Is it wrong to want to keep others from another culture from coming to live in your country?

No, as long as you never do that to others too by invading, meddling etc etc. But you also don't let them in, let them make a life for themselves and their children and then kick them out.

Is it wrong to want to keep others from another culture from coming to live in your country?

No, Native Americans would have been wise to keep Europeans from gaining a foothold. Especially once their saw that the values of the intruders included dishonesty, imperialism, genocide, disrespect for the gods of other cultures, environmental destruction, etc. Unfortunately the Natives had a kind of multicultural outlook on the new arrivals, often helping them adapt to the new landscape and continuing to try through rational discussion and contract based relations to restrict some of the more pernicious aspects of the Europeans. But some values cannot be respected as the Natives rapidly found out.

Is it wrong to want to keep others from another culture from coming to live in your country?

If those people that were coming weren't bigots I'd say sure, let them come, as long as they can find work and can keep themselves afloat monetarily wise.

If those people that were coming weren't bigots I'd say sure, let them come, as long as they can find work and can keep themselves afloat monetarily wise.

That's a good way to put it. If the Europeans hadn't been bigots - racists, for example - and could keep themselves afloat without lying, killing, stealing and destroying, it might have worked out and an interesting cultural exchange would have been had by all.

How can they keep themselves afloat without competing for your job?

So there you have it, weed out all those bigots and poor people and WA -LA, instant harnony.

Is it wrong to want to keep others from another culture from coming to live in your country?

It's wrong to think of a country as yours, since it is after all, an artificial concept. It's also wrong to think culture is something to be treasured and defended.

I'm not taking a position on this. I am only asking a question. Please don't imply you know my position when you don't.

Sure, it's a valid question. Defending your culture has been a reason for war throughout history.

But defenders of culture have also been labeled as bigots and racists.

I personally think it's rather silly to identify with a particular culture. We are all humans, aren't we?

Well, we're all animals too. Why don't you associate yourself with baboons or frogs?

I do. I'm an aspect of the whole biosphere.

Well, we're all animals too. Why don't you associate yourself with baboons or frogs?


Are you saying other races but your own are not human?

Ahh..it's coming out now and so typically too. Baboon or frogs, eh? Tell me of a race that hasn't acted like an animal or committed degenerate acts?

Come on peta9, Why? already said he was just posing the question, not calling other races animals.

But defenders of culture have also been labeled as bigots and racists.

'Defenders of culture' is a phrase generally used by people who want other people to stop having their culture. I can't see where people in Western nations are right now pressed to give up their cultures.

Is it wrong to want to keep others from another culture from coming to live in your country?The modernist answer is "yes".

I come from Sweden so we accept any culture, since we believe that it makes us more "profound".

I believe in God, and so we should not degrade strangers (since we were foreigners in Egypt).

Any person should see what they can find promising or good in different cultures. However individually we that are christians should adhere to our culture and do the best to love the people that we have around us.

Is it wrong to want to keep others from another culture from coming to live in your country?

Native Americans would probably think not. And they'd be right, too.

The modernist answer is "yes".

I come from Sweden so we accept any culture, since we believe that it makes us more "profound".

I believe in God, and so we should not degrade strangers (since we were foreigners in Egypt).

Any person should see what they can find promising or good in different cultures. However individually we that are christians should adhere to our culture and do the best to love the people that we have around us.

What if their reaction to being in the country isn't "promising or good", like the angry no-go areas ghettos in Malmo?

Native Americans would probably think not. And they'd be right, too.

See my posts above.

What if their reaction to being in the country isn't "promising or good", like the angry no-go areas ghettos in Malmo?

You are referring to a very complicated situation that the Swedes bear a lot of responsibility for, despite good intentions. It is not an easy country to integrate into or an easy job market to break into.

You are referring to a very complicated situation that the Swedes bear a lot of responsibility for, despite good intentions. It is not an easy country to integrate into or an easy job market to break into.

Certainly not, with the highest social services benefits payouts in the Western world, complete federal health care and an immigrant-friendly population. Then again, some people prefer their own systems to that of infidels - I mean, guests - no matter where they are. Were the Native Americans right to be worried? Of course.

