Does it exist?

What is it then?

Ice cold vodka on a stinking hot day.

Yes, they exist.

Satori is the heart of Zen; an Awakening or Enlightenment. It is the Awakening to one's Original Face before one was born, to the ultimate reality of all. It is an Awakening of the Heart flowering into endless compassion for all beings.

Glimpses of truth, or satoris, are very common and are a natural state of being that all mature meditators experience for various durations. When a satori becomes permanent it is the first stage of enlightenment, the Self or Being is revealed and the ego dissolves.

Satoris are common; permanent awakening is much more rare.

Peace.

Originally posted by goofyfish
Yes, they exist.

Satoris are common; permanent awakening is much more rare.

Peace. Hey! We agree on something right off.

There are enough anecdotal reports of experiences which closely resemble satori. Even more convincing is that these experiences are reported by ppl who were not meditating or trying for satori in the first place.

What I have trouble in accepting is the other stuff that comes along with accepting the concept of enlightenement. Stuff like -

karma - implying that retribution/justice exists.

rebirth - which implies a version of a "soul".

etc.

Yet, the "enlightened" have reported that these concepts exist, and that they are able to percieve them clearly.

What are your thoughts on these?

Attaining 'Satori' in mordern capitalistic world is difficult - especially while engaging in corporate accounting practices....if you can get off the rat race...the conditions are more favorable....

The grass does not grow on a well travelled path...

Biochemically, high amout of cortisol prevent such understanding...

Originally posted by kmguru
Attaining 'Satori' in mordern capitalistic world is difficult - The concept of karma holds particular difficulty for many people, ecpecially Westerners. It's not easy for us to realize that we're the cause of our own pain, our own anger, that it's our responsibility to turn around our minds. Accepting karma means truly accepting responsibility for your own life, and today's cultural climate doesn't really encourage that.

Peace.

May be we should set up a non-profit Satori-Club for the westerners....!

I hope you realise that you might as well just say "enlightenment", as that's what those other language words mean. Why not just use English words? And there is nothing about "Western" cultures which is less spitirual or whatever than romanticised impressions of "Eastern" cultures that some people hold. China, for example, was driven by feudal power, greed, and a rigid caste system, all VERY materialistic, for a very long time. To assume "Western" cultures are somehow not very spiritual is to completely ignore thousands of years of history.

Originally posted by goofyfish
The concept of karma holds particular difficulty for many people, ecpecially Westerners. It's not easy for us to realize that we're the cause of our own pain, our own anger, that it's our responsibility to turn around our minds. Accepting karma means truly accepting responsibility for your own life, and today's cultural climate doesn't really encourage that.

Peace. That's a good way of describing karma, esp because it implies direct responsibility and not some sort of cosmic scorekeeping/scorekeeper. But the core of the problem is not addressed - ie. how does any "karmic debt" carry over into the "next life".

The key here is the rebirth/soul issue, I guess. I'm convinced (largely by reading posts here at sciforums :)) that there is no such thing as a "soul" or anything which survives death.

At the same time, I am equally convinced (from other sources) that satori exists. More precisely, a form of transcendance of our everyday mental states exists. It can come about spontaneously, or it could be brought about by meditation/etc.

The "enlightened" ppl report that they are able to "see" both karmic influence as well as re-birth. That would imply some sort of "soul". How could this be?

Originally posted by Adam
I hope you realise that you might as well just say "enlightenment", as that's what those other language words mean.I did make that connection in my opening response. I stay with it as it was the word used in the topic. Additionally, satori is sometimes confused with Nibbana (Nirvana). Satoris are usually temporary while Nibbana is a permanent state of enlightenment, which ends the cycle of rebirth in samsara.there is nothing about "Western" cultures which is less spitirual or whatever than romanticised impressions of "Eastern" cultures...That is correct; I was not clear in my meaning. I was referring more to the inability of people (especially many in American society) to accept personal responsibility, as evidenced by the variety of legal defenses and ridiculous litigations that have become common in our court systems.

Peace.

This is all very interesting.... BUT what is this doing in the Human Science dept.?

Perhaps because ...it is under psychology, cognition, sociology, anthropology, archaeology?

