I know this thread will probably be moved to a religious forum but I'd appreciate it if it wasn't because I'd like it to be answered by as many people as possible. (No disrespect just think that more people read general files than specific!)

I'm in the middle of writing a story which may well be published in the form of a book, but I have a question...

If God is all forgiving, what would happen if Satan said sorry?
What if the prince of darkness said 'Actually I fucked up big time and got it SO wrong!!!' What do you guys think would be the repercussions?

All thoughts greatly appreciated

:)

x x x x

If God is all forgiving, what would happen if Satan said sorry?
What if the prince of darkness said 'Actually I fucked up big time and got it SO wrong!!!'

why should Satan be sorry?

if the All knowing God created Everything then He knew what will happen in the future(otherwise he wouldnt be All knowing)
so He knew what Satan will turn out like and what He will do...,so God is the One to blame for Everything ;)
that is IF Xian GOD (http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/god.html) existed,which is obviously imposible

God and Satan are not real, there this question is purely hypothetical.

God and Satan are simply figures to personify good and evil. They were made up by people promoting religion. Therefore, to ask what would happen if Satan said sorry is invalid.

If God is all forgiving, what would happen if Satan said sorry?

God is all-forgiving for mankind, not a deposed androgynous Angel. God can be pissed at Satan for all eternity, but not Ted Bundy.

God and Satan are not real, there this question is purely hypothetical.

God and Satan are simply figures to personify good and evil. They were made up by people promoting religion. Therefore, to ask what would happen if Satan said sorry is invalid.

How can you be sure good and evil don't flow from God and satan?

The world would end. God's word is law and he sent the devil to hell for eternaty. So if he forgave him, he would have to go back on his world, thus destroying existance. But he HAS to forgive him, cause god forgives all.

I think.

Watch Dogma. Bartelby and Loki had the same issue i think

God would banish him into an eternity of non-existence.

How about as a species we grow up....

If my purpose in life lies in the hands of 2 outrageous characters then they can both get fucked for all I care. The fact that people around the world are actually killing each other over this point goes to show just what the completely pathetic cycles it will bring for the future.

All of those stories are thousands of years old and (really) has absolutley nothing to do with anything, besides the fact that they are purely fictional.

I hereby declare that my middle finger shall be raise in triumph towards a new Fundamentalist free future.

well according to bedazzled god and the devil regularly play chess.i dont think christianity stands up to logic very well,and i dont think it would be within the devil's (as it is described) capacity to express remorse for his actions as he is pure evil no?

using a Xian metaphor;
satan is a lost sheep, god will rejoice when he returns to the shepard.

How can you be sure good and evil don't flow from God and satan?

Because they don't exist. My point is that they are both nonexistent entities that personify good and evil, that is all.

As it is only according to Big G's propaganda that His Infernal Highness, Lucifer, Prince of Darkness is the bad one, perhaps it should be the other way round: Big G says "You're right, Lucy. I fucked up."

Thanks
Remember this question was raised to assist in a work of fiction, so try not to dismiss the concept too readily, Go with it as an idea. Smoke a joint and think about it :)
tanx

okaaay, catch ya later

God and Satan are not real, there this question is purely hypothetical.

God and Satan are simply figures to personify good and evil. They were made up by people promoting religion. Therefore, to ask what would happen if Satan said sorry is invalid.
Tough I don't agree with the abscence of God, I really like this comment. the question that quickly comes to my mind after reading this is: what is the nature of "good"? Are you "good" if you punish people for doing something "bad"? It is interesting how hard it is to deal with those non-absolute terms..... :eek:

He did forgive him, that's why God gave him the task of punishing bad human souls, and the realm of hell to rule. Otherwise, one would presume, he could have made him disappear.

The question i wonder about is "is the devil evil personified, or is he just evil?" Because, if he's evil, then he can change his ways. Being the personification of evil kinda doesn't allow for that change. I mean, to be lucifer is to be evil. And as lucifer was once one of the angels, that suggests the former rather than the latter be true.

Anyway, was there evil before there was lucifer?

Well, it all depends on your own opinion. I truly believe there is no good or evil. The key word here is selfishness, which can be observed in nature as caring about yourself first. I mean if you were satan, wouldn't you be pissed off at god for hogging all the fame and power, if you are just as strong. Well this is why religion is unbalanced. In the law of religion, good is always stronger than evil. However that is not the case. Every force has an equal and opposite force equal in magnitude. Therefore, god and satan must have equal powers. Besides, it entirely depends on how you define god. I really dont like the idea of fate because I have always observed that my choices influence my life 100%. I dotn like the idea of god because it ruins the idea of equality. Why should somebody have all the power in the universe? Why cant I have such powers? What is good or evil? Samething was debated in my thread "What is right or wrong?".