Certainly not, with the highest social services benefits payouts in the Western world, complete federal health care and an immigrant-friendly population. Then again, some people prefer their own systems to that of infidels - I mean, guests - no matter where they are. Were the Native Americans right to be worried? Of course.

Not quite sure what your points are?
My point by raising Native Americans was to introduce a little humility in a discussion where Euro-Americans see the 'intruders' as barbarians without ever acknowledging their own barabaric habits.

1) Sweden has high social services payouts. Yes. But it is extremely hard to break into the job market. this means that immigrants end up without jobs, endlessly getting educations they cannot use to maintain their benefits with little hope for future work. The fact that immigrants are lumped together in ghettos is partly their own fault - or human nature, the Swedes tend to cluster on the South coast of Spain when they retire - but it also the fault of well documented racist real estate brokering.
2) Describing the population as immigrant friendly is ignorant. Period. You have clearly never lived there. Most of those who have a benevolent attitude will 1) still hire a Swede before an equally or more qualified applicant 2) not socialize with immigrants 3) act very awkwardly and unintentionally cold around immigrants in ways that differ greatly from, say, the white inhabitants of both coasts of the US.

Immigrants are marginalized in a variety of ways. Their home educational systems and degrees are treated with a disdain that would shock Americans, for example. And those Americans would find themelves shocked to find the Swedes are telling them to back to school - not for Swedish - but, for example to repeat an entire Masters program and portions of their B.S. because the Swedes think their programs are better.

When immigrants change their names to swedish sounding ones, they at least get to first interviews.

The immigrants bear responsibility also. And much of the problem is related to the naivte of the Swedes and their cross cultural ignorance. They love to learn about other cultures like gourmands, but to have a complicated society has been a shock to them. Also they opened their doors generously to refugess from the Balkans and other war torn areas without considering the needs and problems that go along with this. There are other countries, Canada, for example that are vastly superior when it comes to integration.

You want to blame the immigrants. Your position needs a lot of balance.

Not quite sure what your points are?
My point by raising Native Americans was to introduce a little humility in a discussion where Euro-Americans see the 'intruders' as barbarians without ever acknowledging their own barabaric habits.

Well, that's interesting. Here's the thing: if we take even the extreme route of accusing Native Americans of being barbaric at times, and in their own way - and, at times, and in their own way, they were - then the issue of immigration becomes a morally neutral question, since both sides are eminently human and eminently bad and good.

In that scenario - extreme as it is, even - the Native Americans had and have every right to oppose or even fight back against the immigrants which, as history witnesses, stole their land and forced them onto miserable reservations. Genocide. Ergo, it is similarly morality-neutral to oppose immigration in the context of European immigration.

I actually know a number of Swedes, so my comment is not ignorant. I do not and have not seen them as a racist people, although it is obvious racism exists everywhere - even in the home country of the little republic of Malmo, Pakistan.

The immigrants bear responsibility also. And much of the problem is related to the naivte of the Swedes and their cross cultural ignorance. They love to learn about other cultures like gourmands, but to have a complicated society has been a shock to them.

As has the hatred their largesse has been received with, I'm sure.

You want to blame the immigrants. Your position needs a lot of balance.

Not at all. As an immigrant in my present host country, I see any number of jobs that are advertised as "US citizens only". I accept this without question - it is implicit in the importation of people that the guest country has the discretion of allocating its own workforce. If that's unacceptable, there are planes leaving Philadelphia - and Malmo - every day.

I actually know a number of Swedes, so my comment is not ignorant. I do not and have not seen them as a racist people, although it is obvious racism exists everywhere - even in the home country of the little republic of Malmo, Pakistan.

As has the hatred their largesse has been received with, I'm sure.

Not at all. As an immigrant in my present host country, I see any number of jobs that are advertised as "US citizens only". I accept this without question - it is implicit in the importation of people that the guest country has the discretion of allocating its own workforce. If that's unacceptable, there are planes leaving Philadelphia - and Malmo - every day.

