when muslims say that Mohammad was the "seal of the prophets", they seem to mean two thinngs;
1) that God sealed His connection for making prophets (so no more prophets to humankind), thus Mohammad is the last prophet
2) that Mohammad had a "seal", some mark between his shoulder blades, that 'sealed' him as a prophet, in other words he was "marked" by God

as a Christian I have two problems with either meaning;
1) since very little of the quran follows biblical truth, I find it hard to believe that the quran was inspired by God. Also, most christians feel that Revelations was the last & final Book of the Bible, no more, ever
2) since Mohammad was "sealed", I would like to know what the 'mark' was? was it "666"? therefore the mark of the devil. why was Mohammad 'marked'? no other prophet was marked, except for Jesus, He got a whipping for us. all other prophet didn't have marks, Moses studdered, he radiated light after being in God's presence on the mountaintop

The supposed seal was a mole on his back. Why anybody thought this was a sign of the prophet I have no idea.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 189:
Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:
My aunt took me to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! This son of my sister has got a disease in his legs." So he passed his hands on my head and prayed for Allah's blessings for me; then he performed ablution and I drank from the remaining water. I stood behind him and saw the seal of Prophethood between his shoulders, and it was like the "Zir-al-Hijla" (means the button of a small tent, but some said 'egg of a partridge.' etc.)

The supposed seal was a mole on his back. Why anybody thought this was a sign of the prophet I have no idea.

unkown how a birthmark or mole can 'seal' someone, thus;

Marilyn Monroe 'sealed' as the last beautiful woman
Goribchev 'sealed' as the last communist
Carmen Electra 'sealed' as the last artificial woman
Enrique Iglesias 'sealed' as the last spanish-language singer

since very little of the quran follows biblical truth,
qu'ran or bible please define truth.
as truth is only truth to who is saying it's the truth at the time.
thank you

The supposed seal was a mole on his back. Why anybody thought this was a sign of the prophet I have no idea.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 189:
Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:
My aunt took me to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! This son of my sister has got a disease in his legs." So he passed his hands on my head and prayed for Allah's blessings for me; then he performed ablution and I drank from the remaining water. I stood behind him and saw the seal of Prophethood between his shoulders, and it was like the "Zir-al-Hijla" (means the button of a small tent, but some said 'egg of a partridge.' etc.)
Don't forget, that in the past, birthmarks, moles and other skin markings were seen to be either evil or signs from God. This did not exist solely in Islam, but in every other religion and society that existed. Think back to the witch hunts where women who had a scar, mole or birthmark on their bodies were seen to have been marked by the devil and these women were burnt at the stake. In Catholicism even today, people who supposedly suffer from the stigmata phenomenon are seen by others to have been touched by Jesus.

Cindy Crawford beats Marilyn Monroe. :p

- N

Randolf

You're paying Enrique Iglesias the hugest compliment by calling him a singer. Infact you're doing a huge disservice to the profession if you include him in their ranks.

as a Christian I have two problems with either meaning;
1) since very little of the quran follows biblical truth, I find it hard to believe that the quran was inspired by God. Also, most christians feel that Revelations was the last & final Book of the Bible, no more, ever
That's a rather redundant statement. Of course you don't believe anything but what you're programmed to believe- which is christianity. Therefore there is no way you can accept anything else to possibly be the truth.

No religion allows any room for there to be any truths but the ones contained in the pages of its holy texts. Ordained by whatever god who is omni-everything by definition, there can't be anything true but (for example) what is said the bible if I were christian (I mean come on, if you don't believe what is in the bible then you don't believe in your interpretation of an omniscient god therefore you debase your whole belief in christianity. But this is worked around by many through the ungod-like nature of the blooper riddled holy texts to which people subscribe and their own powerful usage of purposeful ignorance. Ah the content of knowing what a boon it has been to me being brought up without a dogma (religious or otherwise) chained around my neck).

No one comes to believe about god unless there are external influences working their magic. Every person is programmed into believing in something. The difference between me and most religious people is I have programmed myself and they haven't. If feel lucky that way because if I change my mind about something it is not going to shatter the basis of who I am, unlike all those religious sods who are in fear of having so much of who they are disproved that it causes irrational thinking and behaviour.

Peace,

a

qu'ran or bible please define truth.
as truth is only truth to who is saying it's the truth at the time.
thank you]
so truth is relative? then according to you, there is no truth?
are you talking about ideas or concrete facts?

Cindy Crawford beats Marilyn Monroe. :p

- N
no, sorry, MM is the 'seal' of beauty, all others are false, corrupted, evil 'beauties'

MM was a cow of a blond. A little heavyset and nothing at all remarkable about her face or legs. People who try to tell me that Marilyn was some uber sex symbol, boy I know they have some pretty plane jane tastes.

anyway, what proof can islam show that Mohammad was the "seal" of the prophets? mormons believe it was Joe Smith. how can a birthmark prove anything? sounds weak, no logic

Randolfo, what proof can you show that Christ ascended to heaven?

The entire point of faith, whether you believe in the immaculate conception, the angel Moroni, or the the revolutionary potential of the proletariat - is that isn't a logical exercise.

no, sorry, MM is the 'seal' of beauty, all others are false, corrupted, evil 'beauties'

I'll skip the false part but I don't mind the corrupted and evil beauty part. I like my women fiesty. :D

- N

I am a born Sunni but came to embrace Shiism.
Welcome to Sciforums.

Would you mind why that conversion.? I personally feel that shiites are a bit emotional.

Randolfo, what proof can you show that Christ ascended to heaven?

The entire point of faith, whether you believe in the immaculate conception, the angel Moroni, or the the revolutionary potential of the proletariat - is that isn't a logical exercise.

that's the stupidest statement i have heard in a while.

i hope you dont have any faith that when you press "submit" that your reply will go through.

or that the chair you are sitting in will hold you up

or that you will be alive an hour from now

or that your lungs won't collapse on you



it doesnt matter where you believe you are a human being or not, it's not "a logical exercise".