Right and wrong dont really exist in real terms. I think there are only places to stand.
An australian aborigini will feast on bugs dug out of a tree but many of us would honk at the idea. Is there a right or wrong involved here?
Certain tribes will not allow young men to pass into manhood without ingesting the semen of the elders. Here we incarcerate peadophiles and (from where I stand) quite rightly so. The tribesmen find that centuries of tradition stand fast in their belief system. who's right?
I didn't mean to open up such a eclesiastical debate What I meant more whas to invite you to imagine you're watching a film wherein the devil says sorry. Run the movie. What do you think would happen?

According to "Bedazzled" god and the devil regularly play chess.That would be a good movie for you to watch. Not the recent U.S. remake with Elizabeth Hurley as Satan, but the British 1960's original with Peter Cook as the devil. It's very iconoclastic and treats the devil as a real, and somewhat sympathetic, person. You might find some inspiration there, but you will for sure be highly entertained.

What stupidity..

You can't possible expect every thread/question to be equivalent to "whats your name?".

Goddamnit, Satan and God are fictional characters, but it does not change the fact that they represent the reflections from the basics of human cognition- good and evil.

And the presented community in which the formally presented 'qualities' reside are.. well.. WE!

So if satan would say sorry, what would god say?

That is a question that needs no pondering outside the methaphorical aspect in which it is placed.
"Blah blah, god does not exist".. yeah well, fuck you.

That has absolutely NO asset to the discussion at hand. This is not a question about delusional beliefs.
This is a question about Mr.1 who allways forgives and Mr.2 who allways deceives.
And when Mr.2 asks for forgiveness from Mr.1, does Mr.2 deceive or is he sincere? And is Mr.1 forced to forgive.. since he allways should, according to popular beliefs.

And as everyone knows the consensus between God and Beelzebub, we all come up with our own answers, eventhough it might not go hand to hand with your own beliefs.

We contribute our answers..UNLESS we of course decide to be dumb fucks that cant absorb the question.

My answer is this:
Satan is the deceiver, so he would most likely have a devious plan behind all that 'apology' bullshit.
muahahahahah

If God is all forgiving, what would happen if Satan said sorry?

Not much. As I understand it, doctrinal assertions of angelic free will are sketchy at best. The general consensus is that angels are without free will. Therefore, if Satan apologized, it would be according to plan, and whatever happened would be what is supposed to happen.

Colloquially, there is some strangeness to consider.

According to Christian evangelists, God's love is boundless, God's forgiveness complete. The question, of course, becomes, "Will the Devil be redeemed?"

Typically, the answer given by Christians is, "No, the Devil will not be redeemed." Reasons differ, but the strongest theme I've encountered asserts that the Devil would not apologize, would not repent, and thus cannot access the fruits of heaven.

The notion of repentance works well enough in a scheme where free will is asserted. The idea being that you come before God and if you believe, you enter, and if not, you don't. The human soul can repent before God.

Satan cannot.

Without free will, Satan cannot repent and therefore cannot be redeemed. And that would simply be God's will.

At the heart of it, the notion reads like a medical conspiracy of grand proportion. Something like scientists hiding cures in order to get grant money, despite the notion that the earnings for the discovered product would outweigh the grants. Essentially, if Satan repents, evil goes away, the separation between God and humanity disappears, and the whole pickle cart is blown.

And, as it is with God's will, this would be a good thing.

would satan actually wish to do so?. why would he want to? are the fruits of heaven what he desires when he has a tree of his own to feed from.

thevery question 'what's happen if satan said sorry?' presupposes the very premise which is false to begin with. that there is an 'all-good God' 'all-BAD-satan' needs to apologize TO

really anceintly they represent the light and dark times of the day and year. and werer 'Brothers'....it was the patriarchay who demonized the dark 'brother'

so i rephrase your question: what would happen if the patriarchy said sorry?

