For a while now i've been on tese boards and have variously tried to speak about sacramental religios experience.
For many they have tirned a blind eye deaf ear to what i hae tried to communicate..........
i am not surprised. I remember myself before i had suc experience. let me explain--by 'sacramental', i mean psychedelics experience

when i was a young teenager, in one of the senstational Sunday newspapers, they were reviewing the extreme;ly controversial book by JM.Allegro, titled The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. At the time it kinda went over my head. I had no idea what psychedelic experiene was like, so---i really was just titlated by the booksreferences to 'glans penises/ie., mushroom caps metaphors' etc etc, like I am sure many of te oter readers were....!

So i can very well understand even adults who hafeneve had psychedelic/sacramental experience to not...'get it'. bit like trying to explain to a child hat fallin in love is like. i am not being patronizing, i promise. just first thing came to me

But even so, i feel it is extraordinarily important to explore about this for te very reason, i have gleaned, that mythology itself has grown from our species' sacramental experience!

so this thread maaaay be very long. even if nt many pf you find interest in it. i,if not crucified--hehe-touchwood--will explore it anyway, and i hope to attract interst to, even from those just curious

This is a vast subject which is of course interdisciplinary. i hate specialization anyhow

One of the main barriers to our understanding of mythology is LITERALISM. This is the accepted belief that mythoogy should be understood superficially--its surface literarary narrative, But this is not so. Mythology is created in layers.

Actually in prepatriarchal times there was 'magical script/ which was mainly of symbols communicating the interelatedness of polar reality. The images were to communicate a deeper understanding of reality . Think of it as visual poetry. For example a serpent would be associated with various things, like how it sloughsoff its skin and is continually renewing itself---what might this represent?---How it moves. where it lives, how it arises from the ground, like a phallic-mushroom, its poisonous bite, which also in some species, the venom has psychedelic properties. All tewse assocations and more form preliterate mythology. NOw, add wings to te serpent and this communicates something else. and so on. I will give example of the meaning of tese images later on. Bt tis is just to explore te beginnings of te idea of layers of maning in mythology, in this case benevolent

When the patriarchy begins making abstract symbols, is when we get literacy. and in mythology LITERALISM. They too will appropriate these primal images from a much older stream, and using written language try and subvert their meaning, in different layers!

Agreat exaple of tis patriarchal deviceis in their --again-- approriated myth of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. For the IMAGESwere taken from much oler myths whic were prepatriarchal----images such as the Garden, the Tree, Serpent, Flowing Streams, the man/god the woman/Goddess
the Fruit

in the previous understandings of tese images they were benevolent, but te patriarchy subverts their meaning, deliberately making them negative!

Briefly, in theoriginary symbolism, te Fruit is the sacrament, which is guarded by the Serpent of te Tree, and in Garden is Goddess and her son/lover. The Fruit ifs freely offered to all who respectfully seek it, so as to exprience ecstatic exprience and be reborn afresh in the Grden of Immortality

But what the writers of Genesis do is demonize the Serpent, the woman/Goddess, ad cursemankind for being seduced to eat te sacrament. it is in other words PROPAGANDA writ on several layers of meaning, but te superofical story is understood by all reeaders to mean the PREVIOUS archaic mythology is evil, and the new patriarchy is now BOSS!

you simply MUST--ifyou can find the time in your busy busy worlds you have accepted and tryand fit your children into ad nauseum --reead this:
From Orphism to Gnosticism
www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/ukraine/231/dionysian/orphism.html

why?

why, because it will reveal to you a M A J R O psychological Transition which goes from a celebratory understanding of sacramental experience to a dualistic one. where Nature becomes divided from 'heaven' and the 'spirit
..In ancient Greece, the last vestiges of the Goddess Religion of the Earth, Dionysianism, which had open celebratory ek-stasis, was reformed by the dire philosophic mindset of a group calling them selves Orphics, after their 'hero', Orpheus.
anyway try and explore wat is said there

in the last 500 years a mindset which began in England via the so-called Enlightenment has modified this divisive mindset to a fine tuned dead mechanical bent.
They have actually seen to it to enclose te common land, te seas, te airspace, the electromagnetic specturm, and bioology itself--into commodified chunks which are ten property of the few to make 'profit' out of.
But LISTE also cnsciouuness is included in teir greedy evil dealings

Think of what they have done/are doing to the wilds---wild Nature. they are cutting it up, paving it over, poisoning it, monoculturing it. stamping on anything in its bulldozing path. plants, trees, springs, ecosystems, wild animals, ........

well, rthey have dont/are doing same to our consciousness. our wild free freedom of consciosness. they rather want just your PRODUCTIVE side so as to carry on their profit-making schemes. Kidding us that this is 'progress'. is that so. i am seeing poisoning, and misery.

so as i am seeing it, something distrous has happened and is continuuing to happen. the bones of it is tat may of us have lost contact with the land. many of us have to live in concrete hovels, and/or are sooo rushin around franiically tryin to survive there is no s p a c e anymore. not only to look out up the amazing skies, trannsfoming all the time, at trees, flowers, animals, colours, and so on, but to even communicate with others in meaningful ways. ...its rather people rushin round wit a moblie stuck to teir ear, and driving nd work work work. for what??????
where's it all lading? anyone take time to think? are you happy now. with what is happening in the world? can you sense distress and need to escape?

sacramental exprience is the deeply entering into te pimal nownes. it isn't the nowness of rantic rushround culture, but te dynamic process of Nature. that which SUSTAINS ---the SOURCE

So.. if I understand your posts correctly..

You're saying life sucks nowadays so we all should all smoke pot?

No, shes saying humans are meant to be running around naked, hunting, and gathering and it's unhealthy for us to live in the environments we have made for ourselves... and this might be true.

She is also suggesting hallucinagenic drugs to help us with this 'health' issue.

Just because something is meaningful in a certain state of mind, and not in others doesn't mean that it wasn't a real breakthrough. What Duendy is talking about is the way religion was practiced for tens of thousands of years...

Just because something is meaningful in a certain state of mind, and not in others doesn't mean that it wasn't a real breakthrough. What Duendy is talking about is the way religion was practiced for tens of thousands of years...
unless you both have, or ether of you, have already, can i encourage you to read this---it's very interesting:

GLOBAL VISION: WHEN THE DREAM BECOMES REAL: CHAPTER 1 www.global-vision.org/dream/dreamch1.html

i really was just titlated by the booksreferences to 'glans penises/ie., mushroom caps metaphors' etc etc, like I am sure many of te oter readers were....!
come on just cause you have fascination with penii doesnt mean everybody will.

that aside, i am planning an experiment with some morning glory seeds have you ever tried them?

No, shes saying humans are meant to be running around naked, hunting, and gathering and it's unhealthy for us to live in the environments we have made for ourselves... and this might be true.

She is also suggesting hallucinagenic drugs to help us with this 'health' issue.The drugs aside, I heard that shoes can cause backpain because they weeken the feet. Working in the medical field I should probably research this but as it fit well with this post.... I suppose shoes are one of those things that stop us from runing around naked and subsequently fuck our backs up.

So my kind of religious question is..... anyone know of a good pair of shoes?

Cheers,
Michael

PS: Thats a real question :m:

PPS: Yes a few beers :)

No, shes saying humans are meant to be running around naked, hunting, and gathering and it's unhealthy for us to live in the environments we have made for ourselves... and this might be true.

Well, let's just check statistics. To my knowledge the average life expectancy has increased an extreme amount if we were to compare modern day to the times when we were, perhaps, running around naked as hunters. Indeed our life expectancy is greater now than it was a mere 100 years ago.

Admittedly we have scientific/medical advances to thank for a lot of that, but those advances were not made by eating magical 'shrooms. Indeed every person I know or have met that is into their 'shrooms and smoke are actually pretty much brain dead. They can barely tie their own shoelaces let alone improve medical science and the quality of life. Not to mention that the one person that comes on this forum telling everyone to dabble with 'shrooms is the one person that cannot type a three letter word without fucking it up.

It's no coincidence.

come on just cause you have fascination with penii doesnt mean everybody will.

me))))hahaha....

that aside, i am planning an experiment with some morning glory seeds have you ever tried them?

me))))no. be carful. once i read that the ones you puchchase from regular shops have been contaminated with a poison....? because they knew people were experimenting with them. are they organic. if any doubts contact www.erowid.com ---really realy great people there. blew me away. i emailed them and said i ha limited system and couldn't access their 'what's new', and i got such friendly reponse and they actually changed page...!

Well, let's just check statistics. To my knowledge the average life expectancy has increased an extreme amount if we were to compare modern day to the times when we were, perhaps, running around naked as hunters. Indeed our life expectancy is greater now than it was a mere 100 years ago.

me))))))ohgoawwwwd---the 'we are livingloonger now' diatribe. yes true, but many pople aredead from te ground UP wirtth stress, worry, bordedom, alienation.
look...did you even READ that link? are you in my thread to learn or fukin do what yu usually do? did you read thelink. give crit what ever...just contribute somethingworthwhile, yeah?

Admittedly we have scientific/medical advances to thank for a lot of that, but those advances were not made by eating magical 'shrooms. Indeed every person I know or have met that is into their 'shrooms and smoke are actually pretty much brain dead. They can barely tie their own shoelaces let alone improve medical science and the quality of life. Not to mention that the one person that comes on this forum telling everyone to dabble with 'shrooms is the one person that cannot type a three letter word without fucking it up.
me))i dont believe your nasty propganda. i also know people who have had psychedelic experience, etc and they dont fit our vile cynical desriptor. so UNTI i were tomeet these unknown--possibly nonexistent--people you slander, we will believe it t be the latter.
YES, it IS true people can abuse psychedelics. THA is why i am bringing about this inot debate and spurcing people to LOST history as is revealed in the link i offered. so quit it with your war on drugs propaganda. i can see right thru it.
....Ad a bit mo about your congratualting your 'heroic' mindset's keepin people livin....and livin, and livin. ever seen some of these poor old people stuck in gruesom 'old peoples homes' lately. jeeezus. you dont thinkthey'd like to be able to slip off with dignity. the whole impetus for long life via 'medical science' is the fear of death. our anceint ancestors--prepatriarchal ancestors had not the same fear as when patriarchy took over, and with 'us' moderns!

It's no coincidence.
try and getover your dry cynical self in my sanctuary.......here,try some of this

duendy how can you be so intelligent?
areyou

- courage

i know why. because you want to.

edit: i'll go out in nature to eat a mushroom.

Hmmm, the response about writing down the word "enlightenment" is missing, C7ityi must have deleted it.

It reminded me of something by Alan Watts, where he mentioned "the smell of burnt almonds", and how even such a statement can be an expression of a transcendent thought, even though it doesn't make much sense literally. I couldn't find the transcript of it on the internet, but I have an mp3.

Hmmm, the response about writing down the word "enlightenment" is missing, C7ityi must have deleted it.