It's all faith, hm?

Randolfo, what proof can you show that Christ ascended to heaven?
From a band of scattered, scared disciples to band of bold evangelists, martyred believers willing to die for their risen Lord, even with 40 years of intense persecution by Jews (until the Jews revolted against the Romans & lost) & then over 300 years of intense Roman persecution (until the Romans converted).

Paul even said, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, we are the most miserable of deceived people. Something proved to those of that era that Jesus had power over death; otherwise why struggle for all those years? Read 1 Co 15:12-34 (1 Book to the Corinthians Chapter 15: verses 12 to 34)

now as for us, well that’s based on faith, who should we believe? a man that claimed to be God? or a man that claimed only to be his apostle (with a flawed message, a flawed book & a flawed character)?

Read the Bible, then decide.

Dear Rondolfo,
Thank you for bringing up such a intresting issue for discussion, and I think being a muslim I might have some information more than others in dealing with issue.
thank you on both counts


First you said that "seal" seam to mean last of the prophets which i agree with. As for the other meaning that seemed to you which is the birth mark has nothing to do with seal of prophets, it is a matter that lists under the issue that each of the prohets of God, the Almighty, had sighns that show that he is the one mentioned by earlier prophets one of which is the birthmark between his shoulders.
not sure that is Biblical, all other prophets had miracles, not birthmarks, can you show where you got that info?



Second you referred that the Bible is your referrence as a christian, that which i respect, but that you are questioning another religion means that conversation should be based on mutual referrences not on your own referrence. We as muslims do not hold the Bible as a referrence nor do we think that it holds The Truth.
Hence, you should, with all due respect convince me that your referrence is the truth or i convince you with my referrence so that the discussion be rational.
without the Bible, there is no quran, Mohammad would not have known what stories to put into it.

Also, the quran several times has dual messages; it confirms the Bible, yet disagrees with it; it has people mentioned as prophets that never existed in the Bible; it says no compulsion in religion, then death to the infidel; it says that you should pray to Jerusalem, then Mecca. The quran is a human book, it can not be eternal, otherwise it would have come down (as stated by some muslims), from heaven ‘unedited’, but as history, the hadiths & the quran prove, it is a compilation of some of Mohammad's sayings, at least 4 versions existed & pre-dated Uthman’s final edition.With all those errors, the quran can not be a universal reference point, except for muslims that believe it is inerrant

Randolfo,
Religion is politics. The Jews used Christianity to throw of the shackles of Roman oppression. So what if people died for their beliefs?

American soldiers die for Bush and Cheney's beliefs. Muslims strap on dynamite and blow up Jews for their beliefs. Following your reason, there must be something incredibly true in the Quran and Bush's get oil schemes. Otherwise, why struggle?

Khaled A. Jawish

And Dear Atheroy,
I am, although a beleiver in Islam, admire your way of thinking and that there is no dogma attached around your neck, and i tell you beleive me there is no dogma attached around my neck too. I respect rational thinking and truth could be reached by it not any other means. I have come to embrace my own religion after being convinced it is the truth and questioning every bit of it. Not only that but many of the traditional beleifs by my muslim bretheren i came to refuse after judjing them. For one, I am a born Sunni but came to embrace Shiism.
People should think for themselves, indulge in conversations and find the truth for themselves while respecting each others differences, or God's creation of our brains would be meaningless. And in the end we shall all, hopefully, come to the same truth.

It's all good. I find that people who have come to accept religion later in life tend to be much less ignorant than the religious person who is conceived at birth. I wouldn't go so far as to say I have no dogma's chained around my neck after thinking about it. I am a product of my society whether I want to align myself with society at large or not.
I therefore try to deconstruct all of the messages that are encoded in this media saturated existance we live. Of course I will favour western values over others values because of what I am, but that does not stop me from questioning why this is the case.
I think for one, mostly everyone could chill out a bit. Everyone has to understand and respect the fact that there are different cultures all over this world and we should be trying our damned hardest to be respectful of each others cultures even if we find it alien.

I'll stop preaching but there's to much agnst going around that is caused by antagonists who's beliefs cause them to think they are superior. To me that is religions main undoing. People like George W Bush believe they are righteously motivated and that because of this, their personal beliefs are superior to any others. The same can be said of Osama Bin-Laden, Hitler, Mel Gibsons dad. People who hold onto these convictions can never really respect another persons culture because even before this different culture was met, the person is prejudiced against it. That to me seems to be the cause of intolerance and why calls for religious tolerance from people like the pope sound hollow. When it comes down to it he knows he is superior to some or any muslim, buddhist, protestant. There can be no middle ground because it is black and white.

I feel free because I can accept or reject parts of anyones culture knowing that I am not doing it because innately I feel superior to the people that practice what they do. I can accept and even understand one part of peoples need for religion- I often struggle with the fact that the only purpose I have here on this earth is what I make it. That and a life span of something more than a hundred years (if I'm lucky and unlucky). Apart from that, I do seriously believe that people who have been brought up within religious beliefs are programmed. Whether they move on to hold convictions that are greater than what they were brought up believing- the fact of the matter is that the conviction will never change, it will only be enhanced. The neurological pathways that have been formed from the religious up bringing ensure that unless a severe knock to the head shakes them loose, a person with such beliefs cannot change this. They will always need it because it is a part of them. I can't grow this understanding because it wasn't something that I learned from my parents when I was growing up. I said I'd stop my spiel ages ago so I'll stop for real now.

cheers to anyone who reads this,

a

Randolof,
Religion is politics. The Jews used Christianity to throw of the shackles of Roman oppression. So what if people died for their beliefs?

