First off, this is John L Armstrong, author of God v. the Bible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3PXS6dfxht4

Once again shifting attention to Christianity's favorite obsession, the Judeo-Christian/Islamic taboo that says that love is evil when the body parts are similar.

It sounds silly when I put it that way, doesn't it? But that is what the taboo says, expressed in very plain language.

And I'd like to ask Christians that, whenever I hear them wailing about the sin of homosexuality or how gay marriage is a big threat to societal values and so forth, why does love become evil when the body parts are similar?

Because the Word of God says so.



Now, I realize that there are some liberal Christian's out there who will try to say "Well, that's not really what the bible says.".

No! I'm sorry. There really is no question about this.

That’s right, I know it and you know it. It is plain as day in the scriptures. But they cannot accept the scriptures while still wanting the eternal benefits of claiming to follow the will of God. So they think they can conform the scriptures to the desires of the world. Their thinking is wrong.


Leviticus 19:22 says "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, it is an abomination",

Clear as day isn't it.

Leviticus 20:13 goes on to say that "If a man also lie with mankind as with woman, both of them have commited a violation. They shall surely be put to death, their blood is upon them". It says to go out and kill the gays.

Yep the penalty for sin is death.

And in Romans 1:26 Paul extends the taboo to lesbians. He says "For this cause, God gave them up unto vile affections, for even thier woman did change the natural use into that which is against nature.".

Yes well studied I could not have done better in gathering and interpreting the scriptures up to this point, that you have. Well done.

So, I'm sorry. I hate to admit it, but at this particular point, Fred Phelps is right and the bible God, Yahweh, really does hate gays.

No. God loves gays, He declares homosexual sex to be an abomination. You and Fred are both wrong.



But back to the topic of why love becomes evil when the body parts are similar.

At this point some conservative Christian's will say "Well, you're over simplifying things. Its really much more complicated than that.".

No! I don't see any reason to think whatsoever that love becomes any different if its for the same gender or the opppsite gender. Anyone with a mature concept of love understands that what makes marriage sacred are such things as devotion, fidelity, commitment, and sharing the journey of life with another human being. These are things that have nothing to do with gender. Anyone with a mature concept of love knows that its not about the physical mechanics of sex.

But these scriptures are clearly about the mechanics of sexual intercourse.


And yet you hear conservative Christians going on and on as if that were the number one concideration, that that's basically what makes marriage sacred to them. And the idea that any couple should be allowed to get married if they don't meet the "body part requirement" is just totally unthinkable to them. That shows just how immature thier concept of love and marriage really is.

And other's will go on to say "Well, it's just not natural.".

Actually there's been plenty of research that shows to the contrary. Ever since the days of Aristotle, biologists working independently of eachother have noticed that homosexuality, infact, does exist in the animal kingdom. It does exist in nature. It is not, as Paul said, "unnatural".

So you disagree with the scriptures. That’s your privilege, but the scriptures are right and i believe the Word of God will stand it does not matter a jot if 99.99999% of the worlds population disagree with it.




With all of that swept away, we see that its really all about bigotry. You want to feel superior to that person over there because that person over there is different from you. That's what this is really all about.

For some it may be bigotry. But for true followers of God it is about believing in His Word and trusting in His judgements on the matter. I don't spend my days worrying about gay marriage and the laws of this world powers. They can make whatever laws and peruse any policies regarding this issue they please to, But in the end all the politics and power plays are all vanity. Like people building a tower on the top of a volcano and steadfastly refusing to believe it will become active, as if the strength of their will power will keep the mountain in check. All their efforts are doomed in the long run to be obliterated.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

It is plain as day in the scriptures. But they cannot accept the scriptures while still wanting the eternal benefits of claiming to follow the will of God. So they think they can conform the scriptures to the desires of the world. Their thinking is wrong.


The very same scripture says you can't eat shellfish. The same scripture says you can't wear clothes of two different materials.

You are as guilty as those you are currently whining about. The word of god will stand even if you and 99.999999% of the worlds population disagree with it.

:bugeye:

Such a hypocrite.

