In one of those strange twists resulting from the use of Internet search engines, I went from pages pertaining to Golden Retrievers to an article printed a few years back in the Washington Post. This article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A50095-2000Dec25) concerns the efforts of supporters of slavery reparations. What I found particularly interesting was this quote from the end of the piece:I've been through hell making the white man rich. Now I want my money, interest and everything.Are black people in America entitled to reparations? There is not a single ex-slave alive today, nor any children of ex-slaves, and any grandchildren are in rest homes. So where is the entitlement? Should the Federal government just hand over cash because your ancestors were mistreated? Shouldn't African governments also pay out since their own people sold slaves to the white man? Most Americans today are not the descendants of anyone who lived in the United States in the period in which slavery existed, much less the descendants of slave-owners. Most are here as a result massive immigration since Civil War. Should people who arrived from Germany or Sweden in the 1880s, Italy or Poland in the years before World War I, or from Mexico or Korea in the 1980s pay for the sins of Mississippi planters in the 1850s?

[Heavy-handed Sarcasm]
If we hand over reparations to descendants of slaves, let's fix all the injustices wrought by America. First, let's hand back the Southwest to Mexico since the U.S. stole it in a blatant land grab. Next, we should pay reparations to the descendants of Chinese and Irish laborers who were treated badly by railroad companies in the 1860s. Finally, all the white people in America should leave for Europe and hand the keys to the U.S. to representatives of Native American tribes. But before they leave, you Yankees owe the descendants of ex-slave owners compensation for lost property.
[/Heavy-handed Sarcasm]

Slavery was a horrific crime against humanity, but the victims of slavery are all dead. You want to fix the legacy of slavery? Give kids in the inner city a fighting chance for a decent education. Provide tax breaks for chain stores that open new shops in poor areas. Provide public transportation links from poor areas to the suburbs so poor people can have access to decent jobs.

By the way, you Brits surely owe me at least a five-pound note or a pint of bitters or something for all that trouble way back when my family lived as serfs.

Peace.

Reparations ... No!

Apology ... Yes! To those veterans who risked or gave their lives for a
country that was still segregated and treated them like dirt upon their
return to civilian life. Come to think of it, even while they were serving
their country.

Over the years I have constantly been amazed by the willingness, for the
most part, of the Black community to proudly support this country, their
country, in times of dire circumstances.

Take care.

Surely you jest?

As mentioned, those African countries that sold their people to enrich the leading classes were the prime perpetraitors of the crime.
That's not to say that the treatment of black people in the US has been right in the past, surely though it's better to try to get on with improving relations and living in the new society that has come about in the last sixty or so years?

Incidentally, did you know that race relations in the US is a required part of GCSE History in the UK?

This subject popped up on another message board I use ages ago. I pulled out a documentary on video and watched it through, making notes, and checked in some og my old books and stuff, and came up with this whopping great set of notes between the XXXs. SO I thought I'd just pop it in here for those who are interested.

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NOTES ON THE AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE

According to the Goray (I think they said Goray) Island (one of the major slaving centres in Africa) Bureau of Tourism, it was African tribes warring on each other, selling each other to the African slave traders on the coast, who sold them to European ships. The island slave trade was run mostly by black women in the eighteenth century.

All along the Slave Coast, as it was called back then, you can see the European coastal settlements. These towns are fortified. And you may notice that thier gun emplacements are ALL pointed out to sea. All the forts were designed to protect against the sea. They were not fighting any locals for slaves. They needed arms only to fight rival European factions. Almost without exception, these fortified towns were set up with the permission of the local African rulers. The Europeans were there on the sufference of the local African rulers. Documents granting trading rights to specific European nations were signed by the local African rulers; and no, they weren't forced into it; the locals had entire nations, while the Europeans had only a few people, and the local rulers were paid very well for the rights (Yes, just like everyone else, they wanted wealth, nice things, power, et cetera).

Most European traders were too damn scared to go inland. They often took enough water and food to make the whole round trip, because they were too scared to make forays into the forest to find stuff while in Africa.

From Professor Elisee Soumonni, Universite Nationale du Benin: "People often don't realise that Africans themselves took part in the trade. That's why, when looking at the question of responsibility, one must admit that there is a responsibility or a complicity within Africa. Because it would have been impossible for Europeans to ship out so many people without the benefit of some internal collaboration at one level or another. There was a deep involvement of Africans in the trade."