Some fine comments. I thank you.
The last few post have given me a lot to think about and write about. The other side of the coin is giving me an insight into what a given proportion of the population will react/repond to, ie what makes people emote? How can that emotion be triggered
my fictional piece has very little to do with the biblical interpretation of god and satan. It's, (I hope) brought up to date and made to reflect the ideals and sometimes the futilities of the world today.
As for the patriarchy saying sorry..
I think it was Pious the fifty twelfth who was called upon to renounce Hiltler and his regime. this of course, didn't happen, ( I think they renamed him pope gutless fucker the 1st)

[QUOTE=Lord_Phoenix] Therefore, god and satan must have equal powers.

Why would God make something that could threaten him. From a religious point of view, God is the creator and has supreme power over all that he has created. After all Satan was once an angel, and angels are created by God.

The Bible speaks of how good always triumphts over evil in the end.
Trust me, I have to listen to it every day in theology class.

Your statement is saying that satan is a god, because he is equal to the true God.

It makes no sense for a God to make a god.

I meen, would you make something just as strong as you.

In the fictional sense, we could of all been created out of chaos from a Satan Entity and our God is the one who saved us from a unstable elementary order.

The fact that this thing represents war, violence and that which we do not want naturally in our lives go to show that quite possibly our creator was created to save us from a Satan ruled lifestlye.

Quite possibly we are a lesser intellegent form of that which saved us..... well I recon anyways.

[QUOTE=Lord_Phoenix] Therefore, god and satan must have equal powers.

Why would God make something that could threaten him. From a religious point of view, God is the creator and has supreme power over all that he has created. After all Satan was once an angel, and angels are created by God.

The Bible speaks of how good always triumphts over evil in the end.
Trust me, I have to listen to it every day in theology class.

Your statement is saying that satan is a god, because he is equal to the true God.

It makes no sense for a God to make a god.

I meen, would you make something just as strong as you.

if you had a wife who was your partner your opposite and your complimentary would you want her to be less than you would you want to tell her how she should live and what is good and bad for her self, and would you cast her from your house until she repented of her evil ways.

i would if i was God, but i doubt God would believe Satan

if you had a wife who was your partner your opposite and your complimentary would you want her to be less than you would you want to tell her how she should live and what is good and bad for her self, and would you cast her from your house until she repented of her evil ways.

God wanted to create lower beings to worship him.

Why would you worship something that is no better than you

Thus God made man who is in a religious sense is made to live out the word and worship him

And a marriage is different
You don't worship a spouse

this post is about realtionships between God and man, not realtionships between Men and Women

God wanted to create lower beings to worship him.really? was that because he had low self esteem or something?


Why would you worship something that is no better than you are you asking why i would worship something that is no better than me? or are you asking why you should worship something that you dont think is worth worshipping?


And a marriage is different your right, but there are similarities, whiich i hoped you would recognise in the idea of a pair of opposites creating a union.


You don't worship a spouseyou are saying that 'I' dont worship 'a' spouse. do you actually mean me or are you using me to illustrate what you dont do, again?

really? was that because he had low self esteem or something?
undefinedNo his self esteem was fine, but why else would God create beings lower than him

are you asking why i would worship something that is no better than me? or are you asking why you should worship something that you dont think is worth worshipping?

undefinedThe first one, because neither you or I would spend our time worshiping someone that in no way is superior to us

your right, but there are similarities, whiich i hoped you would recognise in the idea of a pair of opposites creating a union.

I do recognise that, and in a sense your right, but like I said it is between man and supernatural force, not man and women


you are saying that 'I' dont worship 'a' spouse. do you actually mean me or are you using me to illustrate what you dont do, again?
undefinedNo one worhships another human being and thats where God comes in

In my opinion (assuming all of the doctrines of every main religion are ignored for a fictional book) since all things must earn their way into heaven- or at least humans- and angels are allowed to be there because they are all holy followers of God's will except for Lucifer, then since he broke the reason angles get to be in heaven and we lowly humans don't, God would make him earn it again by living a life as a human... I believe so that Satan didn't keep any possibly deceitful intentions through human life so that he may pretend to be faithful until heaven and then begin an uprising again, only his soul would live a human life but all knowledge of heaven, hell, and plots against God would be only that of other humans. This way his soul could be tested as any one else's in the basic form. Whether he would be an evil human or a decent one, you have to decide. Probably, since he had realised (assuming he was being truthful) his past's wrongness, the decency would carry over and he (or I guess he could be incarnated as a woman) would be a 'good' person. That last part would be more yours to decide, if you like my idea. You might want to read Towing Jehovah by James Morrow; it has little to do with this specifically, but it is a very unconventional book about our purpose and religion and what not that I thoroughly enjoyed.

