The United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) said Friday that when 374 government schools re-open their doors in Gaza to a quarter of a million students returning from winter break tomorrow, parents, teachers and children will be hoping classrooms will operate without having heat nor light.

An official who runs schools in Rafah, Gaza's southernmost district, Saeed Harb, said that even before the fuel cuts, power shortages meant that children were already cold in classrooms.

"Many rooms didn't have light simply because there were no longer any light bulbs in the market. Palestinian children are finding it almost impossible to learn, and you can see it in their failing marks," he added.

On Wednesday, Israel's Supreme Court declared legal the reductions to the fuel and electricity supply of Gaza. For students, this could mean even colder classrooms and fewer classes.

Gaza relies on Israel for fuel to generate electricity and water.

Israel has restricted the entry of everything but survival basics such as fuel, food and medicine into Gaza since June of last year, when Hamas, which won elections in 2006, forcibly excised the Palestinian Authority from power.

In October, Israel cut energy supplies to Gaza's 1.4 million residents in response to militants firing rockets at the nearby Israeli town of Sderot, and on 17 January, with even more Qassams landing in Sderot, Israel shut off all energy sources.

Gaza's main power plant shut down three days later for lack of fuel, leaving households in large parts of the tiny coastal territory without light, heat or running water.

Hospitals switched to emergency generators, cutting back on non-critical services. Raw sewage was released into the sea at a rate of 30 million litters per day. Israel has agreed to restore energy supplies to Gaza, but at far below the pre-June levels.

January's fuel cuts fell upon a population already reeling from months of closures and restrictions, a population, UNICEF Special Representative Patricia McPhillips stressed, predominantly made up of children.

"Some 56 percent of Gazans are under 18 years old," said McPhillips said.

This means, she added, that children are bearing the brunt of restrictions, whether it is of food, fuel or school supplies.

Enrolment levels and test scores tell a story of deep decline, McPhillips said. Enrolment figures for grades 1-10 have dropped from a peak of 96.8% in 2000-2001, to 91.2% in 2006-2007. Learning achievement is plummeting.

An UNRWA survey in its Gaza schools in 2007 showed that 66% to 90% of children in grades four to nine failed math, and 61% in grade eight-failed Arabic.

UNICEF spokesperson in Geneva Veronique Taveau told reporters that to respond to power shortages, UNICEF and partners are delivering safe drinking water to 220 schools each day once school re-opens on 2 February and Providing emergency education supplies to make up for lack of resources in classrooms, partly due to restrictions on goods coming into Gaza since June 2007.

She added that UNICEF would be constructing five 5-cubic meter stationary storage tanks, and three 1-cubic-meter mobile storage tanks for emergency use near water pumping stations.

Among other measures, she said, next week, UNICEF will provide 60 bicycles to help water facility staff monitor and operate water pumping stations; and protection kits (50 suits and 100 boots) for sewage facility staff.

http://www.indianmuslims.info/news/2008/feb/02/palestinian_children_gaza_return_school_without_he at_or_light_unicef.html

How this is going to create a population that will be productive or even amenable to resolution is beyond me. :(

as usual the UN backed by the oil reached countries of the ME is using children in the propaganda war against israel.

so whats the point? israeli children are no even part of the equation, so why should we pay attention?

you cant exactly confuse the UN with objectivity whe it come to israel.

there are worse places for children in the world, yet they dont get any attention or funds at all because of the self centered palestinians.

as usual the UN backed by the oil reached countries of the ME is using children in the propaganda war against israel.

so whats the point? israeli children are no even part of the equation, so why should we pay attention?

you cant exactly confuse the UN with objectivity whe it come to israel.

there are worse places for children in the world, yet they dont get any attention or funds at all because of the self centered palestinians.

And this?

