Imagine you're Ernst Zündel


Saturday, March 5, 2005
Toronto


Imagine that you're 65 years old and you're in jail. In solitary confinement. You are strip-searched whenever you see your lawyer. Once before. Once after. For two years.

Imagine that you're there because two politicians signed a piece of paper ("security certificate") saying that you are a security risk. You are not charged with a crime. You don't have a criminal record. You have lived in Canada for 42 years.

Imagine that those two politicians don't have to be right, so long as a judge thinks that they are "reasonable". So long as they are "reasonable", they can deport you to a country where you go to jail for saying something that you have the right to say in Canada. The Supreme Court of Canada had promised you that right.

Imagine that the prosecutor and the judge get to meet secretly without you and your lawyer and you never find out what they did in secret, what they read, who they saw. Again and again.

Imagine that your lawyer thought he was at a critical point in your trial. He thought the lunch break was longer then usual. Turns out the judge and the prosecutor were having a secret session again while you had lunch. They refuse to tell you or your lawyer what happened.

Imagine that you are accused of causing violence so bad that you are a danger to Canadian national security. When you ask when and where, they say: can't tell you. You ask why not, they say: national security.

Imagine that the judge making so many mistakes that it took more than 100 pages of transcripts to show them all. Imagine the judge making the same mistakes again and again. And always to your detriment. Imagine this judge having the power to deport you and you have no right of appeal.

Imagine that a prominent civil libertarian tells you this process is wrong and he will stand with you to say so, only to back out at the last minute.

Imagine that he comes back as soon as you were deported, condemning this process as your plane left Canada.

Imagine that a judge says she thinks this process is unfair to you and will say so in court, only to change her mind at the last minute.

Imagine that a newspaper counts the number of security certificates and yours is never included. Imagine the moment you have been deported, everyone talks about how awful and illegal security certificates are.

Imagine that the media is suddenly interested in you, as soon as they are sure that you will be deported. Your deportation and upcoming jail time is reported in meticulous detail.

Imagine that this is Canada in 2005 and you've been named in a security certificate.

Imagine that everyone says that security certificates are a disgrace to Canada but somehow it was fine to use one on you.

Imagine that you may be Ernst Zundel, or you may be someone with an opinion disliked by many.

Peter Lindsay & Chi-Kun Shi,

counsel to Ernst Zundel

Apparently this guys only "crime" is to say that the Holocaust did not happen in the context of historical fact and that the Jews have made it out to be a damn sight worse than what really took place. Is this such a "crime"? Does anyone know anything about this mysterious "case"? In a democratic society this man has the complete and utter right to speak his mind, right or wrong. If he does not think that something happened and challenges it, what right does a criminal justice system have to detain him indefinitely, in secret, without a charge, deeming him a danger to "national security"? Is the "Jewish Lobby" that powerful that anyone who speaks out against their favourite "moan" - the holocaust, can be whisked away in the night? Something here stinks. Anyone know about this?

Mod hat: Please include links or source for referencing and so people can back check your sorcing

Adelaide Institute

All I have at present is that. Will post link very shortly, need to ask third party.

I did find these:

http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/zundel.asp?xpicked=2&item=zundel

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/

http://www.rense.com/Datapages/zunddata.htm

This man is obviously right wing, possibly to the extreme but still, is it a crime to speak your mind? Apparently he is a "thought criminal" !!!!!!!!!

I found this site, which originated the thread opener. As to the accuracy of the story, obviously, must be taken at face value. I do not know the political leanings of the Institute involved. The url is:

http://www.ihr.org/

Who Is Ernst Zundel, And Why Is He In Jail?
By Mark Weber
September 2003



For more than six months now, Ernst Zundel has been held without charge in solitary confinement in Canada on the pretext that he is a threat to national security. In fact, this 64-year-old German-born writer, publisher and civil rights activist is a political prisoner and a victim of great injustice.

Who is this man, and why is his case important?

Zundel was arrested at his home in Tennessee on Feb. 5, where he had been living peacefully with his wife, Ingrid Rimland, on the pretext that he missed an interview date with immigration authorities. Two weeks later he was deported to Canada, even though his wife is an American citizen.

Claiming that he is a national security threat, Canadian authorities have been holding Zundel since Feb. 19. The Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) — something like the American FBI — supports this charge by citing tenuous and years-old ties by Zundel to “white supremacist” groups. While acknowledging that he is not violent himself, CSIS also argues that material published by Zundel might cause “like-minded individuals to engage in violence.”

There is absolutely no basis for the “security threat” charge. Zundel’s life is an open book. He is a peaceful man with no record of violence. During the 40 years he lived in Canada, he was never convicted of a crime. In fact, he has himself been a victim of hate and violence. He survived at least three attempts on his life, including a devastating arson attack against his residence.

Jewish groups are demanding that Zundel be deported to Germany, where he faces years of imprisonment for the “thought crime” of “denying the Holocaust.” (“Holocaust denial” is against the law in Germany, France, Switzerland and some other European countries.)

Zundel is in prison not because his views are unpopular, or because he’s a “security risk.” He’s in prison because Jewish groups want him there. He’s a prisoner because he promotes views that the Jewish-Zionist lobby considers harmful to its interests.

This lobby is the decisive, critical factor in the decades-old campaign to silence him. The only sustained and institutionalized effort to imprison him has come from this lobby, which includes the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Canadian Holocaust Remembrance Association, and the League for Human Rights of B’nai B’rith (with the Anti-Defamation League, its counterpart in the US).