American soldiers die for Bush and Cheney's beliefs. Muslims strap on dynamite and blow up Jews for their beliefs. Following your reason, there must be something incredibly true in the Quran and Bush's get oil schemes. Otherwise, why struggle?

thanks Roman, for making me ‘Russian’, I guess ‘cut & paste’ is too much to ask? would you have preferred that I go by the name, "ay Yliudrtewhgj2233"? There, much easier on the tongue & to type, no? you can call me 'ay 2233' for short.

anyway, back to the subject, I don't think islam could have taken such intense persecution in its early days, Mohammad was forced to insert the "satanic verses" & may have changed his first monotheistic message to a more pagan Meccan one (by including it as the qibla, the Kaaba, Mecca as the hajj destination, Ramadan & their crescent-moon god as allah), then no it couldn’t, but now it can.

soldiers have to die for the beliefs of their bosses, whether under G. Bush or Mohammad, any one that slinks back, would be a coward, or if he defies them, a treasonous or mutinous one. anyone that dies for G. Bush, may be stupid, but if you die expecting virgins in heaven as your reward, you are deluded.

those early Christians were civilians, they didn't have to stand up for Christ, could have been ‘average joe’ Americans, you know Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. & could have blended in with the culture, not made waves, lived normal lives, but no, they felt like proclaiming Jesus from the markets, to the mountaintops, under threat of death.

Anyway, we'll see if the Palestinians can withstand that much oppression under the Israeli state.

Sorry 'bout that typo. I changed as soon as I saw it, which was before I read your reply.

So Islam has what you percieve to be idolatry. Who the fuck cares? Christianity has Christmas trees and Santa Claws. That's really goddamn pagan.

The mother who blew herself up in palestine was a civilian. She didn't have to do it, and I don't think she was getting any virgins.

In "the early days" Islam was dishing out intense persecution from the sands of Arabia and Egypt to the shores of Spain. Islam actually could withstand persecution. They withstood barbaric invasions of cannibalistic Christians.

that's the stupidest statement i have heard in a while.

i hope you dont have any faith that when you press "submit" that your reply will go through.

or that the chair you are sitting in will hold you up

or that you will be alive an hour from now

or that your lungs won't collapse on you



it doesnt matter where you believe you are a human being or not, it's not "a logical exercise".

It's all faith, hm?

What the fuck are you even talking about? There's empirical evidence that hitting submit will create a new post. There is no empirical evidence that proves or disproves the existence of God. Hence, it's not something that can be proved rationally or shown through a logical exercise. And since you were apparently too stupid to piece this together ... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. Faith and logic are two separate spheres of human endeavor.

And Randolfo ... other people may have mentioned this, but ... okay, so the Qu'ran doens't follow Biblical truth, in your estimation. Well, the Bible doesn't follow the truth of the Torah, in the estimation of most Jews.

As for your second post ... within less than a hundred years, the theories Marx expounded in Das Kapital went from being so irrelevant that the Russian czarist censors couldn't even be bothered to bar their entry into Russia to the ideology of the second-most powerful nation in the world. That doesn't prove that Marxian economics are correct.

What the fuck are you even talking about? There's empirical evidence that hitting submit will create a new post. There is no empirical evidence that proves or disproves the existence of God. Hence, it's not something that can be proved rationally or shown through a logical exercise. And since you were apparently too stupid to piece this together ... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. Faith and logic are two separate spheres of human endeavor.
.

Since I am apparently too stupid, is there empirical evidence that "faith and logic are two separate spheres of human endeavor"

All the reports about God were not based on observation is what you are saying then, which is certainly equally "stupid" and rather arrogant of you. So Christ never ascended even though there were numerous witnesses?

:confused:

They withstood barbaric invasions of cannibalistic Christians.

Damit I knew randolfo is caannibal.......... :D :p

Dear everneo,
I'm sorry you think of shiites as a bit emotional, we tend to think of ourselves as being the most logical people, since we are nearly ther only sect that attributes everything in religion to logic!!
My conversion came after deep thinking in what controls the other, the text or the brain. after I applied this issue to a number of sects: shiism, sunni, sufi, judaisim, catholicism, protestants and hindu... I found myself siding with the shiite point of view!!

Dear Randolfo,

{not sure that is Biblical, all other prophets had miracles, not birthmarks, can you show where you got that info?}

You insist on referring to the bible again and again....

{without the Bible, there is no quran, Mohammad would not have known what stories to put into it.}

That is the same like saying that without the old testement, there is no new testement. If we considered that the Prophet did know those stories before revelation that wouldn't falsify Islam or all the prophets after Moses would be false including Jesus!!

{Also, the quran several times has dual messages; it confirms the Bible, yet disagrees with it}

Can you tell me which of the bibles that is, At the Nicea I conference held by emperor Constantine II there existed more than 50 gospels.... So which bible does the Quran confirms!!
We Muslims see the Gospel that has been revealed to Jesus by God to be confirmed by the Quran and it reveals the truth, but where is that Gospel??
And the Quran disagrees with all books claiming to be the Gospel at the time they are not.

{it has people mentioned as prophets that never existed in the Bible;}

Do you think that the prophets are only those mentioned in the Bible or even only in the Quran, it's due to God's mercy that all people of the world have their own prophets from amongst them so that God would have given everyone their chances to beleive or not.

{it says no compulsion in religion, then death to the infidel;}

Did you for once try to put the verses in each case within their context and try to understand the whole picture, or you just wanted to build a false case against Islam!

Yes, the main creed of Islam is <NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION>. And when the Quran mentions that we must kill the infidel, it is stating that in war time when both armies meet on the battlefield, and that we must not be mercy with that specific
infidel, because we will find none from him!!

{it says that you should pray to Jerusalem, then Mecca.}

Please where in the Quran does it say that we should pray to Jerusalem!! Yes, muslims in Medina did pray facing Jerusalem, but at the same time those in Mecca and Ethiopia where facing Mecca, and they differed because there was no verse mentioning the direction.... Until God did answer the wishes of the Prophet and said that from nowon it is always should be facing Mecca!!

{ The quran is a human book, it can not be eternal, otherwise it would have come down (as stated by some muslims), from heaven ‘unedited’, }

That is your own opinion that I will not trouble myself with. And I am sorry that you are so negative about the Quran, but that is your buisness......

