At a time when the hostile media is incessant in its attempts to defame and ridicule Islam and the muslim woman, to portray her as oppressed and abused, the following facts should be enough to prove that the disbelieving nations are more worthy of the accusations they throw at others.

"They Don't Treat Their Women Very Well"

An American Woman married to a Muslim man (visit her website: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Opera/1114/muslimhusbands.htm) writes: I can't tell you how many times I heard that phrase, over and again, from well-meaning friends, when they found out I was going marry a *gasp!* Muslim! I was also warned that he was just marrying me for a green card. To add insult to injury, when I was planning a trip to Pakistan with my baby and to meet my husband's family, I heard all the "Not Without My Daughter" horror stories. "Aren't you afraid they'll try to take your baby?" I would ask, who do you mean by "they?" The Government of Pakistan? The general populace? My husband's family? Are you telling me that my husband's family exists to totally screw me over and take my son? People have always been afraid of what they don't understand. To make things worse, the perception of Muslims and Islam in western society has been totally skewed by movies and the media.

"Glass Houses". We all know the adage, "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones." When you hear someone say something to the effect that "muslims don't treat their women well," then it's time to say, "Oh, and Americans do?" Here are some statistics on spousal (or significant other) abuse, murder, and rape that men commit against their women partners, here in America, in the twenty-first century.

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE UNITED STATES

MURDER : :

Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

BATTERING:

Although only 572,000 reports of assault by intimates are officially reported to federal officials each year, the most conservative estimates indicate two to four million women of all races and classes are battered each year. At least 170,000 of those violent incidents are serious enough to require hospitalization, emergency room care or a doctor's attention.

SEXUAL ASSAULT :

Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

THE TARGETS:

Women are 10 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate. Young women, women who are separated, divorced or single, low- income women and African-American women are disproportionately victims of assault and rape. Domestic violence rates are five times higher among families below poverty levels, and severe spouse abuse is twice as likely to be committed by unemployed men as by those working full time. Violent attacks on lesbians and gay men have become two to three times more common than they were prior to 1988.

IMPACT ON CHILDREN : Violent juvenile offenders are four times more likely to have grown up in homes where they saw violence. Children who have witnessed violence at home are also five times more likely to commit or suffer violence when they become adults.

IMPACT ON HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES . Women who are battered have more than twice the health care needs and costs than those who are never battered. Approximately 17 percent of pregnant women report having been battered, and the results include miscarriages, stillbirths and a two to four times greater likelihood of bearing a low birth weight baby. Abused women are disproportionately represented among the homeless and suicide victims. Victims of domestic violence are being denied insurance in some states because they are considered to have a "pre-existing condition."

SOURCES:

"Violence Against Women: A National Crime Victimization Survey Report", U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C., January 1994.

"The National Women's Study," Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center, Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, SC, 1992.

"Five Issues In American Health," American Medical Association, Chicago, 1991.

Bullock, Linda F. and Judith McFarlane, "The Birth Weight/Battering Connection," Journal of American Nursing, September 1989.

McFarlane, Judith, et. al., "Assessing for Abuse During Pregnancy," Journal of the American Medical Association, June 17, 1992.

Federal Bureau of Investigation statistics, 1992.

Sheehan, Myra A. "An Interstate Compact on Domestic Violence: What are the Advantages?" Juvenile and Family Justice Today, 1993.

Sherman, Lawrence W. et al. Domestic Violence: Experiments and Dilemmas, 1990.

FACTS ABOUT WOMEN'S ABUSE IN THE 'CIVILIZED' WEST :

* Domestic Violence accounts for a quarter of all reported violent crime. [Working Party Report, Victim Support, 1992]

* Each year 100,000 women seek treatment in London for violent injuries caused in their homes.
[Punching Judy, BBC TV Documentary, 1989]

* Domestic Violence is not limited to physical assault. It includes sexual abuse and mental cruelty which undermine a woman's self-esteem. [McGibbon and Kelly, "Abuse of Women in the Home", 1989]

* Research conducted by Police found that 2/3 of all men believed that they would respond violently to their partners in certain situations. [Islington Council, 1994]

* Almost half of all murders of women are killings by current or former partners. [National Working Party Report on Domestic Violence, Victim Support, 1992]


From OASIS - "Opposing Abuse with Service, Information, and Shelter". You can visit their website: http://www.oasisinc.org/ Adapted from the American Bar Association.

Every day 4 women are **murdered** by their husbands, boyfriends, or ex-boyfriends after reported abuse.

An estimated 2 to 6 million women are battered annually in the USA.

Battering is the leading cause of injury to women between the ages of 15-44.

One out of four pregnant women are battered. The battering may start or excalate during pregnancy.

Medical expenses from Domestic Violence total at least $3 billion annually and businesses lose another $100 million in sick leave, absenteeism and productivity.

One out of 7 girls is abused by her boyfriend, and many will be abused by their husbands.

Every Day four women are murdered by their husbands, boyfriends, or ex-boyfriends after reported abuse.

Courtship violence is wide-spread and underreported by both men and women. 30% of High School students have experienced physical or sexual violence in dating relationships. 37% of Men and 35% of Women have inflicted some form of physical aggression on their dating partners.

Women sustained more injuries than men, and they were two to three times more likely to experience unwanted sexual intercourse.

95% of violent crime on Campus is alcohol or drug related.

37% of the assailants and 55% of victims of rape had used alcohol or other drugs.

Husbands and boyfriends commit 13,000 acts of violence against women in the workplace every year (United States Department of Justice, 1994).

Over 1.7 million women were physically abused in 1995 by their male partners, one every 12 seconds (Federal Bureau of Investigation).

There were approximently 4.5 million violent crimes against women in 1992 and 1993. (The Justice Department recognizes that this is an under-estimation of domestic violence and violence against women). (Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey).

50% of all women will be involved in some type of abusive relationship in their life time. We could be talking about your daughters, your mothers, your wives, your girlfriends.

In 95% of VIOLENT CRIMES on campuses, ALCOHOL OR DRUGS WERE A FACTOR.

30% of High School students have experienced physical or sexual violence in dating relationships.

37% of men and 35% of women have inflicted some form of physical aggression with their dating partners.

For every 1 rape that IS reported, 10 are NOT reported.

By the most conservative estimate, each year 1 million women suffer nonfatal violence by an intimate. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report: Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey (NCJ-154348), August 1995, p. 3.)

Other estimates suggest that 4 million American women experience a serious assault by an intimate partner during an average 12-month period. (American Psychl. Ass’n. Violence and the Family: Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family (1996), p. 10.)

Nearly 1 in 3 adult women experience at least one physical assault by a partner during adulthood. (American Psychl. Ass’n. Violence and the Family: Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family (1996), p. 10.)

In 1993, approximately 575,000 men were arrested for committing violence against women, approximately 49,000 women were arrested for committing violence against men. (American Psychl. Ass’n. Violence and the Family: Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family (1996), p. 10.)

Domestic violence is statistically consistent across racial and ethnic boundaries. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report: Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey (NCJ-154348), August 1995, p. 3.)

90-95% of domestic violence victims are women. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Selected Findings: Violence Between Intimates (NCJ-149259), November 1994.)

Much of female violence is committed in self-defense, and inflicts less injury than male violence. (Chalk & King, eds., Violence in Families: Assessing Prevention & Treatment Programs, National Resource Council and Institute of Medicine, p. 42 (1996).)

47% of men who beat their wives do so at least 3 times per year. (AMA Diagnostic & Treatment Guidelines on Domestic Violence, SEC: 94-677: 3M: 9/94 (1994).)

In homes where partner abuse occurs, children are 1,500 times more likely to be abused. (Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Assistance, Family Violence: Interventions for the Justice System, 1993.)

26% of pregnant teens reported being physically abused by their boyfriends, about half of them said the battering began or intensified after he learned of her pregnancy. (Brustin, S., Legal Response to Teen Dating Violence, Family Law Quarterly, vol. 29, no. 2, 333-334 (Summer 1995) (citing Worcester, A More Hidden Crime: Adolescent Battered Women, The Network News, July/Aug., National Women’s Health Network 1993).)

Female victims of violence are 2.5 times more likely to be injured when the violence is committed by an intimate than when committed by a stranger. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report: Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey (NCJ-154348), August 1995, p. 4.)

Domestic violence is an ongoing cycle producing increasingly severe injuries over time, battered women are likely to see physicians frequently. (Children’s Safety Network, Domestic Violence: A Directory of Protocols for Health Care Providers (1992) p. (1).)

65% of intimate homicide victims had separated from the perpetrator prior to their death. (Florida Governor’s Task Force on Domestic and Sexual Violence, Florida Morality Review Project, 1997, p. 47, table 17.)