shit, please ignor the f'd up red shit, I got screwed up
damn dog humping my leg :mad:

No his self esteem was fine, but why else would God create beings lower than himso 'to worship him' is the only answer you can find therefore it must be the right answer.

are you asking why i would worship something that is no better than me? or are you asking why you should worship something that you dont think is worth worshipping?

undefinedThe first one, because neither you or I would spend our time worshiping someone that in no way is superior to uswhy do you believe that you understand what i think/feel or what motivates/inspires me or anything else about me? because something is not right for you does not mean it is wrong for me, god, other humans or your dog.


undefinedNo one worhships another human being and thats where God comes inare you saying god comes in because human beings dont worship each other? what does he come in to?

Satan's not human, and would not be under the same pact that humans have ith God. Satan cannot get to God through Christ, because the devil's denied simply on by his creation.

Other than that, God is all powerful. All things outside of human free will fall under God's law, and God's power, the Devil included. So if the Devil does anything, it is out of God's wish.

Satan would drop to his belly before GOD, and begin to wallow like a littel girl.
Reaching out and kissing the feet of god, he would slowly tug his way up gods robe up unto his knees, begging for forgiveness. Explaining that he just wanted to be loved!!
Go looks down and hestitates, the devils head is buried in gods robe....god begins to outstretch his hand openly to be placed on satans head as a sign of forgiveness.
As gods hand approaches satans buried head, he stops once more to consider his forgiveness, God clenches his fist and the earth qaukes, and the waves rise!!
But then his hand again relaxes,...and opens gently, and proceeds to gently lay his hand upon satans head.
"Rise my son..."
Satan slowly lifts his eyes to meet gods, and a tear runs down satans cheek.
"Thank you father....*sniff*...I will make thee proud!"
"Now go my Son, do my bidding" God said...and turned to sit back on his throne.
Suddenly as God walked towrds his chair he felt a sudden pain in his chest, frozen paralyzed, he looks down to see three points of black arrow shaped metal protruding his chest.
God drops to his knees, and keels over to his side, and there standing over him is satan! "ha ha ha ha",....Ha Ha Ha Ha"....HAHAHAHAH.

Or he stays all good like and now satan and jesus are always fighting in the back seat of Gods car," Father!, Jesus is on my side of ther car again!"
And God will turn around "Me dammit!!!! If I have to stop this car one more time!!!!"

Then the applause signal will come on telling the audience to laugh.

What are we talking about again?

Roman, if you were saying that to dispute my suggestion (which I think you were...?), angels have to have some kind of free will, because Lucifer and other angels wanted to rise against God and Michael and his followers decided not to. God wouldn't want an uprising against himself just so he could make a point to all of the other angels who wouldn't rise up against him anyway because they're under his control. He wouldn't necessarily have to get to God through Christ; he would just have to live as a good person (I mean, I think the most wonderful person who had no opportunity to see Christianity is going to heaven, even if they don't know or believe in Christ), and I still don't see why Christ would want to deny a pure soul entry into heaven, even if its past is tainted. About him being all powerful, we will have to assume God is not omnitient. Considering Satan repenting is something that would not be normally possible by traditional Christian doctrine, saying He isn't all-knowing of the future won't hurt anything. Also, if He can't control humans' free will but He knows what everybody will do, then they don't have much free will because He created them knowing and purposefully creating exactly all of the decisions to be a certain way, that they will make 'freely.' That doesn't add up.Anyway, A soul is a soul and God can make Satan's soul compatible with a human body and life if he feels like it.

By George I think we're finally getting it!!:)

bbcboy, what's your name or the name of the book (if you've thought of one yet) that you might publish, because it's a pretty cool idea you had and I may want to read it whenever it may come out...and..uh...royalties if you use my idea...nah, just kidding, it's free, but I would like to know how to find it. Thanks.

For all of you who say souls can't go from heaven to hell or from hell to heaven after they've already been accepted into one, well, Lucifer was in heaven. Now he isn't. I'll leave you to figure out how that happened. I think that it could happen again with all souls, not just Lucifer's. And being accepted to heaven, then, isn't eternal easy-street so to speak...you could go back and forth from heaven to hell many times depending on the fluctuations of purity in the soul. I had a more insightful thing to say but I may have forgotten it. Well, I just had a funny idea. Maybe Michael (the one who led the resistance in defense of God against Lucifer) would get pissed off and question God and be sent to hell....like trading places. That would be pretty messed. Anyway...I feel like I'm the only one posting on this thread now, but I may post again when I remember my brilliant idea (even though it wasn't that good to begin with).