When Europeans were actually buying slaves, there was a network of trade trails throughout the area which carried slaves, all tied in lines in ropes, bought and sold from one African trader to the next until some eventually reached the coast. Such convoys could take as long as a year to reach the coast.

From Professor John Fynn, University of Ghana: "People were coming down, as it were, in relays. It was simply trade. Trading with people who wanted our gold, or our slaves. And we want their guns, their gin, their rum, their crops, and so on. So Africans were bringing down the trade, and the Europeans were recieving them. And this was what they called the Castle Trade. Castle Trade - Europeans don't have to venture inland. Trade was brought to them, by the Africans themselves. Whether it is gold, or slaves, it was an African affair."

Slaves had been part of many African cultures long before Europeans arrived. They fought in armies, served in homes, worked as farmers and labourers and such.

One African king executed two of his slaves every single morning in gratitude for a good night's sleep. Another king decorated his palace walls with the heads of his slaves; at one time he had 127 of them executed to complete the line, fill a gap. Some slaves were executed to stop or start rain, bring better crops, et cetera.

Slaves have been exported from Africa, by Africans, for thousands of years, to Cairo, Constantinople, Baghdad, and so on. The trans-Saharan slave trade alone over the few centuries prior to Europeans joining in swallowed over three million slaves, according to estimates based on surving contracts and skeletal remains.

From Akosua Perbi, University of Ghana: "There were other slave markets in Ghana. In the northern part of Ghana where we are right now, there were about four markets, including Salaka. And yet Salaka became the most famous, because of its position. So Salaka was blessed, if you like, geographically, strategically. There were professional merchants who traded all over West Africa, across the trans-Saharan trade. And we find them in Salaka market. Then there were the individual merchants, somebody wanting a wife, or perhaps the wife is barren. The person would come as an individual, and come and purchase one female slave to marry, to bear him children. So it was predominantly an African market, predominantly an African enterprise, predominantly an African setting... So far as they were concerned, it was profitable business, and that was all that mattered, at that time of the trade."

The trans-Atlantic trade was only possible at all because the slave trade was already an ingrained part of Africa. Making war, and selling the losers into slavery was a very common part of life in Africa.

From Venture Smith (the name was obviously given by his eventual owners, his adventures written down by them too), an African slave, who was forced to march four hundred miles to the coast by African slavers after they tortured his father to death in front of him: "I was obliged to carry on my head a large flat stone, weighing twenty-five pounds. These burdens were very grievous to me, being only about six and a half years old."

From another slave taken as a child: "There came a merchant who told me that if I would go with him I should see houses with wings walk upon the water, and should also see the white folks. And should bring me back again soon."

Kwane Nyki the 12th, Paramount Chief of the Assins. His ancestors wiped out heaps of other tribes in their area, selling many into slavery. He said: "What I learnt from my ancestors, or my predecessors, was that this place was that this place was a slave market. Here became the centre, or the last stop, where they had plenty of water, plenty of land to bury their dead. And they fattened them here, and sell them. For us, a day's walk to Cape (couldn't understand his next word, the name of the place)."

Once a year the Assins have a ceremony to remember the slaves they caught themselves or passed on through their lands. They pray for the slaves' souls to be at rest and such. The Assin traded slaves for guns, gunpowder, Jamaican rum, sugar, bananas, et cetera.

Europeans shipped twenty million guns into Africa as payment for slaves. These guns went to the African nations who supplied the slaves.

In the Homi nation, the King saw the European merchants as subordinates under his own rule, a part of his own slave exporting business. You could not trade in these places without the permission of the local African authorities. The African who acted as the go-between in the Homi land would not allow a European to trade until every person even slightly related to the business to come had been thoroughly bribed.

From Martine De Souza (she works now as a tour guide), a black woman who is a descendent of Fransisco De Souza, a rather bad European man who had more than 40 black wives and fathered more than ninety sons there: "With the African-Americans whose ancestors suffered and who still live with discrimination today, the reaction is completely different. They become furious. They weep and wail. They even thump the walls. And they say 'I didn't know Blacks contributed so much to the slave trade.' And I tell them 'You shouldn't always blame the Whites, because Blacks also took part in it. Without them, the trade wouldn't have been so easy.'"

Many of the African suppliers of slaves went to North America to live for short periods with their European business-associates. They went to school there, lived the good life, then went home and improved their own slave business.