{but as history, the hadiths & the quran prove, it is a compilation of some of Mohammad's sayings, at least 4 versions existed & pre-dated Uthman’s final edition.}

The trouble with some non-muslims is that maybe the read Arabic, but not once can they understand a word of it. Yes, history does mention different versions of the Quran but that only differ in the tongue used in writing the verses, but the meaning is the same in all texts.... What happened during Uthman's era is that only the Qurashi tongue was adopted from all 10 tongues.. So thank you for not understanding Arabic!!

{With all those errors, the quran can not be a universal reference point, except for muslims that believe it is inerrant }

I am really surprised that such an intelligent reader such as you wouldn't find all the errors both in the bible and in the christian creed??
Now let me ask you, logically can you prove the christian trinity??

Dear StarOfEight,
I must mention I don't agree with your statement that the existance of God can't be proved.....
As a begining, let's start with this issue: can you mention all the possible theories of how the universe as a whole came to existance??
I'll mention three possibilities:
1- It came to existance by chance,
2- It never came to existance, it was always there,
3- "Something" created it..
These are my theories, if anyone has anymore theories please bring them up so that we might all discuss them...... Thank you

Since I am apparently too stupid, is there empirical evidence that "faith and logic are two separate spheres of human endeavor"

All the reports about God were not based on observation is what you are saying then, which is certainly equally "stupid" and rather arrogant of you. So Christ never ascended even though there were numerous witnesses?

:confused:

Numerous witnesses? In the Bible? Well, okay, and there's numerous "proofs" of the inevitability of the communist revolution in Marx.

And South and Yaz - God's existence cannot be proven. Nor it can it be disproven. That's my point. People can present arguments on either side (the prevalence of religious belief in human society vs. the insoluble questions of theodicy), but it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God.

Numerous witnesses? In the Bible? Well, okay, and there's numerous "proofs" of the inevitability of the communist revolution in Marx.

And South and Yaz - God's existence cannot be proven. Nor it can it be disproven. That's my point. People can present arguments on either side (the prevalence of religious belief in human society vs. the insoluble questions of theodicy), but it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God.

What then would you consider proof?

"God's existence cannot be proven or disproven"

Isn't this statement just as much a positive affirmation as "there is a God' and "there isn't a god."?
How can you be so sure of this?

My apologies that this has no relevance to the initial topic.

an interesting topic, but the seal of the prophets (saw) has nothing to do with birthmarks, it means the final Prophet, after which there will be no more.


Also, the Quran several times has dual messages; it confirms the Bible, yet disagrees with it;[/COLOR]

it confirms that the Bible was revealed by Allah but disagrees with it as it was changed. it says Christians are wrong but some are righteous (they have the wrong faith but are good in deeds and actions) and Allah will have mercy on them.


it has people mentioned as prophets that never existed in the Bible
like who? im not saying your wrong, im just asking for some examples. and anyway, the Quran has additions to it and omissions to it which were errors from the Biible and so corrected in the Quran.

it says no compulsion in religion then death to the infidel;
there is no need to follow Islam and it is not forced but death to the infidel who persecutes you and stops you from following your religion unless he repents.


it says that you should pray to Jerusalem, then Mecca Muslims were directed by Allah to pray to Jerusalem but after the Kabbah was free from idols etc it was changed to Mecca. also, there was a specific incident when the angle Jibreal told Muhammad (saw) to change the direction and it is not a contradiction because Allah says it was changed and does not argue with that beacause he was the one ordering it. the verse that Angel Jibreal used was even from the Quran telling Muhammad to no longer pray towards Jerusalem but to Mecca (and the mosque that the Prophet (saw) was praying in at the time is in Mecca, it is less then 5 mins walk away from the Kabbah[/QUOTE]


The Quran is a human book, it can not be eternal, otherwise it would have come down (as stated by some Muslims), from heaven ‘unedited’, but as history, the hadiths & the Quran prove, it is a compilation of some of Mohammad's sayings, at least 4 versions existed & pre-dated Uthman’s final edition. With all those errors, the Quran can not be a universal reference point, except for Muslims that believe it is inerrant [/COLOR]

the Quran is unchanged. it is a common argument used by anti-Islam sites to talk about Usman. it is impossible for the Quran to be changed. firstly, the Quran was fully memorised by thousands of the Prophets (saw) companions, first hand by the Prophet (saw) and hundreds of thousands of Muslims knew parts of the Quran. also the ENTIRE Qurans is recited every year by an Imam in front of thousands (at taraweh prayers). also Usman was a companion of the prophet (saw) and knew what the Quran was like.

so i don’t think that the Quran was changed but to you i guess it can be arguable but hey, what about the Bible, you can say if the Bible is God's final word then why has it been changed? the Quran being changed is arguable while the Bible being changed is definite (and proven as there are many versions of the Bible found throughout History and even know Christians cant agree on the Bible). Christians convienantly say that all of the good stuff in the Bible is from God while all of the contradictions and not so good verses are mans additions (one Christian website i went on staed that the Bible is like a treasure map and the beauty and wonders of it are from God but it has been changed slightly, they then said if you did have a treasure map and it was slightly changed, you'd still use the map and not totally reject it just beacasue of a few (actually many) errors and it is the same with the Bible)

and if The Torah is the final word from God, then why did another Abrahmic religion (Christianity) take over the land it was spread and another revelation and Prophet (as) sent down confirming the old revelations and bring glad tidings fro the new? and if Christianity is the final word from God, then why was another Abrahamic religion revealed that took over the land that Christianity spread to and why has another Prophet (saw) sent down confirming the old and bring glad tidings for the new? but there is no new religion and Prophet after Muhammad (saw) confirming the old and telling of the new revelations.

and what about the Prophecies of a future Prophet (saw) coming down in the Bible? how do you explain them Randolfo?