88% of victims domestic violence fatalities had a documented history of physical abuse. (Florida Governor’s Task Force on Domestic and Sexual Violence, Florida Morality Review Project, 1997, pp. 46-48, tables 14-21.)

44% of victims of intimate homicides had prior threats by the killer to kill victim or self. 30% had prior police calls to the residence. 17% had a protection order. (Florida Governor’s Task Force on Domestic and Sexual Violence, Florida Morality Review Project, 1997, pp. 46-48, tables 14-21.)

From the YWCA of San Diego and the Domestic Violence Research and Training Institute. You can visit their website: http://www.ywcasandiego.org/

A female is battered every nine seconds. [California Alliance Against Domestic Violence, 1994]
It is estimated that one third of all high school and college students will have been in an abusive relationship by the time they graduate. [Levy, 1992]

Relationship violence is the number one cause of injury to women ages 15-44: more that rapes, muggings and car accidents combined. [Center For Community Solutions, 1997]

There are three times as many animal shelters in the United States as battered women shelters. [Senate Judiciary Committee, 1990]

63% of all boys ages 11-20 arrested for murder, murdered the man who was assaulting their mother.[Center For Community Solutions, 1997]

As many as 15 million women have been abused at some time during their lives. [Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, 1989]

As many as one-quarter to two-thirds of battered women report abuse during preganancy.["Battered and Pregnant: A Prevalence Study," Journal of the American Public Health Association]

In a prospective study of 1,200 white, Hispanic and black pregnant women, one in six reported physical abuse during pregnancy. ["Abuse During Pregnancy: A Cross-Cultural Studyof Frequent and Severity of Injuries," J. McFarlane, 1991]

The average battered women is attacked three times each year. [Intimate Violence, R. Gelles and M. Straus, 1988]

22 to 35 percent of women who visit emergency departments in the United States are there for symptoms related to on-going abuse. ["Domestic Violence Intervention Calls for More than Treating Injuries," Journal of the American Medical Association, 1990]

Families in which domestic violence occurs use doctors eight times more often, visit the emergency room six times more often and use six times more prescription drugs than the general population. ["Domestic Violence: A Community Crisis Waiting for an Effective Response" Seattle Domestic Violence Intervention, 1989]

You have a strange obsession with violence against women. Seek professional help, or better porn.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xev
[B]You have a strange obsession with violence against women. Seek professional help, or better porn.
=================================

You got it wrong buddy, the above information is a qurantte to embarrass a lot of assholes who attack Islam by accusing this great religion of abusing women.

Instead of rantings why you dont have the courage to challenge the facts in my thread???

Have you been battered by your boyfriend today ???

You got it wrong buddy, the above information is a qurantte to embarrass a lot of assholes who attack Islam by accusing this great religion of abusing women.

I do believe the Q'ran authorizes beating one's wife, yes?

Have you been battered by your boyfriend today ???

Sadly, tragically, no.
I have not been beaten, whipped, degraded or humiliated at all today. My sex life makes Mother Theresa look like Jenna Jamison.
I think I shall cry.

You are quite correct in saying that "Western" nations treat women quite badly. However, so do all the other nations. Yes, people are arseholes everywhere.

An important thing to consider is that rates of reporting such things are much higher in "Western" countries than in places like Nigeria or Saudi Arabia. Basiclally it happens everywhere, and is reported a lot more in places that at least try for some measure of legal equality between the genders.

There are countries on this Earth where the same crap, and far worse, happens every day. Countries where the legal system sentences women to be raped or stoned to death. In those countries, women are simply too scared to report problems. In such countries, the legal system is as likely to punish the victim as the attacker.

No country on Earth is perfect. No perfect legal system has yet been devised. But you are very right, there are many serious cultural problems in "Western" nations.

Adam, what makes you so sure that the legal system would solve this problem?

"Domestic violence" has existed since there have been codes of law, and in many diverse cultures.

Is this a problem with laws or with the humans that make the laws?

Man, what the fuck is wrong with women, anyway? One in three? What sort of stupid dipshit lets herself be beaten without her consent? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adam
[B]You are quite correct in saying that "Western" nations treat women quite badly. However, so do all the other nations. Yes, people are arseholes everywhere.

An important thing to consider is that rates of reporting such things are much higher in "Western" countries than in places like Nigeria or Saudi Arabia. Basiclally it happens everywhere, and is reported a lot more in places that at least try for some measure of legal equality between the genders.

There are countries on this Earth where the same crap, and far worse, happens every day. Countries where the legal system sentences women to be raped or stoned to death. In those countries, women are simply too scared to report problems. In such countries, the legal system is as likely to punish the victim as the attacker.

No country on Earth is perfect. No perfect legal system has yet been devised. But you are very right, there are many serious cultural problems in "Western" nations.

FINALLY, THE VOICE OF LOGIC HAS ARRIVED.

Thank you adam.

Have you ever considered attempting origional thought?

Originally posted by Xev
Have you ever considered attempting origional thought?

My original thought was that women in the west are severly ABUSED, now, I need figures to SUPPORT my argument and I searched and I found the above thread.

Now, either to argue about the FACTS above or keep your mouth shut.

You sound like you have a serious attitude problem. No one is trying to defame or ridicule Islam, but muslims on the other hand are looked down on by islam itself. here is an example letter:

Bissmillah-hir-Rahman-ir- Rahim
Why is it, that while I was being physically and verbally abused by my husband (who prays and fasts and by the way he is an Arab and I am an American convert). I received the pitty of my Islamic community and even some advised me to call the police on him; and after I got tired of asking for help from my community, after I called the police on him, and he was taken away, why is it that after he came back home, everyone of the brothers turned their backs at me and teamed up with my husband and encourage him not to spend any time with me or the children and accuse me of being a bad wife because I got help from the police? Why is it that none seems to care, for the fact that my husband has even cheated on me with another woman and even taking her to night clubs? I love Islam, but often, it seems very difficult for me to remember that Muslims are not a perfect example of Islam.

Angelica Barakat
USA



Dear sister Angelica Barakats,
As salamualaikum Wa Rehmatullah

Unfortunately Muslims do not reflect ideal behaviour as ordained by Islam. Physical and verbal abuse is also very common in deteriorated societies. Cultural norms and traditions take precedence over Islamic injunctions. Some of the societies consider being sent to the police station as insulting and humiliating and a severe sin in comparison to physical and verbal abuse. As a new Muslim, who accepted Islam by choice you face greater challenges of patience and Dawah. May Allah bless you with all the noble teachings of Islam and save you from the so called Muslim traditions. We can imagine how difficult it is for you to face your current crisis, but, constant study of Quran and Sunnah and five times prayers and supplication shall give you enough courage and wisdom for sure.

Sincerely,

Qazi Hussain Ahmed,
Ameer Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan.

of course abuse of women is a global problem... and you mentioned the WEST... at least ppl are ready to admit that its wrong and not hide it behind religious beliefs... that's where ppl have a problem with islam... you are not ready to acknowledge that there is a massive problem when it comes to gender issues... u just sweep them under the rug of religion...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vienna
[B]You sound like you have a serious attitude problem. No one is trying to defame or ridicule Islam, but muslims on the other hand are looked down on by islam itself. here is an example letter:
======================================

I am not disputing the fact that some muslim women are absued, but this has NOTHING to do with the great religion of ISLAM.

Why you are not debating the SCARY and EMBARRASSING figures about your treatment of women ??

My friends,

It is not religion that abuse women, it is men. Lets not loose fact of that point.

Jus

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sycoindian
of course abuse of women is a global problem... and you mentioned the WEST... at least ppl are ready to admit that its wrong and not hide it behind religious beliefs... that's where ppl have a problem with islam... you are not ready to acknowledge that there is a massive problem when it comes to gender issues... u just sweep them under the rug of religion...

================================

You always speaks bulls.

I said before, there is no doubts in my mind that some muslim socieites oppress women but this has NOTHING to do with the true religion of islam.

I ASKED THIS QUESTION BEFORE, AND IT SEEMS NO ONE HAS AN ANSWER:

NAME ME ONE AMERICAN PRESIDENT OR EVEN VICE-PRESIDENT WHO HAPPEN TO BE WOMAN ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??

INDONESIA, THE LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS MUSLIM WOMAN AS ITS PRESIDENT.

IN IRAN, THE NUMBER OF WOMAN MPs are HIGHER THAN THE NUMBER OF CONGRESS WOMEN IN THE US.

IRAN HAS WOMAN AS ITS VICE-PRESIDENT, DOES THE USA DREAM TO HAVE EVEN A WOMAN AS VICE-PRESIDENT ???

I AM STILL WAITING TO HEAR YOUR RESPONSE ABOUT THE EMBARRASING FACTS REGARDING THE WEST TREATMENT OF WOMEN ??

