I found this argument online, and I found it compelling enough to start a thread about it.
I have no idea if these scriptures (below)are genuine or if they are in context, this is why I am asking for your opinions.
If you have an opinion or evidence that relates to this topic please feel free to post it here.

NB: (My past generational family were owned as slaves, by so called respected religious socialists. The stories Ive heard are beyond comprehension.)
_________________________________________________
If fundamentalist Christians are right--that the Bible is the literal word of God, then God evidently approved of slavery...or did he? The following rules of behavior are spoken of by Moses in Leviticus

Leviticus 25:44-46 (NIV) "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
Leviticus 25:44-46 (KJV): "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."

Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV): "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property"

Exodus 21:20-21 (KVJ) "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."
__________________________________________________ _

If this is true, then I wonder if this makes the people of today and the Slaves of yesteryear feel better or worse about the fate past generations endured at the hands of Slave traders.
It would seem the Bible did not frown upon the use of slaves and the indignity they endured.
__________________________________________________ _

Feel free to add your related views.


Just a further Note..........This is not a racial debate!
Cheers
RazZ:D

"It would seem the Bible did not frown upon the use of slaves and the indignity they endured."

It didn't frown upon slavery. Nowhere does it say it accepted the "indignity."

"Slavery" has been around forever. Perhaps you've heard of Serfs. Perhaps you've worked for a large corporation.

Slavery is what happens when there's no other way to support yourself. Women could whore themselves out (and still do) if they could find no other means to support themselves. "If the catholic church had let me put this rubber thing on my cock I wouldn't have this problem but unfortunatly it's medical experiments for the lot of you."

What happened to the Africans was wrong because it was forced on them. Nowhere does the Bible endorse forcing people into slavery. It allows the buying of people who have wasted their lives and ended up slaves of their own doing.

It really bugs me that you try to get pity from people from what happened to your family generations ago. It was wrong what happened to them but we have done nothing to you and you deserve nothing in return.

Ben

I think you need to get your facts straight.
At no point did I ask for pity.
The fact I mentioned my Families past link was merely to make sure I was not shot down for being pro slavery.

I was attempting to find out if, Slavery is still accepted in some countries as being viable, because the bible did not and does not frown upon it.

By the way, not all slaves world wide are black or african, who brought the racial aspect to this thread? ....hmmmm.

Slavery is not about Racism, please look up the word Slave then get back to me;)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can hardly compare working for a corporation with slavery.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(KalvinB) :Slavery is what happens when there's no other way to support yourself. Women could whore themselves out (and still do) if they could find no other means to support themselves.
"AND"
Nowhere does the Bible endorse forcing people into slavery. It allows the buying of people who have wasted their lives and ended up slaves of their own doing.
__________________________________________________

wow what an EDUCATED opinion...NOT!
Slavery in general is not about choice, and I pity you if you believe any of the crap you just posted.
Read what the bible wrote again, these people were beaten, bought and sold, they were not free.
.................................................. .................................................. .
SLAVE: Pronunciation: (slAv), [key]
—n., v., slaved, slav•ing. —n.
1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another, and is bound by absolute obedience.
2. a victim entirely under the domination of some influence, in order to carry out manual labor.
.................................................. .................................................. .

RazZ

"Slavery in general is not about choice"

Once you are a slave you have only the choices your master gives you. Before you are a slave you have the choice to avoid ending up being a slave. They got in their predicament the same way prostitutes do. I realize you missed the connection.

"The fact I mentioned my Families past link was merely to make sure I was not shot down for being pro slavery."

And what I said was that it has no relevance to the topic.

I mentioned Africans only because you mentioned your family and because they were from Africa and because they, unlike Bible allows, were forced to be slaves.

"By the way, not all slaves world wide are black or african"

Duh. Did I say they were?

Pay attention and listen so we don't have to waste time spelling simple concepts out. Are you just looking for a flame war?

Ben

Before you are a slave you have the choice to avoid ending up being a slaveAnd how is that? To charge the line and let the slave-hunters drop you? This is, incidentally, reflective of my charge that Christian faith is blackmail. You are choosing between options, one of which is profoundly negative.

Before you were raped you had the choice to avoid being raped.

When you consider that the choice is to struggle and have a knife jammed into your skull, what choice is there?And what I said was that it has no relevance to the topicActually, KalvinB, what you said was, It really bugs me that you try to get pity from people from what happened to your family generations ago. It was wrong what happened to them but we have done nothing to you and you deserve nothing in return.

And it's worth pointing out here that what is important about the sins of Christians past is that the devices by which they justified those heinous acts still exist. Just because Christians can't murder people with government endorsement anymore doesn't mean they're not trying to suppress cultures. Book burnings and all manner of antiexpressionism, state-sponsored ostracism of those Christians declare opponents, demands of state-sponsored religion, ad nauseam. What is it about Christians that it's not well enough to live beside their neighbors? Why is it so important to establish Christian dominion among your neighbors? I mean, there are Christians working out there to write the public school curriculum because they have didn't like science class. Nothing bodes well for a superstitious enterprise (e.g. religion) like an uneducated populace.Pay attention and listen so we don't have to waste time spelling simple concepts out. Are you just looking for a flame war?Then don't waste time on useless concepts, KalvinB. Your self-righteousness has nothing to do with the issues at stake here. I'd say you're looking for the flame war, just like you've always been. Why don't you take a deep breath, chill out, and stop operating by principles that you refuse to apply equally. The bible didn't speak of indignity? Of course not; it would cast man's relationship with God in an undignified light. What, just because the bible doesn't mention the dignity of slaves means there were no issues of dignity? It's forced servitude. Hello? What, the reduction of humans to pack animals doesn't invite questions of dignity?

If I hold you to your own posting standards, KalvinB and respond according to what you've shown in similar style, we can have a massive flame war.

You could, instead, point out the comparative studies on the treatment of slaves in Abramic religions; you could look to those studies that compare slavery systems worldwide and throughout history. There's plenty of data on it; in fifth grade (at public school) I recall reading a fairly graphic diary entry in which a slave trader running merchandise to the Americas wrestled with his conscience. That would help shed some light on slavery and the Bible. There exists any number of studies to clarify the nature of biblical slavery and justify it from there.

But you haven't. You've chosen to say, "they may have done it but we haven't." If it's aways they of the past versus we of the present, what the hell point does the Bible have, anyway? By the we/they standard, it's out of date and therefore irrelevant.

Don't reduce the topic to your pride; it nakedly shows you gearing up for the flame war you seem to hope for.

--Tiassa :cool:

"Slavery" is forced servetude of those who let themselves sink to such depths. Like prostitutes. Prostitution is a form of slavery. No one forced prostitutes into protestution.

The Israelites were not commanded to go force people to become slaves. They were allowed to own those who were already slaves.