Sorry 'bout that typo. I changed as soon as I saw it, which was before I read your reply.
saw afterwards, I just find it hard to believe that so many people can spell it wrong, you are not the first, I guess I should have used something hard like "ay Yliudrtewhgj2233", to force 'cut & paste', I'm too touchy

So Islam has what you percieve to be idolatry. Who the fuck cares? Christianity has Christmas trees and Santa Claws. That's really goddamn pagan.
agree on the trees & claws(is there some hidden message there?) idols? you be the judge; all pray to Mecca, must visit once in a lifetime, circle the Ka'aba, kiss the black stone, cresent-moon symbol for starters, then there is 'shrine islam' holy graves & shrines & 'fetish islam' amulets, fetishes, spells, etc.

The mother who blew herself up in palestine was a civilian. She didn't have to do it, and I don't think she was getting any virgins.
actually, there was a discussion on that, not sure if they get 'male virgins', no consensus on that, but under islam, a martyr for islam, especially during jihad, goes straight to heaven, no &'s, ifs or buts...

In "the early days" Islam was dishing out intense persecution from the sands of Arabia and Egypt to the shores of Spain.

that's after political & military power came, try the first years of Mohammad in Mecca, he even inserted the 'satanic verses' then, because of the intense pressure, insults, boycotts & threats

Islam actually could withstand persecution. They withstood barbaric invasions of cannibalistic Christians.
cannibals? you mean 'blood-thristy'?
as I said, after islam was firmly esthablished, it has many aspects that form psychological bonding;
1) simple rules & sayings (5 pillars, the shout, confession)
2) conformnity (all pray to Mecca 5 x a day, customs, arabic)
3) belief that you have the last , most perfect revelation from god

an interesting topic, but the seal of the prophets (saw) has nothing to do with birthmarks, it means the final Prophet, after which there will be no more.
you need to read more hadith, Mohammad had a mole on his back

the Quran is unchanged. it is a common argument
yes many memorized parts, but even in the haiths, many say that several compilations happened before Uthman made the 'official' one, sorry, the quran is man-made

and what about the Prophecies of a future Prophet (saw) coming down in the Bible? how do you explain them Randolfo?
funny, how the Bible is "corrupted" when it suits muslims, but if they thing that it will swing their way, they use it.

Please, tell us what prophecies? when I read about Mohammad & his works, I think about the prophecies of the anti-Christ, false prophets, & the End of Days.

Mohammad was not the 'Comforter', read John 15: 26-27 to 16: 1-15 (the Gospel of John chapter 15: verses 26 to 27 & chapter 16: verses 1 to 15) the 'Comforter' is the Holy Spirit, you know, of the 'Trinity' that muslims don't believe in

peace, love
:)

you need to read more hadith, Mohammad had a mole on his back

ok, then he(saw) does, so what? that does not mean he(saw) is the last Prophet. there are 30,000 prophets, im sure one of them had a mole on their backs but they weren't the seal were they.


funny, how the Bible is "corrupted" when it suits muslims, but if they thing that it will swing their way, they use it.
I do not believe in the Bible anymore, it is only partially correct and has been altered by man. But YOU do believe in the Bible and I am asking YOU how do you explain the prophecies of Muhammad (saw). I'm not asking me or other Muslims, I'm asking YOU because YOU believe in the Bible so what do YOU say and how do you explain it?


[COLOR=Red] yes many memorized parts, but even in the haiths, many say that several compilations happened before Uthman made the 'official' one, sorry, the quran is man-made


What horseshit. You've been on a few to many Christian Missionary websites. OK about Usman (RA) burning other copies of the Quran that did not match. Firstly, I don’t know even if that actually happened and I doubt it but anywayz, they were not hundreds of copies of the Quran as those sites will want you to believe. In those times mass printing was not available and there was a Quran in every village Mosque, which was an open house for all to see so if Usman did have to destroy other versions of the Quran then there would only be a few and the errors would be obvious as he knew he had the correct one as did the thousands of people who were in the hometown of the revelation of the Quran.

Usman was a companion of the Prophet (saw) and he had the Quran recited first hand by the Prophet (saw) and also thousands of people at the time and location of Usman had completely memorised the Quran and the writing if the Quran was actually supervised by Muhammad (SAW) himself and after his death it was written under the guidance of the Islamic rulers and the companions of the Prophets and the most trustable in the society.

Also, the actual Quran in Mecca and Madinah are for definite 100% the same as that is where they were revealed and that is where they were written down IN THE PROPHETS (SAW) TIME and memorised by thousands plus recorded under supervision and authenticated. The other copied of the Quran were to spread Islam to other parts of Arabia and since the Qurans' sent to these countries were copied from the 100% correct version and by authentication and the caliphs it was right.

Also trying to change the Quran and giving it to the Muslims would of resulted in most likely death.

The Quran being altered by people is complete horsecrap and used by anti-Islam publications and missionary's and has no proper basis.

Well the problem Randolfo is when you critize someone else including their religion then you open yourself up to scrutiny. So please tell me how you can believe in the Trinity and still call yourself a montheist? How does the bible talk about women? Tell me one verse in the bible that was written by someone who knew Jesus(peace upon him) personally or even witnessed the "crucifiction" if Jesus was part of a whole who did he pray to? when was he God and when was he human? Why do you reject the old testement? because of the wars? well we as muslims acknowledge what God does when he gets angry do you? What is the book of Jashar?(joshua 10:13) did it have anything in it about Muhamaad? how do you know? why is it missing? how do you know nothing else is missing? What about the book of wars?(numbers 21:14) explain Chronicles 29:29 please.......you see i could go on but i wont.....I think one should examine their own backyard before they critisize their neighbors......peace

Well the problem Randolfo is when you critize someone else including their religion then you open yourself up to scrutiny. So please tell me how you can believe in the Trinity and still call yourself a montheist? How does the bible talk about women? Tell me one verse in the bible that was written by someone who knew Jesus(peace upon him) personally or even witnessed the "crucifiction" if Jesus was part of a whole who did he pray to? when was he God and when was he human? Why do you reject the old testement? because of the wars? well we as muslims acknowledge what God does when he gets angry do you? What is the book of Jashar?(joshua 10:13) did it have anything in it about Muhamaad? how do you know? why is it missing? how do you know nothing else is missing? What about the book of wars?(numbers 21:14) explain Chronicles 29:29 please.......you see i could go on but i wont.....I think one should examine their own backyard before they critisize their neighbors......peace

I agree. I cant understand why Christians claim that there is only one God, but then "three in One" and co-equal. Is the word "Trinity" mentioned at all in the whole Bible? And if the Bible is the words of God, why they have different versions? The words of God should be unique, no matter how the religion is divided. (As far as I know, even there are sub-divisions in Islam, they always refer to one Quran).