For a report on a experience resembling satori, see RD Liang's "the politics of experience", where the author, who is a psychiatrist, describes the experiences of someone who "went crazy" for a period of 10 days.

Can anyone else suggest other sources for satori experiences? Preferably medically authenticated?

Hmmm... I really don't think any of the following terms: "psychology, cognition, sociology, anthropology, archaeology" is applicable. (only in a very obscure or indirect way, maybe)
I suggest this discussion to be moved to Eastern Philosophy.

Originally posted by Merlijn
I suggest this discussion to be moved to Eastern Philosophy.Or we could stop haggling over location and just continue the discussion. :)

Peace.

Originally posted by goofyfish
Or we could stop haggling over location and just continue the discussion. :)

Peace. I agree.

My aim was to discuss alternate mental states [without] the baggage that religion might carry.

Goofyfish, you expressed an opinion that satori exists. What would you say induces it? Meditation?

Because some reports indicate that they happened to ppl spontaneously. Other reports indicate that the experiences induced by psychedelic drugs resemble satori.

IMO, there should be no difference in the quality of the experience if it was induced by drugs or if it was brought about by 10 years of meditation. Plus, a lot of time is saved. ;)

goofyfish,

Satori is the heart of Zen; an Awakening or Enlightenment. It is the Awakening to one's Original Face before one was born, to the ultimate reality of all. It is an Awakening of the Heart flowering into endless compassion for all beings.

Why have you never told me that? I could have spoken to you using a more Eastern language... ;)

Originally posted by kmguru:
Attaining 'Satori' in mordern capitalistic world is difficult - especially while engaging in corporate accounting practices....if you can get off the rat race...the conditions are more favorable....

That's why I blame so much capitalism...

It makes too hard to experience spiritual awakening... :(


Adam,

I hope you realise that you might as well just say "enlightenment", as that's what those other language words mean. Why not just use English words? And there is nothing about "Western" cultures which is less spitirual or whatever than romanticised impressions of "Eastern" cultures that some people hold. China, for example, was driven by feudal power, greed, and a rigid caste system, all VERY materialistic, for a very long time. To assume "Western" cultures are somehow not very spiritual is to completely ignore thousands of years of history.

I don't see any spiritual history in US... do you...?:confused:


GOD,

My aim was to discuss alternate mental states [without] the baggage that religion might carry.

Ok... I can do it... NO RELIGION. No dogma. Only interpretation...

Because some reports indicate that they happened to ppl spontaneously. Other reports indicate that the experiences induced by psychedelic drugs resemble satori.

ppl...?

They resemble satori... actually, you became temporarilly more aware using drugs... but you know what happen in the long run, don't you? Some ancient civilizations, like Mayas, used drugs with discipline to experience an state of awareness... but they had discipline for that.

Besides that, why do you think it takes years of meditation to increase your awareness (eventhough I took only about one year...)? You have to prepare your brain... Imagine if you born blind and suddenly start to see... You will become crazy!! Your brain will receive so much information at the same time that it won't be able to understand it without getting crazy! That's one of the effects of drugs. When you suddely get more awareness you get more confused because your brain was not prepared for that lenght of information.

What induces "satori"?

Meditation for Easterns...
Prayer for Westerns...
Depending on the Religion...

I succesfully attained an increased awareness using both of them. The second one happens when you pray for Peace and Love in the world. You can also make visualizations or affirmations. It works somewhat in the same way. Just think of "whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise".

Love,
Nelson

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
*"whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise".*

True!

It's all Karma! :)

Spoken as a woman from the West, meditating for years. Used to use drugs like LSD and the like. Prefer to go on my meditation. Become aware people. That it's only something for Eastern humans is BS.

Pity I found this thread just today. Oh well, I shall not bother you any longer.

Just one more point, how the hell can you even think Satori is to be found in the U$? Yes, now I'm living there, that's the difference.:D

Good Karma to you...:)

Banshee,

True!

If you don't know... it's Philipians 4:8 ;)

Love,
Nelson

Nice the monks wrote it down in the bible Nelson. I don't really care where it's coming from. It is tue and the same message can be told by any person walking the Earth, without believing in god as a one man, only good, creator of mankind. (god did some rather cruel things in the old testament)

Buddhism does not have a one god almighty, they tell the story of real awareness and Love very perfect.

