http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-07-25-muslim-special-treatment-from-schools_N.htm

Well that is a little different from the 'special treatment' non-Muslims get in a Muslim country.

ha ha ah

Note- jus basing that on what i read and see in the news.:p

Wow, suddenly Christians have flipped on the idea that students can pray in school?

I don't think there should be any prayers or religious concessions in school, regardless of what faith is at stake. But I think what people are reacting to in this story is the fact that Christianity, which like it or not is the bedrock of our nation and cultural identity, has been driven out of the schools, based on a liberal interpretation of the Establishment Clause. Now, the same people who excised Christianity are allowing Islam in? That's not exactly consistent, is it?

I don't think there should be any prayers or religious concessions in school, regardless of what faith is at stake. But I think what people are reacting to in this story is the fact that Christianity, which like it or not is the bedrock of our nation and cultural identity, has been driven out of the schools, based on a liberal interpretation of the Establishment Clause. Now, the same people who excised Christianity are allowing Islam in? That's not exactly consistent, is it?



Thomas Jefferson as President of the United States.The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."[4]

Another early user of the term was James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights, who often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state." [5] "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States." [6] This attitude is further reflected in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, originally authored by Thomas Jefferson, but championed by Madison, and guaranteeing that no one may be compelled to finance any religion or denomination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seperation_of_church_and_state

For starters, I've already said I don't support religion in the schools. Let me reiterate that here.

Secondly, you are aware, I assume, that letters between the Founders cannot be used to prove or disprove the so-called Establishment Clause in the Constitution, which was a legal document written and ratified by a group of men, not just Jefferson and Madison. Presumably, some of those men would interpret the clause differently, which is why the issue went to court and had to be interpretted by judges. That interpretation has changed only recently to give the secularists the exorcism they so crave...

I'm sure you're also aware that religion — specifically the Christian religion — is present in nearly every level of American government?

jesus don't let them pray in our schools don't let them were anything religous i mean it's only the same treatent us none muslims are getting

Now, the same people who excised Christianity are allowing Islam in? That's not exactly consistent, is it?

Can you really not tell the difference?

That schools cannot force children to pray does not mean children are not allowed to pray. I don't think it's exactly consistent that while people want Muslims to integrate, many also want to alienate them. How is that going to work out? Oh, right, right. Muslims can be equal when they give up their right to be Muslims.

Sorry, forgot about that for a moment.

If the Christian Religion can't be in the Schools because of the Establishment Clause, then the same applies to the Moslem Religion.

Either all can pray or none can pray, no special privilege.

jesus don't let them pray in our schools don't let them were anything religous i mean it's only the same treatent us none muslims are getting

I call BS. Christian students can still wear crosses, can still wear Jesus t-shirts, and can still pray in school.

Can people really not tell the difference between forcing children to pray and allowing children to pray?

If the Christian Religion can't be in the Schools because of the Establishment Clause, then the same applies to the Moslem Religion.

Either all can pray or none can pray, no special privilege.

One more time, just because the answer is becoming more and more clear as we go:

Can people really not tell the difference?

Can you really not tell the difference?

That schools cannot force children to pray does not mean children are not allowed to pray. I don't think it's exactly consistent that while people want Muslims to integrate, many also want to alienate them. How is that going to work out? Oh, right, right. Muslims can be equal when they give up their right to be Muslims.

Sorry, forgot about that for a moment.


Establishment Clause, the schools are providing support for the Islamic Religion, they are providing special rooms, and facilities that support the Moslem Faith, Moslems can be equal, and they can pray, but the school can't provide special facilities to help them in their religious practices, they will not allow a Chapel in a Public School, so what are they doing, allowing Foot Bathes, Special Schedules, and Rooms for the practice of the Moslem Religion?

Not allowed for Christians/ Not allowed for Moslems.

"The whole issue is to provide for a religious foundation for those who are observant while respecting separation of church and state," says Salam Al-Marayati, executive director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, based in Los Angeles. Many schools accommodate the Christian and Jewish sabbaths and allow Jewish students to not take tests on religious holidays, he says.

Barry Lynn, of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, says however that the law is murky on these expressions of faith. And the American Civil Liberties Union says overt religious symbols like crucifixes are not legal, but whether Muslim foot baths and prayer rugs fall into that category is not clear.