I bring out this article from time to time because, well, the discussion about God and hatred and homosexuality tends to keep coming 'round this mark:

McKinley, Brian E. "When Christ was Gay". See http://www.elroy.net/ehr/gay.html

It's a fairly simple argument:

The term "mockery" doesn't begin to describe the trashing these so-called Christians are doing to God's name. The Religious Right should get down on their knees and beg the forgiveness of every homosexual man or woman they have publicly condemned on their way to the bank. They should beg God's forgiveness for being just like the wicked servant in Christ's story, forgiven of their own sinful lifestyles but unwilling to forgive the lifestyles of their fellow human beings. And then they should stop their self-righteous rhetoric and remember that for a moment in their savior's life, as he hung on a cross for everyone's sin, that Christ was gay.

(McKinley (http://www.elroy.net/ehr/gay.html))

Finally, one Christian actually, honestly expressed to me what this issue was really all about. He said to me "I just don't like the idea that two fags can have a relationship equal to the one that I have with my wife.".

THANK YOU! I appreciate that kind of honesty. That pure, unadulterated expression of bigotry without any garbage pretext, that somehow its all about family values or how its about protecting the sacred institution of marriage or any of that garbage.


I dont know what to tell you, most of your stories sound made up anyway. But that person you supposedly spoke to could have been from any background.

With all of that swept away, we see that its really all about bigotry. ... That's what this is really all about.

Dont be so hard on yourself.

I dont know what to tell you, most of your stories sound made up anyway. But that person you supposedly spoke to could have been from any background.



Dont be so hard on yourself.

John, you really shouldn't be so rude. I was actually starting to like you a bit. BTW, I should have said it in the beginning, but this is a quote from John L Armstrong.

There, I even went back and fixed it just for you John.

John, you really shouldn't be so rude. I was actually starting to like you a bit. BTW, I should have said it in the beginning, but this is a quote from John L Armstrong.

How was that rude? I guess everyone has their cross to bear.

How do you know your right? Things can be\get worse you know.

MZ3Boy84, please shorten the quote, provide a link or better citation (perhaps tell us who John L Armstrong is and why an appeal to his authority is relevant) and provide some commentary to that quote. Large copy/pastes are not permitted in this forum.

I'll give you the rest of the evening to fix, then I'll have to delete it as propaganda per the forum rules.

How was that rude? I guess everyone has their cross to bear.

How do you know your right? Things can be\get worse you know.

Yes I am fully aware that things could be ALOT worse. We could end up like most of the middle east, and hang homosexuals. Do I think that is right? Hell no. But when it comes to the bible, I don't view it as 'maybe im right or maybe im wrong'. I take into concideration the facts that I DO know.

If God created me ONLY to be predestine to burn an eternity in hell, then that is not a God I choose to acknowledge. And I don't believe in a spiteful and jealous god. Seriously... if there is only one god, why is he so worried about us fulfilling his wishes? Makes no sense to me. What competetition does he have? The devil??? haha According to Christianity, God created the devil. Apparently Jesus taught us to love our enemies and don't judge and to accept people for who they are.... but wait, somehow that doesn't apply if thier gay??? Yeah... ok... whatever. Sorry Christians, but whether your right or wrong in the end, your expressions of love and acceptance are WAY off from what you were supposed to be taught as "Christians". And quite frankly, I don't believe in fairly tales, whether they be written a few years ago or 2000+ years ago.

MZ3Boy84, please shorten the quote, provide a link or better citation (perhaps tell us who John L Armstrong is and why an appeal to his authority is relevant) and provide some commentary to that quote. Large copy/pastes are not permitted in this forum.

I'll give you the rest of the evening to fix, then I'll have to delete it as propaganda per the forum rules.



Ok.. sorry Skin. :(

EDIT::: Corrected.... sorry again.

No. God loves gays, He declares homosexual sex to be an abomination. You and Fred are both wrong.


Maybe God shouldn't have given humans the capacity for gay sex then...?
For a supposedly omnipotent being he seems prone to a lot of mistakes.

Maz3 made it up. He admitted wrong doing.

\
How do we eliminate cruelty? How, How HOW.

Maybe God shouldn't have given humans the capacity for gay sex then...?

For a supposedly omnipotent being he seems prone to a lot of mistakes.
*************
M*W: Good argument.

