Settlement with NCAA lets UND try to win approval by 2010 from tribes to use the Indian nickname and logo. (http://www.startribune.com/503/story/1510113.html)

By Pam Louwagie, Star Tribune
Last update: October 26, 2007 – 9:35 PM

The long and contentious debate over the University of North Dakota's Fighting Sioux nickname and logo was temporarily put on ice Friday with a lawsuit settlement that gives the school three years to win approval from the state's two Sioux tribes or pick a new nickname...

I don't know where I stand on this whole issue. On one hand, I guess if they named sports teams things like "The Fighting Jews" or "The Raging Mongolians" we would consider it to be crossing the line, but on the other, it's a long standing part of the country's tradition to name sports teams after heoric Indian tribes. Also, there are teams (i.e. the "Fighting Irish") that utilize other culturs as mascots with no ill effects (in fact, I don't know a single Irish-American who's not secretly a fan Notre Dame).

~String

I think they're possibly overestimating the degree of offence and that the real issue is one of copyright. Maybe they're aiming for a large financial settlement?

On the other hand I can see how it could be insulting and belittling to have the name of the mighty Sioux nation plastered all over a bunch of rich white boys' football shirts.

Either way, whether the issue is one of offence or copyright, the University has a case to answer. Tradition (stretching all the way back to 1930, y'all - gasp) doesn't imply right.

I hope the Sioux win and that other tribes then take the initiative and sioux their local university for engaging in this kind of bare-faced cultural stripping (not the intention, maybe, but certainly the effect).

But maybe I'm getting a bit misty-eyed here:
But Standing Rock Tribal Chairman Ron His Horse Is Thunder
When your leader's got a name like that - Ron!?? - you do have to question how much dignity they've got left.

[url=http://www.startribune.com/503/story/]
Also, there are teams (i.e. the "Fighting Irish") that utilize other culturs as mascots with no ill effects (in fact, I don't know a single Irish-American who's not secretly a fan Notre Dame).

~String

How many "Irish" football, basketball or baseball team athletes are of Irish

decent on the Notre Dame teams?

What's wrong with "The Fighting Jews"?

What's wrong with "The Fighting Jews"?

Nothing... I actually like the sound of it. Can you imagine a Hasidic in the same pose as the fightin' Irish mascot?

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/5246/fightinirishleprechaun9pi8.jpg

~String

The UND logo is not actually offensive to very many reds I've met - only the ignorant and highhanded use of it, without (originally) consideration or respect for a bunch of people who actually live in North Dakota and had no say.

I'll bet the UND can work something out with the tribe on that one.

The Cleveland Indians mascot, on the other hand, is a slap in the face. And the Washington Redskins ? C'mon.

The UND logo is not actually offensive to very many reds I've met - only the ignorant and highhanded use of it, without (originally) consideration or respect for a bunch of people who actually live in North Dakota and had no say.

I'll bet the UND can work something out with the tribe on that one.

The Cleveland Indians mascot, on the other hand, is a slap in the face. And the Washington Redskins ? C'mon.

Fortunately for The Cleveland Indians, they are a private team that doesn't pay homage to any specific tribe name. Colleges and universities answer to moke PC groups and the Indians don't utilize any specifically protected tribe name.

As a long standing Indains fan, the only thing I kind of wonder about, with respect to the team's choice of images, is the picture of the "Indian": complete with gargantuan nose and bright red face. The only thing that I can think of that is more ridiculously stereotypical would be the mammy depiction of Aunt Jemima before the 1970's.

http://riveravereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/indians.jpg http://thekitchenmart.com/library/a_J_mammy_cJ_66_7209.jpg

~String

Settlement with NCAA lets UND try to win approval by 2010 from tribes to use the Indian nickname and logo. (http://www.startribune.com/503/story/1510113.html)



I don't know where I stand on this whole issue. On one hand, I guess if they named sports teams things like "The Fighting Jews" or "The Raging Mongolians" we would consider it to be crossing the line, but on the other, it's a long standing part of the country's tradition to name sports teams after heoric Indian tribes. Also, there are teams (i.e. the "Fighting Irish") that utilize other culturs as mascots with no ill effects (in fact, I don't know a single Irish-American who's not secretly a fan Notre Dame).

~String


You mean heroic indians like the Southeastern Oklahoma "Savages"? (And, of course, the "Lady Savages"--their female counterpart). Thankfully those were axed, as I understand it.

I can see why it gives people pause because they are not naming teams after heroes, they are naming them after fierce or tough animals which (many whites took to include at the time the naming convention started) the "savage" injuns.

You do get the occasional "Patriots" or "Minute Men", but there are plenty of "Panthers" for each "Patriots."

In the end, I think it's a little dodgy to rely on the "this was a triobute to you and your proud people!" argument, because it doesn't really sound plausible to me in the vast majority of cases.

That said, it's hardly the biggest problem...not even the biggest race-related problem facing America.

I admit that what I like about the Cleveland Indians' mascot is that the head, if you simply draw the outline, resembles someone flipping you off.

Seriously. With your left hand, flip yourself off. Your thumb is the right ear, your pinky knuckle is at the left cheekbone.

As to the greater question, I keep thinking that the tribes should buy a sports team and rename it. For instance, when we had the Tacoma Rockets minor-league hockey organization, I would have loved to see the Muckleshoot or Puyallups invest in the team and rename it Tahoma Pale Riders. And between periods, you could depict a drunken cowboy raping and killing indigenous women and stealing the children. And the cowboy? His name would be Whitey. So the fans could then chant, "Go, Whitey, go!" during the show.

Of course, it would be an exercise in futility. Few, if any, would get the point.

But more than the whole "Fighting Irish" thing, I despise Notre Dame for Touchdown Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre_Dame_Stadium). I'm sorry, but I just have a hard time with religious people who think Jesus gives a rat's behind about a football game in Indiana.

Of course, there are some pretty stupid names out there. The NHL features the "Thrashers". The XFL, of course, was even worse, and not for politically correct reasons. I mean, there is some humor in the New Jersey "Hitmen", which makes a great mafia/football pun. But what of the Los Angeles "Xtreme", or the Orlando "Rage"? They're just stupid names.

Of course, trying to be obscure doesn't help, either. Stanford University, these days, is simply "Cardinal". Not "The Stanford Cardinals", but "The Stanford Cardinal". And no, they're not referring to the Catholic clergy. They're referring to a color. And their mascot is a dancing tree.

All the Native Americans I've talked to depise sports teams using Native Americans as logo's. I once told a Native American classmate that my favorite NFL team was the Redskins. And according to her, she said that some indians were called Redskins because their faces would be covered with blood after they were scalped. If a majority of Native Americans object to these type of logo's, then I say we grant them their wish. That's the least we can do as Americans.