Not a difficult concept. Your little rant missed that concept so I'm not sure what you're talking about as it had nothing to do with anything I said.

Care to try again?

As for "it doesn't apply." What are you talking about? The laws of slavery still apply in many countries and businesses. What doesn't apply is the idea that since someone's relative was made a slave, they themselves should be given special treatment. Only their relative deserves some retribution for being forced into such circumstances. If a business sells off an employee to another business which then lays them off or treats them poorly, 40 years from now, their kids do not deserve retribution for their grandfather being laid off.

Once again, not a hard concept.

Would you like to try again?

Ben

Have you hear of any slave who also earn wages in currency form? Or you are saying that slavery has advanced over these years, and now slaves can also earn money and no longer being owned?

What is the purpose of a wage?

To eat, have a house and get to work and support a family. The classical slave was given everything they needed. The modern corporate slave is handed just enough in the form of a check to buy those things themselves.

As there were good masters that would give more than enough to the classical slave, there are good corporations that give more than enough to their employees.

It hasn't advanced. It's just taken different forms and we have laws in the corporate version to make it less slave like.

Is it really "freedom" to be able to quite one master only to be forced to work for another?

Ben

Slavery" is forced servetude of those who let themselves sink to such depths. KalvinB would you care to give your words another moment's thought?

I'd ask you to justify your statement, but I'm not sure that you can. You're welcome to try.

In the meantime, if you really want to pull your head out of your ass and wipe that shite off your stupid grinning face and give that one another go, we'll all be happy to let you try to move from repugnant to confused.

Surprise us, KalvinB. Show us that you're not really as stupid as that quote makes you out to be.

And the world sees it, too, so you don't get to duck this one by saying you didn't write it.

Oh, what ... ghostwriters again?As for "it doesn't apply." What are you talking about? The laws of slavery still apply in many countries and businesses. What doesn't apply is the idea that since someone's relative was made a slave, they themselves should be given special treatment. Only their relative deserves some retribution for being forced into such circumstances.And when someone comes walking up, in the name of peace, and offers the same line of horsepucky that one's relatives/ancestors were given? What about that, KalvinB? I suppose they owe it to the current generation to sincerely believe that the same ideas won't have the same result?

When you wake up and someone's killed your son, and the law won't prosecute his murderer because the law says that according to God, your son was bad and therefore a threat and even though the killer broke into your son's house and killed him, it was still self-defense .... Okay ... when you wake up and that's your day, what should one think? The Chrisitans tried to pull that one in Oregon: they literally could have gotten away with murder if you followed the trail on paper. Yeah ... it's not the past. It's the fact that the present is rife with the same kind of craptacular, toxic hatred as the past. Nobody resents you because someone three hundred years ago killed their great-great-great-great-great-great-great uncle's second cousin twice removed. But people will resent you when you stand up and voice the opinions, devices, morals, and ethics of the murderers in that history.

But that was an absolutely repugnant assertion, KalvinB.

Disgraceful.

F--k!

You ought to spend some quiet time alone with God. If He's that important to you, something tells me He's got a few important things to whisper to your soul. And it sounds like you really, really need to hear them.

:rolleyes:,
Tiassa :cool:

Like I said, what are you talking about, Tiassa? I really don't care to try to defend myself against things I'm not even saying.

Slavery, like prostitution and homelessness is sometimes a result of personal bad choices in life.

Not a hard concept.

Would you like to try again?

Ben

Slavery, like prostitution and homelessness is sometimes a result of personal bad choices in life.

Not a hard concept.

Would you like to try again?Actually, KalvinB, if you're going to defend that heinous statement, we might ask you to demonstrate it. I figured there might be something I was missing, but it appears there's not. It appears you actually are willing to stand behand that unadulterated horsesh-t without correction.

So ... somebody is holding you and forcing you to labor without recompense and I would like you to describe to me by what conditions that is your fault.

Because right now you're reiterating the same problem I have with the petty and jealous God of the Bible.

What choices warrant slavery?

Take an analogous example, though it seems to blow by you Christians every time. That it blows by Christians is a little frightening; either you have no response (unable) or do not wish to justify yourselves (unwilling). Those who are unable to understand the idea are important because we might be able to make them see the error of the logic. Those who are unwilling only lend toward the darker whisperings about the nature of Christianity.

Very simply, now:

Imagine, KalvinB, that you are walking home from the bar and five vicious thugs working for the Catholic-atheist-homosexual conspiracy ( :rolleyes: ) grab you, haul you into an alley, beat you, and proceed to gang-rape you. Tell me, KalvinB, why would you be so stupid as to let that happen to you?

Another version:

Imagine your sister walking out to her car after work, and suddenly she is pulled into a van where a knife is put to her throat ordering her to sexually service the attacker or die. Tell me, KalvinB, why did your sister want to be attacked?

Now, are we there yet?

Imagine that your young daughter is kidnapped from her bed at night and turns up six months later dead on the outskirts of the city. The medical examination shows she has been raped. The criminal investigation gets lucky and nails the weak link in the operation, and you discover that for those six months your daughter was a forced prostitute in a crack house. What bad personal choices did your daughter make that resulted in her slavery?

Imagine that you live in a small country with natural resources that catch the eye of your neighbors. Imagine that the neighboring nation invades your nation. Imagine that despite your people's best efforts, they are overrun, and that your men are made to be laborers and your women to be prostitutes. Incidentally, here I'm thinking of a little spat in the middle of the twentieth century involving certain nations in Asia. What choices did those women make to warrant their sexual slavery? I was reading the start of a well-tread topic today and came across a certain sentiment which seems here apropos:If religions had not existed then the widespread acceptance that life was cheap might not have occurred. If instead death had been accepted as a final end, then the short duration of human life would have been highly valued and fewer risks would been taken that would have resulted in death. With such a significant change in human attitudes it is highly likely that far fewer wars, if any, would have taken place; very few would have wanted to risk their short lives. (Cris, Inevitable Evil of Religious Belief, topic post, 9/3/01)I see a reduction of the value of human life in such justifications for slavery as the beastly, pustulous excuse you offered. Dignity does exist somewhere inside the range of slavemaster to dead. The reduction of human dignity inherent in assigning such status as slave to a human being is less subtle than killing them, but seems equally monstrous at least.

You're quite sick, KalvinB. Seek help. Not just from the god inside your head; I'd recommend a man of God, or better yet a psychologist.

God be damned if that's the way.

--Tiassa :cool:

Like I said Tiassa, you have no idea what I'm talking about.

It's quite simple and nothing like you make it out to be.

Ben

KalvinB

It is noted that you are unwilling to support your assertion that slavery is a choice.

--Tiassa :cool:

No, I'm unwilling to support your BS you've been posting by even acknowledging it.

Once again reason fails you.