Letter from a Nigerian (in Calabar) slave-trader to his associates in England: "Dear Gentlemen. Captain John Burrow arrived at this river on the fourth day of May with a very fine cargo. I hope his ships carry four hundred and sixty slaves. I don't keep him long, and I think he'll get to Liverpool fifteen or twenty day March. I am your dear Eyboyoung Effyoung."

Another letter from an African slave trader in Calabar: "I want two gun for every slave I send. Send me some writing paper, and two sheep. PS: remember me to your wife."

Another letter from an African slave trader in Calabar: "Send plenty of ship's guns. Send me one looking glass six feet long and six feet wide. And send two pewter pistols."

In 1807, Britain abolished the trans-Atlantic slave trade; several other European nations followed suit. Many African rulers lodged official protests. In 1820, a white delegation reached the Ashanti king, who told them: "The white men do not understand my country, or they would not say the slave trade was bad. But if they think it bad now, why did they think it good before?"

After that decision by Britain and others, the internal and trans-Saharan African slave markets continued. They died out only at the start of the twentieth century.

Well, there's some notes on slavery in and from Africa. To blame it solely on Europeans is plain old racism. The Europeans buyers were slaving scum, true, but so were the African suppliers of slaves. These are some of the facts of the issue.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

The master-slave relationship exists now, today, in the form of handouts, freebies, and cries by power-mad community leaders for reparations. This, of course, is not to say that there should not be a system to provide a hand UP… the problem is the system that provides the hand OUT, and this type of legislation will only promote the continued doling out of funds while accomplishing nothing. A growing number of cities are considering measures that would require companies that receive city contracts to first scour their corporate archives and disclose whether they ever profited from slavery.

None of the legislation calls for companies to pay reparations, but if they refuse to search their records, they won't be able to do business with the cities. The measures don't specify what would happen if companies find evidence of profits from slavery, but officials say they wouldn't be penalized when seeking city contracts.

However, details revealed by companies could be used to identify targets for future lawsuits, and to help build legal cases… (Full text here (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/nation/6125475.htm)) You, Mr. Guilty White Liberal, and power driven black community/religious leader (I do so hate to label) if you want to truly help the black community rise up, if you truly want to make equal partners of ALL the members of the melting pot, then please focus on the following; ELEMENTARY EDUCATION - Children are made or broken here, society is too far astray from the path that will allow a young person in less than perfect economic conditions to exist, not to mention succeed. Start here. Buy books, fix/build schools, pay teachers on their success, and privatize if necessary.

CRIME - Decriminalize (if not legalize) marijuana, eradicate crack/cocaine (it CAN be done if we're serious), bulldoze housing projects and replace them with scattered site housing, limit through zoning laws the number of liquor stores allowed within a given area, and give police the resources and authority to enforce the rules.

SECONDARY EDUCATION - The poor don't go to college not only because they cannot afford it, but because it is indeed a hardship in many cases. Study by location what is necessary, and what ever it is, put it there. If you need to put a vocational school with a day care center in the middle of a blighted area, then do so, and let part of the school day be spent refurbishing the area in which the school resides.There are so very many things that can be done, we simply refuse to do them. Reparations will just help to create a dependent, uber-victim culture in American society. You, Mr. Black man are not smart enough, not worldly enough, not connected enough to educate yourself and seize your own opportunity and make your own way in the world, so I, in my infinite wisdom (cleverly dressed guilt) will do it for you, and in doing so, force you to exchange opportunity for oppression, and freedom for a new American slavery.

:m: Peace.

IMO as far as the government is concerned there should be no blacks, whites or purples. As such, the idea of reparations is eronious.

Shame on you, comrades, who seek to deny the "Oppressed Negro" all he deserves!

Indeed, We should give every exploited and outraged black family its due!

We should grant them each an ample sum, approximately $150,000, with only one stipulation: that they immediately emigrate back to Africa and become residents thereof for the rest of their natural lives.

As they are so impassioned in their resentment of past misdeeds, and so eager for reimbursement, perhaps they will rejoice in being returned to their "brothers," the swine who sold them in the beginning.
:D

Well that's just fuking mean!:mad: I abhor the fact that you could make such a blatently rude and racist comment.

I don't think that black people need to get reparations payed by the government, I think that when people stop being so damn racist that will be payment enough.

I'm only guessing, but I belive you may have missed some intentional sarcasm.

:m: Peace.