It reminded me of something by Alan Watts, where he mentioned "the smell of burnt almonds", and how even such a statement can be an expression of a transcendent thought, even though it doesn't make much sense literally. I couldn't find the transcript of it on the internet, but I have an mp3.
If anyone wants to explore Alan Watts take on sacramental experience, a JEWEL of a book of his about this is called 'The Joyous Cosmology: Adventures in the Chemistry of Consciousness
the book also has wonderful illustrations of natural objects and their patterned markings

me))))no. be carful. once i read that the ones you puchchase from regular shops have been contaminated with a poison....? because they knew people were experimenting with them. are they organic. if any doubts contact www.erowid.com ---really realy great people there. blew me away. i emailed them and said i ha limited system and couldn't access their 'what's new', and i got such friendly reponse and they actually changed page...!
yeah theyre organic, nice site!!

i recommend pople interested in tis thread's subject checkout the link above 'Global Vision'.......itis a primer in te real meaning of mythology
As explored mentioned, previously, originally myth was preliteral, and more IMAGE than literal. Observation of Nature and feeling was its source.

Of course, sacramental experience deepens observational capacity extraordanarily. And as sense of the interconnectedness of reality cn be deeply experienced. Interconnectedness ion observation can include all forms of dimension, and this sense would be commincated in 'magical script'--a language of the Goddess preexisting Sumerian cuneiform type of symbolic communications.

From my own experience, it can be quite tedious to read literal works when having taken sacraments. you CAN,and it can be intense, but you are MUC more intereted in observing organic forms, events, colourse, and what i would describe as---interdimensional action. by tis i mean seeing THROUGH social facades/masks.
Also polar related insight and synchronicity also feature

in modern lingo one could say one is seeing through the 'matrix'--type of thing. I am aware of that film of same name, and there are several interpreations o it. The most convincing to date i've read is from a supposed ex-Illuminati person, who said it is very refelcting all about that.
Bit what i mean by ---and hehe, i will now cal it PAtrix--reason being i am sick of words beginning with MA--root word of 'mama/moter' being used in a denigrating manner--ie., in Eastern philosophy we have the denigrated concept of 'Maya' meaning illusion of creation, and in Zen 'MAra' meaning delusion-----digressing. one time i actually joined an online Zen forum, to see where tey were t. i mentioned sacramenta, and was told by a Zennist they were forbidden--and/or notpromoted. i asked why ands he said , because they can entangle one in mara. i looed the etymology of that term up, and one definition was 'Goddess of Evil'. when i brought this back to thezennist he said they translated it as 'delusion'!
what he meant was getting entangled with material reality in a deep way. THIS is the patriarchal fear of 'engulfment'

ohgoawwwwd---the 'we are livingloonger now' diatribe

Ok, all the girly whining aside, do we or do we not live longer now?

yes true

Thank you.

but many pople aredead from te ground UP wirtth stress, worry, bordedom, alienation.

So these people, (which can well include everyone because we all have moments of boredom, worry and stress), should eat magic mushrooms?

look...did you even READ that link? are you in my thread to learn or fukin do what yu usually do?

You might notice that my very first post here was a question. Of course you didn't answer it. Luckily someone else did.

I then refuted the idea on several grounds - to which you have come back with a bit of whining and "but people have stress" as some kind of justification for telling everyone to eat 'shrooms and run around naked.

give crit what ever...just contribute somethingworthwhile,

I did. I pointed out some cold hard facts. You just don't like it.

try and getover your dry cynical self in my sanctuary

Hey, it's that moment where we get to give each other advice heh? K, here's mine for you: When in "my sanctuary".. learn to fucking type.

Ok, all the girly whining aside, do we or do we not live longer now?

me)))))this 'living longer' is what you materialists shout the loudest, as thpugh it is a great thing. that you havebeaten Nature. cause that's howi see the patriarchal trip. you want to 'put-right- Nature, eventually maybeeven trying to defeat death, and aging....riiight?
so, mr snakelord, what have we got in your brave new world, hey? well i see too many of us. that soon its gonna be overburdened with oldies. tat may old peple would pobably like to die. but can cause they are bullied to stay alive with 'help' of medical science. MEANWHILE Nature's resources become overburdened ith mo and more people keepin on tayin alive, gobbling up more food, fuel, mo space.
As i said, this all stems from lack of awareness of sustainability, of need for balance, for other spcies, future generations of our own, AND F E A R of death. For pre-scientific patriarhcals this mean fear of post-mortem---'hven or hell', ad not it's fear of ..nothing'?? meaninglessness. no enae of continuum with natrual world and community. hence te selfish grabbin of life. live longer. gotta live longer. must must. cause te doctor told me so. yeah??



Thank you.



So these people, (which can well include everyone because we all have moments of boredom, worry and stress), should eat magic mushrooms?

me)))how do you read snakelord. take offa your cynical specs and learn to read wit insight. your interpretation is gross and superficial and silly.
Bet any money you didn't real tat global-vision link. for if so you may have gleaned that many people really do have distress, and generally more and more people are on so-called psychiatric 'medication', living frantic meaningless lives saturated wit consumerism, being manipulated by oppressive powers. just cause you aren't aware of tis doesn't mean others aren't or dont feel it.
how can i communicae with you about tis with your attitude. you who dont even absorb whats been said already, or looks at links? how....?



You might notice that my very first post here was a question. Of course you didn't answer it. Luckily someone else did.

me)))you man tat aburd provocative---'why dont we all smoke dope all day?' or something like that? hardly worth me time mate.

I then refuted the idea on several grounds - to which you have come back with a bit of whining and "but people have stress" as some kind of justification for telling everyone to eat 'shrooms and run around naked.

me)))well, tellus then . why do YOU tink people hafve stress, and there is more an more of it in mdern world? and what would be your approach to this exstential problem?



I did. I pointed out some cold hard facts. You just don't like it.

me)))we have had enough of your mechancial mindsets' 'cold hard facts'. cold hard facts come from a cold hard rigid brain!



Hey, it's that moment where we get to give each other advice heh? K, here's mine for you: When in "my sanctuary".. learn to fucking type.
wen i AM, if i DO, i will fink about it

So, i have made up a term, 'the 'PATRIX'----see abovepost wherei talk about this. to reiterate, i qas going to use term 'matrix' but suddenly thoght of patrix. reason i dont want to use matrix for what i'm about to explore is tat, from the PAtriarchal perspective they view Nature as a trap, a seductice--always female--temptress enticing 'mle heroic spirit' away from his goal--the 'pure spirit'. so for example we have the
eastern terms/interpretations, 'MAya' and 'MAra' to mean 'illusion' and delusion'---ie., Nature-entanglement'engulfment' of th 'male mind'. 'matrix has definition, 'female womb'. so i have rather decided to use theterm 'PAtrix' to describe the patrirchal cage that oppresses, not just us, but all other species, and Nature itself. THAT is what i want to now explore:

where do we begin?
a really fascinating book called 'Shamanism: TheFoundations of Magic', by Ward Ruterford, argues that te male heroic fear of te female begins, or is prominent in male-heavy shamanism....!
The may surpise many people, because it's assumed that shamanism is our oldest spiritual primal beginnings. but not so. for shamanism came from Goddess stream.

According to Rutherford, male shamanism typically sawthe more open Goddess vegetative religious rituals here everyone becomes 'possessed' as a threat to his authority, and that his great enimies were female goddesses, usually 'underground' and at te bottom of the sea, etc.
Ruterford also stresses that shamanic revivals have always been with te well-off people, the middle classes, whilst Goddess orietned orgiastic rituals , with people of theland, women, slaves, dark-skinned people and so on.
let me explore difference between 'orgia' and shamanic ritual. in the former, ALL participants would eat a sacrament and have communal group ecstatic expression,in a celebratory way. where shamanic culture it is usually the shaman who performs the role as contacter of 'spirit world' or being 'possessed' etc
This not to say that in the Goddess steam there wouldn't have been shamns, usuall women. i am meaning when a RIVALRY happens between MALE-oriented shamanism and Goddess vegeatative religion. then happens a rift.
For when male authroritarianism happens in the rooe of te shaman 'middle-man' who claims only he can contact an 'invisible world', surely that is when this disenfranschises people from theirOWn ecstatic direct participatory freedoms. and this maybe the bluep-rint for patriarchal religions where we ALS have middlemen between us and actual sacramenal xperience....

more. mucx more to xplore about this PATRIX....later...

feel free to join in an get yer feet wet

me)))))this 'living longer' is what you materialists shout the loudest, as thpugh it is a great thing. that you havebeaten Nature. cause that's howi see the patriarchal trip. you want to 'put-right- Nature, eventually maybeeven trying to defeat death, and aging....riiight?

Well, I've never really considered myself a "materialist", and nor have I really ever given much thought to living forever. Indeed, I am generally against any life that is even remotely eternal. While I love my family, and do enjoy life to it's fullest, I don't really see the value in living for 50 billion billion gazillion years. The 80 or so years is pretty much fine with me, other than the fact that for the first 20 years we're stupid and for the latter 20 years we are probably crippled or mentally devoid. For another 13 or so years we're asleep.. and that is where my quarrel lies.

However, it's well worth noting that the fact I posted had nothing to do with materialism or eternal life. I do believe I mentioned this on my last post, and can only suggest that you take the time to read it.

so, mr snakelord, what have we got in your brave new world, hey?

Well, certainly a lot more than naked people running round eating 'shrooms.

well i see too many of us. that soon its gonna be overburdened with oldies.

Where is the relevance to running round naked eating 'shrooms?

me)))how do you read snakelord. take offa your cynical specs and learn to read wit insight. your interpretation is gross and superficial and silly.

My response is based upon the answer I got concerning the question I asked with relevance to your piss-poor written post. If I have gone wrong somewhere, it is undoubtedly because you failed to answer the question I asked you. Instead I had to rely on someone elses answer - because they had the decency to answer it. If they're wrong, let them know - and let me know so I can ammend my post. As for my 'specs', they're not the best brand ever and as such give trouble when trying to decipher 2 year olds writing. If you want to be understood Duendy.. make the fucking effort.

for if so you may have gleaned that many people really do have distress, and generally more and more people are on so-called psychiatric 'medication', living frantic meaningless lives saturated wit consumerism, being manipulated by oppressive powers. just cause you aren't aware of tis doesn't mean others aren't or dont feel it.

As a psychiatrist, I see more of that every single day than you'll see in a lifetime. Your links are not really news to me - and yet I still find myself wondering what any of this has to do with running round naked eating 'shrooms.

Btw, I accept your apology for making such a blatant error in your teeny weeny opinion of what I am or am not aware of.

how can i communicae with you about tis with your attitude. you who dont even absorb whats been said already, or looks at links? how....?

I actually absorb everything - albeit I have a harder time doing so when the writing is as bad as yours is, but this isn't about attitude.. it's discussion. I was told you believe people should be running around naked eating 'shrooms. I have refuted this notion briefly and you have problem with that while being clearly unable to say why.

It is hardly my fault if I do not understand your posts. My 6 year old girl has a better grasp of writing than you do. I remember you already telling me that you type the way you do because, to paraphrase, you're damn lazy. If you expect a decent discussion, I expect you to type in a manner that is legible. If you don't do that, who is to blame if I don't understand exactly what you're trying to say?

me)))you man tat aburd provocative---'why dont we all smoke dope all day?' or something like that? hardly worth me time mate.

A) We ain't "mates".

B) Given the disgusting writing that you used, I needed to ask the question. That was about as much as I could grasp from it. Look at any and every post you've written and you'll see what I mean.. "tat aburd" <-- what the fuck is that?