Ben

*Originally posted by razz
I am Indigineous by decent*

What other way could you be indigenous?

*The fact I mentioned my Families past link was merely to make sure I was not shot down for being pro slavery.*

You're claiming to be a native American slave?

*You can hardly compare working for a corporation with slavery. *

People working for a corporation refer to themselves as slaves, and I'll bet they are more certain of that than they are of calling themselves Christian, in a lot of cases.

*Slavery in general is not about choice*

Is it about the color of the drapes, then?

*1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another, and is bound by absolute obedience.*

Military and sports figures come to mind.
Are you planning to protest against slavery in the military?

*2. a victim entirely under the domination of some influence, in order to carry out manual labor.*

Some influence, like money or lack of it, perhaps?

*Originally posted by tiassa
You are choosing between options, one of which is profoundly negative.*

DUHHHHH!!!
Are your brains on vacation?

Work or starve.
Live or die.
Check both ways or get run over.
Shit or explode.
Use your brains or post at sciforums under the name tiassa.

One option is ALWAYS negative, and theoretically it would be the one you reject.
Unless, of course you consider yourself like the ass who starves between two bales of hay because it can't decide which to eat.

As per usual, Tony has no idea.
He takes a thread... strips the meaning from it then adds a dash of idiotic bullshit, with a twist of try hard pretend intelect.

Tony grow a brain...
are you not able to ever answer a thread/post properly?
or is that beyond you and the braincell you share with your ass?

Firstly ...... Indigenous in Australia means "Aboriginal"
Secondly ... in my culture you can be adopted into the aboriginal family and call yourself aboriginal by concent of th elders ....
thats why i said by decent .

Not once did i claim i was anything but an indigenous decendant, how american natives came into this ill never know.
(Tony's warped mind again or maybe a spirit of God told him)

Slavery is not about choice, slaves dont choose to be slaves, they are bought and sold, whipped, beaten and in general wernt paid.
( too hard for Tony's pee brain to understand no doubt)

I wont even bother giving Tony a hard on by responding to the rest of his manipulative, evangilist pellucid brained remarks.

I am pretty much fed up with Tony's bullshit antics in here, he has no value, other than to antagonise other members and probably masturbate while doing it.

I dont claim that my posts are of any benifit to other members but i do claim to at least remotely stick to original topics posted and i at least give people food for thought , even if that means making them decide wich side of any given line they are on.

Yes i know Tony will pull this post to peices, his child like IQ wont allow any opportunity to slip by ,when he can cut someone down while hiding behind his faith in God...
I dont give two shits about what Tony1 does from this point on unless it has some merit relating directly in an adult fashion to the threads original intent.
Opinions are welcomed if they are Related To The Thread Posted, and not just another Tony play circus event.

Tony1... I wonder if you pray to your God each night and ask to be forgiven for being such a total waste of space and a complete Dimwitt ...maybe you should pray for wisdom and some intelligence...meanwhile ill pray to Your God to Give me patience to deal with complete assholes like you.

See what happens when you spare the Rod?it spoils the child! exibit (1) = Tony1


cheers
RazZ
:cool:

Razz:
"You can hardly compare working for a corporation with slavery."

Two words: "social engineering."

I witnessed it at work in the LDS church, my uncle uses it where he works, and I see it at work even on these forums.

JesusSaves made (possibly unknowingly) a comment recognizing a symptom of it.

You should really learn how cults work because their techniques are used everywhere. If you don't recognize it, you'll be sucked in and never know what hit you.

Ben

Once you are a slave you have no choice. You had a choice before you became a slave.

Not a hard concept.

Ben

( KalvinB said : ..."Slavery" has been around forever. Perhaps you've heard of Serfs. Perhaps you've worked for a large corporation. )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just wondering if the Type of corporate slaves Kalvin talks about, can quit their job and go elsewhere?

Wonders if Kalvins slaves were whipped and beaten as stated in the original thread from the bible......or if these corporations can "will" slaves to their children as inherited property and make them slaves for life?
NO? hmm ..how about.... "If a corporation beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, is the corporation only punished only if the slave dies?
The corporation is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is the corporation property"!

Read the original thread, and let go on the grip you have,
(its turning purple) ...and get a grip on Reality instead.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


1) It would seem the Bible did not frown upon the use of slaves,
This being so...how do you feel about the fate past generations endured at the hands of Slave traders protected by the bible?

2) Where the profits wrong in writing about the use of slaves in such an acceptable manner?

3) The religious live and preach, oh and lets not forget die by the writings and opinions held in the bible.
They see all that these prophets have written as Gods word.
I get told all the time I've sinned against God by having sex before marriage, others are told the same for having children out of wedlock, and various other notions because the bible says so.
So why then do the Religious pick and choose writings they choose to live by when it suits them or their culture.
If the bible is the word of God and it says.... its ok to have slaves or various other accepted ideas of the prophits... then why are some of these ideas outlawed and shunned today by both religious morals and man made law?

4) Or does mans opinion outstrip those that write with the hand of God?
Either follow all the Bible teachings and opinions or none at all, the choice is yours.

Personaly i think the Bible is out of date, the religious need to realise this and do something about it or get back to honouring all of the bibles words.

Bring on Bill Gates word of testiment!

( ps:........ No Tony1 and KalvinB....you can't have a slave for christmas not even if they have ...(as KalvinB said) "wasted their lives and ended up slaves of their own doing.

Have a great day
cheers
RazZ

[In the voice of Rod Serling]Mr. K says, "I submit to you for your approval, a word, one single word: Hypocrite.
[end Serling impression]

This is the the motivating force of many many people, they do as they please, and use the Bible to JUSTIFY their acts. Then when they DISLIKE somehting, they call it sinful (with or without Biblical refrence).

"The purpose of all organized religion, is to control the masses by mystical means." Karl Marx (most probably the BEST of the 19th century economists, but his politics needed work).

Yes, tiassa, I hear a rant forming...

The use of slaves is protected by the Bible. The abuse some of them suffered in not.

For what reason would an israelite be allowed to beat a slave? Did you ask and find an answer to that or do you just assume that the Israelite slave owners could be as mean and vile as they wanted?

In Euripades (sp?) the father tied up a slave who had killed another slave and went to seek council for what he should do. The slave died from exposure and the father was placed on trial for murder.

You read between the wrong lines and then get all pissed. Not all slave owners were abusive jackasses. Historical slave owners actually had responsibilities to the slaves as well.

Ben

Your opininion is noted, you defend the rights of slave traders, fair enough, each to their own.

But not all slave masters etc were nice and polite.
Im sure by your standards.. some were reasonably pleasant compared to others, that still doesnt change the fact a slave is a slave, reguardless of good or bad ownership.
If a slaves were there by choice they would be known as an employee or a title of that nature.
The bible teaches of free will also.