I see it this way.
African Americans where brought here as slaves, which although now outlawed has left their descendants on the bottom of our society, many with little hope of moving upwards. Something needs to be done about this. Reperations is one proposed solution. It has the advantage of being immediate, as soon as these people have as much money as the rest of society they can spread out, and racist white people will no longer be able to segregate themselves by moving to upscale neighborhoods.

No, its not fair, and most of the people getting the reperations will not be entirely descended from slaves, and none will be directly effected by slavery, but I've yet to hear a better solution. Perhaps it could be viewed as reperations for the institutionalized racism that really has happend to many of these people. African-Americans who were alive before the civil rights movement could be given reperations for their mistreatment during the "seperate but equal" days.

Ultimately of course, I think racism(or some non-class based disrimination) is inherent in capitalism, but I won't get into that here.

Hey, JPS if you want to pay reparations that's your business, but leave my tax dollars out of it. I never owned slaves, and when it comes down to it (Not that this matters) no one in my family even lived in America while slavery was legal, so stay out of my wallet.

i aint gonna pay a dime but i think the rest of ya'll should. the collection plate will be coming around shortly. be generous! thanks

Originally posted by Mystech
Hey, JPS if you want to pay reparations that's your business, but leave my tax dollars out of it. I never owned slaves, and when it comes down to it (Not that this matters) no one in my family even lived in America while slavery was legal, so stay out of my wallet.
I take it you didn't read my post. If you had you'd notice that I said "reperations" seem the best solution to a current problem, rather than a fair payback for slavery, and that it might be better to look at it as reparations for the "seperate but equal" laws rather than slavery.
My family never owned slaves either, but thats totally irrelevant to arguement I put forward.

Originally posted by jps
I take it you didn't read my post. If you had you'd notice that I said "reperations" seem the best solution to a current problem,

Yes, and that's exactly what I'm contesting. Did you read my post? I think that reparations are a complete joke and not a solution to any problem at all, only the cause of a new one if taken seriously.

Originally posted by jps
rather than a fair payback for slavery, and that it might be better to look at it as reparations for the "seperate but equal" laws rather than slavery.

Why segragation laws but not three hundred years of bondage? I don't get what you are trying to say here. You know white people were also separated from blacks and not just blacks from whites under segragation. Maybe we owe them a bunch of money and they owe us a bunch of money.

Originally posted by jps
My family never owned slaves either, but thats totally irrelevant to arguement I put forward.

Why is it irrelevant? You feel that people who had absolutely nothing at all to do with the issue of slavery or the current situation of African-Americans are responsible to pay out the ass for no reason at all?

Part of the problem here appears to be people looking for a free hand out.

Every one has a chance at basic high school education. No one can make a student absorb knowledge or pour that knowledge in. The student must make some effort to obtain that knowledge. Without an education, most folks stand little chance of getting a decent pay.

Now I don't know about you but where I work the racial equation is about equal. I mean 50/50. That is not in porportion to the population figures as precentage wise. Understand that I have no complaint as the folks I work with are good folk. I say the above because they make the same as I do. In my book that is equal.

I fear that the racial problem will never truely go away until all our skin tones are the same. No one who supports quotas or minority advancement is going to say we have reached that goal. If they do then their job is over. You will always hear how this one or that one isn't treated right because of the racial card but I venture that in this day and age it is more of a trump card to play because of lack of true rightness in their stance. In otherwords, much of it is cover up.

I suspect that this will fire up several folks into replying how false these words are but I ask you, Is that truely how it is? Or is that the easy way out for the lack of diligence?

Originally posted by Mystech
Yes, and that's exactly what I'm contesting. Did you read my post?
Yeah, I read your post:

Originally posted by Mystech
Hey, JPS if you want to pay reparations that's your business, but leave my tax dollars out of it. I never owned slaves, and when it comes down to it (Not that this matters) no one in my family even lived in America while slavery was legal, so stay out of my wallet.
You argue that you shouldn't have to pay for reparations because you never owned slaves, an argument which I addressed.

Originally posted by Mystech
I think that reparations are a complete joke and not a solution to any problem at all, only the cause of a new one if taken seriously.
why?

Originally posted by Mystech
Why segragation laws but not three hundred years of bondage? I don't get what you are trying to say here. You know white people were also separated from blacks and not just blacks from whites under segragation. Maybe we owe them a bunch of money and they owe us a bunch of money. Because people who were harmed by segregation laws are still alive whereas former slaves are not. That seems to be one of the main criticisms of reparations.
The thing about "seperate but equal" laws is that the seperate facilities tended not to be equal.

