Silence - SciForums.com

Silence

06-21-00, 01:17 AM

Tony H2o

Delight yourself in Him again.

Psalm 1:

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, Nor standeth in the way of sinners, Nor sitteth in the seat of scoffers:
2 But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the streams of water, That bringeth forth its fruit in its season, Whose leaf also doth not wither; And whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The wicked are not so, But are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the wicked shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For Jehovah knoweth the way of the righteous; But the way of the wicked shall perish.
1 Why do the nations rage, And the peoples meditate a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against Jehovah, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bonds asunder, And cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens will laugh: The Lord will have them in derision.
5 Then will he speak unto them in his wrath, And vex them in his sore displeasure:
6 Yet I have set my king Upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son; This day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Now therefore be wise, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, For his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.

There is yet time for those in this place to find their refuge and delight in Him also.

Tony H2o

06-21-00, 01:37 AM

OK who is this?

You know way to much about me for this to be a fluke. You just quoted one of my favorite scriptures!!!

Flash, is that you? Playing games? Maybe not you don't know my favorite scriptures.

Say how do I do that question mark face thingy??? :confused:

Silence, I'm stumped ???

Say have you read a lot of the history here? Perhaps I've let stuff out that you've picked up on?

Allcare

Tony

[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited June 21, 2000).]

Flash

06-21-00, 05:08 AM

Tony,
NOOOOOOO...it is not me. I only come here as Flash and Flash ONLY. Although I do love to play jokes...I wouldn't do it this way. It's not my style, friend.

Take care!!!

Flash

Silence

06-21-00, 06:16 AM

Tony

"Say have you read a lot of the history here? Perhaps I've let stuff out that you've picked up on?"

You have said many things, some show great insight, some boarder on heracy, you have spoken from your own heart and undrstanding. Now speak from Gods word like you have been commanded!!

Remember your dreams? Remember your call? Remember the charcoal? Remember the breath of life?

Do not be distracted by the confussion of others. A noble heart does not lead to truth, your motivation is from kindness, be kind but with the truth. For what greater kindness could you show? It is the truth that will set them free.

Do not let Gods word take second place to your desire to resolve their doubt.

Do not take your eyes off Him or you may stumble and fall.

Silence

[This message has been edited by Silence (edited June 21, 2000).]

Tony H2o

06-21-00, 06:39 AM

OK,

Now I'm feeling like you've just crawled into my head and heart.

Two ways I can take this:

1. You've done some research, read up on my posts, seen the type of person I am and are leading me on a merry dance.

2. You've done some research, read up on my posts and spoken the truth.

I'd be inclined towards number two. You nailed it pretty well smack on, sometimes my desire to see people here change, or better put come to understand, well my desire becomes somewhat obsessive.

I perhaps try to hard to understand them rather then getting them to understand God and who He shows Himself to be by His word of truth.

Perhaps I cry out for them to often? Perhaps not enough? I do wonder what the heck I'm doing here sometimes?? Apart from wasting space on Dave W's hard drive :D

And there's another point, I'm a little irreverant sometimes. Sometimes letting my guard down and getting my heart trodden on by my own stupidity. Sometimes completely embaresed by the things I say.

I just recently asked the question "Lord why don't they see?" "Is it me?" "Am I in the way?"

Then there's the pride thingy, the one that says "WOW, I'm smart look what I figured out, when all along it was the Holy Spirit showing me sssslllllooooowwwwlllly so that I could understand.

The people out there really do need the truth, ISDAman does a good job with it perhaps I should learn a lesson from his example.

Ranting, raving, ranting again. A fool can get lost in the folly of his own words.

I'll give what you have said deeper thought.

Thank you

Allcare

Tony H2o

Tony H2o

06-21-00, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by Silence:
Remember your dreams? Remember your call? Remember the charcoal? Remember the breath of life?

Double punch, ouch!

How about forsake not your first love and be either Hot or Cold lest I spew you forth from my mouth.

That would be a TKO

Tony

Lori

06-21-00, 01:57 PM

Silence,

Who are you calling a fool dear? That's not very nice ya know? And wisdom is NEVER wasted, and speaking the word of God is never in vain. Your dribbling bs is though. See Pash, it's all about intent. Get it?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Flash

06-21-00, 02:04 PM

Lori,
My thoughts EXACTLY!!!! :D

Stretch

06-21-00, 06:47 PM

Hi Thundering Silence,

"Why, you who hate me, do you love me,
and hate those who love me?
You who deny me, confess me,
and you who confess me, deny me.
You who tell the truth about me, lie about me,
and you who have lied about me, tell the truth about me.
You who know me, be ignorant of me,
and those who have not known me, let them know me.
For I am knowledge and ignorance.
I am shame and boldness.
I am shameless; I am ashamed.
I am strength and I am fear.
I am war and peace.
Give heed to me.

I am the one who is disgraced and the great one.
Give heed to my poverty and my wealth.
Do not be arrogant to me when I am cast out upon the earth,
and you will find me in those that are to come.
And do not look upon me on the dung-heap
nor go and leave me cast out,
and you will find me in the kingdoms.
And do not look upon me when I am cast out among those who
are disgraced and in the least places,
nor laugh at me.
And do not cast me out among those who are slain in violence.
But I, I am compassionate and I am cruel.

Hear me, you hearers
and learn of my words, you who know me.
I am the hearing that is attainable to everything;
I am the speech that cannot be grasped.
I am the name of the sound
and the sound of the name.
I am the sign of the letter
and the designation of the division."

Quote;
"We babble ceaselessly and never stop to listen, to know."

Exactly.

Take care.

Tony H2o

06-21-00, 11:37 PM

Stretch,

Good to see you back again :)

I liked the poem, very deep and I think I understand what was being said. Although english literature, poetry etc were never my strong points. Say at the risk of sounding ignorant did you write it or is it by some famous author and I just showed how stupid I am by not noticing?

Stretch
"Why, you who hate me, do you love me,
and hate those who love me?
You who deny me, confess me,
and you who confess me, deny me.
You who tell the truth about me, lie about me,
and you who have lied about me, tell the truth about me.
You who know me, be ignorant of me,
and those who have not known me, let them know me.
For I am knowledge and ignorance.
I am shame and boldness.
I am shameless; I am ashamed.
I am strength and I am fear.
I am war and peace.
Give heed to me.

I am the one who is disgraced and the great one.
Give heed to my poverty and my wealth.
Do not be arrogant to me when I am cast out upon the earth,
and you will find me in those that are to come.
And do not look upon me on the dung-heap
nor go and leave me cast out,
and you will find me in the kingdoms.
And do not look upon me when I am cast out among those who
are disgraced and in the least places,
nor laugh at me.
And do not cast me out among those who are slain in violence.
But I, I am compassionate and I am cruel.

Hear me, you hearers
and learn of my words, you who know me.
I am the hearing that is attainable to everything;
I am the speech that cannot be grasped.
I am the name of the sound
and the sound of the name.
I am the sign of the letter
and the designation of the division."

Silence
"We babble ceaselessly and never stop to listen, to know."

Stretch
Exactly.

Babble ceaslessly seems to have struck a chord with you and from the poem you posted. From it I gather the feeling that very few of our words truly do justice to that which we seek to explain. Very few of our thoughts and our concepts or understandings of who and what it is we are discussing here can truly capture the total essence of who He is. It very much reminds me of Solomon's mindset when he wrote Ecclesiastes, specifically the following chapter and verse. (one of my favorite)

Ecclesiastes 3:

1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.
9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboreth?
10 I have seen the travail which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith.
11 He hath made everything beautiful in its time: also he hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.
12 I know that there is nothing better for them, than to rejoice, and to do good so long as they live.
13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy good in all his labor, is the gift of God.
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it; and God hath done it, that men should fear before him.
15 That which is hath been long ago; and that which is to be hath long ago been: and God seeketh again that which is passed away.
16 And moreover I saw under the sun, in the place of justice, that wickedness was there; and in the place of righteousness, that wickedness was there.
17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

We vainly attempt to capture that which is eternal and everlasting in words that will be consumed by time. We attempt to contemplate and understand the infinite which eludes us and is beyond our finite abilities and capacity.

And in our attempts to do so we become lost in a sea of words, confussed by our own understandings and lack there of.

"I am the speech that cannot be grasped.
I am the name of the sound
and the sound of the name."

"He hath made everything beautiful in its time: also he hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end. "

It think that they both felt the same things, there is more to grasp than can be grasped, more to comprehend than can be comprehended, more to understand than can be understood, more ways to look at things than there is time to look, more words and more speech than there is time to contemplate that which really is and that which is actually being said.

Allcare

Tony

http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif

[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited June 21, 2000).]

Silence

06-22-00, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by Lori:
Silence,

Who are you calling a fool dear? That's not very nice ya know? And wisdom is NEVER wasted, and speaking the word of God is never in vain. Your dribbling bs is though. See Pash, it's all about intent. Get it?

Very touchy today? Why do you lash out at me?

Your dribbling bs is though.

And wisdom is NEVER wasted, and speaking the word of God is never in vain.

And why cast your pearls before the swine?

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

The pearls speak of wisdom and truth, the swine speak of those who continualy trample the truth and turn on the ones who sought to share the wisdom and truth. Sound familiar?

I have called none a fool.