Well the problem Randolfo is when you critize someone else including their religion then you open yourself up to scrutiny. So please tell me

you see i could go on but i wont.....I think one should examine their own backyard before they critisize their neighbors......peace
I'm not sure if you noticed, but this forum is trolled & patrolled by a few muslims, that feel it is their duty to spread their propaganda here, I feel it is my duty to put the "truth" out there, to refute some of the 'big' & 'little' lies that they put out as 'truth'. Did you know that they want you to believe that Abraham, Moses, David & Jesus were mulsims?

Anyway, thanks for the comment, but the Bible is written in plain English (or what ever language you speak); it is meant to stand on its own, it does not need me to explain it, just for you to believe or reject it on its own merits. All the others start with the Bible, but then have 'buts', sometimes very "BIG BUTS", islam is one of those religions, the more you find out about its history & its founder, the more confounded you are that people believe actually believe it.

Randolfo, the Bible was written long before English existed. More to the point, if you hold Christianity be more true because it precedes Islam and the LDS church, then that same logic would make Judaism and Zororastianism more true than Christianity.

Furthermore, how can you critcize the Muslim appropriation of Jesus when Christians have appropriated Abraham, Moses and David?

I'm not sure if you noticed, but this forum is trolled & patrolled by a few muslims, that feel it is their duty to spread their propaganda here, I feel it is my duty to put the "truth" out there, to refute some of the 'big' & 'little' lies that they put out as 'truth'. Did you know that they want you to believe that Abraham, Moses, David & Jesus were mulsims?

Anyway, thanks for the comment, but the Bible is written in plain English (or what ever language you speak); it is meant to stand on its own, it does not need me to explain it, just for you to believe or reject it on its own merits. All the others start with the Bible, but then have 'buts', sometimes very "BIG BUTS", islam is one of those religions, the more you find out about its history & its founder, the more confounded you are that people believe actually believe it.



Well actually Muslim means "one who submits to Gods will" so the people you named were by definition muslims. What would you call them christians? Christ wasnt even around yet. I know the bible stands on its own but you dont bash its inconsistances(sp?) you only bash what you see in the Koran which either makes you a hypocrite or you think the Bible is perfect which is it? I am a muslim however if you notice i dont spread propoganda i only defend my religion because thats my duty to do so. There are muslims here who use means that i dont agree with but you should take that up with them not their religion.....peace unto you

Randolfo, the Bible was written long before English existed.
that's the beauty of it, God speaks to all, no matter what era, language, people, race, ethnicity, country. you do not have to read the Bible in Vulgate Latin, quranic Arabic or Koine Greek, unless you speak them as a matter of course.

More to the point, if you hold Christianity be more true because it precedes Islam and the LDS church, then that same logic would make Judaism and Zororastianism more true than Christianity. no, because they both spring from Christianity. neither islam or LDS could exist without Christianity. Judaism differs only in that Christians see the Old Testament & see prophecies about Jesus; including Psalms 22 & Isaiah 53. while Jews do not

the LDS can not stand upon any historical or archeological evidence, it is a docu-drama about the supposed ancestors of the Native Americans; the day that a "real" Naphite, Laminite or Jarite site is found, will be the day that many will have to eat their words; including the Smithsonian, Egyptologists, Mayanists, etc... & me. look forward to it


Furthermore, how can you critcize the Muslim appropriation of Jesus when Christians have appropriated Abraham, Moses and David?
ahh, but the beauty is that those men stayed Aramean, Israelite, Judean. in islam, they became something they were not, islam did not exist prior to Mohammad, need the archeological or literary proof otherwise. BTW, there is proof that many people worshipped 'allah' before Mohammad; many in his family already had been named for the pagan 'allah' prior to his 'revelations'

an interesting topic, but the seal of the prophets (saw) has nothing to do with birthmarks, it means the final Prophet, after which there will be no more.

the Quran is unchanged. it is a common argument used by anti-Islam sites to talk about Usman. it is impossible for the Quran to be changed. firstly, the Quran was fully memorised by thousands of the Prophets (saw) companions, first hand by the Prophet (saw) and hundreds of thousands of Muslims knew parts of the Quran. also the ENTIRE Qurans is recited every year by an Imam in front of thousands (at taraweh prayers). also Usman was a companion of the prophet (saw) and knew what the Quran was like.
then read the hadiths, they confirm that there were several versions, can you read arabic? there are parts mentioned in them, that do not appear in present quran, want to learn more?

and what about the Prophecies of a future Prophet (saw) coming down in the Bible? how do you explain them Randolfo?
if you ever read the Bible, you would know they do not refer to Mohammad, just wishful thinking

Dear Randolfo,

Would you trouble yourself with mentioning those hadiths!! :m:

But please, choose them out of the correct ones, not those labelled WEAK, REFUTED, or AHAD...... :)

OH.... very sorry, but you christians aren't acquainted with these terms, you don't use them with your texts, do you!! :D

Dear Randolfo,

Would you trouble yourself with mentioning those hadiths!! :
What? you want me to do all the work for you? use your browser's search engine, if you really can't find sources in a week, ask again or if you don't answer me, I'll post it for you

But please, choose them out of the correct ones, not those labelled WEAK,
so, what are you saying? muslims would lie about their prophet? they would make up lies about him? stories? I'm shocked, absolutly shocked!!!
REFUTED,
false prophet, false book, sorry old friend, all lies, here's a simple test for your quran, if it is from God, why is it out of order? why did men put it in largest sura to smallest sura order? why does it have Meccan & Medinan suras jumbled out of order? did allah not know what order he wanted to tell men his truth, by doing chronologically ordered suras? is allah absent-minded? has he got too many things on his mind, to bother with a short & sweet refutation of the Bible?
so pre-ocuppied, that he obviously forgets truth, history, physics & the name that God said would be His Memorial Name forever? "YHWH", Exodus 3:14
And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."' 15 Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: "The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.'
NKJV
from:
http://reluctant-messenger.com/Gods-sacred-name.htm
or AHAD......
'An hadith a day', I used my search engine for that, come on, you can too!