It are just other names, the same essence of words though.

Good Karma and Love to you...:) :)

Aside: My current beliefs is that -
1. an alternate mental state, which some term "satori", does exist.
2. That state is desirable to attain (though desiring it only prevents it's attainment :)).
3. While I presently believe it to be desirable, it is no more desirable than many other things/activities in the world. ie. Unlike others, I am not willing to sacrifice a whole lifetime in attaining a state of mind, however desirable it may be.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
ppl...? short for "people".
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
They resemble satori... actually, you became temporarilly more aware using drugs... but you know what happen in the long run, don't you? Some ancient civilizations, like Mayas, used drugs with discipline to experience an state of awareness... but they had discipline for that. Yes. In the long run, we are all dead. :D

But seriously, natural substances do not have permanent effect on the physical brain, just the attitude. Chemicals, on the other hand ....
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Besides that, why do you think it takes years of meditation to increase your awareness (eventhough I took only about one year...)? You have to prepare your brain... Imagine if you born blind and suddenly start to see... You will become crazy!! Here is something interesting! In all the time that I have known about the word "satori", here is finally someone who says he has ATTAINED it.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
What induces "satori"?

Meditation for Easterns...
Prayer for Westerns...
Depending on the Religion...

I succesfully attained an increased awareness using both of them.

The second one happens when you pray for Peace and Love in the world. You can also make visualizations or affirmations. It works somewhat in the same way. Just think of "whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise".
[/B] If I am not overly intrusive, can you pls describe your experience and your path in more detail?

This "second one" you speak of, is "nirvana"?

Now that you have seen, can you re-affirm the aspects of "karma" and "re-birth" that others talk about? They really exist?

Besides that, why do you think it takes years of meditation to increase your awareness (eventhough I took only about one year...)? You have to prepare your brain... Imagine if you born blind and suddenly start to see... You will become crazy!! Your brain will receive so much information at the same time that it won't be able to understand it without getting crazy! That's one of the effects of drugs. When you suddely get more awareness you get more confused because your brain was not prepared for that lenght of information.

Very very true. Some years ago, a team of doctors were able to bring back sight for a blind-from-birth person at age something like 33. That person lived a miserable life since then, because he felt that humans are ugly. He could not translate the sense of touch, sound and smell to visual imagery stored in his brain and died as a very sad person.

Several of my students in meditation experienced nightmares in the initial stages, even though the meditation process was christianized (Lord's Prayer).

GOD,

Here is something interesting! In all the time that I have known about the word "satori", here is finally someone who says he has ATTAINED it.

If I am not overly intrusive, can you pls describe your experience and your path in more detail?

If you call satori a temporary state of awarenes... yes... i had some times. I started trying in about 1997, 1998. In the first time I got my Kundaline until my fourth chackra. But I got afraid of it and (shit!!:mad:) I stopped... :(
I've been trying since then... but it's harder to pass through the points of detour... If you don't know what they are, ask me... ;)

In 2000 or 1999, I got my Heart Chackra going pretty easily, using a technique that I learned in Greek Mithology... I draw my energy, coming from my Heart Chackra (the fourth), passing through the fith, and then the six, and I went directly to the last one. I started to cry of emotion and was fully aware. I felt my head like three times bigger than it is (that's the interesting part... it was pretty much shapped like an ET's head... :p).

In the middle of 2000, I woke up in the middle of the night (about 3:00 AM) aware of my breath. I controlled my breath until about 10:00 AM. Then, I started to become really aware. My vision was highly enhanced, my body was being purified (this allways happens)... I mean purified when I start to blow up my nose and I get tears in my eyes... the body starts to wash itself and I get stressless...
Then, I had English class. For the first and only time I wasn't almost sleeping (I'm not very patient with an 1:30 lenght of English class... :D). My head started to grow (only the sensation, ok?;)). And it was REALLY hot. More than 40C... I was fully aware. I was feeling my Fith Chackra very well. It was the first time I was working with the Fith. I meditated for a long time, tried an OBE, and when was about 8:00 PM my state of consciousness started to fade out. By 9:00 PM I was normal again. So, I got 19 hours of increased awareness! :D:D
I tell you... it's not that easy be aware for 19 hours! I'm VERY persistent...
Later, I would explore my Sixth Chackra but I finished by falling in love and I started to forget meditation... :mad:
It seems that to fall in love is just a waste of time... :(
I never get anything from it anyways...

