So "God" doesn't hate sinners, huh??...check this out!

Lori

01-30-00, 03:54 PM

Flash,

I am so psyched! This is a great topic to talk about. One that is profoundly misunderstood and misinterpreted in every sense! And the response has been awesome; I'm not sure what you mean in regards to negativity at all Bowser??

Here's my two cents...

Flash, this is a perfect example of what I mean when I say that you DO NOT seek to understand the faith at all. It seems to me that when seeking understanding, you tend to gravitate to the same destructive, blind, sinful rhetoric that keeps organizations like the church above in business. Keeps the KKK in business, the Nazi wanna be skinheads, the abortion clinic bombers, David Koresh, what about the idiots that bombed the Federal Bldg, or maybe it just keeps the ministers in Mercedes Benz? But whatever the case, YOU ARE MISSING THE ENTIRE POINT. I pray to God that you are beginning to see this, and others as well. None of this behavior is ever condoned or taught in the Bible. IT IS DENOUNCED AS SIN! You are looking to those who do not understand the faith to teach it to you? Why? If you needed a math tutor, would you seek out instruction from someone who got straight F's in math???? Why?

This all leads to what TS said about having a personal relationship with Jesus. You can't get your faith THROUGH another human being, I don't care if it's a parent, a minister, a priest, or the Pope himself. It's all up to you and your heart. Blind faith leads to misunderstanding and self-perpetuates. True faith is accomplished and perpetuated THROUGH understanding the truth. Certainly you see what is wrong with the position of the baptist organization yes? Well see? You're listening to Jesus and you don't even realize it! :) And of course, He's right. Humans are incredibly tempted and fallable; Christians as much as non, so don't rely on any other human being to foster or determine your relationship with Christ. It's just not possible, not only detrimental to try. It's up to you. Everyone needs to hear the Word of God, and there are preachers out there and churches out there that do a great job of accomplishing that purpose. There ARE Holy-Spirit led Christians out there who DO understand many lessons that are taught in the Bible. But yes, there are some that are not so enlightened and do not understand and yes, the problem is certainly within their intentions in some way. But just wollow in the truth always, and thereby realizing that who is the parent, preacher, the minister, the Pope? A man. A human being just like you. Just realize that. Jesus is the ONLY one who is worthy; so look to Him always in seeking understanding.

Flash, your answer certainly lies here, in the post that SEARCHER MADE! YEA SEARCHER!!! SEARCHER'S PREACHING THE WORD OF GOD!!! GO JESUS GO! LOL! See what I mean? There is ALWAYS an answer.

We've also talked about this topic in-depth before, and you know that I agree with what TS is saying. I for the life of me do not understand a rejection of ANYONE FOR ANY REASON from seeking salvation in Jesus Christ. There is NO reason given in the Bible ANYWHERE, and not only that, but the message of the Bible is the EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT. This is the message in the Bible...WE ARE ALL SINNERS, AND NONE ARE WORTHY TO JUDGE THE OTHER. So being one who proposes the use of logic, I'm confused by the above group's stance in a profound sense. Well ok, I'm not really confused, I'm smarter than that and so are you I'd bet. You know what they want to believe right? That another man's sin is somehow greater than is own, thereby making him a "better" man in God's eyes, and thereby making him worthy to judge that other man. Well, you just try finding THAT message in the Bible anywhere....and good luck.

As far as my opinion about homosexuality goes, I think that the Bible is pretty clear in conveying that the spiritual laws regarding sex all ultimately center around providing the best possible spiritual environment for the natural result of such activity, that being a child. So that would be, IN AN IDEAL SENSE, something like this...a man and a woman (there ya go), pure intentions towards and an eternal covenant with each other and with God, and embracing and respecting the consequence of such a relationship, which is a child, if so determined by whom? By God. So, now take a look around in the world today? How often do you see this type of relationship manifest? Ever? No, never. Some people try harder than others, I guess some get closer to the cigar, but I think it's pretty safe to say that all of us in our endeavors fall short of the mark. Actually, in a very general sense, we've collectively as a society perverted the hell out of it. Why? Greed, laziness, lust, irresponsibility, denial of a God! We couldn't cheapen the act of sex anymore than we have already could we? I mean, it's bought and sold, and most people don't even seem to see anything wrong with that? All anyone really cares about anymore is getting off and making money, and if anything gets in the way of that, like a child, well we'll surely find a way around that. Even if it's vacuuming one out of my womb at six weeks, right? Yea, and meanwhile there are couples shelling out $10K a pop to try to grow a baby in a damn test tube, and we've got the human cloning string going out there, "but God, there's just got to be a better way!!!!!!" The whole thing makes me physically sick to my stomach.

So do I think that homosexual sex is a sin? Well, for one, I would almost have to take Mr. Clinton's approach to this one and say firstly, that I don't think what homosexuals do is even considered sex. When I say sex, I mean intercourse. You can't have intercourse if both of the parts are the same right? So really, I view homosexual sex more as "assisted masturbation". Do I think it's sinful? Yea. Do I think masturbation's sinful? Yea. Do I think that the last time I had sex with my husband it was sinful? Yea. Once you get away from the ideal, I guess it's all relative you know? I think that homosexuals are just avoiding the same consequences that we are all trying to avoid, they've just taken a different approach. We use birth control pills, condoms, foam, jellies, abortion if those don't work, and they just avoid having real sex altogether. So what? Is one more wrong than the other? I don't think you'll find that in the Bible anywhere.

Now this is what I really want you to understand, and every one else out there for that matter. You are a sinner like it or not, and so am I, and so is everybody else out there, EXEPT FOR JESUS. You will never, ever, ever, ever stop being a sinner while you are alive on this earth, not if you try hard, not if you learn a lot of stuff, not if you get older than you are now, not if you get saved in Jesus Christ, and not if you get abducted by aliens, and not even if you try to alter yourself genetically to try to rid yourself of it. It's just not going to happen, so give it up. I don't even think it's near possible within a lifetime to even REALIZE the entirety and full blown consequences of one's sin. Hence the importance of obtaining forgiveness from God through Jesus Christ. It's the admission of the fact that you ARE a sinner, and why, and asking God for forgiveness that is important. And yes, if you do this and you pray and you truly LISTEN to Him SPEAK TO YOU, then it is possible to gain true enlightenment into your own life and into the whole universe. This is what's important Flash....YOUR INTENTIONS...not your works, not your acts, but your intentions. The way I see it is, if your intentions are pure, but your acts are sinful, then it is purely an act of misunderstanding and ignorance of the truth of the Lord. In other words, you can't stop sinning if you are not aware that you are sinning. It's like something I heard on the radio and in the paper that just cracked me up not too long ago. Apparently there was some big scientific study that was conducted that concluded that "people who were deemed incompetent, were not aware of their own incompetence, because of their incompetence". ROFLMAO! I'm like duh, how many tax dollars did it take to come to that brilliant conclusion?????? Man!

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is entirely futile to think that you would have to try to stop sinning in order to receive salvation through Jesus Christ. It's quite impossible to accomplish, so you would be wasting valuable time trying. All you can do is seek to understand Him with a humble heart, and pure intentions, and with repentence. That's it. You can do that. Flash, I know you very well, and personally I just wanted you to know that in many ways and regarding many circumstances, your own intentions towards others are much more pure, and selfless, and "Jesus-like" than many Christians I've known of. Does that make sense? Jesus loves YOU, JUST THE WAY YOU ARE. He just needs you to love Him that way too.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

truestory

01-30-00, 04:06 PM

Tab'

Well, the betrayal and arrest of Jesus took place immediately after the agony in the garden when Jesus was praying all night... His followers were all sleeping... Perhaps some people slept naked? I never heard of or "saw" what you claim to be an "obvious insinuation"... I just took the young man to be someone who was following Jesus who the guards tried to sieze and who wormed his way out of his clothes to get away...

PS - It sounds like it's a good thing you got away from THAT church, whatever it was.

tablariddim

01-30-00, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Lori:

firstly, that I don't think what homosexuals do is even considered sex. When I say sex, I mean intercourse. You can't have intercourse if both of the parts are the same right? So really, I view homosexual sex more as "assisted masturbation".

Look, I'm not gay but I can tell you that homosexual men HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE...shock! :eek:
Yes Lori, they fcku up the ssa and take it deep throat.
Assisted masturbation? do me a favour, for someone with your sexual experience you seem to be into some serious denial here!
BTW, when did it become a sin to have sex with your husband...duh?
... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

tablariddim

01-30-00, 04:17 PM

One of the most, if not apparently the most sensitive erogenous zones in a man is about an inch up his rectum.
Is this God's little joke? ;)
... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

tablariddim

01-30-00, 04:22 PM

Yeah thanx TS,
he had to 'worm' himself out of his clothes in order to get away...I get it.
... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

truestory

01-30-00, 04:32 PM

Tab'

You find that to be unreasonable? Have you ever seen people struggle physically? Haven't you ever seen police grab someone by the shirt, they worm out of their shirt and run???

Oh, yeah, and in case you don't remember... people dressed quite differently back then...

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 30, 2000).]

Searcher

01-30-00, 06:59 PM

TS,

The bun in the oven is almost done - about 3 more weeks! Thanks for asking, and how about yours?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Flash

01-31-00, 01:32 AM

TS,
Well.... thanks for explaining.... :)

Lori,

You are looking to those who do not understand the faith to teach it to you? Why? If you needed a math tutor, would you seek out instruction from someone who got straight F's in math???? Why?
These are the things that I have been taught, Lori....things that I have heard..now not to such extreme...but yet the messages are the same... Not to mention...I feel that the Bible contains many messages such as the church used in my example...which btw happens to be only 45 minutes away from the town I had lived in up until the last year....LOL
Well...it's like this.. TS and you believe it doesn't matter what condition a person is in..regarding "sin"..that he accepts you just the same... Yet..if this is true..why would one have to change ??? In order to stay out of hell...that's why...so here we go back to God intimidating people via FEAR!!!!! It's just not right.... For the record...if loving another person just because they are the same sex is such a sin.... well... that's just insane!!!!!
I'm out of time...will finish this later tonight......

666

01-31-00, 03:21 AM

Truestory,

If I am to be sin free I can not accept a gift that is bourn from sin. If God is all loving and all knowing he then knew he was sending is own child to sluaghter. Being as guilty as those who killed his son by knowing the out come before he even sent his child to his fate. This is murder, a SIN!

------------------
All I know is what I understand. All I understand is what I know. :)

truestory

01-31-00, 06:11 AM

666,

Although Jesus Christ is sometimes referred to as the "Son," Jesus Christ is actually "God in the flesh." God sacrificed His own flesh and blood so that our sins would be forgiven. It was not a sinful act, it was the ultimate loving act on the part of God who loves us most. He came to save us!

While He dwelled with us in the flesh, He taught us how to live in right relationships through love. Through the selfless sacrifice of His own flesh and blood, He offered the gift of salvation to us all so that our sins would be forgiven if we accepted the gift... Through His crucifixion, God also demonstrated that it is not this temporary life that we should be most concerned about. Through His resurrection He sent another profound message to us... that we may dwell for all eternity with God if we choose... the kingdom of heaven awaits those who accept God's loving gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Flash

01-31-00, 07:35 AM

Cont...
You may disagree that God does not operate through fear...well read the following story straight from the bible:
Acts 5:1-11
Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property.
2
With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
3
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
4
Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
5
When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.
6
Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
7
About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
8
Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" "Yes," she said, "that is the price."
9
Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."
10
At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11
Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

Talk about making an example out of people. This is a bit harsh...don't you think? The christians on this BB talk about God's love being UNCONDITIONAL...yet he KILLED this husband and wife all becaused they lied about the money!?!?!?!?!? I'd really like to know how you, or anyone for that matter, could possibly say this was done because God loved them. Do you know that Charles Manson taught that through love... He brainwashed them into thinking that killing those people was an act of LOVE for him and towards the people they killed. You may not like that comparison....but it's true.
Ok, let's look at the comparison at which you have talked about in the past...that being God as our "father"...that he's just being a parent. Lori, if you had a child..in order for them to learn a lesson..would you kill your child???? Why not????? Now you may state that life and death are reserved for God only...however, doesn't it say we are to be LIKE God???? You'd just be following his example. I know..it makes you sick at heart to even think of such an example...it does me too...
so why should it make me any less repulsed at acts like this which God had demonstrated in the Bible???? Please do not get mad..instead think about what I am trying to say here....please.

Now this is what I really want you to understand, and every one else out there for that matter. You are a sinner like it or not, and so am I, and so is everybody else out there, EXEPT FOR JESUS
By sin you mean those things which God established as wrong.... to me though it is wrong doing towards others... things that go against what my heart tells me is wrong. Now that we have that cleared up...I have never stated that I haven't done things which are wrong....never....I'm human..that's gonna happen every now and then..at least once a year :) So why you keep wanting to pound that in our non-believing heads..I don't know.
As far as repenting to God and following him... why?? To stay out of hell????? I do not like intimidation..why should I make an exception here???

Jesus loves YOU, JUST THE WAY YOU ARE. He just needs you to love Him that way too.
If this is so true...why does he want to change me and anyone else??? It's kind of like when you start dating someone. You think hmmmmm I really like this person..time passes and what you think is love is now in your head/heart... you make a commitment with this person with the intentions of changing somethings that you do not like about this person........ NOW really..is that right????? NOPE! Get the picture?

------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited January 31, 2000).]

tablariddim

01-31-00, 09:52 AM

TS,
do you think people put on light sleeping garments if they intended to spend the night out in the open, in March/April, even in Palestine?
This person was obviously not wearing much (he left behind, a single sic, garment).
We've all seen Jesus of Nazareth and we all have a fair idea of the dress of the period.
Now I can understand somebody losing, say a cloak, as he squeezed out from a throng but no more. And I wouldn't expect him to be totally naked underneath his cloak in this ultra conservative society he was living in.

Personally I don't have any deep convictions over this verse one way or the other, but I thought I'd mention it as it was within the context of the previous posts.
Most importantly, I think this verse has been included in the bible for a profound reason and not just as a statement of fact of an incidental and otherwise totally irrelevant episode.
Either that, or it was an oversight of the censors/editors.
... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

Flash

01-31-00, 11:36 AM

Lori and or any other christian:
What do you think about the scriptures they have given???? I know...it's long...but I'd
REALLY like to know if you don't mind.

Doesn't the Bible say that God loves everyone?
No. You are probably thinking of John 3:16, which says no such thing. The word translated "world" in that verse (kosmos) NEVER means every individual of mankind who has ever lived (see, e.g., John 17:9). Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau, and Psalm 5:5 says that God hates all WORKERS of iniquity (e.g., fags). Other examples are Proverbs 6:16-19, Psalm 11:5, and Malachi 1:3. Given these verses, how can you say God loves everyone? Can you really say "God loves everyone" when God says "I hated Esau?" Does God love the people in hell?

Or, you are thinking of "God is love." God certainly is love, toward His elect (His children). But He certainly is not love toward the reprobate (children of the devil). That's why His elect go to heaven, and the reprobate go to hell. In Romans 9:13, which says "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated", Jacob is a representative of God's elect, while Esau is a representative of the reprobate. In Romans 1, the word "reprobate" is used to describe fags. Fags are reprobate. God hates reprobates. Therefore, God hates fags.

Furthermore, God specifically says that He ABHORS people who engage in sodomy (as well as other forms of sexual perversion): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them...And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them." Leviticus 20:13,23. Understand? GOD ABHORS FAGS.

God's hatred is one of His holy attributes, whereby He reveals Himself as having a fixed and immutable determination to punish the finally impenitent with eternal perdition. God's hatred is not like man's hatred. His hatred is holy, pure, unchanging, while man's hatred is a sinful, fickle emotion.

Back to top

Why do you preach hate?
Because the Bible preaches hate. For every one verse about God's mercy, love, compassion, etc., there are two verses about His vengeance, hatred, wrath, etc. The maudlin, kissy-pooh, feel-good, touchy-feely preachers of today's society are damning this nation and this world to hell. They are telling you what you want to hear rather than what you need to hear, just like what happened in the days of Isaiah and Jeremiah: "That this [is] a rebellious people, lying children, children [that] will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us." Isaiah 30:9-11; "Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart." Jeremiah 14:14; "They have healed also the hurt [of the daughter] of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when [there is] no peace. Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time [that] I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD." Jeremiah 6:14-15. And also in the New Testament we are warned: "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith." I Timothy 1:11-13; "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." II Peter 2:1,2. What you need to hear is that God hates people, and that your chances of going to heaven are nonexistent, unless you repent. What you need to hear is a little fire and brimstone preaching, like Jesus preached. What you don't need to hear is that you're okay just the way you are, and God accepts everyone without exception. Don't listen to the money-grubbing heretic who stands at the front of your church. Listen to God. If you are one of His elect, you'll hear.

Back to top

Doesn't God forgive everyone?
No. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth (Romans 9:18). God is sovereign, and does whatsoever he will in the army of heaven and amongst the inhabitants of the Earth, and none can stay his hand. You must come to term with two facts, which are extremely difficult for the flesh to grasp: First, God does not exist to serve you, you exist to serve him. Second, you are without the ability, of your own will, to do anything pleasing to God. You have no work to offer which is worthy in his sight. The best works of humans are as filthy rags in God's eyes. Your flesh is at war with his spirit. These are all phrases taken from passages in the scriptures. And you will not serve God, unless and until he draws you to him. And if he draws you, you will not be able to resist. You will recognize that every human, at the moment of birth, utterly deserves to go straight to hell. Even so, in his justness, God had mercy on some, and named some his children, whom he will lead to glory. Your best hope is that you are among those he has chosen. Your prayer every day should be that you might be. And if you are not, nothing you say or do will serve as a substitute. And if you are, you will praise and worship him, in humble gratitude, day and night. Ask yourself this question: Does God forgive the people in hell.

MoonCat

01-31-00, 12:18 PM

Flash~

Oh, man, that site gave me the heebies. Sick, sick, sick. These kinds of people are NOT filled with any kind of love, from any kind of Diety. They are selfish, narrow minded cowards. They hide behind their strong words, (c'mon, they could have at least used the term "homosexual" instead of "fag"), their psudo-logic, the mob mentality. They appeal to weak-willed people that want to feel strong by allying themselves to anything that demonstrates a bit of power.

Fortunately, Mother Nature takes care of these types in one way or another. Balance will prevail, and a lot of these types end up in jail, recieving it in the tail-end, if you know what I mean. I'm glad we're all in agreement that these people are WRONG.

Flash

01-31-00, 12:29 PM

Moon,
:eek: Whoaaaaaaaaaa!!!! I guess you are right about all of us being in agreement.....now that's a FIRST! LOL

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited January 31, 2000).]

Lori

01-31-00, 03:02 PM

Whoa is me.

Tab,

Figures. Soooo, what biology class were you in? The one in which one man pokes another man up the butt, and nine months later, they give birth to a 9 pound turd? Listen, men can have "sex" with sheep if they want to, and may I remind you that some men actually do. Women can have "sex" with a bath tub faucet if they so desire???? What the hell is your point? Are you guys actually retarded enough to think that is why God gave you the sex organs that He did? Give me a break ok? You could show the "penis/vagina" puzzle to a five year old child and I'd bet they could figure it out. Come on, really. The fact is that anal sex is not only disgusting, but it's a health risk as well. I mean think about it for crying out loud. They stick their dicks into the same hole that their poop comes out of! That's disgusting! And all women do is use something else besides the penis that's supposed to be there. Fingers, instruments, you know, whatever happens to be laying around on the night stand I guess. Whatever. It makes no sense, and everybody out there knows it, it just feels good and so they don't want to stop. So they try to come up with all of these rationalizations, which none hold any water whatsoever. Who you have sex with and how is a choice. Period. Just like your salvation is. YOU choose.

And the reason I said that the last time I had sex with my husband was sinful is because he pulled out before he came. He knows that I'm off the pill, and doesn't want to get me pregnant. It's funny cause my brother the atheist was just making fun of some OT verse that said something to the effect of a man being stoned if he lets one drop of semen hit the ground or something like that. He thought it was non-sensical and mean and crazy, you know, just like you guys think. At first, it does sound that way, knowing how messy sex can get and all, but I only had to give it about 60 seconds of thought before I knew what the law was about. The law is about the intention behind the sex. A MAN SHOULD BE WILLING TO EMBRACE THE CONSEQUENCE OF HIS SEXUAL ACTIVITY, WHICH IS A CHILD, IF GOD SO DESIRES. In other words, my husband shouldn't be looking to have sex with me if he is not looking to be a father. Period. Now is that really so bad????? No, it's perfectly logical, as is EVERYTHING in the Bible.

And I'm sorry but I just have to do this...

Awwwww, poor little Tab. Boo-hoo! God doesn't want him to get poked up the butt, so he can't enjoy his little poopy errogenous zone. Awwwww, you poor little thing. Whaaaaa! Whaaaaaa!

You know what the hottest thing is about anal sex Tab? The glob of vaseline/semen/poop mixture that comes oozing out afterward. Yum. Makes me horny just thinkin' about it. Would you like me to talk about abortion next? ;)

See? I told you guys that we had reduced the gift of sex down to the equivalent of taking a shit. LOL! So that's why that first one of the day feels so good huh? LMAO! You're a freak!!!!!

Flash,

Ok, so those are the things that you've been taught? What is your point? You were obviously taught wrong, so??????? What does that mean, that you HAVE to continue buying into the same old erroneous crap that you've believed until now? You know as well as I do that you DON'T WANT this to make sense, so you PURPOSEFULLY make it erroneous and therefore irreconcilable. You make one of your assumptions, I explain to you how you're TOTALLY wrong, and then all you can say is, "Well, I've always been wrong, so I'm going to continue to."????????????? What is wrong with your head girl? I mean what the are you saying? You WANT to believe that these people in this church are actually interpreting the faith correctly and that I'm not? Are you nuts? Do you think that the KKK and abortion clinic bombers are interpreting the scriptures correctly too? Do you know what that means Flash????? WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT YOU ARE JUST AS STUPID AND CLOSE-MINDED AS THOSE PEOPLE ARE, AND IF YOU WERE TO CALL YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN, THEN YOU WOULD BE ONE OF THOSE IDIOTS ABOVE THAT ARE JUST AS BLIND AS YOU ARE RIGHT NOW. And that sweety, doesn't make a darn bit of sense. What a shocker!

Have to change WHAT????? What are you sooooooo terribly afraid that you'll have to change???? Don't you get it Flash? You don't try not to sin just so you don't go to hell. You try not to sin BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. I can't believe you even made me say that. What are you some kind of temper-tantrum throwing spoiled 5 yr old brat? What the? Is that really what drives your behaviour? The avoidance of negative consequence? Well, that doesn't surprise me all that much I guess, but it sure is a shallow way to live that's for sure.

And who said that loving a person of the same sex is a sin? Here, let me say this for the gazillionth time, you know, as if you hadn't heard this before, and don't KNOW that it's true...YOU SHOULD LOVE EVERYONE THE SAME. You should have sex with your spouse. Now, I know that you're not retarded so?????? Wassup with all of these dumb-ass questions. Are you just plain beyond thinking at all or what? Oh yea, you said it was too difficult to think about this stuff you're taking the igorance is bliss approach. Now I remember. Here's an example....I love you, but I don't want to have sex with you. If I did, would it "feel good"? Yea. Would it "hurt" anybody (by your rather limited definition)? No. Would it have any bearing on how much we loved each other? NO. Do you love the person that you do have sex with MORE than EVERYONE else in this world? NO. Sooooooooooo what's your point again??????? Maybe you missed it (I know you didn't) but we've already determined that sex and love don't have a thing to do with each other. Get with the program.

Does God forgive the people in hell? Yea, BUT ONLY IF THEY ASK HIM TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Flash, it's not about fear. If you believe unto the Lord ONLY for the selfish reason of keeping your sorry butt out of hell, then you will certainly be sadly disappointed. It's about a choice Flash. You can go to hell if you want to. Aren't you the one that gets sooooooooo bent about free will????? Well? Why don't you just talk out both sides of your mouth then???? Hey, if you're that afraid, then why go? It's not like you don't have a choice????????? You don't make much sense Flash. I'm sorry. I still wub you though. And no, I don't want to have sex! LMAO!

Geez, see what Monday mornings do to me? *mental note: limited conversation on Monday mornings. Think happy thoughts. :)*

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited January 31, 2000).]

Flash

01-31-00, 03:29 PM

Lori,
Just what the heck are you on today????? Damn, woman! Are you on a roll of some kind today or what???????? :eek:
How the hell do you know I was taught wrong, Lori??????????????? I can't believe I am even going there with you about this....
You have read the scriptures...then you explain them to me.....huh???? Explain why it says God hates these people...sinners .etc.. can you fully????
It all boils down to this... One is suppose to accept Jesus in their hearts..believe in God..blah blah blah.... ok..with this..one is now "saved"....however, it says that sin separates people from GOd...and in the same breath...everyone is a sinner no matter what...sooooooo whooooo the bloody heck gets to go to heaven if one has to be "sin-free"
in order to get there???????? It's not possible then..is it?!?!?!?!?!
AND FYI ...... I think those people are jerks and full of shi*..... but, this is how I see the bible too....sooooo duh!!! What I mean by that is the scriptures that I read are there....I see where the heck they get it from because it is alllllllll in black and white. Are you telling me that just because the bible says God hates these people
doesn't mean that he really does??? which is it????
I'm not even getting into the love debate with you again...... there is a difference between love of a friend/family and love of a life long partner.... ya know??? grrrrr!!!
I'm NOT bloody well scared of going to hell!!!! Alright?????!!!!!!!! I just think that the Bible's views of it are crazy..it's all crazy!!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

truestory

01-31-00, 03:35 PM

Flash,

As far as the scriptures which were quoted, I have already explained that "Identity Churches" such as the one that was featured in your original post pick and choose verses from the Bible which they hope will gain them support for their hate messages and they hide behind the "label" of "Christian" in the hope that it will gain them additional support... like many others, they are under the influence of the master of deceit...

truestory

01-31-00, 03:41 PM

Flash,

I couldn't help but notice your question to Lori:

everyone is a sinner no matter what...sooooooo whooooo the bloody heck gets to go to heaven if one has to be "sin-free"

I have spent a lot of time explaining this to you, and I am pretty sure that by now you can answer this question yourself... Would you mind trying?