YOU HYPOCRITES

Green World,

It is not fair to refer to America as "The West", let us not forget the 300 million or so Europeans. In many european countries there are female presidents and women in seats of great power.

Ireland has had 2 female presidents, and one of out former presidents went on lead the UN commission for human rights.

It is not fair to benchmark American culture "If there is such a thing", as a benchmark for the west.

As I said b4. Men beat women....not religions.

Jus

Women abuse in all its forms it’s a world wide problem and of cause we could discuss for ever who is doing it better, the western world, the Arab world or Asians?

There will be no end to the discussion. However, and important element is that in western societies, it is acted upon as a CRIME while in other societies it is normal or overlooked in their own cultures.

:rolleyes:

green... read the article i've posted in your thread titled 'Women's liberation thru islam'....

i would post it here, but i dont like cross posting..

--However, and important element is that in western societies, it is acted upon as a CRIME while in other societies it is normal or overlooked in their own cultures. ---

exactly what i meant in my previous post.. if you had read what i had posted properly, u wud've understood...

Xev:

<i>What sort of stupid dipshit lets herself be beaten without her consent?</i>

You obviously have a poor grasp of the issues surrounding domestic violence. Perhaps some reading is in order?

Originally posted by Green_World
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sycoindian
NAME ME ONE AMERICAN PRESIDENT OR EVEN VICE-PRESIDENT WHO HAPPEN TO BE WOMAN ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??

INDONESIA, THE LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS MUSLIM WOMAN AS ITS PRESIDENT.

IN IRAN, THE NUMBER OF WOMAN MPs are HIGHER THAN THE NUMBER OF CONGRESS WOMEN IN THE US.

IRAN HAS WOMAN AS ITS VICE-PRESIDENT, DOES THE USA DREAM TO HAVE EVEN A WOMAN AS VICE-PRESIDENT ???

I AM STILL WAITING TO HEAR YOUR RESPONSE ABOUT THE EMBARRASING FACTS REGARDING THE WEST TREATMENT OF WOMEN ??

YOU HYPOCRITES

Ever heard of Margaret Thatcher

Or

Queen Elizabeth II

What is the real reason for your question, you make this sound like an attack rather than a debate.
You really do have an attitude problem, listen if you feel so bad about it why don't you offer your help to aid abused women. Instead of wasting energy airing "your" views on this subject.

BTW.....you're not related to someone called whatsupyall are you??

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vienna

What is the real reason for your question, you make this sound like an attack rather than a debate.
You really do have an attitude problem, listen if you feel so bad about it why don't you offer your help to aid abused women. Instead of wasting energy airing "your" views on this subject.

BTW.....you're not related to someone called whatsupyall are you??
================================

When some idiots attack Islam, then I shall be in my full force to refute their lies.

my post was aimed at showing the hypocrisy in the western world
some idiots from the west claim to be so much concerned about the muslim women while at the same time ignoring the appalling state of their own women.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jusmeig
Green World,

It is not fair to refer to America as "The West", let us not forget the 300 million or so Europeans. In many european countries there are female presidents and women in seats of great power.

Ireland has had 2 female presidents, and one of out former presidents went on lead the UN commission for human rights.

It is not fair to benchmark American culture "If there is such a thing", as a benchmark for the west.

As I said b4. Men beat women....not religions.

=====================================

I agree, my post are directed at those hypocrite americans.

But again, even in Europe, domestic violence is serious issue, check the figures.

Originally posted by Green_World

When some idiots attack Islam, then I shall be in my full force to refute their lies.

Can you tell us who these "idiots" are, and what "lies" they tell?

my post was aimed at showing the hypocrisy in the western world

Hypocrisy is universal.

some idiots from the west claim to be so much concerned about the muslim women while at the same time ignoring the appalling state of their own women.

Give examples.....

Reports of crime in the U.S. is not a defense against crime against women in Islamic countries. This is simply a mondified "ad hominem" attack.

What is this thread doing in the religion forum anyway? None of these statistics has anything to do with religion but are about crime in the U.S.

~Raithere

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vienna
When some idiots attack Islam, then I shall be in my full force to refute their lies.

Can you tell us who these "idiots" are, and what "lies" they tell?
===============================

you should know them by reading their stuff on the religion thread. they promote all sorts of lies, from Islam supports terrorism to Islam oppress woman, to Islam ban education for religious reasons....etc.
=================================

my post was aimed at showing the hypocrisy in the western world

Hypocrisy is universal.
===============================

THANK YOU.

==================================

some idiots from the west claim to be so much concerned about the muslim women while at the same time ignoring the appalling state of their own women.

Give examples.....
=================================
Read their threads and their posts about women in Islam.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raithere
Reports of crime in the U.S. is not a defense against crime against women in Islamic countries. This is simply a mondified "ad hominem" attack.

What is this thread doing in the religion forum anyway? None of these statistics has anything to do with religion but are about crime in the U.S.

~Raithere
==============================
HE WHO LIVES IN A HOUSE OF GLASS SHALL NOT THROW STONES ON OTHER PEOPLE HOUSES.

Well people interesting indeed,
The event of gender relations is largly effected by religon, and religon has played a role in gender relations through out history. infact it effects the social relations that exist today.
More over the issue in which is the abuse of women, is not one that is some kind of disciminating hatred of women by men, or one that stems from "the i can beat you and get away with it" ideas as many would project.
the reality of abuse of women is no different than the reality of men that abuse men, infact the violence between men is greater in number and degree of violence, women will never exsperince the level of violence that exist between men. if fact if you read your Crime reporter reprts you find that violence between men is exstremely higher than violence against women. like wise discimination, and verbal abuse. Plainly violence against women is in no comparison to violence against men by men.
Loooking at the issue socially, america shows a good example of how violence propagets socially in the 1940s, where male violence against each other grew very raipidly, during this time we see the end of the cowboy and the incoming of the gansters, irish, itallian, black ect.... during this time violence against men by men grew so great in cities, and the violence against black men was out rite rediculous, here the violence spread to crimes against women which before had was very little in the 1920s, as the violence spread to women and was common place women became violent as well, this lead women to abuse the individuals that they could, known as children, during this time child abuse was so great as well other violence that US congress had to inact laws protecting children. in addtion women would blame men exspecially black men for rape soly to see them murdered, women became famous for poising men, and killing them in bed, they where even use widly by gansters for assinations. by any means the lagest victims of women where children, adoption house for children where havens for child molesters who sexually abuse children, many female children where forced into prostituion, wherein houses for female children became prostution houses, male children where forced into slave labor ect.. this era of violence lead to what is called the CIVIL RIGHTS campiagne or era lead by women and blacks, and whites tired of the violence. all of this began with the act of US Congress acting to protect children and later the formation of the FBI, and its operations agaisnt organized crime. This era of american histroy shows the worst level of social violence know to the human race beside the the use of children in war and wars of the old history. it is a very good of example of how bad things can get in a civilized world. it shows the complete degradtion of society to the point where it consumes its children.
Certainly it should be clear that social violence is not just a issue of males being violent, in fact current reports would show a large increase in violence by women against men and children, the fact that abortion is so common shows that women in general disregard the thier biological constitution for the sake of montary value, the morals of the motherhood are at a loss.
Domestic violence currently in america is stemed by a inbalance in equality, where in women are seen to have the upper hand leagally and by social standard, where social graces and the leagal practice demonstrate a serious inbalance in equality, regarding children, money, and marital disputes. this has happened because of the view of male physical strength, and the action of the womens rights, which was designed to effect a equality however it has been effecting the wrong generations and is seen as a inbalance of equality of law and social standard. plainly it is evident that women use men for monatry gain and use the law and children to maniuplate men for monarty resouces, this is seen as a act of slaver to men in the mind however most men will not let thier pride show that they are abused by such practice. simply women rely on such social patterns to abuse men by that inequaltiy. the fact remains that women pushed for equal rights changeing the martial situation that was previously norm to the family structure, and this cause a increase in divorce ect... premicous activity, increase in abortion (which abortion is a 1940s starty up). and the abuse of men for montary gain. these socail events have lead to a what is called domestic violence in the US. overall men are required to do the base of labor while women do little of physcial or mental labor, this has always been a inequaltiy that has irritated men, leading to violence. in current with the inequaltiy in law ect.... for the last 10 years or 20 that has cause a rise in domesectic violence. in reality laws makers did not institute equality of law, but laws that relate to past sociall patterns of marriage and male female relations where in a male is a provide or sorts, this entire idea is based on a european era in the past that has stuck with euopeans for a long time, when the women of upper classes are treated a certain way, its a old monarch game actually that has nothing to do with the common relations of a family. what many men women and law makers need to realize is that normal male female realtion require or demonstrate a near equal unit of work between men and women, as well responsibltiy. that balance of normal relations is not seen in present industrialized nations.
that is a matter of antropology.