The problem lies right there.


me)))well, tellus then . why do YOU tink people hafve stress, and there is more an more of it in mdern world? and what would be your approach to this exstential problem?

Firstly: I would ask that you justify your claim that there is more stress in the modern world.

Secondly: People have always and will always have stress. It comes with life.

Thirdly: The "approach" is generally different for everyone. Some drink themselves stupid, some.. like you.. eat magic mushrooms, some become religious, and some, (or I would be out of a job), go to see shrinks. While the former examples are the faster way to "forgetting" your problems, they are not a solution.

If you are trying to get me to advocate eating 'shrooms before getting professional help you might aswell pull up a chair, 'cause you're gonna be here a long time.

me)))we have had enough of your mechancial mindsets' 'cold hard facts'. cold hard facts come from a cold hard rigid brain!

Perhaps, but better a rigid brain than one that rattles about in the skull - and slips out the ear when you're not looking.

what should one believe? patriarchal mushrooms, atheism, agnostic, islam, christianity, buddhism or... just myself?

everyone says they're right, and that i should follow them, but i can't follow everyone. so it just means... everyone's right and everyone follows themselves. "i am the way, truth and life"

---

duendy, why do you oppress machines and computers?! they're also alive and part of your living matter-energy nature, right?

i agree with you that everything is alive, so don't be angry at me.

Well, I've never really considered myself a "materialist", and nor have I really ever given much thought to living forever.

me)))do you believe consciousness is a product of the brain? do you not keep harpin on about how much longer we live now?

Indeed, I am generally against any life that is even remotely eternal. While I love my family, and do enjoy life to it's fullest, I don't really see the value in living for 50 billion billion gazillion years. The 80 or so years is pretty much fine with me, other than the fact that for the first 20 years we're stupid and for the latter 20 years we are probably crippled or mentally devoid. For another 13 or so years we're asleep.. and that is where my quarrel lies.

However, it's well worth noting that the fact I posted had nothing to do with materialism or eternal life. I do believe I mentioned this on my last post, and can only suggest that you take the time to read it.

Well, certainly a lot more than naked people running round eating 'shrooms.

me))))))whata wit this ' naked people running round eating mushrooms'-?? i am not doing tis. people i know who have partaken musrhoom sacraments aren't doing this---though you CAN of curse. so what is this constant descriptor about....? hey?

Where is the relevance to running round naked eating 'shrooms?

me))agin. see it!


My response is based upon the answer I got concerning the question I asked with relevance to your piss-poor written post. If I have gone wrong somewhere, it is undoubtedly because you failed to answer the question I asked you. Instead I had to rely on someone elses answer - because they had the decency to answer it. If they're wrong, let them know - and let me know so I can ammend my post. As for my 'specs', they're not the best brand ever and as such give trouble when trying to decipher 2 year olds writing. If you want to be understood Duendy.. make the fucking effort.

me))))apart from not grasping what's been said, and being able t read te LINKS? yu seem to be doin alright understanding me. so pullleze stop making it an issue. i am so familiar with THAt ploy. it is borng
and if you suffer so. go away. why keep coming back....?


As a psychiatrist,

me))))))ahhhhh A psychiatrist hey...?

I see more of that every single day than you'll see in a lifetime. Your links are not really news to me - and yet I still find myself wondering what any of this has to do with running round naked eating 'shrooms.

me))))howmany times now, 5, 7,.22? "running round naked eatng'shrooms'
i MIGHT count from your first post. if i get incredibly bored that is.

Btw, I accept your apology for making such a blatant error in your teeny weeny opinion of what I am or am not aware of.



I actually absorb everything - albeit I have a harder time doing so when the writing is as bad as yours is, but this isn't about attitude.. it's discussion. I was told you believe people should be running around naked eating 'shrooms.[[[[[[[[YET AGIN!!!]]]]]]]

I have refuted this notion briefly and you have problem with that while being clearly unable to say why.

It is hardly my fault if I do not understand your posts. My 6 year old girl has a better grasp of writing than you do. I remember you already telling me that you type the way you do because, to paraphrase, you're damn lazy. If you expect a decent discussion, I expect you to type in a manner that is legible. If you don't do that, who is to blame if I don't understand exactly what you're trying to say?

me)))likei said. itis NOT that i am 'lazy' it is combination of me playing wit type/text and a crap keyboard, and limited time when online. so theres pressure. tis is alst time i will tell you. IF you findme so illegible, then go...a----way then.

A) We ain't "mates".

me))ok mate

B) Given the disgusting writing that you used, I needed to ask the question. That was about as much as I could grasp from it. Look at any and every post you've written and you'll see what I mean.. "tat aburd" <-- what the fuck is that?

me))))))'disgusting' now. oh dear. next you'll be having me taken awaaay. is it a 'disORDER' yet?! is it errr drugable offence against mental hygene.
whaddyyasay?

The problem lies right there.

me))righr....em where?

Firstly: I would ask that you justify your claim that there is more stress in the modern world.

me)))))power freaks like you.

Secondly: People have always and will always have stress. It comes with life.

me))))))oh yer talkin ottayer arse. just coming out wit meaningless declarations

Thirdly: The "approach" is generally different for everyone. Some drink themselves stupid, some.. like you.. eat magic mushrooms, some become religious, and some, (or I would be out of a job), go to see shrinks. While the former examples are the faster way to "forgetting" your problems, they are not a solution.

me))pity the ones who visitsuch peopl like yourself for 'help'. i find your manner mot unfriendly an un-openminded.

If you are trying to get me to advocate eating 'shrooms before getting professional help you might aswell pull up a chair, 'cause you're gonna be here a long time.

me))))))yes in your wrld everyone needs 'professional help' dont they?
are you famiiliar wit te horrendous history of the psychiatric establishment pr chance...???!

Perhaps, but better a rigid brain than one that rattles about in the skull - and slips out the ear when you're not looking.
oh THAT old cliche...........

i wonder...
who will win. who is the best.
duendy or snakelord.

SORRY ABOUT CAPLOCK c7
I THINK DUENDY WILL WIN DUENDY IS STUBBORN AS WORN OUT OLD BULL AND SNAKE LORD IS FILLED WITH HIS OWN SELF WORTH, SNAKE WILL GET BORED OF RELENTLESSLY ABUSING DEUNDY WHO WILL TAKE IT FORM ALL ANGLES WITHOUT FLINCHING.

do you not keep harpin on about how much longer we live now?

I mentioned it once in response to another users post, so no.. I don't keep "harpin on about it". I wouldn't really have to say all this if you learnt to pay attention. However, as we're on the subject, and as a non-materialist, please.. do tell me how eating magic mushrooms is better than living longer.

me))))))whata wit this ' naked people running round eating mushrooms'-??

You'd know the answer to that if you had have paid any attention to this thread. I asked a question, you couldn't be bothered answering and so someone else did. Your post was summed up as saying that we should all be running around naked eating mushrooms. If that is wrong then A) It's not only me that can't understand you, and B) You should mention it to both me and the person that answered for you, and C) when you have something to say make sure you do it in a way that can be understood.

so what is this constant descriptor about....? hey?

Wakey, wakey my little naive Duendy girl.

go away. why keep coming back....?

Because you're a spastic I should ignore you? It's not like that in my profession. We point out people's problems, we don't just ignore them.

me)))likei said. itis NOT that i am 'lazy' it is combination of me playing wit type/text and a crap keyboard, and limited time when online. so theres pressure. tis is alst time i will tell you.

Don't make me go searching through your posts just to paste where you said you couldn't be bothered trying to type properly.

When you say "crap keyboard", I'm not exactly sure what you mean.. Is it missing keys or what?

me))))))'disgusting' now. oh dear. next you'll be having me taken awaaay.

Oh please, stop being so melodramatic. Your typing skills are dire. That's not to say you'll be "taken away", but that your typing skills are dire. I take it your reading skills ain't too good either.

me))righr....em where?

"righr" there.

me)))))power freaks like you.

That's hardly a justification. Try again.

me))))))oh yer talkin ottayer arse. just coming out wit meaningless declarations

So you disagree with my statement? Please.. explain.

me))pity the ones who visitsuch peopl like yourself for 'help'. i find your manner mot unfriendly an un-openminded.

This is not my office Duendy and you, luckily, are not my patient. This is a place where I can forget work and just discuss issues as and when I want to. Got it?

me))))))yes in your wrld everyone needs 'professional help' dont they?

Not at all. While I will say everyone at times in their life could use a "chat", I do see a big difference between the two. As an example I would mention a woman that is under some stress because her doctors believe her pregnancy to be ectopic. Her talking to me does not mean she needs "professional help", but that she needs to get her feelings out in the open. It can help a great deal - and is by and large more beneficial than taking a large dose of hallucinogen.

are you famiiliar wit te horrendous history of the psychiatric establishment pr chance...???!

While we're on the subject let me just mention medical history. Only a little while ago, (In the grand scheme of time), if you had a headache, doctors would chop your scalp off believing it was demons. Yes.. medical history is horrendous.. Are you really advocating that medical history is horrendous now because it once was?

While this is a relevant analogy, I hope it makes the point.

I mentioned it once in response to another users post, so no.. I don't keep "harpin on about it". I wouldn't really have to say all this if you learnt to pay attention. However, as we're on the subject, and as a non-materialist, please.. do tell me how eating magic mushrooms is better than living longer.

me)))))have YOU ever eat magic mushrooms?
WHY do you imagine i am ONLY referring to magic mushrooms when i say 'sacraments'?
i asked you previously a simple question: do you blieve consciousness is a product of the brain?if not what?

You'd know the answer to that if you had have paid any attention to this thread. I asked a question, you couldn't be bothered answering and so someone else did. Your post was summed up as saying that we should all be running around naked eating mushrooms. If that is wrong then A) It's not only me that can't understand you, and B) You should mention it to both me and the person that answered for you, and C) when you have something to say make sure you do it in a way that can be understood.

m)))oh dear oh deary me. what IS wrong with your attitude dude. you HELP pople hey.....? oh i see.
As far as i recall i haven't implied one 'runs round naked' after eating shrooms or any sacrament. that is YOUR interpretation--'sum up' as you call it.....tho i am sure people do, and it is very pleasureable. hafve YOU had the pleasure?

Wakey, wakey my little naive Duendy girl.

Because you're a spastic I should ignore you? It's not like that in my profession. We point out people's problems, we don't just ignore them.

me))do you call your 'patients'/'clients?' 'spastics?...just curious? and do you not feel it is an ofense to actual peple, derogatorally referred to as 'spastics' to use it as a put-down term....?

Don't make me go searching through your posts just to paste where you said you couldn't be bothered trying to type properly.

me)))))ohhhhh, i'd LOVE to!

When you say "crap keyboard", I'm not exactly sure what you mean.. Is it missing keys or what?

me)))yawn

Oh please, stop being so melodramatic. Your typing skills are dire. That's not to say you'll be "taken away", but that your typing skills are dire. I take it your reading skills ain't too good either.

me))yawn


"righr" there.

That's hardly a justification. Try again.

me))no

So you disagree with my statement? Please.. explain.

me))no. dont like your abusive manner one bit.