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n00m1pu8qd2knw3x/

The prevalence and determinants of PTSD were assessed among 121 Palestinian children (6–16 years; 45% girls and 55% boys) living in the area of bombardment. The mothers (21–55 years) and the children themselves reported their exposure to military violence (being personally the target of violence or witnessing it towards others) and symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorders (PTSD: intrusion, avoidance and hypervigilance). The results showed that 54% of the children suffered from severe, 33.5 % from moderate and 11 % from mild and doubtful levels of PTSD. Girls were more vulnerable; 58% of them suffered from severe PTSD, and none scored on the mild or doubtful levels of PTSD.

And this?

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n00m1pu8qd2knw3x/

maybe its due the fact half of the qassam rockets hamas is firing fall inside gaza territory not in israel. or is it the checkpoint hamas established, constant firing in the streets and intimidation that are at fault.


ill bet not a word on those in the UN report? :D

Thats not a UN report. :)

You're running a factory for suicide terrorism. What future are you making for Israel?

what about the kids in Kenya, Darfur, Zimbabwe???

what about the kids in Kenya, Darfur, Zimbabwe???

Sure, start a thread. :)

Unlike all those problems, all this requires is for Israel to recognise the Palestinians as humans.

Thats not a UN report. :)

You're running a factory for suicide terrorism. What future are you making for Israel?

were running? we the ones that give them money, medical aids, jobs and all those thing they shout and lie and say they dont have because we "deny" them that, and not the constant brainwash of comparing jews to pigs, denying israel existence, calling it a colonial state , advocating violence and terrorism and a policy of targeting civilians with explosives and rockets.


no that has got nothing to with it at all.

Sure, start a thread. :)

Unlike all those problems, all this requires is for Israel to recognise the Palestinians as humans.

LOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!

we the ones who compare them to pigs and swines, and quote the protocols of zion!


you sure you arent a comedian?

**BTW, does this mean you admit you care only for palestinians?

were running? we the ones that give them money, medical aids, jobs and all those thing they shout and lie and say they dont have because we "deny" them that, and not the constant brainwash of comparing jews to pigs, denying israel existence, calling it a colonial state , advocating violence and terrorism and a policy of targeting civilians with explosives and rockets. So may we conclude that the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian children is motivated by the hatred and contempt - and fear - of people such as yourself ?

So may we conclude that the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian children is motivated by the hatred and contempt - and fear - of people such as yourself ?

the same old tune. if it israelis it is hatred, if it is palestinian it is victim hood.

they set up the formula not me or my views, or my so called hatred. you always presume to know how others feel?

Mod Note: Let this thread be a sticky for all SAM's topics involving Gaza, and the Palestinian/Israel issue.

Do you wish to corral us all here for such discussion, or only Sam?

All, unless there is something distinctly different you want to address.

Please enforce our confinement with a firm hand, and a big stick- It is necessary for our learning.

All these similar threads seem to generate the same line of conversation, with the same participants, so why not combine them. I think this is a necessary measure for clarity and readability.

this is like curbing a hungry enraged kitten to a corner in a room, spidergoat.

Back on topic...

Hamas claimed responsibility for the latest suicide bombings in Israel. Why shouldn't they be sanctioned? Why should Israel trade with them?

Back on topic...

Hamas claimed responsibility for the latest suicide bombings in Israel. Why shouldn't they be sanctioned? Why should Israel trade with them?

because Israel stole land from them.

You mean Israel?

You mean Israel?

I mean whatever they call their "holy land" spattered with blood upon their own religion embedded in lies

There's plenty of Jewish blood there, the Romans massacred hundreds of thousands before the Arab squatters showed up.

Good thing the Canaanites were there to keep house for the next 2000 years.

Just like they'd been there before the Israelis moved in. :shrug:

The name Land of Canaan is mentioned frequently in the the Bible. It predates the Land of Israel name and describes the same land [5]. The classical Jewish view, as explained by Schweid, is that Canaan is the geographical name; the renaming as Israel prior to its conquest by the the people of Israel marks its sanctification, the origin of the Holy Land concept [6]

When the Balfour Agreement was signed in 1917, Jews were less than 10% of the population.

