View Full Version : Should Criminals pay higher taxes?


TimeTraveler
01-29-07, 08:39 PM
Example, if someone is convicted of selling drugs, such as marijuana, should they pay the Marijuana tax after they do their time?

Let's look into this with more detail,

DARTMOUTH — Bristol County Sheriff Thomas M. Hodgson yesterday praised Gov. Deval Patrick's proposal to charge criminals a "safety fee," saying it echoes the principle behind the $5-per-day "cost of care" fee the Dartmouth House of Correction once charged inmates.
"It's the right position," he said. "It's something that I think should have been done a long time ago, not only in Massachusetts, but across the country. ... Finally, finally we're going to hold them responsible."
On Saturday, Gov. Patrick announced that he has a plan to charge every convicted criminal an as-yet undetermined fee that would pay to hire more police.
Organizations such as the American Civil Liberties Union and Massachusetts Correctional Legal Services have criticized the plan, saying that most criminals are poor and already face court fees when convicted.
Sheriff Hodgson said he wrote a letter of congratulations to Gov. Patrick when he heard about the plan, and invited the governor to Dartmouth to tour the House of Corrections and discuss fees.
Criminals "create a tremendous burden on the taxpayers with prisons and the justice system," he said. Later, he called Gov. Patrick's detractors "the same people who are responsible for recidivism in this country."
In 2002, the sheriff began charging each inmate $5 a day for room and board. "Over a two-year period, we raised $750,000," he said. "Imagine if every prison in Massachusetts charged a similar fee."
That two-year period ended July 2004 when a Bristol Superior Court judge ruled that the $5-per-day fee, along with other charges such as $5 for non-emergency medical visits and eyeglass prescriptions, were illegal.
Nine inmates represented by Massachusetts Correctional Legal Services took the case to court. It has been referred to the state Appeals Court.
The House of Corrections has an estimated population of 1,420 and a 2007 budget of $41 million, which it needs $4.4 million more to fund.
"Had we been able to collect (the daily $5 fee), we would cut that in half," Sheriff Hodgson said, adding that he has found other ways to trim his costs, such as cutting a cup of milk a day from the prisoner menu.
"That saved us 60 grand a year" while still meeting nutritional needs, he said.
The sheriff acknowledged that his cost-of-care charge is not analogous to Gov. Patrick's idea of a one-time fee.
"In our case, we get a bit more of a rehabilitative benefit," he said.
But he said the fact that he, a Republican, and Gov. Patrick, a Democrat, both came up with the idea of charging criminals to increase accountability shows that the notion crosses party lines.
Sheriff Hodgson said one of the biggest misconceptions of the $5 fee was that inmates' families would have to pay it. He said yesterday that the fees were assessed to the inmates themselves, and their families had no obligation to pay.
Poor inmates who could not pay had a bill that grew the longer they were incarcerated. When they were released, they were told, "If you don't come back within two years, we'll tear up the bill," Sheriff Hodgson said.
As for criticism of the sheriff that many criminals are already at an economic disadvantage, he said, "I'd invite you to come here and see how many inmates are picked up by limousines when they are let out."
Some come in with thousands of dollars, legal and illegal, he said.
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/01-07/01-18-07/12local.htm

I think it's a brilliant idea. If a person is convicted of a crime, paying a fee is actually a very good way to punish them for the crime. Prison seems like a punishment but really the prison system does not work very well. Take for example a thief, that robs a bank, and makes millions, Prison is not a big deal because they'll have millions of dollars as a trade off, however if they had to pay the bank robbery tax, or the robbery tax, then when they get out, they'd be paying extra taxes for every crime they commited. More convictions = more taxes.

The result of this would be, that a rational person should come to the conclusion that crime does not pay, and that if convicted, it's going to result in your taxes being raised. I think it's actually a brilliant idea to link high taxes to criminals, think of it this way, if you've never commited a crime in your life, and you know someone has to pay the taxes to pay for the police and all the other stuff the society needs, shouldnt it be the criminals who pay these taxes?

Overall I think it is a good idea because it links the funding of the police department and crime fighting, with the activities of the criminals, so that if a city or town has a crime spike, it will also fund the police. Therefore if criminals get out of prison, they'd be paying taxes to fund the police department.

As far as tax status goes, I think it would be great if someone can get a tax deduction for having no criminal record. Imagine if you could get a 25% tax cut for having no criminal record, and another person who is a career criminal gets their taxes raised 25%?

I don't think convicted criminals will like this idea, and it does depend on how much money criminals can make when out of prison to pay these taxes or fees, and it depends on the crime, but I think different crimes should require different amounts in fees.