A few prominent Canadians have been speaking out against the unjust treatment of Ernst Zundel.

One such person is Bill Dunphy, a veteran investigative journalist and editor for the daily Hamilton Spectator. He spent six years probing Canada’s “white supremacist” movement, and got to know Zundel personally. Although he has no sympathy for Zundel’s views, in a hard-hitting column (Hamilton Spectator, May 14) he told readers:

“Our government has seized and branded Ernst Zundel, stripped him of his human rights, tried him in secret and found him wanting, and will now hand him over to a foreign government anxious to throw him in jail...

“... Zundel — who did this country a favour by wiping off the books our disgraceful False News laws — has never once been convicted of a criminal offence in this country, never once found to have violated the hate crime laws that rest snugly around the throat of free expression in this country.

“Calculating correctly that there was no political cost, no ‘down side’ to slipping on the jackboots to kick a reviled old man out of our country, our government cobbled together their best insults and innuendo, and Lord knows what secret ‘evidence,’ and branded Ernst Zundel a threat to national security.

“I know this man, his local and international contacts and I know this movement. And after reading the 58-page ‘unclassified’ summary of the government’s case, I can assure you there is no justice here. Their ‘evidence’ is riddled with errors and misinformation, hearsay and inflammatory innuendo. Dead men walk again, and the shattered bits of shoddy secret networks long since collapsed under the weight of their own ineptitude are made whole and menacing once again. It is a shameful piece of dishonest, unreliable tripe.”

The trendy Toronto weekly Eye pointed out in an editorial (May 15) that “declaring Zundel a terrorist now is not the result of any startling new information,” but rather “it has to do with political pressure ...” The paper added:

“The new security certificate admits Zundel has ‘virtually no history of direct personal engagement in acts of serious violence.’ It labels him a terrorist partly because he ‘seeks to destroy the multicultural fabric and underpinnings of Canadian society.’ Citing opposition to official multiculturalism as a type of terrorism risks expanding the war on terror to include everyone to the right of Pierre Trudeau.

“Anti-terrorism provisions should not be used as a catch-all solution. Misapplying terminology in this way damages its credibility, and undermines the efforts against real terrorism. It has also, of course, damaged the integrity of our refugee system.”

Similar concerns have been voiced by the daily Times Colonist of Victoria, British Columbia. In an editorial, “Even Zundel Merits Fairness” (May 9), the paper declared:

“... The way the federal government is trying to get rid of Zundel is wrong — it is using law that is so sweeping in its scope that it may be, as Zundel’s lawyer Doug Christie argues, unconstitutional. It would allow him to be deported on evidence that amounts to mere assumption and subject him to a kangaroo court process where no defence can be mounted.

“The Canadian Security and Intelligence Service calls Zundel the patriarch of Canada’s white supremacist ‘movement.’ It argues he is a risk to national security — a finding essential for his deportation under this procedure — because he is trying to ‘destroy the multicultural fabric and underpinnings of Canadian society.’

“... Most Canadians would be surprised to learn that the country’s multicultural fabric could be torn apart or society toppled by Zundel’s rants which are not, in fact, broadcast widely. But this is the basis for CSIS’s security certificate against Zundel.”

The Canadian Association for Free Expression (CAFE), a leading free speech advocacy group, is demanding Zundel’s immediate release. “Mr. Zundel is quite literally a political prisoner,” says CAFE director Paul Fromm, who has also been acting as Zundel’s legal representative in his detention hearings. “He is being held in solitary confinement solely for the non-violent expression of his political views.”

The allegation that Zundel might be a threat to national security “is mischievous nonsense,” says Fromm. “Zundel has been politically active in Canada for 40 years. He’s a public figure. His writings and speeches are available on-line. He’s been investigated for years by the police. He’s an open book. Zundel has never advocated or practised violence, nor have his followers,” Fromm adds. “He’s a pacifist and a publisher.”

A Life of Struggle

Ernst Zundel, a towering figure in the worldwide Holocaust revisionist movement, was born in 1939 in a small town in the Black Forest region of southwestern Germany. He emigrated to Canada at the age of 19, where he soon married and became the father of two sons. It wasn’t long before he made a name for himself as a successful graphic artist whose work appeared, for example, on the front cover of Canada’s national news magazine, Maclean’s.

Setting aside a thriving career, he resolved to dedicate himself to the great task, as he sees it, of redeeming the sullied reputation of his fellow Germans. Through his Samisdat publishing house he distributed worldwide a prodigious quantity of books, booklets, leaflets, newsletters, and audio and video cassettes. Simon Wiesenthal, the well-known “Nazi hunter,” has called Zundel the world’s number one distributor of allegedly dangerous literature and cassettes.

He has written countless booklets, newsletters and essays. He is a prodigious publisher, a one-man public relations firm, and an able public speaker and organizer. A dauntless leader in struggle against apparently insurmountable odds and seemingly invincible adversaries, no revisionist is more tenacious, dedicated and courageous.

Ernst Zundel, who sometimes describes himself as a "Swabian peasant,” is an outgoing, good-humored man who is blessed with a rare combination of unflagging optimism and practical ability. He maintains this infectious spirit even under very trying conditions. He is an unusually alert and sensitive individual with a keen understanding of human nature. He knows how to persuade, cajole and encourage his supporters to give their best for the greater good. He inspires confidence, loyalty and affection.

