" and "Cleaning out My Closet". At no time were either song held up to be the songs I should listen to any more than the issues people took with my lyrical examinations proclaimed such a song.All I wanted was for someone to say, "This is the best example." After all, for every problem I find, someone can say, "Well, you should look at better songs." Which I find interesting in the context of the lyrical issue, but I see you're at it again shortly, so I'll get to it there instead.No you obviously dont get me: i said: 'i actually listened to his albums and you didnt and still you think you owe the absolute truth and know everything about his songs and lyrics.'You're so right, Justme. All those times I heard Eminem in bars or in friends' cars or on the radio when I happened to be near it, or when I sat through it on MTV ... I wasn't actually paying attention, was I? Come on, you know the answer to this question, I'm sure, since you seem to think you know everything in the Universe. I mean, in addition to the appearance of naïvete about the recording industry itself and pop culture, you seem to have too high an expectation of newspaper journalism. (How many witnesses would you have preferred, and how much column space should that have taken in the printed edition? I mean, since you obviously know ...?)I never listened to one song of Alicia Keys..but still I would go on a message board, tell people that she has absolutly no talent at allThe problem with your argument here is that I have heard listened to Eminem's songs before. Or is "listening" that process of lying on my back in my room, playing Eminem on the stereo while staring at the ceiling and wishing I could be as cool as him?that she obviously is a racist because people accused her of this, while I didnt listen to her songs or saw any of her interviews, but if someone says she is, it probably is true, right??Depends on the lyric in question.

Duh. :rolleyes: Because people NEVER gossip or talk out of their ass . . . . Well, some people, like Eminem, make a living from gossip and talking out of their ass.and oh yea people only buy her music because she looks so hell good and all the guys want to fuck herVocalists of her quality are, technically, a dime a dozen if you're a record company. I'd say you're quite correct when you say people like to buy her music because she looks good and guys want to fuck her. I've heard plenty of vocalists I would rather stick in a studio with a production team behind them, but not all of them would look as good in tight, revealing clothes. To the other, as I go from CD site to CD site, I'm finding it hard to get the production credits. Hmmm ... oh, well. I saw mention in fan reviews of songwriting, and I want to make sure her contribution to the songwriting is more than, say, Tiffany's.I cant possibly say those things if i never even heard her musicI won't disagree..well you can say itToo bad I've already heard one of her songs at least and have failed to be impressed by her talent. I just blew your experiment. Sorry 'bout that.but it shows that the points that are being made arent valid, because you didnt research itOh, you're still talking about Marshall.

Um ... just look up a few paragraphs. I won't bother repeating myself.

I will pause to say that you're making it easy for me to hold an essentially untenable line. It doesn't actually matter what Marshall says on his albums until he lets it bleed over into real life. But when the best you can do is charge people with violating the law and therefore violating Eminem, and set argumentative conditions such as the present point about Ms. Keys that have no bearing on the present discussions by proxy of their necessary boundaries, you make it very easy to be critical of the results of pop culture.

Hint ... when the PMRC began criticizing music in the 1980s--in response to Purple Rain by Prince--the fans responded first with an overwhelming wave of profanity and hostility. And then they figured it out, and tried to play ball. By the time we got to Anthrax's profane explosion all over Tipper Gore, the bands had "played ball" long enough. I'll worry about the "persecution" of poor Eminem when he gets hauled before a Senate subcommittee the way the headbangers of the 1980s were. Things generally better, though, if the kids' responses to their concerned parents were something a little more appropriate than F--k off! Their profane responses suggested a lack of education and civility, the two worries of the censors. For me, who worries about the seeming numbskullery of the pop-culture catchall crowd, the lack of cohesion marking your approach to this topic suggests a lack of something. Or perhaps an abundance of something, as I have stated before that I find your perspectives on the institutions (e.g. pop culture, journalism) rather naïve.you are not taking the time out to listen to someone seriously, but still you think you know everything and you think you can tell people that did listen to it are wrong because they are not intelligentI don't judge fans solely by the music they choose. Rather, I measure their expressions of it. My judgment of the fans is based solely in observation and experience.

I'm also reminded of an occasion in which Riki Rachtman of MTV infamy interviewed Soundgarden on "Headbanger's Ball" during the Superunknown days. Rachtman asked, "Do you notice a difference in the fans you saw before as compared to the fans you see now?" Cornell stumbled, trying to be polite. Thayill, already a couple sheets to the wind, muttered something to the effect of "credit-card carrying jock poseurs". Cameron smiled. Shepherd fell out of his chair laughing.

Some bands know.