Well I had (and still have) a state of awareness. For... why do you think I can describe all those things and posts all those messages in the forums?? ;)

The difference is that my normal state of awarenes is a little bit enhanced after the 3 years of meditation, but I'm not as aware as I was during the meditations... ;)

This "second one" you speak of, is "nirvana"?

No... the second one is prayer.

Meditation for Easterns...
Prayer for Westerns...
Depending on the Religion...

The first is meditation, the second prayers... sorry for the lack of clarity... ;)

Now that you have seen, can you re-affirm the aspects of "karma" and "re-birth" that others talk about? They really exist?

I'll be honest with you: No. Now that I'm Christian, it's simply harder to talk about it. It's not written in the Bible, so I can't really say it for sure... even though I'm almost sure it was written in the ancient Bible. But the Inquisition might have got it out of it because of whichcraft and things related to it... and then they added whichcraft as an evil thing in the Bible. But I have information that in the 1800's there were Christians that practiced whichcraft and alchemy. I even have a book of one of them... Francis Barret... in Portuguese... But I don't read it until I see that it's true in the old Bible... ;)

But if the students of kmguru do meditation... I guess I can say something about it... ;)

What the others say? If there is other lifes? If there is karma?
Well... if there are other lifes there is karma... ;)
But karma is not only negative. There is positive karma too. Some people think that there is only negative karma, but there is positive too. I guess I have some negative karma... only because in other lifes I reached a state of more awareness and tried to reach the nirvana... but I didn't tell it to anyone...
So they killed me and put me in this life to wake up people... :D
Damn...!! I was so close... :(

I have more stories... I tell you later if I remember them...

Anyways... I discovered that is fun try to wake up people.
First, you grab them by their shoulders...
And then start to shake... :D:D
...
And shake, and shake, and shake, and shake... :D
Until they wake up and finally say...
What are you doing!?!? Where am I...? :confused:

:D:D:D:D:D

It's fun...
There's one here that Love sleep...
And he call himself Cris... :D:D
;)

Science is not everything... ;)

Anyways... :rolleyes:

I talk to you later... I have to go to church... :)

Ask me whatever you want... ;)

kmguru,

Several of my students in meditation experienced nightmares in the initial stages, even though the meditation process was christianized (Lord's Prayer).

Can you tell me about this christianized meditation? ;)

PS: Can someone tell sciforums to fix that up? I can't send Smiles! :( They make it so colorful... :D

Love,
Nelson

Originally posted by TruthSeeker

Can you tell me about this christianized meditation? ;)

PS: Can someone tell sciforums to fix that up? I can't send Smiles! :( They make it so colorful... :D



First of all, I do not know, why your smiles do not work, the same ones work fine on quote....

Since all of my students are Christians, I use the word 'prayer' and the property of 'prayer' as the basis - then go into focus without the words,...since the practice part is an one-to-one setup, the explanation depends on the person's belief and understanding of his/her religion and something greater than themselves. Long ago, I learned from a Presbyterian priest that one does not have to learn eastern philosophy to reach a blissfull state. Since, he was able to achieve it, understanding beyond the Bible stories and focusing on the core issues with ones own is what it takes to get there. A true Christian can reach Satori as good as a true Buddhist or Zen Monk. The commonality is more pronounced at the highest level. Most people get bogged down on low level differences rather than striving to attain spirituality.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
But karma is not only negative. There is positive karma too. Some people think that there is only negative karma, but there is positive too. I guess I have some negative karma... only because in other lifes I reached a state of more awareness and tried to reach the nirvana... but I didn't tell it to anyone...
So they killed me and put me in this life to wake up people... :D
Damn...!! I was so close... :(

hehe... lucky for us! :D
hey can you teach me how to meditate???? :confused: did you learn from books, Nelson???

The smilies can be enabled by un-checking the box at the bottom of the "reply" window. It's labeled "Disable smilies in this post".