Zundel is probably best known for his central role in the “Holocaust Trials” of 1985 and 1988. He was brought to court in Toronto on a charge of “publishing false news,” and specifically for publishing a reprint edition of a booklet entitled Did Six Million Really Die?.

To wage the legal battle that was forced upon him, he brought together an impressive international team of revisionist scholars, legal specialists, researchers, and many others. From numerous libraries and archives in North America and Europe, this group assembled at “Zundelhaus” one of the most impressive collections of evidence anywhere on this chapter of history.

Zundel’s two lengthy trials — the 1985 trial lasted two months, and the 1988 trial lasted four months — have been the closest thing anywhere to full scale debates on the Holocaust issue. For the first time ever, “Holocaust survivors” and Holocaust historians were closely and critically questioned under oath about their claims and views.

Among those who testified on Zundel’s behalf in the two trials were Robert Faurisson, David Irving, Mark Weber, William Lindsey, Udo Walendy, and Bradley Smith. As a result of the two trials, an enormous quantity of compelling evidence refuting the Holocaust extermination story was presented to the court and thereby was made part of the permanent public record. The most important of this evidence was the historic testimony of American gas chamber expert Fred Leuchter about his on-site forensic examination of the alleged extermination gas chambers in Poland.

Zundel was found guilty in the 1985 trial, but the verdict was set aside by the provincial appeals court. It ruled that the judge in that trial had, among other things, given improper instructions to the jury, and had improperly excluded defense evidence. In May 1988, at the conclusion of the second Zundel trial, the jury declared him guilty. A few days later, he was sentenced to nine months imprisonment.

On appeal, Canada’s Supreme Court threw out the conviction, declaring on August 27, 1992, that the archaic “false news” law under which he had been convicted was a violation of the country’s Charter of Rights. This was not only a personal vindication by Canada’s highest court; Ernst Zundel secured an important victory for the rights of all Canadians.

Zundel’s next great legal battle was fought out before the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal in Toronto on charges, instigated by Jewish groups, of promoting “hatred or contempt” against Jews through the “Zundelsite” Internet web site (www.zundelsite.org), operated by Ingrid Rimland from the United States. In this legal action, as the Tribunal’s presiding Commissioner declared, the truth or validity of the supposedly “hateful” items was not a consideration. The Tribunal ultimately ruled against Zundel, declaring the “Zundelsite” to be unlawful.

After four decades in Canada, including a failed effort to acquire Canadian citizenship, he moved to the United States, where he married Ingrid in January 2000. For two years they lived quietly in the mountain region of eastern Tennessee.

Of this remarkable man, Robert Faurisson wrote in 1988: “Zundel may once again go to prison for his research and beliefs or be threatened with deportation. All this is possible. Anything may happen when there is an intellectual crisis and a realignment of historical concepts of such a dimension. Revisionism is the great intellectual adventure of the end of this century. Whatever happens, Ernst Zundel is already the victor.”

Zundel is not a nice chap and his opinions are contemptible and deranged. Those are not reasons to imprison him, especially under the conditions that seem to have been imposed on him. I have written to the Canadian Embassy asking if this summary is accurate and pointing out that the only reason free speech has value is if fools or maniacs like Zundel can speak and be defeated openly. I have written and suggested that other people do the same.
The ihr are holocuast deniers.

I'm so fed up with jews whining about the holocaust that I really wouldn't mind another one taking place ummm tomorrow. They've been a plague to Europe and the rest of the world for too long. Besides, inventing judaism and being the cause for christianity and islam are reasons good enough to get rid of them.

Ever hear people of the former USSR complaining so much, though more were killed or sent to death camps?

Careful Avatar, your posts smacks of racism, banning could ensue from such. BUT you make a good point about the constant "whining" from the hard done to Jews. I am also totally sick of it. Its time to live for now, not in the past. Anyway, the Jewsish state is not blameless in Palestine is it?

Careful Avatar, your posts smacks of racism.. So jews are another race? ^_^ nice one, Red Devil
banning could ensue from such
Too many people are keeping their mouths shut in fear of the oppression from jews.
Who's endangered?
Its time to live for now, not in the past.
The jews are all about the past. Their archaic traditions, Rome occupying them in the past, some jews killed in the middle ages, etc. All I hear from them is the past and they're choking the rest of the people with their past.

p.s. During the middle ages about 9 million people in total were sentenced to death because they were thought to be heretics, witches, about 6 million of them were women, not counting those who were killed in mass histeria or driven to suicide.
But today we hear of only the "poor" jews. Maybe it's because they own most of the media in the USA?
http://www.realnews247.com/who_rules_america_updated_2004.htm

If you talk about any so called ethnic group these days in anything other than a neutral way, you one side or the other. Its an evil sign of the times that you cannot speak your own mind anymore. I strongly disagree with it, but its there.

Oh, you can speak your own mind. Its just that, like always, others may not like what is said and may respond poorly.

Mod hat: Please include links or source for referencing and so people can back check your sorcing

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/

This is the url but I cannot vouch for its politics.

Clockwood. I am not anti anybody but there comes a time when lines must be, or should be, drawn. One of those is now, the holocaust happened or it didn't happen but its time now to put it to bed. There is almost nobody alive nowadays who even remembers it, let alone took part in it. The Jews should now let it go.