This is not my office Duendy and you, luckily, are not my patient. This is a place where I can forget work and just discuss issues as and when I want to. Got it?

me)))))got it.


Not at all. While I will say everyone at times in their life could use a "chat", I do see a big difference between the two. As an example I would mention a woman that is under some stress because her doctors believe her pregnancy to be ectopic. Her talking to me does not mean she needs "professional help", but that she needs to get her feelings out in the open. It can help a great deal - and is by and large more beneficial than taking a large dose of hallucinogen.

me)))))where have i suggested 'large doses of 'hallucinogens'? and for women with ectopic pregnancies...??

While we're on the subject let me just mention medical history. Only a little while ago, (In the grand scheme of time), if you had a headache, doctors would chop your scalp off believing it was demons. Yes.. medical history is horrendous.. Are you really advocating that medical history is horrendous now because it once was?

me))))psychiatry isn't medical science. though it pretends and acts like it has medical science! its history is HORREDNOUS, and it continues as such. for proof read The Manufature of Madness: Comparative Study of the Inquistion and the Mental Health Movement, by Thomas Szasz....!!!

While this is a relevant analogy, I hope it makes the point.
see MY point!

a psychiatrist is more likely to to commit suicide than any other profession. did you know?

me)))))have YOU ever eat magic mushrooms?

No.

WHY do you imagine i am ONLY referring to magic mushrooms when i say 'sacraments'?

I didn't imagine anything, I'm narrowing it down for the sake of discussion.

i asked you previously a simple question: do you blieve consciousness is a product of the brain?if not what?

I asked you a simple question a page ago. I'm still waiting for an answer.

As far as i recall i haven't implied one 'runs round naked' after eating shrooms or any sacrament. that is YOUR interpretation

No it isn't. Pay attention Duendy. Once more for the sake of it: I asked you a question but you never answered it. Instead, Crunchy Cat told me: " shes saying humans are meant to be running around naked.." and "She is also suggesting hallucinagenic drugs".

I then responded to this guy, that people are now living longer - because he claims it is "unhealthy" for us in our modern environment.

You then came along and started busting my balls all because you couldn't be bothered answering my question. If you finally get round to doing that I will ammend my posts to suit.

me))do you call your 'patients'/'clients?' 'spastics?...just curious?

So.. whatever I do on a forum, or at a football match, or at a nightclub I also have to do at work?

me)))))where have i suggested 'large doses of 'hallucinogens'? and for women with ectopic pregnancies...??

Uhh.. you didn't, I did. You asked me if I believed everyone needed professional help. I was answering your question. Pay attention.

its history is HORREDNOUS, and it continues as such.

Kindly justify the latter part of that sentence. Thanks.

for proof read The Manufature of Madness: Comparative Study of the Inquistion and the Mental Health Movement, by Thomas Szasz....

I would hardly call the man's opinion "proof". His 'opinions' were rejected by the American Psychiatric Association (APA), the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI), the President's New Freedom Commission on Mental Health, the National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and Depression (NARSAD), the National Mental Health Association (NMHA), and the Treatment Advocacy Center (TAC).

hah...yeh of course, causethey all grovelling in same trough. now look mr. i am not wasting any mo time with arrogant you. you are just wasting space with yur sorry attitude, which has no intention to explore with me. so .....unless you have anythng to actually contribute worthwhile in tis thread, i am gonna now ignore you

So, i have made up a term, 'the 'PATRIX'----see above post where I talk about this. To reiterate,, i was going to use term 'matrix' but suddenly thought of... 'patrix'!
Reason i dont want to use matrix for what i'm about to explore is that, the PAtriarchal perspective views Nature as a trap, a seductive--always female--temptress, enticing 'male heroic spirit' away from his goal--the 'pure spirit'.
So, for example, we have the
Eastern terms/interpretations, 'MAya' and 'MAra' to mean 'illusion' and delusion'---ie., Nature-entanglement'engulfment' of th 'male mind'.
'MAtrix has definition, 'female womb'. so i have rather decided to use theterm 'PAtrix' to describe the patriarchal cage, patriarchal MINDSET, which oppresses, not just us, but all other species, and Nature itself. THAT is what i want to now explore:

where do we begin?
a really fascinating book called 'Shamanism: TheFoundations of Magic', by Ward Rutherford, argues that the male heroic fear of the female begins, or is prominent in male-heavy shamanism....!
The may surpise many people, because it's assumed that shamanism is our oldest spiritual primal beginnings. but not so. for shamanism came from Goddess stream.

According to Rutherford, male shamanism typically sawthe more open Goddess vegetative religious rituals where everyone becomes partakes of the sacrament, and become'possessed', as a threat to his authority, and that his great enimies were female goddesses, usually 'underground' and at the bottom of the sea, etc.
Rutherford also stresses that shamanic revivals have always been with the well-off people, the middle classes, whilst Goddess orietned orgiastic rituals , with people of the land, women, slaves, dark-skinned people, homosexuals, bisexuals, transexuals, and so on.

Let me explore difference between 'orgia' and shamanic ritual. In the former, ALL participants would eat a sacrament and have communal group ecstatic expression,in a celebratory way. whilstin shamanic culture it is usually the shaman who performs the role as contacter of 'spirit world' or being 'possessed' etc
This not to say that in the Goddess steam there wouldn't have been shamans, usually women. i am meaning when a RIVALRY happens between MALE-oriented shamanism and Goddess vegeatative religion. then happens a rift.
For when male authroritarianism happens in the role of the shaman 'middle-man' who claims only he can contact an 'invisible world', surely that is when this disenfranchises people from their OWN ecstatic direct participatory freedoms, and this maybe the blue-print for patriarchal religions where we ALSO have middlemen between us and actual sacramental experiential experience

more. mucx more to xplore about this PATRIX....later...

feel free to join in an get yer feet wet

so coninuing then.........what do i define as the PAtrix? How does one dtect, see, feel it. For I sense it is all around. An adequate analogy is it is like the water fis swim in. DO fish notice the actual water. Maybe they do, i don know, and noone knows how a fish feels. And i am in no way implying anything inister about te waer fish swim in, except what the patrix does to thewater in name of progess!

Th patrix formed from a long long history of indoctrination. And by long I am meaning thousands of years!

As mentioned bove, its presence can be very well evidenced in the Genesis myth of the banning of the Fruit in the Garden of Eden, and the expulsion of humanity from 'Paradise'.
It is easier to SEE this patrix when we realize that the 'original sin' MEANS the eating of the sacraments, forbidden by 'God'--head office of Patrix inc.
Of course woman is blamed, for the Old Religion was from the Goddess Stream. So in effect this upstart 'God'/male elite is simply demonizing that very ancient Religion of the Earth.

hah...yeh of course, causethey all grovelling in same trough.

Apologies, but what is this in reference to?

now look mr. i am not wasting any mo time with arrogant you. you are just wasting space with yur sorry attitude, which has no intention to explore with me.

I am trying to "explore with you", and indeed am waiting on an answer to my question 1 page ago. I think what you mean to say is that you're not going to talk to me because I disagree with you. Be a grown up for a change and be honest.

unless you have anythng to actually contribute worthwhile in tis thread, i am gonna now ignore you

But I have. I was told that the modern world is unhealthy, to which I provided refutation by stating that we now live longer. You told me to read a certain author to which I provided refutation by stating that pretty much every psychiatric organisation in America disagrees with this individuals opinion - which you ignored. Anything else I need do?

Apologies, but what is this in reference to?

me)))))what do you think?? ie., they all have invested interest to keep their scam afoot, no? i am more against bio-psychiatry of course. Szasz is a worthy revealer of the sham that is so-called psychiatric science. te fact you struttingly name all of the pompous sounding abreviated titles does not impress.

I am trying to "explore with you", and indeed am waiting on an answer to my question 1 page ago. I think what you mean to say is that you're not going to talk to me because I disagree with you. Be a grown up for a change and be honest.

me(((((oh seeet jeesu, your askin ME togrow up??! you who cal others 'spastic'. shit the bullyin kids use to use that term
when i was at PRIMARY school--for Americns etc that is pre--12 year old school.
if you wann explore with me , learn some respect! and stop going on about page 1. bring what yo have to say here, in real time

But I have. I was told that the modern world is unhealthy, to which I provided refutation by stating that we now live longer. You told me to read a certain author to which I provided refutation by stating that pretty much every psychiatric organisation in America disagrees with this individuals opinion - which you ignored. Anything else I need do?

yes read him again without your invested prejudice. and understand that tis 'living longer' 'progress' may not mean lives filled wit quality, and dignity, AND is more than likely adding to the problems on our small planet wit more old mouths to feed, ---more limited resources used up. all cause of patriarchal man's fear of death. you lot always go on about how peole live longer. but---as said...AND when yo look closer it is only WESTER mainly middle class etc pople tis works for. the rest die early just the same. tough frm exploitation, starvations, poverty, etc.

me)))))what do you think?? ie., they all have invested interest to keep their scam afoot, no?

Right.. so one man's opinion is clearly the absolute truth while the refutations from all the major organisations in a country are merely scam artists lying to preserve the profit?

Way to go Duendy.

Szasz is a worthy revealer of the sham that is so-called psychiatric science.

But no, he isn't. Please justify how a scientology co-founders opinion, (born back in the 1920), is somehow more truthful and of more worth than every single large psychiatric organisation in the whole of America. Tell me Duendy please, how is Szasz a "worthy revealer"? Please, justify your statement.

te fact you struttingly name all of the pompous sounding abreviated titles does not impress.

It wasn't to "impress", but to utterly refute your baseless claims. That was successful.

bring what yo have to say here, in real time

So I have to repeat myself because of your inability to answer questions? Please..

tis 'living longer' 'progress' may not mean lives filled wit quality, and dignity

But we all know that. Life is not perfect Duendy.. and sometimes we suffer. Is that all you wanted to say?

AND is more than likely adding to the problems on our small planet wit more old mouths to feed

"Small" is one of those weird words that doesn't always mean much. This "small" planet still happily fits 6 billion people and is 2/3rds unpopulated. But what do you suggest Duendy? That we try to lower the average lifespan and smoke dope?

all cause of patriarchal man's fear of death

Please tell me why people shouldn't want to live longer.

you lot always go on about how peole live longer

"you lot"? Who are you referring to? I just provided you with a fact, it's not my fault it's a fact.

AND when yo look closer it is only WESTER mainly middle class etc pople tis works for. the rest die early just the same.

Sure, it's an average. Didn't I point that out to you several posts back?

Oops, sorry never saw the post until now :)

Well, let's just check statistics. To my knowledge the average life expectancy has increased an extreme amount if we were to compare modern day to the times when we were, perhaps, running around naked as hunters. Indeed our life expectancy is greater now than it was a mere 100 years ago.

This is true, our life expectancy has grown considerably. It is also true that modern life puts more focus on the individual. Families are no longer doing the laundry together, hunting with each other outside and getting vitamin D from the sun, exercising, etc. The things people are not engaged in by default isn't promoting mental well being and if we want to talk pure statistics then one only need look at suicide rates as a piece of supporting data.