DWAYNE D.L.RABON

Originally posted by Green_World
HE WHO LIVES IN A HOUSE OF GLASS SHALL NOT THROW STONES ON OTHER PEOPLE HOUSES.The major concerns of the "west" regarding the status and treatment of women in various countries is that which is perpetrated or condoned by the governments in question. This is not, primarily, a religious issue although some of the mistreatment has been based upon particular interpretations of religious texts and supported by particular religious groups.

~Raithere

Green World:
My original thought was that women in the west are severly ABUSED, now, I need figures to SUPPORT my argument and I searched and I found the above thread.

You quote inflammatory crap. There is no way that 1 in 4 women has been raped. That's absurd, and anyone with half a brain knows that.

James

You obviously have a poor grasp of the issues surrounding domestic violence. Perhaps some reading is in order?

Women's studies classes, extensive reading, etc.

First you accuse me of being a radical feminist and now I have a poor grasp of these issues? Make up your mind.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xev
Green World:


You quote inflammatory crap. There is no way that 1 in 4 women has been raped. That's absurd, and anyone with half a brain knows that.
==================================

I dont supply figures without their sources, go back to my original thread and read at the bottom where I got these FACTS from.

I know you are shocked and ashamed, but denying these facts will make you look so CUTE !!

Originally posted by Xev
Green World:


You quote inflammatory crap. There is no way that 1 in 4 women has been raped. That's absurd, and anyone with half a brain knows that.

James



Women's studies classes, extensive reading, etc.

First you accuse me of being a radical feminist and now I have a poor grasp of these issues? Make up your mind.

Well speaking as an ex-social worker, with degrees in psychology and social work, I'll clue you all in as to how that report came about. The questionnaire(not created by a neutral party btw, and you'll see why in a second) had an insignificant question in the middle of the form. "Have you ever had sex with your partner when you didn't feel like it?" Now, you and I would extrapolate this to mean, "just because I do not want a sandwhich, does not mean I won't make one for my partner". That one sentence was the actual focus of the questionnaire. And you can see how it's meaning was manipulated to give the conclusion that was sought. No, 1 in 4 women have not been raped. But I guarantee you that at least 1 in 4 have had sex with their partner when they really weren't in the mood. They simply loosely translated "didn't feel like it" to mean "without want", which COULD mean involuntarily, which equals RAPE when loosely read. It's all a slight of hand.

AHHHHHH

i was on another forum that was talking about both guys AND girls who let there partners have sex if they wake up while the other partner is asleep and are horny

that would blow that statistic away COMPLEATLY

Originally posted by Asguard
AHHHHHH

i was on another forum that was talking about both guys AND girls who let there partners have sex if they wake up while the other partner is asleep and are horny

that would blow that statistic away COMPLEATLY

But the questionnaire was not given to males and females. Just females. It was a tool in the middle 70's, in an attempt for the women's movement to garner support and increase it's following. I think another report that was done by harvard gave the percentage as around 6 percent(1 in 16) of females had been raped...and I thought the study a bit more professionally done(they don't play around).I would still place it slightly higher than that as I feel that they put an assumed figure of non-reported of 4 percent, and I thought that a bit low. I would, based on experience and observation place the number at 1 in 12 or 1 in 10.

Xev:

If you've actually read about domestic violence, how can you come out with rubbish which implies that women deserve such violence because of their inaction - that they let themselves be beaten?

Originally posted by Raithere
Reports of crime in the U.S. is not a defense against crime against women in Islamic countries. This is simply a mondified "ad hominem" attack.

What is this thread doing in the religion forum anyway? None of these statistics has anything to do with religion but are about crime in the U.S.

~Raithere

Someone move this to the Politics or Human Science or Ethics forums. It doesn't belong here.

Green, do americans throw sulphuric acid on women because they used a touch of makeup? Do americans rape women and then blame the woman for commiting adultery? Get a grip! Do americans force women to use veils in public? Get a fucking grip!

Nor do Americans prevent women from being educated nor do they say that they can not hold certain jobs due to their sex.

Nor do americans stop women from driving just because they're women.

Well people what is fuuny about this topic is that you peop0le are trying to attack a muslium girl i assume, and make America seem like a garden of eden.
The fact is that other countries including musilm counties have a lower crime and violence rate than America, this is exspecially true of muslim countries.
America is the most socially violent country in the world, with the most rape cases, assualt, robbery, theft,child molestation, serial killers, there is no country that even compares with 60% of the these crime commited in the Americas(USA). thats just the cold facts. America has a prison population greater than 2,000,000 people, with some 1 million female prisoners, and some 1.8 to 2 million male prisoners, in comparison China a country with about 1 billion people(thats 4 time the US population) has less prisoners and a lower crime rate.
Of the US population rape, child molestation, serial murder more than 60% of such crimes are commited by white males, in contrast asian and black male combined account for less than 30% of such crimes.
The majortiy of fund for domestic violence against women is directed to the middle class, where a large amount of physical abuse occurs, and is unreported. likewise the middle class is the biggest buyer or pronograhic matterial,and is the group responsible for the use of prostitution, including the having the greates reports of incest. the middle class is also group responsible for rape, child molestation, and serial murder.
From a anthoplogical view point population abouve the 40 th lattiude show nerotic tendency, compulisve reaction, in contrast below the 40th lat. such reactions are considerd normal, demonstrating a slower reaction but well defined response, what this means is that some one below the 40th lat. who commits a crime is more likely to be focused to the action of the crime, did so deliberlty. in contrast to the north or above the 40th, where the person sought to act but did not think the action out completely, did so delibertly with out thought to theactions.
This understanding of antropology does not provide a excuse for people who commit crimes. what it demonstrates however is that people above the 40th latitude are more likely to commit crimes.
In the last five years crime in the USA has been on the low, however there has been a increase in police employment, along with a increase in Civil rights viloation by goverment, a increase in police butality that rivals the the 1960s. at the same time there has been a sharp increase in serious violent commited by youth.

The reality is that most violence against womans is caused by a inequaltiy in social and legal trends and laws that favor women. that inequality has been the reason for violence gainst women for a long time, it social relation has stems to more than just the USA, but other countries as well. mostly developing countries. this type of violence is not often demonstrated in rual, and indiginous peoples. When society recongizes the fact of equaltiy socialy and leaglly there will be a sharp decrease in violence against women.
DWAYNE D.L.RABON

Originally posted by Dwayne D.L.Rabon

The reality is that most violence against womans is caused by a inequaltiy in social and legal trends and laws that favor women. that inequality has been the reason for violence gainst women for a long time, it social relation has stems to more than just the USA, but other countries as well. mostly developing countries. this type of violence is not often demonstrated in rual, and indiginous peoples. When society recongizes the fact of equaltiy socialy and leaglly there will be a sharp decrease in violence against women.
DWAYNE D.L.RABON [/B]

You are seriously positing that the reason women are assaulted is because they are given equal rights? Are you daft? I think we should ask women what is their choice. Freedom and increased risk of assault, or oppression, with less assault, but the probability that if they're raped, they will be put to death for fornication.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dwayne D.L.Rabon
[B]Well people what is fuuny about this topic is that you peop0le are trying to attack a muslium girl i assume, and make America seem like a garden of eden.
The fact is that other countries including musilm counties have a lower crime and violence rate than America, this is exspecially true of muslim countries.
America is the most socially violent country in the world, with the most rape cases, assualt, robbery, theft,child molestation, serial killers, there is no country that even compares with 60% of the these crime commited in the Americas(USA). thats just the cold facts. America has a prison population greater than 2,000,000 people, with some 1 million female prisoners, and some 1.8 to 2 million male prisoners, in comparison China a country with about 1 billion people(thats 4 time the US population) has less prisoners and a lower crime rate.
Of the US population rape, child molestation, serial murder more than 60% of such crimes are commited by white males, in contrast asian and black male combined account for less than 30% of such crimes.
The majortiy of fund for domestic violence against women is directed to the middle class, where a large amount of physical abuse occurs, and is unreported. likewise the middle class is the biggest buyer or pronograhic matterial,and is the group responsible for the use of prostitution, including the having the greates reports of incest. the middle class is also group responsible for rape, child molestation, and serial murder.
From a anthoplogical view point population abouve the 40 th lattiude show nerotic tendency, compulisve reaction, in contrast below the 40th lat. such reactions are considerd normal, demonstrating a slower reaction but well defined response, what this means is that some one below the 40th lat. who commits a crime is more likely to be focused to the action of the crime, did so deliberlty. in contrast to the north or above the 40th, where the person sought to act but did not think the action out completely, did so delibertly with out thought to theactions.
This understanding of antropology does not provide a excuse for people who commit crimes. what it demonstrates however is that people above the 40th latitude are more likely to commit crimes.
In the last five years crime in the USA has been on the low, however there has been a increase in police employment, along with a increase in Civil rights viloation by goverment, a increase in police butality that rivals the the 1960s. at the same time there has been a sharp increase in serious violent commited by youth.