Let's face it: not all belief systems mix. There's nothing "racist" about suggesting those who follow one imaginary god should not mix with, for example, predominantly idealistic European society.

Anyway, the Jewsish state is not blameless in Palestine is it?

Similarly, however, Jews and Palestinians may not mix - their religions and cultures are vastly different (and any student of history knows that multiculturalism fails in every society).

Interestingly, Israel is literally a nationalist, socialist state - very similar to Hitler's "National Socialist" NSDAP.

so multiculturalism fails in all societies does it. Then England is doomed. We have so many of the buggars creeping in through any means possible, we are definitely doomed!

I understand the man was speaking his mind and there are consequences to that, of course. But to think him a threat? I think that's going a bit too far. He can speak as much as he wants, but others still have the choice whether to listen to him or not. By finding him threatening, aren't we infringing on the others' freedom to choose and decide whether what Zundel says is relevant or not?

Yeah, the size of the Jewish lobby group is large and it is very influential. That's one very weighty reason why US is so involved in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. But the entire wolrd keeps repeating "Oh poor Jews" like it's a mantra (well, all besides the Arabs, of course). Darn, Jews manage to point out their Jewishness and all implications with it in practically every sentence! Every time a Jew gets into a conflict with a non-Jew, the Holocaust is dragged out. Well yes the event shouldn't be forgotten but do our lives really have to evolve around it? Why don't we ask Italy to pay up for all the slavery and occupation during the glorious times of the Roman empire? I'm sure we can find plenty of descendants of those who suffered and we can think up many ways of how their lives are influenced by the actions of the Romans of those long-gone years.

PS. I read up this story, which is not related to Zundel but is a good example on its own of how that whole Holocaust memory goes too far. It's also about a court case; about business loss of a family after WWII: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4318891.stm

Some of you posters seem to have problems with race, ethnicity, religion, whatever. So I simply ask:WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?

There is a problem when a group of individuals thinks that the world owes them because of some historical happening of a long long time ago. Nobody owes anybody. It's time to let go of the issue of that damn Holocaust. Same goes for slavery, etc.

Annoying and whining jews trying to control and to an extent controlling other governments, media, public thought, etc. That is a problem. Of course birds too politically correct or hiding their heads in the sand don't want to see that.

I think Jews succeed largely because of the Christian guilt syndrome.
So, let me ask, for how long are we going to be compensating for the Holocaust and slavery? Another century or two? Like in that monkey experiment?

I think that's exactly because of that what that monkey experiment showed AND because of christianity which is a weakness and a cultural disease for all the nations of Europe.

Does it really plague Europe as much as it plagues US? Well, aside from the Vatican, Arabs and Israelis.... I know that Greeks and Russians are very religious (to generalize). While reading sciforums I got the impression that the world is mostly atheistic, so it comes as a shock to see religion so powerful all around. (A small miscalculation there, I know, but still...) I never noticed that whole Jewish over-awareness and pride while in Europe; it seems to me that they came to US and became the way they are.... It's so strange to see Russian people turn Hasidic! That group of Jews is an interesting phenomenon on its own, btw.

Does it really plague Europe as much as it plagues US?
Never been there, don't know.
While reading sciforums I got the impression that the world is mostly atheistic
Maybe because these are sciforums?
I never noticed that whole Jewish over-awareness and pride while in Europe
Well.. when you step down away from the mainstream pop culture that is in every shop window and every smile of a polititian...
But Europe is really more atheistic than most of the world, it's just that most of the world is mad religious AND in Europe it's not about the religion, but jews setting up support organizations in every country and bitching about the holocaust where they can and getting the most out of it. In other words, it's their society and method of being, not religion that frustrates the most. Of course, the society is entangled with culture and with religion.
it seems to me that they came to US and became the way they are....
They have been in Europe for much longer. Old habits don't change fast. (see. monkey exp.)

Well here, there are plenty of people who go to church regularly. I never really encountered anyone like that; I suppose it's because the busy atmosphere of New York takes away from church time. Well the Jews of course go to worship regularly (I don't know how these people survive financially with a dozen of kids per family....) In USSR and post-USSR, I didn't see a mass of people go to the house of worship every weekend. Sure every Russian wears a cross (at least those I've met), but many haven't been to a church in their life and many have never read the Bible. I expected that USSR regime whipped that religion habit pretty cleanly into reasonable dimensions.
Are Germans and French that religious?... Anybody from those areas who can tell whether religion can be called a plague there?

But I see what Avatar's saying.

No, no, we're not THAT religious, at least in the baltics, but christianity has had affect on how society functions/operates. Is still having.
The same political correctness which is a spawn of christian chruch dogma to love everyone including your enemies, be pure, etc, etc. Of course, not that anyone is loving their enemies, but that is weakening the cultures and societies, the become more meak and sheeplike.

What's funny is that politicians themselves aren't that religious. They do what they have to do and mention religion to get what they want from the public. The irony almost makes me wish the masses were smarter. How right Niet. was when he said all that democraticy+no suffering will create more dangerous dictators! Why can't societies openly operate on, say, Odin worship?

Avatar your posts on jews are slightly scary... Ill addmit that what their doing in palestine is no better than what the germans did to them in ww2... which was horrific.

white wolf that was about me wasnt it hehehehe...