I'm convinced that you have had an experience which many have not experienced. :)

One thing which puzzles me -

You speak of chakras, kundalini, negative karma and other lives. None of which are christian concepts. Yet you also maintain that you are a christian now. :confused:
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
I'll be honest with you: No. Now that I'm Christian, it's simply harder to talk about it. It's not written in the Bible, so I can't really say it for sure... even though I'm almost sure it was written in the ancient Bible. But the Inquisition might have got it out of it because of whichcraft and things related to it... and then they added whichcraft as an evil thing in the Bible. But I have information that in the 1800's there were Christians that practiced whichcraft and alchemy. I even have a book of one of them... Francis Barret... in Portuguese... But I don't read it until I see that it's true in the old Bible... ;) So you say that christianity tries hard to supress mystical tradition. Yet you say that your experience is a re-affirmation of christianity. :confused:

Is that not like, say, a gay or lesbian person saying that catholicism re-inforces their sexual preference .... ???

Have you tried to look at other religions to see if there is a better fit to describe your experience? Perhaps one which encourages it, instead of burning people at the stake for it? Is your satori likely to enrich and grow in such an environment?

kmguru,

Since all of my students are Christians, I use the word 'prayer' and the property of 'prayer' as the basis - then go into focus without the words,...since the practice part is an one-to-one setup, the explanation depends on the person's belief and understanding of his/her religion and something greater than themselves.

Yeah... I do the same thing when I talk with people of different Religions. It's like changing from a language to another... ;)
I just adapt my speaking to other people's beliefs...

I just though that you had a different technique...
Thanks anyways... :)

bubbl3,

hey can you teach me how to meditate???? did you learn from books, Nelson???

That's a hard think to explain...

First... yes... I learn from books... I read many many books to understand this. About many Religions, Philosophies and Mithologies...

I would recommend you to read the story of Ulisses and Callipso in the Greek Mithology. There, there is a very good description on how to activate your Heart Chackra. ;) If I remember the story, I'll post it later...

Another story in greek Mithology is the story of Paris and Helena. I, unfortunatly, forget where is it in this story.. (this story has something between 100 and 200 pages... it's about the War of Troy. ;)). In this story, Aphrodite explain Paris and Helena how to become one in flesh!! (like the Christians say...) It's very interesting...

If you just READ those stories you already experience a state of enhanced awarenes... It's very good.

The Buddhists explain well too... But it's more complex.

The Taoist method is simple too.

Basically, sit in a comfortable position, relax, breath gently through your nose using your diaphragm. Diaphragm expands when you inspire and contracts when you expire. That's the normal breath. The opposite is called reversed breath.
WARNING: DON'T TRY REVERSED BREATH UNTIL YOU ARE ADVANCED!!

Don't control your chi... your energy during the meditation. It's better to let it flow.

You can use visualizations and affirmations too... but it's not necessary.


GOD,

The smilies can be enabled by un-checking the box at the bottom of the "reply" window. It's labeled "Disable smilies in this post".

I know that... but it appears a message of error... anyways...

You speak of chakras, kundalini, negative karma and other lives. None of which are christian concepts. Yet you also maintain that you are a christian now.

Yes... they are not Christians concepts... But see what kmguru wrote... ;)

So you say that christianity tries hard to supress mystical tradition. Yet you say that your experience is a re-affirmation of christianity.

No... I said that foolish people played with the Bible in the past. And innocent people were killed by excuses from what they called Bible. The Bible teaches not to kill. It's one of the commandaments. Yet, they killed many people... ;)
They messed up the Bible... I'm sure of that. The Bible in the hands of this old and decadent church was subject by changes. The message of the Bible is still beautiful. But many explanations were erased... :(

Have you tried to look at other religions to see if there is a better fit to describe your experience? Perhaps one which encourages it, instead of burning people at the stake for it? Is your satori likely to enrich and grow in such an environment?