Maz3 made it up. He admitted wrong doing.

Huh??? I didn't make it up. I simple posted the transcript.

The very same scripture says you can't eat shellfish. The same scripture says you can't wear clothes of two different materials.

You are as guilty as those you are currently whining about. The word of god will stand even if you and 99.999999% of the worlds population disagree with it.

:bugeye:

Such a hypocrite.

Of course i am a guilty sinner. I have never stated differently. There is no hypocrisy in it at all.

I am not judging people from a position of perfection. God is. All i have done is reveal the message of God and warn of His judgement.

You can accept that or not.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Of course i am a guilty sinner. I have never stated differently. There is no hypocrisy in it at all.

I am not judging people from a position of perfection. God is. All i have done is reveal the message of God and warn of His judgement.

You are, per your own admission, a "guilty sinner".

Being a "guilty sinner" disqualifies you from being a reliable messenger of God's message.

A fallible person cannot know that which is perfect.

Of course i am a guilty sinner.

Then you really need to stop whining about what other people are up to. Why try and get the speck of dust from their eye....? Well?

Concentrate on your own worthless little life.

Of course i am a guilty sinner. I have never stated differently. There is no hypocrisy in it at all.

I am not judging people from a position of perfection. God is. All i have done is reveal the message of God and warn of His judgement.

You can accept that or not.

*************
M*W: Adstar, it saddens me that you are a "guilty sinner." I would rather think that you are a good man, a righteous man. Why do you denigrate yourself so? If god is judging you, why do you believe that you are a sinner? I see that as self-doubt. I would be tempted to think you were a good man, but if you believe your god would condemn you, that proves there is no god at all! Can you explain this to me?

Because the Word of God says so.

"And how do you know this?"

"The bible tells me so."

"And why do you believe the bible?"

"Because it's the word of god!"

Arrrrgggghhhhh!

*spirals down into an infinite vortex of circular logic*

You are, per your own admission, a "guilty sinner".

Being a "guilty sinner" disqualifies you from being a reliable messenger of God's message.

A fallible person cannot know that which is perfect.

Wrong. A fallible person can be lead by an infallible God even while that person is still very fallible; moses, david and jonah are prime examples in the scriptures.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

M*W: Adstar, it saddens me that you are a "guilty sinner." I would rather think that you are a good man, a righteous man. Why do you denigrate yourself so?

It is no denigration. I am not lowering myself from a higher position. I am simply adnowledging my existing position. I am a human being and like all others i am a hopeless sinner. I have accepted the fact, I would like to be a better person of course, it is sometimes very frustrating being a human being being able to think great thoughts and at the same time thinking garbage thoughts. But as i said. I accept what i am and am at peace with it. I know God loves me and that i am forgiven for my limitations.

If god is judging you, why do you believe that you are a sinner?



Well as a follower of the Messiah Jesus God will not be judging me, I am forgiven. I know i am a sinner because His Word reveals Both what sin is and also the remedy. Taken as a whole the Word of God gives both conviction and peace o mind. But unfortunately many people seem not to reach that peace of mind because they reject conviction at the first step or they end up disbelieving in Gods forgiveness.

I see that as self-doubt.



Self doubt is a good thing when you have enough wisdom to know you are not perfect. We should doubt anything that is not perfect. When one doubts themselves ego and pride are weakened and the door is open for one to be used by another, Unfortunately most people like that end up following guys like Hitler, starlin, mao, bin larden or the pope. I follow God who is not just another man but who is a perfect leader.



I would be tempted to think you were a good man, but if you believe your god would condemn you, that proves there is no god at all!

You like so many human beings just cannot get a grip on the concept of perfection. All you seem to be able to do is see things from a point of relative goodness or badness from your own human perspective. What is good to you is mealy the lesser of two evil positions.

And the message of the scripture is God condemns people more for their attitude towards sin rather than for sin itself. The scriptures reveal that God is willing to give forgiveness to all who come to Him with contrition. As Jesus said when he gazed over Jerusalem "“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" God is willing and able to forgive but people must also be willing to be forgiven.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Then you really need to stop whining about what other people are up to. Why try and get the speck of dust from their eye....? Well?