I dont worship odin, odin meens - one in russian so its like... me vs life... my own invention to explain why I hate being alive so much... I have good reason to... why? because I find life pointless... we are all going to kill each other and are never going to get off this rock to a brighter peacefull future.. (hate to break it to you wanabee physicists working on anti matter engines in their garages) . <- ok that explains my name and odin worship... back to jews and genocide...

Odin is also the highest Viking god. Vikings worshiped him and other deities in their violent times, and as they settled the Odin worship declined. Yeah, I also found the similarity of the word interesting. The deity was also blind on one eye: had to give it up to acquire wisdom and great knowledge.

What's so scary about those remarks about Jews? Haven't you seen them while you were here?

I knew who odin was white :p i was describing my version of the word which i did not relate to the viking god.

Im not so scared by the remarks on jews.. per say... its more about the holacaust idea... vslayer is young and has never seen war first hand, this takes away his ability to have any idea of what genocide is like which makes it easy for him to say somthing like that. and thats what scares me about modern society people start to forget. im probably a few years older than him so I blurt out the same stuff from time to time but usually I try to keep my mouth shut so I dont insult the dead.

Im tired of jews complaining about ww2 aswell but it dosnt make me want to start a genocide since i respect that lots of innocent people die.

Palestine is a different matter but I dont cross the two... speaking of palestine seperately I would have punched/shot/stabbed anyone who complained to me about the holacaust in the face.

Robert Faurisson was set on by violent thugs in a Paris park while alone walking his dog in 1989, after giving evidence for Zündel. An extremist Jewish organisation claimed the credit, in a message to the press. Neither this, nor being formally deprived of his professor's title has dissuaded Faurisson from his beliefs.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/05/03/Zundel_in_Germany_2.html

Some of you posters seem to have problems with race, ethnicity, religion, whatever. So I simply ask:WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?

What's your problem with people deciding they don't like a certain belief system or the group that supports it?

You're some kind of weird fascist, man.

:m:

Avatar your posts on jews are slightly scary... Ill addmit that what their doing in palestine is no better than what the germans did to them in ww2...

Yet Israel needs to exist, and thus needs to remove non-Jews from its territory. What's wrong with that?

:m:

Yet Israel needs to exist, and thus needs to remove non-Jews from its territory. What's wrong with that?

:m:
Does Spain in order to exist has to remove all non-spaniards from its' territory?

Yet Israel needs to exist, and thus needs to remove non-Jews from its territory. What's wrong with that?

:m:

We are going off topic here but Israel belongs to the Palestinians, it was forcibly removed from them by the USA in 1947/48. It is NOT their territory.

WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?
In many cases the problem is that these people feel sorry for themselves and thinks that "the jews" are getting the pity they ought to have.

Avatar your posts on jews are slightly scary... Ill addmit that what their doing in palestine is no better than what the germans did to them in ww2... which was horrific.
Hardly. The establishment of Israel was a wrong and the behavour of Israel to the Palestinians has been wrong, but it cannot be compared with the behaviour of the nazis. Just count the number of dead and deported and what was done to them

We are going off topic here but Israel belongs to the Palestinians, it was forcibly removed from them by the USA in 1947/48. It is NOT their territory.It is not whose territory? Is there some kind of exemption point for when countries "belong" to people? Should Australa be left to the aborigines, the USA to the Native Americans; should the Normans and Anglo-Saxons get out of England? If not, why not?

Does Spain in order to exist has to remove all non-spaniards from its' territory?
In the fifteenth century Spain deported all muslims and jews. In the sixteenth century Spain deported- or tried to deport- all descendants of muslims and jews regardless of their religion. It was not until well ointo the nineteenth century that protestants were tolerated in Spain.

Aha!, you give me a good idea. So all I have to do now is to remove all non-latvians from Latvia. Sweet! :cool: /sneers

Well you only have to look at the effect on Spain of its intolerance, which was pretty disastrous. On the other hand, the Ottoman empire and the Netherlands- where the moriscos and jews went- benefitted from their new citizens. There was also a certain hypocrisy in that the Spaniards were moving into South America and killing the inhabitants and announcing they had the right to do so. All you can do is begin from the actual existing situation and see where you go from there.

Yeah but that would remove half of Latvia's current population. I doubt a country can function with that few people (what would the numbers be then?) Besides, I plan to reside there. What's important in a nation-state is that it's inhabitants identify with the title of that nation state. If your non-Latvians still think they're Russians and the territory is a part of Russia, there's a problem (otherwise, there really isn't).
Many Palestinians still think that "Israel" is their "Palestine," which is why they need to be removed.
Does Israel need to exist? Well, since the Jews are pushed out of everywhere else, other nations have to make a place for them. That's why Israel was made. What was taking place originaly was that Jews would buy land in Palestine and live there; then, the Palestinians started to have a roblem with that (if I remember well). After Israel was created, Jews acquired territory in fair combat. Nothing wrong with that. In my mind, if Israel is to ceise its existance it has to be accomplished in a war.

Spain was trying to get rid of semites to preserve its culture. Today we know that preservation of culture does not have to be achieved by genocide or deportation of a group (darn, I doubt my own words).