Admittedly we have scientific/medical advances to thank for a lot of that, but those advances were not made by eating magical 'shrooms. Indeed every person I know or have met that is into their 'shrooms and smoke are actually pretty much brain dead. They can barely tie their own shoelaces let alone improve medical science and the quality of life. Not to mention that the one person that comes on this forum telling everyone to dabble with 'shrooms is the one person that cannot type a three letter word without fucking it up.

It's no coincidence.

This is true. Advances in science and medicine have done a great deal of good for mankind. In the last 150 years people are in a radically different environment campared to all previous history and adapting to such a large change isn't easy for alot of people (whether they realize it or not).

I agree that recreational drugs are very damaging and that no advances have come from their use.

Right.. so one man's opinion is clearly the absolute truth while the refutations from all the major organisations in a country are merely scam artists lying to preserve the profit?

me))actually it is not just one man who is has/is exposing the mental health movement. HAve you heard of Fred Baughman?
Actually, there have been several oter threads at these forums wherr i have gone to much effort to challenge your such beliefs as your regarding bio psychiatry---errr, where were you? do you just hang out in religious forum?
Not sure if i want tis thread about samaneral experience taken over with this complex topic which i have always found can go on and on, andpople get very upset. for te whole idea of 'mental illness' is central to the mainanence of the present patriarchal ideology!
so let me put you straight. i believe mental illness is a myth. yes the scam is an evil unprecendented profit and prestige motivated. Even dragging in millions of children into itsoppressive web---this is Baugman's speciality.
Testimony of Dr Fred Baughman www.house.gov/ed_workforce/hearings/106th/oi/ritalin92900/baughman.htm

Way to go Duendy.

But no, he isn't. Please justify how a scientology co-founders opinion, (born back in the 1920), is somehow more truthful and of more worth than every single large psychiatric organisation in the whole of America. Tell me Duendy please, how is Szasz a "worthy revealer"? Please, justify your statement.

me))))))go read him and abosrb! what am i, our tutor already?
And our reference to him being co-founder of scientology is complete nonesense. if you care to search tat term --cult's namenwith him, you should get a spokesperson for him at his site refute his being a scientologist.

It wasn't to "impress", but to utterly refute your baseless claims. That was successful.

me)))but you haven't....? and they most certainly are not baseless.

So I have to repeat myself because of your inability to answer questions? Please..

me))do wehat you want. but this is eting on my nerves. also ypur tedious style of psychoanalysing ever godamn sentence whilst at same time not saying much.

But we all know that. Life is not perfect Duendy.. and sometimes we suffer. Is that all you wanted to say?

me)))what? you think i dont know this?

"Small" is one of those weird words that doesn't always mean much. This "small" planet still happily fits 6 billion people and is 2/3rds unpopulated. But what do you suggest Duendy? That we try to lower the average lifespan and smoke dope?

me)))))i am not anti medical science as such. but its model is based on a mechanical understanding of the organism and health. when its way has become all that is available it is oppressive and without feeling.
YES thisplanet IS small and has LIMITED resources. tousands of PTHER species are suffering due t our numbers and a mechanical mindset which is dominant on this planet.

Please tell me why people shouldn't want to live longer.

me))iam not saying people shouldn't live longer. you are so simplistic. these are complex questions you ask in a very naive way. pople generally feel that they HAVE to live longer. many very old people are kept tickin on yes their lives are dire. tis is a cultural pressure to cling on no matter what.

"you lot"? Who are you referring to? I just provided you with a fact, it's not my fault it's a fact.

me))you lot means materialisitc positivists. one's whose religion seems to
be science

Sure, it's an average. Didn't I point that out to you several posts back?
I am just stating the actual. tat fo all your deification of science and its brave new world of longer and longer life. for many peole on rthis planet including the Western world have to live miserable lives and die young

Hmm... well, I don't really support the idea of 'sacramental' religious experience - because I believe we are (most of us) capable of having mystical experience without the use of medicinals.

That said - I do believe we may come around to the point where we discover that some people genuinely DO need the medicinals to have a mystical experience - and for them, it will be prescribed, as are any other medicinals. I believe we'll come around to recognizing that mystical experiences are healthy and beneficial to the individual and to society as a whole, and so see the inability to have them as a disability needing cure.

That idea was put forth by some who deem themselves pioneers in the field of neurotheology... and it is something I'm interested in studying more. On my own forum, we started a topic on it, but we haven't gotten as far as I would like... here is the discussion if it interests anyone: http://www.forumsvibe.com/thequeensrealm/viewtopic.php?t=8&mforum=thequeensrealm

QT

Hmm... well, I don't really support the idea of 'sacramental' religious experience - because I believe we are (most of us) capable of having mystical experience without the use of medicinals.

me)))welll, HIand Welcome.
Nope. dont agree with you at all. Most of us aren't. and i question mysticism. i am not really talking about mysticism atall. if we care to explore the history of mysticism we see it too is divisive, psychologically dividing'spirit' from Nature--please, the first link!
When we have the idea tha some people can have 'mystical' xperiences natrually, we are the ideology of gurus and holy men and mytics. all spinners. trying to pretend 'pureness' or 'pureR-ness'. it is false.

That said - I do believe we may come around to the point where we discover that some people genuinely DO need the medicinals to have a mystical experience - and for them, it will be prescribed, as are any other medicinals. I believe we'll come around to recognizing that mystical experiences are healthy and beneficial to the individual and to society as a whole, and so see the inability to have them as a disability needing cure.

me))))ohg dear gawwwd/ that idea is truly awful! it is like some materialisti bio-psychiatry trip on ACID...ugggggh!

That idea was put forth by some who deem themselves pioneers in the field of neurotheology... and it is something I'm interested in studying more. On my own forum, we started a topic on it, but we haven't gotten as far as I would like... here is the discussion if it interests anyone: http://www.forumsvibe.com/thequeensrealm/viewtopic.php?t=8&mforum=thequeensrealm

QT
all i can see is one post...? but i really do not like that idea one bit. it is fascist-mysticism! i am sure we will explore why as we continue

The one post contains a link which had a bunch of posts from a prior iteration of the board.

Fascist-mysticism? Explain the term?

QT

The one post contains a link which had a bunch of posts from a prior iteration of the board.

Fascist-mysticism? Explain the term?

QT
te idea that one's 'ordinary' atate is lacking, or wrong, ad that the 'best' state is a 'mystical' state. Hence people pressurred in some godawful bravenewworld that they must BE 'mystical'.
this idea is very reminiscent of the current oppressive paradigm of 'normalcy' , whereby any 'deviation' from this supposed State-sanctioned 'idea' mentalstate is pathologized as 'mental illness'. Ie., any behaviour deemed non-acceptable. And ten is said to be a biological disease which needs medical intervention, drugs, ECT, lobotomy etc.

So, what i see with your idea, which you tell us is neurotheology is that idea 'glorifed' as it were. that's why i have so much distaste for it .

Thevery idea of it is also built on patriarchl metaphysical assumptions of teir being a 'Father-God-Creator' or a 'onness mystical ideal'

If you care to read what i've put down in this thread from beginning of it, and also check the first link titled --here it is again. i feel this is a MUST read, to really explain in-depth what i mean:
From Orphism to Gnosticism www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/ukraine/231/dionysian/orphism.html

Yu see the Indigenous world view and th mystical world view are very different. forte latter, it is usually the abstracted ideal of some pure spiritual goal--whther that might be the Orphic desire to escape te organism and Nature, or te Vedantic desire to merge into a 'oneness'----these ideals are abstracs. whereas the Indigenos insight is more Earth-centred. no desire to escape. for Nature is wonderful AS IT IS. hat MAKES it be miserable, and dewtrys its balance, are mindsets like patriarchal
belief systems such as mysticism, monotheism, ad materialism, etc all of which DENIGRATE natural world and natural being.
So in tis context of Earth-centred Indigenous understanding, sacramental experience is not to become 'purer' or al-the-time mystical, but rather as a CELEBRATION of life and death and regeneration and Nature

so coninuing then.........what do i define as the PAtrix? How does one detect, see, feel it. For I sense it is all around!! An adequate analogy is it is like the water fish swim in. DO fish notice the actual water? Maybe they do, i don't know, and noone knows how a fish feels. And i am in no way implying anything sinister about the water fish swim in, except what the 'patrix' does to thewater in name of progess!

Th patrix formed from a long long history of indoctrination. And by long I am meaning thousands of years!

As mentioned bove, its presence can be very well evidenced in the Genesis myth of the prohibitio of the 'Fruit' in the Garden of Eden, and the expulsion of humanity from 'Paradise'.
It is easier to SEE this patrix when we realize that the 'original sin' MEANS the eating of the Fruit of the Tree/sacraments, forbidden by 'God'--head office of Patrix inc.
Of course woman is blamed, for the Old Religion was from the Goddess Stream. So in effect this upstart 'God'/male elite is simply demonizing that very ancient Religion of the Earth.

WHY is it demonizing the religion of the Earth?
Well in the invididual and community is at ease wit Earth, with Nature, and wit the cycles of Nature, what need of she/he they of some sky-god and male elite telling them how to LIVE. telling them rules, most of which are oppressive and self-contradictory, and war mongery, and divisive.
Simultanesously we have the mystical concept of 'spirit' trapped in Nature, and seeking relase through various 'purification' rituals.
All of these bliefs, all stemjing from same patriarchal root-idea GUILT the individual. are designed o make us DIS-trust our selves, our depth.
For if we are all distrustful of ourselves, and angst-ridden, in conflict between 'good' and 'bad' we is prfect SHEEP for the self-imposed heep HERDERS!

heard of 'divide and conquer'?
THAT!

pciture tat old clich caricature pic of the catholic person. on one shoulder he got an angel and on other a demon. and he is piggy in the middle isn't he? caught up in WHo to listen to, 'Jesus' or the 'Devil'---so his state is a constant angst--forever in conflict between these two xtremes. Catholic guilt...?

How does this torment translate/modify itself ino post-Churchian times/the modern secular world?
Well now rthe opressors have dispensed with tat strategy as such. but it still lingers there Unconsciously!!!
NOWit is the person is between 'sane' and 'insane'...errrrm picture th caricature. on one shoulder is mr/mrs 'success'--gotit all,the house, te suv, th constant sex, the kids, rthe long life, the mod cons, and the smug smile----on other shoulder is the utterly depressed person, in despair, broke, down an out, outcaste, poverty stricken, ghetto dweller, 'schizophrenic', scapegoat...!

me))actually it is not just one man who is has/is exposing the mental health movement. HAve you heard of Fred Baughman?

Yeah I have, books concerning his 'opinion' sell for a tidy sum of $40 and yet fails on many levels. He argues that ADHD is a fraud because no abnormality in the brain can be detected. Strangely enough, neither can any abnormality be detected with depression - and yet it is still just as valid a disorder to which drugs can be prescribed.

However, these two people are giving their opinion on two largely different things, and they are still refuted by the overwhelming mass majority of professionals. If you believe it's some mass conspiracy, then I cannot really say much that is going to help.

Actually, there have been several oter threads at these forums wherr i have gone to much effort to challenge your such beliefs as your regarding bio psychiatry---errr, where were you? do you just hang out in religious forum?

Yes. Now I don't know where you work or if you work, but for argument sake let's just say you work at McDonalds. Would you really want to go on a forum and talk about hamburgers all night? It's unlikely - and as religious debate is where my interest lies, I generally stay on this section.

so let me put you straight. i believe mental illness is a myth.