Originally posted by Mystech
Why is it irrelevant? You feel that people who had absolutely nothing at all to do with the issue of slavery or the current situation of African-Americans are responsible to pay out the ass for no reason at all? The US government is responsible for slavery and the current situation of African-Americans. Its the US government that I'm suggesting pay out the reparations. Taxpayers "pay out the ass" for all kinds of things they're not responsible for. If there was an earthquake would you whine about aid being sent to the victims from your tax dollars because it wasn't your fault?

Originally posted by wet1
Part of the problem here appears to be people looking for a free hand out.

Every one has a chance at basic high school education. No one can make a student absorb knowledge or pour that knowledge in. The student must make some effort to obtain that knowledge. Without an education, most folks stand little change of getting a decent pay.
But not all high schools are equal. Inner city schools in largely minority areas tend not be as good as those in the largely white suburbs.
In addition to this teenagers in poor families often end up having to work to help support the family and either don't spend as much time at or drop out of school altogether.

Originally posted by wet1
Now I don't know about you but where I work the racial equation is about equal. I mean 50/50. That is not in porportion to the population figures as precentage wise. Understand that I have no complaint as the folks I work with are good folk. I say the above because they make the same as I do. In my book that is equal.
Thats irrelevant as its not representative of the situation in general

Originally posted by wet1
I fear that the racial problem will never truely go away until all our skin tones are the same. No one who supports quotas or minority advancement is going to say we have reached that goal. If they do then their job is over. You will always hear how this one or that one isn't treated right because of the racial card but I verture that in this day and age it is more of a trump card to play because of lack of true rightness in their stance. In otherwords, much of it is cover up.
If minorities were genuinely integrated so that a minority member had the same likelyhood of being in any particular economic group as a white person, then I can't see how anyone could argue about this.

But not all high schools are equal. Inner city schools in largely minority areas tend not be as good as those in the largely white suburbs.

It is not the location but the abilibity of the student to absorb and reach for the knowledge. This must be instilled with in the young at an early age. Once out of school, do you think learning is over? Bubba, I got news for you. To retain my job it is necessary to return over and over to school to maintain those certifications. No one gives this to me or any other fellow employee. They, the same as I, must earn it.

In addition to this teenagers in poor families often end up having to work to help support the family and either don't spend as much time at or drop out of school altogether.

Wished I had a silver spoon in my mouth when I was born. Alas, I worked after school, in addition to maintaining my grades. My teachers did not "give me" diddly. Further, one of the schools I went to had a graduation class of two. With grades 1-6 in one room and 7-12 in the other. I do not feel that my education was in any way hindered by it.

Thats irrelevant as its not representative of the situation in general

I am afraid it is very relevant as it is my situtation and what I see around me. How else does one judge what is reality but by what goes on around one?

If minorities were genuinely integrated so that a minority member had the same likelyhood of being in any particular economic group as a white person, then I can't see how anyone could argue about this.

Thank you. This was the exact point I was making beside the one that there would be those that disagreed with it. That those conditions already exist within my workplace. They exist because federal law says they must.

Originally posted by wet1
It is not the location but the abilibity of the student to absorb and reach for the knowledge. This must be instilled with in the young at an early age. Once out of school, do you think learning is over? Bubba, I got news for you. To retain my job it is necessary to return over and over to school to maintain those certifications. No one gives this to me or any other fellow employee. They, the same as I, must earn it. You really don't think that the quality of schools has any impact on the success of the students?



Originally posted by wet1
Wished I had a silver spoon in my mouth when I was born. Alas, I worked after school, in addition to maintaining my grades. My teachers did not "give me" diddly. Further, one of the schools I went to had a graduation class of two. With grades 1-6 in one room and 7-12 in the other. I do not feel that my education was in any way hindered by it. What if in order to have enough food for your family you had to work during school?



Originally posted by wet1
I am afraid it is very relevant as it is my situtation and what I see around me. How else does one judge what is reality but by what goes on around one?

Thank you. This was the exact point I was making beside the one that there would be those that disagreed with it. That those conditions already exist within my workplace. They exist because federal law says they must. You really believe that minorities have the same chance of success in the US as white people do because its that way at your job?

You really don't think that the quality of schools has any impact on the success of the students?

The quality of an education has much less to do with what the school has and more to do with what the student can be inspired to learn on his own. As example, I never had a computer class. They were not there and available during the time I was in school. I started to get serious about computers when it became evident that that skill would be needed. The method that I learned by was one of read a manual by peicemeal and then try those until they were mine. This literally had nothing to do with any sort of school other than the desire to learn.

What school gave me or can give anyone else is only the ability to read and comprehend, after that it is up to the individual. School doesn't have anything to do with it at that stage. My point is that obtaining knowledge through school leaves a lot to be desired and is not truely necessary once one has gained command of basic language skills need to research and understand that. One of the most misunderstood concepts is that school is not the end all, it is only the beginning. No one is going to give you anything. If you want it you must supply the "want to". That doesn't come by watching tv every night.

What if in order to have enough food for your family you had to work during school?

While I will admit that food, shelter, and clothing come first how many truely are in that situtation in the US at present? I did work to buy my own clothes and for paying for my education. Because I was not rich getting that education required that I bus 50 miles to college each way. Alas I did not have the money to stay in the dorm. Once again, nothing was just handed to me. It is the same for others. It is a matter of what to. How bad you want something has a lot to do with if you will get it. Further, my classes required that I have 2 night courses each semester. I could not ride the bus those nights. I was truely lucky that there was folks in that town that knew my folks and would allow me to stay those 2 nights each week within their home. To this day, I am truely grateful to them.

You really believe that minorities have the same chance of success in the US as white people do because its that way at your job?

I believe that ability will speak for itsself. I believe that want to will speak for itself. I also believe that one must prepare oneself and that no one else can do that for one. It is not quotas that will solve anything. It is individual want-to and desire to obtain those abilities that will.

Originally posted by wet1
The quality of an education has much less to do with what the school has and more to do with what the student can be inspired to learn on his own. As example, I never had a computer class. They were not there and available during the time I was in school. I started to get serious about computers when it became evident that that skill would be needed. The method that I learned by was one of read a manual by peicemeal and then try those until they were mine. This literally had nothing to do with any sort of school other than the desire to learn. People are more likely to be interested in learning about something if they're in an environment in which that thing figures. For computers, if someone doesn't know anyone with a computer, and their school doesn't have any functional computers, its unlikely they'll be interested in them enough to learn more. If neither ones school or environment have anything that will inspire further learning, then one isn't likely to pursue it.

Originally posted by wet1
What school gave me or can give anyone else is only the ability to read and comprehend, after that it is up to the individual. School doesn't have anything to do with it at that stage. My point is that obtaining knowledge through school leaves a lot to be desired and is not truely necessary once one has gained command of basic language skills need to research and understand that. One of the most misunderstood concepts is that school is not the end all, it is only the beginning. No one is going to give you anything. If you want it you must supply the "want to". That doesn't come by watching tv every night.
Not all schools provide even a basic ability to read and comprehend very well.
If reading is hard for someone and viewed as work, they're not likely to look for stuff to read outside of school.


Originally posted by wet1
While I will admit that food, shelter, and clothing come first how many truely are in that situtation in the US at present? I did work to buy my own clothes and for paying for my education. Because I was not rich getting that education required that I bus 50 miles to college each way. Alas I did not have the money to stay in the dorm. Once again, nothing was just handed to me. It is the same for others. It is a matter of what to. How bad you want something has a lot to do with if you will get it. Further, my classes required that I have 2 night courses each semester. I could not ride the bus those nights. I was truely lucky that there was folks in that town that knew my folks and would allow me to stay those 2 nights each week within their home. To this day, I am truely grateful to them.I don't know how many would genuinely starve if they didn't work, but I'm sure quite a few feel obligated to work to better their situation.
Do you feel that everyone should have to bus 50 miles to school to show that they really want an education?


Originally posted by wet1
I believe that ability will speak for itsself. I believe that want to will speak for itself. I also believe that one must prepare oneself and that no one else can do that for one. It is not quotas that will solve anything. It is individual want-to and desire to obtain those abilities that will. I'm not suggesting quotas. So your saying that we should leave it alone and do nothing and the problem will go away? This doesn't seem to be happening.

My point to all this in the beginning and still is that you don't get something for nothing. Basically, that is what quotas do.

As far as computers, I didn't have one. My work started requiring the skill so I had to learn it. No one I knew had computer knowledge at the time so I had no one to ask.

Nothing replaces drive. The want-to. The tenacity to go for what you want. Many feel that they shouldn't have to try, that it should be given. The world doesn't work that way and never did. Young folks today come to work with the idea they want to start at the top. That doesn't happen either. You start at the bottom and work your way up.

You have just outlined why an education is important. Why reading and writing skills are also important when you made the statement.

If neither ones school or environment have anything that will inspire further learning, then one isn't likely to pursue it.

If one is not likely to pursue it then they have no grounds to complain that they didn't get an even break. You see, once again it is a matter of applying oneself. For those that want it, it is there. It is not a matter of oppurtunity it is a matter of application of ones self.

Not all schools provide even a basic ability to read and comprehend very well.
If reading is hard for someone and viewed as work, they're not likely to look for stuff to read outside of school.

As I stated earlier, they must want it to get it. No one just pours the knowledge in. It is only there if one reaches for it. For those who don't, there is no way to for them to expect better.

Do you feel that everyone should have to bus 50 miles to school to show that they really want an education?

I used that as a true example from my own life that shows limitations can be overcome.

So your saying that we should leave it alone and do nothing and the problem will go away? This doesn't seem to be happening

I am saying as long as we give stuff away without the earning price to get it that those that recieve will always want more. Things given freely are rarely appreciated for what it is. The problem will never go away as long as we play give away. The sooner that people learn you must earn your way the sooner there will be no need of give aways.

i'd give em.... 3 generations worth of free college ed. any takers? going going..
i'd give em.... 40 acres and a suv. any takers? going going...

The day I have to pay reparations is the day I leave the U.S.A.

...was Constitutionally and statutorily sanctioned by the government from 1789-1865

so ahh take it easy, imagine it as some new and improved star wars boondoggle. the govt will pay for everything like it always does thru your taxes. amazing why folks take this so personally. perhaps cos.. the "founding fathers" never intended to have non-whites integrated at the same level as whites, why do i continuously hear all this whining about preconceived entitlements? if you're not white, too bad, and you're lucky enough to live here because all your people wanna be here. this is the best place in the world for any minority and you know it...

heh! oh i almost forgot! did i mention i want reparations for 2 generations of reverse discrimination

Originally posted by wet1
My point to all this in the beginning and still is that you don't get something for nothing. Basically, that is what quotas do.
I'm not suggesting quotas.

Originally posted by wet1
As far as computers, I didn't have one. My work started requiring the skill so I had to learn it. No one I knew had computer knowledge at the time so I had no one to ask. you had a job that required computers, so you had exposure to them.

Originally posted by wet1
Nothing replaces drive. The want-to. The tenacity to go for what you want. Many feel that they shouldn't have to try, that it should be given. The world doesn't work that way and never did. Young folks today come to work with the idea they want to start at the top. That doesn't happen either. You start at the bottom and work your way up.

Originally posted by wet1
You have just outlined why an education is important. Why reading and writing skills are also important when you made the statement.
and how inadequate schools can do serious lasting damage to kids.

Originally posted by wet1
If one is not likely to pursue it then they have no grounds to complain that they didn't get an even break. You see, once again it is a matter of applying oneself. For those that want it, it is there. It is not a matter of oppurtunity it is a matter of application of ones self.Without either education about or exposure to things, there is no way for people to know about things to apply themselves in.



Originally posted by wet1
As I stated earlier, they must want it to get it. No one just pours the knowledge in. It is only there if one reaches for it. For those who don't, there is no way to for them to expect better. Why should some have to reach so much farther then others?


Originally posted by wet1
I am saying as long as we give stuff away without the earning price to get it that those that recieve will always want more. Things given freely are rarely appreciated for what it is. The problem will never go away as long as we play give away. The sooner that people learn you must earn your way the sooner there will be no need of give aways. the thing is some people are born with things given to them, and others are born having litle chance to get those things.
I'm just suggesting leveling the playhing field.

I'm just suggesting leveling the playhing field

impossible since most white males think that they are now victims of discrimination.

Originally posted by spookz
I'm just suggesting leveling the playhing field

impossible since most white males think that they are now victims of discrimination. most? I don't think so. but you're right, its not gonna happen anytime soon.

One of the most controversial issues in the affirmative action debate is its perceived negative impact on large numbers of whites, especially white males. Public opinion polls show that between half and three-fourths of whites believe that, as a group, they are routinely discriminated against. A 1999 poll, commissioned by the Seattle Times, found that 75% of whites agreed with the statement saying that 'Unqualified minorities get hired over qualified whites' most of the time or some of the time. Two-thirds said the same about promotion and 63% said the same about college admission (Seattle Times, 1999; Steeh & Krysan, 1996).