Do angels even have souls?
I've alwayws figued celestial beings as being merely extensions of God. God knew that when he created the the Most Beautiful One that he would one day turn against Him. God created the Devil, and the Devil's purpose was to oppose God. The devil COULD ask forgiveness, if the devil was allowed such things. But since the Devil is merely an extension of God, the Devil's really a puppet.

Either God is all powerful, and the Devil merely acts according to God's will (as all things must, excepting human choice), or God is not all powerful. I don't think there is a God, but according to His common definition, He's all powerful.

Humans were created with the express ability to choose between God and whatever else. Angels were created to serve. Even in disservitude, angels still serve, because they are servants. If God did not wish Satan to conspire against Him, or wished that the Devil be forgiven, or ask for forgiveness, it would happen. But God doesn't want it, so it won't happen.

I don't see why angels can't have free will as well. According to what you just said, all Christians and most people of any religion are very hypocritical as they blame the devil for things and portray him as evil; if it is really just an extension of God, shouldn't they consider God evil then? I'm not sure of the traditional idea of whether or not angels have souls or free will, but it makes more sense to me that they would have both. Otherwise, God could serve himself just fine, as He is all-powerful and doesn't need help or extra time or energy with anything.

Well, I'd argue that God does cause evil, as he allows it to exist. He created the Devil, knowing that the Devil would do bad, and lets the Devil go unchecked, and hurt good Christian folk. If you have the power to stop something without any effort, and you don't, what's that make you?
And of course Christians are hypocrites. They are so hypocritical it hurts.

And if angels have both soulds and free will, how are they any different from us humans?

And if angels have both soulds and free will, how are they any different from us humans?
they dont incarnate to physical form

i dont know...what are ya like....

listen...for a kick off. Angels are magic mushrooms........'angels' means 'messengers' but also --when the etymological source of 'angels' is studied transliterally, also means mushrooms....MAGIC mushrooms

patriarchal myth demonizes these magic mushrooms as the 'fallen angels' as it did with Satan--into the Devil

so put THat in your mushroom pipe and smoke it

Gee I wonder what else doesn’t incarnate into real physical form either?
Spiderman
Santa
Pink Space Unicorns
Blah
Blah
Blah
Ad infinitum . . .

Hmm. . . How about this instead Santa changes his name to Satan? Would Satan-Santa have to say sorry?

obviously a big difference between them and humans also then, thank you for pointing that out to me, that is really useful information that i never even thought about.

no, Angels do not have souls. that's what the whole fracas was about. Lucifer got jelous because those pesky younger siblings, people, got souls, and angels didn't.

More than likely Angels do have free will, as God loved Lucifer up until the moment Lucifer rose against him. Thus he was unaware of Lucifer's plan (and on a side note, obviously not all-knowing).


yuri_sakazaki: in college, I wrote a story based on *exactly* the same idea you proposed! Great minds think alike, eh?

It was about a guy who had a serious drive to help people and be good, but had to battle with this internal feeling of glee when he witnessed or took part in hurting people.
ends up working as an emergency care worker, and has to fight his impulses to let some people die just to watch their hope fade away.
You find out later that he is satan, or better, satan's attempt to live as a human and earn a soul for all angels. As part of being truely human, doubt is required, so he is without any memory of being Lucifer.
I doubt I still have a copy of it :( but I'll look around.

river-wind: yes, good idea indeed =P If you find it (and it's not too long; I have about four books I have waiting around needing to be read because I'm lazy), post and I'd be glad to read. I used to write some but it was mostly just crap (I was fourteen at the time, fifteen now), so it would be nice to read something good with similar ideas to mine.

YURI
My story at the moment is called 'Mrs Bennet' I'm not gonna go into too much detailright now but a womans husband dies in bizarre circumstances and she begins to see things hear things and experience things which are so off the wall they're untrue!
Thing is the devil had taken refuge inside her husbands mind and as he was on the phone to her the moment he died he now lives in her heaad instead.
So you see all the theories on what god does are inconsequential. Fuck god It;'s the devil I'm interested in!!! :)

Ok.....i Will!

bbcboy, that's disappointing to hear; in my opinion your original idea is much more interesting. Oh, well. And your name? Hard to find a book without an author's name.