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/images/ispalpopchart1.gif

Which is less than the Hispanic (14%) or African American (12%) population of the USA

What percentage of the "Palestinians" actually lived in land that is now Israel? Because it couldn't include anyone under 60 years old.

Thats not a UN report. :)

You're running a factory for suicide terrorism. What future are you making for Israel?

Really? Then why is it always Moslems who are commiting suicide bombings, it would seem that it is the Palestinians who are running the factory that turn out suicide bombers.

How about a citation of a Israeli suicide bomber, or a American, British or any other none Moslem suicide bomber today, Tammal Tigers, excluded.


Islamic laws oppose the practice.

This religious prohibition has had the intended effect. According to Franz Rosenthal, a scholar of the subject, ''suicide was of comparatively rare occurrence'' in traditional Muslim society. In contemporary Egypt, statistics bear out that suicide is exceedingly rare.

But those spokesmen are not telling the whole story, for Islamists consider suicide as not just legitimate, but highly commendable when undertaken for reasons of jihad (holy war). Going into war knowing with the certainty that one will die, they argue, is not suicide (intihar) but martyrdom (istishhad), a much-praised form of self-sacrifice in the path of God, a way to win the eternal affection of the houris in paradise.

A leading Islamist authority, Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, recently explained the distinction this way: attacks on enemies are not suicide operations, but ''heroic martyrdom operations'' in which the kamikazes act not ''out of hopelessness and despair, but are driven by an overwhelming desire to cast terror and fear into the hearts of the oppressors.''

In other words, Islamists find suicide for personal reasons abominable, suicide for jihad admirable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But here we have the Story of a young man from Jordan, Hotari, who goes to the West Bank and become a suicide bomber.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ZARQA, Jordan -- The Hotaris are preparing for a party to celebrate the killing of 21 Israelis this month by their son, a suicide bomber.

Neighbors hang pictures on their trees of Saeed Hotari holding seven sticks of dynamite. They spray-paint graffiti reading ''21 and counting'' on their stone walls. And they arrange flowers in the shapes of a heart and a bomb to display on their front doors.
''I am very happy and proud of what my son did and, frankly, am a bit jealous,'' says Hassan Hotari, 54, father of the young man who carried out the attack June 1 outside a disco in Tel Aviv. It was Israel's worst suicide bombing in nearly four years. ''I wish I had done (the bombing). My son has fulfilled the Prophet's (Mohammed's) wishes. He has become a hero! Tell me, what more could a father ask?''

In more than a dozen interviews with former and current members of the militant group Hamas and with Israeli security officials who track them, USA TODAY was given a rare look into the secretive and terrifying world of suicide bombers and the culture that creates them.

Lured by promises of financial stability for their families, eternal martyrdom and unlimited sex in the afterlife, dozens of militant Palestinians like Hotari aspire to blow themselves up, Israeli and Palestinian officials say. Their goal: to kill or injure as many Jews as possible in the hope that Israel will withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank. Israel captured the land in 1967.
(...)

Since 1993, nearly 190 people have been killed and thousands injured in 28 suicide bombings in Israel.
(...)

''When I walk outside, young (Palestinian) children come up to me and say, 'Conduct another bombing to make us happy, sheik,' '' says Sheik Hasan Yosef, 45, the senior Hamas leader in the West Bank city of Ramallah. ''I cannot disappoint them. They won't have to wait long.''

At any time, Israeli officials believe, Hamas has from five to 20 men, ages 18 to 23, awaiting orders to carry out suicide attacks. The group also claims to have ''tens of thousands'' of youths ready to follow in their footsteps. ''We like to grow them,'' Yosef says. ''From kindergarten through college.''

In Hamas-run kindergartens, signs on the walls read: ''The children of the kindergarten are the shaheeds (holy martyrs) of tomorrow.'' The classroom signs at Al-Najah University in the West Bank and at Gaza's Islamic University say, ''Israel has nuclear bombs, we have human bombs.''