And there's an example of artistic response, in fact. Soundgarden. Now, it would have been easy enough to cuss MTV out lyrically for banning the video for "Jesus Christ Pose" after one airing. However, Soundgarden one-upped that kind of childish revenge. On the release of Superunknown, Soundgarden released their first video after JCP--"Spoonman". The entire video consisted of footage of Artis playing his spoons and still shots of the band from former promo shoots. It made a great statement: Why make a good video if you're not going to play it?

(You'll notice that another video from the album, "Fell on Black Days" is an anti-video as well, featuring concert footage and short-film footage shot by bassist Ben Shepherd's brother Henry.) And then you'll notice that Soundgarden, having made their statement, went on to make more participatory, artistic videos again: "Black Hole Sun", "Burden in My Hand", and "Blow Up the Outside World".)

Artistic responses should be subtle. That story just occurred to me.im just saying listen to it seriously, and then come back and tell me what you think and i might listen to you seriously and think your points are valid because you researched what you are talking about..What constitutes seriously? The presumption of quality before listening?(just a little note with this: no no one ever said alicia keys is a racist, but it was just to make my point)And it's a wonderful point aside from being irrelevant and non-applicable.Oh my god, we really going in circles..i told you that his first album wasnt his best..that he showed he had talents..but still had to grow..is that so hard to understand??No it's not, but it's also a point that tarnishes the idea of his lyrical genius, which is necessary to justify the idea that his continued success is not pop-culture mindlessness. Is that so hard to understand?Look you can start playing the piano and it is obvious you got talents, but you still have to practice to get to the level that you are really good..it was like that with his first albumWell I would hope not to record an album in the guise of a professional pianist until I could warrant the label.

Is that particularly difficult to comprehend in any way? In fact, I should play "Chopsticks" as a background track over a simple beat extracted from a Casio keyboard and then talk bad about all the people who have pissed me off. It might sell, but I'm not about to call myself a musician if I do that.he showed he had talent but often used to put words together that really didnt make sense togetherIn other words, he's like other rappers who "show talent".So about the margot kidder line, i really dont know what he means..i told you that he wasnt at his best in that time..sometimes what he did was just put words together, which didnt really make sense..i dont really like his work from the absolute beginning, i mean i realise it is not his best..and i wont say it is either..Look, I have plenty of bands on my shelf that, by the standards I describe in this topic, I should not. But therein lies part of the point. It doesn't matter that we own or listen to such performances. I just find it very dishonest to inflate the performance into something it isn't.

A short list of those, not all-inclusive:

• Live: Throwing Copper--the whole album smacks of pop-delerium. While I like the premise, for instance, of "Lightning Crashes", there's no denying it's a whiny song bent to the faux-poetic pop-culture evident in its day. There are only two standout tracks on that album, and one of them is the "bonus" track.

• Flotsam and Jetsam: When the Storm Comes Down--the first F&J album after Newstead left for Metallica. Really only one standout track by today's terms, and that just barely. It's an affinity.

• Scott Thomas Band: California--a strong debut album, but hardly innovative. It suggests songwriting talent, but whether that talent ever blossoms is another question. Not offensive at all to listen to (sonically, I'm not thinking of lyrical-moral offense), but this album won't be forgotten because nobody will ever notice it; I got it for free from a guy handing out promo discs in a coffee shop.Sure you got all these experiences with groupie girls wanting to fuck eminem..but the thing is you dont want to open your eyes to other fans who are not like that..i am not like that..but still you keep clinging to that image of his fans, while there is someone right here (HELLO RIGHT HERE!!) that is not like that image you have of his fans..so everyone who doesnt fit in that stereotype you have of his fans, are well??Well, let's see ... I've seen minimization of an event, redefinition of terms related to that event, assertions of his lyrical talent combined with admissions that his talent isn't as evident in some places as in others ... what am I to think of this topic? There is very little here in Eminem's defense/praise that strikes me as distinctive. That you choose to represent yourself in the manner you do is the primary factor in my assessment of, say, you individually. That it doesn't seem to reach any higher than the usual rap-related discussions is hardly my problem. Rather, I think it's yours.

Nonetheless, none of your tirade changes the fact that it seems like you're asking me to lie and say yes, I have witnessed a condition that, in reality, I have not.

I used to say of Christians that the "real" Christians (as opposed to the political activist charlatans like Wildmon, Mabon, and their flocks) are either nonexistent or smart enough to keep their mouths shut. Watching Christian evangelists go forward in the world is sometimes a very bizarre notion, and when you're left wondering how it is that such a diverse religion exhibits such narrow and restrictive conditions, the answer is because the "other" Christians are leaving the fight to them. They're not speaking up because the debate hasn't reached a level where they can contribute. It is problematic, but it's the best answer as to why such a diverse religious paradigm as Christianity is so ill-represented in the United States.