Might I ask what professional qualification allows you to make that statement with any credibility whatsoever? Your belief is as meaningless as belief in mermaids - that's coming from a professional.

this is Baugman's speciality

And there are thousands upon thousands of others with this speciality, and yet seemingly none of them agree. What I ask is why you take the word of 1 man over the word of everyone else.

And our reference to him being co-founder of scientology is complete nonesense. if you care to search tat term --cult's namenwith him, you should get a spokesperson for him at his site refute his being a scientologist

Of course they have to deny it. If he was considered a crackpot nobody would buy his books.. imagine all that lost profit.

me)))but you haven't....? and they most certainly are not baseless.

But they are.. unless you can justify your statements. I previously gave you that chance and you declined. Tell me how the opinion of one or two people in any way gives justification against the refutations of everyone else.

me)))what? you think i dont know this?

That's not what my statement implied. Indeed it was a question.. Pay attention.

me)))))i am not anti medical science as such. but its model is based on a mechanical understanding of the organism and health. when its way has become all that is available it is oppressive and without feeling.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "all that is available". What else would you suggest that saves lives? Of course take into account that nobody forces you into any positions. You don't have to go and see doctors, shrinks, teachers, bankers or anyone else. It probably wont do you much good if you don't, but you still have the choice.

YES thisplanet IS small and has LIMITED resources. tousands of PTHER species are suffering due t our numbers and a mechanical mindset which is dominant on this planet.

I agree that many other species suffer needlessly because of man - but I do not personally see how 'sacramental' experiences are going to help change any of that - other than everyone being in such a 'weak' state that they can't get up and do anything.

me))iam not saying people shouldn't live longer. you are so simplistic.

Hardly, but I can only respond to what you say. You seemed kind of bitter at people that want to live longer.. or even mention that people now live longer.

pople generally feel that they HAVE to live longer

'Have' to or 'want' to?

many very old people are kept tickin on yes their lives are dire. tis is a cultural pressure to cling on no matter what.

Is that "cultural pressure" or genetic fight for survival?

me))you lot means materialisitc positivists. one's whose religion seems to
be science

Religion? No. Respect for science.. certainly. It has put men on the moon, allows you the ability to talk to people on the other side of the planet, cured a billion diseases, and always strived to move mankind forward.

Nothing else can ever make that claim. Religion hasn't, and using hallucinogens certainly hasn't.

tat fo all your deification of science and its brave new world of longer and longer life. for many peole on rthis planet including the Western world have to live miserable lives and die young

They always have and they always will Duendy - even in the times when people were running round naked, eating hallucinogens. What science does is try to help limit the amount of people that are living miserable lives and dying younger. Taking drugs does the opposite.. indeed if you get into it in a big way it pretty much guarantees a miserable life where you'll die younger.

Yeah I have, books concerning his 'opinion' sell for a tidy sum of $40 and yet fails on many levels. He argues that ADHD is a fraud because no abnormality in the brain can be detected. Strangely enough, neither can any abnormality be detected with depression - and yet it is still just as valid a disorder to which drugs can be prescribed.

me))no abnormality means no disease to be treated with drugs! He and Azasz are not just giving their 'opinions', tey etal are showing up your pseudoscience scam for what it is. aughman has just published a new book all about te evil scam you people do which diagnoses and harms, and in some cases KILLS, and stigamtizes millions of children!

However, these two people are giving their opinion on two largely different things, and they are still refuted by the overwhelming mass majority of professionals. If you believe it's some mass conspiracy, then I cannot really say much that is going to help.

me)))never ASKEDyou for help. you and your people are the LAST people on Earth i would ask or go to for help. and Szasz and aughman are NOT giving different opinions about things. they BOTH assert that mental illness is a MYTH which is is.

Yes. Now I don't know where you work or if you work, but for argument sake let's just say you work at McDonalds. Would you really want to go on a forum and talk about hamburgers all night? It's unlikely - and as religious debate is where my interest lies, I generally stay on this section.

me)))so err why are you talkin bout it here then? why ARE you here then. seems to me you are pushin your myth.

Might I ask what professional qualification allows you to make that statement with any credibility whatsoever? Your belief is as meaningless as belief in mermaids - that's coming from a professional.

me))))))here it comes. the AUTHORITY, ie: who are littel YOU to question whether you have a biological mental disease or not!"---and people believe it ti'll get worse when you lose rights and these pople are in contol wit you behind locked doors. checkout www.mindreedom.org where psychiatric survivors ALSo have a tale to tell!

And there are thousands upon thousands of others with this speciality, and yet seemingly none of them agree. What I ask is why you take the word of 1 man over the word of everyone else.

me)))i am not takin word of '1' man, but more tan several who are the ones with guts to reveal what your shm controlling myth is ll about. Thomas Szasz goes into tis METICULOUSLY in the book a imentioned titled The Manufacture of Madness: A Comparison of the Inquisition and the Mental Health Movement. any intelligent people are actually now beginning to wake up to what's been going on, and continues to go on, espcially with MILIONS of our children who cannpt defend thmselves against these shysters, and parents can be ythreatened to not comply with their authority. I am on praivate mailing list qit Dr Baughman, and have seen some the parents despairing letters.

Of course they have to deny it. If he was considered a crackpot nobody would buy his books.. imagine all that lost profit.

me))Heis most definately not a 'crackpot'---hah how apt coming from a shrink!

But they are.. unless you can justify your statements. I previously gave you that chance and you declined. Tell me how the opinion of one or two people in any way gives justification against the refutations of everyone else.

me))))oh , i hae lready said fellah. take tis up wit Dr Buaghman, and transfer communicational results to here. lets see who ends up with egg on the face. he has challenfed head of APA to PROVE tat mental illness is disease and was ignored, etc etc. so look snakelord your constant whining to justify yur pofession is takin over my thread. YOu KNOW my position now, accept it!

That's not what my statement implied. Indeed it was a question.. Pay attention.

me)))who are YOU tellin to pay attention? gpo and do your power ting on someone else.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "all that is available". What else would you suggest that saves lives? Of course take into account that nobody forces you into any positions. You don't have to go and see doctors, shrinks, teachers, bankers or anyone else. It probably wont do you much good if you don't, but you still have the choice.

me))))good food, good environment, intelligent people who understand Natureis intelligent and not a meaningless machine...etc

I agree that many other species suffer needlessly because of man - but I do not personally see how 'sacramental' experiences are going to help change any of that - other than everyone being in such a 'weak' state that they can't get up and do anything.

me))))ohhh you know nothin about it. you haven't even HAD psychedelic experience. here some homework.......hah

Hardly, but I can only respond to what you say. You seemed kind of bitter at people that want to live longer.. or even mention that people now live longer.

me))am i hell bitter. and you ask ME yto pay attention. your lucky i've given ya this much! thers nuthin forcin me yu know

'Have' to or 'want' to?

me)))))have to-----a book by Grof and Halifax---they were aloowed to administer LSD to terminally ill people. they found that tose who had deep experience found they didn't need to 'hang on' any more!

Is that "cultural pressure" or genetic fight for survival?

me)))))))cultural pressure to cling on at al costs. ie., some cultures like rthe Eskimo, old peple see suicide as an honour

Religion? No. Respect for science.. certainly. It has put men on the moon, allows you the ability to talk to people on the other side of the planet, cured a billion diseases, and always strived to move mankind forward.

me)))))))what you want me to say. you've made yer mind up. dont listen.........have already explained tis!

Nothing else can ever make that claim. Religion hasn't, and using hallucinogens certainly hasn't.
me)))to you no. cause you have axeto grind. you come here for confrontation. so its hard for you to understand me. and as sid ironically no not what you speak of --regardin pychedelic experience

They always have and they always will Duendy - even in the times when people were running round naked, eating hallucinogens. What science does is try to help limit the amount of people that are living miserable lives and dying younger. Taking drugs does the opposite.. indeed if you get into it in a big way it pretty much guarantees a miserable life where you'll die younger.
ohhhh dear. says who? says propaganda that puts ALL drugs into one 'nasty basket' cept ypur pharme-shrink drugs , that IS!! which are VERY toxic. and are given without informed consent. hypocrisy!!

its www.mindfreedom.org

also.....you'd aked me how i can just listen to '1 man' and come to the understanding about mental health myth?....andi actually understated my learnings about this. saying 'more tha several people'....hah hell no. i am talkin years of research included, and experience, that sees your myth as part of the patriarchal mindset. actualy this should be very clear so far with what i've explored from post one, and other stuff i'veput out at these forums

just thought i'd clarify this

me))no abnormality means no disease to be treated with drugs!

You take one rather pitiful sentence from a book and walk round with it like you know what you're talking about. On the one hand I find it somewhat amusing, but on the other realise the dangers of anyone being able to publish a book.

He and Azasz are not just giving their 'opinions', tey etal are showing up your pseudoscience scam for what it is. aughman has just published a new book all about te evil scam you people do which diagnoses and harms, and in some cases KILLS, and stigamtizes millions of children!

Sure, 25 people have died from methylphenidate. Unfortunately these things happen in rare circumstances. I know of an 18 year old girl that went out and got drunk for her birthday and ended up dying of alcohol poisoning. That doesn't instantly mean we accuse beer companies of scamming, or say nobody should ever drink alcohol.

The fact Duendy is that methylphenidate is incredibly effective against ADHD - which exists regardless to what Szasz or Baughman might say on the matter. The issue would lie with rush diagnoses or prescribing wrong amounts. As New Scientists says:

'This in microcosm is what is wrong with the US healthcare system, which tends to over-medicate those who have health insurance, leaving the rest to make do with healthcare that would embarrass some developing countries.'

While certainly a serious issue, as I'm not American, it's not something I can really comment on. However, their failings does not make the medical profession "a scam".

me)))never ASKEDyou for help. you and your people are the LAST people on Earth i would ask or go to for help.

All that from reading a couple of books heh.. You'd probably never use the internet if you read two books on 'hackers' and identity fraud.

me)))so err why are you talkin bout it here then?

err.. because you brought it up?

me))))))here it comes. the AUTHORITY, ie: who are littel YOU to question whether you have a biological mental disease or not!"---and people believe it ti'll get worse when you lose rights and these pople are in contol wit you behind locked doors. checkout www.mindreedom.org where psychiatric survivors ALSo have a tale to tell!

That's not an answer to the question. It seems you're doing a good job of running away from something you can't answer, but little else. Once again just incase you misunderstood the question:

Might I ask what professional qualification allows you to make that statement with any credibility whatsoever?

me)))i am not takin word of '1' man, but more tan several

More than several? I am impressed.

me))))oh , i hae lready said fellah. take tis up wit Dr Buaghman, and transfer communicational results to here.

There's little need to. Him and his kind, (*i'd rather make a million selling books to the gullible and naive than actually help anyone*), have already been put in their places. So someone out in the middle of nowhere finds their book at the local brik a brak sale and buy's every word without question.. it's not really an issue.

me)))who are YOU tellin to pay attention?