My opinion is there is no such thing as a Good slave master, slavery is wrong on any level that declines a human being their right to freedom.

Slavery is still condoned in the bible, as are many other activities that are illegal in todays western societies... the days of old were indeed brutal..hopefully something positive was learned, although from what i see today in the news around the world... the mentality of some hasnt changed.

All are equal in the eyes of the lord as the religious often point out...or do slaves not fit in that catagory?.

Have a great day
and welcome to '2002'
cheers
RazZ

*Originally posted by razz
is that beyond you and the braincell you share with your ass?*

You must be built funny, I don't share braincells with my ass.

*Firstly ...... Indigenous in Australia means "Aboriginal"
Secondly ... in my culture you can be adopted into the aboriginal family and call yourself aboriginal by concent of th elders ....
thats why i said by decent .

Not once did i claim i was anything but an indigenous decendant, how american natives came into this ill never know. *

So, you're aussie?

---in·dig·e·nous (n-dj-ns)
adj.

1. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. See Synonyms at native.
2. Intrinsic; innate.---

I defer to your use of the word "indigenous," however, the idea is contradictory to the best results in your life.
First, I doubt that you are a naturally occurring creature of the area you live in.
Second, defining yourself in a limiting way, will only bring on limits.
Had you never brought up the issue of being "indigenous," I would have treated you as any other person on earth.
Now, I can only deal with you as a self-limiting individual.

*Slavery is not about choice, slaves dont choose to be slaves, they are bought and sold, whipped, beaten and in general wernt paid.*

Some were like that.
The truth is, "slave" simply presupposes "master."

*pellucid brained*

Unique descriptive.

*I dont claim that my posts are of any benifit to other members but i do claim to at least remotely stick to original topics posted and i at least give people food for thought , even if that means making them decide wich side of any given line they are on.*

Ditto.
You've got plenty of food for thought in my posts, but you choose to waste it on getting pissed off.

*Opinions are welcomed if they are Related To The Thread Posted*

OK, do you realize that you are a slave to your own point of view?
Do you realize that your slavery extends to the complete inability to think anything other than what you just wrote?
Is that slavery by choice, or by force?

*ill pray to Your God to Give me patience to deal with complete assholes like you.*

You do realize that if you ask believing that you will receive, you will get patience?
Have you thought of the ramifications of such a request?
Specifically, how one actually gets patience, and knows it?

*This being so...how do you feel about the fate past generations endured at the hands of Slave traders protected by the bible?*

But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
(Deuteronomy 28:15,16, KJV).

I cant read you ..kkkk ...Tony1... come in Tony1.....kkkkk
Have a lovely sun shiney, funtastic day.
cheers
RazZ
:D


ps :
Tony 1 says:
I defer to your use of the word "indigenous," however, the idea is contradictory to the best results in your life.
First, I doubt that you are a naturally occurring creature of the area you live in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raz says:
Oh so i was bio-bred, maybe test tube? ermm... or did i just occur through and accident in my fathers homebrew beer kit?

*Originally posted by razz
Oh so i was bio-bred, maybe test tube? ermm... or did i just occur through and accident in my fathers homebrew beer kit? *

Maybe it's that last one, he could have had a few too many.

I'm guessing you were born in a building of some kind like most people.
Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant when you said indigenous.
Did you mean indigenous to your house?

In any case, I'm thinking you could move beyond "indigenous" and consider yourself "human" like the rest of us.
What is it you think you will gain by referring to yourself as "indigenous?"

Why the hell do I seem to be defending myself over racial issues,
So far ive been abused for being a black african who is seeking pity.
Then I was classified as a Native american doing the same..
Now im being hassled for being Indigenous Australian(aboriginal)

I think some people have some major racial issues to deal with in themselves, Tony1 you should be ashamed, you are supposed to be a sweet religious man of God, racism doesnt become you.

I dont see how race, Indigenous or not, makes a difference ...slavery is slavery.

This post was about slaves in the bible,and the fact God seems not to have frowned upon it.
Reguardless of what anyone thinks, my opinion is that slavery is Wrong Wrong so Totally Wrong, you cannot take a persons free Will and enslave them just because you think you are better.
Nor do you have the right to beat them, if they have committed a crime, thats what the laws are for.

(If fair physical force is needed to stop a crime being committed by anyone, slave or not,then i say fair enough)

But read the bible see what kind of morals these guys had compared to today.
They weren't sweet and cuddly they were rough and hard and willing to slit a beasts throat for dinner.
They were people trying to survive in a rough world.

I still feel no matter what your hardship, making anothers life harder by enslaving them to make your life better is wrong.
After all are we not all *(1)equal unto the eyes of the lord?

*(2)Do unto others, as you would have them do, unto you.
Or do the religious pick and choose wich scriptures to follow?
Oops sorry the bible says its All Good ta keep slaves, which contradicts the past two scriptures i just refered to.

Cheers
RazZ:D

Razz welcome to Tony's Religion 101. :O)
He has to use your race against you untill he finds something better to nullify and invalidate your ideas and feelings. You could tell him you smoke pot, have hormones, love animals....etc etc etc if you would rather he used some other petty litttle issue against you. :O)

Nobody used anybody's race against anybody.

I don't know what you two are talking about.

Ben

Hello Tony2...long time no chat. Hows the new year going?
Just continue to act like you don't know "what" we are talking about, like you do not see how Tony goes for any straw he can grasp to invalidate and insult someone so he can be "above" haveing to give them any consideration. Notice you and him have an odd little relationship going.....perhaps loveing himself so much dictates that he must love you. :D

Yer take that Tony1 and Tony2...lmfao
Its just too funny!. :p

By the way T1 and T2...ever watched the movie ..."king of kings" the...Cecil. B.DeMille version of the bible.
Oh and lets no forget "Sparticus"...and many other such people and movies based on apparent real life.

Hmmm just love how caring them slave drivers are to them lucky to be employed slaves... NOT!!!!!

Cheers
RazZ:D

Yup yup.

Ben

*Originally posted by razz
Why the hell do I seem to be defending myself over racial issues,
So far ive been abused for being a black african who is seeking pity.
Then I was classified as a Native american doing the same..
Now im being hassled for being Indigenous Australian(aboriginal)*

None of the above.
We're hassling you for being stupid, nothing personal.
What do you think "being indigenous" has to do with anything?
Do you think the color of your skin or the place your mother gave birth to you actually means that you are wiser, or more foolish, so that we should treat you differently?

*I think some people have some major racial issues to deal with in themselves, Tony1 you should be ashamed, you are supposed to be a sweet religious man of God, racism doesnt become you.*

I am merely pointing out your own racism.
I didn't care what race you were until you brought it up.

*I dont see how race, Indigenous or not, makes a difference ...slavery is slavery.*

That's more like it.
We have now defined slavery as...well...slavery.
At least that's better than not defining it at all, I suppose.