Zundel has been imprisoned not for his Holocaust denial, since unfortunately it's not a crime in Canada.

he's been imprisoned because he was deemed a security risk because of the potential that he would incite skin-heads full with teen-age angst and nobody to take it out on, to fire bomb synagogues or whatever. that's just one of the things he could do. another one is to organize a large neo-Nazi movement in Canada. i'd say it's a fairly accurate description of public risk

this guys only "crime"
so it's "only" a crime.. and the crime is not really a crime since it's in quotation marks...
why is this guy still allowed to post? are moderators here asleep or are they Nazis too?

freedom of speech.. bla bla bla
so now it's a freedom of speech issue? what about incitement and hate crime issues?

Hardly. The establishment of Israel was a wrong and the behavour of Israel to the Palestinians has been wrong, but it cannot be compared with the behaviour of the nazis. Just count the number of dead and deported and what was done to them


Have you ever been to gaza? the isrealis mark palestinians on the shoulder with red chalk when they leave, search and scare them with attack dogs, scream at them, insult them. not to mention moving them to a confined space that could be considered a large containment camp... all that remains is an over all genocide.

are moderators here asleep or are they Nazis too?
Boo! http://piparmetra.net/forums/images/smiles/gun.gif

since when are people who dont like zeonist nazis, nazis?

the guy doesn't like Jews. remember what the thread is about?

He didnt say he dosnt like jews , he said he dosnt like jews who complain about the holocaust... thats his opinion, screaming about it wont change his opinion.

so Jews should just shuttup about it and never mention it again..right?
or they can mention it but only as long as they don't irritate anyone...correct?
a Jew should shuttup about it, but a neo-Nazi can criticize Jews for speaking and call the Holocaust a non-crime?

i think if the Holocaust would happen to your family and friends and your entire group, and then a scum like Zundel would tell you "stop whining about it" or "those dead people are figments of your imagination" you wouldn't be singing that tune.

you miss read because you keep getting emotional.

A jew can talk about it intellgiently instead of using it to explain everything he does wrong in life. a neo nazi can just shut the fuck up compleatly. and a holocaust is a crime BUT EVERYONE BLOODY KNOWS ABOUT IT.

I dont support holocaust but i hate it when surviving it is used to justify other crimes and laws.

Remember, children, we learn history so that we may not make the same mistakes again. We do not learn history to be pitied and showered with money and priviledges and excuses on behalf of our predecessors.

PS. allow me to share a joke =)
A christian comes to confess his sins, says: "Father, I have done a great sin!" The priest asks, "What sin was it?" The christian says, "I have deceived a jew!" And the priest replies, "Oh it was no sin, it was a miracle!"

so Jews should just shuttup about it and never mention it again..right?
or they can mention it but only as long as they don't irritate anyone...correct?
a Jew should shuttup about it, but a neo-Nazi can criticize Jews for speaking and call the Holocaust a non-crime?

I dare you to say you're tired of hearing the black man always complain about the white man keeping him down.

Hell, at least THAT is actually still happening as opposed to the holocaust so they have a more legit reason to complain about it. So while I don't wanna hear blacks talking about whites having to owe them anything for the years in slavery (in which they didn't live through, much like the Jews that complain today), not being able to vote, and whatnot, they have more room to talk as opposed to Jews about the Holocaust.

It's called being a man, growing some balls, and moving on. Yes, don't forget the past, absolutely, but don't live in it! THAT is the difference.

- N

I dare you to say you're tired of hearing the black man always complain about the white man keeping him down.
when i was in high school i used to think it was sort of cute/funny/pathetic how the black kids used to complain about institutional racism even though they weren't even old enough to experience that. and institutional racism here in Canada, if it exists, it is to a far less degree than it is in the States.

but you know what, i'm not in their shoes so i wouldn't know. and you wouldn't either.
just because there's no extermination camps now doesn't mean i should forget about it, or feel comfortable about it, or just smile when some guy says it was a big lie to further a Jewish conspiracy, or that it wasn't a crime.
the fact alone that it is being debated indicates deep dislike towards Jews. it's not about freedom of speech, it's about hate.

Zundel is not a fighter for the freedom of speech. he's trying to organize a Nazi movement... the same movement that 40 million died to defeat 60 years ago.

whatever. you can debate about his freedom of speech all you want. he's a danger to the public and i'm happy he was and will continue to be behind bars. fortunately, for now, Nazism is still a negative thing. although some US soldiers and prince Harry dressed up as Nazi SS guards to parties so i guess it's not so taboo anymore. i guess in 10 years we'll have bigger neo Nazi parties around... societies have very short memories... with the short attention span and all that...

all i can do is keep my own personal space safe. if a guy comes up to me spewing this bullshit in my face, i'll knock him out. as for the rest of the forgetting world, the only thing left to do is hope it won't get too bad.

Have you ever been to gaza? the isrealis mark palestinians on the shoulder with red chalk when they leave, search and scare them with attack dogs, scream at them, insult them. not to mention moving them to a confined space that could be considered a large containment camp... all that remains is an over all genocide.
All that remains? There is quite a big difference between "a containment camp" and a death camp, wrong though the first is..

it's not about freedom of speech, it's about hate.The way to deal with hate-mongers is to point out that they're deranged and wrong. If they incite crimes they can be tried and convicted.

Zundel is not a fighter for the freedom of speech. he's trying to organize a Nazi movement... the same movement that 40 million died to defeat 60 years ago. Is he trying to form a nazi movement? He appears to be deranged and obsessive. Furthermore, a nazi movement now in Canada would not be the same as seventy years ago- there are very different circumstances.

whatever. you can debate about his freedom of speech all you want. he's a danger to the public and i'm happy he was and will continue to be behind bars. even from your viewpoint, would he be more of a danger in the open that as a martyr behind bars? How do you decide whether someone is a danger to the public who should be indefinitely locked up? Do you trust the Caanadian government and judiciary and every future Canadian government and judiciary enough to give them that right? Should only nazis be locked up or should other unspecified "dangers to the public" join him? fortunately, for now, Nazism is still a negative thing. although some US soldiers and prince Harry dressed up as Nazi SS guards to parties so i guess it's not so taboo anymore. i guess in 10 years we'll have bigger neo Nazi parties around... societies have very short memories... with the short attention span and all that... One reason people dress up as nazis is precisely because nazism is seen as distant and ridiculous, like the Spanish Inquisiotion. It is a nuisance to society as a whole. It is a threat to some groups and individuals, but individual nazis can be dealt with on an ad hoc basis.

You are all of obvious intelligence but one thing sticks out amidst accusation and counter accusation, your political and social views cloud judgement. I have neither, as WW2 research is a hobby, I have learnt to ask, quetion and be of open mind. Please no infighting, we should all be friends together - be nice eh?

To question what happened all those years ago, or yesterday, is not being anti anything. Its simply "I do not think this, or that, happened. Please prove me wrong, or right."

To question Jewish affirmations that 6m died is not heracy nor blasphemous. But, becuse it involves a section of our people who seem to thrive on their past, its looked upon as revolutionary, why?

We all live on the same planet but you would not think so. Please, just because somebody questions what one "side" state is fact, do not be so quick to shoot them.

I have just finished a mountain of research on the village massacre of Oradour sur Glane, France in which 642 people were butchered and a village razed. The reason it happened, an angry SS Major and some looted gold! Others may think differently, thats democarcy and open mindedness.

thersites , 27 million russians died in ww2 but i dont see very many bitching about it or using it to get special treatment < you pushed me to mention that otherwise i would have kept quiet about the past like I always do. if you count the amount of people that died in death camps by which I meen of slavic origin , then there were about 8-9 million alot more than jews... WHO ARENT A RACE ANYWAY... yes 6 million big nosed black haird people died in death camps because the zionist.racist nazi propoganda labeled them that way and yes death camps were worse than hell it was terrible... but let them stop complaining and asking for rights as THEY WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES , Gipsys, blacks ,slavs ,muslims, gays all died in the halocaust aswell...

and ironically enough so were catholics.

But i have to agree with odin this time. Altho it was a terrable thing eventually we just have to make it a thing of history where we agree it was terriable, vow never to repeate it and never forget it but that we dont let it still have power over us. Just like 11\9 cant be used as an exsuse the way it has been, nor can the holocost. Its over, we cant change it but we can move forward or we can validate it and which would you rather? People are already saying that the US deserved what it got because of there actions in responce to 11\9, do jews really want the same atitude being aplied to them? People starting to think maybe hitler had a point?

Why we all should be concerned with the case of Ernst Zundel is best explained by a poem supposedly found in one of the Nazi camps. It goes sometning like this.
First they came for the Communists; I said nothing, I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews; I said nothing, I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics; I said nothing, I was not a Catholic.
Then they came for me; there was no one to say anything.

Turning a blind eye to an injustice because you do not like the views of the victim will lead to more injustice which may catch up to you one day.

I hate mongers and war mongers and would love to throw them in jail to silence them and thereby stop them from leading others to violence. Unfortunately one man's "hate monger" is another man's truth teller / freedom fighter / wise leader. I would be pleased if the NeoCons were silenced because I think their views are threats to the national security of the USA. The NeoCons probably love to see Americans who believe what I believe silenced because they think my views are a threat to the national security of the USA.

I think God is a comedian. If we weren't so emotionally entangled in our beliefs I think we would see that all of the doings of the glorified worms that we call "humans" are high comedy. Zundel is a proud German who can't believe that Germans could do anything wrong therefore the Holocaust must be a Jewish conspiracy. So many proud Jews can't believe that Jews could do anything wrong therefore any claim that Israel has been unjust to Palestinians must be anti-Semitic hate speech. It's all funny as long as no-one criticizes my sacred beliefs.

If Zundel is deported to Germany he can be jailed there because Holocaust denial is a crime there. In my brief look into Zundel I did not see that he ever advocated any violent actions against the supposed besmirchers of Germany. If he never advocated violence against the besmirchers then I think it is a stretch to prosecute him for what might happen if his propaganda led to more people feeling victimized by Jews.

If Zundel can be prosecuted for what people who believed his propaganda lies (about a Jewish conspiracy making up the holocaust and victimizing the world) might do to seek "revenge" against Jews then shouldn't gay hating Christians and Arab hating media pundits also be prosecuted for the things that their believers might do in the future?

I think we should wait until somebody actually advocates violence before we prosecute somebody for stating their sincere but stupid beliefs.