The reality is that most violence against womans is caused by a inequaltiy in social and legal trends and laws that favor women. that inequality has been the reason for violence gainst women for a long time, it social relation has stems to more than just the USA, but other countries as well. mostly developing countries. this type of violence is not often demonstrated in rual, and indiginous peoples. When society recongizes the fact of equaltiy socialy and leaglly there will be a sharp decrease in violence against women.
======================================

Thank you for SHUTING THE MORONS UP :p

Originally posted by Green_World
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dwayne D.L.Rabon
[B]Well people what is fuuny about this topic is that you peop0le are trying to attack a muslium girl i assume, and make America seem like a garden of eden.
The fact is that other countries including musilm counties have a lower crime and violence rate than America, this is exspecially true of muslim countries.
America is the most socially violent country in the world, with the most rape cases, assualt, robbery, theft,child molestation, serial killers, there is no country that even compares with 60% of the these crime commited in the Americas(USA). thats just the cold facts. America has a prison population greater than 2,000,000 people, with some 1 million female prisoners, and some 1.8 to 2 million male prisoners, in comparison China a country with about 1 billion people(thats 4 time the US population) has less prisoners and a lower crime rate.
Of the US population rape, child molestation, serial murder more than 60% of such crimes are commited by white males, in contrast asian and black male combined account for less than 30% of such crimes.
The majortiy of fund for domestic violence against women is directed to the middle class, where a large amount of physical abuse occurs, and is unreported. likewise the middle class is the biggest buyer or pronograhic matterial,and is the group responsible for the use of prostitution, including the having the greates reports of incest. the middle class is also group responsible for rape, child molestation, and serial murder.
From a anthoplogical view point population abouve the 40 th lattiude show nerotic tendency, compulisve reaction, in contrast below the 40th lat. such reactions are considerd normal, demonstrating a slower reaction but well defined response, what this means is that some one below the 40th lat. who commits a crime is more likely to be focused to the action of the crime, did so deliberlty. in contrast to the north or above the 40th, where the person sought to act but did not think the action out completely, did so delibertly with out thought to theactions.
This understanding of antropology does not provide a excuse for people who commit crimes. what it demonstrates however is that people above the 40th latitude are more likely to commit crimes.
In the last five years crime in the USA has been on the low, however there has been a increase in police employment, along with a increase in Civil rights viloation by goverment, a increase in police butality that rivals the the 1960s. at the same time there has been a sharp increase in serious violent commited by youth.

The reality is that most violence against womans is caused by a inequaltiy in social and legal trends and laws that favor women. that inequality has been the reason for violence gainst women for a long time, it social relation has stems to more than just the USA, but other countries as well. mostly developing countries. this type of violence is not often demonstrated in rual, and indiginous peoples. When society recongizes the fact of equaltiy socialy and leaglly there will be a sharp decrease in violence against women.
======================================

Thank you for SHUTING THE MORONS UP :p


He shut no one up, his stance reflects the need to read. He has used statistics unethically to support his hypothesis. I can use the fact that 90% of accidents happen within 5 miles of home, to decide I should only wear my seatbelt on short trips. But that doesn't take into account that 90% of travel is within 5 miles of home. You can use statistics any way you want, but it is only those who use them responsibly who are listened too. His is obviously wrong.

First off, to several of you that chose to counter, i spent many years studing internation buisness infastructure, that includes law, goverment organizarion, population mangagement,area economic impacts, soical relations, growth ect..... i can even tell you how many phones are in a givenb country, how much toilet paper they use, the tonnage of goods on the ocean at any given time, the amount of fish taken from the sea. estimate groth of AGRI, SERVices, Consturtion, industry ect..... antropology of the world as supported by the US department of education, and numerous doctors, and professors ect.... are read by me including judges, scientist, preseidents and former preseidents. I am not just some guy fliping through a US News magazine. if thats not not enough i can tell you the number of nuclear submarines own by each country, the types of nuclear war heads, how many oil tankers, cargo ships, comericalair crafts ect.......
More at times i have consulted even the US Dept. Geology, biochemist ect........ i do on hands investgations including observation of the justice department of several states, onduct physical observation of justices competency and, as well obseve other events of security ect...... this here is no dumb boy.
so count your chickens, cause i will hit the nail on the head 90% of the time.

Laslty my IQ test in the top 2% of the USA.

shall we open discussion, there is plenlty of room on the board members room.
DWAYNE D.L.RABON

Originally posted by Dwayne D.L.Rabon
First off, to several of you that chose to counter, i spent many years studing internation buisness infastructure, that includes law, goverment organizarion, population mangagement,area economic impacts, soical relations, growth ect..... i can even tell you how many phones are in a givenb country, how much toilet paper they use, the tonnage of goods on the ocean at any given time, the amount of fish taken from the sea. estimate groth of AGRI, SERVices, Consturtion, industry ect..... antropology of the world as supported by the US department of education, and numerous doctors, and professors ect.... are read by me including judges, scientist, preseidents and former preseidents. I am not just some guy fliping through a US News magazine. if thats not not enough i can tell you the number of nuclear submarines own by each country, the types of nuclear war heads, how many oil tankers, cargo ships, comericalair crafts ect.......
More at times i have consulted even the US Dept. Geology, biochemist ect........ i do on hands investgations including observation of the justice department of several states, onduct physical observation of justices competency and, as well obseve other events of security ect...... this here is no dumb boy.
so count your chickens, cause i will hit the nail on the head 90% of the time.

Laslty my IQ test in the top 2% of the USA.

shall we open discussion, there is plenlty of room on the board members room.
DWAYNE D.L.RABON

Odd, aren't all those figures available from each country's factbook? Or each countries governmental departments? Availability of data by no means gives you credibility, nor does it promise that you do not have an agenda that you wish to pursue. I find it extremely difficult to believe that womens rights has caused INCREASED assaults. I think more along the lines that it has caused INCREASED REPORTING. That in conjunction with increased rates of violence accross the board would give IMO a better reading. And I wouldn't brag a top 2% IQ in the boards. You might be surprised who shares the boards with you. If IQ even mattered that is.

Shouldn't your nick be something more like "Black World" or "I spread Hate"?

your going out ALL of your posts in the wrong way, nobody will ever listen to you because you come across as ANGRY and UPSET all of the time, like you want to fight.

You create so many threads which insipre hate and that's all nothing you say will SOLVE ANY PROBLEM, nothing. think about what your saying and realise that your not solving anything, sure there are problems in this world and those problems are only going to go away if people come together to SOLVE THE PROBLEMS, you have no clue how to solve problems, only how to spot them out, and anyone can do that(especially those with a black heart).:rolleyes:

Sure you can find many figures in a C fact boook, or statemans almanac ect ..... taxes and so on.
the event of social relation is one that is obsevered or the society, here a economic imapct can tell you quite a bit, most city issue one, as well as local areas ect...new developments, housing,gyms, ect.... most every thing that effects local area or city is licencsed under permit first, however there are some thing that are not so noticeable, such as land developers in controll of local goverment offices, land owners groups that force populations around the city by income level, regional corporation that hold sub monolpolies in certain city and county areas that limit products and controll regional prices ect....... other social iimpacts such as a corporation increaseing the alcoho content of beer, and regional distribution. local taxation of land, addtion of transportion to new areas, state placement of sex offenders, selective advertiment by bradcasting companies.

Womens rights has nothing to due with equal rights, laws of the past meant to address a issue that exist 30 years ago would be of little effect on the next generation, unless they are desigend to represent equallity, given the name civil rights because of the appearant standing of justice to law applied. law that are designed to have a effect to change a adverse behavior of the public but are not desigen to establish equality eventually need to be striken usally within 5 to 10 years, other wise those laws get used to abuse people not relavant to the intent of the law as it was designed for other puropose. a example is alimony, or the belief that women need to be care of the child because a man does not have what it takes to take care of the children, called resident custody of a child. the event of child support and such practices where in the chid can not consume or use the monies sought by the mother of state, where that money is discared by the mother for the mothers purposes not the child. the event of abortion but the exstention of resposiblity to the male if the women should decide to give birth, giving her sole choice as to the burden of the male regadless if he wants it or not. divorce in the USA is around 60% of all married couples, most divorce in the first five years. socially there exist a predjuice against males in the court room, and in social services surrounding the court room, even in poilce arrest where regardless of the intiator of the distrubance the male is arrested or seen as the aggressor.
Socially females base marital relations on a males earnings, exspect a male to pay for treats ect..... listen do not warp what iam saying either, fun amognest two people is alwasy fun, point is that subject of money has always been a motive for marriage and dating for women,even when they have strong felling for some one else. it demonstrates that if the option exist it will be taken advantage of if possible. all morals down. in empolyment you will find that women are schedualed for labor and postions that are of less taxing, and at the same pay. in martial relation of the home you will find the same exist she does less work than the male around the house and work that is less taxing. tyipical point when i left the house it was clean did a hard days work when i got back the house was clean, asked her what she did today she said she cleaned the house. ? the number one cause of divorce is extrmatiral affiar.
Plainly these events builds and builds in each relationship, and within each relationship, many times leading to violence called domestic violence.