The Social Construction of Reverse Discrimination: The Impact of Affirmative Action on Whites (http://www.adversity.net/Pro_AA/pincus_main_frame.htm)

In short, reverse discrimination is more than just a description of whites being harmed by affirmative action. It is a socially constructed, ideological package that contains an entire set of conservative attitudes about the state of race and gender relations today. It is a codeword for those angry whites who feel threatened by increased competition from people of color and women. Although reverse discrimination is seen as something real, it is actually a socially constructed interpretation of reality that exaggerates and misinterprets the problems that whites genuinely have.

ugh. i stand corrected.

Recently discovered public records confirm the use of African-American slave labor in the construction of the two most important structures in the country -- the U.S. Capitol and the White House. Slave labor was also used in the making of two significant statues in Washington, D.C., one of which, the Statue of Freedom, was hoisted atop the dome of the Capitol in 1863.

Ed Hotaling, a Washington-based television producer, is the one who made the discovery. While he was doing research for a program on the buildings, Hotaling unearthed U.S. Treasury promissory notes to slave owners. These documents confirmed that slaves were used in the construction of the Capitol and the White House. The slave owners were promised $5 a month for each of their slaves used in the construction.

In fact, Treasury Department pay slips show that more than two-thirds of the laborers who worked on the buildings (450 out of 650) were of African descent -- 400 slaves and 50 freemen. Twelve slaves were used to cast the Statue of Freedom. more we will understand why the legacy of slavery still haunts us today.

Many folks have a hard time with the notion of reparations for slavery. But what's there to argue with? This latest revelation makes concrete the contributions of slave laborers. Slaves were denied their freedom by the U.S. government. It owes them a debt for this. Since the families of Japanese Americans who were interned in detention camps during World War II received compensation, the descendants of blacks who were enslaved deserve reparations as well.

But reparations are a long way off. In the meantime, the government should take up the suggestion by Watts and Lewis and build a memorial to the slaves who toiled building the Capitol and the White House. It's the least the government can do.

http://www.progressive.org/mpbvmo00.htm


The Mobile & Girard Railroad offered slave owners $180 apiece for use of their slaves in 1856. It is one of 39 slave-built lines that are today part of Norfolk Southern, says San Diego State University expert Ted Kornweibel.

They owned, rented or insured slaves. Loaned money to plantation owners. Helped hunt down the runaways. Some of America's most respected companies have slavery in their pasts. Now, 137 years after the final shots of the Civil War, will there be a reckoning? A powerhouse team of African-American legal and academic stars is getting ready to sue companies it says profited from slavery before 1865. Initially, the group's aim is to use lawsuits and the threat of litigation to squeeze apologies and financial settlements from dozens of corporations. Ultimately, it hopes to gain momentum for a national apology and a massive reparations payout by Congress to African-Americans.

# Insurers Aetna, New York Life and AIG and financial giants J.P. Morgan Chase Manhattan Bank and FleetBoston Financial Group.
# Investment banks Brown Bros. Harriman and Lehman Bros.
# Railroads Norfolk Southern, CSX, Union Pacific and Canadian National.
# Textile maker WestPoint Stevens.
# Newspaper publishers Knight Ridder, Tribune, Media General, Advance Publications, E.W. Scripps and Gannett, parent and publisher of USA TODAY

http://www.usatoday.com/money/general/2002/02/21/slave-reparations.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/money/general/2002/02/21/slave-insurance-policies.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/money/general/2002/02/21/slave-newspapers.htm


the precedents

hmm lets see.. the interned japanese were given stuff, the holocaust guys got some $8 billion from corporations (without a legal judgement against them) so why not the blacks. dig deep into those pockets whitey, time to pay up!

when france abolished slavery in haiti it offered reparations not to the slaves but the slave owners (loss of income?). the us, a bit nicer, offered 40 acres and a mule;)

Where did the idea of reparations begin and when? It sounds like an idea that came from a civil-rights era, radical black man.

It would be interesting to poll all of african americans (not all black americans as not all their ancestors were given to slavery). And see the most widely held reasons for monetary reparations. Could it be to "heal 400 years of oppression"? Or is it "just and right" that today's african americans benefit from their ancestor's pain and suffering and injustice.

Money doesn't make people forgive, it only makes them happy.

Maybe when civil-rights era blacks and their children and then their children are dead, this issue will be absurd as the way we think about slavery and african americans' ancestors.