"That's a difficult one, and it's right on the edge," says Jeremy Gunn, director of the ACLU program on freedom of religion and belief in Washington, D.C. (USAToday.com (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-07-25-muslim-special-treatment-from-schools_N.htm))

There are chapels and religious facilities for Christians and Jews at public colleges. That Christians protested the change of terms from "Christmas" and "Easter" breaks to "winter" or "holiday" and "spring" breaks doesn't change the fact that the school calendar is crafted to accommodate Christians.

Would you accept, instead, what would seem a disruptive habit of allowing students to throw down their rugs in the classroom and pray during class?

The great concern of religious establishment in government is that it excludes citizens who are guaranteed equal protection under the law. Take the crucifix example in the article. Not only would a crucifix violate Muslims, Jews, and atheists, but it would also alienate a good number of Christians who view the crucifix as a graven image or idol.

Just because so many Christians treat their faith as primarily political, and not symbolic or spiritual, does not mean the rest of American society must kneel before the Christian will.

We return to the central problem of the anti-Muslim argument: people demand that Muslims integrate peacefully into society while simultaneously seeking to alienate them. In the end, the only thing that will satisfy this anti-Muslim crowd will be that Muslims cease to be Muslims. Just because American Christians are widely apostate doesn't mean people of other faiths should be required to follow suit.

I call BS. Christian students can still wear crosses, can still wear Jesus t-shirts, and can still pray in school.

Can people really not tell the difference between forcing children to pray and allowing children to pray?

Actually the article is about funding separate prayer rooms and footwashing station at several universities; this isn't related to forced prayer, but rather priviledge.

I agree, GeoffP, but there are two points that compelled me to not retract or correct that comment:

• The article did make mention of schools that instituted an additional recess period to accommodate Muslim prayer.

• The repeated comparisons in this topic to the "removal" of Christianity and school-prayer issues.

Originally written by Thomas Jefferson (posted by Ganymede)
..."I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."...

This simply means that the government should make no laws related to religion. So if one private school wants to allow prayer, and another private school does not, they're both within their rights to do so. In the instance of public schools, students can participate in any legal religious activity (that is, legal with regard to other laws like human sacrifices, consuming controlled substances, etc.).

Or do I misunderstand the situation? I think I've got it, perhaps I just wrote it incorrectly.

Barry Lynn, of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, says however that the law is murky on these expressions of faith. And the American Civil Liberties Union says overt religious symbols like crucifixes are not legal, but whether Muslim foot baths and prayer rugs fall into that category is not clear.


That shows that state of education in U.S.

:bugeye:

In telin u man, all u got to do is show up. Every kid in school need to do what the Muslims do and pray five times a day 'cause they aint learnin nothin anyway.

:D

In telin u man, all u got to do is show up. Every kid in school need to do what the Muslims do and pray five times a day 'cause they aint learnin nothin anyway.

Interesting point. It reminds me of a bit I read not too long ago about Christian outreach in Nigeria. They have a campaign among the poor called PUSH: "Pray Until Something Happens".

They're still waiting, of course, for God to fulfill those prayers. But it's better than nothing. Isn't it?

Interesting point. It reminds me of a bit I read not too long ago about Christian outreach in Nigeria. They have a campaign among the poor called PUSH: "Pray Until Something Happens".

They're still waiting, of course, for God to fulfill those prayers. But it's better than nothing. Isn't it?

At leat someone cares enough to sweat their balls off with them.;)

Interesting point. It reminds me of a bit I read not too long ago about Christian outreach in Nigeria. They have a campaign among the poor called PUSH: "Pray Until Something Happens".

They're still waiting, of course, for God to fulfill those prayers. But it's better than nothing. Isn't it?

Sure it is better than nothing, which is what they are getting from you i am sure. At least someone cares enough to sweat their balls off with them.

Interesting point. It reminds me of a bit I read not too long ago about Christian outreach in Nigeria. They have a campaign among the poor called PUSH: "Pray Until Something Happens".

They're still waiting, of course, for God to fulfill those prayers. But it's better than nothing. Isn't it?

Sure it is better than nothing, but isnt that what they are getting form YOU? At least someone cares enough to sweat their balls off with them.