Oniw17
01-29-07, 10:14 PM
Most of the time no, because they've already had punishment. However, in the case of people who constantly go in and out of prison for robbing houses or whatever, I think they should pay a tax, because they are taking something away from the community. Also, do you know how hard it is already for people coming out of prison? Most of the time they have to do labor-ready work where they get paid $40-60 a day and only get to work 3 days a week. Many of them have children to support aswell, an extra tax likely won't keep them out of trouble. It would probably make them more likely to start selling drugs or robbing people again, because they'll need more money.

Prince_James
01-29-07, 10:44 PM
I prefer a system of corporal punishment for all felonies. Fines should only be rendered for misdemeanor offenses and prisons should not exist outside of short-term facillities.

TimeTraveler
01-30-07, 03:45 AM
Most of the time no, because they've already had punishment. However, in the case of people who constantly go in and out of prison for robbing houses or whatever, I think they should pay a tax, because they are taking something away from the community. Also, do you know how hard it is already for people coming out of prison? Most of the time they have to do labor-ready work where they get paid $40-60 a day and only get to work 3 days a week. Many of them have children to support aswell, an extra tax likely won't keep them out of trouble. It would probably make them more likely to start selling drugs or robbing people again, because they'll need more money.

So add it to their income tax. And allow room for negotiation of the fee. If they for example, manage to stay out of trouble, perhaps you could drop the fee, but if they get arrested again you could double the fee and force them to pay.

Ultimately though, it should cost the criminal to be a criminal, not the community.

TimeTraveler
01-30-07, 03:47 AM
I prefer a system of corporal punishment for all felonies. Fines should only be rendered for misdemeanor offenses and prisons should not exist outside of short-term facillities.

What is corporal punishment, what kind I mean? and for what sentences?
Also how do you deal with economic types of crime if you can't use fines?

098
01-31-07, 01:30 AM
I am all for that.

madanthonywayne
02-03-07, 04:46 PM
I prefer a system of corporal punishment for all felonies. Fines should only be rendered for misdemeanor offenses and prisons should not exist outside of short-term facillities.
I assume capital punishment would be included in this scheme for murder. But what would the punishment be for things such as bank robbery, grand theft auto. rape, etc under your plan?

zenbabelfish
02-03-07, 05:05 PM
No, we should pay them not to commit crime - it would be cheaper.

Baron Max
02-03-07, 07:39 PM
No, we should pay them not to commit crime - it would be cheaper.

That's sorta' what we do now .....we give out welfare checks, but they continue to commit the crimes anyway. And we still keep giving out more welfare checks.

No, Zenbabelfish, it don't work ....we know from experience! :D

Baron Max

Prince_James
02-03-07, 08:04 PM
For those interested:

My system of punishment consists of four tiers. Misdemeanor, minor, moderate, and severe.

Misdemeanors are punished with fines.

Minor crimes are punished first by 20 lashes/strokes with a scourge/cane, second 40, third to death. Minor crimes include most of the white collared crimes, unprovoked assault and battery (not brawling and such), minor theft,
small time drug crimes, perjury, et cetera.

Moderate crimes begin on at 40 lashes/strokes with a scourge/cane, second time to death. This includes heavier crimes, but not the major ones. Non-injurious arson, grand theft, larceny, et cetera.

All major crimes would be punished through lashes/strokes with a scourge/cane unto death. This includes treason, injurious arson, murder, rape, child rape/molestation, espionage, et cetera.

All long-term prisons would be abolished and only short term facillities for the holding of prisoners (who cannot pay for bail) should be established. These will be clean and relatively nice, as the majority of the prisoners will be not proven to be guilty, whereas more jail like conditions can prevail for those awaiting their punishment, which should come no more than one month after sentencing.

All felonious will be public and done completely nude.

The benefits of this system are two fold:

Economic: A cane/scourge, a strong man, and some shackles are that is needed to perform the punishment, compared to tens of thousands of dollars a year for prisoners, or even a lot of money for executions.

Social: The fear of intense, agonizing, and scarring pain wedded to public humiliation is likely to cause actual results. Singapore's extremely low recidivism rate is obviously linked with its implementation of corporal punishment. This is held tob e a superior system to Singapore by also wedding the shame of humilation and upping its severity.

zenbabelfish
02-03-07, 08:07 PM
A scheme was seriously mooted in the UK to pay several hundred pounds sterling a week - I tend to agree with you about this although on paper it looks the cheaper option.
However crime is the new rockn'roll...