Oh and listen don't try and play me wrong either, i did not say that fairness was to be eliminated from earth, or that women should not have the right to a secondary school education, what i said is that the inequaltiy of laws and social trends favor women and in event lead to domestic violence, and such aspects has always lead to it. plainly a little party in france changed the way european people behave in regard to women, that change has stuck with them to created a current trend or order of society that views women seperate from men and has created a inequality. That past view of women is not relavant to the advancement of current society or equality of law.

DWAYNE D.L.RABON

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dwayne D.L.Rabon
First off, to several of you that chose to counter, i spent many years studing internation buisness infastructure, that includes law, goverment organizarion, population mangagement,area economic impacts, soical relations, growth ect..... i can even tell you how many phones are in a givenb country, how much toilet paper they use, the tonnage of goods on the ocean at any given time, the amount of fish taken from the sea. estimate groth of AGRI, SERVices, Consturtion, industry ect..... antropology of the world as supported by the US department of education, and numerous doctors, and professors ect.... are read by me including judges, scientist, preseidents and former preseidents. I am not just some guy fliping through a US News magazine. if thats not not enough i can tell you the number of nuclear submarines own by each country, the types of nuclear war heads, how many oil tankers, cargo ships, comericalair crafts ect.......
More at times i have consulted even the US Dept. Geology, biochemist ect........ i do on hands investgations including observation of the justice department of several states, onduct physical observation of justices competency and, as well obseve other events of security ect...... this here is no dumb boy.
so count your chickens, cause i will hit the nail on the head 90% of the time.

Laslty my IQ test in the top 2% of the USA.

shall we open discussion, there is plenlty of room on the board members room.
DWAYNE D.L.RABON
=======================================

WAOOO, I am very impressed by your record, please, do stay here, those hopeless idiots are having very hard time dealing with your posts.

Keep the good work.

only the weakminded are impressed by authority

Originally posted by Dwayne D.L.Rabon
First off, i spent many years studing internation buisness infastructure, that includes organizarion, population , soical relations, growth ect..... i can even tell you how many phones are in a givenb country, estimate groth of AGRI, SERVices, Consturtion,and former preseidents, comericalair crafts ect.......
More at times i have consulted even the US Dept. Geology, biochemist ect........ i onduct physical observation of justices competency and, as well obseve other events of security ect...... this here is no dumb boy here

Hey "no dumb boy"........learn to spell.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
[B]only the weakminded are impressed by authority.
============================

So, why are you impressed by my authority then ??

If you are one of those HOPELESS atheists, why you come to RELIGION section ???

get the hell out of here, go and play somewhere else.

KITTOS.

Originally posted by Green_World


If you are one of those HOPELESS atheists, why you come to RELIGION section ???

get the hell out of here, go and play somewhere else.


Yawn.....atheists aren't hopeless, we just don't need the crutch of god or allah to get us through life.

As for your instructions to go away......shove it, pondlife.

Originally posted by Green_World
[QUOTE]Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
[B]only the weakminded are impressed by authority.
============================

So, why are you impressed by my authority then ??

If you are one of those HOPELESS atheists, why you come to RELIGION section ???

get the hell out of here, go and play somewhere else.

KITTOS.

you misspelled kittos. I'm also not finish, so don't bother.

Religious people also come to the science section. I don't really think that there is a rule that says atheist can't visit the religion forum. At least i didn't see it when i signed up.
And until allah makes you moderator of this forum you have no right to tell me to go away.

and who says I am an atheist?
I could be...

edit:

I almost forgot the most important thing. I'm not impressed by your authority, since you have none. Even if you would have any I still wouldn't be impressed, because I can think by myself and do not need authority to tell me what life is all about

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vienna
Yawn.....atheists aren't hopeless, we just don't need the crutch of god or allah to get us through life.

As for your instructions to go away......shove it, pondlife.
==========================

Oh Hello my dear English Rose, how are you today ??

My dear, you are HOPELESS atheist, what are you doing in the RELIGION section of this forum ????

The religion section is for those who have HOPES and BELIEVS, for those who are FULL with LIGHT and ILLUMINATION, this section is NOT for you my dear rose.

so, please, my gentle English rose, leave us alone.

TAA....:p

Originally posted by Green_World
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vienna
Yawn.....atheists aren't hopeless, we just don't need the crutch of god or allah to get us through life.

As for your instructions to go away......shove it, pondlife.
==========================

Oh Hello my dear English Rose, how are you today ??

My dear, you are HOPELESS atheist, what are you doing in the RELIGION section of this forum ????

The religion section is for those who have HOPES and BELIEVS, for those who are FULL with LIGHT and ILLUMINATION, this section is NOT for you my dear rose.

so, please, my gentle English rose, leave us alone.

TAA....:p

:) you are so much like allah, full of shit and false, go swivel

Moderator comment. Vienna, that isn't helping. Please stay with the argument and avoid the ad hominem attacks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
you misspelled kittos. I'm also not finish, so don't bother.

Religious people also come to the science section. I don't really think that there is a rule that says atheist can't visit the religion forum. At least i didn't see it when i signed up.
And until allah makes you moderator of this forum you have no right to tell me to go away.

and who says I am an atheist?
I could be...

edit:

I almost forgot the most important thing. I'm not impressed by your authority, since you have none. Even if you would have any I still wouldn't be impressed, because I can think by myself and do not need authority to tell me what life is all about
===========================

Oh yeah,KIITOS............where about in Suomi ???

This forum has MANY sections, one of them called RELIGION, it is for people who have RELIGION, since you guys are HOPLESS people with no RELIGION, you have no MORAL right to be in this section( that's of course, if you know what morality means !).

You need authority to tell you about how to go about your daily life ?? one small example, you are obeying the authority of 3 lights when you drive your car, can you say that you dont need the authority of these trafic lights ?????

ONLY INSANE PEOPLE CAN CLAIM SUCH NONESENSE.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vienna
[B]:) you are so much like allah, full of shit and false, go swivel
====================================

Bloody hell.........REALLY ???? :cool:


FUCK OFF ENGLISH BITCH.

Moderator comment.

Cut that out. That is not helping your argument either and neither is it a proportioal response.

Originally posted by Green_World


Oh yeah,KIITOS............where about in Suomi ???

This forum has MANY sections, one of them called RELIGION, it is for people who have RELIGION, since you guys are HOPLESS people with no RELIGION, you have no MORAL right to be in this section( that's of course, if you know what morality means !).

You need authority to tell you about how to go about your daily life ?? one small example, you are obeying the authority of 3 lights when you drive your car, can you say that you dont need the authority of these trafic lights ?????

ONLY INSANE PEOPLE CAN CLAIM SUCH NONESENSE.

i go through red every day. You might say that I defy the authority of the traffic light. Now your claim is nonsense.
And you insulted me by telling that I am insane, although it is clear that I am not insane, but an individual brought up in a western society with different values than yours. By blindly overlooking this you show you insensitivity towards the people of the world you live in. At the same time you want respect and respect for what you believe in. But you have no respect for other cultures.

Originally posted by Dwayne D.L.Rabon
Sure you can find many figures in a C fact boook, or statemans almanac ect ..... taxes and so on.
the event of social relation is one that is obsevered or the society, here a economic imapct can tell you quite a bit, most city issue one, as well as local areas ect...new developments, housing,gyms, ect.... most every thing that effects local area or city is licencsed under permit first, however there are some thing that are not so noticeable, such as land developers in controll of local goverment offices, land owners groups that force populations around the city by income level, regional corporation that hold sub monolpolies in certain city and county areas that limit products and controll regional prices ect....... other social iimpacts such as a corporation increaseing the alcoho content of beer, and regional distribution. local taxation of land, addtion of transportion to new areas, state placement of sex offenders, selective advertiment by bradcasting companies.