At an Islamic school in Gaza City run by Hamas, 11-year-old Palestinian student Ahmed's small frame and boyish smile are deceiving. They mask a determination to kill at any cost. ''I will make my body a bomb that will blast the flesh of Zionists, the sons of pigs and monkeys,'' Ahmed says. ''I will tear their bodies into little pieces and cause them more pain than they will ever know.''

''Allahu Akbar,'' his classmates shout in response: ''God is great.''

''May the virgins give you pleasure,'' his teacher yells, referring to one of the rewards awaiting martyrs in paradise. Even the principal smiles and nods his approval.

''You don't start educating a shaheed at age 22,'' says Roni Shaked, a terrorism expert and former officer in Israel's Shin Bet secret service. ''You start at kindergarten so by the time he's 22, he's looking for an opportunity to sacrifice his life.''

Some suicide bombers, like Hotari, come to their deadly missions by a slightly different route. They turn themselves into human bombs because they are frustrated by the economic and political duress Palestinians experience in Jordan and throughout the region.

Hamas says its recruiters, most of whom Israeli officials describe as charismatic religious leaders, look for two qualities in a potential bomber: an intense interest in Islam and a clean criminal record so as not to raise the suspicions of Israel's secret service.

Saeed Hotari, who was 22, fit both of those criteria. He was ''a devout Muslim who used to pray, observed fasting and performed all his religious obligations to the letter and spirit,'' his father says. One of nine children, he left Zarqa, outside the Jordanian capital of Amman, for the West Bank city of Qalqilya in 1999 to seek a better life.

In Qalqilya, he and two other Palestinian youths went to a mosque where Sheik Jamel Tawil, a Hamas leader, persuaded them to attend a Hamas-run class on Islamic study. All would eventually be suicide bombers and would carry out their attacks within days of each other.
(...)

After several weeks of schooling, the youths often volunteer to be suicide bombers, Yosef says. ''If someone confiscated your land, demolished your home, built settlements to prevent you from coming back, killed your children and blocked you from going to work, wouldn't you want to fight for your country?'' Yosef asks.

In return for ''martyrdom,'' Hamas tells the youths that their families will be financially compensated, their pictures will be posted in schools and mosques, and they will earn a special place in heaven.

They also are promised something more risqué: unlimited sex with 72 virgins in heaven. The Koran, the sacred book of Islam, describes the women as ''beautiful like rubies, with complexions like diamonds and pearls.'' In one of the passages of the Koran, it is said the martyrs and virgins shall ''delight themselves, lying on green cushions and beautiful carpets.'' Since the time of Mohammed, martyrs have always been considered those willing to die defending Islam.

For some young Muslims, that offer is too much to turn down.

''I know my life is poor compared to Europe or America, but I have something awaiting me that makes all my suffering worthwhile,'' says Bassam Khalifi, 16, a Hamas youth leader in Gaza's Bureij refugee camp. ''Most boys can't stop thinking about the virgins.''

But in the end, says Shaked, the Israeli terrorism expert, most of the bombers don't sign up for martyrdom for the promise of unlimited sex. ''They join because of their absolute devotion to God and their desire to die with Jewish blood on their hands,'' he says. ''It's not a heroic thing, it's a holy thing.''

A would-be bomber is selected for his mission only days, sometimes hours, before it is to occur, Israeli officials say. As part of the preparation, the recruit is taken to a cemetery, where he is told to prepare for death by lying between gravesites for hours. He wears a white, hooded shroud normally used to cover bodies for burial, a former Hamas member says.

The recruit is then taken to a safe house. A video is made in which he states his consent to become a suicide bomber and his devotion to Islam. It will be played for the public after his death. A still photograph is taken that will be reproduced and displayed through the West Bank and Gaza to honor him after death.