Likewise, if we distinguish "intelligent" Eminem fans, I'm wondering where that intelligent discussion is. I've known incredibly intelligent people, for instance, who because of their religion viewed the world from a horribly moronic point of view. (One of them is in town this weekend campaigning for the surrender of my unborn child to Chrisitanity, incidentally, but that's technically beside the point.) And I've also known very quiet Christians who were only moved to speak when the discussion transcended balbutive because they felt any contribution before that point would be detrimental. In the end, the direct comparison says that I would like to see more intelligent discussion out of Eminem's fans. Defending threats of violence, minimization, spotty calls about lyrical quality, and rampant accusations of torts against Eminem are not selling me on the central question of the quality of the pop-culture product he presents.really even very talented bands or groups or singers have groupie girls like that, it doesnt say anything about the talent of the person..And some of them fight this instead of depending on it. Think of the Soundgarden tale I related above, about "Headbanger's Ball". On the one hand, it was risky to criticize fans like that. To the other, Soundgarden did not appear to really want those people at their shows ruining the experience for others. Furthermore, it is doubtful that the credit-card carrying jocks Thayill was so critical of realized they were being criticized.

And, again, I'm left to think of Neil Diamond. "Diamond girls, is there anybody there at the end of the night?"she is not offended by his lyrics and doesnt see eminem as homophobic, but well that she thinks this doesnt mean anything because eminem would prefer a threesome (???). that is a strange argumentationWill you try something for me? You can post the results here, or in a PM, or even email me.

For the next several occasions that you see this friend, if you have cause to speak ill of anyone, take Marshall's model. As you see people that you might criticize--That was dumb, or What's their f--king problem, and so on--refer to them by different words. Call all the women you disapprove of dykes and all the men you disapprove of faggots. Even the ones hitting on you. Do it on several consecutive occasions and if she says nothing to you about it, I'll stop worrying about it. Did someone cut you off in traffic? Say, "Fucking stupid dyke." And the woman who stepped into the street against the light: "Serve the dyke bitch right if she gets her ass mowed." And the guy making inappropriate passes at you? "What a f--king homo."(homophobic by the way means afraid of all people that sleeps with someone of the same sex (so girls and guys),Wow, so those guys who will hate you because you're a gay man but who love watching lesbian intercourse aren't homophobic? Cool!

:rolleyes: Another thing that i see is that you say: 'would marshall object to having homosexual intercourse??' I would like to know what you mean by this, because to me it seems like your argumentation goes like this: marshall objects having homosexual intercourse..this makes him homophobic (??) Or what you mean exactly here?? Because the argumentation makes no sense..I think at the time I was referring to lyrics about anal sex. You see, I find it interesting that he talks about homo faggot pussies but doesn't say much about dykes. I wonder why he hasn't turned a lesbian into a general negative word. After all, bitch no longer means woman, homo no longer implies a gay man, and faggot no longer has anything to do with a stick, a cigarette, or a gay man.

Academy English, vol. 1, by Marshall Mathers III?

I just love the premise, though: I don't want to make sense but you all are stupid for not understanding when I don't want to speak to you coherently and want to make up words and tell you what they mean.Ok let me show you what i think you are saying in steps, you can correct me if im wrong:
1. eminem is a misogynist, hates all women and is degrading to them..
2. women think eminem is cute and therefore it doesnt matter what he says
3. women dont mind eminem being a misogynist, because eminem is cute
you can take this argumentation even further:
4. women dont mind guys being misogynists, if they are cute1. All women is a stretch. People claim he has affection for his daughter. Time will tell.

2. This is my common experience. Either that or the women don't like Eminem at all and don't make a point of listening to his product.

3. Again, this is my common experience. And, again, the alternative is the women I know who don't listen to Eminem at all.

(Of that crowd of women who don't make a point of listening to Eminem, I must say that several of them have said that the "offensive" content wouldn't matter if was presented with more artistic vision. In that case, I believe the implication to be that it wouldn't matter what Eminem said if he wasn't such a self-centered f--k about it.)