*This post was about slaves in the bible,and the fact God seems not to have frowned upon it.
Reguardless of what anyone thinks, my opinion is that slavery is Wrong Wrong so Totally Wrong, you cannot take a persons free Will and enslave them just because you think you are better.*

That's great, so what do you have as your basis for such a belief?

*Nor do you have the right to beat them, if they have committed a crime, thats what the laws are for.*

The laws are for beating people?

*They weren't sweet and cuddly they were rough and hard and willing to slit a beasts throat for dinner.*

Where do you think meat in a store comes from?
Do you think that the animals are volunteering the various cuts on sale?

*After all are we not all *(1)equal unto the eyes of the lord?*

No, the wicked are still going to end up in the lake of fire.

*(2)Do unto others, as you would have them do, unto you.
Or do the religious pick and choose wich scriptures to follow?
Oops sorry the bible says its All Good ta keep slaves, which contradicts the past two scriptures i just refered to.*

Aside from the fact that it doesn't say that, the golden rule is still good.

*Originally posted by Taken
untill he finds something better to nullify and invalidate your ideas and feelings.*

Who's doing that?
I'm sorry if I'm nullifying you.
I'm sorry but now that I've written that I can't help but notice that you are complaining about me turning you into a zero.
I am now thinking that you're pretty much doing that on your own.
But, thanks for the laugh, I needed that.
:D:D:D:D:D

*perhaps loveing himself so much dictates that he must love you.*

Poor Taken.
Hey, I'm actually sorry if you feel like you're getting the short end of the stick, but you do have to admit that you wish to take charge of the discussions.
Me, on the other hand, well I can just go with the flow, or against it, depending on your POV.

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
(James 2:8, KJV).

See, Taken, there's a lot of love coming down that pipe if you think I love myself as much as you say.

*Originally posted by razz
Hmmm just love how caring them slave drivers are to them lucky to be employed slaves.*

Those were movies.

please read all the posts then comment on Tony's remarks that I am racist.
None of my comments are racist...infact....From what I see about my posts I keep trying to get back to slaves..and the bible.... "Tony1" and "kelvin" keep harping on race..and indigenous etc..and avoiding any points made in regard to the Original post.

also please comment on your views as per the original post
Thanks
cheers
RazZ:D

Ps: Tony those movies were based on the bible,
glad you understand they were movies.
And all of them portrayed the slaves as "lesser" members of society..so that means im not alone in my perception of slaves being treated badly in the bible .
.................................................. .................................................. ....
Nice also to see you ignored this remark i made in an earlier post.
Razz said:
I still feel no matter what your hardship, making anothers life harder by enslaving them to make your life better is wrong.
After all are we not all *(1)equal unto the eyes of the lord?

*(2)Do unto others, as you would have them do, unto you.
Or do the religious pick and choose wich scriptures to follow?
Oops sorry the bible says its All Good ta keep slaves, which contradicts the past two scriptures i just refered to.

*Originally posted by razz
please read all the posts then comment on Tony's remarks that I am racist.*

You brought up race, therefore you are racist.
No one else cared.

*"Tony1" and "kelvin" keep harping on race..and indigenous etc*

You brought it up.
Why do you think race has anything to do with slavery?

*Ps: Tony those movies were based on the bible,
glad you understand they were movies.
And all of them portrayed the slaves as "lesser" members of society..so that means im not alone in my perception of slaves being treated badly in the bible .*

OK, I admit that you perceive things as incorrectly as someone else.

*I still feel no matter what your hardship, making anothers life harder by enslaving them to make your life better is wrong. *

That's not the reason for slavery.

But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
...
He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.
(Deuteronomy 28:15,44, KJV).

*After all are we not all *(1)equal unto the eyes of the lord?*

Again, no.
The wicked end up in the lake of fire.

*(2)Do unto others, as you would have them do, unto you.
Or do the religious pick and choose wich scriptures to follow?
Oops sorry the bible says its All Good ta keep slaves, which contradicts the past two scriptures i just refered to. *

Again, again, no.
The Bible doesn't say it's good to keep slaves.
It says that if you refuse to listen to God, you'll end up as one.

Think of it this way....

God: Here's how to avoid being a slave
You, or someone: To hell with you, I know better.
God: That's not how to avoid being a slave
You, or someone: Slavery's no fun.

There ya go ....now continue reading your bible.

See the pretty colours...feel the love!
The bible looks good from your point of view huh?

Find the sciptures you like, Ignore the contadictions...have Faith that man has written the word of God exactly as your lord intended, sheesh.... man wouldnt write the bible and add to it in order to benifited his points of view, political ideals, personal gains or to justify his actions." thats proposterous.
(Even though Moses predicted it would happen! and later John confirmed it!)

To my knowledge, God can write for himself, he did give Ten Commandments in the form of stone tablets to Moses according to rumour.
Therefore i dont see why he needed man to try to decifer his words and foolishly scribble them down from his own point of veiw when he could have just zapped up a Users manual for humans to live by.
oh and because God is perfect and because he knows all,..
His version would not have a single contradiction.

I still believe man wrote the bible, there are to many contradictions
.................................................. .................................................. .

If enslavement is ok then why is it illegal these days?

You cant say you see all humans as equals then agree with enslavement
( for the last time.)
If the bible is the word of God and it says.... its ok to have slaves or various other accepted ideas of the prophits... then why are some of these ideas outlawed and shunned today by both religious morals and man made law?

4) Or does mans opinion outstrip those that write with the hand of God? is man saying the bibles teaching are out of date or the prophits were wrong?

Either follow "ALL" the Bible teachings and opinions or none at all, Tony! Cant have your cake and eat it too!

Cheers
RazZ:D

*Originally posted by razz
The bible looks good from your point of view huh?*

Yes.
But then again, I didn't take any magic shrooms.

*Find the sciptures you like, Ignore the contadictions...have Faith that man has written the word of God exactly as your lord intended, sheesh.... man wouldnt write the bible and add to it in order to benifited his points of view, political ideals, personal gains or to justify his actions." thats proposterous.
(Even though Moses predicted it would happen! and later John confirmed it!)*

There is that tiny issue of understanding the scriptures, which you don't have.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
(Luke 24:45, KJV).

*To my knowledge, God can write for himself, he did give Ten Commandments in the form of stone tablets to Moses according to rumour.*

That is correct.

*Therefore i dont see why he needed man to try to decifer his words and foolishly scribble them down from his own point of veiw when he could have just zapped up a Users manual for humans to live by.*

He just wanted to mess with your head.
He told Moses to write it all down.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
(Exodus 34:27, KJV).

Notice the word "tenor?"

*If enslavement is ok then why is it illegal these days?*

If abortion is not OK then why is it legal?
Simple answer: people are idiots.