I have quoted God's Word in regard to the frustration of attempting to correct those who do not wish to hear in an effort to encourage Tony H2o. He has given wisely and without account for himself, Jesus did likewise. Tony kicks himself because people will not listen, it is not his fault. If they have been foolish and overlooked the words of truth and life given by believers here then it is on their own heads that judgement will fall, they have chosen their "path" as most wiccans do without due consideration to what many here have given to show them the truth. Many idel words of endless discussion and still the same key points of contention, the very same "reasons" to deny what they in their very hearts know to be true. Yet time after time they trample the truth underfoot.

I have called none a fool.

I have quoted the words of Jesus in He who has ears to hear let Him listen to what the Spirit of God is saying.

If the Spirit of God shows follishness we need to stop and listen, to be corrected and made whole. He does not always give goose bumps and thrills but convicts for righteousness and holyness. He will never condem which involves endless guilt but will convict and if what He is say speaks of foolishness then we should listen and try to understand lest we be likened to swine and the later in the chapter to those who called but Lord didn't we........

The one called Stretch has knowledge of this, yet struggles with his understanding of Jehovah? Think beyond your emotions friend, see beyond your own knowledge and understanding.

Tony H2o, I said what was to be said, you herd what the Spirit was speaking and not my words.

Let he who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit of God is speaking. For soon a time will be upon us when all words will return to us and in silence we will behold the truth of our vanity.

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Be still now before silence befalls you.

Silence

[This message has been edited by Silence (edited June 21, 2000).]

Searcher

06-22-00, 01:15 AM

OK who is this?
You know way to much about me for this to be a fluke. You just quoted one of my favorite scriptures!!!

Flash, is that you? Playing games? Maybe not you don't know my favorite scriptures.

Tony,

Maybe it is one of your friends with whom you attend church? Perhaps it is someone to whom you've complained in frustration about your efforts to convert the Pagans and other non-Christians on this board to Christianity? If so, I don't think it's very nice of this person to play these mind games with you! Silence - why don't you at least admit to Tony who you are?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Tony H2o

06-22-00, 02:09 AM

Searcher,

Tony,

Maybe it is one of your friends with whom you attend church? Perhaps it is someone to whom you've complained in frustration about your efforts to convert the Pagans and other non-Christians on this board to Christianity? If so, I don't think it's very nice of this person to play these mind games with you! Silence - why don't you at least admit to Tony who you are?

Thanks for the thoughts but I don't think that could be the case. You see i haven't told anyone I know about this place, and I mean anyone. Not even my wife knows the burden I carry for the people here. I know that sounds dumb but that's the way it is, the oportunity to discuss it never came up and well now its like way complex to explain so I just talk to the Lord about it. He is the absolute only one that I have spoken to about this place.

That's why I don't get bent outta shape when people say things that hit home here. If Flash or Lori or even you, Mooncat, Tiassa or anyone says something that hits home a point that God is trying to get across to me then I can safely say it was His alone.

See what I'm saying here??

There is absolutely no way that I have spoken to anyone bar Flash and Lori a bit on email about this place, and how I felt. That's why I asked Flash if it was her, but it wasen't and isn't.

Go figure hey?

Allcare

Tony

Tony H2o

06-22-00, 03:14 AM

Originally posted by Searcher:

Maybe it is one of your friends with whom you attend church? Perhaps it is someone to whom you've complained in frustration about your efforts to convert the Pagans and other non-Christians on this board to Christianity?
[/B]

Searcher,

Someone who I've complained in frustration to because people won't convert.

Gee and I though you knew me better than that :(

Yes I do want to see people converted, not just converted but to come to a place of understanding who God really is, what He is really like, what He has truly done for human kind.

Yes I get frustrated and sometimes that shows here, I may have even complained in flustration about the people here. But I've always look more at what I could do to help in the understanding. Honestly I'm at a point of not knowing what will make people here see? Sure its frustrating, I guess what Silence is trying to get across is not to be as frustrated at myself and the words I use to try and explain complex issues. I think that Silence is trying to say along with Stretch that we need to listen better and try to understand what is already before us, God's Word. We debate and talk about issues but rarely do we ever try to hear what is being said, either by God or others. Man alive especially by God, maybe a little to confronting for us all this truth business. Kind or reminds me of the following:

Psalms 19:
12 Who has full knowledge of his errors? make me clean from secret evil (hidden sins).
13 Keep your servant back from sins of pride; let them not have rule over me: then will I be upright and free from great sin.
14 Let the words of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart be pleasing in your eyes, O Lord, my strength and my salvation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I try not to sound like a whiner and whinger and I'm sorry if I do. I'd like to see the spec in my own eye before whining about the log in anothers.

Allcare

Tony

http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif

Silence

06-22-00, 03:57 AM

Maybe it is one of your friends with whom you attend church? Perhaps it is someone to whom you've complained in frustration about your efforts to convert the Pagans and other non-Christians on this board to Christianity? If so, I don't think it's very nice of this person to play these mind games with you! Silence - why don't you at least admit to Tony who you are?

The Searching one,

For what reason do you call yourself Searcher if you have found your path? For what reason do you come unless......??

Regarding Tony H2o he and I are one in the Spirit of God. Besides, what have I spoken to him that any other with insight and understanding could not have spoken to him? What have I said that has offended him? He has not taken issue with me, has he? If I have crawled into his mind or have reached his heart it is because he has given his heart to be herd here. Have you herd the cry of his heart? Have you stopped to listen to what the Spirit of God is saying to you, the one who searches?

Searcher, your mind holds you back from hearing the very answers to the questions, the answers your heart of hearts already knows.

Be honest with yourself.

You know, and He knows.

Selah

Silence

Flash

06-22-00, 05:41 AM

Silence,
Yes, a place of discussion, a place of debate. But are these words wasted on the foolish who refuse to listen?

I have read and I have seen the mercy of the Lord towards those here. But as fools they refuse to listen. How many words must be spoken to ones such as these? Ceaseless, endless banter, ever returning to the same arguments and never learning.

Many here have spoken great wisdom, but is that wisdom not wasted? Many here have tarried long, but has their journey been in vain? Many here have spoken great truth and revealed great mysteries with great understanding, but who has listened and who has herd?

Those that have ears to hear let them listen to what has been spoken.

I'd like to comment on your post above. First, this is a debate forum...we all have learned from one another at some point in time.
I realize you are new here..so I'd like to give you a brief history of my debates with Lori, Tony, and other christians here. To make it short and very simple...I was NOT a christian when I discovered this site. I came here for other reasons. This religious section was added when the new format came about. Lori and I have personally debated God/Jesus for over a year...FOR OVER ONE YEAR..same discussion...same things..etc....
Now, had Lori, Tony, and others gave up..I am positive that I would not be a christian today. Yes, I realize that I came to the Lord because of the Holy Spirit... however, God did indeed USE them to witness and speak directly to my heart! I am a living testimony that what they are doing here is NOT in vain. If you want more proof..just do a search on me and you'll find what I say is true. I thank God that they did not wipe the dust from their feet and give up on me. I'm glad that they listened to God and didn't give a time limit of when I had heard enough. So what I'm really wondering here is how many people have given up all because they didn't see positive results right away? Although we might not see the big picture..or able to see into others hearts...God does. Out of others on this board I'd be considered one of the least likely to ever have a personal relationship with Him. Tony once equated me to Saul/Paul (although I am a woman LOL) ..and you know... that was sooooooo very true. I was at a point where I hated Jesus. I wanted nothing more than to show the christians out here that Jesus was a fraud..and show them the "real" light. I believed it and my intentions were very sincere. However, I came across in a very bad way.
On another note...so because my friends Tiassa, MC, Searcher, and others are not in line with how you think they should believe... well, let me just say, I have actually come to care about them..and just because some of them may not see eye to eye like I do...I'd become something I totally despise if I held it against them because of it. I think such judgement is totally crazy! I also think this type of judgement is what turns non-christians stomachs against other christians who hold such judgements. Well, I know it sure did mine..and still does!
I'm also not really sure exactly what your point to Tony is... I mean you have implied, or so it seems, that what he and others are doing here is in vain and maybe even wrong?? So why is it that you are here, Silence? If you have determined in your mind and heart that others here will not listen or learn ... I mean what gives? :confused:

Sincerely,
Flash

Silence

06-22-00, 07:09 AM

Flash,

Your words bring delight to me, to know you once were lost in this world but now are found. Delight and joy.

You speak well of those that God used to reach you, can we look at this differently?

Suppose that Tony, Lori and others have spoken all they can speak here?

Suppose that God has not finished speaking to these others but has seen His servants grow tired?

Suppose they struggle on and find themselves in a frame of mind and a state of heart that would not be what God would have people here see?

Suppose that they may need time to rest in Him?

I am not saying for anyone to give up, I am saying that some may need rest before coming into the battle. Do you now see what I say?

There is one here called ISDAman who I would believe knows what I say to be true. There is one here called Lori who when she tires becomes frail and frustrated, people do not see her as she may well be. There is Tony H2o, he has fought alongside these others and also seems weighed down. There is a person called Pashly who stands firm on moral ground but exasperation is confronting him.

I say that none should give up but that they should consider where best to place their valuable hearts. How often should they have them trampled underfoot? How often by the same people? Time and time again? How often can they withstand this? How many others are there in this world who would be grateful to hear their message? Who would welcome their wisdom? Who would consider thoughfully their message and the vision they impart?