Because secrecy is paramount, Hamas leaders will not allow the recruit to say goodbye to his family or tell them his plans.
(...)

Once at the target site, the recruit is told to remain calm, blend in as much as possible and, when surrounded by Israelis, press a switch to explode the bomb, Hamas members say.
(...)

On June 1, it was Hotari's turn. Israeli officials, quoting eyewitnesses, say two Hamas operatives drove him to the Dolphin Disco in Tel Aviv, a popular club often packed with Russian immigrant teenagers. They said Hotari slipped unnoticed into line and positioned himself among several girls, including a 14-year-old who had survived Marmash's attack in Netanya.

Then, while flirting with one of the girls, Hotari triggered the explosives. The blast was so intense that it tore limbs from the victims' bodies, scattered their flesh up to six blocks away and vaporized Hotari and the girl next to him.

It killed 21 people, in addition to Hotari, and injured nearly 100.

Now, nearly 30 days later, his parents are preparing to mark the anniversary of his death, as devout Muslims often do.

''My prayer is that Saeed's brothers, friends and fellow Palestinians will sacrifice their lives, too,'' Hotari's father says. ''There is no better way to show God you love him.''

Devotion, desire drive youths to 'martyrdom' : Palestinians in pursuit of paradise turn their own bodies into weapons, USA Today, June 26, 2001

they killed them through the years, masking with media their acts. They killed thousands with hunger and diseases, while defending themselves with "palestinians' terrorist acts" media. Their children died thousands for one Jewish child. They cried for help but countries could care less, they were already rooted. They did what they could, they fought for their freedom and were labeled terrorists.

AND that was not enough for them, they built stone walls with barber electrified wire around the Palestine...and killed those who dared cross back to their land.

MEANWHILE the other countries could care less and trumpeted the evil "palestinian terrorists" campaign

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/333772451_5e218ce0cd.jpg

They gave some land (trash) to Palestine
http://dusteye.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/iraq-hunger.jpg

They kept the rest of the land (holy) for their Israel
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7826/fruitva1.jpg

Democraphic change leads to political change. What's so sinister about that? What's up with all the surrounding predominately Arab and Muslim nations who saw the fake refugee crisis as an opportunity to stick it to the Jews?

What percentage of the "Palestinians" actually lived in land that is now Israel? Because it couldn't include anyone under 60 years old.

There are no figures for the land of Israel (which occupies almost all the land now anyway) before 1949.

Except this:

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.jpg

Democraphic change leads to political change. What's so sinister about that? What's up with all the surrounding predominately Arab and Muslim nations who saw the fake refugee crisis as an opportunity to stick it to the Jews?

Fake refugee crisis is right. None of the western nations considered them refugee enough for their own states at the time. But expected the Palestinians who were promised self determination for the first time should.

Thats not a UN report. :)

You're running a factory for suicide terrorism. What future are you making for Israel?
One with more walls and check points to keep out the suicide bombers at least until the Palestinians get tired of blowing themselves up. Probably another 1500 years or so.

One with more walls and check points to keep out the suicide bombers at least until the Palestinians get tired of blowing themselves up. Probably another 1500 years or so.

Well the Israelis decided to come back after 2000 years. :shrug:

There are no figures for the land of Israel (which occupies almost all the land now anyway) before 1949.

Except this:

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.jpg
What always gets me about this fixation on Israel is this:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/israel_bordering_states_pol_1970.jpg
You've got this little tiny geographic area occupied by Jews, and this gigantic area surrounding it occupied by Muslims. But the Muslims are all up in arms about Israel? Surely the Palestinians could have been easily absorbed by some of the gigantic Muslim countries that surround Israel and take up 99% of the space in the middle east?

So? Are you willing to give up part of the US to China? Or Iraq?

To the Palestinians, who do not consider themselves Saudi, Morroccan or Iraqi and did not move even even it was all under the Ottomans, it is home.