*You cant say you see all humans as equals then agree with enslavement
( for the last time.) *

For the last time, people aren't equals.
The wicked end up in the lake of fire.

*If the bible is the word of God and it says.... its ok to have slaves or various other accepted ideas of the prophits... then why are some of these ideas outlawed and shunned today by both religious morals and man made law?*

Duhhhh, the Bible doesn't say it's OK to have slaves, it says what to do to avoid being one.
If you don't listen, you end up as a slave.

*4) Or does mans opinion outstrip those that write with the hand of God? is man saying the bibles teaching are out of date or the prophits were wrong?*

Man generally thinks so, but it ain't so.

*Either follow "ALL" the Bible teachings and opinions or none at all, Tony! Cant have your cake and eat it too!*

Sounds like what you want is for me to follow YOUR opinions and teachings.
No thanks.

But, I can have my cake and eat it, too.
In God's economy, nothing ever runs out.

Tony1Notice the word "tenor?"What, now you're onto opera metaphors? Give it up, Tony1.

--Tiassa :cool:

(See? It's not that hard to do. It's why I tell you to do better. I mean, it's really easy to be as pointless as you. Hmm ... maybe I should become Christian. Then I can be this pointless all the time! :D )

.................................................. .................................................
(quote)RazZ:-------
*You cant say you see all humans as equals then agree with enslavement
( for the last time.) *

(quote)Tony1:-----
For the last time, people aren't equals.
The wicked end up in the lake of fire.
(end quote)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you are sayin all people who were slaves and currently are slaves world wide are wicked/sinners?
Didnt think you were allowed to pass judgement on others in your religion, I thought that was Your Gods job.

.................................................. .................................................

(QUOTE) RazZ:--------
*If the bible is the word of God and it says.... its ok to have slaves or various other accepted ideas of the prophits... then why are some of these ideas outlawed and shunned today by both religious morals and man made law?*

(Quote) Tony1:-------
Duhhhh, the Bible doesn't say it's OK to have slaves, it says what to do to avoid being one.
If you don't listen, you end up as a slave.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hate to break it to you "TONY1"..but re-read these scriptures..

If fundamentalist Christians are right--that the Bible is the literal word of God, then God evidently approved of slavery.
The following rules of behavior are spoken of by Moses in Leviticus

Leviticus 25:44-46 (NIV) "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
Leviticus 25:44-46 (KJV): "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."

Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV): "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property"

Exodus 21:20-21 (KVJ) "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."
__________________________________________________

Those particular quotes right from your very own bible, right from your very own precious "God's Word" writing prophets
They say quite clearly .. that slavery is cool, even sets out the ground rules, and where ta get ya slaves from...how to treat em and how ta pass em on through your family.....but I Just dont see any references that state these slaves must be sinners before they can be enslaved... Hmmm but hey... Im sure you will pull up a Quote out of context from some where else in the bible and try to convince me other wise.
Just read the damn Quotes and admit... the prophets sucked....they were mean pricks, they did as they pleased because they figured The peoples fear of God would let them have free reign...do do as they pleased.
We as a modern western Society saw the error of this injustice and made it illegal to have slaves.
That in itself states ..Mans law over powers Gods word when it suits!!!
----------------------------------------------------
(QUOTE) Razz:
Either follow "ALL" the Bible teachings and opinions or none at all, Tony! Cant have your cake and eat it too!

(QUOTE) Tony1:
But, I can have my cake and eat it, too.
In God's economy, nothing ever runs out.
.................................................. ................
You got me there Tony1... it would seem your RELIGIOUS BULLSHIT never runs out!.....However i notice the Evangelists money kinda must run out cause they allways making the people pay for Gods free love by asking the to send money etc...
-----------------------------------------------------
Oh and one more thing... if you are defending the bible, Then are you saying you agree with its policy of Slavery?

Direct Question deserves a straight up Answer.


Cheers
RazZ:D

Leviticus 25: 47-49
"And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family: After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him: Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself."

Perhaps if you'd read the rest of the story you'd see that it's talking about what we call "serfs" not "slaves" which is the NIV rendetion of "Bondmaid" and "Bondman" found in the KJV. What is a "bond?" It's what you pay to get out of captivity.

The "slaves" of the OT, as I said, were willing to be slaves and could be bought out of slavery by relatives.

They were not FORCED to be slaves. They CHOSE to be slaves for whatever reason.

Research SERFS.

Ben

So all slaves were enslaved because they chose to be hmm....please by all means read on....

The Curse of Ham:
The first mention of slavery appears in Genesis, when Noah cursed his grandson Canaan (and all of the descendants of Canaan) because Noah's son Ham had seen Noah naked:

Genesis 9:25-27: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave.' "

These verses appear to send a highly immoral message. Even if we assume that Ham's act is worthy of some kind of punishment, the curse does not punish the person responsible. It punishes the son of the perpetrator, and the son's descendants instead, forever. In all probability, Canaan was nowhere in the vicinity of Noah's tent when the event happened. Also it seems unreasonable to permanently enslave even a single descendent of the perpetrator for such a minor transgression - let alone his descendants forever.

This passage was one of the favorite of theologians who wished to justify slavery on Biblical grounds.

But of coarse this was voluntary slavery!!! NOT!

How about these...Passages from the Hebrew Scriptures which sanction slavery:

Slavery was sanctioned and carefully regulated by many passages in the Bible - mainly in the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Hebrew Scriptures - Old Testament).

Enslaving Women Captives: In a foreign war, an Israelite could take any woman as a slave-wife, even if it were against her will. He would put her through what could be regarded as a period of ritual abuse. If he later dislikes her, he can grant her freedom, but cannot sell her to another slave owner.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

Hmmmm sounds like these people chose to be slaves too...

The point is i have truckloads of bible texts that points out many people were forced into slavery.... you can quote from what evet part of the bible you like to make yourself feel better but the fact remains...slavery is slavery.
Not all slaves were voluntary, nor were all treated with respect or dignity.

cheers
RazZ:D

"And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."

Once again the NIV can't get it right. A servent falls under an entirely different set of laws than a bondmaid or bondman.

I don't see the second one saying anything about rape and the women is not forced to be a slave. She is forced to be his wife which entails an entirely different set of laws including birthrights to the first born which is talked about right after the part you quote.

You should learn to read more than others tell you to.

Ben

You should learn to read more..
Reread what is written in both scriptures... a servant is a slave, DUH!!!!

oh and as for the woman you speak of..
shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

erm slaves are sold for money...she cant be sold because of THOU HAST HUMBLED HER! wow another great thing the loving bible chats about... lets rape your enemy's women. woohooo you go boys... good work! your supposed to clap now KalvinB.