Womens rights has nothing to due with equal rights, laws of the past meant to address a issue that exist 30 years ago would be of little effect on the next generation, unless they are desigend to represent equallity, given the name civil rights because of the appearant standing of justice to law applied. law that are designed to have a effect to change a adverse behavior of the public but are not desigen to establish equality eventually need to be striken usally within 5 to 10 years, other wise those laws get used to abuse people not relavant to the intent of the law as it was designed for other puropose. a example is alimony, or the belief that women need to be care of the child because a man does not have what it takes to take care of the children, called resident custody of a child. the event of child support and such practices where in the chid can not consume or use the monies sought by the mother of state, where that money is discared by the mother for the mothers purposes not the child. the event of abortion but the exstention of resposiblity to the male if the women should decide to give birth, giving her sole choice as to the burden of the male regadless if he wants it or not. divorce in the USA is around 60% of all married couples, most divorce in the first five years. socially there exist a predjuice against males in the court room, and in social services surrounding the court room, even in poilce arrest where regardless of the intiator of the distrubance the male is arrested or seen as the aggressor.
Socially females base marital relations on a males earnings, exspect a male to pay for treats ect..... listen do not warp what iam saying either, fun amognest two people is alwasy fun, point is that subject of money has always been a motive for marriage and dating for women,even when they have strong felling for some one else. it demonstrates that if the option exist it will be taken advantage of if possible. all morals down. in empolyment you will find that women are schedualed for labor and postions that are of less taxing, and at the same pay. in martial relation of the home you will find the same exist she does less work than the male around the house and work that is less taxing. tyipical point when i left the house it was clean did a hard days work when i got back the house was clean, asked her what she did today she said she cleaned the house. ? the number one cause of divorce is extrmatiral affiar.
Plainly these events builds and builds in each relationship, and within each relationship, many times leading to violence called domestic violence.

Oh and listen don't try and play me wrong either, i did not say that fairness was to be eliminated from earth, or that women should not have the right to a secondary school education, what i said is that the inequaltiy of laws and social trends favor women and in event lead to domestic violence, and such aspects has always lead to it. plainly a little party in france changed the way european people behave in regard to women, that change has stuck with them to created a current trend or order of society that views women seperate from men and has created a inequality. That past view of women is not relavant to the advancement of current society or equality of law.

DWAYNE D.L.RABON

I think I see where you are coming from now. But, we are both just extrapolating from the data, to meet our own theories of behaviour and causal factors. Both arguments have merit, but there is no way to be sure either way, because we are basing it on things that are too large to reliably quantify. Don't worry, I won't pull your message out of context or twist it. It is a well thought out argument, but doesn't take into account all of the various interactions. A grand scheme, but I don't know that I could subscribe to it, one is not necessarily relevant to the other.

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
i go through red every day. You might say that I defy the authority of the traffic light. Now your claim is nonsense.
And you insulted me by telling that I am insane, although it is clear that I am not insane, but an individual brought up in a western society with different values than yours. By blindly overlooking this you show you insensitivity towards the people of the world you live in. At the same time you want respect and respect for what you believe in. But you have no respect for other cultures.
=============================

So, you cross the RED lights !!!! and you claim you are SANE ??

you did not answer where in suomi do you live ?

Buddy, I grew up in WESTERN DIRTY ADULTEROUS culture, I hate what this culture is all about: SELFISHNESS, MATERIALISM, SEX, DRUGS, ALCOHOL, MONEY and of course the most recent PHEADOPHILIA.

claiming that crossing red light is not insane proves that you are really INSANE. :p

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
i go through red every day. You might say that I defy the authority of the traffic light. Now your claim is nonsense.
And you insulted me by telling that I am insane, although it is clear that I am not insane, but an individual brought up in a western society with different values than yours. By blindly overlooking this you show you insensitivity towards the people of the world you live in. At the same time you want respect and respect for what you believe in. But you have no respect for other cultures.

But he grew up in a western world too. He's a brit. Nothing more than a disenfranchised youth who is rebelling against the status quo. Twenty years ago it was punk, 40 it was hippies, and 50 it was beatnicks. He will go through this crap for about 5 more years and then he will figure out he's been a prat the whole time and move on.

Originally posted by Green_World
=============================

So, you cross the RED lights !!!! and you claim you are SANE ??

you did not answer where in suomi do you live ?

Buddy, I grew up in WESTERN DIRTY ADULTEROUS culture, I hate what this culture is all about: SELFISHNESS, MATERIALISM, SEX, DRUGS, ALCOHOL, MONEY and of course the most recent PHEADOPHILIA.

claiming that crossing red light is not insane proves that you are really INSANE. :p

i cross red lights based on weighing several factors. Mind you, i do not have a car, i just bicycle. Is there any traffic. How well I am acqainted with the sequence of the traffic lights. Is it worth it time wise etc. Basically the decision is a rational one. Unlike any of yours.

I live in Helsinki, but i wonder what that got to do with anything?

I grew up living with muslims and I can tell you that there morals were not really something to brag about. But I am sure you are so exceptional that even mohamed looked like a dirty western whore in comparison.

Originally posted by Green_World
I hate what this culture is all about: SELFISHNESS, MATERIALISM, SEX, DRUGS, ALCOHOL, MONEY and of course the most recent PHEADOPHILIA.
I thought it would suit your type very well, home from home eh? you pondlife

Originally posted by williamwbishop
But he grew up in a western world too. He's a brit. Nothing more than a disenfranchised youth who is rebelling against the status quo. Twenty years ago it was punk, 40 it was hippies, and 50 it was beatnicks. He will go through this crap for about 5 more years and then he will figure out he's been a prat the whole time and move on.

NAH........You are worng my fellow citizen.

Islam is not fashion, islam is GREAT IDEOLOGY, it is kind of Ideology that is HARD to change unless you are INSANE like Blackstone.

Islam gives me assurance, LOVE and CARE, Islam gives me ANSWERS and SPIRITUAL ILLUMINATION, Islam gives me SERENITY

Claiming that I will change is just laughable, our society is getting worse, can you dare to go out of your house after 8 in the night?

can you be safe even inside your house ????? SICK CULTURE FULL OF CRIMINALS AND DIRTY GREEDY SEX-MANIAC ALCOHOLIC
PATHETIC ANIMALS.

Thanks Allah for saving me from this dirty sick selfish culture........I shall be Muslim until the last breath in my life...INSHA ALLAH.

Originally posted by Vienna
I thought it would suit your type very well, home from home eh? you pondlife

English TART.

Originally posted by Green_World


can you be safe even inside your house ????? SICK CULTURE FULL OF CRIMINALS AND DIRTY GREEDY SEX-MANIAC ALCOHOLIC
PATHETIC ANIMALS.

Thanks Allah for saving me from this dirty sick selfish culture........I shall be Muslim until the last breath in my life...INSHA ALLAH.

a perverted mind thinks of perverted things. And I mean of course that your statements have a hint of perversion

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
i cross red lights based on weighing several factors. Mind you, i do not have a car, i just bicycle. Is there any traffic. How well I am acqainted with the sequence of the traffic lights. Is it worth it time wise etc. Basically the decision is a rational one. Unlike any of yours.

I live in Helsinki, but i wonder what that got to do with anything?

I grew up living with muslims and I can tell you that there morals were not really something to brag about. But I am sure you are so exceptional that even mohamed looked like a dirty western whore in comparison.

CROSSING RED LIGHT IS INSANE NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO JUSTIFY IT.
I can tell you that you are THUG whose morales are not better than the morales of the Russian and the Estonian criminals in Finland.

Are you one of them ???

Originally posted by Green_World
CROSSING RED LIGHT IS INSANE NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO JUSTIFY IT.
I can tell you that you are THUG whose morales are not better than the morales of the Russian and the Estonian criminals in Finland.

Are you one of them ???


no...much worse...i'm dutch

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
a perverted mind thinks of perverted things. And I mean of course that your statements have a hint of perversion

So are you saying that all the above ILLS in your culture DON'T exist ???

insane.

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
no...much worse...i'm dutch


DUTCH ??? AHAAAAA, that's why....have you been smoking the:m:
today ????

:p

Originally posted by Green_World
So are you saying that all the above ILLS in your culture DON'T exist ???

insane.

they probably exist in our culture, what seems obvious is that they have quite a prominent place in your mind, since you don't seem to be able to think about them. I might be able to conclude that you are fixated on perversion if I had been a psychiater

Originally posted by Green_World
DUTCH ??? AHAAAAA, that's why....have you been smoking the:m:
today ????

:p

isn't that lovely...insulting an individual based on generalizations

how many unveiled women have you stoned today?

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
isn't that lovely...insulting an individual based on generalizations

how many unveiled women have you stoned today?

We stone only the MARRIED ADULTEROUS WOMEN provided there are at least 4 witness that can testify that adultery took place, you see, In islam we have very FAIR and JUST system.

we dont stone unveiled women, we do shit on people like you though :p

how civilised

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
how civilised

You are the last people on earth to speak about civilization.