Bigotry and smugness and presumptions of racial or cultural superiority are the problems. Qualities exhibited vastly more by the Europeans that the Natives.

Your comment on 'their home country - Pakistan' shows just how little you know about the demographics of Malmo. Perhaps you know the wrong Swedes or they have never been to Malmo or you didn't listen to them or they are racists who might as well have said javla blattar to you. I can't give you the proper vowels with this keyboard but they'll figure it out. You can ask them what that word means.

And thanks for coming out in your last paragraph. It's not only unnacceptable, it's illegal, in both cities. Residence/work permits give the legal right to work.

It is precisely the same personalities that are most upset about immigrants who most believed in manifest destiny and wiping out the barbarians. Their understanding only relates to events safely far off in time. It's very similar to all the fundamentalist Christians who know damn well deep in their hearts that they would kill an iconoclast who hung out with prostitutes if he had his second coming today.

Is it wrong to want to keep others from another culture from coming to live in your country?Japan seems pretty good at keeping Japan Japanese and yet evolving and accepting new ideas. One way they do this is using a separate system of writing for foreign words, and hence, concepts.

Japan seems pretty good at keeping Japan Japanese and yet evolving and accepting new ideas. One way they do this is using a separate system of writing for foreign words, and hence, concepts.

Japan is not going to be japan for much longer either. They are letting in a lot of immigrants even from africa and thier "japanese" culture is not going to last. They are following the "multicultural" path. But the world does not stay the same anyways and neither do cultures.

Bigotry and smugness and presumptions of racial or cultural superiority are the problems. Qualities exhibited vastly more by the Europeans that the Natives.

And more by Swedes than immigrants? Are you sure?

Your comment on 'their home country - Pakistan' shows just how little you know about the demographics of Malmo. Perhaps you know the wrong Swedes or they have never been to Malmo or you didn't listen to them or they are racists who might as well have said javla blattar to you. I can't give you the proper vowels with this keyboard but they'll figure it out. You can ask them what that word means.

I regret to say that it doesn't much matter the exact point of origin when the newcomers are intolerant of the natives - those being Swedes. Or was European intolerance of Native Americans really acceptable after all?

And thanks for coming out in your last paragraph. It's not only unnacceptable, it's illegal, in both cities. Residence/work permits give the legal right to work.

"Coming out"?

Anyway: wrong. In my field, preference is given to nationals all the time. Sorry. Not much I can do to change that.

It is precisely the same personalities that are most upset about immigrants who most believed in manifest destiny and wiping out the barbarians.

Is it? What about the personalities of some newcomers who regard Swedish society with distain? Should they be treated with distaff ignorance? They may well not return it, you realize.

You are not alone boo hoo, other people are ambivalent about multiculturalism too and it's negatives spread by the west.

I don't like westerners. They are like bratty bastards who are animals and they call asians 'pigs'? They screw barnyard animals and african slaves and their mutts think they are superior when thier low iq, unsophisticated, thumping animalistic culture is appealing to the lowest common denominator in a human being. They are the most stupid people and so undeserving of their pathetic ego. Rap spreading, monkey buttshaking, lard-eating mutherfukers spreading $hit and an inferior culture and whore multculturalism/miscegenation bangfest. Disgusting.

I hate western people.

You are not alone boo hoo, other people are ambivalent about multiculturalism too and it's negatives spread by the west.

I don't like westerners. They are like bratty bastards who are animals and they call asians 'pigs'? They screw barnyard animals and african slaves and their mutts think they are superior when thier low iq, unsophisticated, thumping animalistic culture is appealing to the lowest common denominator in a human being. They are the most stupid people and so undeserving of their pathetic ego. Rap spreading, monkey buttshaking, lard-eating mutherfukers spreading $hit and an inferior culture and whore multculturalism/miscegenation bangfest. Disgusting.

I hate western people.

You'll have to admit, Orientals as a group are pretty squared away.

If you're against uncontrolled immigration, you're a racist.