Give up on spreading the Good News? Never let that be the case.

Give up on speaking it many times over to those who choose and have choosen not to listen? That requires great thought and prayerful consideration.

If there are those in this room that are hiding as you hid, come out.

Do not fear, do not be afraid, do not shy away and let the moment pass. For if today is not the day of your salvation, tomorrow may never be.

How long should God contend with mockers?

Perhaps I am here to help these others rest. But know this, I do not cast that which is precious before swine time and again.

If they wish to understand for the sake of salvation I will contend. But I will not content in endless mocking.

Silence

[This message has been edited by Silence (edited June 22, 2000).]

Stretch

06-22-00, 07:54 AM

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the welcome. Like Tiassa I also unfortunately have to give credibility to my income from time to time and do the work thing.

Your interpretation is right on target, as usual. The quote is from one the Nag Hammadi codexes, which is one of my favourite fields of study. Yet as you say, very few of our thoughts, concepts or understandings can denote who He is. There are really no “words” as such that can describe the “essence” of who/what the manifestation or mystery of God is, so all the debate going on here is extremely tenuous, and intangible. Yet, I can go there in my spirit and catch glimpses of the sublimity of the Creative Force, those moments (and those moments might be snatches of infinity) I always experience as a sense of “knowing”. So in a way we are so similar in our outlook, but I do begrudge and envy your very obvious and incredible certainty and your accompanying integrity.

“11 He hath made everything beautiful in its time: also he hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.”

Yes, yes, yes I agree, but my spirit manifests an unbearable yearning to “know” … thus my acceptance of Gods nature is blemished, and I tear at the veil of incomprehensibility that threatens to throw a shadow over my “am”.

Your quote-
“And in our attempts to do so we become lost in a sea of words, confussed by our own understandings and lack there of.”

Once again, yes, but to yield to the spectre of mans finite comprehension, is for me, to say that the voice of honest indignation is the voice of God.

Once again thanks for your response and you are an inspiration in a sea of uncertainty.

Take care.

Stretch

06-22-00, 08:16 AM

Silence,

I understand what you are saying, and you are not far off the truth, but why (with all due respect) are you, (not your quotes), speaking in the tone of the mists of time?

“Zechariah 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.”

When can we all speak up?

Take care.

Searcher

06-22-00, 11:57 PM

For what reason do you call yourself Searcher if you have found your path? For what reason do you come unless......??

Silence,

I called myself Searcher before I found my path. Perhaps it is time to change my name? How does "Emerald" sound? Hmmm...I'll give it some thought.

As for why I come - I should think that has been made clear enough to you by Flash and Lori, and perhaps others, but I suppose it bears repeating. This is a DEBATE FORUM. We come here to debate and banter with one another, to share our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, stories, etc. Most of the time it works out pretty well, and most of us seem to enjoy this little online "community" enough to keep coming back for more. It's up to you as to whether or not you think you would enjoy sticking around and putting in your two cents worth from time to time, but why do you feel the need to criticize others who have made that choice? It just so happens that I like most of the Christians on this board, and I would miss them terribly if they left. Does that surprise you?

Come down off your high horse a spell and mingle amongst the rabble, won't you Silence?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Tony H2o

06-23-00, 12:53 AM

Stretch,

Understanding comes with time and wisdom comes with understanding.

Now your probably asking why on earth is he saying this?

Because the cry I hear from your heart is a cry of understanding and wisdom. You left this forum last time with a statement to the effect that you could see God's love in Jesus yet the God of the OT you saw as a tyrant. Do you still have this confusion? A confusion that many in this place have.

Jesus spoke the words that if you seek you will find. He did not say it would be easy, He did not say I will spoon feed you, He did not say he would grant His authority or wisdom to those who were lazy or mockers. To those who did not seek to understand in the fullness of time and learning what the very character and nature of God is.

I know your cry for understanding that which is incomprehensible. There is no way that in the span of years we have been given we can completely fathom the length and breath and height of who He is. Yet having this knowledge should not stop us from wanting to grasp a glimpse of who He is. For me and the things that I have seen, I have been driven almost in my hunger to know Him in a greater way, yet even with this hunger it still takes the fullness of time for me to comprehend that which He shows me, to understand who He is. Tiassa and I once touched on discussion regarding names of God, and I think Tiassa has the same desire deep down to know and understand but expresses it differently :D .

God's names as given in the bible reflect aspects of His character and nature towards mankind who trust in Him, Jehovah my healer, Jehovah my provider, Jehovah my shield, Jehovah my peace, Jehovah my fortress, Jehovah my God, Jehovah my refuge, Jehovah my ........ He is many things to many people over a period of time and if we seek to find we can glimpse who He is, what He has done and why. Even in this though there are things that no eye has seen and no ear has heard that God has installed for those that love Him. This is why Solomon said the words he said, "but who can grasp it from beginning to end". And this is why I always harp on about the very character and nature of God, if we seek to know Him and all He is, if we seek to really understand what He has done we need to come to an understanding and knowledge of what His basic characteristics are. And what better way for God to show us than to become one of us? To become flesh and dwell amongst us, to walk the earth that we walk, to experience the things that we do, to cry like us, to laugh like us, to get angry like us, to be surprised like us, to be elated like us, to have compassion like us, to know every part of us because he was like us. He became like us so that in all ways He could have empathy with us, He became like us so that we could see He cared enough for us to lower Himself to become like us. He became one of us. He as much as we had to rely on faith in the Father for all things, He as much as we and even more had to trust in His Father completely. He had no mystical or magical abilities beyond that of faith and trust in the Father. He had no direct hot line to heaven bar that of earnest prayer like we do. And even in being all things human Jesus maintained by the discipline of His faith and trust in the Father, by the understanding of the very character and nature of the Father that came over the course of time, Jesus lived it and was made perfect in it.

Yes it becomes difficult at times to grasp, especially when the yearning is so strong. Yet in seeing how Jesus fulfilled the plan of God, the plan of eternal salvation, wow that's amazing grace. To understand the incomprehensible we need to see how and who He made Himself comprehensible to us through. When we come to that place then we see the eternal one in a new way, with new eyes and with a heart the explodes with gratitude at the revelation that stands before us so clear and certain yet we took so long to see. How ironic we are.

In the fullness of time my friend He shows us who He is, He has to do so for if it were given to us at one time we would perish. Our minds would not be able to take in all that He is, every aspect of His character, every angel of His nature, every truth of what He has done for mankind. So as we seek we find, as we knock the door is opened. He entrusts His heart, that which He truly is to those who He knows He can trust with it. To those who grow in wisdom and understanding and seek to love Him earnestly with all their heart. To the mockers that Silence speaks of, well He allows them to run around in their tangled webs of deceit eternally hoping that they will choose to stop listen and learn from that which He has already shown them.

He is an enigma to those being lost, but to those who delight in Him He shows them His face. They grow wise with understanding because they accept what He shows and learn in the fullness of time from it.

He has made open a way to comprehend who He is, He has made straight the way of salvation, Jesus is His name and faith in Him is the path to a living and loving relationship with the Eternal God, I AM that I AM.

He gives us new life, our spirits become new and alive in Him. Our minds don't understand, yet our hearts know and in the passing of time we grow in our understanding of the greatness and majesty and glory of what God has done in us through Christ.

"He hath made everything beautiful in its time: also he hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end."

Ecclesiastes 12:

10 The Preacher sought to find out acceptable words, and that which was written uprightly, even words of truth.
11 The words of the wise are as goads; and as nails well fastened are the words of the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
12 And furthermore, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment, with every hidden thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif

Silence

06-23-00, 01:44 AM

Searcher,

I humbly and kindly thank you for taking the time to offer up your answer.

Yes debate, debate, debate perhaps I did not read that bit? Sorry I am being sarcastic, debate is fine and good but when the debate is carried on in endless and repetitive cycles does it not become meaningless? A waste of time? For what good can come from a multitude of empty words? Much less than from a few spoken in wisdom, and this is my point. Many empty words that cloud the words spoken in wisdom in an effort to impart understanding. May it not be that the pearls have become trodden into the mud of many words. What a mockery we make of that which God may be saying to us by not having ears to hear.

Come down off my high horse my dear? Well that should not be to hard, my high horse is a miniature pony ;) Not to far to fall.

However it does seem that you have taken issue with me.

Be honest with me Searcher and tell me the real reason.

Might it be that I am not the issue, but the issue is what the words spoken have said to your heart? I rejoice if this is so for it shows that you still have ears to hear.

Revelation 4:

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

http://www.revelationillustrated.com/gallery/images/image05.jpg

Emerald would be nice for I would view you then as having found the true path and being close to and surrounding the throne.

Selah

Silence

Flash

06-23-00, 05:30 AM

Silence,
Suppose that Tony, Lori and others have spoken all they can speak here?

Suppose that God has not finished speaking to these others but has seen His servants grow tired?

Suppose they struggle on and find themselves in a frame of mind and a state of heart that would not be what God would have people here see?

Suppose that they may need time to rest in Him? I am not saying for anyone to give up, I am saying that some may need rest before coming into the battle. Do you now see what I say?

Well, Silence, I do see a bit better, I think, where you are coming from. Let me start by saying that I "suppose" that would be between them and God..yes? ;)

I can understand and see how others get frustrated and tired...etc... and yeah, sometimes reactions aren't the best in the world...but we ALL have our days, yes? I also think this shows the world that christians are just as human as everyone else. One of the things that really use to get to me the most was how the many christians I knew thought they were just so better than everyone else ...to the point that it felt like they thought non-christians were a whole other species not even worthy to touch their shoes. I DETEST this..and I pray to God I never ever end up like that..God help me!

Lori was the first and the only, at the time, christian I met here at this site. The one thing that drew me to her the most was that I felt she was not this fake goody-two shoes person who thought their feces didn't stink. She was real...that may not mean anything to you..but, it meant a lot to me.

I do understand when one becomes tired that they may need a break..mostly to spend quality time with God. I believe that He is what brings light and rejuvenation to our souls.

I also realize that non-christians too, become tired. It works both ways.

*zzzzzzz zzzzzzzz* I'm falling asleep here..and I apologize. It's been a rather long night. Knowing how I am when I am tired...I realize I'm not making any sense right now :D

Here is the deal also...I can't speak for Lori, Tony, Pashley, and ISDAMan...but, I really like these people out here...regardless if they are a believer or not. I am not going to stop coming here because they may not see my point of view. Further, they offer a great deal of insight on many issues. I enjoy talking with them. We believe differently...so what? Does that mean I have to write them off? Heck no! Ugh! I hate using the word they and us..it's so not right!

I'll reply better tomorrow..I just can't right now :)

Sincerely,

Flash

Silence

06-23-00, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Stretch:
Silence,

I understand what you are saying, and you are not far off the truth, but why (with all due respect) are you, (not your quotes), speaking in the tone of the mists of time?

“Zechariah 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.”

When can we all speak up?

Take care.

Speak now who you follow or forever be ready to hold your peace.

Speak now who you choose for a time is coming and is almost upon us when the folly of our words will pass away.

There will be no speech, there will be no words, there will be no excuses, only silence and an eternal knowledge of that which was squandered. Silence which will yeild to anguish, despair, wailing and nashing of teeth for those who chose not to heed while time allowed them. Who chose not to listen or to understand the depth of the message given. Who trampled underfoot the pearl of great prize.

Speak now, choose now, decide this day or face the inevitable silence.

Selah

Silence

MoonCat

06-23-00, 11:27 AM

Snicker, snicker.

Sorry, I'm cracking up a bit here. :)

Searcher, you change your name if you feel like it, or not, as you choose. I have come to think of "Searcher" as referring to your prowess in finding the most amazing stuff on the 'net, but I guess I see why it confuses others with that name on this particular forum. But, as you are aware, I think "Emerald" is a fabulous name too. :) I'll let you burst Silence's bubble as to the origin of that name though.

Silence,

If you see this debate forum as fruitless, why are YOU here? Are you not participating in the same actions you are criticizing? Or are your statements somehow different from the rest? I don't see the difference. Are you hoping that somehow you will convert us heathens where Tony and the rest have failed?? Good luck with that one, bub! :)

Lori

06-23-00, 04:10 PM

Silence,

Where is the swine? Show me the swine. There is no swine; that's what I'm saying.

I'm not sure if this is your point, but this is the way I see it. This is a really good way to talk about God and His word. I learn things about my faith, and other's, and I'm sure they've learned something new about mine. There have been times when I have caught myself feeling distraught and frustrated, like Tony has, only I have a much bigger mouth than Tony does. That ain't right, and I try not to do that. Do you know what that is? It's idolatry. Self-pity is a form of it, when you are worshipping yourself. Giving into those natural inclinations and emotions you know? And yea, that's vain. But other than that, there's not a thing wrong with preaching and witnessing and sharing ideas. It's a good thing. ;)

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Tiassa

06-23-00, 09:44 PM

I offer the following, Perdurabo's Ninth Psalm, from The Book of Lies

THE BRANKS

Being is the Noun; Form is the adjective.
Matter is the Noun; Motion is the Verb.

Wherefore hath Being clothed itself with Form?

Wherefore hath Matter manifested itself in Motion?

Answer not, O silent one! For THERE is no "wherefore", no "because".

The name of THAT is not known; the Pronoun interprets, that is misinterprets, It.

Time and Space are Adverbs.

Duality begat the Conjunction.

The Conditioned is Father of the Preposition.

The Article also marketh Division; but the Interjection is the sound that endeth in the Silence.

Destroy therefore the Eight Parts of Speech; the Ninth is nigh unto Truth.

This also must be destroyed before thou enterest into The Silence.

Aum.

I think the one thing which we all might be aware of, though I'm sure I will express it poorly and generally, is that no matter how much we choose to argue about God, we are closest to the Divine Secret when we are silent; not just silent with our mouths, but with our thoughs and souls.

Another of Perdurabo's Psalms (I forget the number; it is referred to as Steeped Horsehair) insists that the only time at which the human male's mind is blank is at orgasm. This is hardly as perverse as it sounds; Frater P merely referred to the fact that the mind is utterly, completely focused on the moment of climax, and distracted by nothing else. That sense of pure "nothing", Perdurabo reasoned, was imitative of notions of silence. It should be noted that Perdurabo's title for the volume, The Book of Lies is to be taken at least quasi-literally. In that sense, I'm hoping to avoid arguments over the idea of Boinking for Jesus. But I do think the Lie occurs if we try to translate literally, and spend our time mounting this or that mate and praying for Jesus to come. But you can take it as you like; Perdurabo was, among other things, quite the slut.

that's my few cents ...,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Silence

06-24-00, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by MoonCat:

But, as you are aware, I think "Emerald" is a fabulous name too. :) I'll let you burst Silence's bubble as to the origin of that name though.

There is no bubble to burst, I spoke in a vision of that which I pray for the one called Emerald Searcher. A vision and a hope of her being close again to the heart of the Eternal Lord of all Glory. Where is the fault in hoping for the best for a person? Even though they may not see what I see as truth. I see your love for your friend and a sense of protection in your words, she is fortunate to have people care for her and speak on her behalf.

Originally posted by MoonCat:

Silence,

If you see this debate forum as fruitless, why are YOU here? Are you not participating in the same actions you are criticizing? Or are your statements somehow different from the rest? I don't see the difference. Are you hoping that somehow you will convert us heathens where Tony and the rest have failed?? Good luck with that one, bub! :)

Words are fruitless and futile regardless of the wisdom contained if the ears hearing do not hear what is being said.

My words are just as fruitless when others determine a mind set about what I say without considering to whom I speak and for what reason.

Are you still able to hear dear Mooncat? Or are your ears so tightly shut that you to become a mocker, one who seeks to insult and inflame whit consideration or understanding of what is being passed on? Do not consider this an insult dear Mooncat, I simply ask that people stop and listen. The is much background noise, whitenoise that hinders us from hearing the music of wisdom.

I think that none here can play that music in the same way that I have read Tony H2o play it, yet he still struggles to conduct and put together the masterpiece of his heart.

Let us all be inspired to hear what is being played.

Let wisdom sing an eternal song to our hearts.

Let us find salvation in the one that wisdom sings of.

Then we may see people understand and believe.

I am not in competition to others who have come seeking to show the truth, wanting for souls to be saved. I am in union with them, I am another part of the same body that we are in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Selah

Silence

[This message has been edited by Silence (edited June 23, 2000).]

Searcher

06-24-00, 01:08 AM

Come down off my high horse my dear? Well that should not be to hard, my high horse is a miniature pony Not to far to fall.

However it does seem that you have taken issue with me.

Be honest with me Searcher and tell me the real reason.

Silence,

It's the "tone" of your messages more than anything else. It strikes me as being rather pretentious, know what I mean? Other Christians come here and share their beliefs with everyone else here, and most don't use that "holier-than-thou" way of addressing others. Maybe you don't intend to come off that way, and maybe you don't even realize it - all mysterious and full of wisdom, like some kind of oracle or something. I apologize if I've misjudged you in any way, but that's how you sound to me, and yes, it's kind of annoying to us real folks down here. That's what I mean by getting off your "high horse".

Are you still able to hear dear Mooncat? Or are your ears so tightly shut that you to become a mocker, one who seeks to insult and inflame whit consideration or understanding of what is being passed on?

Sorry, but this does not describe MoonCat at all. She may be kind of feisty, which I find to be a rather endearing trait, but I do not see her as one who seeks to insult and inflame. She's a kind-hearted and intelligent person, and one who I do indeed consider myself fortunate to count as a friend.

You are welcome to share your beliefs, and we always enjoy a good debate here at the forum, and maybe even a personal story or two. Just don't place yourself so far above us, okay? :)

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Stretch

06-24-00, 01:07 PM

Silence,

Ditto Searcher ... pleeeze spekay da englaish ... (with all due respect)
Once we can percieve you on our own plain, we can plough together.

Take care.

666

06-25-00, 03:05 AM

Silence,

Ok I stayed out of this for a while hopping it would get better, but no more! I don't think you understand how holyier than thou and pompous you are coming off. The tone in your post is as if you are all ready sitting next to God and surveying our your subjects. To that all I have to say is. SCREW OFF!!!

Infinity

06-25-00, 03:11 AM

Yeah silence. Why don't you go back to woodstock with the rest of the hippies...you dildo!

Silence

06-25-00, 11:01 PM

All,

I note you all seem to think I am aloof. I note that you all seem to consider it within your rigth to abuse and to insult because of the way of my speech.

If I sound this way do accept my apologies, if english were my only language the maybe I would have sounded different.

It is such a sad shame to see people make assumptions about a person without understanding of that person in any way. You have all very high expectations of other but no charity to those who are different. You all expect people to express the same way and be as good with your language as you are.

When people say things like this it show how narrow minded and closed minded you are in this debate board. You have no concept of how difficult it can be for people who have a different mother tounge to speak yours. Let alone try to understand what you mean by the words you say.

Stretch.
pleeeze spekay da englaish

666.
The tone in your post is as if you are all ready sitting next to God and surveying our your subjects. To that all I have to say is. SCREW OFF!!!

Infinity
Yeah silence. Why don't you go back to woodstock with the rest of the hippies...you dildo!

Well I think this about sums up the level of peoples intelligence and open mindedness here. Not to forget how accepting they may be of those who are slightly different or foriegn and may not phrase or word as well as them. May God help me if I ever phrash as well as they have above.

I insulted no person here, I came to offer hope and help to others who came to offer hope and help. I came to understand people and not insult people. Shame on you all for your bitter twisted hearts, I did not attack you and you feel it right to turn and attack me without understanding of who I am. Is it any wonder you will not listen to people like ISDAman, Pashley and Tony H2o? Is it any wonder that you do not look to see or hear what they share about who the God they serve truly is?

So now I wipe the dust from my feet and pray that God show you mercy on that day.

Goodby

Selah

Silence

Searcher

06-25-00, 11:44 PM

I note you all seem to think I am aloof. I note that you all seem to consider it within your rigth to abuse and to insult because of the way of my speech.

If I sound this way do accept my apologies, if english were my only language the maybe I would have sounded different.

It is such a sad shame to see people make assumptions about a person without understanding of that person in any way. You have all very high expectations of other but no charity to those who are different. You all expect people to express the same way and be as good with your language as you are.

When people say things like this it show how narrow minded and closed minded you are in this debate board. You have no concept of how difficult it can be for people who have a different mother tounge to speak yours. Let alone try to understand what you mean by the words you say.

Silence,

First of all - I was not trying to insult you. I was only trying to give you some feedback that would help you to see how you are coming across to others, and why that puts some people off.

Secondly, with all due respect - balderdash! Now you're trying to play the role of the martyr - and it isn't a pretty sight. Before this last post I had no problems with your English, either your grammar or your spelling. In fact, if I had been a teacher grading you strictly on your grammar and spelling, I would have given you at least a "B". And most of the errors I did see looked more like minor typos than anything else. English may not be your only language, but I'm having a tough time believing that it wasn't your first language. Regardless, you have demonstrated a firm enough grasp of the English language to be able to avoid coming off as though you were sitting on the right hand of God surveying your subjects, as 666 so aptly put it.

With that being said, if you would like to stay, I would like to have you (I cannot speak for anyone here but myself). If you feel you must wipe the dust from your feet, then I wish you well.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Tony H2o

06-26-00, 12:09 AM

Well dosen't this just take the cake!!

Who the hell thinks they have the right to sit back and watch a discussion, make judgement and then enter in and insult??

SCREW OFF!!!

you dildo!

At least Searcher tried to explain the way this individual sounded, but you two just waltz in and attack with no consideration of what this person is saying.

I agree with Silence, you guys should be way embaresed by the words you spoke and the way you spoke them.

I'd better stop here because I'm way angry about this and may say regretable things.

I'm seriously wondering what the hell the point is of trying to speak to you people when you can't even be civilised to someone new who you don't even know.

Man alive this burns me up.

Tony H2o

06-26-00, 12:31 AM

And another thing!

People like The Word get kicked off for trying to offer up hope to others with quotes from "YES" the Bible.

Then idiots who think they can just insult anyone come around making derogatory remarks and insults, and they don't even get a slap on the wrist??????

Go figure that logic out will ya??

OK guys feel free to insult, to accuse, to mock, to be rude etc etc etc. But under no circumstances offer up any words of hope because that's just not done. Its not good for the ratings to be nice so feel free to spice it up a bit.

Dave W again I ask U what's the go?

Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.

Are you going to lay down the law for these individuals also????

I consider what they have said to be included in the above. They are abusive, vulgar, hateful, obscene, profane, sexually oriented.

And in case you don't read it here Dave W, I'll be e-mailing my complaint to you.

Tony H2o

[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited June 25, 2000).]

Searcher

06-26-00, 01:40 AM

People like The Word get kicked off for trying to offer up hope to others with quotes from "YES" the Bible.

Tony,

I'm beginning to wonder where I've been - The Word got kicked off? I'm sorry to hear it. I don't recall that this individual ever said anything offensive. To the best of my knowledge, he/she simply went around quoting the Bible. Although many of us did not consider that to be useful input in a debate forum, I can hardly believe he/she was kicked off for it. There must have been something else that escaped our notice? Does anyone else know what happened? Very strange, indeed.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Oxygen

06-26-00, 01:50 AM

Tony- Funny, you never acted this way when Lori opened fire on anybody. (Lori-I hope you don't mind me using your name in this reference.) She even taught me and 666 a few new phrases, and I've been in the Navy!

I agree with an earlier post that the idioms and expressions Silence is using make him or her sound arrogant, aloof, and "holier than thou". Of course this sort of thing is going to draw fire. It gives off all the appearance of putting on airs, which I believe is tied to one of the seven deadly sins somehow. Vanity I think it is. Perhaps if Silence tried talking to us as brothers and sisters instead of as inferiors, hinting in his or her posts that non-believers are swine, dogs and fools, maybe others would respond in kind.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

666

06-26-00, 02:02 AM

Silence,

Not attacking any one???? Let me grab a few quotes form you, ware you used passages in bible to call those of us here who do not belive what you do fools and swine. Do not consider this an attack on "us" personaly??? Besides it wasn't just those statements that peeved me, but arrogance in the way delivered them and the way you tried to defend doing so.

Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Oh and I frogot you called us dogs too.

Lets not forget the fact the through out this Lori has nicely pointed this out to you. What part of that did you miss. Just in case you missed it here it is again.

Silence,
Who are you calling a fool dear? That's not very nice ya know? And wisdom is NEVER wasted, and speaking the word of God is never in vain. Your dribbling bs is though. See Pash, it's all about intent. Get it?

Tony,

I belive the above speaks for it self!

Also who are you to tell everyone who can and can not post???

Then idiots who think they can just insult anyone come around making derogatory remarks and insults, and they don't even get a slap on the wrist??????

You in turn get upset and do the same thing you were complaing about. How hypocritical!

Slap...slap...Slap...

I have one question for you. How often have you seen me run around making derogatory remarks and insults without provocation? The religus intolerance that was coming from Silence was reminiscent of the Third Reich.

If one does not like to be treated with such words they should not be making such broad sweeping statements implying all non belivers and dogs, fools and swine. Did you realy think we would miss that?

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited June 25, 2000).]

Tony H2o

06-26-00, 03:13 AM

Oxy

Funny you should mention that about Lori, because you are 100% right there.

I nearly did say something about her telling Samus to **** Off in the Why are you here discussion. I don't care if its "sinner" or "saint" doing it, if its foul mouthed then its foul mouthed, if its an insult directed at an individual (get that T6? directed at an individual? Hang tight I'll come back to you and spell it out) Yes insulting an individual directly without trying to get where they are coming from......well maybe I'm stupid but last time I checked that was slander and defamation of character. Especially when you don't even take time out to understand the person and just jump in and insult.

Now if you want to get back to what Lori has taught you take it up with her. Personally I don't agree with having a foul mouth.

And you know what Oxy you really take a prize bite with the last line of your post. How is it when it suits your means you decide to start quoting the thing you don't even believe in??? Or the one you don't believe in???

Maybe T6 can take a stab at spelling out the hypocrite thing for us, I mean he seems to think he knows all about it.

T6

Touchy, touchy, touchy....Do we really want to go here?

OK we've been on opposing sides for a while and up till now we have managed to be quite amicable to each other. But things change, don't they?

Firstly lets talk about attacking shall we?

Silence said the things you quoted, however she did not name a name or direct an insult to an individual in any post. You on the other hand choose to do exactly that!!

Silence offered up some bible verses for consideration, this was to point out that we don't always listen to what is being said. Now if you want to go and take that all personal and stuff then I would say that it was not only Silence talking to you but God's word. Silence continually stated that the word's she posted were not to attack or directed at any one individual. All that Silence wanted was for people to listen. If you got bent outta shape about what was being said then maybe you should have asked for clarification rather than telling the person to "Screw Off". That is a direct insult!! Silence did not directly insult anyone!!

Do you see the difference???

Secondly lets talk about arrogance shall we??

OK I'll admit Silence may have appeared "aloof" but then taking into account the explanation offered it may also have been as a result of language barriers or not fully grasping how everyday people speak English. Did you ever stop to consider how hard that can be?? I know first hand coming from a duel language family myself. The way things are phrased in the Dutch language is significantly different than English, just ask Plato. So why get bent out of shape and attack without even attempting to understand or ask?? At least Searcher showed some tack in dropping hints rather than just plain insulting the poor person. In case your not aware the kind of behaviour that reverts to attacking is called rude and shows a lack of social, interpersonal and communication skills. Its what we used to do in the play ground at primary school, but then some of us grew up and some of us didn't.

Rather than slagging off about arrogance the fella in the mirror may be trying to tell us something about ignorance.