Concentrate on your own worthless little life.

I am not trying to remove the speck from their eye. I am trying to tell them that we all have a problem because we all have a speck in our eyes. I am also revealing to them to One who can and is willing to remove the speck from their eye.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

I am not trying to remove the speck from their eye. I am trying to tell them that we all have a problem because we all have a speck in our eyes. I am also revealing to them to One who can and is willing to remove the speck from their eye.



All Praise The Ancient of Days
But what of the beam in thine own eye?

Wrong. A fallible person can be lead by an infallible God even while that person is still very fallible

A fallible person cannot know that which is perfect.

Even if led by a perfect God, as long as the person is fallible, they can not know perfection.

A fallible person can not recognize perfection.

As such they cannot be God's trustworthy messengers.

But what of the beam in thine own eye?


Yes.

Adstar - what makes you so sure that the beam in your own eye is not blinding you when it comes to knowing God?

A fallible person cannot know that which is perfect.

Even if led by a perfect God, as long as the person is fallible, they can not know perfection.

A fallible person can not recognize perfection.

As such they cannot be God's trustworthy messengers.
depends on what you mean by fallible

the living entity, either in its liberated or conditioned state, is always dependent (dependent on either god, or a separated energy of god, ie this material world with the false view of being independent)

All that is required to be "infallible" (and hence a capable spiritual leader) is to be properly dependent on god

All that is required to be "infallible" (and hence a capable spiritual leader) is to be properly dependent on god

... and to be "properly dependent on God" requires that one be "properly dependent on God", right ...?

... and to be "properly dependent on God" requires that one be "properly dependent on God", right ...?
I am not sure what you are trying to get to ...

That there are no further qualifying descriptions of what it means to be properly dependent on god?

:confused:

I am not sure what you are trying to get to ...

That there are no further qualifying descriptions of what it means to be properly dependent on god?

That these requirements are most likely circular.

That these requirements are most likely circular.
what makes you say that?
Maybe you could provide an example of what you understand to be a qualifying description and explain why you think it is circular

what makes you say that?
Maybe you could provide an example of what you understand to be a qualifying description and explain why you think it is circular

For example:

In order to know God, the person has to have the right intention.
In order to have that right intention, the person has to know God.

Theists don't formulate it this briefly - but a lenghty discussion starting with the question In order to know God, what is necessary? and the initial answer The right intention, will reveal the circularity I'm mentioning above.

For example:

In order to know God, the person has to have the right intention.
In order to have that right intention, the person has to know God.

Theists don't formulate it this briefly - but a lenghty discussion starting with the question In order to know God, what is necessary? and the initial answer The right intention, will reveal the circularity I'm mentioning above.
well, it could be unpacked a bit
for instance there are scriptural indications of what qualifies as wrong intention - in the vedas they are commonly refered to as jnana (mental speculation) and karma (fruitive activity)

for instance pursuing knowledge of god with the expectation of an elevated material situation (money, wealth, position, etc) would be an eg of having an intention mixed with karmic desires (and is therefore a bit off the mark of pure , unalloyed intention)

But what of the beam in thine own eye?

What?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

A fallible person cannot know that which is perfect.

Even if led by a perfect God, as long as the person is fallible, they can not know perfection.

A fallible person can not recognize perfection.

As such they cannot be God's trustworthy messengers.

If you truly believe what your saying here greenberg then you have locked yourself in to a disbelieving dungeon. You can never believe in anything of God because you cannot trust in anything you hear or experience in relation to God.

So to the Question one must ask you and you must ask yourself:

Why are you looking for God when you have come to the conclusion that you (an imperfect being) can never know the Will of God?

Is not your whole seeking a complete waste of time if you truly believe in what you have said in the above Quote?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If you truly believe what your saying here greenberg then you have locked yourself in to a disbelieving dungeon. You can never believe in anything of God because you cannot trust in anything you hear or experience in relation to God.

So to the Question one must ask you and you must ask yourself:

Why are you looking for God when you have come to the conclusion that you (an imperfect being) can never know the Will of God?

Is not your whole seeking a complete waste of time if you truly believe in what you have said in the above Quote?