Flash

01-31-00, 03:43 PM

TS,
Than can you or someone out here explain to me why those scriptures are even in the bible???? They picked those scriptures from the BIBLE..... soooooo why????
I'm being sincere as I can be...why???

Flash

01-31-00, 03:47 PM

TS,
I know you have tried to explain it to me again and again....but I do not get it..it doesn't make sense.
A) get saved
B) maintain the walk with God/Jesus
C) DO NOT SIN
BUT..... Did you not say we are all sinners no matter what?????????? If that is true..then everyone is screwed anyway and then it becomes one big joke, yes?
I just don't understand it....I can't it explain it.... it doesn't make sense. :(

Lori

01-31-00, 03:55 PM

Flash,

Give me a break, it's Monday! I just can't help it...yours and others opinions on this subject make my brain hurt. It's just nonsense. I mean, this stuff isn't nuclear physics you know? It's not nearly as difficult as everyone tries to make it out to be. And to boot, and as TS so politely pointed out, you're playing dumb again. I thought you told me that you would make an effort not to do that? :)

NOW PLEASE LISTEN TO ME

1 God doesn't HATE anyone. God hates someTHING, which is sin.

2 You DO NOT, listen closely now, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES HAVE TO BE SIN-FREE TO GET TO HEAVEN. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!

3 All you have to do is ADMIT that there is such a thing as sin, admit that you are a sinner (and I'm sorry sugar, but once a year? I hope you were joking about that.), and ask for forgiveness, and try not to sin. It's all about intentions Flash. So here, let me say it this way AGAIN....if you aren't aware of the fact that you are sinning, then how could you possibly stop sinning? It's your intentions Flash.

There is not a difference between loving anyone. You don't love someone because you have sex with them. That's retarded. And you don't have sex with people just because you love them. Don't get me started now! Oh, and you mean a life-long committed monogamous partner? Like a spouse for example??????? ROFLMAO!!!!!! You are such a flippin' hypocrit. Yea, nevermind is right. (and I'm rolling my eyes so far back in my head that I almost fell out of my office chair). Don't even go there miss thang.

You already explained why you see the Bible as crazy remember? That's right, cause you WANT it to be, and refuse to listen to logical explanations and teachings. So wow, what a surprise you say that.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited January 31, 2000).]

Flash

01-31-00, 04:06 PM

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
LORI,
I'm not playing stupid you twit!!! It's just that it does not make sense...... ok, so maybe I AM bloody stupid.....but I don't get it. Look God may hate sin...but what about the scripture....
Psalm 5:5 says that God hates all WORKERS of iniquity ...
To me it says he hates the WORKERS ...doesn't say God hates the sin but loves the sinners.....it says the WORKERS.
Now I am sorry if that appears like a dumb question on my part....but... ohh..forget it..you just don't get it ..do you?

Lori

01-31-00, 04:13 PM

I'm sorry pooky. I know you're not dumb. I don't think that you consciously do it on purpose either. I think it's more along the lines of a paradigm with you that you just won't break through, because subconsciously you really like your little paradigm just the way it is. Everyone including myself is reluctant to change.

If someone were to ask me, like as a pop quiz or something, who does God refer to as the "workers" of inequity? My answer would be Satan and his demons. But to my understanding, God doesn't even hate Satan. He hates what he does. He hates what we do sometimes too. It's the sin, not the sinner. That message is pretty clear Flash????? I think that you try to take pieces of the Bible out of context and try to take them too literally. Cutting your nose off to spite your face, or something along those lines.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

truestory

01-31-00, 04:22 PM

Flash,

Yes, accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour(getting saved) is correct.

Walking with Jesus Christ during this life is also correct.

NOT SINNING is not correct because it is virtually impossible for us to do. However, doing your best to avoid even the temptation to sin, with the help of Jesus Christ is correct.

And... being in the saving grace of Jesus Christ when you die is what makes you sin-free in the eyes of God.

truestory

01-31-00, 04:28 PM

Lori,

If I understand you correctly, I agree that the spirits of evil are what is being referred to as the workers of iniquity (the workers of Satan). Not human sinners.

Flash

01-31-00, 04:31 PM

Lori,
Ok..... what about this scripture???
Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau..that's pretty clear..isn't it???

TS,
Thank you! At least I know where you are coming from now. How does Jesus make one sin-free though? Why would one have to continually repent if it doesn't matter because their status is now that of sin-free?? I just..I don't understand how that can work.

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited January 31, 2000).]

truestory

01-31-00, 05:12 PM

Flash,

Do you know the meaning of Jesus Christ as our "Saviour"? Jesus Christ/God died in the flesh so that our sins would be forgiven. That was the loving gift of salvation from God which we must accept in order to be saved. Although we must recognize and repent for our sins because they are offensive to God, there is nothing really humanly possible that we could do to make up for our abundance of sins other than to recognize the loving sacrifice of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, as the saving grace of the souls of mankind.

Although we are all still sinners, as long as we accept the gift of salvation, recognize our sin and ask for forgiveness, God will know what is truly in our heart when we face Him. If we are with the saving grace of Jesus Christ, then we will be saved.

PS - It's been nice discussing with you today... Have to go now... See you later! :)

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 31, 2000).]

truestory

01-31-00, 05:54 PM

tab'

Personally I don't have any deep convictions over this verse one way or the other, but I thought I'd mention it as it was within the context of the previous posts.
Most importantly, I think this verse has been included in the bible for a profound reason and not just as a statement of fact of an incidental and otherwise totally irrelevant episode.
Either that, or it was an oversight of the censors/editors.

Personally, I could care less if Jesus Christ was naturally or supernaturally asexual, bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, married or single!

Lori

01-31-00, 09:44 PM

Flash,

It says that before the twins were born, or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand; not be works but by him who calls. Then it says that the older will serve the younger. Just as it is written; "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated". So I want to know what's the story on Jacob and Esau's lives? Is God's purpose in election revealed? Keep in mind as well that God is aware of what we will do before we do it. It's apparently a characteristic of omnipotence? Neato, huh? Think of it this way....the universe is one huuuuuuuuge and complex game of chess, we are the game pieces, the universe is the game board, Satan's angels and God's angels are opponents, and God won the game before it even started. He created the game, and He's the only one with enough foresight to be able to really play offensively. Satan merely reacts defensively until check-mate time. It's just a matter of time. Sooo, salvation is a person's choice, He just knows what you're going to choose before you do. And this passage is referring to mercy, as opposed to salvation, which is very different. That's why I asked what happens with the two brothers?

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Searcher

01-31-00, 11:10 PM

Lori,

1 God doesn't HATE anyone. God hates someTHING, which is sin.

Romans 9:13 clearly states that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Whether it was because of the actions God knew Esau would later commit or whatever - God hated Esau. Period. There are many examples of this kind of hatred throughout the OT, and I believe we've already covered this ground pretty thoroughly. Spending eternity with a hateful diety is not exactly my concept of heaven, but thanks anyway.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Flash

02-01-00, 07:24 AM

TS,
I know what the meaning of Jesus as Saviour is suppose to be...it just doesn't jive in my head.

Lori,
Just as Searcher pointed out...what it boils down to is that God HATED Esau. Now, from what I understand from you is that God is suppose to love everyone.....but, the bible points out that is not the case. So then...there are those who will not follow God/Jesus no matter what..yes? Yes! This is what it states. So then..why would people even waste their time "spreading" the "word"
of God?
I agree with Searcher.... I wouldn't want anything to do with a God who hates. THIS
alone would keep me from ever considering him as my God. Thanks..but, what I have is
the Spirit of Truth who is ALL loving...no
exceptions. So I guess your God doesn't really love unconditionally after all, huh?

------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

truestory

02-01-00, 11:07 AM

Regarding Romans 9:13... This discusses the reasons why some believe and some don't, why some seem to be shown mercy while others aren't. In Semetic usage "hate" means to love less.

Many believed that God loved a "chosen" few based on who their ancestors were and that God bestowed upon them the divine gifts of faith and mercy. Many believed that this demonstrated that God loved a "chosen" few more than others. The case in point in Romans 9:13, what seemed to be God's choice of Jacob over Esau, runs contrary to Semetic custom and belief.

The message here was that mere natural descent from Abraham does not ensure that one will end up in full possession of the divine gifts.

Lori

02-01-00, 11:13 AM

Excuse me Flash, but do you plan on answering my question about Jacob and Esau? What happened with them? Also, you guys put as much thought into interpreting the Bible as I do in tying my shoelaces. You expect it to be like a text book don't you? That's kind of dumb. Sorry, but.... :)

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-01-00, 12:59 PM

Lori,
Hey..OT is not my thing... all I remember from that story is that Esau sold his birthright for some stew...Jacob stole Esau's
blessing... Jacob was pissed....in the end they made up....ummmmmmm you tell me! LMAO

Lori

02-01-00, 02:06 PM

Well Flash, without reading the WHOLE STORY I can't begin to try to interpret. That's what I mean when I diss the amount of thought that you all put into this. You expect to just open the book, point your finger, and take a little piece OUT OF CONTEXT, and without understanding, and then try to interpret it yourselves. You're doing it wrong is what I'm saying. Listen, if you EVER really WANT to UNDERSTAND the Bible, then you are going to have to try a LOT harder, and give it MUCH more thought than you and Searcher and others are willing to do. That's what I mean when I say that you guys REALLY don't WANT to understand it. Either that or it's too difficult, and would take too much effort. This I promise though, if you TRULY wanted to understand, and you TRULY put as much effort into seeking understanding as you do seeking misunderstanding, then you WOULD understand. I'd bet everything I have on that. Any takers?

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

SailorMike

02-01-00, 02:22 PM

It's not that I don't understand, I don't believe. That's the question. How do u KNOW the bible, koran, torah, or my master's thesis, is true?

U carefully verify all the statements by INDEPENDENT soucres.

U don't say, this book says Y is true.

This book is true.

Therefore Y is true.

Don't u see the circular reasoning, the missing middle term in the logic?

Now if U believe because U WANT to believe, fine. But don't pretend to have verifiable evidence that ur believe is true.

Believe any fairy tale u want.

But don't try to make the rest of us behave as we believed the same fairy tale. And don't pretend u have PROVEN anything!

------------------
The Sailor says, remember Omar was right.

Lori

02-01-00, 02:56 PM

Sailor dude,

What you just suggested is what I'm suggesting that you do with the Bible. Verify what it says with independent sources. That's EXACTLY what I've done with God's word, and suggest that YOU and others do as well. Get it? That's how I got religion, see? It must be ver convenient for you all to assume that I just believe what I do because it is written. Let me tell you under no uncertain terms, I do not believe because it is simply written. I believe because what is written is PROVEN and VERIFIED EVERYWHERE I LOOK. Try other religions, all of them for that matter, try science, history, anthropology, archeology, physics, my own life experience, the alien phenomenon. There is solid proof of the manifestation of the spiritual laws in the Bible EVERYWHERE. Zombies! Open your eyes!!!!! Yea, it requires some really really deep and honest thought. What? Is that beyond you guys?

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-01-00, 03:03 PM

Lori,
Whatever! :rolleyes:

------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

truestory

02-01-00, 03:14 PM

The highest principles for our aspirations and judgements are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition. -Albert Einstein

Do you remember how electrical currents and 'unseen waves' were laughed at? The knowledge about man is still in its infancy. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God. - Albert Einstein

The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books--a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. - Albert Einstein

tablariddim

02-01-00, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by truestory:
tab'

Personally, I could care less if Jesus Christ was naturally or supernaturally asexual, bisexualsic, heterosexual, homosexualsic, married or single!

Hallelujah, Tracey Lord!..well this proves that you do actually reject some of Gods laws, congratulations True' you have revealed your own Christian based cult!
Talk about cutting you nose off to spite your own face!
:D ... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

tablariddim

02-01-00, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Lori:
Whoa is me.

Tab,
you're a freak!

You say the kindest things. :p
... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

MoonCat

02-01-00, 04:44 PM

Says Lori: "There is solid proof of the manifestation of the spiritual laws in the Bible EVERYWHERE."

Lori~

Those same solid proofs are the same solid proofs I use to verify paganism. Those same "spiritual laws" are the same ones to be found in any good Book of Shadows. I still see no proof that the Christian God is the ONLY God. The only thing I've seen is the Christina mantra "God says so, it's in the bible!".

truestory

02-01-00, 05:00 PM

tab'

And what laws are those that you presume I have rejected?

If it's anything like the supposed "obvious insinuation" that you posted previously, you can save it.

SailorMike

02-01-00, 05:56 PM

Lori:

In that entire diatribe there is not one, not ONE! single verifiable fact. U just scream at the top of ur lungs that u r right because u r right and the rest of r dumb, blind, deaf or obstinate because we can�t (or won�t) c what is obvious to u.

Does the word "fanatic" have any meaning for u?

U have ducked my direct questions, saying ur head hurts.

In a triumph of hope over reason I ask another.

According to the Torah Mohammed is a false prophet lead astray by non-believers. The Koran says no. The New Testament says Jesus was a god, the Torah and the Koran say no. Which is right and how do u know?

"Was then the the seed of wisdom i did sow
And with my own hands labored it to grow
And this was all the harvest that i reaped
I came like water and like wind i go."

U prove, not just scream, but PROVE that attitude is wrong?

------------------
The Sailor says, remember Omar was right.

SailorMike

02-01-00, 06:00 PM

Any "Born-Again Christian" who can answer:

U want us to beleve that every word in the bible is the LITERAL truth, e.g., creation lasted 6 days, there was a garden, an apple, a tree, a snake, God is the one & only infinite being who can violate natural law, make the sun stand still, make a bush burn but not be consumed, bring the dead back to life, (BTW, science can do that Lazarus trick now) feed 5,000 with one man's lunch, etc., etc., etc.
How come God HAD to kill his Son? Pay for the world's sins? Pay who? Who or what compells God to kill his son to pay a debt? Who is that debt owed to? Who IS that guy? Where did HE come from? And why does god killing his son pay that debt? How does that happen?

"God gave his only begotten son. . . " Where is Mrs God? Notice he said "begotten" (literal truth remember, no weaseling here) how come we never hear about her?

Just some obvious questions. Answers????

------------------
The Sailor says, remember Omar was right.

Lori

02-01-00, 06:34 PM

Dude listen,

All I'm saying is that you are soooooooooo misinterpreting what you're reading. And here you are starting off in a discussion debate ready to pounce on my beliefs as if you are even vaguely familiar with what they are. I'm saying that you're not. And I'm also saying that there is no way that I have the time to explain the Bible in the most fundamental sense imaginable to you. There is plenty, o' plenty of interpretations of the Word out there to read. Why don't you read up FIRST, get a clue at least about some things, and then we can debate. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just saying....it seems like you would like me to sum it all up for you in a sentence or two???? People have devoted their entire lives to interpreting that book, ok? It's going to take some effort on your part. And taking the Bible literally, according to your own limited definitions and insights, is dangerous. I think that many, many church-goers have proven that over the years. Use what God gave you between your ears is what I'm saying. You are so far off base, I don't even know where to start. Do a search on Bible, or Christianity, or prophecy. Also, I found a great site the other day called

AnswersinGenesis.org

There's a bunch of articles on there regarding the interpretations of Biblical creation. There now, that should keep you busy for a while. :)

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Searcher

02-01-00, 11:52 PM

Lori,

Well Flash, without reading the WHOLE STORY I can't begin to try to interpret. That's what I mean when I diss the amount of thought that you all put into this. You expect to just open the book, point your finger, and take a little piece OUT OF CONTEXT, and without understanding, and then try to interpret it yourselves. You're doing it wrong is what I'm saying. Listen, if you EVER really WANT to UNDERSTAND the Bible, then you are going to have to try a LOT harder, and give it MUCH more thought than you and Searcher and others are willing to do.

You never cease to amaze me! First you admit that you haven't even read the story of Jacob and Esau, and then you tell Flash (who obviously has read it) that she and I are just not trying hard enough. At least we've read it - how about you???

Okay, here is the story in a nutshell: Esau sold his birthright to his brother, Jacob (who later became Israel) in exchange for some food because he was starving (his brother basically took advantage of him in this moment of weakness). Jacob, who was in cahoots with their mom, Rebekah, tricked their father, Isaac, who was getting blind in his old age, into giving him the blessing that was intended for Esau while Esau was out doing his father's bidding.

And yet God loved the devious Jacob and hated Esau??? What does this tell you about your God? Why don't YOU try giving it some thought for once? :rolleyes:

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Micah

02-02-00, 12:05 AM

Everyone lives by a roadmap; a way of life; a set of beliefs.. This site is so exhausting, it's like one big constant battle over how terrible God is and what a fake Jesus is..yet the same topics keep coming up over and over...which to me says that all are still searching for something to fill the void; the missing gap; the fact is that ALL people are capable of being cruel and hateful; you want to blame there cruelty on God because he created all people but you disregard that fact that satan is the force behind all evil.. What is your roadmap? Where do you find your rest and peace? The word of God is a roadmap and the scriptures are clear to what it says...
No one will ever be perfect; no one will ever be sinless; but those who rest in Christ know where to run when the fall down; not to accuse another religion or another person for the fact that sin happens; we run to Christ who teaches us what is hidden deep within our hearts, the cruelities that are hidden within our own souls...we learn that it is "me" "I" that must change...not the world.......

Flash

02-02-00, 03:09 AM

High-five to Searcher!!!!!!!!!!!
BRAVOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!! *CHEERING*
Thank you!!!!!!!

------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Tony H2o

02-02-00, 04:21 AM

Searcher and Flash,

You have both sorely misunderstood or deliberately twisted Scripture.

Esau

Meaning hairy, Rebekah's first-born twin son #Ge 25:25 The name of Edom, "red", was also given to him from his conduct in connection with the red lentil "pottage" for which he sold his birthright #Ge 25:30,31. The circumstances connected with his birth foreshadowed the enmity which afterwards subsisted between the twin brothers and the nations they founded #Ge 25:22,23,26 In process of time Jacob, following his natural bent, became a shepherd; while Esau, a "son of the desert, " devoted himself to the perilous and toilsome life of a huntsman. On a certain occasion, on returning from the chase, urged by the cravings of hunger, Esau sold his birthright to his brother, Jacob, who thereby obtained the covenant blessing #Ge 27:28,29,36 #Heb 12:16,17 He afterwards tried to regain what he had so recklessly parted with, but was defeated in his attempts through the stealth of his brother #Ge 27:4,34,38 At the age of forty years, to the great grief of his parents, he married #Ge 26:34,35 two Canaanitish
maidens, Judith, the daughter of Beeri, and Bashemath, the daughter of Elon. When Jacob was sent away to Padan-aram, Esau tried to conciliate his parents #Ge 28:8,9 by marrying his cousin Mahalath, the daughter of Ishmael. This led him to cast in his lot with the Ishmaelite tribes; and driving the Horites out of Mount Seir, he settled in that region. After some thirty years' sojourn in Padan-aram Jacob returned to Canaan, and was reconciled to Esau, who went forth to meet him #Ge 33:4 Twenty years after this, Isaac their father died, when the two brothers met, probably for the last time, beside his grave #Ge 35:29 Esau now permanently left Canaan, and established himself as a powerful and wealthy chief in the land of Edom

Hebrews 12:16 And that there may not be any evil liver, or any man without respect for God, like Esau, who let his birthright go for a plate of food.
Hebrews 12:17 For you have knowledge that even long after, when he was desiring the blessing for his heritage, he was turned away, though he made his request frequently and with weeping; because the past might not be changed.

Yes God did hate Esau.

Malachi 1:
2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

But did either of you ever stop to ask why? What did Esau do to provoke God to this? No you didn't, you would rather try to discredit Christian and God than to open up your own narrow minds and understand what was really going on.

Esau sold his birthright or salvation for the craving of his body. Esau turned his back on the promise that was to be handed down to him. A promise of salvation made to Abraham as Gods friend that was to be passed from generation to generation. In other words Esau rejected his salvation and gave it away for a meal, Jacob stepped in and claimed the great promise that Esau toyed with. By the time Esau became aware of what had occurred it was too late and no amount of crying or weeping would redeem him, he treated God and Gods promise of salvation with utter and total contempt. God will take so much and then He draws the line. When He know that someone has totally and completely turned their back on Him, when He knows that they have seared their conscience.

1 Timothy3:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;cociouinous He turns his grace away from them.

The story of Esau is a dire and extreme warning to those who deliberately reject their birthright, it applies to the Jews rejection of Jesus and the Gentiles acceptance of Him but it also applies to individuals who squander the great and wondrous gift and promise of salvation to follow after their own desires in place of Gods will.

This is exactly why I asked you Flash how often will you spit on Gods outstreached hand. He will only take it for so long and then no more, He will with draw his offer because He knows that you have become an Esau.

What will it take to make you weep over salvation?? Will it be as it was with Esau that when you do its to late??

I hope and pray for your eternal souls that it won't!!

H2o

Flash

02-02-00, 04:48 AM

Tony,
Well...so you DO agree then that God hated Esau! Now I ask this...does this make God a liar?????? Isn't he suppose to "love" ALL unconditionally??????? He is throwing a fit! Face it, Tony.

This is exactly why I asked you Flash how often will you spit on Gods outstreached hand. He will only take it for so long and then no more, He will with draw his offer because He knows that you have become an Esau.
AHHHHH!!!!!! Stop it, Tony! I HATE THAT..I HATE THAT! I'm not some evil person just because I don't buy into what you have. Ugh!

What will it take to make you weep over salvation?? Will it be as it was with Esau that when you do its to late??
Too late???? Too late for what?? For hell :rolleyes: Sorry dude...but I am not about to shed tears over this! See..can't you see????? Jesus is trying to make you weak....... depending on him for every little move you make...he keeps gaining ground..and you keep allowing him to take it. Why is that? Can't you see this is nothing but control?

Lori

02-02-00, 11:58 AM

Flash,

I wonder if you could open up that shut up vault of a mind of yours for two seconds to actually try to understand??? I wonder, no I don't, I really don't think it will happen. You are just as bad about this "hating" terminology as Sailor Mike is about his assumption that the earth was created in 6 24 hour periods of time. God still loved Esau. God loves everyone the same. You can't take everything the Bible says at face value. You need to search for meaning and understanding, and you don't. Period.

Also Flash, it's not about control, it's ALL about the right thing to do. Wake up honey!

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-02-00, 12:24 PM

I'm wide awake, Lori..how bout you????
Look, I have an open mind..ok? Just because I do not agree with every bloomin thing you say doesn't mean I haven't tried to think about what you are saying.

God loves everyone the same. You can't take everything the Bible says at face value. You need to search for meaning and understanding, and you don't. Period.
Well...if God doesn't mean what he says..then why say it. You know this is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS the reason you christians give when you cannot explain something.. "you can't take everything the bible says at face value". LOL and you wonder whyyyyyyyyyyyy non-believers are confused about the things that appear to be contradictions in the bible???????? Give me a break.

------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

MoonCat

02-02-00, 12:33 PM

Lori, either God loves unconditionally ALL of his children, or he hates some of them and loves others. It just can't be both ways!

That's like me telling you I love ALL fruit, then saying, "well, I hate banana's because you have to peel them funny". A banana is a fruit, if I hate the banana, I cannot love all fruit, because I hate at least one of them. Do you see what I'm trying to say? It doesn't make sense.

If God loves his children at first, but then when they don't follow in his footsteps (so to speak) he comes out and says he "hates" them and banishes them from his presence forever, that's not unconditional love, either. Unconditional love means just that - love in spite of anything and everything else.

Let's pretend you really wanted your child to become an accountant like you are, you raised this child and told them how wonderful accounting is, how it will support them throughout their lives, how it is honorable work that harms none, yadda yadda yadda. Then the child grows up and becomes a tax consultant instead, and you fly into a rage and kick them out of your life, tell them you HATE them and never want to see them again, ever! Can you truley say you loved that child unconditionally? No, you can't because apparently the condition of that love was that they did what you wanted them to do.

Similarly, God cannot just respect the wishes of someone not to follow his teachings and allow them to have a happy afterlife. Surely it is within his power to create an afterlife to suit everyone, yet he'd rather just shrug his shoulders and say "Shucks. Well, I warned 'em!" and allow this monster (that he also created) torture his child for eternity.

Is that really the type of being you WANT to spend an afterlife with? Unconditional love, indeed! God's love, according to the bible, appears to be a fickle thing, dependant upon your willingness to prostrate yourself before his narcissistic self and beg his mercy for being the human he supposedly created. Seems to me he made a game we're guaranteed to loose, and tried to set himself up as the rescuer (savior!) of our eternal souls. Who was it that mentioned if you half-drown a kitten, then rescue it - are you a savior? That's how I see the God in the bible - a guy that goes around half-drowning his followers (or completely drowning some of them as a punishment, literally speaking), then staging these miraculous rescues to make him look like the good guy.

And yet everyone seems to still like the guy. Help me out - what's the name of that syndrome hostages get when they're trapped with their terrorists? Where the hostages begin to sympathize with and start to even like their captors? That's what I see with this Christian God. We are the hostages, and the big terrorist in the sky wants us to jump through hoops before he lets us go free. And if we don't, the mean guy in the shadows will get to have his way with us. Nice tactics, I guess the mob learned them from God.

Flash

02-02-00, 12:58 PM

Moon,
You did an awesome job with your analogy ...
You made many good and valid points...I just wonder how Lori and or other christians will answer your post... LOL

MoonCat

02-02-00, 02:04 PM

Flash~

I'll guess!

"You didn't really TRY to understand"
or
"If you accepted Jesus into your heart, it would be clear"
or
"You can't take the bible literally"

Prove me wrong, Lori!

Lori

02-02-00, 02:53 PM

Ok, here goes....