Cheers
RazZ:D

erm slaves are sold for money...she cant be sold because of THOU HAST HUMBLED HER! wow another great thing the loving bible chats about... lets rape your enemy's women. woohooo you go boys... good work! your supposed to clap now KalvinB. Unfortunately, KalvinB's got a point on you, Razz. As far as I can tell, the prevailing attitude in the US is that she wanted it.

You'll notice that those who claim the US's Christian heritage don't like to mention our attitudes among the results.

It's worth noting that I think all a woman has to do in this country to be subject to that standard is to breathe, and there are occasions where that doesn't seem to be among the criteria. It's one of the things about being American that I don't respect much, and it's one of the reasons I left the Christian tribe behind.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

You speak of "Christian tribe" as present tense as if that's actually the case. Any lame unfound accusation I suppose works for you as long as it's anti-Christian. Doesn't have to be accurate. Just anti-Christian.

The Israelites were divided into twelve "tribes." There was a system of law to support the tribal lifestyle.

In order to better understand the laws of the OT, you might want to study the general tribal culture. There are still plenty around.

Ben

"a servant is a slave, DUH!!!!"

Servant:

One who is privately employed to perform domestic services.

Slave:

One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.

Duh.

I think you should re read your BIBLE...for the word servant was used to describe slaves on literaly hundreds of occassions...
You and Tony1 often talk of literal definitions in biblical times being different from todays understanding of language
But of coarse that only applies when you wish to seem victorious.

Fact not all slaves chose to be slaves.
Fact not all slaves were treated well.
Fact not all slaves were paid.
Fact people sold their child into slavery.
Fact slaves were raped.
Fact slaves were beaten.
fact slave were NOT equals in society.
Fact the bible does not reject slavery.
Fact the bible sets out how to treat your slave and where to get one.
Fact religious and political enemies, ie... wife, children,and towns people were taken as slaves against their will.
Fact slavery is cruel and unjust in many cases.
Fact biblical slaves were lesser people in the eyes of God.
Fact NOT all slaves were sinners as Tony1 said.

You can quote your own facts but I know, slavery was in many instances, forced upon individuals and groups in biblical times as it is indeed still done today in some parts of the world.

By the way, I simply love how you "LIE" in your definitions of the words... bondsman....bondman....servant.
________________________________________________
bonds•man:Pronunciation: (bondz'mun), [key] —n., —pl. -men.Law. -men. -bondman.
:A person who by bond becomes surety for another.Also see, bond•man
_________________________________________________
bond•man:Pronunciation: (bond'mun), [key] —n., —pl. -men.
1. a male slave.
2. a man bound to service without wages.
3. Old Eng. Law.a villein or other unfree tenant. Also see,bondsman.
_________________________________________________
serv•ant:Pronunciation: (sûr'vunt), [key] —n.
1. a person employed by another,with or without wages. esp. to perform domestic or manual duties.
------------------------------------------------------
2. A PERSON IN THE SERVICE OF ANOTHER.
---------------------------------------------------------
3. a person employed by the government: a public servant.
_________________________________________________
_________________________________________________

Learn to read.. it's anti-Christian to lie.
Or is it that your arguements don't have to be accurate... Just Christian based and in defence of the bible?
All means to and end huh?

Cheers
RazZ:D

"for the word servant was used to describe slaves on literaly hundreds of occassions..."

Generally when I see the word "servants" I assume it's talking about "servants." The KJV Bible uses the words slave, servant, bondman and bondwoman. Apparently there's a distinction there that you are incapable of picking up.

If you can't understand english then that's your issue. Not the Bible's.

"I simply love how you "LIE" in your definitions of the words"

How did I lie? I said, as well as the Bible says, that Bondmen and bondwomen can have their freedom bought for them by relatives. Never said they weren't slaves.

"You can quote your own facts but I know, slavery was in many instances, forced upon individuals and groups in biblical times as it is indeed still done today in some parts of the world."

Where might those instances be?

I know you can't distinguish between a bondman, a slave and a servant so this might be tricky for you.

A bondman is a slave which can have his freedom bought
A servant is a paid slave
A slave is someone who is ruled by another person

put them together and you get

A bondman is someone who is ruled by another person and can have his freedom bought by a relative

A servant is someone who is ruled by another person and is paid for what he does.

Do you need a dictionary definition for "allow" and "forced?"

You seem to have an issue with making that distinction as well.

Ben

I suggest you research the meanings of the Terms/names you using for the basis of your arguement.

Did you just look past the pasted encyclopedia information I put in my last post?
Im sorry you cant understand a slave is a servant unto their master.

Doesnt matter anyway..pig headed is as pig headed does..
Ill just agree to disagree.
The fact slaves are illegal these days in western culture and the manner of wich people were badly treated in biblical times outlawed by todays standards, I feel my point is allready made.

Cheers
RazZ:D

You'll just have to keep in mind that this is what it's worth. Believe in God, and the measure of human beings becomes subject to priority. Bear in mind that this is how God considers people. Think of it like any other situation lacking equity between the parties. It's the poor bastard's choice to be a slave, apparently, because he didn't choose to die being chased down when he had the chance. It's like how one chooses to accept a gift, with the giver threatening to annihilate you if you reject the gift. It's like this guy who was sexually assaulted in downtown Seattle: he wanted it, since he didn't choose to avoid it by preemptively killing everyone on the sidewalk before he walked out the door of the restaurant and napalming the bushes. I know it all sounds wacky, but they all describe a manner of "choice".

Razz, you know and I know that slavery is a hideous human evil. But some of these religious folk are slaves to their gods, and see no reason why human beings shouldn't be looked at with such contempt as gods view humanity.The explanation of the storm raging within the individual, and between him and his surroundings, is not far to seek. The primitive man, unable to understand his being, much less the unity of all life, felt himself absolutely dependent on blind, hidden forces ever ready to mock and taunt him. Out of that attitude grew the religious concepts of man as a mere speck of dust dependent on superior powers on high, who can only be appeased by complete surrender. All the early sagas rest on that idea, which continues to be the Leitmotiv of the biblical tales dealing with the relation of man to God, to the State, to society. Again and again the same motif, man is nothing, the powers are everything. Thus Jehovah would only endure man on condition of complete surrender. Man can have all the glories of the earth, but he must not become conscious of himself. The State, society, and moral laws all sing the same refrain: Man can have all the glories of the earth, but he must not become conscious of himself. ....

Religion, the dominion of the human mind; Property, the dominion of human needs; and Government, the dominion of human conduct, represent the stronghold of man's enslavement and all the horrors it entails. Religion! How it dominates man's mind, how it humiliates and degrades his soul. God is everything, man is nothing, says religion. But out of that nothing God has created a kingdom so despotic, so tyrannical, so cruel, so terribly exacting that naught but gloom and tears and blood have ruled the world since gods began. .... (Emma Goldman)

The above excerpts are taken from http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/Writings/Anarchism/anarchism.html

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Definitions and clarifications of Slavery.