Interesting point. It reminds me of a bit I read not too long ago about Christian outreach in Nigeria. They have a campaign among the poor called PUSH: "Pray Until Something Happens".

They're still waiting, of course, for God to fulfill those prayers. But it's better than nothing. Isn't it?

Sure it is better than nothing, but isnt that what they are getting form YOU? At least someone cares enough to sweat their balls off with them. Guess your anti-hope too?

Interesting point. It reminds me of a bit I read not too long ago about Christian outreach in Nigeria. They have a campaign among the poor called PUSH: "Pray Until Something Happens".

They're still waiting, of course, for God to fulfill those prayers. But it's better than nothing. Isn't it?

Sure it is better than nothing, but isnt that what they are getting form YOU? At least someone cares enough to sweat their balls off with them. And every other response to me seems like another Christian bash. It is not like i am a churchgoer or bible thumper so you are just wasting time and talking nonsense.

At leat someone cares enough to sweat their balls off with them.;)

Sure it is better than nothing, which is what they are getting from you i am sure. At least someone cares enough to sweat their balls off with them.

Sure it is better than nothing, but isnt that what they are getting form YOU? At least someone cares enough to sweat their balls off with them.

Sure it is better than nothing, but isnt that what they are getting form YOU? At least someone cares enough to sweat their balls off with them. Guess your anti-hope too?

Sure it is better than nothing, but isnt that what they are getting form YOU? At least someone cares enough to sweat their balls off with them. And every other response to me seems like another Christian bash. It is not like i am a churchgoer or bible thumper so you are just wasting time and talking nonsense.

Hah! The rage intensifies! RAAAGE!

Oh, it's better than nothing, but they would be better off with tools instead of talk.

"Daniel Pipes, founder of the Middle East Forum, a conservative think tank, sees the requests as part of a movement to force the public to acquiesce to Islamic law.

"The goal of Islamists is the application of Islamic law," Pipes says."

Too bad, most people go to universities to get an education, not to try and shove their god fantasies down everyones throat.

Soon, we'll be seeing sacrificial alters in the students lounges.

I agree, GeoffP, but there are two points that compelled me to not retract or correct that comment:

• The article did make mention of schools that instituted an additional recess period to accommodate Muslim prayer.

• The repeated comparisons in this topic to the "removal" of Christianity and school-prayer issues.

Agreed, generally. I just would like a clear and complete separation of church and state, at least in terms of funding.

Guess your anti-hope too?

Actually, I would hope that my American neighbors are smarter than that string of posts you put up.

When you're ready to go to the University of Washington, or Oregon, or any other public school and tear down the Christian chapels, let me know, and I will reconsider the equality of providing facilities for prayer.

I think you'll find that in a lot of cases these chapels are paid for by local Christian denominations, rather than funding being expected from the university.

Actually, I would hope that my American neighbors are smarter than that string of posts you put up.

When you're ready to go to the University of Washington, or Oregon, or any other public school and tear down the Christian chapels, let me know, and I will reconsider the equality of providing facilities for prayer.

Ah a moment please.... The Chapels of the University of Washington and the University of Oregon are separate and apart from the Academic Buildings, and no time is set aside specifically for Christian students to attend religious prayer services during the school week, services are on Sunday, Now in these cases the Universities are making space available in the Academic Buildings for foot baths, and prayer rooms, and adjusting the schedule around the Five Prayer time a day of the Moslem Ritual, that is not allowed under the present interpretation of the establishment clause, as enforced by the Liberals and the ACLU.

Hah! The rage intensifies! RAAAGE!

Oh, it's better than nothing, but they would be better off with tools instead of talk.

aaahhhhh ha ha ha/ Thats too funny.
aaahhhhh ha ha ha/ Thats too funny.
aaahhhhh ha ha ha/ Thats too funny.

Buff:

And each component you list will likely be considered in the courts. What I primarily object to is the idea that since we can't make public schools into Christian institutions, Muslims shouldn't be accommodated at all. It makes no sense.

Buff:

And each component you list will likely be considered in the courts. What I primarily object to is the idea that since we can't make public schools into Christian institutions, Muslims shouldn't be accommodated at all. It makes no sense.

We are not trying to make public schools into Christians institutions, what I object to is the fact that there is no accommodation of the Christian Religion, so their should be no accommodation for the Moslem Religion either, just try and give a Christian Invocation at a public school, go through a public school in December, and see if Christ is still in Christmas?, in fact see how many schools even call it Christmas?

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/06/public_official_to_call_for_re.php

Public official to call for revamped policy on Christmas decorations in New York City


A city councilman from New York City is challenging that city's policy that allows and encourages Muslim, Jewish and secular decorations in public schools during Christmas, but does not permit Christian symbols. Councilman Tony Avella will unveil a resolution this weekend that would change public school policy regarding the display of Christmas decorations.

In the past, New York City schools have allowed a Menorah, the Star and Crescent, and an evergreen tree to be displayed. However, officials have said a crèche, or nativity scene, is not allowed. Brian Rooney, an attorney with the Thomas More Law Center, says the case is a clear example of hostility toward religion -- and the Constitution, specifically the First Amendment, prohibits that, he asserts.

He contrasts that constitutionally guaranteed right with the stipulations outlined in the city policy. "It allows for other religious symbols, to include the Menorah and the Star and Crescent," the attorney explains. "It specifically disallows for a Christian symbol and only allows for a secular symbol, which does not signify Christmas at all."

Rooney believes that the nativity scene is the proper image that signifies Christmas, as the birth of a historical, religious figure: Jesus Christ.

"And that's the symbol that we as Christians want to be represented by, and not [by] some evergreen tree. We're not celebrating the birth of an evergreen tree," he states. "It's time that bureaucrats in the Department of Education and the city realize that, and the will of the people is going to be shown."

Avella's resolution was prompted by the refusal earlier this year of the U.S. Supreme Court to hear the case. Rooney expects the resolution to be adopted in time for this year's Christmas season.

Religious Expression in the Public Schools
In northern California, a school in Sacramento banned Christmas ... correct police by agreeing to remove Christian songs from the Christmas Concert, ...
http://www.catholicleague.org/research/publicschools.htm

WorldNetDaily: Grinches working overtime in schools
Christian performers barred from city event ... Christmas carols banned, but Hanukkah songs OK ... Christmas music banned, then unbanned from bus ...
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47993

John Leo
The South Orange/Maplewood, N.J., school district banned religious Christmas songs, even in instrumental versions. In Florida, an elementary school concert ...
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/leo121304.asp

Dartmouth Grinches Steal Christmas
This is not the first time Dartmouth has banned Christmas festivities. ... Christian songs at a Christmas tree lighting were "inconsistent with having the ...
http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/1999/january_1999_2.html

jesus why do muslims just keep complaining ?

Religious Expression in the Public Schools
In northern California, a school in Sacramento banned Christmas ... correct police by agreeing to remove Christian songs from the Christmas Concert, ...
http://www.catholicleague.org/research/publicschools.htm

WorldNetDaily: Grinches working overtime in schools
Christian performers barred from city event ... Christmas carols banned, but Hanukkah songs OK ... Christmas music banned, then unbanned from bus ...
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47993

John Leo
The South Orange/Maplewood, N.J., school district banned religious Christmas songs, even in instrumental versions. In Florida, an elementary school concert ...
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/leo121304.asp

Dartmouth Grinches Steal Christmas
This is not the first time Dartmouth has banned Christmas festivities. ... Christian songs at a Christmas tree lighting were "inconsistent with having the ...
http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/1999/january_1999_2.html

Was this sanctioned by the Gestapo Civil Liberties Union? Hitler youth?

George Orwell wrote a good book about stuff like this.

Do Iranian Muslim farmers and construction laborers and so forth wash their feet five times a day during the working hours to pray ? The foot baths seem like the real problem - prayer has always been allowed, it's just easier for Christians and Jews to actually do, apparently.

It seems like these accomodations are hit and miss, and depend on specific Islamic sectarian stuff. Islam is going to have to make some adjustments of its own, here.

When I was in elementary school, we took breaks for spiritual refreshment every so often - the younger kids even unrolled special mats on the floor, and took their shoes off. We could pray if we wanted to, as long as we didn't make noise.

And we never went to school on Sunday.