Yes... I tried other Religions and Philosophies (and even Sciences) and I know many of them. See my thread "Science, Pscychology and Religion talk about the same thing... " for further explanations... ;)

Here's the link: http://www.sciforums.com/t6402/s/thread.html

I still follow some philosophies like Taoism even though I'm Christian. About not showing the Light... as the Taoists say... The "Universe" said that times are bad and people need to be woken up. I need to speak out. I hide all those thing from everyone since 1996, 1997 and now I have to speak out. And remember why I returned here even though I supposedly attained the nirvana in another encarnation... ;)

About the rest of the quote... the explanation is above... ;)

Love,
Nelson

Nelson,

I've read most greek myths including the trojan war, though I forget most of them already :p. I guess I'm gonna re-read them soon since I have the book with me!! for the sake of my enlightment! :D
thx! ;)

Nelson,

Glad to see yr smiles are working now. Thank you for the long if somewhat ambigious reply. I read the post you linked to, but it does not make much sense to me. I'm not generally interested in "theories of everything". I wish you success in awakening others. Originally posted by TruthSeeker
And remember why I returned here even though I supposedly attained the nirvana in another encarnation... ;) This was interesting to me. Many ppl who have experienced satori report memories about past lives. Some say that it is the karma of past lives that allows oe to become enlightened in this life.

Can you tell us more about how the re-incarnation process works?

Also, how does the karma process work?

.
.
.
.
PS: Please do not try to adapt your experience to what you think my religious affiliation might be. I have none.
"Yeah... I do the same thing when I talk with people of different Religions. It's like changing from a language to another...
I just adapt my speaking to other people's beliefs... "

I am interested in your description, in your words of your unique experience.

GOD,

Can you tell us more about how the re-incarnation process works?

Well... the Buddhist Book of the Dead says that we first go to somewhere called "bardo". Then, after 7 days, if we are prepared, we return to Earth. If we are not, we wait for more 7 days. And goes in 7 days... until you are prepared, then you come. That's if you didn't reached the nirvana in your life.

If you did reached the nirvana, you go to what the Taoists call Tao. The Hinduists call it Brahman... the Christians call it Heavens. (you proably don't understand the connection... perhaps I talk about it later, if you want...) and so on... It's our Home.

In my case, it was supposedly different. I reached the nirvana but I was really tired... so instead of offering to come back and help people, I said: No... I'm going back Home... I worked too hard (And I actually attained it in not so many lifes... I Love challenges... ;))

The Universe is interesting. It wants you to help others and be in service. I Love others, so it's relatively easy to help them...
But God! I'm tired!!

Also, how does the karma process work?

Action/Reaction. If you do something good, it will return to you something good. If you do something bad, it will return to you something bad. You can usually see it happening in your today's life... but some things are so powerful that it goes to other lifes. Many things that you do today has this power. If you influence only one person to do something good, you won't see very much, do you? It won't seem to be so powerful, isn't it? But this person will influence other, and the other other, and other, and other... and suddenly you have power enough to change the lifes olf many people! And if you do something bad? The same thing happens...

Love,
Nelson

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
... I'm not interested in what the buddhist book or any other book says.

I want to know what you saw in your moment of satori.

Did you see/percieve the truth of re-birth? Did you percieve directly the influence of karma?

+++++++

I'm familiar with the idea that heaven=tao=nirvana=whatever. Also there are those who say that the attainment of buddha = the attainment of jesus = the attainment of x, y or z.

In that sense, the ATTAINMENT is what the initial truth was. The perversion of the truth happened later, by the priests and theologists.

So, in that sense, what Jesus taught was the ATTAINMENT of salvation/satori/tao. He taught that we are to BECOME gods, rather than worship god. Is that your opinion as well?

The Universe is interesting. It wants you to help others and be in service.

Well said. May I add that each person has something different to contribute based on the knowledge attained here. Doors are automatically opened as you offer your service, even though sometimes it is difficult to know, where you are going...

Yes, sometimes the road leads on to glory but you used up one last wish...:)

TruthSeeker, very good reply. Stay your own wonderful, open self. You're beautiful...;) :)

GOD,

Did you see/percieve the truth of re-birth? Did you percieve directly the influence of karma?

We re-birth each day, my friend... :)
We re-birth each second.
Life is a present, the Present is a present.

There is no past and future... there is only an eternal present. Time is an illusion. Once you feel that, what can be true in this Universe? Once you feel that, you let yourself go and all things start to happen in your life... I should do that in mine again...