Leviticus 25:39-55
A native Israelite, if sold for debt, or for a crime, was to serve but six years, and to go out the seventh. If he sold himself, through poverty, both his work and his usage must be such as were fitting for a son of Abraham. Masters are required to give to their servants that which is just and equal, |Col 4:1|. At the year of jubilee the servant should go out free, he and his children, and should return to his own family. This typified redemption from the service of sin and Satan, by the grace of God in Christ, whose truth makes us free, |Joh 8:32|. We cannot ransom our fellow-sinners, but we may point out Christ to them; while by his grace our lives may adorn his gospel, express our love, show our gratitude, and glorify his holy name.


Leviticus 25:44
44'As for your male and female slaves whom you may have--you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.45'Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession.46'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.47 'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family,48then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him,49or his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him;****** or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. ****

It is not captive slavery...this last line assumes "servants" are in fact PAID. They can also chose to sell themselves...OR enlist in to someones service if they are unable to support themselves. It is a far cry different from what took place in America with Africans for example or In Egypt with the nation of Isreal.


Slave
Jer_2:14 (A.V.), but not there found in the original. In Rev_18:13 the word "slaves" is the rendering of a Greek word meaning "bodies." The Hebrew and Greek words for slave are usually rendered simply "servant," "bondman," or "bondservant." Slavery as it existed under the Mosaic law has no modern parallel. That law did not originate but only regulated the already existing custom of slavery (Ex_21:20,21,26,27; Lev_25:44-46; Josh_9:6-27). The gospel in its spirit and genius is hostile to slavery in every form, which under its influence is gradually disappearing from among men.


In 2Samuel 9 you will note that even "slaves" had "slaves". It was servetude not slavery as we know it.


Often if something you read in the Bible seems questionable...a little further research in to WHAT was translated and /or history will clear it up.

"Im sorry you cant understand a slave is a servant unto their master."

I'm sorry you can't understand a guppie is a fish but a fish isn't always a guppie.

As Taken has just expressed and I have expressed many times

A sevant is a slave to the master. Not the other way around.

You just can't seem to understand this simple concept. The Bible calls them servants for a reason. It also calls them Bondmen and Bondwomen for a reason.

They aren't slaves like you apparently can only think of slaves. There are many many types of slavery.

Ben

"But some of these religious folk are slaves to their gods"

Now that you know what it means to be a slave according to the Bible you should understand that isn't a bad thing.

Ben

TakenIt is not captive slavery...this last line assumes "servants" are in fact PAID. They can also chose to sell themselves...OR enlist in to someones service if they are unable to support themselves. It is a far cry different from what took place in America with Africans for example or In Egypt with the nation of Isreal. I disagree that the last line assumes that the slaves/servants are paid. That they may "redeem" themselves does not speak to a living wage, but that they may under some circumstances somehow free themselves. I just don't see the assumption of a wage, and I definitely don't see how such an assumption affects the fact that what we are speaking of here is one person owning another.

The only slavery that's excusable is marriage. It fits even KalvinB's criterion: both the slaves seem to want it.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

I would never even look at this forum except that it NEVER fails to give me a great big belly laugh!! And they won't even understand what I find so funny.

Back to the show...

REDEEM as it was translated from the original text litteraly means to "buy". Just as "slaves" litterally meaning "servants" of the Lord are "blood bought" by Jesus from service to the physical law (sin) and then willingly submit themselves to be "servants" or "slaves" to righteouseness. The word used implied no form of escape or conquer, just simply "bought".
Ownership of the person in a better form of translation is actually "bond"..thus some translations use "bondsman" as opposed to "slave". Bond in the text meant "contract". Just like an actor under contract must submit to their bond to fullfill a specific duty for a specific amount of time. If my country was conquered and I found myself with no resources or provisions, I could then make a contract with someone with recources or wealth to be a servant for a set amount of time or at a set price...and when I had saved enough pay I could "buy" out the contract.
I would like to point out again that the law did not precipitate or even condone bondsmanship because of the mistreatment of many servants by tyrants. But the practice was already widely practiced and accepted and some found it necesary for survival..there was no wel-fare or charitable organizations on large scale opperation back then. The laws set out were to legaly regulate the treatment of servants in order to make it illeagal to treat another human in an inhumane manner.

*Originally posted by tiassa
Tony1What, now you're onto opera metaphors? Give it up, Tony1.*

Why?
It hooked you like a sucker.
I said that so I could remind you of the many times you wanted to smash yourself in the head with a brick.
You can do that tenor twelve times in a row if you wish.

*Originally posted by razz
Didnt think you were allowed to pass judgement on others in your religion, I thought that was Your Gods job.*

You just aren't paying attention, at all.
Your judgment is YOUR job.

For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.
(Matthew 12:37, KJV).

*Just read the damn Quotes and admit*

Sure, I admit that in those days, slavery was OK, according to the Bible.
Those days aren't these days.

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
(Matthew 11:13, KJV).

"Those" days ended when John showed up, so now we are in "these" days.

*if you are defending the bible, Then are you saying you agree with its policy of Slavery?

Direct Question deserves a straight up Answer.*

No problem.
In those days, slavery was OK.

*Not all slaves were voluntary, nor were all treated with respect or dignity.*

That happens.

*Originally posted by tiassa
I just don't see the assumption of a wage*

There would have to be the assumption of at least room and board, otherwise the slave auctions would have to have been very, very busy.

I said that so I could remind you of the many times you wanted to smash yourself in the head with a brick.
You can do that tenor twelve times in a row if you wish. Tsk-tsk-tsk. Look at that: a Christian advocating self-mutilation, and thinking it's a favor, at that!

And all in lieu of havng a point.

Thought so.

--Tiassa :cool:

What self-mutilation?
I'm sure you could smash yourself in the head with a brick tenor twelve times with no discernible damage.

As for point, the "tenor" thing was just there to hook you, since you just can't resist some things.

As for point, the "tenor" thing was just there to hook you, since you just can't resist some things.You ought to try posting something that relates to the topic, then. If you want a place to be irreverent and disrespectful, try starting your own topic.

:rolleyes:
Tiassa :cool:

*Originally posted by tiassa
You ought to try posting something that relates to the topic, then.*

I was simply providing an example of the more metaphysical aspects of slavery.
You seem to be curiously unaware of how much of a slave you are to every little thing, so I provided you with an example.

But only if I hit myself in the head with a brick tenor twelve times. :bugeye:

--Tiassa :cool:

As I recall, the concept of bashing yourself in the head with a brick was something you brought up yourself a few months ago.

I thought that was something you were actually advocating for yourself.
Thus, whether it is tenor twelve times, is presumably up to you.