Well, its a question of do you want to shut yourself of to that culture?
Now many of you will say that culture and race and country aren't the same thing, but think about it , say if you abhore and shut off xyz culture, you will have to shut off trade, talks, bi lateral relations with xyz country and representitivies. you cant take the trade and money of a culture or a country without accepting a part of it in your fold.

[QUOTE]And more by Swedes than immigrants? Are you sure?
I can assume you accept my point in relation to Native Americans and Europeans colonists. Let me know and then I'll move on to the Sweden situation.


I regret to say that it doesn't much matter the exact point of origin when the newcomers are intolerant of the natives - those being Swedes. Or was European intolerance of Native Americans really acceptable after all?
You are quite wrong about the immigrants in Sweden being more intolerant of the natives. I am speaking from long term interactions with both groups there. Further the resources - jobs, housing, etc. - are in the hands of the Swedes and their intolerance - whatever the root - has vastly more serious consequences than the intolerance of the immigrants. We were talking about the formation of ghettos. This is far more the responsibility of the Swedes than the immigrants, though the latter have played their role.


Is it? What about the personalities of some newcomers who regard Swedish society with distain? Should they be treated with distaff ignorance? They may well not return it, you realize.
1) you are assuming the immigrant disdain was fixed from the beginning and not a response to being shut out of society.
2) sure, there are assholes in any group. The immigrants who regard Swedish society with disdain, for the most part, sit around in their apartments in dreary neighborhoods gnashing their teeth. The Swedes who regard the immigrants with disdain keep them out of jobs and better housing and integration and assimilation. The Swedes react to foreign sounding names with fear. And this has been consistant through time. As one example.
3) 'distaff ignorance' went right over my head despite a visit to a dictionary.

Another point is that the Swedes do not a have a birthrate that supports their pension system and a variety of other infrastructures. THEY NEED TO HAVE IMMIGRANTS or the system will collapse. If you knew the immigrants directly, rather than getting your info from Fox news or racist Swedes, you would know that the vast majority, especially the men 1) really want to work 2) are willing to work in jobs well below their educational and professional status - you'd be amazed how many cab drivers have advanced degrees from other countries 4) I have never met a single male immigrant who was unemployed and not upset about it. They accept that their home country degrees must be taken over. They study Swedish and English - you have to be bilingual fluent to even get a high school diploma in Sweden, even if you speak three or four languages you have to learn English in addition to Swedish - come out with Swedish college degrees and their names keep them out of interviews. Many of the women want to be homemakers, but many do enter both college and the workforce. If they are single, they want work as much as the men.

I had many arguments about culture, politics, religion with immigrants. I do not think their ideas of culture are necessarily right or even better than the Swedes. I am not naive about some of the downside of certain cultural viruses. But we are talking about a practical issue: ghettoization. And not surprisingly those with more power are more causal when it comes to this problem. And ghettoization leads to more and more polarization. I would like to add that I could easily pass for Swedish and generally do until my accent is heard. Nevertheless I have walked through the worst ghettos in Sweden, especially in Malmo, and not only was I not hassled, nobody seemed to notice me. That would not be my experience in American severely poor neighborhoods. I also know this from experience. People like to use Malmo, especially since that ludicrous piece of shit 'reporting' Fox News did, as an example of the failures of immigration and the problems with Muslims. That program was hated by immigrants and most Swedes. What really frightens people like those behind that report is what would happen if immigration went well. They also want to distract us from other vastly more important problems. Whenever I heard Swedes complain about the immigrant threat to their culture I asked them to tell me how SWEDISH culture and society had changed in the last 15 years. All the major changes were due to economic globalization, adoption of american corporate models, inclusion in the EU, take overs of Swedish companies by foreign corporations, and the incursion of music, films, and TV, primarily from the USA. The largest changes in Sweden culturally and societally are towards to USA, no matter how many felafel stands go up. Americans don't realize they have a culture, they think they have THE answer. Swedes have fallen for this hype. And they have fallen for the hype that blames those with little power for the biggest problems.

If you're against uncontrolled immigration, you're a racist.

The USA was created by racists by your definition.