And then there's the Idiot's :D

Seriously, how can you even compare idiot in a general statement to telling someone directly to "Screw Off" or calling them a "Dildo"?????

I was angry and let my temper flare up and get away from me. As you and others know I don't normally react by calling people names regardless of if the tag fits or not. However I think the term idiot used in a general statement is a bit softer than directly telling someone to "Screw Off" or calling them a "Dildo" don't you?? No I didn't think so ;)

Think of it as an exasperated Tony who can not for the life of him fathom why people can hurl direct insults and not be held accountable??? Yet when someone else offers up quotes from their favourite religious book, (in this case the Bible) in an effort to show how it relates to their discussion, well then they get banned from the site???

Silence in a nut shell:

We all can get a bit miffed at each other and misunderstand what someone is saying. Its how we react that show's our true character. For me, well I think that Silence was simply trying to say this and ask us all to listen a little more clearly.

T6 if what she/he said got your back up so much that you considered that you were within your rights to directly abuse them, well you have probably done them a great favour without even knowing it.

Silence you are welcome to come back.

Tony H2o

Infinity

06-26-00, 03:28 AM

oooh, yeah, I'm so scared. Im going to burn in hell for calling someone a dildo....gee, you religous people are so sensative. What's the world coming to, I can't even call someone a dildo!

Tony H2o

06-26-00, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by Searcher:
Tony,

I'm beginning to wonder where I've been - The Word got kicked off? I'm sorry to hear it. I don't recall that this individual ever said anything offensive. To the best of my knowledge, he/she simply went around quoting the Bible. Although many of us did not consider that to be useful input in a debate forum, I can hardly believe he/she was kicked off for it. There must have been something else that escaped our notice? Does anyone else know what happened? Very strange, indeed.

Searcher,

She did nothing but post up simple Biblical passages. The apparent reason she was banned was because she did not explain what was meant in them. They were in my opinion in keeping with the theam of discussion being carried out.

End result = Banned

I am still awaiting an offical line of response to the questions raised in the feedback section.

Tony

Infinity

06-26-00, 03:44 AM

Looks like your about to have a heart attack or something....this is gonna keep you up all night. You'll probably have nightmares...

Tony H2o

06-26-00, 04:50 AM

Infinity.

I can't even call someone a dildo!

Not according to Dave W's rules that you said you agreed to Infinity. But then that's Dave's choice isn't it? I mean he's good at getting rid of the riff raff ;)

And regarding the burning thing.

We make our eternal decisions in the here and now, not the there and then.

We make our eternal decisions by ourselves and by the way we LISTEN and RESPOND to what God is trying to get through our thick skulls!!

P.S Thanks for not calling me a name :)

[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited June 26, 2000).]

Oxygen

06-26-00, 11:53 AM

Tony-To me the bible is no more than a literary work. I quote it when it suits me, just as I do Twain, Emerson, and any other literary source. I don't believe in the devil, either, but I quote Anton LaVey when it fits the situation.

As far as being insulted, I'd rather have them hurled directly at me, as 666 and Lori do, instead of hearing them sneaking around my back. I believe 666's posts show where Silence directly insulted those of us who do not believe as he or she does. I do not fault any retaliation, especially the direct one. Eye for an eye, you know.

MoonCat

06-26-00, 12:35 PM

Whew!! I turn my back on a thread for a SECOND, and miss all the "fun".

Tony,

Okay, I can see both sides of this argument. Tony, I don't think Silence is as harmless and well-meaning as you take him/her to be, but I also think some of these insults (666, Infinity) are too harsh.

My personal point: My original post:

"Silence,

If you see this debate forum as fruitless, why are YOU here? Are you not participating in the same actions you are criticizing? Or are your statements somehow different from the rest? I don't see the difference. Are you hoping that somehow you will convert us heathens where Tony and the rest have failed?? Good luck with that one, bub! :) "

Now, I did not mean ANYTHING offensive by this. I meant it as a bit of a poke at him, yes, but a friendly one (hence the smiley). I was simply trying to discover how he/she feels his/her posts are different from other's, like yours Tony. I thought that was clear, and non-insulting.

Silence's reply:

"Are you still able to hear dear Mooncat? Or are your ears so tightly shut that you to become a mocker, one who seeks to insult and inflame whit consideration or understanding of what is being passed on? Do not consider this an insult dear Mooncat, I simply ask that people stop and listen."

Now to me, this sounds rather insulting. Silence has all but called most of us swine, dogs, etc. but then he/she has to come out directly to me and basically call me a close-minded "mocker" without bothering to ask for clarification, etc. This makes him/her just as guilty as the rest on this board that you're fussing to Tony, in my eyes anyway. Maybe he/she phrased it a bit neater, but it's still insults, no matter how flowery it's put out.

You will please note that I DID NOT insult Silence, at least not intentionally, yet Silence intentionally insulted me. I don't buy his/her "don't take this as an insult" line, that's just a coverup as far as I'm concerned.

Stretch's comment I don't see as a huge insult either, though Silence singled that one out with the other's too. It seems to me that Silence could use a big scoop of humor, or else maybe he/she really IS out of touch with English, because I thought Stretch's comment was rather friendly. It basically asked Silence to speak more "commonly" (I guess is the word I want) and invited more discussion beyond that, am I right? ("Once we can percieve you on our own plain, we can plough together." Sure sounds like an invitation to me, anyway) I doubt anyone realized Silence was not born speaking English, as Searcher pointed out, his vocabulary and grammar were quite good. If Silence would have taken the time to actually address that assumption instead of getting all upset...and maybe cut back on the insults a bit...I think things would have been much "nicer". So if you're pointing fingers, Tony, I think Silence deserves to be pointed at a couple of times here too, just to be fair.

Silence fussed that he/she did not come here to insult people, ("I insulted no person here, I came to offer hope and help to others who came to offer hope and help. I came to understand people and not insult people." - well, actually Silence DID insult me) but that is contrary to the tone and words in most of his/her posts. (Dangit, I wish I knew if Silence was male or female, I'm tired of that dang slash!) My opinion is that Silence did indeed intend to insult people, either that or he/she is marvelously clumsy in a way that causes his/her words to become insults automatically as he/she types. Of course I could be wrong, but that is my impression to date, and since I'm not the only person on this board with that impression I can't feel too unsure of it. I'm not the only one who sees that, in other words.

But, I still can't condone the out-and-out namecalling others indulged in. I think it was a bit extreme for the stuff Silence was saying, but not entirely undeserved either. The response was what I would expect, though I think the degree was too strong. See what I'm trying to say here?

Hope that helps a bit, Tony. We still friends? :)

666

06-26-00, 06:17 PM

Tony,

No Silence did not come and say "666 your a dog, fool, and a swine.", but he / she sure did direct it at an entire group. One that I am part of. I don't mind some one posting quotes from the bible, but rember this the words and statements in the bible are not all ways nice. When you use quotes like that and direct them at entire group you insult the entire group. I have to stop and wonder about how much the language gets in the way. Especaily after when it was less harshly point out that he / she was insulting others Silence responded with a "arent you touchy today?". That shows the person understands, or at least implys. You can look at this another way. if I were to quote from a neo nazi rag "all blacks are dumb and should be slaves." and direct it at entire group. Then turn and say I'm not saying this to offend any one. I'm going to receive a ton of back lash. Why should it be any different for someone quoting the bible? That makes no sence to me, and yes insulting an entire group is directly insulting everyone in that group. The only difference in my opion is that it takes less courage to insult an entier facless group than an individual.

I don't feel that Silence shouldn't be here. Just that she / he should chose thier words a little better. Just as it has been pointed out that when someone takes a big dig at someone with bad spelling uses the smily faces it doesn't take the sting out of it. Niether does saying, this is not ment to offend anyone. I don't toataly belive the language thing.

I do not expect that I will agree with everyone. Including you, yet I do not think any less of you. I just don't agree. My choice of words may have been harsh, but when someone trys to sneak insults in through the back door then run away crying victim it is just as harsh, and a little more devious. You make it sound as if every time I turn around I insult someone, and that Silence was blowing kisses at everyone. Now I don't agree with name calling which is why I didn't do it.

If I were walking down the street and randomly punched someone I would expect to be punched in return. I don't know how to make this any clearer! So I will leave with, an eye for an I.

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited June 26, 2000).]

Tony H2o

06-27-00, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Oxygen:
Tony-To me the bible is no more than a literary work. I quote it when it suits me, just as I do Twain, Emerson, and any other literary source. I don't believe in the devil, either, but I quote Anton LaVey when it fits the situation.

Exactly Oxy, you use whoever, whenever and for whatever YOU want to say. So answer me this old pal, what the heck do you base your beliefs in????? I know you have some, PSI, Telekinesis, UFOlogy, Paranormal, Conspiracies????? Wow what a list and it even gets longer. So fess up dude, where's your foundation based? Bits of this? Bits of that? Rumours and innuendo? Whispers in dark alley's? All very spooky and mysterious when someone can't pin you to the one thing isn't it? Man you could almost set yourself up as an all wise, all mysterious type guru.

Tell you something for nothing Oxy, any Tom, Dick or Harry can pull that one. Any person can sway like a twig in the breeze or be a chameleon. And I'll tell you another thing for nix, it takes guts to stand firm in your "KNOWN" beliefs. Even in the face of opposition from every front. It takes guts for people to come here and tell you the truth without swaying in their conviction. The truth that doesn't sway around and pick and choose whatever suits the mood or emotion of the day.