Learn how to respect a great faith with 1.3 billion followers all over the world and then you can claim your right to civil answer.

:mad:

Originally posted by Green_World
You are the last people on earth to speak about civilization.

Learn how to respect a great faith with 1.3 billion followers all over the world and then you can claim your right to civil answer.

:mad:

you can only earn respect and respect cannot be taught

i hope you learned something now

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
you can only earn respect and respect cannot be taught

i hope you learned something now


Respect can be TAUGHT if you live in great civilization where the parents are the example.

Your parents can TEACH you how to respect your grandparents, your society can TEACH you how to respect the eldery ( although such things DONT exist anymore in your SICK culture).

Did you vote for your Liberal RACIST party in Holland, or did you vote for the Labour party ???? well most of them all DIRTY anti-immigrants racist THUGS.

I am glad this dirty anti-muslim, fucking gay, fortuen has gone...how ironic, it is one of you guys who shut him up FOREVER.

:p

Originally posted by Green_World
Respect can be TAUGHT if you live in great civilization where the parents are the example.

Your parents can TEACH you how to respect your grandparents, your society can TEACH you how to respect the eldery ( although such things DONT exist anymore in your SICK culture).

Did you vote for your Liberal RACIST party in Holland, or did you vote for the Labour part ???? well most of them all DIRTY anti-immigrants racist THUGS.

I am glad this dirty anti-muslim gay fortuen has gone...how ironic, it is one of you guys who shut him up FOREVER.

:p


i do not vote...and this is politics:

and actually the muslims hated him because he was gay

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
i do not vote...and this is politics:

and actually the muslims hated him because he was gay

NAH, not because he was gay, but because he called our religoin a backward religion...THE SON OF BITCH.

Originally posted by Green_World
NAH, not because he was gay, but because he called our religoin a backward religion...THE SON OF BITCH.

because they hate gays openly

Originally posted by Green_World
NAH, not because he was gay, but because he called our religoin a backward religion...THE SON OF BITCH.

But it is backwards is it not? Did it not crumble an empire because they refused to accept all new information and technology? Then they were crushed into the sand. And so it will be again. You will be hoist by your own petard.

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
because they hate gays openly

You see how misinformed you are !!

we dont HATE gays because at the end of the day they are humans, we hate HOMOSEXUALITY, we believe:

Dont hate the sinner, hate the SIN.

Originally posted by Green_World
You see how misinformed you are !!

we dont HATE gays because at the end of the day they are humans, we hate HOMOSEXUALITY, we believe:

Dont hate the sinner, hate the SIN.

somehow i fail to see how you can hate homosexuality but not homosexuals. It is not like they are two separate entities. You are gay or you are not gay.

Originally posted by williamwbishop
But it is backwards is it not? Did it not crumble an empire because they refused to accept all new information and technology? Then they were crushed into the sand. And so it will be again. You will be hoist by your own petard.


HAHAHAHAHAH, do you call 19 fanatic criminals who hijacked Islam and used it for their own gains, ISLAM ?

Do you think that those 19 out of 1.3 BILLION represent ISLAM ?

And do you think they attacked the US because they refuse to accept new information and technology??? IDIOT, MOST OF THE HIJCAKERS WERE HIGHLY EDUCATED, ENGINNERS AND PILOTS...

THEY ATTACKED THE US BECAUSE THE US FOREIGN POLICY SUCKS.

YOU ARE REALLY AN ABSOLUTE IDIOT....:p

Moderator comment. Cut out the ad hominem attacks or your posts will be deleted.

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
somehow i fail to see how you can hate homosexuality but not homosexuals. It is not like they are two separate entities. You are gay or you are not gay.

You need to get a grip of what it means to say:

DONT HATE THE SINNER, HATE THE SIN.

Originally posted by Green_World
HAHAHAHAHAH, do you call 19 fanatic criminals who hijacked Islam and used it for their own gains, ISLAM ?

Do you think that those 19 out of 1.3 BILLION represent ISLAM ?

And do you think they attacked the US because they refuse to accept new information and technology??? IDIOT, MOST OF THE HIJCAKERS WERE HIGHLY EDUCATED, ENGINNERS AND PILOTS...

THEY ATTACKED THE US BECAUSE THE US FOREIGN POLICY SUCKS.

YOU ARE REALLY AN ABSOLUTE IDIOT....:p

is that really a good reason to kill thousands of people: US foreign policy sucks

Originally posted by Green_World
You need to get a grip of what it means to say:

DONT HATE THE SINNER, HATE THE SIN.

if the sin is connected to the person than there is no point to make the distinction.

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
is that really a good reason to kill thousands of people: US foreign policy sucks

There is NO justification for killing any innocent civilian.

HOWEVER, the US killed MILLIONS of muslims in Iraq and indirectly in OCCUPIED PALESTINE by helping NAZI TERRORIST state called Israel.

Go back and read my thread about MUSLIMS AGAINST TERRORISM.

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
if the sin is connected to the person than there is no point to make the distinction.

NO, the sin is not connected to the person, it stucks and we need to REMOVE IT.

Originally posted by Green_World
There is NO justification for killing any innocent civilian.

HOWEVER, the US killed MILLIONS of muslims in Iraq and indirectly in OCCUPIED PALESTINE by helping NAZI TERRORIST state called Israel.

Go back and read my thread about MUSLIMS AGAINST TERRORISM.

I'd rather be the gay loverboy of Mohamed than to go back and read your garbage again.

edit: moderators - i guess this one went to far. I could delete it, but green quoted it, so there is no use. It would still be there. Feel free to delete. Anyway, it was only meant for green. Other muslims...keep on rocking...

Moderator comment. Noted.

Originally posted by Green_World
NO, the sin is not connected to the person, it stucks and we need to REMOVE IT.

i hate to bring the news to you, but homosexuality is not something you can remove

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
I'd rather be the gay loverboy of Mohamed than to go back and read your garbage again.

OK then, dont forget to.

A-CROSS THE RED LIGHT and

B- take the :m: daily.

:p

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
i hate to bring the news to you, but homosexuality is not something you can remove

you CERTAINLY CAN.

In METRO newspaper, I have read that in the US they made an experiment on gays, 65% gave up the JOB after religious explanation.

I dont have the link, but I will find it for you.

Originally posted by Green_World
OK then, dont forget to.

A-CROSS THE RED LIGHT and

B- take the :m: daily.

:p

i thought it was clear that I do not accept your authority and therefore also not your advice

Originally posted by Green_World
you CERTAINLY CAN.

In METRO newspaper, I have read that in the US they made an experiment on gays, 65% gave up the JOB after religious explanation.

I dont have the link, but I will find it for you.


wonderful...it must be true then

Green_World,

This forum has MANY sections, one of them called RELIGION, it is for people who have RELIGION, since you guys are HOPLESS people with no RELIGION, you have no MORAL right to be in this section( that's of course, if you know what morality means !).No, this forum is for those that want to discuss religious issues. It is NOT intended to be a soap box for religionists.

Also please note that a member has been recently banned for continually posting blanket ad hominem attacks to large groups of other members. Please consider this a warning and try to moderate your tone and be more courteous to other members.

Originally posted by Green_World
NO, the sin is not connected to the person, it stucks and we need to REMOVE IT.

Let me introduce to you my friend Adnan Ali, he dosen't live too far from your neighborhood! drop and say hello!

I Am A Muslim Homosexual
by Sulyaman X taken from ReCreations: Religion and Spirituality in the Lives of Queer People, which is nominated for a Lambda Literary Award 2001 in the Spirituality/Religion category.
I am a homosexual. I have always been a homosexual. There has never been a time when I wasn't. It would be dishonest to say otherwise. I am also a Muslim, and, inshalla, God willing, shall die a Muslim proclaiming my belief that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His Prophet.
http://www.qtonline.com/episodes/week217/adnan.asp

Originally posted by Green_World
NO, the sin is not connected to the person, it stucks and we need to REMOVE IT.

Green World, it looks like you gonna lot of removing to do. Here are some places were you could practice with Muslims;

http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/queermuslims/
This is a page for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered Muslims, and for allies

http://www.glas.org/
We serve as a networking organization for Gays and Lesbians of Arab descent or those living in Arab countries

"The MECCA of Muslim Homosexuals"
http://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/world/111098wo.htm
'Islamic Anti-Gay Prejudices are Culture-Based, Not Quran-Caused'

http://www.yoesuf.nl/engels/book_project.html
YOESUF Foundation has recently published a book on the relationship between Islam and homosexuality. The content has a scholarly, informative character and is based on the Islamic sources. In the past years YOESUF Foundation’s researcher Omar Nahas explored the topic of Islam and homosexuality in depth

Boy, you gonna have your hands full wan't you?

:o