In fact, having a Jewish state on land that belongs to Muslims, Christians and Jews is more problematic. Why not convert Jerusalem into a Vatican City for all three religions? And move Israel to the US? They'd love to live there, I'm sure. Their own Jewish state and all in the middle of their allies. I'm pretty sure the Palestinians would not mind sharing with any Jews who wanted to stay with them.

I would prefer for the Israelis to recognise the Palestinians right to return, but if they MUST have a Jewish state wouldn't it be better to have a big one, like NY state for instance? They already have a sizeable Jewsih population and the Israelis would love it there. The Americans would vacate at once, I'm sure, they have plenty of space to spare. Much bigger than the Middle East.

Again, lets remember that Palestinians are a people, Yes, a majority of them are Muslim, but they are a people with their land. that many of them built and lived on with their families etc.
Why doesn't Bush give up his family ranch to have it occupied by Israeli's ?
There were a lot of huge Jewish friendly countries in the west too.

oh the poor children!

FFS

divert your resources from propaganda/bomb making to building power plants (or fuck, BUYING electricity from neighbouring Egypt... or DOUBLE fuckity fuck - use the donated cash from the entire world)

and THE CHILDREN WILL BE FREE!

oh the poor children!

FFS

divert your resources from propaganda/bomb making to building power plants (or fuck, BUYING electricity from neighbouring Egypt... or DOUBLE fuckity fuck - use the donated cash from the entire world)

and THE CHILDREN WILL BE FREE!

Thats great! Israel has moved back to its Green line? Removed the settlements? Given right of return to refugees? Awesome! :yay:

i was depressed because my parents divorce. so i decided to suicide bomb. :bawl:


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3503275,00.html

Thats great! Israel has moved back to its Green line? Removed the settlements? Given right of return to refugees? Awesome! :yay:

That's awesome! Hamas has stopped sending depressed kids to kill Jewish kids? Hamas recognized Israel as a Jewish state? Hamas has renounced terrorism? Huh? What? No? AWESOME :yay:

That's awesome! Hamas has stopped sending depressed kids to kill Jewish kids? Hamas recognized Israel as a Jewish state? Hamas has renounced terrorism? Huh? What? No? AWESOME :yay:

Right. Still under occupation then? Still discriminated on the basis of religion? :(

Right. Still under occupation then? Still discriminated on the basis of religion? :(

Hamas, Hizb et al. doesn't discriminate though. they bomb whoever's there without checking if they're Jews or not.

Hamas, Hizb et al. doesn't discriminate though. they bomb whoever's there without checking if they're Jews or not.

Unlike the IDF.

Soldiers assaulted and arrested Issa ‘Amro, a B'Tselem fieldworker, in Hebron yesterday. ‘Amro was arrested while filming a disturbance by settlers in the Wadi Hsein neighborhood in East Hebron.

Yesterday evening (January 19), a group of settlers began throwing stones at a Palestinian home and trying to forcefully enter it. Although a large force of soldiers and police were present, they did nothing to protect the Palestinians and remove the settlers. Two B'Tselem workers were filming the incident from across the street, where they stood along with a number of Palestinians and international activists. The commander of the Shimshon battalion, a lieutenant colonel, came up to ‘Amro and demanded that he stop filming. A group of settler women then gathered around the B'Tselem workers and two of them tried to grab ‘Amro's camera. A number of soldiers joined in the fray, beat ‘Amro and then arrested him. They then took him to an army jeep and beat him again. Later, B'Tselem was told that ‘Amro was arrested on suspicion of attacking the soldiers.

B'Tselem says it has several video tapes documenting the incident, which prove that ‘Amro was the one assaulted by the soldiers. The organization is preparing to file complaints to the police on the assault and the false arrest.

B’Tselem notes that lately, there has been a rise in assaults by soldiers on B’Tselem workers filming violent settlers in Hebron. The assaulting soldiers usually claim that the act of filming is a provocation in itself. While government and military officials endlessly reiterate the importance of human rights organizations in Israel, this appears to be mere lip service when it comes to the attitude of security forces towards human rights defenders in Hebron. These statements appear to serve as a guise for a policy of systematically harassing human rights defenders.