OH.... very sorry, but you christians aren't acquainted with these terms, you don't use them with your texts, do you!!
why should we?, we got the quran for that job; yes, weak, refuted, & AHAD (admittedly hilarious and distorted)
:D
:p
;)

I will not trouble my search engine, since you are the one who made the accusations, you are the on responsible to bring oyt proof....

And why are you surprised, aren't there christians who lie about Christ, I know one, your so called St. Paul!!

For your information a lot of people enter a lot of religions and try to deviate them for their own interest, not only in Islam, Jewish, And Christian religions too!!!

AHAD doesn't mean "an hadith a day" it means a hadith with only one sequence of narrators making it weak.

"You've got the Quran" surprised to hear it from you whose religion has no historic proof of most of its books, while ours has only!!

I'm surprised by your weak interpetation of your own book,
why does "I am who I am" mean YHWH, I'm really surprised that jews and christians use the term again and again..... it means I'm God and my name is God ( Elloheim ) as the hebrew text would put it!!

"the Quran's order" , when did we claim the Quran to be a history book, we didn't..... and for your information every surah has its own subject that has its own subject, it doesn't need to be organised which sura before the other , you can place them in any order you want!!

"the Quran's order" , when did we claim the Quran to be a history book, we didn't..... and for your information every surah has its own subject that has its own subject, it doesn't need to be organised which sura before the other , you can place them in any order you want!!
Huh? then how was it ever perfect? how did it come form heaven?

if it has the fingerprints of man, therefor it is a manmade object, no?

I'm surprised by your weak interpetation of your own book,
why does "I am who I am" mean YHWH, I'm really surprised that jews and christians use the term again and again.....
weak, its like changing God's name, to "Tom", because it means 'the God' in the belief system of the "Thums".

If "Yahweh" is God's name for ever, well then how long is that?
it means I'm God and my name is God ( Elloheim ) as the hebrew text would put it!!
" I'm God and my name is God", where did you get that? that name would "El-Shem-el" somewhere in it
from:
http://www.ahavta.org/name.htm
The Name Yahweh means: I Was - I Am - I Will Be. It answers to major attributes of God: The Eternal One / I Was - I Am - I Will Be; The Omnipresent One / I Was - I Am - I Will Be; The Almighty / I Was - I Am - I Will Be. It is used in scriptures referring to God as the Gracious and Merciful One, whereas Elohim is used when referring to God as the Creator who judges His creation. The two are often used together -- Yahweh Elohim, commonly replaced with Lord God.

I'm surprised by your weak interpetation of your own book,
why does "I am who I am" mean YHWH, I'm really surprised that jews and christians use the term again and again.....!!
we use it, because it IS God's Name, refered to as 'HaShem' in hebrew (The Name)

"the Quran's order" , when did we claim the Quran to be a history book, we didn't..... and for your information every surah has its own subject that has its own subject, it doesn't need to be organised which sura before the other , you can place them in any order you want!!

you obviously don't know perfect islam, the order was supposedly from allah, sent down from heaven to Mohammad, the present quran is an exact copy of the one enshrined in heaven by allah.

what? am I to teach you islam?
here, check these out & be amazed :D


http://www.quran.org/quran/
City of Light; The Path to the True Islam and (Submission) Islam ...
... help them find the faults they seek. Since the Quran is perfect, such
"faults" serve only to reveal the stupidity of God's enemies. ...
www.quran.org/quran/

http://www.quran-islam.org/160.html
Abrogation
... As is plainly clear from the above Quranic words, God asserts that the words of
the Quran are perfect, harbour no contradictions and cannot be abrogated. ...
www.quran-islam.org/160.html - 26k

http://media.isnet.org/off/XIslam/IslamOnline/Quran.html
Quran
... the original text up with modern language usage. The Quran is Perfect
in Literary Style, Grammatical Text, and Factual Information. ...
media.isnet.org/off/XIslam/IslamOnline/Quran.html - 13k

http://www.pearls.org/TheHolyBook/wholequran.html
In the whole of the Quran there is a perfect fluency
... Although the Quran came to judge of various, diverse cases and events, it displays
such a perfect order that it is as if it were the judgment delivered on a ...
www.pearls.org/TheHolyBook/wholequran.html - 70k


2 bad for muslims, that even if it were 'perfect', its still not true

if it has the fingerprints of man, therefor it is a manmade object, no?

fingerprints of man, they just put the suras together, each sura has its own organisation according to the subject!!
And really surprised to hear that from you, who wrote the gospels, who wrote Pauls letters....... please don't tell me Christ!!

you obviously don't know perfect islam, the order was supposedly from allah, sent down from heaven to Mohammad, the present quran is an exact copy of the one enshrined in heaven by allah

You obviously know little, I'm surprised you didn't reach the point where history mentions that Imam Ali placed a different organisation of the Quran's suras......... and nobody is more knowing than him in the Islam except the prophet!!