[QUOTE=GeoffP;1512152]
I can assume you accept my point in relation to Native Americans and Europeans colonists. Let me know and then I'll move on to the Sweden situation.

Well, I don't know which culture would be more accepting vis-a-vis Sweden and immigrants from southeast Asia.

You are quite wrong about the immigrants in Sweden being more intolerant of the natives. I am speaking from long term interactions with both groups there. Further the resources - jobs, housing, etc. - are in the hands of the Swedes and their intolerance - whatever the root - has vastly more serious consequences than the intolerance of the immigrants. We were talking about the formation of ghettos. This is far more the responsibility of the Swedes than the immigrants, though the latter have played their role.

Is it? Most people tend to gather in tribalist groups; it's natural behaviour, when you think about it. The suburb of Scarborough, in Ontario, Canada, for example is almost 100% Chinese; a change within the last 30 years or so. I'm not at all sure that ghettoization of immigrants is inherently the fault of the host country, or of Sweden in particular.

1) you are assuming the immigrant disdain was fixed from the beginning and not a response to being shut out of society.

In some cases, I think so, yes. There is a religious bias in some immigrants to Scandinavia against the more secular society they encounter, and some of the above consider this a weakness or moral fault.

2) sure, there are assholes in any group.

I would agree that there's a joint requirement for tolerance.

3) 'distaff ignorance' went right over my head despite a visit to a dictionary.

Sorry. I like colourful phrases.

1) if you mean the old meaning of 'ghetto' which means a single ethnic group area, then I agree. If you mean 'ghetto' as an area where a very high % of that ethnic group have unemployment problems and are vastly less likely with the same qualifications or better to get the same jobs as the majority population, that's a different story. I even made this point when I said Swedes tended to clump in Spain. The problem is when you have a marginalized ghetto with some higher than the norm angry residents. This marginalization is of course the primary responsibilityof the Swedes. And I don't want to come off as harsh at swedes. I think the bulk problem there is no their racism it's their shyness and fear of change. I would even guess that some Swedes do not hire foreigners because they are afraid the foreigners will feel out of place and the Swedes think they will handle it badly. I am quite serious here. Swedes in general would not walk up to a tourist looking scared and confused at his map because they wouldn't want to disturb his privacy. They are overly cautious. But put immigrants in such a phobic cautious, very closed social and work life and you shut them out. And the hoops they have to go through make other western bureacracies seem like walk in the park.

2) Sure, some immigrants have a bias against Sweden for being secular, just like Bill O'reilly does and all the other conservatives, neo-cons and fundamentalists, in other words everyone who supported Bush. In fact the latter groups sees Sweden as - until the last election - controlled by Satan far more than muslims. But whatever these immigrants bias against secular sweden this has not led to their unemployment, isolation, ghettoization. And I dealt with a large number of non-western immigrants while there and these groups are much more likely to view me as the source of their problems, etc. We worked together well and with mutual respect. I am quite sure some thought my beliefs were problematic, to put it mildly, but if you think this attitude would keep them from taking or applying to this or that job or education you don't know what you are talking about. They hate being on welfare, vastly more than any westerner can imagine. And that cuts across all immigrant groups: from the middle east, ex-USSR, south america, Africa, etc.
3) I think it was a meaningless phrase.

We've made our points and obviously neither has convinced the other. The fact that I have vastly more experience with the situation you wrote about does not prove I am right. But I am sure you can understand why your vastly less well informed one would annoy and seem biased by something other than the truth.

So I'm dropping my side now. Take it easy.

Swedes in general would not walk up to a tourist looking scared and confused at his map because they wouldn't want to disturb his privacy. They are overly cautious.

Yes, I believe this. When I'm hunting Swedes in the woods, I swear: one missed shot and you can't find another one for hours.

3) I think it was a meaningless phrase.

Then you didn't follow. :)

The fact that I have vastly more experience with the situation you wrote about does not prove I am right. But I am sure you can understand why your vastly less well informed one would annoy and seem biased by something other than the truth.

Or that your menagerie of apologetics smells like manure. But hey: we're all friends. Love love, hug hug. Whatever. I vomit on your arguments.

:puke: