Well, our wonderful Supreme Court has deceided to even ban student-led prayers at extracurricular events (Texas school district invocation before high school football games).

It seems the court believes that a student, with a microphone in hand, and on campus, magically becomes an agent of the state when s/he recites a brief prayer before a football game.

If it was a teacher or principal, I could see the issue. Also, if the prayer was so narrowly denominational, as to offend others.

But a general prayer to God?

Since when do we check our constitutional rights to free speech, religious affiliation and peaceable gathering, when we set foot on school property?

And FYI, the seperation of church and state issue concerns the government setting up and administering a religion; not trampling the rights of those that want to express their chosen religion in a public forumn.

And why are people so darn afraid and adament about keeping prayer out of schools? Does it do that much damage?.

Heaven forbid we have kids in school that want to know and follow a loving God. That would be just awful :(

------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

school prayer is conciderd offenceive twords others of different beielifs, though i beilieve ethat if one wishes to pray, that they are permited to do so. but if a school desides to, that shouldnt be

------------------
when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

Originally posted by dexter:
school prayer is conciderd offenceive twords others of different beielifs, though i beilieve ethat if one wishes to pray, that they are permited to do so. but if a school desides to, that shouldnt be



How's the remedial spelling class coming along? :) :)


------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

I'm still wondering what, specifically is wrong with the Court's decision. I would assume, Pashley--if I may--that you're hardly surprised there. ;)

Would a Christian parent appreciate a pre-game, "voluntary" prayer session in which Muslim prayers were broadcast over the whole of a publicly-financed stadium?

Would, to split finer hairs, a Southern Baptist appreciate having to endure a Hail Mary? If the kids want, why not pray a whole rosary before the game?

Specifically, Pash, what's at issue for me is the use of the PA system and the football stadium; the whole process requires some sort of endorsement from the school, and that's an important factor in this. Eugene, Oregon has a lit cross atop Skinner Butte, placed in a public park; every couple of years the town has a small fit about whether to allow other religious displays on public property or take down the lit cross.

(As a strange and only barely-relevant note ... were it not for the courts holding such a strict line--in this case a liberal line--against the infiltration of religious sentiment in the public process, it would be against the law for our friend Flash to use a public water fountain in Springfield, which is Eugene's most immediate neighbor.)

What happens if one religious group gets upset and disrespectful about another group's opportunity to pray publicly over the PA system--technically, at the first Coke bottle thrown, we've got a civil rights crime on our hands. These issues, too, are important to resolve.

I would not argue that it's simply easier to keep religion out of the mix; certainly it seems so except for the members of one particular philosophy, who complicate it for the rest of us ;)

But I think it's vital to keep our religion and our public administration that far separated. Whereas, on the one hand, I certainly don't look forward to a Catholic prayer, a Protestant prayer, a Jewish, Muslim, and Wiccan prayer, accompanied, of course, by wisdom from the libraries of local atheists (hey, they were happy to not be a "religion", but even at this board, some people insist on that standard, so I thought I'd mention it) ... up here, we'd have to ring a bell and observe total silence for the children of our growing Buddhist population ....

Anyway--while I don't look forward to the day the prayers are longer than the game, I just don't think it's right. Even at Catholic school they didn't force me to pray, but there sure as hell wasn't anywhere to go when prayers and, truly, some utterly stupid petitions to God, were broadcast over the whole campus. I chose to be there, so hey, no real problem. But if I was down the street at one of the public schools, there would be no way I would have put up with a half-hour of student-organized prayer broadcast over the PA every morning; and I certainly would resent having to sit through it before every football or basketball game. Hell, my track coach knew better than to have a team prayer before each meet--again, at a private Catholic school; he just thought it was bad for team morale to put the less Christian-inclined of us through it. There's probably something there about his own perception of God, as well as his perception of how the kids saw God, but the fact is that even at good ol' Saint Bell, the people of faith who were the powers-that-were knew that it was a bad idea to bandy about prayer like that--I only recall ever hearing public prayers at football games twice, once to irritate our public-school rival at our home field, and again when the Archbishop was visiting for an afternoon and evening.

Besides, and, quite frankly, I thought prayer was supposed to be a private thing shared among the participating faithful. Didn't Christ have a few words about standing up and publicly proclaiming your faith for all to see?

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Pashley,

We are watching another freedom slip thru our fingers before our very eyes. If this sticks there will soon be penalties for disobeying this decision. Jail time for public prayer? In my school days it was the posting of the 10 Commandments in the school hallway. It was not a big deal to me because alot of other stuff was going on and it didn't elicit more than a grumble from the adults around me.

The big bad Christians, the ones that make every one else feel uncomfortable by being intolerant of bad things and praying to a silly little ole God who really isn't listening... The Christian types that are told by opposing forces that they should be a little more tolerant of others, now, risk going to jail on federal charges because of people types who have demanded more tolerance of others.

Liberty does not come cheap. Are we going to stand up and fight this or just let another one bite the dust...cause we got stuff to do and don't have time to mess with this right now. (This comment is for USA peoples only.)

PS Pashley: Your loving GOD allowed Job's entire family to get killed, except his wife, to show Satan his loyalty to God. He allowed most of Jesus's devoted 12 to be executed...so be careful how you advertise our "loving" GOD.

To Tiassa:

For all the nasty things that have happened in this country: slavery, indian land confiscation, buffalo slaughters,this land was dedicated to God by C. Columbus as pompous as he was. The Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, all written by ordinary men with vices and flaws came up with truly unique documents inspired by the Judeao Christian God. This country came into being on a Christian Foundation in a way never seen anywhere in the world in modern times. I submit this country has prospered because of this. People that were not Christian but a part of this country reaped the benefits of harvests they did not sow and that is true today. The founders of this country gave of their lives and fortunes, and they really did, to pass on to us a heritige we have forgotton. It is time we remembered our roots and let those who have paid the dues run the show and let everybody else stand on the sidelines. You really don't think we are loosing anything here...

Dexter:
You need to find a new source for reading materials. I'm really concerned about you.

If the teams and fans are so dedicated to praying, why not do it as their bible instructs, in private? Nobody gives a public prayer before finals, why should one be given before a football game? If it's the idea of community at stake, let the faithful gather at their churches to pray, then go to the game.

I spent a few years in small town America. The state of Arizona at the time had an official "minute of prayer" each morning. Being a firm believer in the separation of church and state, I objected to the practice. Of course, I was branded an outcast, but I refused to be cajoled into allowing it to be forced on me. It didn't take long before it had been officially changed to a mandatory "minute of silence". I wan't concerned about what people did during that minute. If they wanted to pray, go for it. But to have prayer forced onto me went way over the line. I made a lot of enemies at first, but things mellowed out.

Regarding the use of state equipment for prayer before football games or any other school event, I believe it should not be allowed at public schools. Even a non-denominational prayer violates the rights of atheists. The public school system is state property, and that includes the sports field and any facilities rented or otherwise employed for school functions.

As I said, there is no law against the faithful gathering at their churches or living rooms before the game for a spiritual pep rally and then going to the game.

(Or is it more important that they be seen praying?)

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

I don't believe for a minute that folks that denounce school prayer are doing so for the sake of upholding the Constitution.

They are doing it because they don't want God in their lives. "Don't remind me of Him!" "He doesn't exist" and other forms of denial.

What harm does it do, to have a non-denominational prayer said before a football game? Does it really hurt you emotionally, Mr. Atheist?

No, we should ban God entirely from public view. Churchs must be constructed with a non-offending form, lest we somehow "offend" a Muslim that might walk by. The ACLU will want to get in on this.

No, we definitely don't want God in the schools, lest those kids get some respect for a higher authority, and learn to respect your neighbor. No, no, can't have that.
(Not that the problems in schools have gone up since our wonderful Madelyn Murray O'Hair got prayers banned from schools; killing with assault weapons has always happened in schools :))

Never mind this country is composed of 86.2% Christians.
(Source:http://www.adherents.com/)

Thanks for letting me vent. :)


------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

If the KKK can erect a cross in town square at Christmas time, then I think it's only fair to say that people should be able to pray in public any time they want to. I think it's fair to say they should a lot more often! Making an entire football stadium listen to a specific prayer? Eh, that's kinda lame. If the kids want to pray, then let them pray amongst themselves. If the people in the stands want to pray, then let them pray amonst themselves. Whether the prayer is amplified with a PA is irrelevant isn't it? And you know, with as many people who take religion and twist the hell out of it nowadays, I'd rather not have my child taught spirituality in a school. Aren't parents responsible for anything anymore except earning a buck?

And lots of people don't know this, but our country was founded by christians who were deeply spiritual people. Most of the early historical writings show that too. They used to have holy-spirit filled prayer meetings on the floor of the house and senate. I'm talking like hours of prayer. Look what they accomplished. If they could see us now.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 21, 2000).]

Originally posted by Lori:

And lots of people don't know this, but our country was founded by christians who were deeply spiritual people. Most of the early historical writings show that too. They used to have holy-spirit filled prayer meetings on the floor of the house and senate. I'm talking like hours of prayer. Look what they accomplished. If they could see us now.



Yeah, and don't forget the other hard-core seperations, like "In God we Trust" on our money, public officials and court rooms swearing in on a Bible, a chaplain in the US Congress, Arlington cemetary, to name a few.

------------------
"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley

Pash

They are doing it because they don't want God in their lives. "Don't remind me of Him!" "He doesn't exist" and other forms of denial.

I'm curious if you ever get tired of telling other people what they think. If you're making deeper psychological assertions about their hidden state of mind, I only advise against such practices unless one is willing to spend much time with the soul mirror focused on their own self. At the level you're assuming for other people, one might assume of you that you have what religion you do because you can't stand how impotent you feel in the world, and thus reinforce yourself by subscribing to "God" and believing that He endows you with His strength.

I reiterate that this is if I apply the level of assumption you're undertaking on people's behalf.

But then again, Pash ... if you're bitter because your statistical majority doesn't get its way, move to Europe. There are plenty of post-theocratic states around the world willing to exclude portions of its own citizenry by taking an official church. I think the only time that "America, Love it or Leave it" is valid is when "loving it" is interpreted as endowing one to hold dominion over others. Such majority-centered thinking has, historically, led to such noble, "Christian" enterprises as Plantation Theory (Ireland) and Manifest Destiny (United States) in which majorities would, in the face of comparable numbers, rely on the old method of simply ignoring the fact that a portion of humanity exists at all.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Lori--

I wanted to take you up on two points :D

* We've discussed, in the past, the so-called "sins" of Christianity; again, the Crusades, Inquisitions, and various atrocities against humanity alleged to be God's will. We've argued loudly over this aspect; if we hold up what people have accomplished, as Pashley has noted of your 6/21 post, are we only restricting ourselves to the positive? In that case, is it an idea for consideration or simple propaganda? I mean, of those Christians, how many took part in the God-willed destruction of indigenous culture? I would remind you that diaries, journals, and other historical source documents demonstrate that it was considered "unchristian" to teach your slaves to read.

* Whether the prayer is amplified on the PA is, actually, important, in my opinion, because it constitutes an official endorsement by the school. The PA, the stadium, and the electricity fostering such prayers are publicly-financed. To this end, I would say, follow any critical, fundamental precedent through time, and watch where it comes up. I read an article about a year and half ago in which a man sued San Diego's Qualcomm (then Jack Murphy) Stadium over restrooms; women were entering the mens' rooms to use the facility--not a big deal except that they were sexually harassing men using urinals and generally conducting themselves in a manner that would be regarded as felonious were it men in a ladies' room. All else aside, the notion of "separate but equal" suddenly came up, which surprised the heck out of me. Who would have thought that the late 1990's would see a revisitation of Plessy v. Ferguson? What I'm after here is that the incredibly minute detail of praying over a publicly financed system is one that actually could be cited as precedent, especially if the verdict runs opposite judicial trends. But that, long-winded as it might seem--is the simple reason the PA system is significant.

Let me note that we've been through the "sins of the past" before; I'm only bringing it up here because such arguments as you have offered to the positive aspect of Christian history in the United States have not, in the past, been acceptable to you. Otherwise, I hear you. And I agree. But before we bring a Jefferson or a Senator Brooks to your defense, we might consider whether the rest of that particular historical figure's idea experiences any harmony with our own.

thanx,
Tiassa ;)

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Cable Man--

(Welcome to Exosci :D )
The Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, all written by ordinary men with vices and flaws came up with truly unique documents inspired by the Judeao Christian God. This country came into being on a Christian Foundation in a way never seen anywhere in the world in modern times.

My gut reaction here is that this is the very same thing I heard in the 1980's when Christian conservatives decried literary and musical expression as wrong. It is the very same idea I heard when Bush was pushing school prayer. It is the very same idea I hear when a modern Christian in the media circus is challenged on diversity issues.

Lori and I have exchanged vicious rounds in the past over what's fair game in Christian history; the "Christian Foundation" of this nation is largely a history of fundamental hatred. You mentioned the "nasty things" ... like biological warfare (smallpox in blankets, traded with deliberate malice), and other ideas that were executed with a clean Christian conscience.

So maybe it worked out well for you. There's a lot of people it didn't work out for, and there's a lot of people who happen to have been Christians who made sure that it didn't work out for certain people.

According to American Christian heritage, it's sinful to teach black slaves to read. According to American Christian heritage, it is one's Christian duty to abduct indigenous children and raise them in a white community as a desperate attempt to save souls. The crimes of Anne Hutchinson? Seeing through a minister's ego. Of course much of Christian history has contributed to human benefit; human benefit seems to be the central gist of the religion. But there's no positive trend. Throw enough cards at the hat and some of them will go in.

It is time we remembered our roots and let those who have paid the dues run the show and let everybody else stand on the sidelines.

That's dangerously close to destroying the conditions that allow you to exist. The best examples I can think of are American Communists, whose measures would create conditions by which an unempowered Communist minority could not survive. Perhaps the fundamentalists who stand up in Library meetings and demand their First Amendment right so that they can tell others to shut up. Any bleeding-heart liberal will tell you that "the show" is designed to ensure that a healthy portion of the population cannot "pay dues". If you're reaching for the dues of your Christian heritage, there's a lot of numbers to be called before yours.

However, of the dues-paying people, should we include the thousands of imported Chinese workers who built our roads and railroads in the West? How about the forty acres and a mule promised our freed slaves? Or the ultimate price given? 95% of the indigenous population and an entire continent sacked for the "charity" you now demand returns on?

But you're right ... the country prospered because of its "Christian foundation". So much so that it blindly prospered right atop what was here in the first place. It's so Vogon I can't quite express it, but then again, the Vogon Model was fashioned after the Christian Foundation and reflects the massive benefit received by everyone other than the Vogons. (cf.--Adams, Douglas. The Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy)

Thanx much,
Tiassa :p

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Originally posted by tiassa:


I'm curious if you ever get tired of telling other people what they think. If you're making deeper psychological assertions about their hidden state of mind, I only advise against such practices unless one is willing to spend much time with the soul mirror focused on their own self.



Ouch!

Hey, it's obvious, at least to me, what the deal is. Seems to have hit home with you too :)

------------------
"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley

Pashley,

Let me put it this way. How about at a football rally a Witch performs a ritual over the PA system before a game INSTEAD of a Christian-type prayer. Would you think it is good she is teaching the students about the God and Goddess, higher authority and all that? Or would you feel at least left out, if not outright offended and angered by such a thing? What about Satanists? Should they be allowed to pray to Satan before a game over the PA? Do you want to listen to that?

The problem is not about "not letting God into the schools" the problem is this: Which God??? I am not Christian, and having to sit through a Christian prayer over the PA while waiting for a football game would bore me senseless, and quite possibly offend me.

As far as "non-denominational" prayer, what exactly would that sound like?
"Oh, God, or Gods, or Goddess, or Goddesses, or school nurse please watch over these players...unless otherwise forbidden...so they don't hurt themselves...unless that's part of your plan...if you have a plan...and bless these players and their families...if you offer blessings..." and so on.
Since it's virtually impossible to construct a prayer that would make everyone happy (and you wouldn't be allowed to call it a prayer, either) don't you think it is best to just skip trying to announce it over the PA and just provide a moment or two for personal prayer/meditation/reflection? Does God hear better if it's on a PA? I doubt it.

Nobody is telling you you can't pray in school if you want to. What they're telling you is that you can't use public property to annoy others with YOUR prayers. They're saying you cannot have school staff pressuring children to pray to a god they may or may not believe in. Lori makes a great point with that - if you want your children to pray then it is up to you, the PARENT of that child, to teach them that. Not their teacher.

Tiassa,

You seemed to have such a screwed-up notion of what Christianity is, I find it hard to believe.

True, some things have been done by "Christians" that are regrettable.

But you always seem to leave out all of the positive things they have done, as well. Have you heard of Catholic Charities? Salvation Army? Habitat for Humanity? Feed the Children?

One of Christianity's fundamental callings is to help the poor. I think we do that quite well.

I don't see any liberal or atheistic organizations doing anything benevolent like feeding starving kids in Africa, or sheltering a battered woman in America.

They are too busy keeping God out of the schools. A raspberry to you for being so one-sided! :p

------------------
"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley

Mooncat,

Well first of all, the prayer can be non-denominational, and non-offensive. How about something like:

"We pray that you will look over us and protect us from harm, and we ask for your blessing in our lives."

That ought to offend everyone like crazy. :)

------------------
"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley

Hi Cable Man,

Quote:
"For all the nasty things that have happened in this country: slavery, indian land confiscation, buffalo slaughters,this land was dedicated to God by C. Columbus as pompous as he was. The Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, all written by ordinary men with vices and flaws came up with truly unique documents inspired by the Judeao Christian God. This country came into being on a Christian Foundation in a way never seen anywhere in the world in modern times."

Have you ever done any research into the history and interaction of the US Presidents, the Jesuits, Freemasonry and the Catholic Church, and ever wondered why the dollar bill in your pocket reflects the imagery that it does? Just curious.

Pashley,

I love your slogan.

Take care.

Pashley,

Let me see here,

"We pray that you will look over us and protect us from harm, and we ask for your blessing in our lives."

Okay, I see a problem with the very first word of your prayer - "we". Let's pretend I'm an atheist and in the audience, and don't want anyone looking over me or blessing me in any way shape or form. I am offended by the request being made in my behalf to a god I don't believe in, no matter which god it is.

Or, I am not any kind of "-theist" and am completely digusted by the concept of a god, and now you are praying on my behalf??

Or perhaps I believe in the kind of God that severely frowns on any kind of public display of faith, and am completely horrified to find myself included in a mass prayer being broadcast to a couple of football teams and an audience.

God, religion, prayer, these are all highly individual and personal things. No one prayer is going to satisfy everyone, because some people don't like prayers at all. You may be able to satisfy most, but when speaking of personal things, it's probably best to keep it personal to avoid stepping on anyone's toes.

Pash--

I s'pose I could buy the prayer you've proposed to MC. Now, what about the atheists? ;)

You seemed to have such a screwed-up notion of what Christianity is, I find it hard to believe.

Of my screwed-up notions of Christianity ... well, where do they come from? We need not assert here, for I can describe it exactly ... I get them from Christians, and from having been Christian, and from having examined as much of the world as I can wrap my greedy little brain around at any one time, especially while living in a culture that--as Christian activists are quick to point out--is so predominantly Christian.

One of Christianity's fundamental callings is to help the poor.

I would refer you to Max Weber's Protestantism and the Rise of Capitalism; there exists a connection between mass-Christianity and the deliberate creation and maintenance of a poor class. Perhaps if Christian individuals had addressed this idea when it was first published instead of following the usual pattern of denial, counterattack, and proclamation of propriety, the best economy in the world wouldn't be so damned dependent on a growing lower economic stratum. Don't get me wrong; in general, Christian charity does an excellent job, but I do think that they're often solving ills that Christianity created by itself.

I don't see any liberal or atheistic organizations doing anything benevolent like feeding starving kids in Africa, or sheltering a battered woman in America.

Well, you should look harder. Even Greek Row at the Univ. of Oregon was into good charity work. I see a number of nonreligious HIV awareness, prevention, and relief agencies in this country. I should also mention the hideous amount of graft involved in feeding Africa, but I do take your point, in the long run. How many of the battered women in America are married to men who call themselves Christian? (The point there being that, had Christianity better opinions of family and marriage and women in general ... would there be so many battered women? What can Christians do to reduce the ills they find themselves compelled to treat?) Harm reduction has never gone over well with Christianity in general.

And so, I offer my own raspberry for your raspberry :p

But strawberries make better milkshakes. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Originally posted by pashley:
Mooncat,

Well first of all, the prayer can be non-denominational, and non-offensive. How about something like:

"We pray that you will look over us and protect us from harm, and we ask for your blessing in our lives."

That ought to offend everyone like crazy. :)



Okay, Pash. Now to whom do you address this prayer?



------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

As far as "non-denominational" prayer, what exactly would that sound like?
"Oh, God, or Gods, or Goddess, or Goddesses, or school nurse please watch over these players...unless otherwise forbidden...so they don't hurt themselves...unless that's part of your plan...if you have a plan...and bless these players and their families...if you offer blessings..." and so on.

Good one, MoonCat! :D

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Originally posted by pashley:
How's the remedial spelling class coming along? :) :)


Are the smiley faces supposed to take the sting out of the insults, Pashley?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Tiassa...you've got a real bone to chew on here. Where do I go? I could write alot, but doing so takes away some of the fun. Just some notes...

1.We all came off the same boat...Noah's...and we've never gotten along together for very long at a time.

2. This country does have a Christian heritige however all people that came over here weren't Christians. Don't blame all the evils that have occured here on "The Christian Foundation" or the Christian.

3. Why do people counterfit $100.00 bills (US Currency)? Because they gain benefits they wouldn't otherwise be provided with. Same goes for Christianity.

4. What is the best way to get rid of something one does not like? Trashing it.

5. If all 78% of the people in the US were in a Bible study in a great big house...and the house got raided by "the authorities" with guns and everybody was told to lay face down on the floor...Then the announcement was made ..."If you are here just out of curiosity and are not really a Christian you may leave...don't ever mention this event to any one, don't ever ask anyone about this event...go quietly and don't look back. If you claim the Christian Christ you must remain where you are. How many would leave?

6. The founding fathers purposefully left education out of the hands of government. Polititians pounded for public schools only many years later. When and where were the first public schools started and what was the literacy rate at that time? I submit the founding fathers saw this day and said no to public schools in the beginning.


Hey Strech:

Yeah, Ive heard stories about freemasons, and the eye in the triangle and all that stuff however it changes nothing of importance here. I've also heard of black helecopters that fly around and can detect large sums of money sitting in specific houses which are then checked out for drug trafficing. These are subjects for future discussion.

Moon Cat, groovy prayer man. Mine are like that sometimes...like when someone I care about is about to die and I pray "thy will be done" then I think "what a whimpy prayer...God you could make this person live if you really wanted to...God let them live! Then when the ordeal is over I didn't know if God answered my prayer or not because I prayed for everything under the sun. In reality I suppose you could say He did answer at least one of my prayers. Wishy-washy but it has happened..

This is all mind tiring. I,m a father of five and we home school anyway because religious culture is importaint and public schools, as evidenced here over the past 24 hrs, end up teaching antichrist because anything else is just "too contraversial"!

Believe it or not my children spell better than I do!

One final question? Raise your hand if your mom ask you if it was OK to abort you in her womb. Raise your hand again if you said it was OK. Alrighty pro choice works!


[This message has been edited by Cable Man (edited June 21, 2000).]

Cable Man ...

If I might respond in kind ;)

1. Cute. I prefer to think of it as we all came from the same primordial soup. Carl Sagan once wrote that we are made of stardust; Aleister Crowley wrote that "Every man and woman is a Star". Okay, the quotes are a bit thin, but they're picturesque enough.

2. I'm aware of this nation's Christian heritage. Both positive and negative. I was merely noting that negative aspect this time out because of your apparent demand that we get down on our knees and kiss the Christians' asses. I quote you, with boldface for accent by me:
This country came into being on a Christian Foundation in a way never seen anywhere in the world in modern times. I submit this country has prospered because of this. People that were not Christian but a part of this country reaped the benefits of harvests they did not sow and that is true today. The founders of this country gave of their lives and fortunes, and they really did, to pass on to us a heritige we have forgotton. It is time we remembered our roots and let those who have paid the dues run the show and let everybody else stand on the sidelines.
So, uh ... how freakin' pompous is that?

3. How many assumptions of your state of mind would you like me to make? Elaborate, if you have a point, please. Really, what would you like me to read into that?

4. Or what, perhaps whitewash it? Hello? You're the one who seems to resent mention of the darker sides of the Houses of Your Lord. How very, uh ... quaint, I suppose.

5. On the one hand, I don't know what you're trying to demonstrate. To the other, I submit that God knows well what is in your heart. You're talking about all the nation's Christians? How tough an answer is that? You lie, cheat, and steal to get the hell out of there; God wants you to live to fight another day. Or, perhaps, we could take the broader view that if that were to happen, it would be as God wants it. Hey-hey, it's His universe, right?

6. I found the following, from a quick, easy search at the History Channel: http://www.historychannel.com/perl/print_book.pl?ID=35015 . I think the people will public education. And in any contemporary context you choose, that's what really counts. I might further mention that the reason people will it is because we need only look to history to discover the common trends for undereducated and uneducated populations. It's generally a bad thing to have illiterate masses. Well, unless you're literate. Then exploitation is easy. And, well, that seems to be the primary reason for keeping a people illiterate. Public education was meant to make literacy transcend economic barriers, which barriers typically sufficed in keeping past nations illiterate.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:


------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa,

Come on with the tax dollar crapola. You know, given the fact that taking a machine gun to school and blowing away class mates and teachers seems to be the fucking national past time nowadays INSTEAD OF the football game, I don't see how broadcasting a prayer of ANY KIND over the stupid PA system is a waste of money, or an infringement on anyone's rights. Hey, say a christian prayer, or a Buddist prayer, or a Muslim prayer, or a wiccan prayer, BUT SOMEBODY PRAY OK???!!! I fail to see the big problem. Oh, that's right, YOU'RE the problem.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori--

It has nothing to do with the cost. Employing public resources constitutes a governmental endorsement. It's mixing church and state. Simply, I support that division maintained by the courts.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Originally posted by tiassa:

It has nothing to do with the cost. Employing public resources constitutes a governmental endorsement. It's mixing church and state. Simply, I support that division maintained by the courts.




Government resources are used to print money, have witnesses sworn in on a Bible, and facilitate a prayer by the Chaplin in Congress, so that is not the point.

A student is not an agent of the state, when they lead a prayer, but magically, they seem to become one according to the courts.

Again, it's about keeping God out of the face of those in denial, or the atheists. Never mind most people want to, or don't mind, holding a 20-second prayer. I'd like to see if those same folks that are screaming about not having prayers are like when the airplane they are riding in is going down, or they are in a foxhole under heavy enemy fire.

I think I'll take the advice of Cal Thomas's column today, and focus more on being a good Christian, and praying to God in private, not in a showy fashion.I think HE would want us to do that.

------------------
"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley

I think I'll take the advice of Cal Thomas's column today, and focus more on being a good Christian, and praying to God in private, not in a showy fashion.I think HE would want us to do that.

That'll be the day, Pash.

I mean, really ... so the government (via the school) should spend public money (via taxes) to accommodate the wishes of a student who wants to subject an entire stadium to the prayer of one sect of one restricted faith.

Quit whining. Why can't you see that the Courts (and this Union) are there for all people, not just Christians? It's one of the most offensive things about these stupid fights. All the Christians in this case are asking for is to be equal by receiving specific favors through a public agency.

What a crock! :p

--Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

All,

One thing I have noticed in this discusions is the fact that those whol are in favor of the school sponsered prayer think it is a Christian vs. Athiesist thing. One of the congress men said perfectly. Now my qutoes are not going to be word for word, becuase I all ready through out my news paper. "This is about fairness to all religons. Allow the prayer tells those who belive in the same faith that they are insiders and worthy of more, and tells those who do not that they are out cast and are not favored."

Lori,
Now to answer your question of how much more harm can this do any more harm then the kid who brings a gun and shoots his class mates. It's rather simple. This athority approved game of favorites fosters some of the violence. There will all ways be a group of kids who feel they are outsiders, but why make the problem worse????? Then sit back and ask "Why did little Timmy run around killing and planting bombs?". When it is painfully clear that we all have a hand in it. The bigger the seperation we make between the "in crowd" and the "outsiders" the worse we make the problem.

The choice to keep the prayer private instead of a public display was not about religon, but what was best for all. They never said they may not get together and pray. Just that they may not make a public display of it at a state sponsered event or school.

666,

While your point about kids that feel alienated might find retribution, I also think that the parents have to bear alot of this weight. Look at the Columbine deal. If I remember correctly, one of the kids was making bombs at home, and had weapons in their rooms?

Call me nuts, but I think that might be a sign of a problem....

------------------
"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley

ok, everyone, i can spell, the reson i cant spell when i type is the fact that one hand moves faster than the other.... i wish i was normal, but from 2 years of playing bass, it has left me a crippled typer....

------------------
when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

Dex--

As a guitarist who never bothered to learn more than five chords and two scales, I rarely find myself with something to offer someone which might be useful. However, and though you may have heard this already--and for obvious reasons possibly deferred--I offer this: Despite my general lack of practice discipline, I learned a good deal of theory from reading, and from hanging around with far better musicians than myself. I recall that several guitarists, over the years, have combatted stiffness in their fretboard hand (and even was enlisted by more than one guitarist to extend their losing battles to arthritis) with a rather sickening-sounding mixture: 1 tablespoon Cod Liver Oil in 1/4 cup milk on a daily basis for however long you choose. However, I've never personally known anyone who has used this. The biggest complaint of the professionals was the taste, and the cherry- or mint-flavored versions don't mask the flavor.

Oh! btw ... a friend of mine who plays bass is spending an hour or so with Carol Kaye (sp?) of the Wrecking Crew as part of the Experience Music Project opening. Rarely do I see this man get that excited.

be good to that hand,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

dexter-FELLOW BASS PLAYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew I liked you for a reason! I have a similar problem, but I offset it by playing piano as well. It keeps the hands trained to work in conjunction with one another. Playing certain video games in the arcade versions also helps improve eye-hand coordination. You rock!

All-Why do most Christians feel they need to fling their god in our faces at public events? Can't they pray in private, like their bible says? Will someone please answer me that, at least?

As far as other infractions of the church/state separation, yes, I would like to see it go out the window. the money in my pocket reads "In God We Trust". What about those who don't trust this god?

In court they have you swear on a bible, but this is only as a default. I declined the bible when I went under oath, but as this is not normally done, there was a brief hiccup in the proceedings. The judge hesitated on how to continue, so I offered an oath on my honor. It was good enough, and since I was only a character witness in the trial, I was never cross-examined to have my honor challenged. When sworn in by the US Navy, we were offered the option to state "I...do solemnly swear..." or else "I...do hereby vow...". Since the phrase "solemnly swear" carried religious overtones, it was made optional.

It was stated earlier in this thread that Christians essentially built this nation, and that is why references to God are so prominent. This doesn't seem to take into account that if it wasn't for the natives, the colonies would have floundered miserably. The Corn Maiden, the Thunderbird, the Kachina, Quetzalcoatl, and Kokopeli were all in the Americas long before the Christian God even crossed the Atlantic. The nations they built were no less noble or proud. The Christian God only took dominance because his followers were more skilled at the arts of deception and cruelty. I'm sure the Christian argument would be "Our God didn't perform the acts of cruelty and deception. Man did." Then men built this place, not god, for the main reason the Manifest Destiny became real was because of deception and cruelty.

In a downtown park in San Jose, California, a statue of Quetzalcoatl was placed. The Christians naturally had a hissy fit. The statue, they said, represented everything from a false god to out-and-out Satan worship. The city intended it as a symbol of the Latino community. The Christian organizations saw it a symbol of golden-calf worshipping debauchery, conveniently forgetting a cross erected decades ago in a neighboring park. The city declared that if Quetzalcoatl had to go, so did references to all cultures within the city, including the Christian culture (it does have cultural elements). Well, both the feathered snake and the ancient torture rack are still on public display, and nobody's gone to Hell yet. Can't we all just get along like these two chunks of rock?

http://www.gbase.com/guitar_pics/451/120207.jpg

Play on guys, 12 string acoustic personally.

Allcare

Tony


P.S Prayer in public as a witness that we believe?

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Nice axe, Tony! I wish I had a camera and stuff. I'd post my musical menagerie, too.

Originally posted by Oxygen:



The Christian God only took dominance because his followers were more skilled at the arts of deception and cruelty.

Oh please, care to make a citation before just casually throwing that out?

If Christianity is so evil and cruel, how come 1/3 of the world's population, and some 80% of Americans are Christian? Oh, we're all deluded, I suppose.



------------------
"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley

If Christianity is so evil and cruel, how come 1/3 of the world's population, and some 80% of Americans are Christian? Oh, we're all deluded, I suppose.

No, I think it has something to do with the fifteen-hundred years of persecuting the crap out of everything. You're forgetting that for a thousand years in Europe, if you weren't Christian, you were better off dead.

--Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

i stay mainly with bass, but i can play guitar and drums also, but i also like to play piano, and i have figured out some rad songs on that, and oxygen, what kinda bass do u have???

------------------
when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

My brother's a bass player in the best cover band in Cincy. I like the bass, it's a very manly instrument. Do you guys ever imitate the Gene Simmons stance? You just gotta love that. :D

You know, I agree that it wasn't such a great idea to announce the prayer to begin with. I just don't understand Tiassa and other's vehemency regarding church and state. There's a fear there, that I'm assuming goes back to persecution by christians?? I don't know. I mean are we talking about discrimination, what? There just seems to be some unfounded paranoia. You know, kids spend a hell of a lot of time in school, and they're actually supposed to learn something. You would hope that it would be a thing or two about life, and what it's about, and how to survive, and how to be happy, and strong, and a good person. Does that happen? No. And don't even, because I went to high school and college too and got good grades, and you know I've got a spiritual IQ of about 2. And the schools don't just separate either. The vibe that I get is a denial of God altogether. A replacement for Him. Like it's humanity vs God or something; a competition in theory. It's beyond simple separation of church and state in the name of religious persecution of some kind. It is in itself becoming a form of religious persecution.

How about teaching kids in school about spirituality? How about teaching them about the major world religions, and also the atheist's point of view, and letting them decide for themselves? Now isn't that a scary idea? How about everyone not getting so uptight if someone wants to talk about Jesus? I'm just saying, what's the big deal?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 23, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 23, 2000).]

pashley,

Oh I agree with you, parents have a big role in this too. I was just pointing out the seperation this causes at school. Just becuase they are christain doesn't mean they are peace love and trail mix. I rember back in junior high I was asked in the middle of class by the teacher what religon I was and why I didn't care for thier breif moment of prayer. When I told her that I was raised Chatholic, but no longer belived and do not care for thier God it caused all kinds of problems. Including several knock down fights. Now this didn't bother me to much, but it did cause a lot of problems including being labled Satan Boy. I ened up having fun with it, telling the other kids I put a curse on them or I was going to call forth satan to take thier souls a night, but there were others who were in the same boat as me who didn't take it so well. I even had teachers who would come down on me for not beliving.

My point being. Parents have a big role, but the choice to keep the school / state sponsered public display of prayer out was to help keep it from causing a bigger problem. So my question remains. Why keep trying to push this public display of prayer when it only fosters these types of behaviors???????

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited June 23, 2000).]

666,

Hey man, kids are cruuuuuuuuuuuel. Brutal, absolutely brutal. Boys in a little different way than girls, but both just as brutal as the other. That's what junior high school is about apparently. Believe me, if it wasn't your lack of faith, it would have been something else. You were just describing it...it's all about the in crowd vs the out crowd and God help your ass if you're not in the in crowd. Guys get picked on if they're not "tough guys", get called fagots and pussies and whatever. Girls get picked on if they're fat, or if they don't have money for all the latest fads at the mall. Handicapped kids get picked on. Kids with learning disabilities. Kids who can't climb the rope in gym class. And yea, that is why some kids crack and blow up their schools. That's exactly why. And when that whole Columbine thing went down, I wasn't THAT surprised. I know how cruel kids can be. I remember. And they're also so impressionable and vulnerable at that age, that if you're on the receiving end of that shit, it's got to be the most devastating thing ever. You know, you're looking for your identity, all self-conscious and shit, looking for a place to fit in, and here you find out from all of your peers, teachers, whoever, that you're a freak, no one likes you, and you don't fit in. The problem is that, at that age, you actually believe those people; you don't realize that life changes and so do people. THANK GOD! Well, then again, some people change. But back to the point, what the hell is wrong with kids? Why are they so cruel? And excuse me, but if you can slide a prayer of any kind, or some type of spiritual lesson of some kind, into their vulcherous, materialistic, sexed up minds, then by all means GO FOR IT!

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 23, 2000).]

Lori,

"How about teaching kids in school about spirituality? How about teaching them about the major world religions, and also the atheist's point of view, and letting them decide for themselves? Now isn't that a scary idea? How about everyone not getting so uptight if someone wants to talk about Jesus? I'm just saying, what's the big deal? "

I think that's a great idea, the teaching about all religions. I would have valued something like that myself, I am now trying to self-educate myself on all these religions, and it's not easy!

There would have to be a lot of restrictions placed on such a thing though. Some parents simply will not want their school teaching their kids about spirituality, so this class would have to be an elective course. It would have to be taught by a teacher able to keep his/her personal bias (whatever that may be) out of the teachings. Each religion would have to be handled equally, with no one faith presented as the "correct" or "right" one. That is a pretty tall order, but if it could be accomplished, I think this would be a great idea.

I think, however, that a lot of people, (including a good number of Christians), would raise a gigantic hue and cry if you tried such a thing. Christians would object to students being taught about Wicca, Jews would object to students being taught Christianity, Wiccans...well, I think most Wiccans are more open than the followers of organized religion, but I bet you'd get at least one objector from just about every faith once you tried to put such a class in place. I could be wrong though, does anyone know of a course like that being taught in a public K-12 grade range school? It would be interesting to see how it works, if it does exist anywhere.

I think the key is to "educate them about" not "convert them to" the religions. There would have to be a huge emphasis on that, I think, to make it workable for everyone. Which is, afterall, what school is supposed to be for - education.

What is the educational standard, then? I recall, when I lived & worked in Oregon, that I listened to an inordinate (and probably unhealthy) amount of talk-radio (it's all I got on the company car radio or the little alarm-clock thing in my office).

A guy called in to a local conservative show to complain about prayer in schools. Specifically, he felt persecuted for his Christianity because his daughter had been failed by an Evil Atheist Teacher.

Now, here's the hair people were splitting: The report the daughter turned in bore only one source, against the assigned three. That source was the Bible. Her thesis was that Jesus was Lord, and that all people are supposed to worship him. According to the teacher's comments, her complaint with the paper was that A) there were not enough sources, and B) the thesis was too subjective to make a definitive conclusion.

I assert nothing here. But I feel it's a reasonable reflection on the current part of the topic.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Greetings all ~
Why offer a prayer before a football game? What purpose would it serve? I would think that GOD, if there is one, would have better thing to attend to than a football game. :rolleyes:
"Hmmm, let's see, there's famine, disease, war to deal with...nah, i think i'll go to the local football game, 'cause i've nothing better to do" puh~leeze! :D
Schools are indeed about education. Math, science, english...etc. and so on and so forth, not to mention social interaction.
Church, Temples and home even, are the place to learn about GOD (or ALLAH, or BUDDAH)
Both my parents were raised by strict religous parents. After my folks struck out on their own, married and had children, they gave their children ( my sister and myself ) a choice. We can go to church, and my parents were happy to take us, or not. Both my sister and myself tried it and decided we'd rather play sports with other children our age than sit in a stale place learning about something we didn't give a s**t about.
Does this make us bad people? No, i don't think so. We were given the choice. I stand by my choice.
So, given the choice that i made, why should i have to go to a football game to watch the kids play and enjoy themselves, only to be subjected to the thing i didn't want to do as a child?
Free speach you say? What about mine and others freedom not to have to listen to someone else rant about their belief? ;)
I have nothing against people and their beliefs, but it is a private matter and should be kept so!
With that being said...

you mena that wile all of this termoil about ME is raging, i wasnt informed? god!
come on, well my inpute is that the dudes who shoot everyone. well they are accually smarter than the others.
becasue tehy beat the system in there minds. tehy understand more, but from the termoil wich they have grown in, in there homes and on the streets...they dont know of the impact it might have on the lives of others. it could either be taht or the childeren are insanely stupid.
but the thing about not fitting in, i am pretty high on the social scale..... but everywere there are clicks, tehre are the really popular cheerleeder and b-ball players, then there is my group, then skaters, then everyone else..... once in high school i hve been told it will straighten out, well i am in high school, i start in a couple months :(
and the teachers can also have a part in the dilema, if a teacher doesnt like a child, he/she will then rat on the child, i remember my english teacher from last yearwas nagging on me all teh time saying "when most of the boys you think are cute grow up, tehy will be fat trailer trash, with a beer belly and no life, 'BILLIE'" and i was seriously offended.


------------------
when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

Lori,

I understand what you are saying and agree fully.

My point was why add fuel to the fire? Also as I showed it's not just the kids who go along with this crap the teachers jump right in. When it comes to religon it is extreamly personal and has no place in a school.

MC, Tiassa,

I agree with you totally. What you're saying is right on. The "christians" would be the first to scream about it, no doubt. They don't get what they're doing I don't think. Hey, I could swear that my grandma thinks the devil himself can be found inside a can of beer. *shrug* Don't ask me? Shedding a bad light you know? They're supposed to shine a light!

666,

You're right too...I would never want to trust a school teacher or administrator to teach my child about spirituality. They seem to barely be able to handle math and science if you ask me. It's always ultimately the sole responsibility of the parents. That's why parents are so important. Oh gee, and we thought it was the pay check?! And that's why kids are so messed up, cause parents are messed up, and no one really has time to give a crap. I don't think it occurs to most people to give a crap. This is all we can give them? This is it...all they have to look forward to? Being some player, some hoochie-mamma, rich, powerful, big house, fast car, drugs, divorce, what?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 25, 2000).]

dexter- I've got a Cahuenga. It isn't a very famous brand name, but how I got it was pretty cool (I think). When I was in third grade I saw the bass hanging in D'Angelo's Music Store. My brother was getting a mouthpiece for his trombone and I told Mr. D'Angelo that I wanted that guitar. Every time we went in, I would tell him I wanted that guitar. It stayed there for 15 years until I went in and gave him the money for it. All he could say was "I can't believe you actually bought it!" ($300.00) It's got a sunburst pattern and it weighs a ton. It must have been mine from the day it was built, because for 15 years nobody even looked at it, even when the price was cut in half. I call it "Boomer".

It's cohort is a Kay Bass Viol which I play pizzicato. In common parlance, I also play an accoustic bass. (In jazz parlance, I slap a doghouse.) I played for a swing band back in the 80s, but the leader and I didn't get along. He was too much of a spotman. Didn't like improv and hated the way I wouldn't just stand still and pluck a bass line.

I know, we've gone totally off the topic here. So what?

i have a fender p-bass, it isnt a really nice bass, but i needed a new one after my jazz broke, for a talent show, its read and nice, i got 25 bux off because theere was a little chip in the back, but a week later there were like 3 more on the front, abut i like it, it has pretty nice action, and it looks really kool, i tried a acustic stand up bass once, its hard to play with out frets but i got the hang of it. and now i cant decide waht band to be in. one doesnt have a drummer so that is an ovious, but its one of my friends.... hmmmmm

------------------
when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

who seriously gives if i cant type, its not my mind, its my damn bass skills.well if you can understand enough to tell me i misspelled it, then you ought to know what i mean.

------------------
when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

well if you can understand enough to tell me i misspelled it, then you ought to know what i mean.


Prove it!