2 bad for muslims, that even if it were 'perfect', its still not true

I'm still waiting for those hadiths!! :D

Dear Randolfo,

Would you trouble yourself with mentioning those hadiths!! :m:

But please, choose them out of the correct ones, not those labelled WEAK, REFUTED, or AHAD...... :)

how convient, muslims control all the avenues of debate, there is a refutation there, about self-referents.

as to hadiths, here goes
from:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/061.sbt.html

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were):

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty ...' (9.128-129)

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 512:

Narrated Al-Bara:

There was revealed: 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah.' (4.95)

The Prophet said, "Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the inkpot and the scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the ink pot)."' Then he said, "Write: 'Not equal are those Believers who sit..", and at that time 'Amr bin Um Maktum, the blind man was sitting behind the Prophet . He said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is your order For me (as regards the above Verse) as I am a blind man?" So, instead of the above Verse, the following Verse was revealed:

'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame etc.) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah.' (4.95)

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 513:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:

Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel recited the Qur'an to me in one way. Then I requested him (to read it in another way), and continued asking him to recite it in other ways, and he recited it in several ways till he ultimately recited it in seven different ways."

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 514:
Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle),

"I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)."

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 515:

Narrated Yusuf bin Mahk:

While I was with Aisha, the mother of the Believers, a person from Iraq came and asked, "What type of shroud is the best?" 'Aisha said, "May Allah be merciful to you! What does it matter?" He said, "O mother of the Believers! Show me (the copy of) your Qur'an," She said, "Why?" He said, "In order to compile and arrange the Qur'an according to it, for people recite it with its Suras not in proper order." 'Aisha said, "What does it matter which part of it you read first? (Be informed) that the first thing that was revealed thereof was a Sura from Al-Mufassal, and in it was mentioned Paradise and the Fire. When the people embraced Islam, the Verses regarding legal and illegal things were revealed. If the first thing to be revealed was: 'Do not drink alcoholic drinks.' people would have said, 'We will never leave alcoholic drinks,' and if there had been revealed, 'Do not commit illegal sexual intercourse, 'they would have said, 'We will never give up illegal sexual intercourse.' While I was a young girl of playing age, the following Verse was revealed in Mecca to Muhammad: 'Nay! But the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and more bitter.' (54.46) Sura Al-Baqara (The Cow) and Surat An-Nisa (The Women) were revealed while I was with him." Then 'Aisha took out the copy of the Qur'an for the man and dictated to him the Verses of the Suras (in their proper order) .

I especially like the 7 versions part, so much for perfect memory :D

I will not trouble my search engine, since you are the one who made the accusations, you are the on responsible to bring oyt proof....
so now that I did, will you at least explore on your own? or does the thought that you may discover something troubling, trouble you?

AHAD doesn't mean "an hadith a day"the initials do, several sites used that acronym, they did not explain that itwas an arabic word though

AHAD doesn't mean "an hadith a day" it means a hadith with only one sequence of narrators making it weak.I like that, using real words as acronyms, thanks, my search engine didn't pull up a site on the first page that explained the pun, clever

from:
http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/Gilchrist/Vol1/6a.html
Unfortunately wholesale fabrication of Hadith during the early days made it difficult for genuine scholars to distinguish the true from the false, but eventually six major collections were recognised as authoritative works of Hadith containing, for the most part, true records. The divisions of Hadith took many forms. Where traditions were reported by a large number of companions, they became known as mutawatir, that is, "continuous", meaning that they were successively reported by many authorities.

The Mutawatir are the traditions which have been transmitted throughout the first three generations of the Muslims by such a large number of transmitters as cannot be reasonably expected to agree on a falsehood. (Siddiqi, Hadith Literature, p.193).

Such traditions are "very few in number and hardly ever touch on legal matters" (Juynboll, The Authenticity of the Tradition Literature, p. 11 ). The second coming of Jesus is attested by seventy traditions from different sources and it is a typical non-juristic hadith unanimously recognised. The next form of Hadith are known as mashur.

Mashur. - A tradition which in every age has been considered genuine by some learned Doctor. This is the term generally used for traditions which were at first recorded by a few individuals but afterwards became generally known. (Hughes, Notes on Muhammadanism, p.33).

Lastly, traditions transmitted by only one or two transmitters are known as ahad, that is, "isolated", from the Arabic root for "one". These divisions are broken up into many other detailed sub-divisions but all rely either on the number of authorities for the tradition or on the nature of their origin. The latter, for example, are divided into musnad, traditions traced back to Muhammad himself, mauquf, those only going back to his companions, and maqtu, those derived from his Successors. A tradition from a Successor directly traced to Muhammad is known as mursal. Naturally those going back to Muhammad himself are considered more genuine.

Another form of dividing the Hadith into degrees of reliability is that which analyses defects in the reporters of traditions or in the textual content of the traditions themselves. Each tradition begins with a list of its chain of reporters, known as its isnad, its "support", and concludes with its content, its matn. There are three classes in this case as well.

These three classes are: (i) the Sahih or Genuine; (ii) the Hasan or the Fair; and (iii) the Da'if or the Weak. (Siddiqi, Hadith Literature, p.192).

Once again there are a number of sub-divisions. The sahih and hasan traditions are graded as maqbul (acceptable) while the da'if are treated with reserve. Hadith known to be fabricated are known as mardud (rejected).


"You've got the Quran" surprised to hear it from you whose religion has no historic proof of most of its books, while ours has only!!only what? the quran has a history, mostly hadiths that say it was put together from several sources, not allah, but Mohammad & his followers

you obviously don't know perfect islam, the order was supposedly from allah, sent down from heaven to Mohammad, the present quran is an exact copy of the one enshrined in heaven by allah.



lol and you know the perfect Islam.lol :D Accept Islam now and save ur self other wise hell is waiting for you. Christ will not save ur ass. ;)

lol and you know the perfect Islam.lol ;)why yes I do, its called christianity
I know alot of your legends, tell us, where is the original quran that allah transmitted, located?

Accept Islam now and save ur self other wise hell is waiting for you. Christ will not save ur ass. thanks for the invitation, but why would I want to go to the hell fire with Mohammad? poor guy was decieved by satan one too many times, you don't think surah 53 was the only one corrupted by him? sorry, the allah is the greatest deciever, it says so in the quran

from:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/3/
3:54 And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.