I was telling YOU to pay attention. You'd know that if you were paying attention.

me))))good food, good environment, intelligent people who understand Natureis intelligent and not a meaningless machine...etc

Sure, I can appreciate all of that, but it's not going to help that much if you have cancer.

me))))ohhh you know nothin about it. you haven't even HAD psychedelic experience. here some homework.......hah

Why would I need to? Looking at the effect it has on people and the damage it does is sufficient enough. That's also why it's against the law. I suppose the law makers are just scamming?

me)))))have to-----a book by Grof and Halifax---they were aloowed to administer LSD to terminally ill people. they found that tose who had deep experience found they didn't need to 'hang on' any more!

No kidding. I knew a guy that ate some 'shrooms, fell out his window and died. He didn't 'hang on' at all. Drugs have those kind of effects. Indeed statstics show that 70-90% of suicide attempts are done by those taking drugs.

Eskimo, old peple see suicide as an honour

Wrong.


ohhhh dear. says who? says propaganda that puts ALL drugs into one 'nasty basket' cept ypur pharme-shrink drugs , that IS!! which are VERY toxic.

Wrong again. You will find that all prescribed drugs will come with a long list of possible side effects and reactions, the dangers of taking if you shouldn't, or of taking with alcohol etc etc etc.

The difference is you are advertising drugs - openly telling people to use them. I would tell someone not to even take a headache tablet unless they absolutely have to. Of course, I don't personally get paid for the medicine or drugs someone buys and as such have no reason to prescribe it unless there is a valid reason to do so. You instead would just prefer to live with your little naive conspiracy theory without taking the time to actually understand the issue. Still, that's your right.

You take one rather pitiful sentence from a book and walk round with it like you know what you're talking about. On the one hand I find it somewhat amusing, but on the other realise the dangers of anyone being able to publish a book.

me)))))one's tempted to say 'so laugh off!' but i feel you are going to be a constant source of typical State/Psychiatry propaganda!

Sure, 25 people have died from methylphenidate. Unfortunately these things happen in rare circumstances. I know of an 18 year old girl that went out and got drunk for her birthday and ended up dying of alcohol poisoning. That doesn't instantly mean we accuse beer companies of scamming, or say nobody should ever drink alcohol.

me)))ohhhh great analogy, not! that girl, of hopefully legal age can CHOOSE to drink and fal off a roof or whatever, a child pressurized by phony labels, pressurized from school, Statem and even sometimes family--not a hope in hell of any fukin choice!
And how you just state casually the 'low' number ofdeaths as... 'collateral damage or what? hafve YOU LOST a child from being diagnosed wit a phony disease??

The fact Duendy is that methylphenidate is incredibly effective against ADHD - which exists regardless to what Szasz or Baughman might say on the matter. The issue would lie with rush diagnoses or prescribing wrong amounts. As New Scientists says:

'This in microcosm is what is wrong with the US healthcare system, which tends to over-medicate those who have health insurance, leaving the rest to make do with healthcare that would embarrass some developing countries.'

me))Listen: There is no such disease as 'ADHD'! Behaviour is not a disease.

While certainly a serious issue, as I'm not American, it's not something I can really comment on. However, their failings does not make the medical profession "a scam".

me)))))psychiatry is NOT medical science!

All that from reading a couple of books heh.. You'd probably never use the internet if you read two books on 'hackers' and identity fraud.

me)))))You arrogant psychiatrist.

err.. because you brought it up?

me))oh i see, of course it's in the RELIGIOUS forum, your fave isn't it. How you must love psychoanalying the religionists here and 'normalizing' them sentence by friggin sentence. what a buzz....!

That's not an answer to the question. It seems you're doing a good job of running away from something you can't answer, but little else. Once again just incase you misunderstood the question:

Might I ask what professional qualification allows you to make that statement with any credibility whatsoever?

me)))))i'm homeless. now go fuk off!

More than several? I am impressed.

me))))is that right mr sarky pants?

There's little need to. Him and his kind, (*i'd rather make a million selling books to the gullible and naive than actually help anyone*), have already been put in their places. So someone out in the middle of nowhere finds their book at the local brik a brak sale and buy's every word without question.. it's not really an issue.

me)))))competition hey. tough!

I was telling YOU to pay attention. You'd know that if you were paying attention.

me))))))there is nuthin to pay attention TO but snarlin!

Sure, I can appreciate all of that, but it's not going to help that much if you have cancer.

me))))))if one has a REAL biological disease of course tey dont want to die, though some might want to commit suicide. i am sick of your arrogant westernocetric attitude struttin out as it do. and ironically in a world of despair thanks to the mindset you glorify.

Why would I need to? Looking at the effect it has on people and the damage it does is sufficient enough. That's also why it's against the law. I suppose the law makers are just scamming?

me))))))Look fool. sacraments have been taken in a sacred way by al peoples over this globe since time immemorial. i amTRYING to pay respcts to tis and educate that tey idn't just begin in the 1960s wit LSD, but are central to the flowering of mythology, and philosophy, and arts, and so on.
Of course there can be abuse. People brought up in tis culure are having to be indoctrinated wit the very attitue you are admirably showing here. it DOESN'TWORK. the so called war on [[[SOME]]]drugs aint wokin!....though covertly , it is for the powers that be!

No kidding. I knew a guy that ate some 'shrooms, fell out his window and died. He didn't 'hang on' at all. Drugs have those kind of effects. Indeed statstics show that 70-90% of suicide attempts are done by those taking drugs.

me)))ha! see how your shit works. just a bit above you try and justify to us that children dying in double figures is a small thing for some phony disease, yt give us some reffer madness shit about one person jumpin out of a winda on shrooms..cant yu do better than that old rope. sheeesh
I hVE had more tan several psychedelic experiences, and not once had urge to risk my life. you do not lose your senses. in fact you become much more feeling alive and aware. to of course like wit anything there will be risks. like bad set and setting, etc, in 1960s part of the typical patriarchal negative propaganda included LSD trippers staring in the sun till they went blind.......Crap!

Wrong.

Wrong again. You will find that all prescribed drugs will come with a long list of possible side effects and reactions, the dangers of taking if you shouldn't, or of taking with alcohol etc etc etc.

me)))oh not the sharpest pencil in the rack isyu. i meant informed consent as is they do not HAVE a disease!

The difference is you are advertising drugs - openly telling people to use them. I would tell someone not to even take a headache tablet unless they absolutely have to. Of course, I don't personally get paid for the medicine or drugs someone buys and as such have no reason to prescribe it unless there is a valid reason to do so. You instead would just prefer to live with your little naive conspiracy theory without taking the time to actually understand the issue. Still, that's your right.
Yes and i spose you feel you are plicng here in your hitecoat no doubt. well , look. i am talking in an intelligent way about sacraments that are central to eligious exprience, mythology, religion, througout millenia. and i have dne the research bout this. dont care if you believe tis or not. IF people after reading, and exploring wish to explore for themselves more in-depth what i am putting down here, and even try scraments, THAT IS THEIR FREEDOM!

but i feel you are going to be a constant source of typical State/Psychiatry propaganda!

Yes yes, it's all propaganda. We're all out to get you.. You really are quite a paranoid individual aren't you? Wanna buy some medicine?

And how you just state casually the 'low' number ofdeaths as... 'collateral damage or what?

I think you need to take it into perspective. There are probably more deaths due to motorcycle accidents every day in your city than there are total number of deaths from the total usage of methylphenidate. Should we ban motorcycles? Hell, I heard of a guy who's computer blew up and killed him. Should we stop using computers? The annual shark victim death rate is higher than the total death rate of methylphenidate. Should we go and extinctify every shark or perhaps stop people from swimming? I wouldn't specifically call those victims "collateral", but there's no call to jump off the deep end and start trying to insult an entire profession because of it.

hafve YOU LOST a child from being diagnosed wit a phony disease??

No, but I have lost a child. You?

There is no such disease as 'ADHD'! Behaviour is not a disease.

I see. Neither is depression. So when anyone says they're depressed you call them a liar? There is illness and there is disease - two largely different things.

me)))))psychiatry is NOT medical science!

I see. Just to hear your opinion on the matter.. what is it?

me)))))You arrogant psychiatrist.

Surely arrogance is thinking you, uneducated in the field, can speak for the entire psychiatric profession?

Funnily enough every time I call you on it, or question your justifications you just insult me a little more and move on to something else.

oh i see, of course it's in the RELIGIOUS forum, your fave isn't it

Yes.

How you must love psychoanalying the religionists here and 'normalizing' them sentence by friggin sentence. what a buzz....!

It has it's moments, although I personally fail to see the relevance.

me)))))i'm homeless. now go fuk off!

Alas that's not really an answer either. Third time lucky perhaps..

Might I ask what professional qualification allows you to make that statement with any credibility whatsoever?

world of despair

Can I ask where you live? You keep bringing up some problem with westerners and world's of despair - which I generally disagree with. Yes, bad shit happens - but by and by people appear to be quite happy... here at least.

me))))))Look fool.

What was it you were saying about childish insults earlier? Pots and kettles spring to mind.

sacraments have been taken in a sacred way by al peoples over this globe since time immemorial.

Ok, I don't dispute that.

i amTRYING to pay respcts to tis

Drug taking is something to be respectful of? Why exactly?

and educate that tey idn't just begin in the 1960s wit LSD

You think you're onto something new? Lol.

me)))ha! see how your shit works. just a bit above you try and justify to us that children dying in double figures is a small thing for some phony disease

Considering there are currently around 4 million people in America alone being prescribed, 25 deaths isn't really worth getting so panicky about. More people than that died last year from choking on Maltesers.

Admittedly there were also several cases of people suffering hallucination, but then that seems to be something you support and indeed actively encourage.

Look at the actual results and you'll see there's nothing phony about it.

i meant informed consent as is they do not HAVE a disease!

What are you talking about? Here at least, people are informed, are given choices, are made aware of risks, and will go through other available methods first and foremost, (such as changing diets, cutting out sugar etc) - and do have a genuine illness. Your uninformed statements do not change anything, whether you put an exclamation mark on the end or not.

Yes yes, it's all propaganda. We're all out to get you.. You really are quite a paranoid individual aren't you? Wanna buy some medicine?

me)))))exactly! that's what you do.

I think you need to take it into perspective. There are probably more deaths due to motorcycle accidents every day in your city than there are total number of deaths from the total usage of methylphenidate. Should we ban motorcycles? Hell, I heard of a guy who's computer blew up and killed him. Should we stop using computers? The annual shark victim death rate is higher than the total death rate of methylphenidate. Should we go and extinctify every shark or perhaps stop people from swimming? I wouldn't specifically call those victims "collateral", but there's no call to jump off the deep end and start trying to insult an entire profession because of it.

me))yet next breath you justify war on drugs cause of some rare tale about a person jumping of a roof 'on shrooms'

No, but I have lost a child. You?

me))I a sorry about that.
No i haven't .
And therefore surely you can empathize much more wit any parent whose lost a child, espcially after false psychiatric diagnoses.

I see. Neither is depression. So when anyone says they're depressed you call them a liar? There is illness and there is disease - two largely different things.

me))))))please explain this difference between 'illness' and 'disease' as it refers to 'depression' more fully?
use whatever technica terms you choose, and i will pass it on to Dr Bughman to see what he thinks of it, and will--if he agrees---share his opinion about what you say.