4. Again, this is my common experience. The flip-side is, again, those women who don't listen to Eminem.
1. eminem is homophobic
2. gay guys want to fuck eminem, therefore dont feel offended
3. gay guys dont mind eminem being a homophobic, because all they want is to fuck him
taking this argumentation further:
4. gays dont mind someone being homophobic, if the person is fuckable to the gay person1. If Eminem is just making up words, why "faggot" and "homo"? Why not "rabbit" and "balloon"? Because his "wimpy" definition is based in the insult of the word "faggot" being a derogatory word for homosexuals. When you call a man a faggot as a general insult, you are calling him homosexual and implying that there is something wrong with it. If Eminem doesn't want people pointing at the insults he uses, he ought to find better insults. See point 4 below.

2. Threefold: (A) many don't listen to him, (B) those who do want to fuck him generally say so in a mildly-sarcastic fashion--they think Eminem would enjoy it; (C) when gay men go out dancing, many of them get horny--DJ's in gay clubs do occasionally play Eminem specifically for the political statement of getting a bunch of homo faggots horny. Eminem may find the conditions of homo faggots something to speak disapprovingly of and use as the basis for insult, but he is contributing to their behavior.

3. Actually, I've found that the gay men I know do find Eminem bothersome. But they'd rather pervert Eminem's homophobia into something more constructive. They're just a little more easygoing when it comes to what to do about it.

4. My experience is twofold. The majority of gay men I know don't bother with Eminem because it sucks. Of the controversy, well, I would say that among those men, I have a point: they're tired of hearing people say "faggot" this and "homo" that, constantly putting the words into different contexts. I mean, George Bush must be frustrated with all those women in the UN. And that stupid woman Saddam Hussein needs to be bitch-slapped.

In addition, many gay men I know extend certain sympathies and empathies to Eminem. The prevailing opinion among gay men I know is that Eminem is, in fact, a severely closeted, neurotically repressed homosexual.uhmm doesnt make much sense does it?? you can clearify this if you want..because this really sounds ridiculous to me..Well, when you present idiot-simple schema such as these, it's not supposed to make much sense.oh well you’re not going to be the one that have to decide to hire me anyways, so see if i careThe world needs another lawyer like Kurt Cobain needs another shotgun. :D No i didnt miss the point, i just pointed out that it is what many people use, so you cant put this all on eminem..even you used the word ‘gay’ to say that 'the song without me' sounded ‘homosexual’ and so you used it in a derogatory state..well that just only shows how it grown into society to say things like that..Actually, I explained exactly what I meant, which is more than we can say for either you or Eminem:

• But it sounds ferociously homosexual, diva-arrogant ... it really reminds me of a trannie pageant.

•_I think the whole atmosphere was dragged down by a pompous, queenie primadonna yelling all over the place.

• I don't like using gay as a dig, but I don't think the word can be applied in any complimentary sense

•_I mean, even if I was legitimately impressed by the quality of the primadonna bit, I don't think Marshall would appreciate it.

Do I really need to explain that? Here, I will. It can be summed up rather simply:

• While I have no problem with primadonna queens, nor with "gay" sounding performances, I really don't think that such a compliment would settle well with Marshall.

I mean, Without Me is screaming balzac queer.

Big deal. From there, it's all up to perception.

Obviously, you seem to find gay a disparaging way to qualify the sound of the single. Why? What's wrong with it sounding gay? Other than the fact that I don't think that's what Marshall was after?Oh yea eminem was really out of his mind, to sign a record deal with a very respected rapper and producer in the rap business, and take his big chance when it was in front of him without even having to change his style around and the record company letting him be himself..yea what was he thinking??Why go introducing this kind of issue now? After all, the implication that he's out of his mind comes from his repeated excusing of himself because of past abuses and troubles while continuing to behave like a moron. But I hadn't brought it up because it didn't seem that important.and i was not trying to convince you that eminems career path was harder than anyone elsesWell stop trying to tell me he made it to the top wholly on his own merit. He didn't. Easy enough?me and static76 only have pointed out for you that eminem was respected in the underground scene for years before dr. dre signed him.And I don't see how that changes anything. There are, as I have said, many bands who don't have someone like Dre stiffarming executives for them. Like I said, if Cornell had taken, say, Rob Wynia under his wing in the same way, Floater would rule the pop charts.I never said that, dont know how you got that idea..Well I keep asking about his lyrical quality. And when I raise the Margot Kidder issue, the answer is, "Well, that album wasn't very good." Some lyrical genius.although i see tiassa keeps dragging you backSorry, kiddo. The only egotism you can blame on me is my own. :p

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

On the whole, it's self-indulgent tripe. I don't see anything particularly bothersome in there except for the fact that it's on par with Papa Roach's self-indulgent tripe. However, in the tradition of rap, it's not even