I am just being unconditionally honest and not taking things for granted.

But apparently unconditional honesty is what makes it impossible for a person to believe in God.

God knows what you are doing.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

What?

Has it ever occured to you that the beam in thine own eye could be blinding you to the truth about God?

God knows what you are doing.

And if you are right about God, he will send me to hell for what I'm doing.

Has it ever occured to you that the beam in thine own eye could be blinding you to the truth about God?

I trust God and if the beam in my own eye is blinding me to the truth about God then I trust that He will overcome my blindness and allow me to see what i need to see. :)


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

And if you are right about God, he will send me to hell for what I'm doing.


If you have come to the knowledge of the Love of the Truth and you are using this logic in an attempt to justify non acceptance of that truth? Then yes God will condemn you to eternity in the Lake of Fire.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

I trust God and if the bean in my own eye is blinding me to the truth about God then I trust that He will overcome my blindness and allow me to see what i need to see.

And in the meantime, you are free to be cruel to everyone and accuse them of lying and dishonesty, right?

And in the meantime, you are free to be cruel to everyone and accuse them of lying and dishonesty, right?

Cruel?

Telling people what you honestly believe is not cruel when you do so in the hope for their eternal benefit.

So i have a direct manner and i don't beat around the bush. What i have to say does offend some But still it is up to them to either accept or reject what i say.

If people want fluffy and ear tickling lies and they get angry when someone tells them the hard truth then so be it. They can go and listen to people who will tell them what they want to hear and they can spend the rest of their lives in wilful ignorance, it is their call.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

But still it is up to them to either accept or reject what i say.

No, it is not. And this is the part you are unable to understand.

I've been telling you this for weeks, but you just don't understand it.

No, it is not. And this is the part you are unable to understand.

I've been telling you this for weeks, but you just don't understand it.

What exactly do you mean by this? As far as I'm aware, I'm free to reject Adstar's claims as much as he's free to claim them. Unless you're talking about within a hypothetical where Adstar's God exists...?

What exactly do you mean by this? As far as I'm aware, I'm free to reject Adstar's claims as much as he's free to claim them.

You might be free to reject them - but this might cost you to go to eternal hell.

No, it is not. And this is the part you are unable to understand.

I've been telling you this for weeks, but you just don't understand it.

Yes i have read what you have been saying and how many different ways you have been saying the same thing. Yes i understand what you are saying but i do not agree with you at all.

Your logic would be nice and neat if God was a distant God who did not interact with His creation. You probably could plead ignorance and the lack of ability to find God and to know Him enough to believe in him without doubt. But God is not a distant God But has a will for man to make a choice between evil and good between rebellion and acceptance. God calls men out with their conscience but as i said before men can resist and build up any philosophical wall to try to defend themselves against the glaring reality of God.

Men are quite capable of brainwashing themselves with their reasoning but when it comes to the eventual meeting with God that all men will come to no such smart talking will cut ice with the One who sees deep inside into what lurks within a mans conscience.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Yes i have read what you have been saying and how many different ways you have been saying the same thing. Yes i understand what you are saying but i do not agree with you at all.

Your logic would be nice and neat if God was a distant God who did not interact with His creation. You probably could plead ignorance and the lack of ability to find God and to know Him enough to believe in him without doubt. But God is not a distant God But has a will for man to make a choice between evil and good between rebellion and acceptance. God calls men out with their conscience but as i said before men can resist and build up any philosophical wall to try to defend themselves against the glaring reality of God.

Men are quite capable of brainwashing themselves with their reasoning but when it comes to the eventual meeting with God that all men will come to no such smart talking will cut ice with the One who sees deep inside into what lurks within a mans conscience.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Perhaps I could just blow a bullet into my head. It would make absolutely no difference in comparison to believing what you say above.

i downloaded two books one is good and the other is like hellish shit wars and death
2008_ gods final witnes 1
and the other one is prophesied end of time ronald weinland 1

really easy to read books and pretty well precise i reckon but im not a professionl book person on truth and fact and the down load is free i leave it on me laptop and read page for page and i will have my own opinion about the books

Perhaps I could just blow a bullet into my head. It would make absolutely no difference in comparison to believing what you say above.


What?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days