I see. Just to hear your opinion on the matter.. what is it?

me)))you have alreaady heard it many times now. i am not a parrot.

Surely arrogance is thinking you, uneducated in the field, can speak for the entire psychiatric profession?

me)))Szasz and Baughman are qualified and you reject THEIR qualified opinion. Is this not true?

Funnily enough every time I call you on it, or question your justifications you just insult me a little more and move on to something else.

me))))your whole ATTITUDE is insulting--from the first.

Yes.

It has it's moments, although I personally fail to see the relevance.

Alas that's not really an answer either. Third time lucky perhaps..

Might I ask what professional qualification allows you to make that statement with any credibility whatsoever?

me)))see above

Can I ask where you live? You keep bringing up some problem with westerners and world's of despair - which I generally disagree with. Yes, bad shit happens - but by and by people appear to be quite happy... here at least.

me))))you must live a veery very sheltered life not to be aware what dire circumnstances we as a species, and other species, are going throug on planet Earth in these unprecedented times.

What was it you were saying about childish insults earlier? Pots and kettles spring to mind.

me))))apply your own 'wisdom'!

Ok, I don't dispute that.

me)))))wel if not. what are you makin such a song and dance about...?

Drug taking is something to be respectful of? Why exactly?

me)))we are talking about sacraments. please read what i have said in this thread up to now. i am not your prsonal parrot.

You think you're onto something new? Lol.

me))))mock all you like. i dont see anyone else at these forums talking about tis. and what i am saying DOES have original flava in comprison wit example Leary, McKenna, Ott, etc. you will just have to keep tuned, i aint STARTED yet!

Considering there are currently around 4 million people in America alone being prescribed, 25 deaths isn't really worth getting so panicky about. More people than that died last year from choking on Maltesers.

me)))))))go tell the parents!!! and you seem quite cocksure about that statistic u luck out of the air.....AND, asi say, you will justify tose deaths, yet justify the war on psychedelics because of propaganda about pople jumping off rooves, and looking into the sun, etc.

Admittedly there were also several cases of people suffering hallucination, but then that seems to be something you support and indeed actively encourage.

me))))suffering hallucination?? you dont suffer hallucination. AND actually psychedelics are true hallucnogens--where term means what it says. B hallucination meaning 'seeing something that isn't there'. the drugs that particularly have that effect are the solanaceous vegetation/drugs such as Datura, Henbane, etc.

Look at the actual results and you'll see there's nothing phony about it.

What are you talking about? Here at least, people are informed, are given choices, are made aware of risks, and will go through other available methods first and foremost, (such as changing diets, cutting out sugar etc) - and do have a genuine illness. Your uninformed statements do not change anything, whether you put an exclamation mark on the end or not.
the bottom line is this: ADHD doesn't EXIST! and neither does mental illness as defined by phony psyhiatric 'science' to mean biological disease. So eferytime you deal with a 'patient' you are mis-informing them. Ad i dont care how many of you are doing this, and making money out of tis. it is a major scam. UNprecedented scam. Just because you seem ignorant that it IS dosn't justify it in any way!

sorry typo...meant to say that psychedelics are NOT true hallucinogens--if by that term you mean they create hallucinations. The sibstances that o are termed solanaceous drugs, such as Datura, Henbane, so, for example, on the latter it COULD be possibly to see a polar bear with sunglasses on sat in an armchair...
Psychedelics are more like mutidimensional microscopes

Picture that old cliche caricature image of the Catholic person. The favourite of cartoonists.
On one shoulder he has an 'angel' and on other a 'demon'. And HE, the Catholic, is piggy in the middle isn't he? Caught up in WHo to listen to, 'Jesus' or the 'Devil'---so his state is a constant angst--forever in conflict between these two xtremes. Catholic guilt...?

How does this torment translate/modify itself ino post-Churchian times/the modern secular world?
Well now the opressors have dispensed with that strategy as such. but it still lingers there Unconsciously!!!
NOW the social controlling strategy is the person in between 'sane'/'mental health' and 'insane'/'mental illness'...errrrm picture the caricature. on one shoulder is mr/mrs 'success'--got it all,the house, the suv, prestige, power, money, the constant sex, the kids, the long life, the mod cons, and the smug smile----on other shoulder is the utterly 'depressed' person, in despair, broke, down an out, outcaste, poverty stricken, ghetto dweller, 'schizophrenic', scapegoat...!

...So the latter is the 'other' to be feaered. The 'ghetto' the secular 'hell'. THINK about it. In a culture tat has dispensed with the social controlling need for some cpncept of a post-mortem 'hell', now has its real actuality---in the 'Projects', the 'slums', 'Flavellas' , 'ghettos' 'council estates'. Where 'YOU' may end up IFyou dont do what the authorities want you to do, like believe in teir materialistic philosophy of success and consumerism ad 'education'.

Then of course is te truly dire poverty of the 'un-developed'- world. That also is a very powerful version of hell. real hell of starvation, covered in flies, bloated-bely children with sunken eyes that many Westerners will watch on the news whilst stuffin their faces with foods from all over the world in the 'free market'.

Many people, especially 'educated' people accept all of this as natural, and having nothing to do with 'us'. And carry on beliving in the very materialistic ideology which fuels this world state of affairs.

So the PAtrix is that attitude indoctrinated! A rigid sense, callous, cynical experience of reality. This is all I am saying. Ad sacraments tend to dis-solve rigidity, and allow, if even for a short while a deeper sense of what is going on. A looking and feeling behind the scenes of the games being played.

Alan Watts called our social situation we find ourselves in a 'Double Bind':
"Th Judaic-Christian idea of salvation means precisely membership in a community, the Communion of Saints...the Body of Christ...acceting the religion of bondage of the Christian subgroup [ie., in actuality!]...
NOW one of the most important Christian conventions is the view of man as...the skin-encapsulated ego, the separate soul and its fleshy vehicle together constituting a personality which is unique and ultimately valuable in the sight of God/..This is historical basis of the Western style of individuality, giving us te sensation of ourselves as isolated islands of consciousness confronted with objective experiences which are quite "other". We have developed this sensation to a particularly acute degree. But the system of conventions which inculcates this sensation ALSO requires this definately isolated ego to act as a member of a body and to submit without reserve to the social pattern of the church. The tension so generated however...is..unworkable as any flat self-contradiction." ((Psychotherapy East & West, Alan Watts)))

te idea that one's 'ordinary' atate is lacking, or wrong, ad that the 'best' state is a 'mystical' state. Hence people pressurred in some godawful bravenewworld that they must BE 'mystical'.

That would be a misunderstanding of my words, though I understand how I could be misinterpreted. I make no claims for the ideas of those who wrote the study to which I refer.

The ability to "have mystical experiences" is quite different from the state of "being" mystical. The idea is that having a mystical experience - often only one is needed, radically transforms one's relationship with one's environment, the world, etc. And, that this transformation is such as makes people more social, more open to others, more tolerant, etc.... and also has positive influence on the brain - yields ecstatic feelings, etc. This is all theorized - and in keeping with said theory - the question is - what about people who "can't" have even one such experience? The suggestion is that medicinals can help people have such an experience.

this idea is very reminiscent of the current oppressive paradigm of 'normalcy' , whereby any 'deviation' from this supposed State-sanctioned 'idea' mentalstate is pathologized as 'mental illness'. Ie., any behaviour deemed non-acceptable. And ten is said to be a biological disease which needs medical intervention, drugs, ECT, lobotomy etc.

So, what i see with your idea, which you tell us is neurotheology is that idea 'glorifed' as it were. that's why i have so much distaste for it .

OK - so you disbelieve that there is such a state as health that can have deviations which need correction. I disagree with that opinion, but at least we understand each other!

If you care to read what i've put down in this thread from beginning of it, and also check the first link titled --here it is again. i feel this is a MUST read, to really explain in-depth what i mean:
From Orphism to Gnosticism www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/ukraine/231/dionysian/orphism.html

Yu see the Indigenous world view and th mystical world view are very different. forte latter, it is usually the abstracted ideal of some pure spiritual goal--whther that might be the Orphic desire to escape te organism and Nature, or te Vedantic desire to merge into a 'oneness'----these ideals are abstracs. whereas the Indigenos insight is more Earth-centred. no desire to escape. for Nature is wonderful AS IT IS. hat MAKES it be miserable, and dewtrys its balance, are mindsets like patriarchal
belief systems such as mysticism, monotheism, ad materialism, etc all of which DENIGRATE natural world and natural being.
So in tis context of Earth-centred Indigenous understanding, sacramental experience is not to become 'purer' or al-the-time mystical, but rather as a CELEBRATION of life and death and regeneration and Nature

I will certainly read the link. I may take away some different enterpretations. For instance - I fail to see how an earth-centered faith is less interested in "oneness" than a patriarchal God-centered one. But I will first read the linked article to see what it says.

QT

"Underlying much of New Age thinking is sort of feudal mysticism, a male spiritualist imperialism....
Much of the thinking and commonly held ideas of the New Age movement in fact originate wit te Theosophists...[Beliefs] in the inherent superiority of the white race...made tese mediums emphasize the goodness of light, whiteness and of fire......
This belief in the 'male' spirit trapped in matter....
[E]ntrance into a physical body was, to the anti-sexual Blavatsky, the real Fall...
Theosophical dogma also stresses conflict between 'spirit' and 'matter'...
Thi is where Blavatsky showed her true reactionary and imperialist self...extermination of [other races] was seen as the inevitable conesquences of teir inferiority.
...Blavasky advized [Annie Besant] it was more important to study te 'laws of karma' tan to work for social reform!...Apparently [Besant] saw the caste system as Karmic justice and did not oppose it...It was Blavatsky's teachings on the root races that fired the imaginations of the German Nazis as tey were setting out to make way for a Nordic sixth root super-race...[involving] the genocide of yet more peoples." ((New Age & Armegeddon, Monica Sjoo)))

Duendy;

morning glory seeds arrived today

planning a ritual to enhance the experience any suggestions?

Duendy;

morning glory seeds arrived today

planning a ritual to enhance the experience any suggestions?
Definately dancing.
free form dancing, especially preceeding the takin of the sacrament.
Dancing is wonderfil. it is all organism, mindbody really letting go rythmically

Beaware when you are dancing of psycholoical blocks to how you are moving. as you become aware you may notice you will 'move' through the rigidity and start opening up more
so set and setting is dancing and celebration and Nature. is the inspiration to open up to your being with Nature......to dissolve any rigidities that may exit throug flowing with Eros.......v ery air pores Nature charged with erotic intensity

Try and have access to being able to experience Nature....and REAAAALLLLY open up to it. look at it, feel leaves, dance, allow yourself to aing chant cry giggle, drool in awe and wonder and delight etc--if you feel good and not self-conscious anyone can see you. try and pick a secluded part of Nature

"Underlying much of New Age thinking is sort of feudal mysticism, a male spiritualist imperialism....
Much of the thinking and commonly held ideas of the New Age movement in fact originate with the Theosophists...[Beliefs] in the inherent superiority of the white race...made these mediums emphasize the goodness of light, whiteness and of fire......
This belief in the 'male' spirit trapped in matter....
[E]ntrance into a physical body was, to the anti-sexual Bl