Get a firm foundation pal before it's way to late. There is only one rock, only one, that you can cling to in the face of the coming storm.

And yes I know what your response to this will be like so how's about you save yourself some typo time and don't worry about it.

As far as being insulted, I'd rather have them hurled directly at me, as 666 and Lori do, instead of hearing them sneaking around my back. I believe 666's posts show where Silence directly insulted those of us who do not believe as he or she does. I do not fault any retaliation, especially the direct one. Eye for an eye, you know.

Talk about paranoia to the max around this joint. What the heck is wrong with everyone around here??? Sneaking behind backs?? Reading insults in where they barely if at all exist??? Punching in the face??? Please peoples lets all grow up a bit here. Crikey Joe this has got to be a joke Oxy surely your not serious? Hearing them sneaking around your back??? How can you hear them??? Remember they are all sneaking around behind your back talking about you? No wonder people around here lash out and attack, everyone's living in paranoiasville :D They're out to get you. They're out to get you. They're out to get you. They're out to get you. They're out to get you. They've come to take you away. They've come to take you away. They've come to take you away. They've come to take you away. They've come to take you away. We're watching you. We're watching you. We're watching you. We're watching you. We're watching you. We're watching you.

See, all rather dopey if you ask me, but I don't think anyone will :(

So you would rather people be up front with you? Good, so would I. So let me see, where did Silence directly insult Oxy? Oh yeah she said "OXY your a swine and a dog, because you don't believe what I believe". Let's not forget she put your name up there in black and white as well as T6's and Infinities when it was said, NOT. But lets not forget that wonderful response from T6 and Infinity to those direct insults from Silence.

SCREW OFF!!! + You Dildo! Please note the lovely capital letters and exclamation marks used to emphasise their intentions. Not to mention a reaction to being randomly punched in the face.

Well that's a nice up front response to a direct insult that never existed in the first place. Up front and outright rude, which is what is tending to happen around here and no amount of pussy footing around with analogies is going to hide what your initial intention were T6. Yes speak what's on your heart or mind, yes it's OK to get angry or frustrated about what someone is saying or even how they are saying it. But there are ways and then there are "ways" of saying things. And swearing at or calling people names is not a sign of a sound or mature mind. Geez I mean I've seen better behaviour and language from Dexter (regardless of his spelling) around this place than I have from some so called adults.

Oh but hey Christian Tony shouldn't be going around looking at the log in someone else's eye if there is a spec in his, or to not cast the first stone because Oxy might just decide that this is a great time to quote from the Bible and a person He doesn't believe in so as to put Tony back in his repentant little box. Well Oxy that was all to do with hypocrisy and nothing to do with standing up for righteousness and morality. Get an understanding before you start quoting as though your an expert. Basically all you were doing was misquoting in an effort to manipulate people, Jesus spoke about people like this and called them like their father the devil. Well now that should not offend you Oxy because you don't believe in the devil remember?

Get a real foundation and a real perspective of what's actually happening around you people. Surprise me and look at this with just some common sense even. Maybe that way new people around here who are coming to terms with the personalities and styles of debate won't continually be chased off with rudeness and insults by paranoid people.

Tony

[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited June 26, 2000).]

Tony H2o

06-27-00, 12:40 AM

Mooncat,

Friends :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: ???????

Man alive I though all you wiccan's were sneaking around behind my back casting spells, making voodo dolls, brewing up potions and lotions, invoking demons, making pacts with the devil and plotting to steal my children to sell to the gypsy folk. :D

Gawsh shucks, friends would be much nicer :)

Darn it that paranoia is cyber contagious.

Hang tight buddy, although I may sound a bit gruff I still luvs ya all with His eternal love.

Allcare to all.

Tony H2o

[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited June 26, 2000).]

Searcher

06-27-00, 01:18 AM

Wow! All I did was go to the dentist for an hour and a half, and looky what happened here! :eek:

Mind if I share one of my favorite songs with you all? Check out the lyrics (unfortunately I couldn't find where the music itself could be played or downloaded - but the lyrics by themselves are great):

http://www.generationterrorists.com/articles/the_heart_of_the_matter.html

Enjoy! :)

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Infinity

06-27-00, 06:05 AM

I've heard that song before on the radio.

MoonCat

06-27-00, 11:27 AM

Tony,

MoonCat

06-27-00, 11:40 AM

Tony,

"Man alive I though all you wiccan's were sneaking around behind my back casting spells, making voodo dolls, brewing up potions and lotions, invoking demons, making pacts with the devil and plotting to steal my children to sell to the gypsy folk."

Tha's okay Tony, I thought all the Christians were sneaking around behind my back casting prayers, slipping bibles in hotels, waving incense about, making pacts with a strange God and using Social Services to steal my children to sell them to other Christian folk. :D (Sorry Tony, couldn't resist. Be assured though, my tounge is in my cheek.)

You didn't say much about my post though, do you think I had some valid points there or not? I find myself actually caring what you think, whaddaya know? :)

On a side note, speaking of bibles in hotels - I was staying in a hotel last week and of course next to the phone book in the nightstand is ye olde bible. So I picked it up and started leafing through it, just to see what I would flip to. Flipped it right to some section about how when you sacrifice a fowl to God, you are supposed to drain the blood onto the ground or somesuch. Got me to laughing, sounded so much like primitive paganism it almost hurt. I hadn't really realized the OT was so....barbaric...I guess is the word.

I was severely tempted to nick the book from the hotel, but I figured that HAD to be bad karma somehow, even though I bet the hotel has cases of those things in a storeroom somewhere. I'll just go to an airport to pick one up instead I guess, there are usually 7 or 8 people handing out religious writings at any given moment. (I guess on the theory that if you're in an airport you are almost definitely either lost and looking for any kind of guidance, or bored out of your mind and willing to read ANYTHING) :)

Searcher,

Good song! Didn't recognize it at first, but once I got to the chorus the tune came right to mind. "...forgiveness, forgiveness..." (wandering off to do some work for a change, humming Don Henley...) B.T.W. - like your new autosig!

Have a good one, all. :D

Tiassa

06-27-00, 02:47 PM

Moon--

The hotel accepts money for those Bibles to be there. I consider them complimentary, though I rarely (if ever) steal towels.

In the 1980's, the Gideons paid $3.00 per Bible for the rights to exclusive nightstand advertising rights. This little factoid, however, I pulled from L.M. Boyd when I was about 15. I always wondered, though, if placing such horrible translations of the Bible in hotels (GNB, &c.) actually does a disservice to the Christian potential.

That's my two cents, and, yes, I think it's cheap and worthless enough to expect change. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

MoonCat

06-27-00, 03:28 PM

Tiassa,

Really!!?? They PAY hotels to have those there? Mygosh, if I would have known that I would have almost certainally nicked it. Oh well, I imagine there are probably better versions to be had than the freebie hotel fodder. "you get what you pay for", after all. :)

Seems strange paying $3 per bible to put them in hotels, I mean, how much money does that add up to? How many meals for the homeless could that have been? Sad, seems to be a big problem with priorities, if y'ask me.

Tiassa

06-27-00, 03:37 PM

Moon--

Would it sound smug if I said, "Exactly"? ;)

That's what I liked about the Waikiki Hilton: it also had a Buddhist text in the nightstand.

To the other, one must wonder how many desperate, drugged out prostitutes have saved their own lives by that book. But if I say that, I'm left how many prostitutes would be in such dire straits if that book's society hadn't demonized prostitutes, but here I find myself opening Pandora's Magic Box ($20 a peek, $60 an hour, and $200 if I want to spend the night delving through her treasures; sorry, it's a horrible joke ...), so I'll hush now. :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

MoonCat

06-27-00, 04:47 PM

Tiassa,

Now a buddhist text, that's something I'd read!

I don't really object to the bible being there, I imagine to some it's a welcome "friend" in what could be a strange situation. I just think it's rather ridiculous they actualy pay (or bribe?) hotels to place them there when that money could be used for such better things. I doubt you'll ever see a pagan group shelling out $3 a pop to place a Book of Shadows in hotels everywhere. What a waste of money!

Tiassa

06-27-00, 05:29 PM

Moon--

In the end, I agree with you. But, just as it's easier to write a check--or, in my case, accede to the notion that my company should deduct my paycheck for charity--is much easier than working with a soup line or teaching people to read, so is it easier to spend your money placing Bibles and hoping for the best.

Personally, I don't think of it as cowardly in any regard similar to that I give the idiots who go around sticking Chick comics in phone booths or hiding hellfire-and-damnation terror-pamphlets in retail displays. But I do wonder what the Gideons (and other Bible-placement organizations) expect to accomplish. (In my youth, I once wondered what anyone expected to accomplish; from an allied force--e.g. the "Christians", quotes to denote an archaic assignation of traits I would match to the word--I heard about violence in music, TV, and video games. Then, bang! I'm on a family vacation getting in-depth lesson in how to slaughter animals for God.

(I would like to mention, for irony, that I had been superstitiously and falsely accused of participating in the slaughter of six horses in the farthest corner of the county from where I lived only months before reading about the scapegoat while in a hotel in Hawaii. It was hard for me to explain to my folks why I was laughing so hard. I kept trying to explain, "Because they kill the animals!" but my parents needed a better frame of reference.) ;)

Thanx much, Moon ... I wish I had better stuff to offer for this debate. But you made me smile BIG when you brought up motels. See? :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa

06-27-00, 05:33 PM

Please accept that this post has been edited into nonexistence by the fact that I'm an idiot.