Ray9
02-03-07, 09:52 PM
Our society is out of control. We can't build prisons fast enough to contain the dregs that plague us. No branch of government, state or federal is willing to appraach the problem in realistic or meaningful way. The protection of the innocent is lost to politics and corruption. Charging extra fines to career criminals is a joke. This is just another liberal idea that will cause more problems than it will solve. Does anyone seriously believe that this will deter drug dealers or aid in the fight against the use of controlled substances? Once again the state of Massachussets has provided comic relief for the nation.

James R
02-05-07, 07:52 PM
About 95% of people in prison are in for non-violent offences. Many are in for possession of drugs. Putting these people in prison is a waste of resources.

The solution is not more prisons.

zenbabelfish
02-05-07, 07:57 PM
So we can tax them instead?

Cardin
02-06-07, 03:29 PM
Most of the people who commit crimes, are already on a low-end income. Without jobs, they turn to crime for source of income (robbing banks, selling drugs) ..so instead of putting them in jail, they get an extra tax that they couldn't pay before? The whole purpose of crime was to make cash. Plus getting a job after getting felony charge is near impossible, unless it's minimum wage job at a gas station - but who can live off that, especially when they would have to pay more?

Prison = gold mine. The more inmates, the more money is made. The state already is making a killing by having inmates work in the kitchens and cleaning the roads, so that they save money by not having to hire the law abiding citizens.

zenbabelfish
02-06-07, 03:47 PM
If a person is employed instead of prison then revenue can be raised on the products they buy rather than a taxation on income.

Cardin
02-06-07, 04:53 PM
If a person is employed instead of prison then revenue can be raised on the products they buy rather than a taxation on income.

So, you're suggesting a big brother system to keep track and know who are and who aren't criminals?

zenbabelfish
02-06-07, 05:34 PM
No...not at all...what made you think that?

Lord Hillyer
02-06-07, 06:12 PM
Good idea, Prince James. But I would include eating animal products as a minor crime. If people must reckon with the equation: 'eat a steak, and twenty lashes', then humanity's trophic footprint would shrink considerably. Also, not only would the criminal justice budget drastically shrink, but so would health care costs and illness-related economic losses. We should also promote domestic agriculture. With peak oil on our doorstep, the age of the three-thousand mile Caesar salad is almost over in any event.

spidergoat
02-06-07, 06:22 PM
Criminals often do have to pay money as a consequence of their crimes. Adding an extra tax is not a good idea. What if they paid years ago and are let free? It's hard enough making a living as an ex-con.

spidergoat
02-06-07, 06:23 PM
Good idea, Prince James. But I would include eating animal products as a minor crime. If people must reckon with the equation: 'eat a steak, and twenty lashes', then humanity's trophic footprint would shrink considerably. Also, not only would the criminal justice budget drastically shrink, but so would health care costs and illness-related economic losses. We should also promote domestic agriculture. With peak oil on our doorstep, the age of the three-thousand mile Caesar salad is almost over in any event.

How about a sustainability tax? Figure the costs to humanity as a result of eating cows or driving a big truck, and add it to the price.

Lord Hillyer
02-06-07, 07:59 PM
How about a sustainability tax? Figure the costs to humanity as a result of eating cows or driving a big truck, and add it to the price.

More government revenue means nothing to a dead cow or a heart attack victim.

Cardin
02-07-07, 01:59 PM
No...not at all...what made you think that?

Well how else would the grocery store know if they were a convicted felon or not?

zenbabelfish
02-07-07, 02:10 PM
Well how else would the grocery store know if they were a convicted felon or not?

They would pay the same taxes on products as everyone else.

phonetic
02-07-07, 04:16 PM
With peak oil on our doorstep, the age of the three-thousand mile Caesar salad is almost over in any event.

Heh, I like that quote.

Cardin
02-07-07, 05:51 PM
I guess i misunderstood this:

If a person is employed instead of prison then revenue can be raised on the products they buy rather than a taxation on income.

Sorry, what'd you mean?:confused:

zenbabelfish
02-07-07, 06:09 PM
Hi Cardin -sorry bit oblique: Quick summary - only generally applicable in cases where public (and individual) not at risk.

Keeping an individual in prison costs about 45 US$ a day (http://www.peer.state.ms.us/496.html) and some of this can be offset against prison labour.
If an offender were to work, earn and spend in the usual manner then they would make a direct contribution to the economy through the generation of income, paying national/local statuatory taxes, and taxes on products they buy (which in turn provides jobs for others).
So I guess my point is that if suitable prisoners are in a positive feedback-loop within the economy - this is preferrable to being inside a negative economic feedback-loop within the prison system.

Just throwing a few ideas in the air really...