Well...if God doesn't mean what he says..then why say it. You know this is ALWAYS
ALWAYS ALWAYS the reason you christians give when you cannot explain
something.. "you can't take everything the bible says at face value". LOL and you
wonder whyyyyyyyyyyyy non-believers are confused about the things that appear
to be contradictions in the bible???????? Give me a break.

That's what I mean when I say you're not trying. You KNOW that God loves us all unconditionally, right? That's pretty straight forward, still I'm surprised that you even picked up that much. So knowing that, why was it that when you read "God hated Esau" that you automatically assumed that "well, there's a contradiction, so the whole thing must be crap". Like your bit o' crap in the middle of your steak analogy. Why don't you give it a little more thought and try to reconcile? Here's what you would come up with if you were to do that....

Taking Mooncat's fruit analogy, I say to you "I hate fruit". Now let's be logical...you and I both know that it's impossible and irrational to "hate" fruit. Just like it's impossible for God to hate any man that He created. I said I hated fruit, but what I REALLY MEANT was that I hated the TASTE of fruit. It explained it right in the same chapter that you were reading when it said that this was in regards to the amount of mercy that was bestowed upon Esau. So if I were to take what you said regarding God seriously, then logically I would assume that if I ever told you "Flash, I hate fruit", that you would immediately suggest that I get some mental help because I have irrational feelings for inanimate objects. That's what I mean by your closed mind. You make everything complicated because that's exactly the way you like it.

Also Mooncat,

Even though God loves you unconditionally, offerred Himself as a human sacrifice FOR YOU SPECIFICALLY, offerred His Word so that you can understand the truth, offerred His Holy Spirit so that you don't have to live in a world that is entirely evil, and tries everyday to speak to your heart and reach you.....IF YOU CHOOSE TO REJECT HIM, THEN HE LET'S YOU REJECT HIM. That's it ok. This isn't nuclear physics. In order for you NOT to spend eternity away from Him, then He would have to go against YOUR FREE WILL. Is that not correct????????????????????????? What the blank do you expect for crying out loud? Being separated from God is not a PUNISHMENT, IT'S A CHOICE THAT YOU MAKE. So make your choice and quit whining about how you can't have it both ways???????? I'm not trying to be a _______, I just don't understand you and Flash's logic AT ALL. Probably because it's NOT logic. *shrug*

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-02-00, 03:49 PM

Gee, Lori...so when God says hate..he actually means he doesn't like our actions??
hmmmm... Do you know where Moon, Searcher, and I can get a book to translate what the HECK God really does mean and which parts are to be taken literally or not?? Funny..if God really wanted all to get the meaning of what he was REALLY SAYING..you would think he would just say what he means without all this other crap without making it look like contradictions. :rolleyes:
I make things complicated, huh??? You want to talk about complicated...how bout the bible!
"Being separated from God is not a PUNISHMENT, IT'S A CHOICE THAT YOU MAKE"
I know that was directed toward Moon..but ..let me say...... A CHOICE???? A CHOICE YOU SAY??????? Heaven or Hell ...well what if I do not want ANY of those as a CHOICE???????????? HMMMMMMMM..then I really do not bloody well have a choice do I? It's like...if you aren't my friend them I'm just gonna kill ya...wah wah wah!!!!! grrrrrr...

truestory

02-02-00, 04:43 PM

MoonCat,

Please, let me ask you this...

Supposing, given what you and/or your husband know about physical violence in the home, you and he decide that the home which you are going to make for yourselves and your family will be one of non-violence, filled with love and respect for everyone.

Now, supposing you and your husband had a daughter that you loved dearly (let's make that "unconditionally") and you continued to live in your home under the same moral principles and continued in your practice of witchcraft in your home while the child was growing up. Over the years she had a tendency to be a very unruly child and prone to violence and over the years you had become very involved and dedicated to your religious beliefs and pagan practices which is what you were sure was helping you cope with this child. One day, shortly after your daughter had turned eighteen, she flew into a rage which was directed at you, your lifestyle, your insistance on your goody-two-shoes non-violence and your other moral and spiritual beliefs. After attacking you both verbally and physically, she moved out abruptly.

Now, supposing that for the next four years, contrary to everything you hold dear, morally and spiritually, and despite the fact that you did NOT force your spiritaul beliefs on her, this child despised you, your morals and your spiritual ways... once this child grew up, everytime she mentioned you to someone (one of her friends, another member of your family, acquaintances or strangers), she spoke extremely disrespectfully about you in a mocking, spiteful and contemptuous manner. Now, let's also suppose that everytime she came to visit you in your home for the next few years, to your face, she incessantly called you the "Wicked Witch of the West" in a vile and hateful tone. When your eyes met hers, all you could see was contempt. If you dared to look at her or open your mouth to her, despite your insistance on non-violence in the home, she would scream "What are you lookin' at?!" or "Who said you could talk to me?!" and she would proceed to smack you and dare you to smack her back. Additionally, everytime she came to visit you, she would rummage through your house, destroying anything which reminded her of your practice of witchcraft... whether it be scented candles or whatever... You considered placing a spell on her to help her, however, you could not do that without her permission (which she would NEVER give you) so, although you "know" that you tried your best and did everything that you possibly could do for her when she was growing up, at this point, you felt that your hands were virtually tied. She refused your help. You considered calling the police on her when she beat you and ransacked your home, but you could not bring yourself to do that, because you believed that this would be too controlling and against the concept of unconditional love. There was nothing you could do for her. She wouldn't listen to you or anyone else unless they believed exactly the way that she did. She was going to do things her way because she knew better.

As far as her grandparents went (your parents), she loved them deeply becuse she felt a connection with them. When she got violent around them, since they too lived this way, they accepted her behavior without objection and it made her feel more welcomed in their home than she felt in yours. In her mind, she "got along" with them just fine and it was you that she "hated".

Now, although you were glad that your daughter felt some sort of connection with your parents, although you could see that she had the capacity to get along with some others (under her terms), and although you continued to love her unconditionally because she is your daughter, her behavior towards you was contrary to the loving ways which you taught her when she was growing up in your home and it hurt you very deeply to see her this way. You expressed your feelings to your daughter and she laughed in your face.

The verbal abuse, beatings and house ransackings went on for four years because each time she showed up at your door, you welcomed her with opened arms in the hopes that this time it might be "different." When she turned twenty-two, although she was still exhibiting the same type of violent and contemptuous behavior towards you everytime she came to visit, one day, she came to you and your husband and "told you" that she was moving back in with you because she had lost her job.

My question to you is this... although you love your daughter unconditionally, would you allow her into your home, "exactly" the way she was behaving, unconditionally, for an indefinite period? Or, would you discuss with her the need for her to modify her bahavior at home before she moved back in? Or, would you suggest that she go and live with your parents? Another alternative?

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 02, 2000).]

MoonCat

02-02-00, 04:48 PM

Lori~

I see. So if your toddler chose to walk towards a rushing river with the obvious intention to jump in, even though you warned them that they could be hurt, you'll just go ahead and allow them that choice, right? Because, y'know, you DID warn them! If they CHOSE to ignore you, well, they get what they deserve! And, just to make your point, even if the toddler falls in and screams for help, you'll go ahead and let him drown. Because the point of no return was the moment they decided to reject your advice, and even though you COULD go over there and rescue him, he made his choice, he crossed the line, and that's that. Period. As you say, it's not rocket science here, this seems pretty simple to me.

Do you see my point? Did that make sense?

For me it boils down to this: God supposedly knows all - past, present, future. Therefore, if that is true, the responsibility for EVERYTHING is in his hands.

If you know that toddler walking towards that rushing river will die if you don't stop them, and you DON'T - who is responsible for that death?? YOU are. I just can't see it any other way.

Free will is but an illusion, because it doesn't carry through to the end. What we apparently have is the appearance of free will - basically we have just enough rope to hang ourselves with. We don't have any will over what will happen to us past the grave, we can only play within these very strict rules that were made up before we were born, that aren't delivered to us in a way that anybody can completely understand, (in fact it takes decades for people to research it and they're still not ever done, or can even agree what the rules are!), with an absolute ending, either door one or door two, no other choices or opportunities to make for yourself your own destiny. Not only that, we're never given an opportunity to decide to play the game or not. We are forced into it, pushed around our entire lives, and then finally at the end we are punished or rewarded according to the big scorekeeper in the sky. Does that sound like a loving parent? Not to me it doesn't. Sounds more like a tyranny.

Okay, so back to the hate thing - so God doesn't always mean what he says. Okaaaay, so how do you know ANYTHING in the bible is what it appears? When God says sex before marriage is a sin, why not interpret that to say something like "sex before marriage can cause heartbreak, so be careful with it". When God says "I am the only God", maybe he REALLY meant "I am the only God bothering to talk to you at the moment." I mean come on! Why is it that the parts of the bible you like and agree with are the parts that are "literal", whereas all the parts that show God to be a nasty jerk are "figurative"?? What if you have it all backwards, and God is a mean control freak and the bible authors added these "figurative" nice things here and there to soften the blow????? Have you ever thought about that? Really - it could be possible, couldn't it?

Once you start throwing away parts of the bible, be it old or new, it puts question marks after the remaining sentences.

So let's see, we've tossed out the "church". Now we're tossing out bits and pieces of the bible that are 'wrong' somehow (God doesn't actually hate, he just says so - !)...so what's left? I don't know if that can be called Christianity anymore.

truestory

02-02-00, 06:13 PM

MoonCat,

Now, we are being compared to toddlers?

Toddlers don't have the ability to reason.

MoonCat

02-02-00, 06:17 PM

truestory~

I use toddlers as an example because compared to an adult, the toddler has less information, less experience, and just generally knows less. Would you not agree that this is similar to the relationship between God and us humans? Are we not his "children" and he is our "father"? Do you object to being called one of "god's children"? Yes, toddlers. Able to walk, but not posessing the full knowledge of the adult.

truestory

02-02-00, 06:48 PM

MoonCat,

Relatively speaking, yes, we know less and have less experience than God.

However, unlike the toddler, we have the ability to reason so that we would know enough not to go walking towards the river to jump in. Hopefully, by now, we don't have to experience "everything" for ourselves before we listen to someone who is wiser and more knowledgable than ourselves.

I don't know about you but, although I will always be considered someone's child and although I will always be considered a child of God - unlike a toddler, I am a mature adult, with reasoning capabilities.

I think it's time we all grow up, take responsibility for ourselves, do the ONE thing that is needed for salvation (if that's what we want) and stop acting like the spiritual babies that we were 2000 years ago when Big Daddy came and sacrificed his own life so that we could be saved from ourselves.

You're right... Now that I think of it, most of us don't act any more reasonable or spiritually responsible than a bunch of spoiled, self-centered toddlers.

Tony H2o

02-03-00, 06:09 AM

Who said God doesn't hate sinners????

And who said God doesn't love sinners????

Who said God's love is unconditional????

Who said God's love is conditional????

Have a go at the following extract from the Bible to get the picture. You'll find what I think at the bottom.

Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Ecclesiastes 3:
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and mighty God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Hosea 14:
1 O Israel, come back to the Lord your God; for your evil-doing has been the cause of your fall.
2 Take with you words, and come back to the Lord; say to him, Let there be forgiveness for all wrongdoing, so that we may take what is good, and give in payment the fruit of our lips.
3 Assyria will not be our salvation; we will not go on horses; we will not again say to the work of our hands, You are our gods; for in you there is mercy for the child who has no father.
4 I will put right their errors; freely will my love be given to them, for my wrath is turned away from him.
5 I will be as the dew to Israel; he will put out flowers like a lily, and send out his roots like Lebanon.
6 His branches will be stretched out, he will be beautiful as the olive-tree and sweet-smelling as Lebanon.
7 They will come back and have rest in his shade; their life will be made new like the grain, and they will put out flowers like the vine; his name will be like the wine of Lebanon.
8 As for Ephraim, what has he to do with false gods any longer? I have given an answer and I will keep watch over him; I am like a branching fir-tree, from me comes your fruit.
9 He who is wise will see these things; he who has good sense will have knowledge of them. For the ways of the Lord are straight, and the upright will go in them, but sinners will be falling in them.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mark 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Luke 7:
41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Corinthians 2
1 And when I came to you, my brothers, I did not come with wise words of knowledge, putting before you the secret of God.
2 For I had made the decision to have knowledge of nothing among you but only of Jesus Christ on the cross.
3 And I was with you without strength, in fear and in doubt.
4 And in my preaching there were no honeyed words of wisdom, but I was dependent on the power of the Spirit to make it clear to you:
5 So that your faith might be based not on man's wisdom but on the power of God.
6 But still we have wisdom for those who are complete in knowledge, though not the wisdom of this world, and not of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nothing:
7 But we give the news of the secret wisdom of God, which he had kept in store before the world came into existence, for our glory;
8 Of which not one of the rulers of this world had knowledge: for if they had, they would not have put the Lord of glory on the cross:
9 But as it says in the holy Writings, Things which the eye saw not, and which had not come to the ears or into the heart of man, such things as God has made ready for those who have love for him.
10 But God has given us the revelation of these things through his Spirit, for the Spirit makes search into all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who has knowledge of the things of a man but the spirit of the man which is in him? in the same way, no one has knowledge of the things of God but the Spirit of God.
12 But we have not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which comes from God, so that we may have knowledge of the things which are freely given to us by God.
13 And these are the things which we say, not in the language of man's wisdom, but in words given to us by the Spirit, judging the things of the spirit by the help of the Spirit.
14 For the natural man is not able to take in the things of the Spirit of God: for they seem foolish to him, and he is not able to have knowledge of them, because such knowledge comes only through the Spirit.
15 But he who has the Spirit, though judging all things, is himself judged by no one.
16 For who has knowledge of the mind of the Lord, so as to be his teacher? But we have the mind of Christ.

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Deuteronomy 7:
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

God knew that if left unchecked sin would contaminate every man, woman and child who was and is and is to come. because of the contamination we can not abide in his presence, He hates sin and He hates the wicked who pursue it He can not allow it to run rampant. But if a wicked man acknowledges his sin before God and repents then God can deal with the sin through the Blood of the lamb, Christ the truth and only sinless one. God knowing this and moved by His compassion and love for a creation that had willingly deserted Him and deserved death provided a final "IT IS FINISHED" act through the death of His Son. An act of selfless love given as a gift for any who would accept it.

I told Oxy the other day that it was an unconditional love given conditionally, I was wrong. (Sorry Oxy unintentionally lead you up the garden path there).

God's love was given freely in the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ my Lord, freely is different than unconditionally, there is a condition attached. You with a free will need to accept Gods gift of Salvation.

When does the sin attached to or committed by an individual become so much that God can no longer turn a blind eye to it? When is it so bad that it makes God angry, personally I think all sin makes God angry but I don't know that I can answer that fully. I do know that we can come to a point where our own conscience can be seared and what is wrong appears right to us, perhaps its when we get to that point and will not budge that God's anger burns against us because He knows that He has provided a way out yet we don't accept it.

Other thoughts??

H2o

truestory

02-03-00, 09:04 AM

Hi Tony,

Among other things, my thoughts lie with your last statement which seems to indicate that salvation is a way "out." I see salvation as a way for God and mankind to enter into a mutually loving relationship.

I see the offer and acceptance of salvation as the bond of the relationship based on mutual pure love and I believe that is what God's great kingdom of heaven is all about... "pure love." If one were motivated to accept salvation purely as a way out... a means to "escape" hell, for example... rather than accepting the gift of love from God because one loves God in return, then since they were motivated by fear rather than love, I do not see them entering into a mutually loving relationship with God. Therefore, the relationship needed to enter heaven would not exist.

What say ye?

MoonCat

02-03-00, 11:40 AM

Truestory~

Yeah, but at least there's hope for a toddler to grow up into the adult. I don't think the Christian view is that humans will eventually grow into Gods. As far as humanity maturing overall, well, I'm not holding my breath. :)

Flash

02-03-00, 11:55 AM

TS,
So you are saying if a person was only willing to submit to God out fear of going to hell that the relationship would be bogus?
Good girl, TS! ;) I must say..I agree with you all the way!
So then..I have a question... why in the bible does Jesus and his followers warn people alllll the time about hell? Why isn't there more love preached and less hell?

Lori

02-03-00, 12:54 PM

Flash,

Duh. Because He loves you and doesn't want you to CHOOSE to go there. The Bible preaches everything about love. Jesus' entire Gospel is nothing but love. What Bible have you been reading???????? You just CHOOSE to see it the way you see it, hence my frustration with you. :)

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-03-00, 01:10 PM

What Bible have you been reading????????
The one without the little handy dandy notes explaining which things should be taken literally and which should not..and the translation of what God really means vs. what he says in the Bible. That one..that's the Bible I've been reading out of.

------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Lori

02-03-00, 01:51 PM

Ah yes. You asked for a book to translate it in an earlier post. That's where praying and guidance from the Holy Spirit comes in. There are also many, many other sources of interpretation, but you only look at the ones like you started this post with. Why? BECAUSE YOU WANT TO. Why? BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT THE BIBLE TO BE TRUE. That's why.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

truestory

02-03-00, 02:04 PM

MoonCat,

On that same note, spiritually speaking, you are still stuck in the infantile stages of paganism after all these years. Regardless of the fact that God, who is much wiser and more experienced, came in the flesh to teach you the truth. You haven't even reached the spiritual toddler stage of acknowledging Jesus Christ/God yet.

Yes, MoonCat, like our parents, we can become adults. However, none of us will ever "become" everything that our parents are or were, MoonCat... Whether it be our physical parents or our spiritual parent.

PS - speaking of being a parent... have you decided what to do about your daughter yet?

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 03, 2000).]

MoonCat

02-03-00, 02:32 PM

True~

"Infantile stages of paganism"?? Are you saying I am new and therefore an "infant" or are you trying to say that paganism itself is the infant? If it's the former, I agree, I have much to learn. If it's the latter, I disagree. Newer does not mean better or more accurate, it just means more recent.

God - "much more wiser and more experienced" - than who? My God & Goddess? Than I am? Than you are? I don't even know where to go with that one.

Heh, heh, you seem to think that choosing God is something that people will naturally mature or grow into, or something. I'm not sure what your point is, actually, except that you seem to be determined to try to make me feel like I'm being stupid or "infantile" by not choosing your faith.

Jesus Christ/God does not exist, as far as I can determine. I don't accept that which is not true. It has nothing to do at all with maturity, it has everything to do with personality and sprituality. My personality is such that I cannot accept the God you believe in. I have learned about him from people I care deeply about (don't forget my Catholic Grandmother, a woman I was proud to sit beside and listen to throughout my childhood), I have heard many lovely words about him (much better ones than you've given me). I have sung Amazing Grace at my uncle's funeral, and wished with all my heart for him to find the God and peace he believed so strongly in.

But that belief simply is not for me. I made the invitation, and it was returned "address unknown", do you see what I'm saying at all? God/Jesus has never come to me in the flesh, unless you mean that grubby man near the grocery store that I give my change and extra loaves of bread to. He's quite adamant in the fact that he is God's chosen messenger, and I got to tell you, he's got some good material! Heh, heh, he's blessed me several times, I must have the golden ticket to heaven by now. LOL

And you are even more confused than I thought, what daughter might that be that you're speaking of? The closest thing I have to a daughter is my 6 year old cat, and she's doing just fine, thank you.

tablariddim

02-03-00, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by truestory:
MoonCat,
My question to you is this... although you love your daughter unconditionally, would you allow her into your home, "exactly" the way she was behaving, unconditionally, for an indefinite period? Or, would you discuss with her the need for her to modify her bahavior at home before she moved back in? Or, would you suggest that she go and live with your parents? Another alternative?

Dear True',
your analogy is very good and not an uncommon occurence in real life.
However, there is one fundamental flaw. Something which I think is the basic stumbling block between undecided/belief and faith and acceptance of God.
You see, the difference between Moon' and her husband and God, is that they are real flesh and blood people, where God is merely an illussion.
The real flesh and blood parents nurture and love their child with great commitment and personal sacrifice which is very real, physical and self evident. There is no need for any mysterious searching and deducing necessary for the child to be aware of their parents and to have a communicative and loving relationship with them.
If the child then decides to reject the parents and does what you suggested in your analogy, then they surely are using their freewill, the conequences of which would be mere conjecture and irrelevant to this discussion.
But let me just say something about freewill which has just occured to me. Isn't our freewill based completely on the way we have been taught to act and react to various stimuli by parents, family, school-life and society. And the way that we were able to assimilate, analyse and understand the information we received?
The main influences in a young child usually come from its parents and the strongest influences on the psyche occur before the child is 3 years old. So it would be fair to say that if a child turns out to be rotten, then some if not most of the blame must definetly lie with the parents, as most of us already suspect. You understand what I'm getting at?

To continue, as mentioned, the parents are real! God on the other hand is not.
You have to be taught about God by humans and it usually starts (again) when you are quite young and receptive to deep influences.
Most of these humans can't even agree amongst themselves on who is the true God/s/ess/es or even what the true nature of God is.
Even in the case of Christianity, there are so many denominations, sub denominations, sub sub denominations, sects and cults that you could put a whole bunch of different christians together for a religious debate and you'd be lucky if a fist fight didn't break out.
A lot of these different strata of christianity seem to also have their own systems of interpreting the scriptures and it would be fair to say that many of the interpretations do not tally with one another. Think of Mormons vs Pentecostals vs J W's vs Eastern Orthodox, vs C of E etc and that's without including any of the weirder mass cults or even uniquely personal individualistic cults.
All of these faiths are based on the bible, a composite of humanly, heavily edited and censored stories and accounts of events which are designed to wake up and illuminate the human spirit with Love, compassion, faith and hope .
The humans who are in charge of promoting these faiths and the top hierarchy of Gods representatives here on this Earth know how to milk the seekers of salvation for all they're worth.'Spiritually' induced guilt can make you feel and act very generously. So consequently and sadly, the majority of christian churches are obscenely wealthy, devious and secretive in their financial dealings, hoarding most of their loot for themselves to invest into unknown and questionable ventures, for who knows who's benefit.Certainly not for enough of the poor and needy.

"Follow Jesus", you say. "He is the way and the light, save yourself from eternal damnation, love the lord your God and repent for your sins"

Wow!... seriously powerful messages, but why should I believe you? after all, you say those things because you are a believer and you are very strong in your faith, but I can't feel, see or hear your God, so to me 'he', is merely an illussion, a figment of your imagination. Why should I take your word for it?
You say read the bible, check it out for your self, get the message and believe!
Ok, I say, so I read it and although I find the Christian message appealing, Im rather confused by many inconsistencies and contradictions in both the new but mainly the old testament.
So you say, you are interpreting it incorrectly. I say no, I have studied the bible and I know the correct interpretations, but I still cannot accept the main message because of, of, of etc.
Now we can debate these until the Euphrates turns to blood and I'm sure we will, but not today.
So you say, well go to a church then. I say, I've been there, I bought the T shirt.I don't trust them.
You say, well the answer is to invite Jesus into your heart and love him with all your mind and spirit, read your bible and pray for forgiveness and love for yourself and mankind and you will understand.
I say, I did and I did and I did.
In fact I understood too much.My natural depression turned to feelings of guilt for my ongoing sins, I had the feeling that I had to be perfect in Christ if I was to continue to call myself a Christian. I had serious thoughts of selling my business, giving away my money to the poor, abandoning my wife, who I love dearly (because she wouldn't come with me) and going off to Ethiopia to work with and help the poor and starving.
All very spiritually commendable, or all rather irrational and crazy? I tell you, I came close.
I was very tempted to give it all up for my own peace of mind.(that's an ironically contradictionary thought for a Christian eh?)
Gradually I began to see the ongoing hypocricies, cliqueyness, and suspect motivations of many in and of the church/faith and I decided that I had been deluding myself and enuff was it :rolleyes:
Believe me, I felt as much joy and relief on giving up the Christian faith as I did when I became, 'born again', 4 or 5 years previously.

Jesus is a state of mind.If you allow yourself, you can surely become a fool for this world and follow your Christian heart/mind to where ever it takes you. No doubt (hopefully) you'd be doing good works and spreading the message of love where ever you went, so that's ok for you.
And it would be rather interesting if everybody in the world had the capacity in themselves to emulate Jesus in the true spirit of love, to get up and go and do untold good works in his name, to do everything according to his wisdom without the dogma and bulls**t. It wouldn't even matter if the promise of a heavenly life after death is a lie, at least life on Earth would be loving and peaceful.But we wouldn't be the human societies (as we know them) anymore.Let's face it, life would be utterly different, boring and dull (for most of us ) because we'd, like, to have to deaden parts of our brain and stifle natural thought processes and emotions.
But that's ok, we're all so like Jesus in this pretend world that we actually revel in the 'holyness' of it all, so we don't feel bored, we feel ecstatic!? but we sure miss not having any sinners to patronise..doggone shame that.
It's obviously an idea that couldn't work.

I know, I've rambled a bit (hope I made some sense) but hey...we all got to say our piece y'nah?
Gtg now..
... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

tablariddim

02-03-00, 02:50 PM

Mooncat..GO! :D
... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

Flash

02-03-00, 03:45 PM

Is that so, Lori? Hmmmmm... in a way you are right..but in a way you are wrong.
You have an answer for everything..don't you?? The holy spirit helps to shed light on these things... well, is there only one holy spirit? Reason I ask is because there are a lot of christians that have different views regarding things they have read in the bible...so please explain.

Lori

02-03-00, 04:56 PM

Yea, there is only one Holy Spirit, but many different Christians. Some filled with it a bunch, some not so filled. Some Christians (or so they would like to think) really don't want the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are like you and like the Baptists you pointed at the beginning of this string, they want to believe what they want to believe, whether it's the truth or not. Sounds familiar huh?

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

MoonCat

02-03-00, 05:35 PM

Thank you Tab!

truestory

02-03-00, 05:54 PM

MoonCat,

Are you going to answer my question? It addressed unconditional love.

You were willing to jump on the subject vehemently before in an attempt to convince others that God does not love unconditionally under the premise that you knew what unconditional love was and that if God loved unconditionally, He would have done things differently... So, how do you show unconditional love to your child in this case, MoonCat?

truestory

02-03-00, 06:13 PM

tab'

Why don't you take a stab at answering? You also claim to know more about unconditional love than God... So, how would you show unconditional love to your daughter in that case?

truestory

02-03-00, 06:25 PM

Flash,

TS,

So you are saying if a person was only willing to submit to God out fear of going to hell that the relationship would be bogus?

What I said was that if a person's acceptance of "God's loving gift of salvation" was not motivated by "love of God" then they would not be saved.

Good girl, TS! I must say..I agree with you all the way!

Just wanted to make sure that you understood what I was actually saying... I am glad if you agree.

So then..I have a question... why in the bible does Jesus and his followers warn people alllll the time about hell?

Well, Flash, the "truth" is that Jesus informed people about hell... not "alllll the time" as you falsely claim.

Why isn't there more love preached and less hell?

Well, again, Flash... as Lori already explained to you, the "truth" is that is exactly what Jesus did... He taught us more about love and less about hell.

MoonCat

02-03-00, 06:48 PM

Truestory~

And what question might that be? I read back three pages in this thread and don't see anything. I do recall some analogy days ago about a drug addict kid, or something, but I don't even remember if that was this thread or not. Are we going back over that again? Maybe you can repost your question.

If you wanted me to answer a question, why didn't you say something when it was still being discussed? Or is it because I've nailed you on another thread for not ansering my questions??

truestory

02-03-00, 07:08 PM

MoonCat,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by truestory:
MoonCat,
My question to you is this... although you love your daughter unconditionally, would you allow her into your home, "exactly" the way she was behaving, unconditionally, for an indefinite period? Or, would you discuss with her the need for her to modify her bahavior at home before she moved back in? Or, would you suggest that she go and live with your parents? Another alternative?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you show unconditional love for your daughter in this situation, MoonCat?

Tony H2o

02-03-00, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by truestory:
Hi Tony,

Among other things, my thoughts lie with your last statement which seems to indicate that salvation is a way "out." I see salvation as a way for God and mankind to enter into a mutually loving relationship.

I see the offer and acceptance of salvation as the bond of the relationship based on mutual pure love and I believe that is what God's great kingdom of heaven is all about... "pure love." If one were motivated to accept salvation purely as a way out... a means to "escape" hell, for example... rather than accepting the gift of love from God because one loves God in return, then since they were motivated by fear rather than love, I do not see them entering into a mutually loving relationship with God. Therefore, the relationship needed to enter heaven would not exist.

What say ye?

Yep, salvation is a way out, the road to heaven is narrow and few find it but the road to hell is wide and many follow it.

But don't throw me into the right wing turn or burn mentality, that's a consequence of sin and not an only reason to respond to God's unfailing love. I may lean towards showing the consequences of sin in what I say a bit but that's because I've traveled the hell fire and brimestone road fast and hard and I now know the road to life. Good to see you checking me on this one TS.

Tell me TS how do you see people getting motivated to love God? A mutual love? You respond to God's love because God loves you? Hey seriously some people here don't even believe in God like we do let alone His great gift of love. So how do they come to know and respond to God's love?

You state: [I see the offer and acceptance of salvation as the bond of the relationship based on mutual pure love and I believe that is what God's great kingdom of heaven is all about... "pure love."]

Jesus spoke many parrables about the Kingdom and they covered many different way that people respond to God, from the mustard seed that grows to a great tree to the casting of the net and hauling in a great catch to the King who gave the servants talents to who ever is least will be greatest to strong men taking it by force and many, many more. These spoke to people in all different situation, it spoke to them where thay were at. Some times it refered to God's love, other times it spoke of God's judgement, other times it spoke of the consequence of sin. Jesus addressed each person where they were at, for some like me it took a big wake up call, for others to respond it takes a simple prompt. But through it all regardless of whether its initiated through fear or love or guilt or suffering or whatever my opinion is that the Lord was trying to get the message across about the length, depth and width of the Fathers love. Different people react to God in different ways and God moves different people in different ways to respond to Him. Jesus knew this, He knows that Mooncat will respond a different way to Flash who will respond a different way to Lori who will respond a different way to you who reponded a different way to me. But underpinning this all is the basic truth that God loves us and has given His all for us, only God knows what we need to prompt us and make us respond to that truth. For some fear, for some a simple realisation of that truth, for others a Mack truck. Grace for some, gentleness for others, and a Mack truck for me, but at the end of the day I now know His unfailing love. Before the Mack truck I didn't.

This is what I say and thankyou for asking.

Take care - H2o

Searcher

02-04-00, 12:43 AM

Tony,

Esau sold his birthright or salvation for the craving of his body. Esau turned his back on the promise that was to be handed down to him. A promise of salvation made to Abraham as Gods friend that was to be passed from generation to generation. In other words Esau rejected his salvation and gave it away for a meal, Jacob stepped in and claimed the great promise that Esau toyed with.

Gave it away for a meal? Jacob stepped in and claimed the great promise that Esau toyed with? Okay, let's take a look-see, shall we? Please turn to Genesis 25:29-34:

29 And Jacob sod pottage: adn Esau came from the field, and he was faint:

30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

That Jacob was a real humanitarian, wasn't he? Poor Esau drags himself in, ready to pass out from hunger, begging his brother for some food in order to sustain his life, and Jacob agrees to feed him only if he will sell him his birthright. Touching, yes? But apparently this is admirable behavior in the eyes of your God?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Flash

02-04-00, 03:58 AM

Lori,
One holy spirit ..yet many different christians, huh? So the holy spirit only gives so much to certain people according to how "willing" they are to receive? hmmmmmm...
There may be may different christains...but the truth should be the same!

------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Flash

02-04-00, 04:11 AM

TS,
oh..I see..... :rolleyes:

------------------
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
..........Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Tony H2o

02-04-00, 06:18 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Searcher:
[B]Tony,

Gave it away for a meal? Jacob stepped in and claimed the great promise that Esau toyed with? Okay, let's take a look-see, shall we? Please turn to Genesis 25:29-34:

29 And Jacob sod pottage: adn Esau came from the field, and he was faint:

30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

That Jacob was a real humanitarian, wasn't he? Poor Esau drags himself in, ready to pass out from hunger, begging his brother for some food in order to sustain his life, and Jacob agrees to feed him only if he will sell him his birthright. Touching, yes? But apparently this is admirable behavior in the eyes of your God?

Hey Searcher, being a humanitarian is looking out for and providing for people who are placed into situations beyond their own control.

Esau was the twit who chasing after the things he desired to do was to lazy to pack lunch. He then comes marching in expecting his brother to wait on him and meet his needs, even worse he is willing to part with a promise of a great inheritance for a belly full of food, and get this "Because he was faint". Come on Searcher if he was starving after being lost in the bush for a week well yeah then I could see where your coming from. Or if he was unable in some way beyond his control to provide food for himself or take care of himself then I would get it. And yes I would think exactly the same way you are. There are real charity cases and there are people who think they have the right to be a charity case because they are lazy or self serving. Esau wasn't in need of charity or a humanitarian act, he had the facilities and provisions available to him not to be. He chose not to use them and even worse he valued his inheritance so little that he was willing to part with it for a bowl of stew when he was only faint

Touching for God don't you think that someone would value such a promise and gift so lightly that they would give it away for a bowl of stew, when they are only faint?

Hey I tip my hat to Jacob for being wise enough to realise that Esau would only squander the inheritance.

Also it show that Esau was a manipulator>

30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am "faint": therefore was his name called Edom.

Esau went from faint:
05889 Pye ` ayeph aw-yafe'
from 05888; TWOT-1614a; adj
AV-weary 8, faint 6, thirsty 3; 17

32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to "die": and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

All the way to the point of death in two sentences?

04191 twm muwth mooth
a primitive root; TWOT-1169; v
AV-die 424, dead 130, slay 100, death 83, surely 50, kill 31, dead man 3, dead body.

Qal
Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the
"simple" or "causal" action of the root in the active voice.

And when you look at the mood and the verb used originally it shows a casual or simple meaning to the word which essentially means that he was not going to drop dead from starvation but was exaggerating his condition in an effort to get something he wanted.

Kind of like a kid wanting a candy bar when your shopping because they are "starving hungry". The same mood the same meaning, and don't those little sucker kick up a stink if they don't get one.

H2o

Lori

02-04-00, 10:31 AM

Flash,

Quit being so purposefully dense please. The fact is, and logical at that, that there only is one truth. Not everyone wants to know what it is for different reasons, and yes, some of those people go to church. *shrug*

What's do difficult about that? It's reality, take a look, it's true.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

MoonCat

02-04-00, 11:56 AM

Truestory~

Yes, I would take this theoretical child back into my home. I birthed her, she is my responsibility, no matter how old she is. If she is having a hard time in her life, me turning my back on her just because she's breaking a few of my rules would make for poor parenting, in my opinion. If I was afraid she'd steal from me, I might go so far as to hide valuables, but I would feel terrible doing something like that. I can't imagine owning a single material thing that would be more important to me than my child, even a grown up one hooked on drugs.

Once the child was under my roof, I could begin to try to help her. First thing I'd do is listen to her. Do my best to understand where she is in her life, where she thinks she went wrong, if she does think she did. Since she's coming back home to live with "mommy" she's probably going to admit that things aren't the way she wants them to be. From there I could offer assistance, whatever I had to give her. Hopefully, this would help her to be able to help herself. I wouldn't do everything for her, but I would do my best to make sure she had the tools she needed to help herself.

When it comes to family, your own flesh and blood, pride, rules and other such must be secondary to giving care and love to them if they need you. At least in my opinion.

I actually have a very recent example of a similar situation -
My husbands grandfather passed away a week ago. One of his sons (my uncle-in-law) has had emotional troubles his whole life long. He struggles with drugs and insanity constantly. He goes in and out of treatment, and is really doing very well for himself if he can hang onto a job for more than 6 months without being fired. Yet I believe he does try. The family has warned me over and over, "never leave John alone in your house" (not his real name), "don't leave valuables out where John can see them, he's a thief and a liar". Nice, huh?

Well, John came over to say hello one day about 2 years ago, he was fresh out of treatment, not yet employed and bored, and thought my husband would be home. It was just me. I had never actually met him before, but I recognized him (strong family resemblance) and knew who he was. Honestly, I was intimidated by him. He's about 6.5 feet tall, very muscular, and with all the horror stories I'd heard about him, I didn't really want to let him inside. But I knew my hubby would be home in about a half hour, so I did anyway, despite what I'd heard about him. For a half hour we sat on the couch and talked. I couldn't find anything wrong with this guy. He was funny, and relatively smart. When the phone rang, I thought nothing of leaving him alone in the livingroom.

Later, the next day, I went to pay for my morning coffee, and noticed all the cash in my wallet was gone. About 75 bucks was missing. Sigh, what was I going to do about that?

Few weeks later, it's a family potluck, and sure enough John was there. He avoided my eyes all night long. I knew he did it, I could tell by how ashamed he was to come talk to me. So I didn't say anything. I was nice to him, probably nicer than anyone else in the family was that night.

About 2 days after the potluck, John stops by again. I let him in without commenting on the missing money. He sat down, we started chatting about nothing. He reaches into his pocket and takes out a twenty. "I'm very sorry, I stole money from you. I just wanted to tell you I'm going to pay you back every penny. I have a job now, and you'll get it all back." His face was beet red. I accepted the bill, said nothing but "thank you", and changed the subject. I felt no need to embarass him further. Every 2 weeks, on his payday, he would give me a 20 dollar bill. He paid me back a total of 80 dollars, and would not take back the extra five bucks.

Back to present-day, now that Grandpa has passed away, the family is in the process of distributing all of his belongings. Uncle John has been helping move furniture and the like, but still nobody in that family really will give him the time of day. One night last week, someone broke into Grandpa's house and ransacked it, apparently looking for money or something. Everyone blamed uncle John. Nobody would even talk to him. He came to me and told me he did not do it, but nobody would let him even defend himself. I believed him. I knew the ernestness on that face. I talked to my mother in law, who is the executor of the estate. She finally talked to the neighbors at my request, who said they saw kids sneaking around the day it happened. Nobody had seen John's truck that day, either.

So what would have happened if they had never discovered John was innocent? Poor John, he IS trying, but nobody would give him a chance. What kind of encouragement would that be for him? He tries, and is doing well, but everyone still treats him like he's a worthless junkie.

I think the moral of the story is that sometimes you have to ignore your suspicions and give someone a chance, even if they could easily stab you in the back. If it's someone you truley care about, that risk is worth taking. It could mean something to someone, it could make a huge difference in someones life. I like to think I helped John a little bit. Maybe I helped him see that people will be willing to give him a second chance, once they get over their own suspicions and distrust. Hopefully, he will continue to earn the trust of everyone in the family, which would certainally help keep him away from the drugs.

tablariddim

02-04-00, 12:37 PM

Truestory,
I have answered you already, but here's a part of it again.

originally posted by tab...

The main influences in a young child usually come from its parents and the strongest influences on the psyche occur before the child is 3 years old. So it would be fair to say that if a child turns out to be rotten, then some if not most of the blame must definetly lie with the parents, as most of us already suspect. You understand what I'm getting at?

... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

I'm suggesting that if there indeed is a God, then he is also to blame for the sinner rejecting him.
The same as I would if Moons daughter rejected her parents, I would lay some of the blame on her and her husband (sorry for using your name in vain Moon', it's just for the analogy).

Being only human and not necessarily recognizing our own subtle faults, I think some of us would not allow the child back into the home unless they conformed to our level of civilised behaviour.
But I also think that some of us would do our upmost to help our child, with love!
We could go to them, we could try talking and find out why they hate us so much, we could try to arrange psychological treatments for them, we could try bribing them, we could try any reasonable thing, IF WE LOVE OUR CHILD!

So, if God exists I think he should make like Avis and try harder!

http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

truestory

02-04-00, 01:02 PM

Flash,

Your response above:

TS,
oh..I see..... :rolleyes:

What does that mean?

Flash

02-04-00, 01:12 PM

TS,
It was in response to this:

Well, again, Flash... as Lori already explained to you, the "truth" is that is exactly what Jesus did... He taught us more about love and less about hell

truestory

02-04-00, 01:22 PM

MoonCat,

A number of times now, I have asked how you would show your daughter unconditional love in the case below.

Your first response was to say something to the effect that your daughter was a cat. Your second response referenced a different post which had been discussed earlier concerning a child on drugs. Please try to respond to the following (this child is not on drugs):

MoonCat,
Please, let me ask you this...

Supposing, given what you and/or your husband know about physical violence in the home, you and he decide that the home which you are going to make for yourselves and your family will be one of non-violence, filled with love and respect for everyone.

Now, supposing you and your husband had a daughter that you loved dearly (let's make that "unconditionally") and you continued to live in your home under the same moral principles and continued in your practice of witchcraft in your home while the child was growing up. Over the years she had a tendency to be a very unruly child and prone to violence and over the years you had become very involved and dedicated to your religious beliefs and pagan practices which is what you were sure was helping you cope with this child. One day, shortly after your daughter had turned eighteen, she flew into a rage which was directed at you, your lifestyle, your insistance on your goody-two-shoes non-violence and your other moral and spiritual beliefs. After attacking you both verbally and physically, she moved out abruptly.

Now, supposing that for the next four years, contrary to everything you hold dear, morally and spiritually, and despite the fact that you did NOT force your spiritaul beliefs on her, this child despised you, your morals and your spiritual ways... once this child grew up, everytime she mentioned you to someone (one of her friends, another member of your family, acquaintances or strangers), she spoke extremely disrespectfully about you in a mocking, spiteful and contemptuous manner. Now, let's also suppose that everytime she came to visit you in your home for the next few years, to your face, she incessantly called you the "Wicked Witch of the West" in a vile and hateful tone. When your eyes met hers, all you could see was contempt. If you dared to look at her or open your mouth to her, despite your insistance on non-violence in the home, she would scream "What are you lookin' at?!" or "Who said you could talk to me?!" and she would proceed to smack you and dare you to smack her back. Additionally, everytime she came to visit you, she would rummage through your house, destroying anything which reminded her of your practice of witchcraft... whether it be scented candles or whatever... You considered placing a spell on her to help her, however, you could not do that without her permission (which she would NEVER give you) so, although you "know" that you tried your best and did everything that you possibly could do for her when she was growing up, at this point, you felt that your hands were virtually tied. She refused your help. You considered calling the police on her when she beat you and ransacked your home, but you could not bring yourself to do that, because you believed that this would be too controlling and against the concept of unconditional love. There was nothing you could do for her. She wouldn't listen to you or anyone else unless they believed exactly the way that she did. She was going to do things her way because she knew better.

As far as her grandparents went (your parents), she loved them deeply becuse she felt a connection with them. When she got violent around them, since they too lived this way, they accepted her behavior without objection and it made her feel more welcomed in their home than she felt in yours. In her mind, she "got along" with them just fine and it was you that she "hated".

Now, although you were glad that your daughter felt some sort of connection with your parents, although you could see that she had the capacity to get along with some others (under her terms), and although you continued to love her unconditionally because she is your daughter, her behavior towards you was contrary to the loving ways which you taught her when she was growing up in your home and it hurt you very deeply to see her this way. You expressed your feelings to your daughter and she laughed in your face.

The verbal abuse, beatings and house ransackings went on for four years because each time she showed up at your door, you welcomed her with opened arms in the hopes that this time it might be "different." When she turned twenty-two, although she was still exhibiting the same type of violent and contemptuous behavior towards you everytime she came to visit, one day, she came to you and your husband and "told you" that she was moving back in with you because she had lost her job.

My question to you is this... although you love your daughter unconditionally, would you allow her into your home, "exactly" the way she was behaving, unconditionally, for an indefinite period? Or, would you discuss with her the need for her to modify her bahavior at home before she moved back in? Or, would you suggest that she go and live with your parents? Another alternative?

Again... how would you show your daughter unconditional love in this case?

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 04, 2000).]

truestory

02-04-00, 01:25 PM

Thanks, Flash,

Could you please tell me what the response "meant"?

truestory

02-04-00, 01:40 PM

Thanks, tab'

Yes, I see what you are getting at. However, I do not necessarily agree... The nature vs nurture debate has been raging on for quite some time now... Yes, there are many who will ALWAYS blame the parents. However, there have also been millions of documented cases of multiple children growing up in the same home, under the same nurturing conditions who turn out very differently.

I appreciate your general response, however, what I am really looking for is a personal answer from you regarding the situation which I posed to MoonCat and reposted above. So far, neither one of you has said how you, personally would show unconditional love in such a case. With the conditions as described, would YOU allow your daughter to move into your home exactly the way she was at the time or would you choose another alternative? If you choose another alternative, it would be appreciated if you would state the alternative and the reasons for it. If you don't want to respond in a personal manner, that's fine. Please just say so.

Flash

02-04-00, 01:49 PM

TS,
You know how I feel about Jesus, right? Well...that description is just..well ..so wrong. That's all I meant by that.

truestory

02-04-00, 02:06 PM

Flash,

How is it wrong? The truth of this matter has nothing to do with your feelings, Flash. The truth has to do with the facts.

You asked why Jesus did not preach more about love and less about hell. The fact is, the "truth" is, He did.

Other than your "feelings," which are being deceptively influenced, why do you think it is wrong? Have you gone through every line of the gospels of Jesus and put each in either the "love column" or the "hell column"?

If you did, you would see the truth for yourself.

tablariddim

02-04-00, 02:14 PM

TS,
to be perfectly honest, since I don't have any children I don't feel I'm qualified to answer that question personally and truthfully.
But I have stated two general choices the parent could take. The way I feel now, is that I would take the second choice, however I know that reality and experience can be a very sobering experience and it may be within me to take the first choice but I honestly don't know.

... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

------------------
"The crows are already stoned", he said.
With a look of dispassion on his sad face.

truestory

02-04-00, 02:41 PM

Thanks for the honest answer tab.

I believe that the second choice is a very reasonable one. Not that it makes that much difference, but having had five children grow up in my home, I do speak from experience. Although the circumstances were not as extreme as the ones outlined (thank God) I can relate to having to make difficult decisions concerning the welfare of your children and the family as a whole.

You still love your child unconditionally, however, in order for you and your family to live together in the same household in the spirit of love and peace, there are certain behaviors which your adult child would need to modify on their own, with your help if needed, as a condition of living in your home. The placing of such conditions does not mean that you love her any less.

Although you still love your child unconditionally, allowing her to move into your home without her "ridding herself" of certain behavior so to speak, would only serve to subject you and the rest of your family to abuse, violence, chaos and pain in a home seething with hatred - your home would become a living hell.

This situation is no different than God's unconditional love for us and the sin-free state which we need to be in, with His help, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

PS - to extend the analogy a little further... if your daughter refuses to modify her behavior and you therefore cannot allow her to move in with you because your home would be turned into a living hell, she has the option of going to her grandparents' home where others live and accept the same abusive, violent, chaotic and hateful behavior (analagous to hell).

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 04, 2000).]

Lori

02-04-00, 02:55 PM

Wow, I just read over Tony's description of Esau and discovered that I'm married to him! God helps those who help themselves. I help those who help themselves. But for someone who is just looking for something for nothing, a free ride if you will, well then I have a tendency to throw all of their shit out the front door and them along with it. And that's just what I did. Hmmm...Esau's make bad husbands. And do I hate my husband? No. Why? Cause he's a child of God just like me. Am I going to give him any mercy? No. Why? Because he doesn't care about me, all he wants is to use me for his own laziness, selfishness, and gain. Just because you love someone doesn't mean that you have to take their abuse. The problem with my husband is that he's spoiled rotten. As a child, as a teenager, a young man, his parents catered to his every whim, and allowed him to do things that have virtually destroyed him. Like dropping out of high school, doing a bunch of drinking and drugs, and I mean the good stuff like LSD and shit, no light weight stuff here. They've always been his little cheerleaders, saying that the problem was with the teachers and admin at the school, or the problem when he had quit his 19th job was his boss AGAIN, and don't ya know the problem with his marriage is ALL ME. So, do you think that his parents are helping him or hurting him? He's there now living in their basement, eating their food, letting them pay for the roof over his head, all the utilities, just like he's a little boy again. They cook for him, do his laundry, clean up after him. They ignore the fact that he smokes his shit in their house. They ignore everything he does that they know they should say something about. If they do ever say anything, then he throws a temper tantrum, I swear, like a 5 year old child, and so they say "ok, honey, whatever you want", just so he'll quit being an asshole. So what I want to know from all of those who think it's just terrible that God gave little mercy to Esau, if you think that my husband's parents have done him a favor by being so merciful towards him, or have they actually harmed him? Well, he's a 28 year old man whose living in his parents basement, no marriage, no kids, an $8 an hour dead end job that he just started after being out of work since who knows, and that he will surely find some reason to quit or get fired from shortly. I'd say they've actually harmed him very very much.

Do I love him? Yes.
Do I pity him? Yes.
Am I going to perpetuate the very problems that are cause of his own demise by showing him underserved or unappreciated mercy? No.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

truestory

02-04-00, 03:14 PM

Lori,

God bless you, woman!

I have to agree with you, based on what you described, your husband's parents are not helping him one bit.

The greatest and most loving service that they could do for him would be to require that he become responsible for himself - even if it means that he has to suffer the consequences of his own actions or inactions.

I am praying that God give him and both his parents the strength to be able to live in right relationships through love.

Flash

02-04-00, 03:24 PM

TS,

Other than your "feelings," which are being deceptively influenced, why do you think it is wrong? Have you gone through every line of the gospels of Jesus and put each in either the "love column" or the "hell column"?
Ok, I see your point....BUT, you find your answers in the bible, something which isn't 100% correct.....I find my answers from another source. So it isn't totally based on my "feelings". Plus, I'd like to add..they are not being deceptively influenced.

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited February 04, 2000).]

Lori

02-04-00, 03:30 PM

Thanks, TS. I appreciate that a lot. This is the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. See, when he and I got married, he just expected me to take over where his parents left off. I make a lot of money, even though I hate my job, and I'm a very strong and capable person. He lied to me (though I let him in my naivety) when we were dating, telling me all about his ambitions and how responsible he was, and how he wanted to turn his life around, and he wanted to be my husband cause he loved me, and that he wanted kids, a house in the country just like me, and oh yea, about how moral he is. He didn't mention that he expected me to pay for all of it while he laid on my couch getting high and watching Jerry Springer and Howard Stern and the Man Show. I finally threw him out when I found that while I was laying in bed by myself every night crying because I was so alone, that he was downstairs looking at other women (porno) on the net. That's it, you know? That was my line in the sand so to speak. Now I'm the bad guy so says he. Well, so be it then. I just hope to God that he doesn't ever do this to anyone else. It's bad, really, really bad. I feel like the biggest fool on earth, and that hurts so bad.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

truestory

02-04-00, 03:52 PM

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the response. I was just curious as to how you saw this. It seems that we actually agree... at least, I have to agree with you that the initial "wake up call" from God might come for various reasons for different people in the beginning... and then the mutually loving relationship would "develop."

Taking your own experiences into consideration... do you now accept God's great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ solely because it is a way out of a previous lifestyle, or is it because you now love God who delivered you from such a lifestyle and you accept his great and loving gift of eternal salvation because you love Him and want to be with Him for all eternity?

(Hope I'm not getting too personal)

Thanks again.

truestory

02-04-00, 04:16 PM

Flash,

Think a little bit more about what you are saying, please.

You asked why Jesus didn't teach more about love than hell. Now, the source of Jesus' teachings is the Bible. Therefore, that is the only place to look to see for "yourself" whether or not Jesus taught more about love or hell.

To say that Jesus taught more about hell than love without going to the source of His teachings and basing such a statement on your feelings or on what someone or something else is erroneously telling you is a big mistake, since the truth is there for you to "see" for yourself.

What other source can tell you whether Jesus taught more about love or more about hell? There is none. In this particular case, you can see the truth for yourself by actually looking to His gospels that are available for your reference in the Bible.

Does this make sense to you?

Flash

02-04-00, 04:29 PM

TS,
Yes..it does make sense...BUT, like I said before..the bible is not 100% correct. So what I rely on is my source to tell me things I need to know. It's really quite simple...truth usually is ;)

truestory

02-04-00, 04:33 PM

Lori,

I am very sorry that you went through that. You are right. It was an extremely disrespectful and selfish way to behave.

From what I understand, you are still married? Do you have any dialogue going on with your husband now?

If he were to mature and grow as a person, and if both of you were to mature and grow as a couple, would you consider getting back together with him?

truestory

02-04-00, 04:37 PM

Flash,

You have another source that has other documented teachings of Jesus Christ in which He mostly teaches about hell?

Flash

02-04-00, 04:40 PM

TS,
I have a source...do you really think something has to be documented for it to be true?

truestory

02-04-00, 04:50 PM

O.K., Flash,

What was it then, that this source "told" you that leads you to ask the question why didn't Jesus teach more about love than hell?

For example, did this source simply say, "Flash. Let me tell you the truth. Jesus taught more about hell than he did about love." And, you said, "O.K. I believe you."???

MoonCat

02-04-00, 04:52 PM

Interesting, truestory, I don't ever recall seing your original post! Sorry for the confusion, I had no idea what the heck you were talking about. (see, no need to be rude about it.)

Okay, well, your analogy is interesting, but I'd like to point one thing out - I WOULD call the cops if my child, or anyone for that matter, was behaving violently in my home. I cannot, will not and should not deal with that kind of behavior. I will not raise my hands in violence, except in self defense, nor will I tolerate anyone else raising their hands to me or anyone under my care. If this child is indeed 18, she best make sure she controls herself in my presence, or she'll find herself cooling her jets in lockdown.

There also seems to be an implication in there that I would have been somehow ignoring my child's growth due to my overwhelming desire to wrap myself in my pagan ways. Of course, this would not be the case, and I wouldn't wait until she was 18 to do something about her!

Now, the mocking, spitefulness, etc...that I would just wait on. I wouldn't like it, that's for sure, but I could be tolerant and turn the other cheek. If her friends decided not to like me based on her assertions...well, who cares? If they know this spiteful little person who is my daughter very well, they'll probably already know she has some kind of emotional problem going on.

I wouldn't just sit on my hands, as I said, the whole time she's growing up into this little monster. I would have her checked out, medically, psychologically...etc. I would also allow her any kind of spiritual expression she wished, if she decided Christianity was right for her, I would support her 100%. I wouldn't change my ways, but I would demonstrate tolerance by allowing her to choose her own path in life, and would even go so far as to attend church with her if I thought this would somehow help her with this problem. She would have to understand, however, that I was there solely to support her, I would not lead her on somehow and allow her to think she could 'convert' me or something when that wasn't the case.

Now, if she's tromping through my house, destroying everything in sight, do I let her in anymore? Nope, I'd meet her on neutral ground if she wanted to visit with me. An ouce of prevention... Once I trusted her again, once we had reached SOME kind of agreement, of course she would be welcomed back.

If she choose to live with my parents instead of me, I wouldn't stand in the way. Perhaps watching the throes of anger they go through almost daily would make her think twice about the choices she makes. It made me decide that violence was unacceptable, so perhaps it would have the same effect on her. And if she ever wished to return to my home, she could, assuming she had mended her ways. Whether she was 22 or 42.

Now, if she comes marching up to my door and announces she's moving in, and has not changed her ways, I would not allow it. By this time she would be well aware of what my expectations are, and she knows she has an open, non-expiring invitation to join us if she can behave in a non-violent manner. If the violence and ransacking was gone, but the insults were still there, I'd probably still allow her to live with me if she was desperate. I would "grin and bear it", and hopefully she would eventually come to grips with herself. I imagine there would eventually be a breaking point, I'm not a saint and could only put up with such behavior for a limited amount of time. Long enough, hopefully, for her to get a job.

Okay, so having said all of that, I know what your point is. You are, of course, using this brat as an example of a "sinner", my parents are "satan", and I am "god". My house is "heaven". Right? Okay, so let me point out a big difference. If my little sinner visited hell and saw the error of her ways, she would always, always, always be allowed to leave hell and come live with me in heaven. ALWAYS. Period.

Lori

02-04-00, 05:09 PM

TS,

Yes Flash does have another source, and they are demons, though she refuses to see that. It's so obvious, based on the "truth" that they tell her, yes? (Sorry Flash buddy, you know me, I couldn't help but butt in).

We are still married, but separated for about 6 months now. Since the separation, I have practically begged to go to counseling, which he went to ONE session with me, and then refused to go back. I've wanted to talk about "issues", he wants to talk about the weather. I've read books on relationships, he's said, and get ready because this is just profound ok, "What good's a book gonna do me?" Basically, he wants me to forget all the problems that he's caused, take all the blame myself, not address any issues, and just let him move back in as if nothing happened, so that he can relax, and I can pay all of his bills again while he lays around like some bum. So, the last time we talked, I asked him if he wanted a divorce. He said yes. I said ok, I'll not only get the dissolution packet, I'll pay for the whole thing, if that is what YOU want. He knows that is NOT what I want. He doesn't care what I want, never has, and never will. I don't see how I have a choice. Wives submit to their husbands, right? Right. So, if by some God given miracle (which is EXACTLY what it would take) he decided that he wanted to try, to make an honest effort, then I would definately spend the rest of my life trying WITH him. It is not his actions that I care about. Honestly, I couldn't care less how much money he makes, or how capable he actually is, what I care about are his intentions. I don't need money or anything material to make me happy. I need good and honest and loving intentions, which is what he lacks, along with self-confidence. The ball is definately in his court, and I'm buying the dissolution packet this weekend. Being the child of divorced parents, and how badly that affected me, and how angry I was at them for it, this is the LAST thing in the world that I want.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

truestory

02-04-00, 06:00 PM

MoonCat,

Since you had indicated that you had searched through the pages of posts in this thread, and since tab and I had bboth reposted part of it before I reposted the whole thing again, was it not "reasonable" for me to conclude that you had seen the post? Regardless, I do not perceive my request as being "rude" (especially compared to some of the comments which you have posted in this thread which I have chosen not to respond to)... Under the circumstances, I am very surprised and sorry that you perceive my request as rude... really!!! and thank you for responding.

For the most part, I like your answer and I think that you would make a very good parent if you ever choose that path. As a matter of fact, your ways are very much in line with God's... stern in a way, being intolerant of certain behavior, but also very loving and fair.

Although you rejected the notion previously, I see that you do truly understand the concept of being able to love your child unconditionally even in separation due to conditions placed on behavior in the home.

Like God does for heaven, you set standards for living in your home and you set reasonable limits. One of the limits that God chose to set, which you seem to have a big problem with, is that we must consciously decide in "this life" whether or not to be with Him for all eternity or not.

Unlike the temporary homes which we prepare in this lifetime, God is preparing an "eternal" home for us. You might not like it or understand God's ways or reasons, just as your child might not like or understand your ways or reasons, however, like you have taught your daughter, God has taught us well and has given us all the information we need to consciously choose the path needed to be with Him. He has also given us the reasoning abilities needed to understand His ways and the free-will to choose otherwise, if we so desire.

Now, in a way, the same eternal condition would be true for your daughter in her relationship with you. Her decision to behave in a way that would be acceptable for you to allow her in your home at any given time would have to be made in "this lifetime." Once she is dead, there is no turning back into your home.

Likewise, once someone dies in this life, they have already chosen their "eternal" path. Whatever has happened in the past, we cannot change. The ONE thing we can do is to prepare for our "eternal" life everafter. Just as your daughter's rejection of you by way of her intolerable behavior until her death would keep her out of your home for all eternity, so does our rejection of God until our death keep us out of heaven for all eternity.

God's sin-free standard might seem pretty high to you, but if you think about it, God has offered a loving, fair and easy way to accomplish it... We simply have to accept His gift of salvation.

truestory

02-04-00, 07:07 PM

O.K., Lori, here goes...

Please forgive me but, I have to confess, I got a good laugh out of this (at the expense of both of us) because believe me, I've been there:

I've wanted to talk about "issues", he wants to talk about the weather.

You really do crack me up sometimes!!! Hey, whatever happens, please try to remember to keep your sense of humor, O.K.???

But seriously, if dissolution is really NOT what you truly want, then you might want to reconsider.

If you truly love him and it's more a matter that he is immature and self-centered, then there is probably hope in the long-run. Believe me, I have seen "miracles" happen in situations where that is the case. It doesn't happen overnight though... It can take many years...

Have you considered just trying to keep dialogue going for now? Maybe meeting him for coffee once a week to start? Maybe drop the issues for a while... If he prefers to talk about the weather at first, then why not talk about the weather for a while? See if you can trust each other with the little things first?

After a while, if you both become more comfortable and not so angry with each other, you might be able to start meeting twice a week... maybe even eventually discussing the issues in a less-threatening atmosphere.

If he lacks self-confidence, and you still love him, you might be able to look for clues of things which you could compliment him on "sincerely" to help build his self-esteem. If he has difficulty making decisions, you could discuss "other people's" problems and ask him what he might do in the same situation.

If you did decide to go this route and he doesn't have self-confidence to begin with, it doesn't matter what his answer is, it's best not to criticize him in the least - no matter how immature his answer might sound. If you would approach a problem differently, sharing your solution in a matter-of-fact, non-threatening manner helps to build trust.

Please forgive me if I sound like I'm butting in. That's really not my intention... I just wanted to throw some food for thought out there since you sound like you're getting ready to do something that you say you really don't want to do.

If I have offended you in any way, please accept my apology and let me know to butt out... On the other hand, if you would like to continue this discussion by e-mail, rather than on this board, let me know and I'll contact you soon.

Anyway, I'll continue to pray for God's will concerning your marriage.

Peace and love!

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 04, 2000).]

MoonCat

02-04-00, 07:18 PM

True'-

But, I am not an all-powerful being. I don't have eternity to wait. If I did, I would wait for eternity for the chance to be with my child again. I would not simply create a deadline (straighten up by the time you're 25 or don't darken my doorway again) and stick to it at all costs, I would just continue to wait. THAT is unconditional love, at least in my opinion.

Searcher

02-04-00, 11:55 PM

Tony,

According to Genesis 25:27, Esau was "a cunning hunter, a man of the field". Verse 29 states that he came in from the field, so by that, I assume he had been out on a hunt. The fact that he was starving tells me he was probably unsuccessful in his endeavor. As a person with hypoglycemia, I can tell you that the kind of hunger that makes you weak enough to feel like you are going to pass out is a truly horrible thing. But since neither of us was there, I don't think either of us is qualified to make a judgment based only on the information contained in those few verses.

But to get an idea of whether or not Jacob was a devious person, let's skip ahead to Genesis, Chapter 27. If you recall from Genesis 25:28, the twins' father, Isaac, loved Esau the best and their mother, Rebekah, loved Jacob. Now I don't want to reprint chapter 27 in its entirety, but let me try to summarize it for you here: Isaac, who by this time was old and blind, sent his son Esau out to hunt deer so he could have some venison (apparently his favorite food), promising to give Esau his blessing upon his return. Rebekah overheard this conversation, and after Esau left, she persuaded Jacob to kill two goat kids and pass them off as the venison Isaac had requested of his eldest son. She dressed him in his brother's clothes and even put the kid skins on his hands to simulate the hairiness of his brother. The deception worked as planned, and Isaac gave Jacob the blessing that was intended for Esau.

Now, although it was Rebekah's idea, Jacob was willing enough to go along with it, and was only concerned about being discovered by his father. When Rebekah assured him that any curse Isaac put on him if he saw through the charade would be absorbed by her, Jacob was happy to play along.

Do you still think Jacob was the fair haired boy while his brother was nothing but a lazy lout?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Flash

02-05-00, 10:53 AM

TS,

For example, did this source simply say, "Flash. Let me tell you the truth. Jesus taught more about hell than he did about love." And, you said, "O.K. I believe you."???
Not in those exact words....it is more along the lines of Jesus and his TRUE intentions.

Of course I believe the Spirit of Truth! I have no reason not to.

truestory

02-05-00, 01:40 PM

Flash,

Your question did not address Jesus' "intentions". It addressed his words and actions (from which, by the way, we can reasonably judge His intentions for ourselves). Your question asked why He "preached" more about hell than about love.

When a couple of people pointed out to you that He, in fact, taught more about love and less about hell, you rolled your eyes.

Now, where is there any evidence for you to support your claim that Jesus "preached" more about hell and less about love? There is none.

To tell you the truth, Flash, discussion with you is becoming exceedingly tedious. Due to lack of any supporting information whatsoever, your comments and responses are coming across as juvenile. I'm sure that's not how you really are and I would love to be able to discuss things with you if you want, but you will have to provide information in order for others to be able to make sense out of what you are saying. If you can't do that, then you might consider keeping your comments to yourself until you can support them with information. As your friend, I am telling you that right now, you are looking very foolish.

In that light, I have a request and - if you are willing - I'm sure it would help to shed some light in your discussion with others on this board. Are you willing to start documenting the information which is being given to you by your source and sharing it with us so that we can understand better how you are arriving at what you call the truth? For example, when your source speaks to you, can you write down what was said and share it with us?

Flash

02-05-00, 02:59 PM

TS,
Ah, again another OUCH! Look, I do appreciate your honesty..and I can see where you are coming from. I realize that I have only disclosed a bit of what I know..so it appears to be as what you say, "juvenile".
I do not mean for it to come across that way..not at all.
You must admit though..I have told you some of what I have been taught...like Jesus being delusional and why etc...
I will consider your suggestion with much thought...I just don't want it to turn out to be a blood bath is all... I do not want it
to be taken wrong etc.. so until then..I will watch how I post...ok?

Lori

02-05-00, 03:15 PM

TS,

You go girl. Hey Flash, tell her about the dragons. I was actually wondering if you thought you could draw one (the dragon) and mail the picture to me????

You really do crack me up sometimes!!! Hey, whatever happens, please try to remember to keep your sense of humor, O.K.???

Hey, my sense of humor is what keeps me breathing, you know? You just have to laugh, or????? I'm just glad that someone out there "gets me". LOL!

But seriously, if dissolution is really NOT what you truly want, then you might want to reconsider.

Well, yea. I'm really just trying to do what's best for both of us. See, it's TOTALLY his decision, just like it says in the Bible you know? It's not mine to make. If he WANTS a dissolution, then he's the man, that's what he will get. And honestly, that's not OK with me, and it's not what I WANT, but what I WANT doesn't seem to ever be an option. I'm not ever letting him back in this house until he commits to changing some things about the way he sees his role in regards to me, and the way he treats me. I just can't; there's no way. He was just so mean and hateful and uncaring and demanding that all I did was cry and scream, which didn't help anything. I saw no other option but to ask him to leave, then of course there's another terrible thing that I've done to him to add to his imaginery list of complaints. It's all up to him, if he wants to try, I'll try. If he wants a divorce, fine, then a divorce. He has to make a flippin' decision about SOMETHING SOMETIME in his life. Things CAN NOT go back to being like they were, no way, I can't take it. AND, do you know what was strange? Well, I guess strange isn't really the word, but....I've been praying about us for a long time. Every time I tried to talk to Jesus about Steve, He wanted to talk about ME!!!! (See guys, THAT's how I KNOW it's Him talking to me). He said "be patient, have more patience". Always, always, that's what Jesus said to me about Steve. He's helped me a lot to learn about myself too. But immediately after I found out about the porno thing, when I prayed that night Jesus said, and it shocked the blankity out of me, "That's it. That's NOT ok." That was the ONLY time He EVER addressed anything that Steve had done with me.

If you truly love him and it's more a matter that he is immature and self-centered, then there is probably hope in the long-run. Believe me, I have seen "miracles" happen in situations where that is the case. It doesn't happen overnight though... It can take many years...

Well, I've got nothin' but time. I think that it's pretty safe to say that I'm not looking to rush out and find some OTHER dick. Just say no to dick. That's my motto. It would take just as big of a miracle to get me to trust another man as it would for me to trust Steve again, so???? BUT, as I said before, I'm not tolerant enough, nor do I think that I should be (Esau) to just let him go along as he has been treating me and just say nothing about it and put up with it. I just don't have what it takes emotionally to take that kind of abuse. I have to keep my wrath in check, because as it takes a LOT to get me there, once I'm there, it's NOT pretty. Not at all. I'm the kind of woman who has NO FEAR, or as the hillbillies say "Ain't skeered". LOL! I've gone nose to nose with a 6'4" 260 lb inbred ex-con that used to live next door to me. He was drunk in his back yard, and threatening his soon to be ex with a hockey stick when she came to get some of her stuff out of the house. She still had the black eyes that he gave her before she left. I saw what was going on out my window and called the cops. After they left, and she left, there had been a friend of his over there, who was I guess helping his wife and sticking up for her, and he felt betrayed by him. So as he was leaving, the drunk neandrothal was on his front porch with beer in hand screaming at him "I'm gonna kill you, you mf'er," and blah blah. I was standing on my porch, all of 10 feet away from him, and I pointed my little finger at his face and said "You better shut the fuck up, or I'll call the cops on your stupid ass AGAIN!". He didn't know that I was the one who had called them. He put up his hands like I was holding a gun on him or something and started saying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry". I cut him off and screamed "Just shut the fuck up RIGHT NOW!" Finger still going. Oh, and I almost forgot the best part. Apparently, according to the police, my neighbor went out that very night, found his "friend" that he was yelling at when I shup him up, and stabbed him eight times. Interesting, huh? I've spit right in a man's face before (my husband). I'll never forget the look he gave me after that one. Utter, and total confusion. He asked for it. Believe me, he did. I've also shoved a guy about twice my size about 10 feet acrossed a dance floor one time cause he kept doing that extremely irritating "humping dance" that white guys for some reason do, on my ass when I was trying to dance and enjoy a band that I was watching. I warned him to quit doing it three times, and give me about an inch or so of space, but I guess he didn't think I was serious? Go figure. No guy ever thinks I'm serious about anything because of my rack. They don't hear a flippin' word I say unless I get in their face. That's just the way it is. Believe me, not by my choice. Maybe that will explain my mouth to some of you who don't quite understand me. I'm not mean, but unless I want to be categorized as some wanna be stripper or porno actress that doesn't have a brain or any other trait besides sexuality, then I have learned that I must get in people's face occasionally. I'm not afraid of anything or anyone. Guys don't like that about me at all. Go figure? I think it's too contradictory to what they WANT to perceive me as, and it just hurts their little pavlov brains. *shrug* Who cares?

Have you considered just trying to keep dialogue going for now? Maybe meeting him for coffee once a week to start? Maybe drop the issues for a while... If he prefers to talk about the weather at first, then why not talk about the weather for a while? See if you can trust each other with the little things first?

Yea, that's exactly what I've wanted, but everytime we get together, it's only because he WANTS something FROM me. Either cheap sex, money, or weed, or something. Every time I've been with him since, he's made it PERFECTLY clear that he just doesn't get it, and since he won't EVER hear it, cause he doesn't want to, then what????? I'm at a loss.

We get together, and he only wants to either ignore the issues all together OR tell me about how everything is MY fault, and tell me the millions of things that he thinks (dreams up) that are wrong with me. I'm no perfect angel, but believe me, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see (if you were to know us personally and be familiar with our relationship), that he's dillusional if he thinks that I'm the sole source of the problems.

Listen, I don't think that you're butting in at all. I don't mind talking about this at all, and your advice could only help things. I appreciate it. You know me, Ms. Honestly, I don't mind sharing one bit. Being non-threatening and matter of fact is not my strongest suit when my feelings are hurt or when I'm angry. Have you guys noticed that at all?? ;) That is what I have done wrong in our relationship at times. I just feel like I've been so unfairly "pushed to the limits" so often by him, it's like "what do you expect?" You know? Believe me, I know that I have my own set of "issues" regarding men. A whole huge can of worms that has to do with the men that I've witnessed in my family and with my friends, and also has to do with my boobs. I know that sounds strange, but suffice it to say that I was not brought up in an atmosphere in which I learned to trust or appreciate men for what they are SUPPOSED to be to us women. I wouldn't trust the average man any further then I could pick his stupid ass up and throw him out the door. We can talk about that too, if you'd like. It's something that I'm just now realizing, through faith of course. Thanks for caring. Later. :)

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited February 05, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited February 05, 2000).]

Flash

02-05-00, 03:58 PM

Lori,
I can't even draw a stick person... so I sure the hell can't draw a dragon! LMAO!!

Flash

02-05-00, 04:02 PM

Lori,
ummm all so you can convince her that I was speaking with "satan"????? See..that is why I hesitate to talk about this here..understand?

Lori

02-05-00, 06:01 PM

Flash,

Come on, you can draw it if you try. Please?

And ok, I won't say a thing. You tell TS what they've told you, and she can make up her own mind. That's fair enough. I'm sorry I butted in. :)

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-05-00, 06:14 PM

Lori,
It's not that I mind that you joined in..and you have a right to voice your opinions...just let them make up their mind before you give your opinions?? That sound too ummm..whatever? LOL Sincerely, do you understand what I'm saying?
Look, I'll ATTEMPT to draw it..ok? But I'm telling you...it may look like nothing in which I saw LMAO

Flash

02-05-00, 06:19 PM

Lori,
Which part are you talking about that you want me to share?????? You don't have to go into detail..just give me a hint.

Lori

02-05-00, 06:42 PM

I'd LIKE for you to share EVERYTHING, but I won't hold my breath. ;) Share the "truth" that you've been told, like specifically, not just the Jesus-bashing stuff but everything. You could also share some stuff about the whole "teaching" experience and what it's like. You could also share a description of your "teachers" and describe their traits in their entirety. There, that's a start....

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-06-00, 11:10 AM

Lori,
Those things would not serve a purpose, Lori.
TS and I were talking about spiritual things...the other things have nothing to do with that...your right..don't hold your breath... ;) I'll probably just do what TS
suggested...when the spiritual things are taught I'll right them down..and if they fit into what is being kicked around on the board then I'll share.

Lori

02-06-00, 02:13 PM

Flash,

I mean this in the most loving way, but you are full of shit. They would serve a purpose, you are full aware of what said purpose would be, and that's EXACTLY why you choose not to share. Those "other" things have everything to do with your spirituality and you know it. Jesus brought me to mine. Who brought you to yours? That's a fair question isn't it? F.O.S.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

tablariddim

02-06-00, 02:15 PM

Flash,
I presume you take the currently accepted scientific views on the creation and nature of the universe, yes?
And I also presume that you believe that we have a soul or spirit, yes?

Ok, so can you please, please, please tell us your theory/belief/faith on the nature of this spirit?
Where does it come from?
Where does it go when we die?
What is the purpose of life, in your enlightened opinion?

... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

------------------
"The crows are already stoned", he said.
With a look of dispassion on his sad face.

Flash

02-06-00, 04:40 PM

Lori,
So what? Your point? It does not matter who brought whom to what... we are speaking of spiritual truths ...not HOW I came to find the Spirit of Truth.

Tab,
Give me a few days and I'll answer.

Lori

02-06-00, 07:46 PM

Uh, my point would be that you're F.O.S.? It's not unimportant just because you deem it to be. My faith says that it's EXTREMELY important, like most important, and you know that. Why are you ashamed? Is this something like "the porno is my private thing, sorry honey."?

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-06-00, 11:23 PM

Lori,
That's just it...YOUR faith...NOT mine. It's my right to share what I feel necessary..not because YOUR faith thinks that it is. I have told Tab and 666 that I would share some things in a few days and so I will.

Tony H2o

02-07-00, 12:16 AM

Hi Flash,

Just catching up a bit on the weekend stuff, looks to me that most people are wanting to know the same thing we've been chasing around in dreams and visions. TS, Lori, TAB even plus myself and others all want to know about your spirit of truth. If you don't cut to the chase and spit it out Flash pretty soon people will have you pegged as a stirrer and won't pay you an ounce of attention. You keep talking in circles Flash, its time to talk straight.

Hi Truestory

Quote:
Taking your own experiences into consideration... do you now accept God's great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ solely because it is a way out of a previous lifestyle, or is it because you now love God who delivered you from such a lifestyle and you accept his great and loving gift of eternal salvation because you love Him and want to be with Him for all eternity?

TS, Yes it took a hammering to shake me awake. When the hammer dropped I was convicted of my sins, as I have said before I knew that I knew that I could not do it alone. So where does that leave you? SHAKEN! But in the midst of the tempest. in the midst of the emotional turmoil was a still small voice, the voice of the Holy Spirit. He didn't come yelling and screaming but He came to me when he knew I was ready to listen. Do I accept Jesus as a means of escaping hell to come or hell I lived? I accept Jesus because He turned me around, He turned my whole life around from one of blaming God and others for things to one of realisation that I was to blame. He turned my views around from one of a God who inflicts disaster and punishment to one who loves and gave his all, only He can do this. So in answer, His love is the basis of my relationship, without it we would not have one. Just having a loving and living relationship with Him is more than enough of a reward for a man who was wretched, the side benefit of eternity with Him is where grace kicks in. I really believe that the things I went through are not so much different than what others do in varying degrees, God the Father through the Holy Spirit speaks to us in these circumstances with the primary objective of bringing us back to the way things should be, a living relationship with an almighty God that gave His all for us. This is the voice of His love to those who are being lost, He calls and calls. Love never gives up, whether we listen or not is another matter. For me it took a lot to listen, for others its quicker, for me it took a Mack truck, for others a gentle prompt. Its still the same voice of love calling, it just takes differing circumstances for us to listen. If we fail to listen? Grieving the Holy Spirit, we will be lost eternally. As I said originally hell fire and brimstone are a consequence of sin, and fear of them is not the sole motivation for salvation although God will use it if necessary.

My father suffered a heart attack late last week, my dad is a strong independent, no one tells me what to do and I'm not afraid of anything type of guy. He's 65 and has been as fit as a fiddle, until last week. My dad does not know Jesus and claims to not believe. But I'll tell everyone here something, he was as scarred as a rabbit and in fear of death. My dad who has never been scared of anything knew he was not ready for death and that if it came upon him he would be lost. I'm trusting that when I see him today that God will use this as an opportunity for my dad to realise His great love. Its sad that it sometimes takes something of such great pain and fear for people to understand that they are eternal beings created to fellowship with the Living God in a relationship of love.

Thanks TS

(PS I know what your doing, well done)

Lori,

Man you scraped the bottom of the barrel with that one didn't you, you got a real Homer Simpson. But remember even Homer has a few good points that God can work on.

A girlfriend of my wife had her husband walk out on her with a 12 month old and one on the way. He was much like yours, mummy's little boy spoilt rotten. Well we took Tracey in and Jason her couch potato husband went straight out and got he office secretary pregnant with twins. To cut a long story short the twins were miscarried, the secretary went spako nuts, and Jason ended up a lonely still married guy. Meanwhile Tracey stood firm in her faith even though she did it hard and hurt along the way. Eventually with a lot of talking and sorting through things Jason pulled his head in and understood that the things he was unhappy about were not all (some were) Traceys fault. Today they are a happy healthy family again with 3 kids, a mortgage, pets etc.

Moral to the story: There is hope, stand firm in your faith and trust in the Lord. Set a time frame for Mr mommy's boy to turn it around. Let him know about it, if he wont sit and talk or if things get to heated write him a letter, copy it and post one every week and no don't go ripping shreds off him. Your a smart girl look at possible solutions and offer up suggestions, if he loves you at all he will try to understand. Its a possibility that you may set yourself to hear some things you don't want to but ask him to do the same. Keep away from the finger pointing thing, you know the mommy's boy or blame placing until you get past the basic stuff and are ready to dig deep. Above all, pray, praise and worship our God. Don't let the emotion and hurt stand in the way of common sense, one thing at a time, one day at a time. Lots of little steps make a walk.

PS If you've heard all this before just tell me to rack off.

Take care I'm praying with you - H2o.

truestory

02-07-00, 02:00 AM

Tony,

Thanks for your response. To be truthful, I really was just interested in knowing if your relationship with God was currently motivated by fear or love or both. Personally, I never really experienced the fear factor (maybe I should!). Some people can't stand it when I tell them that God called me and revealed Himself and His plan for salvation to me during a very apathetic time in my life.

Although I accepted the reality of the experience, it was not until after He then lead me to the Bible which substantiated the entire experience and His message, did I learn to love and accept Him and His great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

May God speed your dad in his recovery! My prayers for his personal salvation are with you both... Peace and love.

Flash

02-07-00, 02:01 AM

Tony,
I KNOW I KNOW...OK? Look, all I was telling Lori is that some of the things she was suggesting that I share are not relevant to what TS and I were talking about..or the questions which Tab and the rest have asked.
It's coming..ok? Just give me some time.

Flash

02-07-00, 02:34 AM

Lori,

Jesus brought me to mine. Who brought you to yours? That's a fair question isn't it?

Ok, fine..no big deal..they already know how I came upon the Spirit of Truth anyway... so there :)

truestory

02-07-00, 03:14 AM

Flash,

Thanks for your willingness to do that... I look forward to the sharing and I truly believe that it will help overall in discussions.

Flash

02-07-00, 03:22 AM

I sure hope so, TS. *crossing fingers*

truestory

02-07-00, 04:25 AM

Lori,

I've been praying about us for a long time. Every time I tried to talk to Jesus about Steve, He wanted to talk about ME!!!! (See guys, THAT's how I KNOW it's Him talking to me). He said "be patient, have more patience". Always, always, that's what Jesus said to me about Steve. He's helped me a lot to learn about myself too. But immediately after I found out about the porno thing, when I prayed that night Jesus said, and it shocked the blankity out of me, "That's it. That's NOT ok." That was the ONLY time He EVER addressed anything that Steve had done with me.

It's great that you're praying and learning from Jesus. Keep it up! :) My prayers are with you, too. I was wondering, though, what Jesus has been telling you lately about your situation with Steve?

I just don't have what it takes emotionally to take that kind of abuse. I have to keep my wrath in check, because as it takes a LOT to get me there, once I'm there, it's NOT pretty. Not at all. I'm the kind of woman who has NO FEAR...

You are right, noone should put themselves in a situation where they are being abused. I am also a naturally peaceful person. However, having grown up in the Bronx where survival skills were a must and having grown up in a home with five brothers (and two sisters) I am also the type of person who has no fear... My daughter is the same way. Unfortunately, though, when she was growing up she did not have as much of what I call the "street smarts" to back herself up. So, she experienced some problems with "no fear," but, nothing that she couldn't handle in the long-term.

I'm not mean, but unless I want to be categorized as some wanna be stripper or porno actress that doesn't have a brain or any other trait besides sexuality, then I have learned that I must get in people's face occasionally. I'm not afraid of anything or anyone. Guys don't like that about me at all. Go figure?

Yeah, some guys can't stand such strength. I'll even admit that there were times early on in our marriage when my husband would sometimes feel threatened by my strength. However, the more we grew together over the years, the more he came to appreciate that aspect of my character. Now, he just loves it!

but everytime we get together, it's only because he WANTS something FROM me.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. By meeting at a pre-determined time each week, though, he wouldn't just be getting in touch with you because he wanted something. You could actually meet for no particular reason! (Just a thought).

Believe me, I know that I have my own set of "issues" regarding men. A whole huge can of worms that has to do with the men that I've witnessed in my family and with my friends, and also has to do with my boobs. I know that sounds strange, but suffice it to say that I was not brought up in an atmosphere in which I learned to trust or appreciate men for what they are SUPPOSED to be to us women. I wouldn't trust the average man any further then I could pick his stupid ass up and throw him out the door. We can talk about that too, if you'd like. It's something that I'm just now realizing, through faith of course.

No, it doesn't sound strange to me. I think I experienced some of the same growing up. Not from my family members, though. I was just talking with my family about this tonight... Despite the fact that I grew up in a home with ten/eleven people (8 children, 2 parents and, at times, our grandmother), we only had one bathroom (which HAD TO be shared at times) but we were taught to respect each other, our differences and our privacy (in as much as possible, living in such close quarters). For example, it was not uncommon that while one of us was taking a bath in the old claw-foot tub (with no shower curtain) another might have to use the commode. Male and female alike, we were brought up to be able to share the same tiny bathroom space, believe it or not, while still being able to respect the other person's need to address their personal hygiene... without gawking, making fun or commenting. Believe me, you learn what trust is all about in a situation like that! LOL!!! Due to situations like that and other experiences, I know that I can trust any of my immediate family members with my life and they know that they can trust me with theirs.

Given that I grew up in the Bronx, (there are some crazy characters in inner city neighborhoods) I am able to size other people up pretty good when I first meet them and, generally speaking, I am very trusting of most people (that probably has something to do with the no fear aspect)... At the same time, though, I know that it is always wise to be reasonably cautious until you've been in situations in which their trustworthiness (or not) will be proven.

Over the years I have met many people, both male and female, who quickly proved that they could not be trusted. I learned early on to address such issues immediately. :)

So, what were your experiences growing up that cause the issues that you have with men?

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 07, 2000).]

Tony H2o

02-07-00, 04:50 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by truestory:
[B]Tony,

Some people can't stand it when I tell them that God called me and revealed Himself and His plan for salvation to me during a very apathetic time in my life.

Although I accepted the reality of the experience, it was not until after He then lead me to the Bible which substantiated the entire experience and His message, did I learn to love and accept Him and His great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Truestory,

I'd like to hear your story, you mentioned once before that mine was not mush different. Is there a past post that you can refer me to?

Thanks for the prayers..... Just had an interesting thought about that, it could be a good topic of discussion.

Take care - H2o

Tony H2o

02-07-00, 05:06 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flash:
[B]Tony,
I KNOW I KNOW...OK? Look, all I was telling Lori is that some of the things she was suggesting that I share are not relevant to what TS and I were talking about..or the questions which Tab and the rest have asked.
It's coming..ok? Just give me some time.

I sure hope so, TS. *crossing fingers*

Flash,

Thankyou, I will try to treat that which is special to you with respect but I will also no doubt question parts. I understand it will take a lot for you to do this and I will pray for you in doing so as I'm sure TS, Lori and others will.

This is a funny place isn't it? We start off with good intentions and well meaning. Then we get caught up in personal debate and sometimes attack each others characters.

Wow what a ride!!

I think perhaps we need to read things more in a general form rather than as literal as we sometimes do. You know try to get the gist of what's being said rather than to wince at every word. Ivan and Oxy are pretty good at the global view, maybe we should all take a leaf out of their books.

Take care - Tony

truestory

02-07-00, 05:51 AM

Tony,

Here is one of the posts in which I relayed my experience:

A few years ago, God appeared to me and instructed me to spread the word. Contrary to what you insist about a previous religious bias, as I have stated before, I was not "religious" prior to this experience. Yes, over the years, I had various unsolicited experiences with what some consider to be paranormal. I had various revealing premonitions and warnings and I even had my mother's spirit manifest itself to me in a translucent, physical form which I could see. These experiences did show me evidence of an afterlife, however, I did not necessarily associate these experiences with God. Like many, I had questions, but I just accepted my experiences and went on with my usually mundane life. As of a few years ago, I was actually apathetic about the existence/non-existence of God and, although I had heard about it, I had never read the Bible. It was only after this particular communication did I take the path of studying and following the life and teachings (the word) of Jesus Christ.

As I said, I was sightseeing in New York City. All of a sudden, there came a physical force sending excruciating pain through my body. I was getting the message that there was "something" that wanted me to move away from my physical location. I also quickly sensed that the "something" was not good (and I never did like bullies) so I stood my ground. Next, a multitude of horrible, SCREAMING spirits flew at and by my head, in what I sensed was another attempt to get me to move from that spot. I sensed that something good was going to happen which these spirits did not want me to see. Again, I stood my ground. After what seemed forever (but it was actually only about ten to twenty seconds), the pain, the chaos, the screaming and the "bad" spirits disappeared. I had a clarity of vision and I was engulfed with a feeling of peace when the spirit of a woman manifested itself to me (again, translucent) in a manner that I could see. With mouth moving (not that it should make much difference), the woman said, "Behold, the Father." Next, the spirit of an ancient male manifested itself to me in the same manner. I immediately "knew" that it was God, "The Father," before the message was even given. The message itself confirmed what I already knew to be true [that it was the spirit of God]. When God, the Father said, "Behold, the Son," the spirit of an infant was also manifested in the same manner. The message was clear, pure and loving and I "knew" the Son to be Jesus Christ... ["Spread the Word. It is not too late. All things can be forgiven. Behold the Son."] "Through Him, all good things will come."

After this communication, as I said, I started studying the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. It is no coincidence that the message I received was reiterated throughout Biblical history and during the life of Jesus Christ. The magnificence of the message and our God who sent it cannot be denied.

Here is another experience which I have had and posted previously:

I suddenly bolted up out of bed early one morning! It was still dark outside. I ran to my daughter's bedroom. She was gone! I looked outside. One of our family vehicles was gone! My husband and I figured that our teenaged daughter must have run away. I got dressed to go look for her. My husband asked me where I was going to look. I said that I didn't know, but I had to go looking. The sun started coming up as I drove by a strip of malls which were all closed (but places where teenagers might go to meet). I looked in the front parking lots of the malls on both sides of the main road. Nothing. Then I back-tracked and looked behind all the buildings at the malls. Still no sign of my daughter or our vehicle.
After having scoured the parking lots of the mile strip of malls, I found myself sitting at a four-way intersection. My vehicle was pointed east, towards the sunrise. However, I could have gone north, south or west as well. I also had the option of getting on the entrance ramp of any one of three different highways. Not knowing which way to go, and in a panic that my daughter had run away with God-knows-who to God-knows-where, I LOST IT!!!

I was sitting in my car, crying hysterically in the middle of this crossroad. I was so distraught, I ended up pounding on the steering-wheel and SCREAMED outloud, "Oh, GOD!!! Where IS SHE???!!!"

I immediately heard a voice say, "East Fifth Street." I was shocked. I stopped crying. I couldn't believe my ears. There I was, locked in my car, alone, with all the windows and doors shut... hearing a voice? I said sheepishly, "What?" Once again I heard, "East Fifth Street."

There was no way I was going to ignore that! So I sat through another light, pondering what to do. "Where is East Fifth Street?" I thought. "Well, there are usually numbered streets in major cities..." (At that point, I was talking to myself). There were three major cities within a 45 minute drive. Since I was already pointing eastward, I decided to head for the closest city, straight ahead.

When I got there, I found and followed the numbered streets until I got to Fifth Street. The sun was up and people were starting to come out of there homes to go to work. I turned right onto East Fifth Street and drove slowly, looking for my daughter. When passing an alleyway, I noticed a light out of the corner of my eye but there were no people there that I could see so I drove on by. As I passed the alleyway, though, the light seemed to get brighter. I had the feeling that I should check this light out. So, I stopped my car and backed it up to the alley. There it was! The sun's light was shining through the alley. It was hitting something so directly that the glare was almost blinding. I couldn't make out what the sun's light was hitting beyond the cars which were up front, but felt the need to go look. So, I got out of my car and walked back into the alley. I couldn't believe my eyes. The sun's light was shining through the alley and reflecting brightly off of the hood of OUR MISSING VEHICLE!!!

I called my husband and told him that I had found the car on East Fifth Street in this city. He asked me what made me look THERE?
Of course, I told him it was a long story. He called the police and he and they met me in the city. I was able to explain the whole thing to him while we continued to search for our daughter. We scoured the neighborhood knocking on doors on East Fifth Street and the surrounding area until we found her a few hours later.

My daughter asked, "How did you FIND me?" I was able to say, "I cannot tell you right now but, please believe me, there is no sense in running away. WHERE EVER you go, I will find you and bring you home. Now what do you say? Shall we go home and try to work things out?" And, we did!

O.K. Gang... What do you call that phenomenon? Hope to hear from you soon... and...

------------------
Have a great day!

P.S. - We later learned that the person she was with in the apartment was a would-be kidnapper who had planned to take her away that afternoon, across multiple state lines, to a remote location in the cold north-east... Thank God for the intervention!!!

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 07, 2000).]

tablariddim

02-07-00, 09:05 AM

Lori,
for all your husbands other faults can't you see that the sex issue may have something to do with you?
As far as I can make out, the guy married a sex fantasy who turned into a man hating, conditional prude.
Can you blame him for choosing porn' over you, when he knows that having plain old sex with you might be more stressful than it's worth? especially compared to what it used to be like.
This is not a criticism, I'm just trying to give you a rational male view, based on what you have been telling us. Please think about it and realise that to him, perhaps you are not the same person he married.

... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

Lori

02-07-00, 02:55 PM

Tab,

I'm trying NOT to jump to the conclusion that you're just being shallow here, so I'll address this kind of thoroughly just to cover all bases...

Ever since I expressed, first in a really nice way, then again in a nice way, then again, then again, and again, and again, then in a not so nice way, and again, and again, and again, then in a really not so nice way, whew, but I think you get my point, that I didn't think it was right for him to take all of my money from me and buy hiself marijuana and toys with it and not help AT ALL with the bills, my husband decided that he hated me. So, yes, I would assume that because of his warped sense of reality and denial and f'd up beliefs about how he should treat people, the porno vs me was justified in his mind. People rationalize all kinds of things don't they?

But the truth is, and I'm sure you'll enjoy hearing this truth, is that I am a walking, talking boner-machine. And I'm not expressing my opinion here, I'm going on cold hard fact. I'm 5'5", about 130#, and about 7#? of that is in my bra. I've got long brown hair, big green eyes, perfect pouty lips (I could do lipstick advertisements), and dimples, yes dimples, and a big grin that could bring a man to his knees in about 2 seconds flat. I'm built kinda like that one actress I can't stand, what's her name???? Shit! She was the bitchy stuck up brunette that played Brandon's sister on 90210 before she got kicked off the show....I've got a mental block. Shannon something?? Now she's on some show on the WB about witches....anyway, I'm built like her only with 36DD boobies. I kind of look a little bit like her in the face too, in a way. But anyway, just suffice it to say that I've seen the girls that are in playboy, and all arched and airbrushed on the porno sites, and I'm waaaaaaaaay better looking than most of them are, and it's alllllllll me. God made me this way, no knives, no lipsuction, no nasty fucking implants, no nothin. I'm 32 years old and my ass is still so smooth you can see your damned reflection in it. No cottage cheese here, man. And I LOVE sex. I'm practically a nympho, I have NO hangups about sex AT ALL. I'm ALL about what HE wants and needs. I'm the kind of girl who will make you a candlelight dinner and feed it to you wearing some very provocative (I don't know how to spell laungere. Well, that's sure as hell not how you spell it???). I'm the kind of girl who would greet you at the door after a long hard day totally nude except for a pair of 3" high heels and give you a kiss that made you wanna pass out. I LOVE giving oral sex. And I've had NOTHING but compliments, that is, if they were able to speak. Believe me Tab, he couldn't have had it any better. I love him, and I NEVER failed to show him that. You just can't control what people want to think in their minds. People can rationalize ANYTHING, and no, it doesn't have to be true or make sense or be fair.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Tony H2o

02-08-00, 02:52 AM

Hey Lori,

Geez sister I think TAB along with all the other boys here are lining up for a date. :D :D :D

Hey watch out maybe a few girls also LOL.

Ok so now we get past the image thing and your favorite past time or what your good at can I ask a question?

What difference has knowing Christ made to your lifestyle? I mean I know its tricky and all and none of us are perfect but if that's what your like now?? What were you like before?? And if its to dangerous or should be reserved for playboy don't answer.
I'm not talking physical appearance or prowes but emotional and spiritual conditions.

Seriously, I'm not poking fun at you but I can see through your posts that you love Jesus and He's working through stuff with you.

Take care - H2o

Tony H2o

02-08-00, 03:41 AM

TrueStory,

Thanks for sharing, pretty mind blowing what God does and very hard to try and explain in words sometimes. Which makes it difficult for people to understand the reality of it.

Thanks again

Take care - Tony H2o

Flash

02-08-00, 04:33 AM

Tony

Which makes it difficult for people to understand the reality of it.
Oh, so you do understand those which believe differently... you know..those who believe differently FROM you??????? Yeah, like I'm
holding my breath ont that one! ;_

Flash

02-08-00, 04:47 AM

Lori,
Sure, No problem.
[QUOTE]You could also share some stuff about the whole "teaching" experience and what it's like.[\QUOTE]

Ok, the teaching experience is like this:
I'm lying there.. meditating and communicating telepathically with the aliens... next thing I know is I see things flashing before my eyes...somethings whihc I cannot make out... what I can make out is coming upon two huge iron doors...those which ahve dragons on them..one on each side... I am then in a room of some sort...and sitting aat a huge table..that is where they teach and share things.
Good enough, Lori??????

Tony H2o

02-08-00, 05:41 AM

Hey Flash,

I know i've already gone home if you look at crop circles but believe me I'm still here.

So just a quick question....

Were you ever heavily into role playing games? Just that these things that were now getting snippets of sound strangley familiar to me...

Anyway later.

H2o

Ivan Kruk

02-08-00, 08:23 AM

WOW�� Lori !!!!

:) :) :)

Your picture of yourself made a very great impression on me.
I always consider that a reading book is much more interesting than seeing a move based on that book, but most exciting is taking a part in the action (not as a actors) in real live, so your husband seemed to me totally blind and deaf. You know, sometimes is safer for a man whose mind is constructed mostly of a fear, to love with porno on TV than with real woman.

Now I see, that my posts in �What love is?� topic seemed to you as a gloomy joke � I�m very sorry for that. I have to agree that my idea doesn�t work in all cases.

I�m very busy now, but I will come back.

<BLINK>
<FONT COLOR="red">

Keep yourself warm.
</FONT>

</BLINK>

<HR>

http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/ivan.gif

The Ravens Are Not What They Seem

------------------

[This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited February 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited February 08, 2000).]

Flash

02-08-00, 10:21 AM

Tony,
A ROLE PLAYING GAME????????????????? So you think somehow some way it's just not possible ..therefore I'm pulling this shit out of my ass???????????? Bite me, Tony!

Bowser

02-08-00, 10:50 AM

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> This thread has drifted from its original post. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon7.gif">

You kids have whipped this hoarse into a puddle of goo.

------------------
It's all very large.

truestory

02-08-00, 11:36 AM

Hey Flash,

Thanks for sharing that...

Now, you say you meditate and communicate telepathically... Does that mean that YOU are the one who initiates (solicits) the experiences?

When you go into the room, who or what is there? Can you describe the "teachers" and "students" (if any). Is it always the same group, or do individuals change each time you go there?

I'm also interested in knowing what the table and chairs look like, what they are made of and how they feel to the touch?

Sorry for all the questions... If you don't mind?

Flash

02-08-00, 12:59 PM

Thanks, TS.

Now, you say you meditate and communicate telepathically... Does that mean that YOU are the one who initiates (solicits) the experiences?
Well, sometimes yes and sometimes no. It certainly didn't start out that way..they had always been the one to do so in the beginning. To date..yes, it happens a lot when I meditate..but not always. Also, there are times when it just happens at their wanting without me doing anything.

When you go into the room, who or what is there? Can you describe the "teachers" and "students" (if any). Is it always the same group, or do individuals change each time you go there
The aol's are there... the description of them might sound scary..but, they are not in heart...not at all. They are a deep deep color of black...but, man..when they smile, it's so warm...so much love is just poured out.

I'm also interested in knowing what the table and chairs look like, what they are made of and how they feel to the touch?
The best way I know to describe it is like one huge conference table with many chairs surrounding it. They are like a mahogany type of wood..yet it isn't..but that is what it looks like..feel to touch? Well, I really haven't paid much attention to that..I mean nothing of it is out of the ordinary really...

Sorry for all the questions... If you don't mind?
Don't be sorry..and no, I don't mind.

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited February 08, 2000).]

truestory

02-08-00, 01:47 PM

Thanks, Flash...

What are aol's... The teachers? (Does aol mean something?) Are they covered with mostly skin or mostly hair (if hair, about how long is it)? Do each of them have individual distinguishing characteristics and names? Do they have a distinctive odor? Do they wear clothing? Do they have human-like hands or are they more claw-like? Are they the only one's there when you go to the room or are other humans there also?

tablariddim

02-08-00, 01:53 PM

Lori,
I wasn't being shallow, you told us yourself in a previous thread that you considered sex with your husband a sin, that in your faith you consider it is only meant for procreation. I was under the impression that you were trying to shut down your sexuality because it's like, the thorn in your side.
Therefore, I would consider that to be stressful to your husband. And like Ivan said, the guy could be in some kind of fear if he's willing to avoid you sexually.

I know that you've already told us that your husband's a f**d up pig but can you remind me if 1, he was like that when you married him?
2, He changed slowly or suddenly over time?
3, He changed after you became a Christian?

... http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif

Flash

02-08-00, 02:10 PM

TS,
Ok, I'm slow..but not that slow where you have to repeat yourself three times LOL :D

Don't you hate it when it won't post ..then you post it again and then shows up twice..in this case three times? Ugh, huh? :)

The aol's are what I call them..aliens of light. They are covered with skin. Do they have individual distinguishing characteristics?? Not really... as far as the names go...I don't know if they do or not...I have always addressed them as "teacher".
"Do they have a distinctive odor?" YES, but I really do not know how to describe it.
Long black capes ...
They are the only ones in there...I am the only student..

truestory

02-08-00, 02:18 PM

Thanks, Flash.

Yeah, seems like a lot of server errors happening today. I see you had to go back and delete one yourself. :)

So, what are their hands and feet like?

Do they have hair on their heads?

What do their heads and faces look like? (Shape? forehead? eyes? ears? noses? lips? teeth?)

How many times have you been to this place and when is the last time you went?

PS - Why do you call them aliens of "light?"

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 08, 2000).]

Lori

02-08-00, 02:44 PM

TS,

You go girl.

Ivan & Tony,

Well thanks for the offer honey, but unless you're a card carrying Jesus freak like me, you don't stand a chance. *making a cross with my fingers as if you're a vampire* No way, not again. Not ever. And even then, I'm not so sure. As J. Geils so profoundly put it, "Love Stinks".

Tab,

Here's the deal. My husband can work it like no body's business ok? We were BOTH sluts before we got married, so lots of practice makes perfect I guess. But regardless, sex was NEVER an issue between us. What my husband did, is basically misrepresent himself to me prior to the marriage regarding his intentions (though in hind sight if my eyes had been open a little wider????). Then after we got married, he decided that he had me "caught", and that he could just quit trying. Not only quit trying, but be a spoiled rotten brat who did nothing but lay around on my couch smoking pot while I worked my ass off to pay all of our bills. Did you hear that? Is that NOT insane? And also, it wasn't JUST the bills, his spoiledness and his "one set of rules for you, another set for me" routine was globally regarding almost every other aspect of our relationship as well. I tried to be nice about it for a long time. I tried to be patient for a long time. I tried to reason, rationalize, beg even, yes, I swear I've actually been on my hands and knees. Then I said NO. NO f'ing way. Then he decided that he hated me, and REALLY didn't try anymore. Since then, he's just been plain mean and evil. So, yea, in his MIND he had every reason to act like he did, but also in his MIND he thinks he has a reason not to work and let someone else pay his bills, so go figure???? And no, it didn't have anything to do with my getting religion. Believe me, I didn't try to put that into the mix as well. I would be the LAST person who he would listen to about that. He wouldn't agree with any of it see, because and only because it would be coming out of MY mouth.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited February 08, 2000).]

Flash

02-08-00, 03:28 PM

TS,
Yes I did have to delete one.. LOL
Their hands are human like.. to be truthful I haven't exactly zoned in on detail of their looks... my focal point has been more of their faces ... I have not seen their feet..so I couldn't tell ya LOL Their heads are odd shaped...I do not know how to really explain it...Lori, can you help? When I described this for Lori I had to use my hands... LOL ears small and again human like..as well as their nose... outside the shape of their heads...they are pretty much human in appearance...
I do not know how many times I have been there...I haven't kept any records of this at all...I guess I should. The visits use to be nightly...but, that stopped...the last time was..ummm..about three weeks ago?
I call them the aliens of light because of their nature and also that is how they always come... prior to coming a circular light (without a center) flashes before my eyes..over and over...

truestory

02-08-00, 07:19 PM

Thanks for the visual, Flash.

Do you remember what the focus of their lesson was the last time you were there?

Tony H2o

02-08-00, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by Flash:
Tony,
A ROLE PLAYING GAME????????????????? So you think somehow some way it's just not possible ..therefore I'm pulling this shit out of my ass???????????? Bite me, Tony!

Just exploring my own thoughts more so than exploring yours Flash, don't get strung out at me as I said it sounds oddly familiar.

Having read your additional posts with TS has caused the lights to go on and the bells to ring. I know these guys!!! Seriously Flash I do know them, hey I know I kid around at times and mess with what people say but I am deadly serious here, I KNOW THESE GUYS!

You described them as dark almost shadow like right? They seem to flow more than move in a jerky fashion right? Their features are indistinguishable, not that they don't have any it just seems that.... hard to explain....ummm....it seems like they are an overall feature rather than having distinct features right? They don't always speak (although they can) and they don't use telepatic thoughs, its almost like you feel what they do and know what they do right? The closest thing that I could possibly compare them to is what I saw once in an old Lost in Space episode where Penny had a spooky, sparkly dark friend. If you've seen it you will know what I mean. Man alive I'm almost 100% sure its the same clan.

So Flash before I go any further and explain how I know them or when I met them, let me know if its similar to what you've seen, OK?

Thanks

Tony

Tony H2o

02-08-00, 09:59 PM

Ivan & Tony,

Well thanks for the offer honey, but unless you're a card carrying Jesus freak like me, you don't stand a chance. *making a cross with my fingers as if you're a vampire* No way, not again. Not ever. And even then, I'm not so sure. As J. Geils so profoundly put it, "Love Stinks".

Huh??? What offer??? Did I miss something? This must be the slow penny drop speed kicking in again. I've really missed something here.

Take care - H2o

Lori

02-08-00, 10:00 PM

Tony,

A girlfriend of my wife had her husband walk out on her with a 12 month old and one on the way. He was much like yours, mummy's little boy spoilt rotten. Well we took Tracey in and Jason her couch potato husband went straight out and got he office secretary pregnant with twins. To cut a long story short the twins were miscarried, the secretary went spako nuts, and Jason ended up a lonely still married guy. Meanwhile Tracey stood firm in her faith even though she did it hard and hurt along the way. Eventually with a lot of talking and sorting through things Jason pulled his head in and understood that the things he was unhappy about were not all (some were) Traceys fault. Today they are a happy healthy family again with 3 kids, a mortgage, pets etc.

Well, I'm sure by the grace of God. There's no other way to heal that mess. I just don't know Tony, once a man commits adultery, that's it with me. That's about the only thing Steve has done right, but when I asked him to leave, he was already way there in his mind you know? But I don't think he has. I would hope that he would at least have enough dignity to tell me, and we do have many mutual friends that keep in touch. Especially when you consider that we don't have children. Why? Because he won't take responsibility for himself, he's scared to death of the thought of a child. I swear, we haven't even been able to talk since the wedding about ANYTHING that has to do with a family or any future plans at all. Every time I even want to just talk casually about it you can see him completely shut down. He has extreme insecurity problems ok? Ones that at one time had him in a state of full blown la-la land nervous breakdown. And guess who was there for him throught it all? Me. At the time he was so paranoid, he wouldn't even sit next to me. It was before we were married, but we had fallen "in love" already, and it had gotten fairly serious. The thing that triggered the breakdown was thinking that he had given me an STD, that was later found to be misdiagnosed, and was nothing contagious at all, or an STD. It was that he is really anxious anyway, but that just sent him over the edge. It wasn't easy at all, but I prayed a lot for him, and was the only one of his friends that even would come around. And he snapped out of it just as fast as he fell in. I thought that he would be alright, and he has been. Nothing like the state he was in then. He does smoke and he takes anxiety medication that the doctor keeps feeding him. And here I am the big looming cloud of doom on his life you know? Telling him that all he needs to do is get his head off drugs, and take an honest look at his life, and some of the behavioral problems that are really hurting him! So I'm the bad guy. Well, I'm not alone. He's isolated a LOT of people, and turned away from a LOT of challenges. It doesn't even take a psychologist to know what his problems are; it's obvious. All he is doing is escaping his reality and problems more and more and more with drugs and with denial, because he's so anxious due to insecurity. But by avoiding the issues, he's doing nothing to be proud of himself for. Actually, he's failing more and more. Now the marriage. It's just one failure in a long list of his. Big ones, unfortunately. I've also taken the time to put myself in his shoes. When I did, and I thought about how I would feel if at 28 years old, I had always been taken care of, and didn't know anything about how to be independent, and had dropped out of high school and spent a bunch of time getting wasted and riding dirt bikes and skate boards while the majority of people were actually out there learning or accomplishing something. Now enter myself. Miss. College educated. No wonder he feels anxious. If I was his with his track record and parental influence ever woke up out of my stupor long enough to catch a glimpse of my reality I wouldn't be anxious, I'd freak. Either that or numb myself again to it real quick. No I wouldn't actually, and that's why I'm not him. I'd get my ass in gear and do something besides running and hiding and blaming. I'd get religion. :) I honestly don't think that it had occurred to him at all that I actually had needs that he would be responsible for. And I mean any, besides sexual I guess. Funny though, he always, always met all of them and more when we were dating. I remember I had been in a few bad relationships with loser men, and I actually expected the worst at that point going into it with Steve. I couldn't help it. Not that I perpetuated it, or made it obvious to him, but I surely wasn't going to be surprised or heartbroken when he turned out to be a pig. And I remember thinking to myself all the time "Wow, he actually did the right thing. Wow, he actually said the right thing. Wow, he's actually doing this for me? I can't believe it. What is with all of this pleasant surprise stuff? What is this? Why, IT MUST BE A HUSBAND!!!" Anyway, I am left with no other alternative than to believe that was an act. Because I swear, like clock-work, it all changed. Actually, I had my own little mini-nervous breakdown ONE WEEK before my wedding because he out of the blue threatened to call it off (after a year of planning and a two year engagement) if I didn't agree to get a joint checking account with him. We had been living together for two years at that point with separate checking accounts and no problems. Well, he bounces checks like crazy, which is why I didn't really want his mits in my headache you know? If he didn't want to be responsible with money, then why would I want him bouncing checks on my account? Anyway, did you hear that he threatened to cancel the most important thing that had ever happened to me in my entire life that I was more elated about than anything ever???? Over a checking account??????? He was serious, and I went nuts for about three days. I couldn't do anything besides stare at the TV (not that I was watching) and bawl. I don't think even my parents divorce his me that hard. It's been down hill ever since. I'm the looming cloud with the biological clock. Not that I act that way, but because he's so insecure, he chooses to see me that way. All he wanted me for is a adoptive mother/cook/maid/checkbook/sex kitten. And he basically stayed stoned alot and entertained himself. If we were lucky enough that he would sometimes find actual work entertaining and do-able in the foggy state of mind that he's always in, then he may get lucky enough to earn $8 / hr of pocket change for himself to buy his weed and truck stuff and yard tools and baseball hats and CB radios and CD's and whatever, and he won't have to BOTHER following me around the house BEGGING me like a five year old child over and over and over again if he can have it or if I'll buy it for him. I swear to you, he would like to come up to me, and this is say him out of work for 6 mos and 3 mos behind on the utility bill, and get all "fake romantic" with me, like pretending to be interested and romantic in order to get me to say yes, after I've already explained like an adult that we don't have the money!!!!!!!!!!!!! My line is drawn guys. He's insane, and it's very clear that no matter how nicely or how horribly I try to put it to this guy, he's not interested in trying. He's only interested in getting his way about everything, and there's no way. It's only a matter of him giving up and saying it. It's his decision. And it seems that he's made it last check. So, we'll see if he actually signs the papers. If he decides he doesn't want to, and he doesn't dip his wick elsewhere, then I'll wait for him forever. Believe me, I've covered all angles. I've tried everything. All I do is pray for God's will and for Steve to be saved. Wow, what a tangent. Ok, enough soap talk huh? Yuk. Sorry.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Tony H2o

02-08-00, 10:13 PM

Thanks Lori,

Heavy duty workload there sister.

He sounds a bit like me before Jesus happened for me. Yikes, I don't fancy your chances if he stays in the dark.

Stay dry in the shelter of the Almighties wings Lori. Good to see that through it all your falling on Him for strength.

We are all praying with you.

In Christ - Tony H2o

Flash

02-09-00, 04:27 AM

Tony,

They don't always speak (although they can) and they don't use telepatic thoughs, its almost like you feel what they do and know what they do right?
Ummmmmmm...pretty dang close..however, these do communicate telepathically if they so desire....so I guess you really don't know them then.

Flash

02-09-00, 04:35 AM

TS,
Well..that's just it. Lori can testify this to be true as I had discussed this with her.
Recently, like I said..the visits have not happened nightly..not like they use to. Prior to the nightly visits..the ones that I had w/them ..there were only bits and pieces that I remembered...all mixed ... then when the nightly visits started I was able to recall nearly most everything... then all of the sudden...it slacked off..and I was like
back to square one again...not remembering a whole lot. The Spirit of Truth explained to me that I was hearing the things that were being taught...but that I wasn't digesting it...so things are going now at a slow pace... *sigh* but, it has to be that way for now..and I do understand...

Flash

02-09-00, 04:58 AM

Tony,
Who did you think they were? Just curious...

Tony H2o

02-09-00, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Flash:
Tony,

They don't always speak (although they can) and they don't use telepatic thoughs, its almost like you feel what they do and know what they do right?
Ummmmmmm...pretty dang close..however, these do communicate telepathically if they so desire....so I guess you really don't know them then.

Sorry Flash tripped up on my own fingers, what I meant to type was that they don't always use telepathy, like I said with the speaking part. :o

So I do know them then. It was when I was a young child up to ?? well I can pinpoint it but we won't go there just now. Did the rest of what I described gel with you? Personally I used to call them the shadow people, they never harmed me or my sister and always were very friendly.

H2o

Flash

02-09-00, 05:33 AM

Well..yeah, to be honest..that was the only part that didn't fit the description..but, that still doesn't mean it's them.
Why don't you explain more about them to me.and we will see.

Ivan Kruk

02-09-00, 09:30 AM

Hey Lori,

Does it mean that you decided to stay alone for the rest of your live in case your husband will not come back!!!
Come on. . don�t be silly.
Every guy has �bad part� of his personality (like a woman also). One has greater, the other smaller one. But in any case it means that every man is like your husband. Please don�t treat yourself so against guys.

Ivan
:confused:
(I�m bored with raven�s picture)
(After all, you know who I'm)

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[This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited February 09, 2000).]

Lori

02-09-00, 05:08 PM

Well, Tony, Ivan,

I was just making a generalistic sarcastic remark about the "guys lining up for dates" thing. I know I'm being ridiculous in a way, but I don't even think that gun shy is the word for it anymore. It just seems to go beyond that even. But I know that Jesus will help me. He has already in my head and is working on my heart, it just hasn't necessarily come out my mouth or been reflected in my actions so much. I'm trying. It takes so long because I'm so stupid sometimes!! Surely God knows "how I am" and won't let me suffer without a man for too long. Then again, sometimes when I think about atonement, and my past, it seems that realistically, giving it up all together for a while or forever doesn't seem like it would be "such a stretch" for God's imagination, even though it may well be for mine. I don't know....it's all very LARGE. :)

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Tony H2o

02-09-00, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Flash:
Well..yeah, to be honest..that was the only part that didn't fit the description..but, that still doesn't mean it's them.
Why don't you explain more about them to me.and we will see.

Well Flash I'd love to but the problem is that you will assume I'm from Nutsville Christian fanatica. I can tell you exactly what they are and who they are Flash and it may even come accross as a bit more far fetched or actually feasable than demon aliens. The question is are you ready to go there in a rational manner with me or are we simply going to lock horns again and end up spitting it?

I honestly would like to discuss it further, I'm trying to be open minded with you Flash, I will not mock you however I will question you if we start playing the hide and seek games again. I have never doubted the reality of your experiences Flash.

H2o

Flash

02-10-00, 02:00 AM

Ok, Tony...no hide and seek...instead we will play tag.....YOU'RE IT! ;) Sooooo shoot..let's hear it.

666

02-10-00, 02:05 AM

Lori,

I was just making a generalistic sarcastic remark about the "guys lining up for dates" thing. I know I'm being ridiculous in a way, but I don't even think that gun shy is the word for it anymore. It just seems to go beyond that even. But I know that Jesus will help me. He has already in my head and is working on my heart, it just hasn't necessarily come out my mouth or been reflected in my actions so much. I'm trying. It takes so long because I'm so stupid sometimes!! Surely God knows "how I am" and won't let me suffer without a man for too long. Then again, sometimes when I think about atonement, and my past, it seems that realistically, giving it up all together for a while or forever doesn't seem like it would be "such a stretch" for God's imagination, even though it may well be for mine. I don't know....it's all very LARGE.
Hope you don't me poping in here. I reilize I may not be able address every asspect here, but here I go...

Giving it up for a while may not be all that bad of an idea. Sometimes when we keep choseing the wrong people to be with we need to step back and look inside our selves to find the answer to why we do this. Then make every effort to keep from doing it again. Sometime it involves coming to terms with the skeletons in the closet that we didn't think were bothering us or thought were to "small" to affect us. Giving it up all to gether doesn't seem to be a healthy choice. We all need companionship in our life.

From your general tone and choice of words it sounds as if you are wating for God / Jesus to do something for you. Heal your heart, or provide you with the right man, even though from your earlier post and post in other topics you stated you ended your relationships with the "better man" early on becuase it made you feel uncomfortable. Why? Some one who treats you with respect and love should make you feel comfortable and loved, not uncomfortable. The answer to why lies with in you, not from anything God or Jesus can provide to you. Hope you don't me picking through your post! if I am off base just tell me to shut up and I will go back to sleep. :)

------------------
All I know is what I understand. All I understand is what I know. :)

Flash

02-10-00, 02:44 AM

Tony,
P.S.

The question is are you ready to go there in a rational manner with me or are we simply going to lock horns again and end up spitting it?
I can if you can...good enough?

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited February 09, 2000).]

Tony H2o

02-10-00, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by Flash:
Tony

Which makes it difficult for people to understand the reality of it.
Oh, so you do understand those which believe differently... you know..those who believe differently FROM you??????? Yeah, like I'm
holding my breath ont that one! ;_

Blue yet Flash??

Cheesy Grinner
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Flash

02-10-00, 02:49 AM

LMAO... I'm dying here..ok???? So spill it, man! ;)

Tony H2o

02-10-00, 04:42 AM

Flash,

Here goes, I'm going to try my best to put this into a logical progression or at least something that makes some sense, OK? So don't go picking thorns out of the thistle, just try to get an overall of what I'm sharing.

I actually did this yesterday but Dave's dumb server chucked a sicko on me and it dumped the lot. I'm going to try and follow what I put together yesterday as close as possible.

When I was young these beings came and visited me and my sister regularly, as I have said they did us no harm. One incident that I remember well was on a night where we were both sleeping in the same room. I remember watching them enter the room, it was a strange thing because they seemed to flow rather than move. They had depth and volume but did not appear to be 3D. The same with the features and communication as before. They came almost for the sole reason to watch over us and be with us.

As I grew older they did not seem to show themselves as often, I knew they were still there because of many strange happenings. My parents and their friends were into ouija boards and seances, palm reading was the norm along with tea leaves, all this stemmed from a gypsy background. On one occasion I can remember a glass floating through the air and smashing against a wall. These experiences and others gave me an interest in the very things my parents had involved themselves in. I pursued astral travelling, magic the paranormal, aliens and UFO's, strange technologies, pyramid power etc as a result of my early encounters with these beings and things that happened. It was like I was a sponge trying to soak in everything, I experimented with drugs and sex and crime became my way of life as well as wanton destruction of innocent peoples property and lives. The final result being a jail cell and suicidal tendencies, leaning over the edge of cliffs, taking life to the limit, it was like an obsession to prove to
others and myself that there were no limits for Tony even if death confronted him. I was one sick puppy. Flash I know you have read Overview and a lot of Dreams and Visions so I won't rehash how I came to know God and what I believe.

What I am now about to share Flash is what I discovered about the shadow people after I became a Disciple of Christ. Now granted Flash some of the things I have described and the way they came to me may be different to your encounters, but I think that you and I both know that the way I described them does not vary greatly from how you see the aliens that come to you. The shadow creatures were ancestral spirits that followed our family from generation to generation passing on from one to the next interest in things I described above. When I say ancestral I don't mean spirits of the dead these were beings that existed before mankind. Their purpose was never to harm but to entice and coax each generation into things that would distract them from the truth, this was achieved by appearing benevolent, harmless and even caring. These beings are extremely intelligent and almost even beautiful to behold. Their intelligence lies in their knowledge of how a person will react to situations, something they have prac
ticed for centuries. They know the things of men and women Flash, they understand what makes us tick, they know our wants and every desire better than we do Flash and they appeal to these in any form necessary, be it a apparition of the virgin Mary to a ghost of a family member that they knew intimately or an alien encounter (and please don't see red on this one). They do no more harm or hurt in life to their host than they know that person can bear, for to do so may cause them to become divorced from their hosts for the generational ties to be broken and them to become wanders.

I came to see them for what they are Flash, and to put a name against it would be fallen elohim or fallen angels, and this is about when you start thinking he's from nutsville and the same as the rest of them. Flash I didn't know this until God showed me, its not what a man taught me, its not what a bible study will reveal unless you dig very deeply, it came to me directly from the Holy Spirit in the dream where I talk about avoiding the acid that contaminated my father.

Flash it is for these very reasons, the intelligence, the subtlety, the shrewdness and the cleverness of these beings that I encourage each and every person to test that which has come to them, test by the only thing that I have found to divide the lies and tricks from the truth. I could quote bible verses to you Flash about testing and about how even the devil can appear as an angel of light, about the strong delusion that is coming and already upon us. Some people take the demon alien conspiracy line, others take views of illuminati and one world order, others spend their lives trying to decipher the book of revelation and work out who the Antichrist is, and so the list goes on. There is an element of truth and merit in them all Flash, other chase aliens, yet others ghosts, some have paranormal encounters, others the pyramids some fairies, goblin and gnomes all these things and more make up the stew of delusion with people lining up to have their fill. But the real truth is that the road to life is narrow and hard to follow, the real truth is that Gods Kingdom is a Kingdom that reins in the hearts of men and women the real truth is that there are many distractions to feed those who want to believe in something or even anything. And the real truth is that these words I write will be ridiculed and thrown back at me because not many really want the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. We are so eager for the marvellous for the unexplainable for anything but the charcoal that has been consumed and refined at the base of the fire. Flash as I write this I am fighting back a flood of tears because it breaks my heart to know this, I don't want to appear like another religious zealot peddling an alternative conspiracy theory yet I know people will read it that way. I know that because of my limited ability to explain clearly what I have had a glimpse of this will happen. I feel like Mosses (dare I compare) who when God appeared to him said but I am slow of speech, send my brother Aaron. I to am slow of speech and not much good at trying to put into simple terms complex spiritual realities.

I have to go now Flash before I short out my laptop.

Take care - Tony

Ivan Kruk

02-10-00, 08:34 AM

Tony,

Maybe I lost something in your post, but what you wrote is for me is an excellent example of how we can proof to ourselves that we are not finally responsible for our sins. I your eyes (WOW � I have just remembered the excellent song of Peter Gabriel: �In your eyes� � I recommend) a man seems like a tiny particle of dust tossed by the war between God and devil. And the only task required from us is to turn in right site � nothing else. The rest is in God or evil hand. In other words � the general conclusion from your post says that you were a bad boy indirectly because of these shadow people influence, so finally you are pure and innocent. Believe me, you are on the wrong way.
Sorry to say but if I would be a god, I had never sent to such people (rather slaves or chunks than humans) any my messenger, because it doesn�t worth such efforts. Finally I�m a god of everything, a devil is also under my influence, so, it is just a game (for fun?). Simply say - it doesn�t work.

As the supplement to your discussion with Flash, I want to tell what happened to my mother. It was many years ago. Some times at night, she saw an alien standing at her bed. During every such �meeting� she couldn�t moved herself anyhow, even to wake up my father. The alien didn�t do or say anything, but it �.. smiled to my mother, so she felt herself safety. And about 10 years after that, my mother saw the TV program about first documented abduction in Poland, and when she saw the drawing of the alien face presented in TV, she spontaneously said: � look it�s MY FRIEND�
So tell me who has a right: you or my mother.
:p
Ivan
<HR>
The Things Are Not What They Seem

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[This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited February 10, 2000).]

Flash

02-10-00, 12:02 PM

Tony,
First, I'd like to thank you for taking time out to reply. Ok, I am being or rather I am TRYING not to see "red". I gave a promise to you and will follow through with it. This isn't the first time I have ever heard of this.
So I ask you this....first, if the shadow people didn't really come around ...why did the "holy spirit" even bother talking to you about them?
Second, what did the holy spirit say to you about them specifically?
Third,
How do you know that the holy spirit is not ummm..jealous or deceiving..and this is why the holy spirit if feeding all of this to you? Just curious...

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited February 10, 2000).]

truestory

02-10-00, 04:12 PM

Flash,

Am I hearing you correctly... are you saying that you are not remembering clearly what is being taught?

Flash

02-10-00, 04:28 PM

yes and no, TS. I was remembering up until recently.. Ok, like I said at the start..it was little things here and there that I remembered...then when it started going good..I remembered ..now, well..it's kind of like back when it began..but, it will get there more in time... this was promised

truestory

02-10-00, 06:38 PM

Thanks, Flash...

Is there anything specific about their teachings, thus far, that you are able to remember and can share with us?

Tony H2o

02-11-00, 01:25 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flash:
[B]Tony,
First, I'd like to thank you for taking time out to reply. Ok, I am being or rather I am TRYING not to see "red".

Thankyou Flash.

I gave a promise to you and will follow through with it. This isn't the first time I have ever heard of this.
So I ask you this....first, if the shadow people didn't really come around ...why did the "holy spirit" even bother talking to you about them?

Come around? Perhaps a bad choice of words? I stated "As I grew older they did not seem to show themselves as often", they were still around they just didn't show themselves as frequently or as openly, they became more stealthy in their actions and plans. Even now Flash as a Child of God and Filled by the Holy Spirit they still come, to best explain let me share what Jesus said.

Matthew 12:
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

So when these beings are cast out are away they wander in a wilderness seeking new hosts and new homes.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

Pretty straight forward, finding no other they return to their original host hoping to find it empty. Empty of what?

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

So finding the host clean and empty he gets excited calls his friends and has a house warming party which will leave the host worse off than before.

But what I want to focus on is, Empty of what? What is it that once our lives have been cleaned up and restored by Jesus should fill us? What should we become?

1 Corinthians 6:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

How should we become this?

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

They keep coming back to check that the new tenant the Holy Spirit is still residing in me, to see if I'm still a disciple of Christ. They come back and try to appeal to my old nature to entice me back to their ways and the ways that I used to walk in, again the Bible explains this better than I can.

Ephesians 2: (particularly verse 2 and 3)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is saying in 2 & 3 that according to the prince of the power of the air (I'm sure Lori has pointed this one out to you in the context of UFO's), but according to that spirit which is the fallen one and his minions with whom we had conversation with and walked in his ways through feeding of our desires physically and mentally. They know what you want to believe, they know what you want to hear, they know what you want to see and they feed these desires. And shock horror Flash something that you are probably already aware of is that 90% of the time us Christians are the biggest suckers out. We all look for the marvellous and miracles and overlook the truth. Now I'm not saying that God can't and doesn't move sovereignly in certain circumstances all I'm saying is that all that glimmers is not always gold, there is a lot of fools gold around. Perhaps this is helping you to understand why I'm always carrying on about testing everything according to God's word, the Holy Spirit and the name of Yeshua the Messiah. But I digress Flash, in a nut shell they hook you, play you and reel you in. And until we allow God to show us this and for the scales to fall from our eyes we are completely oblivious to it. They are stealthy and mastercraftsmen at what they do, they are smart and intelligent and aware of our ways, they hunt us down through life and in death their true appearance and intentions become clear to us. But then its to late, we have made our choices our decisions and followed our desires and not Gods ways.

Second, what did the holy spirit say to you about them specifically?

I think that most of my previous post and the above should answer this, but if I have missed what you mean please clarify.

Third,
How do you know that the holy spirit is not ummm..jealous or deceiving..and this is why the holy spirit if feeding all of this to you? Just curious...

Flash you are starting to see!!! Yes God is a jealous God, He's jealous for the soul and spirit of every man woman an child that roam the face of planet Earth. He is jealous for them in follow in the paths of truth because He know the fate that awaits them that turn their back on Him. His hand of intervention cannot work for those who ignore Him and specifically those that take a stand against Him. Instead He allows destruction to overtake them.

Matthew 7:
13 Go in by the narrow door; for wide is the door and open is the way which goes to destruction, and great numbers go in by it.
14 For narrow is the door and hard the road to life, and only a small number make discovery of it.

2 Corinthians 11:
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Exodus 34:
11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.
12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Deuteronomy 5:
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting (or allowing) the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 6:
13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;
15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

or deceiving...

I have said what I think on this before Flash but so that its clear to all who come here...

2 Timothy 3:
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

James 1:
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Jeremiah 29:
8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. [and Flash before you go thinking that I have been deceived by my dreams note "which ye cause to be dreamed." = self induced trances, self induced states of mind or consciousness to effect or manipulate what one "sees". Induced either by drugs or various techniques including self hypnosis, astral travel etc. My dreams were not solicited in any way manner or form, are yours?]

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

God, the great I AM has one limitation Flash, He can not and will not lie. He is Holy and without injustice, there is no sin, no guile, no malice, no treachery in Him. Men will come and lie, shadowmen will come and deceive, you and I and everyone needs to be on guard 24/7 Flash. We need to check it against a datum of truth and not just accept it as truth.

Regarding the remembering things Flash that TS is asking about God can help with that also. The truth does not hide behind a wall of secrecy Flash, it does not hide behind a wall of silence and once found it is not easily forgotten. It is shouted from the roof top. I'm on the roof top shouting Flash where are you? So I ask you now Flash to speak what you believe to be the truth, I have not hidden my deepest thoughts in fear of what others will say or think Flash. I have stood and will by the grace of my eternal Lord continue to stand against all that has been leveled against me and at me. I have come straight out and said what I have seen and know, I have asked you to do the same and regardless of the promises we only get snippets and fragments of your story Flash. So you know what that leaves me thinking Flash? It makes me think that your creatures of light or aliens of light are the same as my shadowmen, they play the game of stealth so well through and with you Flash but I can see them and I know that they know this. If I am wrong Flash then show me, if I have missed something then show me and don't keep hiding behind the fact that I'm a Christian and would never understand Flash because I know these guys. And deep down in your heart of hearts Flash you are aware of this.

Don't be shy on us Flash, I have promised not to mock your story and I will not. I will however ask hard questions like you ask of us but I will do so in a friendly manner. TS, Lori, Micah, Christian, ISDA and Vinnie, I believe that they will all do the same and I would ask it of them.

Take care Flash

H2o

[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited February 10, 2000).]

Flash

02-11-00, 04:43 AM

Tony,
Wow...that was quite a post.

Come around? Perhaps a bad choice of words? I stated "As I grew older they did not seem to show themselves as often", they were still around they just didn't show themselves as frequently or as openly, they became more stealthy in their actions and plans. Even now Flash as a Child of God and Filled by the Holy Spirit they still come
Ok... so you always feel them? I'd like to know ..how do they come to you now and in what form ...what do they say?

I understand what you/scriptures are saying regarding the "evil spirits" coming back..but, it has not been proven that the ALIENS that visit me are fallen angels..which btw..Lori has told me that time and time again.

I have stated time and time again what I have been taught and what I believe regarding Jesus. Just incase you missed it..here it is in a nutshell. Jesus started out as a great teacher...many listened and many followed him...in all of this..he got hungry...power hungry... he became delusional, Tony....sooooo much that he had convinced himself that he was the son of God..and not just any old "God", Tony...but in his words...the ONLY God. I mean he presented it in a way that if others did not follow him they would not meet God..that they could not get to God..for he is the KEY to God...the ONLY key to the ONLY God. He is slick though as he always tried to make others THINK he was humble... but sakes alive, Tony... come on... I mean ..he wants CREDIT...how??? By others giving up everything including their hearts to him...there is no other way... it's all about him, him, him. I realize you think that is grand, Tony...but, to me... it's shallow... EGOTISTICAL! I know you and others do not like those words..but, that is how I see it. You want to talk about being a deceiver??? How bout a man who convinces the world he is it? You also spoke about God being a jealous God..well, that is suppose to be good?????? Isn't there a saying about jealousy being the green-eyed MONSTER??? Is this a fruit of your holy spirit?????? Well, you talk about testing the spirits...why not test your God/Jesus?
You look to fruits..the bible says you will know them by this..yet, I see tons of displays of them being egotistical, jealous, angry, money hungry (tithe), childish, and murders. That is something I certainly do not want to follow, Tony. Yet, for some reason you and others do?? They keep you focused on one truth..their truth.... I also find it odd when contradictions come up or when someone brings up a valid point regarding the bible..something that goes agains the standard christian beliefs..you all hedge it..right and left. Yet, to make a point to the rest of us...you'll claim certain scriptures which all of the sudden are then to be taken literally... quite odd if you ask me. Ok, nuff said regarding that.

You and others have asked about my story..well ...it's a rather looooooooong one...I don't even know how to begin...
*ugh*
My first encounter with the aliens of light ..was when I was around age 8?? I didn't even know it was them until recently which they explained it was them. This is when they spoke telepathically to me. I AUTOMATICALLY felt a peace and love..now, a child can usually ALWAYS smell a rat..and I didn't. Anyway, they had asked me to do somethings ...and mostly of a spiritual nature... so, I did. There was a period that they came every night... then one day..all of the sudden..they just were not there. The aliens of light recently explained to me that it was them...that they were looking for true seekers of truth..so I guess I passed the test??? Now, after I saw the ufo's... shortly there after..that is when I experienced seeing this light flashing over and over and over... I heard a female voice speaking 90 to nothing. Her voice was very gentle...very loving..and quite soothing to say the least. I remember thinking to myself...man, I have got to write this down...I just have to..which at that point I was unable to. Had I of been able to...I wouldn't be able to even keep up..as she was speaking so fast. I cannot recall what they said..but, they explained to me that it is there inside of me..and when I need it..it will come..for timing is essential..it means everything. I felt them impart things in me...and man the love, joy, and peace that followed is unreal!! What I do recall is that they told me to seek the truth... Now, if they were all evil..and if Jesus is suppose to be the truth...why didn't I find him? They didn't specify with whom to find it...just to seek it.
They have introduced me to the Spirit of Truth, Tony. I was taught that the Spirit of Truth does not seek credit..not at all.. rather, in hopes that all will find it. Truth is an individual realization about ones own life... it is wisdom...and with this..by learning what truth is..we have a choice...either listen and do something about or not to. Well, if we choose to follow truth and take action...we will advance spiritually. Which is only logical.
The Spirit of Truth desires for our world to be in harmony... There will be a great war..as I have told you..that of the "bad" aliens whose intent is to take over our planet..I know, I know...it sounds way out there..but hang in there, ok? The good aliens will come to our aide...they will help win out over the bad aliens. How do they know this? The Spirit of Truth of course. They will help to rebuild our planet as a result of this war. By the good aliens coming to our aide..people will not fear them..but rather recoginze that they indeed are our friends. In this will be shared technology as well as teaching us spiritual things.
Man, I KNOW I am gonna get dogged for this..I can hear it now. I am not a freak..I am not some "mental" mixed up emotional idiot..and I am NOT DELUSIONAL. This is what I have been taught...period!
I'm gonna stop here...as this is already rather long.

Tony H2o

02-11-00, 05:02 AM

Thankyou Flash I really do appreciate your opening up like that, pretty gutsy effort mate.

I haven't got time at the moment to go through it in detail. And like you said to me its not the first time I've heard this.

My Uncle says the same stuff all the time but he's a professional idiot though, and your not so I'll take yours seriously. :D

Anyway I may not be back here before late next week, (work thing ya know). But in the mean time I'm sure you'll hear from Lori, TS and others on this.

Anyways, everyone keep smiling, I know I will.

H2o

Cheesy Grinner time:

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Ivan Kruk

02-11-00, 07:18 AM

Flash,

Thank you for this:

<CITE>
What I do recall is that they told me to seek the truth... Now, if they were all evil..and if Jesus is suppose to be the truth...why didn't I find him? They didn't specify with whom to find it...just to seek it.
They have introduced me to the Spirit of Truth, Tony. I was taught that the Spirit of Truth does not seek credit..not at all.. rather, in hopes that all will find it. Truth is an individual realization about ones own life... it is wisdom...and with this..by learning what truth is..we have a choice...either listen and do something about or not to. Well, if we choose to follow truth and take action...we will advance spiritually. Which is only logical. </CITE>

I�ll never be able to say it in such a fine way, but I agree with this completely.

Ivan

------------------

Lori

02-11-00, 10:49 AM

Tony,

All I have to say is that I thank God for you, and your experience, and your salvation in Christ. I really do. You are an answer to prayer. :)

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-11-00, 11:42 AM

Ivan,

I�ll never be able to say it in such a fine way, but I agree with this completely

Wow, Ivan...I am so glad that someone does...thank you for your reply :D
Sincerely,
Flash

truestory

02-11-00, 02:14 PM

Hello Flash,

Thanks again for sharing.

I would, of course, like to focus on your question:

What I do recall is that they told me to seek the truth... Now, if they were all evil..and if Jesus is suppose to be the truth...why didn't I find him? They didn't specify with whom to find it...just to seek it.

The answer to your question about why you did not recognize Jesus Christ as The Truth which He is, was already answered when you described what you were taught... so, the reason that you did not find the truth in Jesus Christ is because you were poisoned against The Truth by the aols. For example:

I have stated time and time again what I have been taught and what I believe regarding Jesus. Just incase you missed it..here it is in a nutshell. Jesus started out as a great teacher...many listened and many followed him...in all of this..he got hungry...power hungry... he became delusional, Tony....sooooo much that he had convinced himself that he was the son of God..and not just any old "God", Tony...but in his words...the ONLY God. I mean he presented it in a way that if others did not follow him they would not meet God..that they could not get to God..for he is the KEY to God...the ONLY key to the ONLY God. He is slick though as he always tried to make others THINK he was humble... but sakes alive, Tony... come on... I mean ..he wants CREDIT...how??? By others giving up everything including their hearts to him...there is no other way... it's all about him, him, him. I realize you think that is grand, Tony...but, to me... it's shallow... EGOTISTICAL! I know you and others do not like those words..but, that is how I see it.

In a nutshell, Flash, you are being taught by the spirit of the anti-christ. You say that they did not specify with whom to find the truth, however, it is quite obvious that through their teachings, they excluded Jesus Christ as the source of truth for you.

Lori

02-11-00, 02:44 PM

Also Flash,

I know that I promised not to taint this debate, but I did think it was important for you to realize that if they had wanted you to find Jesus, then they wouldn't have "swooped" down on you so intensely IMMEDIATELY BEFORE YOU WERE ABOUT TO PRAY TO HIM. Get that???? Remember when I had just about talked you into just praying to Him for a little help in understanding the faith????????? Yea, well, I think that it's pretty obvious that they DID NOT want you to do that. NOW ASK YOURSELF WHY??????????????????????????????

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Lori

02-11-00, 02:48 PM

Also, I watched a piece on the news the other night about the Baptist church that you started this post in regards to. WHAT A BUNCH OF ABSOLUTE FREAKS!!!!!! Flash, for crying out loud, the only way these people are able to even get any new members to join their church is via INBREEDING!!!!!!!

Now excuse me, but THESE ARE THE PEOPLE that YOUR SPIRIT refers to as being credible enough to take spiritual guidance from regarding Christianity????????? Your spirit of truth is not impressive at all.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-11-00, 03:19 PM

TS,
Well...this happened over a period of time. They didn't mention anything about Jesus until much later in the picture.

this is in answer to your statement and Lori's question... they told me the truth about Jesus to save me from all the deception. That is why. It is pretty clear to me.

Regarding the baptist church, Lori..well..that is NOT the Spirit of Truth leading them...in fact...I believe what they fall back on is the bible and JESUS. ;)

Lori

02-11-00, 03:36 PM

Flash,

Would you please FOCUS?????!!!!! I did NOT say that the spirit of truth was leading them (which in reality you are right, but that's neither here nor there). What I said was, and listen closely, IS THAT YOUR SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS LEADING YOU TO BELIEVE THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE PRACTICING CHRISTIANITY THROUGH THESE "GOD HATES FAGS" AND OTHER RACIST BULLSHIT BELIEFS. IT'S NOT CHRISTIANITY FLASH, GET AN F'ING CLUE. So my question to you is this. Since what these Baptists are doing is IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO WHAT IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE, AND WHAT JESUS TAUGHT, THEN WHY DOES THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH WANT YOU TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE?????????????????????? Why?????? Because it's lying to you!!!!!!!!

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-11-00, 03:46 PM

Lori,
Look, the Spirit of Truth did not come out and directly lead me to that site nor did the Spirit of truth discuss it with me at length...I read it..and I got pissed off at it...that is all......so..find another tree..because you are, I'll try to say this gently/softly... wrong. ;)

truestory

02-11-00, 03:59 PM

Flash,

Well...this happened over a period of time. They didn't mention anything about Jesus until much later in the picture.

Sorry, Flash. This sounds pretty weak to me. If you were supposed to find the truth for yourself and you say that they didn't say where to find it or who to find it with or through, why do you think they felt the need to teach anti-christ thinking? You say it is because they do not want you to be deceived. I say that they do not want you to know The Truth.

For example, this part of the discussion started with you asking why Jesus didn't teach more about love than hell. Although it seems that you refuse to see for yourself, Flash (as they instructed you to do), the "facts" are that Jesus did teach more about love than hell. If the aol's say that He didn't, then they are outright lying to you Flash (hence, the deception).

What else, may I ask, did they teach you was "not" the truth?

Lori

02-11-00, 04:06 PM

I'm not wrong. No one has seen the effect on you and your beliefs due to these beings like I have, and I'm not wrong. You are in denial as usual. Gee, I wonder why, cause they aren't brainwashing you or anything are they??????

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

Flash

02-11-00, 04:43 PM

TS,
Much as this maybe to Lori's surprise..I believe that they taught me about Jesus because of what she pointed out. The Spirit of Truth does not desire anyone to be in harm or deceived...thus, the teaching regarding Jesus came in.

Lori,
You have seen the effect it has had on me or you have seen the fact that we just disagree with one another and that you can't stand?
No, I am not being brainwashed...are you???

truestory

02-11-00, 04:50 PM

Flash,

How do you account for this spirit telling you the lie that Jesus taught more about hell than about love?

Tiassa

02-11-00, 09:24 PM

Flash--

I'm trying to stay out of this one on the merits of two points. A) You seem to be doing just fine so far, and B) I'm less restrained at the point I perceive this post to have reached.

But I've seen one person argue the "Well, they aren't Christians" line, though the discussion seems to persist (Lori, I will address this directly w/you, if I might, but for now ....)

And I've seen another tell you that she knows the name of the beings you've encountered (True ... I'll get there, too.)

In other words, you can't win a battle that's already been surrendered to you. But that's just my opinion. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Tiassa

02-11-00, 09:47 PM

Lori & Truestory ....

Sorry to lump you both together, but part of this I need to offer you each simultaneously.

Way back when I first went nose-to-nose with either of you, one of my critically faulted statements was to generalize "Christian" thought processes.

Here's my problem--

Either of you will claim individually to be segregated from this or that aspect of the church and/or faith. In fact, if there's a negative aspect to Christian faith, you either deny it, or remove yourself from it.

And I could try to say that you've been proving my point, since, at least, the forum tore itself apart in a World Affairs post regarding a rape-murder with gay suspects (if not longer). The problem with saying that, though, is that those miscommunications could simply be the product of our rhetorical catapulting. In other words, once it becomes heated, it's hard to hold people responsible for what they say. After all, for those of certain faiths, they just tell God they're sorry (speak nothing of the person they might have offended) and get on with their lives; if they're lucky, divine grace will affect their behavior.

In other words, this I see but cannot prove; nor would I necessarily want to, because that proof is still far too general, and only insults the people of faith without ever addressing the dogmatic conflicts which lead to the behavior I find so general and offensive.

But you are most definitely demonstrating aspects of this Christ-inspired dismissal, and more nakedly now than in the past.

Now ....

* * * * *

Lori--

What it is, quite simply, is when you wrote:

* "IS THAT YOUR SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS LEADING YOU TO BELIEVE THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE PRACTICING CHRISTIANITY THROUGH THESE "GOD HATES FAGS" AND OTHER RACIST BULLSHIT BELIEFS. IT'S NOT CHRISTIANITY FLASH, GET AN F'ING CLUE."

Here's the F*ing clue I would offer: If you don't like the way people perceive Christianity, then fix it. The only way to fix it is demonstratively. Overwhelmingly, American Christians express themselves in negative aspects. Sure, you're all individuals. So why is it that when I move from individual to individual in the normal course of life, this trend continues?

But pointing at someone who bears the cross and saying, "He's not Christian" is a judgement that makes your God weep. How can you possibly know that they're not representing God's will through Christ? And that's not the half of it.

The other half goes back to something we learned as children from three sources: schools, parents, and preachers. Simply, we represent the body we claim to be. ("Don't misbehave or they'll think the whole school is full of savages.") Now, I don't particularly hold with this, but there's something there. What prevents you from advising these people that they're wrong, or that they're offending God? We can say that we don't know that they're offending God, but then what can you expect when the sum effect of Christian individuals do nothing but complain about textbooks, movies, and television, censor records, support an immoral Drug War, and would rather hire more cops with money taken from inner-city schools than educate the poor out of poverty.

You have a great relationship with God? Excellent! I am not sarcastic in that. But why does any individual Christian have their faith if they're not going to share it? Those people who think God hates fags have a point, according to Leviticus, but then they also need to have a problem with the disabled, in order to be fair. Disavow yourself from it all you want. It's the same as Germans turning their backs on Auschwitz. I'm quite sure they had their reasons, but this was God and country they chose to ignore here. Keep closing your eyes to the evils committed in the name of God, if you want to. But the rest of the world sees, and if y'all can't represent your God correctly or with some sense of solidarity, then what the hell are you representing at all?

That Christianity can rhetorically balance itself within any set of circumstances speaks only to the idea that Christians have had much practice through time. I mean, what's all this about Inquisitions? No Christians tortured or raped women in a crusade against the Christian devil. See the problem? When you look to God, look to God. Don't look in the mirror and call what you see God.

* * * * *

Truestory--

For one who claims to have seen a number of miraculous apparitions and events at the Will of God ... I must remind you then that your divine experiences might be the work of the Devil.

It has to work both ways. You must be able to see the conclusions work in reverse. Or else you're just talking for the sake of a "Hallelujah" that means nothing.

One nearer to God's altar trod, th' other to the altar's God. (Crashaw--"Two went to the temple to pray")

What have I got to offer? What have you got to lose? (Floater--"Minister")

--Tiassa :cool:

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

Searcher

02-11-00, 11:19 PM

Flash,

I agree with Ivan - for the most part, I like the Truth you are sharing. Your alien friends seem a great deal more gentle, wise and mature in their words and actions than the god of the bible. No hissy fits, no jealousy, no killing and wanton destruction - they seem pretty cool so far! :)

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Flash

02-12-00, 08:13 AM

TS,

How do you account for this spirit telling you the lie that Jesus taught more about hell than about love?
Not everything Jesus said or did is contained in the bible... simple as that

Tiassa,
LOL... :D Thank you!

Searcher,

I like the Truth you are sharing. Your alien friends seem a great deal more gentle, wise and mature in their words and actions than the god of the bible. No hissy fits, no jealousy, no killing and wanton destruction - they seem pretty cool so far!
:D Thank you Searcher... yes, this is what they are about, totally! I am glad that you can see that ;)

truestory

02-12-00, 03:46 PM

Flash,

It seems that, four pages later, we are back to where this portion of the discussion first started:

Not everything Jesus said or did is contained in the bible... simple as that

What else contains Jesus' teachings which demonstrates to you that He taught more about hell and less about love?

truestory

02-12-00, 05:17 PM

tiassa,

If you believe that it is reasonable to consider the deliverance of myself and my coworkers from being crushed to death by a runaway station wagon to be the work of the devil, and... if you believe that it is reasonable to consider the deliverance of a family member from a life of emotional torture to be the work of the devil, and... if you believe that it is reasonable to consider the deliverance of a family member from a fatal car crash to be the work of the devil, and... if you believe that it is reasonable to consider the deliverance of an acquaintance from being stabbed by her husband to be the work of the devil, and... if you believe that it is reasonable to consider the deliverance of a family member from being kidnapped to be the work of the devil, and... if you believe that it is reasonable to consider God's offer of deliverance through forgiveness for all things and His call to spread the Word about personal salvation through Jesus Christ to be the work of the devil... then, my answer to you is: If you feel the need to remind me that you choose to exercise your reasoning capabilities in such a manner then go for it, as many times as you like. It doesn't matter to me. However, before you spend your time printing such reminders, you might want to keep in mind that, given my experiences and the way I choose to exercise my reasoning capabilities, such reasoning (that the good fruits of said experiences might have been born through the power of something rotten and evil) is lost with me.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 12, 2000).]

Boris

02-12-00, 06:08 PM

truestory,

But what are the costs of such benefits? What's the net gain? I think that's the issue Tiassa (and the rest of us) had been trying to get at.

And additionally, why can't we achieve the same benefits through different means? Who has proven beyond all doubt that no alternatives to religion (or Christianity specifically) work at least as well?

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 12, 2000).]

Tony H2o

02-13-00, 09:15 PM

Flash,

I've just a couple of mins and have briefly read the converstaions over the last few days.

I have one question.

Do you want me to respond and share further what I think and believe about your experiences or is your mind already made up?
No kidding involved I'm serious..

All I can see at the moment is a lot of the same thats been going on here for over a year. I have shared some things that are very close and dear to me Flash as I know you have. Personnaly I think if your mind is made up then I will shut up because the stew of delussion has made talk cheap and nothing I say, nothing TS says, nothing Lori says will matter. If your mind is made up Flash then I will hand you over to whatever and whoever you want to put your faith in. But Flash please be aware that in the background I will be remembering you and others in my time before my King. And it will only be by His grace and soverign hand that your eyes will see and your heart will hear.

Lori, TS and other Christians,

I have or should I say had a cousin who died from a drug related murder on the weekend. I will be going to the funeral some time this week and would appreciate greatly if you could pray that our Father gives me the right and wise words to say to my family who are all unsaved.

Thanks

Tony

H2o

Flash

02-13-00, 09:33 PM

Tony,
First, I am sorry about the loss of your cousin.

Second, I must be honest in that my beliefs are as strong as yours, TS, Lori's, etc...
so..I agree..it would be best to end this debate... I appreciate the concern you and others have shown as I feel that intentions were sincere.

Take care,
Flash

Tiassa

02-13-00, 10:13 PM

Truestory--

I just find it ironic that you know better what Flash sees than she does.

If Flash is wrong about the source of her experiences, might not you also be?

It must work both ways, else it works not at all.

Ordinarily I would trust that one sees what they see, but by what principle do you declare your better knowledge?

Oh, that's right ... you're part of the privileged people who know so deeply that they're right that what they're right about has no need to make any sense whatsoever.

--Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

truestory

02-14-00, 04:08 AM

Tony,

My sympathy and prayers are with you and your family.

It sounds like you and your family are going through a rough time right now. (How is your father doing?)

May the Good Lord deliver you and your family from your sorrow through His strength, wisdom and love.

Peace be with you.

truestory

02-14-00, 04:34 AM

tiassa,

The current discussion with Flash does not concern what Flash sees. It concerns a lie which she has been told by her source which she accepts as truth.

There are many times when things don't work both ways... this is one of them.

truestory

02-14-00, 04:41 AM

Flash,

It seems that, four pages later, we are back to where this portion of the discussion first started:

quote:
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Not everything Jesus said or did is contained in the bible... simple as that
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What else contains Jesus' teachings which demonstrates to you that He taught more about hell and less about love?

Thanks...

truestory

02-14-00, 04:47 AM

Boris,

But what are the costs of such benefits? What's the net gain?

What "benefits" are you referring to?

Flash

02-14-00, 05:27 AM

TS,
You are asking me to come up with documented sources..off the top of my head right now..I cannot provide such... I do know that Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven according to the bible..but, I guess that is neither here nor there... I know what I have been taught and that is what I'm standing on.

MoonCat

02-14-00, 12:16 PM

Truestory~

Sorry to butt in, but I wanted to make a little point...

This is regarding the comment that your experiences with God might have been actually experiences with "Satan". You made a list of things that had happened and asked if those things could be the works of the devil.

I'm not trying to say that they are, but I wanted to point something out, for your pondering enjoyment:

The BEST lie is 99% truth.

What if (and, again, I'm not saying this IS the case, I'm just saying IF) these acts WERE acts of the "Devil" and he was just trying to get you on his side/convince you he was one of the good guys?

Do you think that's possible? How would you know FOR SURE these weren't a batch of outrageous tricks designed to draw you away from the truth? Surely a very powerful being, even an evil one, could fake love and compassion (heck, look at any horny 15 year old boy, they fake love great!), don't you think?

I'm curious to see what you think. I'm not trying to pick a fight, by the way, hope that came accross well. :)

truestory

02-14-00, 06:40 PM

MoonCat,

Hope all is going well for you and your family... Nice to see you here... :)

With respect to your questions:

What if (and, again, I'm not saying this IS the case, I'm just saying IF) these acts WERE acts of the "Devil" and he was just trying to get you on his side/convince you he was one of the good guys?

Do you think that's possible? How would you know FOR SURE these weren't a batch of outrageous tricks designed to draw you away from the truth? Surely a very powerful being, even an evil one, could fake love and compassion

First, let me say that I am well aware of the potential power of the deceptive one... I had a very real experience with the deceptive one when it came to me in the form of my loving husband. THAT was an outrageous trick designed to draw me away from the truth. I thank God for giving me the ability to see it for what it was and for delivering me from the potential evil outcome of that situation also.

As far as my other experiences described, don't get me wrong, it's not that I believe that there was no "evil" force at work in any of these experiences. To the contrary, that is what caused the need for positive intervention in the first place. There were two separate and distinct forces at work in all of the situations described. I explained the "good" force above... the one that delivered family members from evil... Here, I will explain the "evil" force which was at work:

It was evil at work which caused the teenagers to steal the car... Without going into detail concerning the circumstances, it was evil at work which caused the emotional torture of a family member... It was evil at work which caused the husband to want to stab his wife... It was evil at work which caused someone to drive under the influence and cause a fatal crash... It was evil at work which caused a man to attempt to kidnap my daughter... It is evil at work which causes our need for personal salvation.

Consider for yourself what you truly know about the nature of and the difference between that which is evil and that which is good and apply it to the situations which I have described.

If one considers your hypothesis, in order to accept it, one would have to deny the positive intervention and good outcome of the experiences and look upon those good things as evil... Or one would have to believe that evil has the potential to do good (to have a good side)... One would also have to conclude that the deliverance "from" evil in these situations equated to evil (quite a contradiction). In order to come to such a conclusion, one would also need to rationalize that there was no power at work except that of evil and, that good and evil are actually the same.

If one were somehow actually able to bring themself to do that, then that would be the ultimate deception. This type of deception is not uncommon, however. This type of deception (turning good into evil and vice-versa) is very much at work in this present world. This is the ultimate deception which paralyzes and blinds people from moving forward and seeing the truth.