I am sorry if Jews can not feel safe in a society that allows Holocaust deniers to speak but we can't pick and choose who gets free speech without risking the loss of free speech. I think widespread liberal idealism is a better defender of Jewish safety than tough political maneuvers could be. Corporate bandits and the patriotic advocates of Pax Americana are not reliable allies for anybody. The Christian hard-liners may be the Zionists allies now but they have the potential to transform into a nightmare for Jews. Liberal idealism may side with the Palestinians now but liberal idealism has no potential to ever become a nightmare for Jews. Jews living in a Christian dominated world will only be as safe as Liberal idealism is strong in the Christian world. Sorry.

thersites , 27 million russians died in ww2 but i dont see very many bitching about it or using it to get special treatment You didn't look then. Soviet/Russian historians still complain bitterly about how the "west" left the USSR to do the fighting. It was standard rhetoric used to justify the Soviet occuppation of Eastern Europe after WWII.< you pushed me to mention that otherwise i would have kept quiet about the past like I always do. You aren't much of an historian then. if you count the amount of people that died in death camps by which I meen of slavic origin , then there were about 8-9 million alot more than jews... As a proprtion of the population the number of dead slavs [not many more than Stalin did in] was a lot smaller than the proportion of jews. The nazi aim was to reduce the "slavs" [who aren't a race either] to helots. they intended to completely exterminate all of the jewsWHO ARENT A RACE ANYWAY... antisemites don't agree with you: "I decide who's jewish." The nazis didn't even think jews were human.yes 6 million big nosed black haird people died in death camps because the zionist.racist nazi propoganda labeled them that way and yes death camps were worse than hell it was terrible... The nazi definition of "jews" and " "mischlings" did not only include "big-nosed black-haired people": anyone who had ancestors who were allegedly jewish was going to go eventually, no matter how Aryan they cunningly looked. but let them stop complaining and asking for rights as THEY WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES , Gipsys, blacks ,slavs ,muslims, gays all died in the halocaust aswell...The reason there hasn't been much fuss about gypsies is because East European governments didn't mind if they were killed. The nazis didn't get hold of many blacks to kill. The proportion of "slavs" was much lower, though the number was higher. Muslims weren't killed for being muslims: there were muslim Bosniak SS men. Gays too were murdered, but it was only those who were caught and identified- there were no lists of gays on census returns. Gays, like the jews, have also decided that they won't put up with the threats of idiot bigots any more.

ok thersites , then the proportion of gipsys killed was alot higher than that of the jews... slavs are a race , just like the saxxons

Im not arguing whether western governments caring stop trailing off. do the gipsys bitch about being slaughtered in the holacaust , do the gays? , do the blacs? do the muslims? no they dont. but the jews do.

Russian casualties? Ha! Go check out the amount of Chinese killed by the Japs. Not to mention in more horrific ways then the Nazi concentration camps. The Nazis have nothing on the Japs. The only reason why the Nazis are seen as so evil is because of the amount of complaining the Jews did afterwards. That and because they came close to having all of Europe, but lost.

- N

Oh yeah and all forgot about the treatment of Asians in US during WWII. When law suits were brought up later, those people got only a few thousands as compensation (forgot the number). The Asians were discriminated against ever since they started coming here. Do the Japanese complain in America? No. You don't even hear from them.

ok thersites , then the proportion of gipsys killed was alot higher than that of the jews... slavs are a race , just like the saxxons

Im not arguing whether western governments caring stop trailing off. do the gipsys bitch about being slaughtered in the holacaust , do the gays? , do the blacs? do the muslims? no they dont. but the jews do.
Did you read my post? Yes, the gypsies do complain and about continued persecution as well. Again, there weren't many blacks killed; muslims also fought for the nazis too. The Soviet Union/Russia continues to complain about their dead. The gypsies and the jews were the only ones who were meant to be completely wiped out and every record that they had ever existed made to vanish.
With regard to the Soviet Union, where did you get your figure of twenty seven million dead? I've seen estimates from twenty to forty million dead: I've never seen an accurate and careful assessment. Does your figure of twenty million include:
people murdered or deported to death by the Soviet Union in 1939-40 after they took over chunks of Poland and inland and the Baltic States; people already gaoled or convicted in the course of the war by the Soviet Union on trumpped up charges of treason or sabotage; the nations deported en masse just in case they collaborated with the nazis; people who fought against the Soviet Union; people who fought for the nazis elsewhere; people who were sentenced to death or imprisonment for living in German-occupied territory or being POWs after the war ended?
I have never come across a Soviet/Russian source which examines and discusses these matters.

Oh yeah and all forgot about the treatment of Asians in US during WWII. When law suits were brought up later, those people got only a few thousands as compensation (forgot the number). The Asians were discriminated against ever since they started coming here. Do the Japanese complain in America? No. You don't even hear from them.
Compare treatment of prisoners and death rates between US detention camps and the nazi extermination and labour camps. There are quite a few people and places which complain about the US detention of Japanese people in WWII. One reason the US is so enthusiastic about detention and torture now may be because it never had to consider what it did in the past.

Russian casualties? Ha! Go check out the amount of Chinese killed by the Japs. Not to mention in more horrific ways then the Nazi concentration camps. The Nazis have nothing on the Japs. The only reason why the Nazis are seen as so evil is because of the amount of complaining the Jews did afterwards. That and because they came close to having all of Europe, but lost.

- N
Again, the Chinese govrenment whips up hostility to Japan for WWII still- probably because the CCP killed even more people- quite possibly forty or fifty million- and doesn't want the Chinese people thinking about that.. The Japanese made enormous low-interest loans and grants to China since then, but never said this was recompense or reparation: equally, the chinese government never mentioned this either.