:D

--Tiassa :cool:

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited June 27, 2000).]

666

06-27-00, 06:10 PM

Tony,

I only have a few things to say this time.

If you don't want to be hit with a rock don't start a rock fight.

You apear to be way to emotional about this to see anthing other then what you want to see, but if you are looking for an apology your not going to get one from me. My above statement about a rock fight should show you how I feel and I stand by it to the end.

Tony H2o

06-27-00, 11:47 PM

T6

Cool, why don't we paddel over into calmer waters. Its probably time for "Peace be still."

Allcare

Tony

Tony H2o

06-28-00, 02:47 AM

Tony

Man alive I though all you wiccan's were sneaking around behind my back casting spells, making voodo dolls, brewing up potions and lotions, invoking demons, making pacts with the devil and plotting to steal my children to sell to the gypsy folk."

Mooncat

Tha's okay Tony, I thought all the Christians were sneaking around behind my back casting prayers, slipping bibles in hotels, waving incense about, making pacts with a strange God and using Social Services to steal my children to sell them to other Christian folk. (Sorry Tony, couldn't resist. Be assured though, my tongue is in my cheek.)

mmmmphhh, whhhaaaba youuuub knooooowwwb. I caaammmmb stuuull speazkkk wiiiid muuuy tuuuunge unnn muuuy ceheeek toooob :D

Your a riot girl!!

Dang those mixed up crazy views we have of ourselves let alone others and God.

You didn't say much about my post though, do you think I had some valid points there or not? I find myself actually caring what you think, whaddaya know?

Honestly? You really want to know?

It blew me away, seriously, it stunned me. I wish that I had kept my cool as well as you did considering you considered her post (or part thereof) an insult. Personally I think the insult was not intended but I can see how you took it that way, this is a little different in my opinion (sometimes wrong :) ) than being out right rude to a person.

If Silence insulted you I know she did not mean to, she can actually now see how some of her words may have come across that way. But her main intention was to encourage people to listen and understand, I guess this is why I became so hot under the collar about it. As you know that is my hearts cry also for people here, that you could all hear and understand just who God truly is, what He's actually like, what He has done. Its not easy because it does take effort and it goes beyond the superficial that we so often see. It takes a depth of understanding that eludes most of today's people, no offence intended to anyone by that statement because I'm in the same boat. We are just not taught to consider things properly anymore, we are driven to selfishness by the type of society we have created. All way to Barbie dolly for me, we all gotta have the latest and greatest with the matching Ken and we don't care who or what we trample over to get it. Sigh.

Don't ya just sometimes want to scream "Stop the planet I want to get off". Yet there is also a beautiful side to us that offers a glimpse of hope, that shows and reflects that which we were originally created to fulfil, a beautiful side that inspires the heart and brings joy to the soul, a beautiful side that still makes God smile upon us with His infinite grace.

But I've side tracked again, your reply showed me a maturity and wisdom that inspires. It showed me perseverance regardless of adversity, instead of reacting and insulting you sought clarification. Something we can all learn from, well done buddy.

On a side note, speaking of bibles in hotels - I was staying in a hotel last week and of course next to the phone book in the nightstand is ye olde bible. So I picked it up and started leafing through it, just to see what I would flip to. Flipped it right to some section about how when you sacrifice a fowl to God, you are supposed to drain the blood onto the ground or somesuch. Got me to laughing, sounded so much like primitive paganism it almost hurt. I hadn't really realized the OT was so....barbaric...I guess is the word.

Deuteronomy 15:
19 All the firstling males that come of thy herd and of thy flock thou shalt sanctify unto the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work with the firstling of thy bullock, nor shear the firstling of thy sheep.
20 Thou shalt eat it before the LORD thy God year by year in the place which the LORD shall choose, thou and thy household.
21 And if there be any blemish therein, as if it be lame, or blind, or have any ill blemish, thou shalt not sacrifice it unto the LORD thy God.
22 Thou shalt eat it within thy gates: the unclean and the clean person shall eat it alike, as the roebuck, and as the hart.
23 Only thou shalt not eat the blood thereof; thou shalt pour it upon the ground as water.

Genesis 1:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Revelation 7:
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

From the dust we were fashioned and life was whispered into us.

The life being the very blood that pulses and courses through our veins.

The blood being the very thing that returns to the dust.

Thus the importance of the blood being spilled, just as Christ's blood was spilled for us as a fulfilment of its very importance.
For in the blood we find life.

Barbaric is only the tip of the iceberg, what played out in the physical was essentially a reflection of what was happening in the spiritual. The eternal plan of salvation was being paved and spelled out, the brutal and barbaric death that would befall an innocent man was being played out, and the concept of how precious His blood is was being laid down. The innocent and pure dove being an example of Him and His blood shed. Yes it may appear brutal and barbaric, (I have trouble killing a sick chook) but the blood being shed was showing the price that was required to pay the debt of sin. Life was the payment, blood was the symbol of that life. Without the final sacrifice offering of Christ's blood, Christ the pure and holy one as our covering then the fee that needs paying will fall on us.

Why do we not understand the simplicity and finality of all He has done?

I was severely tempted to nick the book from the hotel, but I figured that HAD to be bad karma somehow,

You should have nicked it :D

That's why they put them there, honest............................................ .....................well maybe not.

(I guess on the theory that if you're in an airport you are almost definitely either lost and looking for any kind of guidance, or bored out of your mind and willing to read ANYTHING)

Somehow I don't think boredom was your motivation for reading the one in the hotel though.

Do you ever wonder what might be? Do you ever think "What the heck makes them Christians tick?" "Who is this God that these nutcases say they know and love"?

He's only a foreign God if we want Him to be Mooncat, if I could only show you how personal and caring and close and loving and................I don't know the words to explain all He is and can be to you, but if I could show you beyond words then I would.

I know from what you said above that it can appear barbaric and brutal and horrid, but without the understanding of what was happening in the spiritual realm, of what was being laid down, established and why. Without this knowledge or without this understanding it will always look that way. And no amount of discussion, debate, whatever will make you to know, only the Holy Spirit can show us, only Jesus can renew our hearts and change our minds to see it in another light.

Don't be afraid to ask Him, don't be afraid to speak to Him, He's a great listener and not only that He sets things in motion to actually show you who He is.

Allcare friend

Tony H2o

Oxygen

06-28-00, 03:30 AM

Tony, what, praytell WILL my response be?

I will tell you what I believe in, if you insist. You ask that I believe in one thing, or that I must be pinned to one thing. Maybe that one thing is a form of everything. I do not believe in god as an omnipowerful being borne of an outside energy. I believe in "god" as a psychological representation of our personal highest standards. I believe that all things have an answer, the belief of which manifests itself in my interest in the paranormal (paranoia isn't my strong suit, I'll explain the "sneaking around behind my back" thing momentarily). I like to study unanswered questions. I have my personal beliefs in the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence, and this belief is no more or less laughable than a belief in a god. There is practically no tangible evidence for either. I am no cold scientist seeking to dissect and categorize everything that comes my way. I am quite capable of dreaming an artist's dreams, and accepting some things based on nothing more than faith. Where we differ on faith is how we use it. It appears that to most people, faith is an end. To me, it's a means to an end. Some things I accept on faith until I find tangible reason to maintain that faith or else to outgrow it if it's proven wrong. I have read the bible and have come to understand this about it; like anything else in our lives, it is what we make of it. If you make a guidepost for your life out of it, that's your prerogative. You know my opinion on the matter. I believe that if you're going to jump into the mosh pit, expect to get slammed.

Silence did not call me names individually, but this person did aim the insults at a group of individuals. How would you feel if I said, "People who cling to ancient mystic religions such as Christianity are weak-willed and lack the strength to face reality"? I am assuming by the evidence that you are Christian, and you can plainly read that you would have been included in that group. Of course, you would rise to the challenge. I would expect no less. However, if I am going to be insulting, I would not be so small-minded as to generalize that everybody who has a religion can't face reality, or that they are weak-willed fools. Joan of Arc was certainly not a weak-willed fool.

The references to swine, fools, and dogs that came from direct passages from the bible didn't offend me. They were merely quotes, and Silence could hardly be faulted for accurately quoting his or her source. It was when such words came from his or her own keyboard that they became arrogant and insulting. The fact that they came across as "under the breath" made them all the more so, and is what I meant by "behind my back". If this person has a problem with my belief system, then such matters should be addressed directly, not from atop a high-horse.

I do not present myself as an all-wise psychic guru (or whatever phrase it was you used). I try to present my viewpoint in a clear manner (not always with success), and I do my best to not fly off the handle (homosexual horse post notwithstanding :D). I try to present myself as, at the very least, civilized. I have been unintentionally condescending on ocassion, and have apologized to the offended parties when it was pointed out, but if you find my literary style as affectatious, I should explain it is because I have read a lot of Victorian literature and it has colored my approach to the art of writing. (You should see my reports at work...)

Do you have any further questions? (I don't know if you were around to read the homosexual horse post. It wasn't intended as a serious solution to sex offenders, but it drew fire. Yipe yipe yipe...)