If I perceive... I don't know... there are so many things each day... I can't remember...
But mostly... things fall in their places when we let them...
It's just really hard to let the seed grow when you really want something... :(

I'll give you an example. I Love one girl very much. If I let her go, she will naturally come back accordig to Universal laws. But I want her so much that I don't stop thinking of her, and the Universe can do nothing about it...

In that sense, the ATTAINMENT is what the initial truth was. The perversion of the truth happened later, by the priests and theologists.

Pretty much...

So, in that sense, what Jesus taught was the ATTAINMENT of salvation/satori/tao. He taught that we are to BECOME gods, rather than worship god. Is that your opinion as well?

Yes!! :)
Oh my God...
You understood!!!
You are the first one to understand!!!! :):):):):):):):):)

You don't know how happy you are making me now...! :):):):):)

:)

kmguru,

Well said. May I add that each person has something different to contribute based on the knowledge attained here. Doors are automatically opened as you offer your service, even though sometimes it is difficult to know, where you are going...

Thanks! And thanks for the addition too. Very enriching... :)

:)

Banshee,

TruthSeeker, very good reply. Stay your own wonderful, open self. You're beautiful...;):)

Thanks! I need all of that... :)

:)

Love you all! :)
Nelson

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
We re-birth each day, my friend... :)
We re-birth each second.
Life is a present, the Present is a present. And I suppose the analogy here is a river? The water of the river is different every moment, but our concept of the river is that it is still the same? This river example, like your statement that "we ribirth every second", are needless platitudes. You know it, I know it. I know you know it, etc, etc. Can't we just spare each other the platitudes?
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
You understood!!!
You are the first one to understand!!!! :)

You don't know how happy you are making me now...! :)
I'm glad that you are happy. But I must point out that I only understand these intellectually, and do not experience any of it as true.

But your answer still falls short of what I am looking for - ie. hard info on this "re-birth" affair. Saying "we rebirth constantly" is a needless evasion. What I want is what you percieved in your satori. Is there any "re-birth" in a meaningful sense? Can one have a direct, undiminished transfer of one's mental faculties?

Pls don't respond with "we are never born, hence we never die" or "we return to the undivided whole", etc.

In own words:

What are words compared to experience...?

I can't explain it vary much in words... there are no words at all to explain it... I'll try as better as I can...

What I want is what you percieved in your satori.

Sure. Those are the words that come to me:
I experienced an incredible happiness, peace, I started to laugh and to cry of happiness, I could breath much better, no worries, a kind of "nothing" that is infinite in its Essence and a kind of "infinite" that is nothing in Essence... that was pretty strange... I felt connected with the world and with the Universe, with Nature, I felt pretty awakened, all my chackras were pulsating and hot, I experienced a high temperature of my body, started to sweat (once I sweated so much that I started to smell and had to take a shower afterwards... :D)... I felt a fresh "wind" flowing through my body, etc...

Basically this... :)

Is there any "re-birth" in a meaningful sense?

Yes, you feel renewed. :)

Can one have a direct, undiminished transfer of one's mental faculties?

...? In other words please... I'm not so good in English...

Love,
Nelson

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
...? In other words please... I'm not so good in English...

Love,
Nelson [/B] Nelson, your english is just fine. It's me who has a strange way of writing ....

What I was saying was - if you die today, can you be re-born with most of your memories, in a baby?

++++

I understand that you have had a spontaneous and unique experience. What I am curiuos about is this - Is what you percieve in satori, truth? Is there anything factual to the perceptions in satori? My current opinion is that it is simply a extremely feel-good experience, which has no essential truth behind it...

GOD,

What I was saying was - if you die today, can you be re-born with most of your memories, in a baby?

Yes. But not in words...
Words are rational. You learn them from organization. Words are essencial only for communication because you need a code that both people understand. But you don't need words only for yourself. Thus, memory is not allways in words. It can be in image, for example, and other kinds of things...

The unfortunate is that we very soon forget them. It seems that you forget right after you born...

Is what you percieve in satori, truth?

Seems so...

Is there anything factual to the perceptions in satori?
... sorry:(... in other words please...

My current opinion is that it is simply a extremely feel-good experience, which has no essential truth behind it...
Well... you know yourself better after the experience. And you have a highly improved intuition... and perception of reality... and selective thinking, common sense... :)

Love,
Nelson