News from Israel

24 Jan 2007: Israeli Human Rights Organizations: End the Siege on Gaza

We, Israeli human rights organizations, publicly support the joint Palestinian-Israeli international campaign to end the siege on the Gaza Strip immediately.

Although the toppling of the fence at the Egyptian border temporarily eased the stranglehold, the million and a half residents of Gaza still depend almost entirely on importation of goods, fuel, and electricity through crossings controlled by Israel. There is also concern that in response to the border breakthrough, Israel will step up punitive measures against the population.

As Israeli human rights organizations, we cannot remain silent while the siege continues, bringing in its wake a humanitarian crisis.

The firing of Qassam rockets at Israeli civilian targets is criminal and abhorrent. It is Israel’s duty to defend its citizens, but collectively punishing an entire civilian population, of which most are not involved in the hostilities and over half are under 14, is illegal, improper, and immoral.

Participating organizations: The Association for Civil Rights in Israel, B'Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, Amnesty-Israel, Bimkom - Planners for Planning Rights, Gisha - Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, Hamoked: Center for the Defence of the Individual, The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel, Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, Yesh Din - Volunteers for Human Rights


Awesome!

http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20080124.asp

alrighty then
Hamas shouldn't complain about having no electricity in Gaza then.

renounce terrorism and start TALKING instead of WARRING... oh yea... they dont even have to do that. they get the most per-capita aid in the history of aid. more than the Tibetans or Ivory Coast-ans or Sudanese etc. etc. plus they're the darlings of the oil-rich Muslim world. why can't any of their bretheren help them out?

oh wait, why can't they themselves build powerplants?

So? Are you willing to give up part of the US to China? Or Iraq?

In fact, having a Jewish state on land that belongs to Muslims, Christians and Jews is more problematic. Why not convert Jerusalem into a Vatican City for all three religions? And move Israel to the US? They'd love to live there, I'm sure. Their own Jewish state and all in the middle of their allies. I'm pretty sure the Palestinians would not mind sharing with any Jews who wanted to stay with them.

I would prefer for the Israelis to recognise the Palestinians right to return, but if they MUST have a Jewish state wouldn't it be better to have a big one, like NY state for instance? They already have a sizeable Jewsih population and the Israelis would love it there. The Americans would vacate at once, I'm sure, they have plenty of space to spare. Much bigger than the Middle East.
I wouldn't give them New York. But we've got plenty of federal land that's completely unoccupied. They can have a chunk of that the size of Israel, no problem. I doubt they'd take the offer, though.

Have the Isaeli's ever considered buying off the Palestinians? Buy them some land in some Muslim country, a house, etc in exchange for signing away any right to return to Isreal or "Palestine" for them or their decendents? Kind of a 40 acres and a mule type deal. Surely living on your own farm in Egypt or Iraq or whatever would be preferable to living in a refugee camp?

alrighty then
Hamas shouldn't complain about having no electricity in Gaza then.

renounce terrorism and start TALKING instead of WARRING... oh yea... they dont even have to do that. they get the most per-capita aid in the history of aid. more than the Tibetans or Ivory Coast-ans or Sudanese etc. etc. plus they're the darlings of the oil-rich Muslim world. why can't any of their bretheren help them out?

oh wait, why can't they themselves build powerplants?

Hmm did you miss the fact that they are under occupation?

Israel blew up all but one of their generators last year.

Not to mention the import export policies

Since Hamas ousted Fatah there in the summer of 2007, the shipment of goods to the Strip has been restricted almost totally to basic foods, medicines, medical equipment, cooking gas, gasoline and electricity. Karni, the main checkpoint for transfer of goods, earlier functioned in a spotty manner, but today it is completely shut. The code for importing goods to Gaza has been deleted from the computers of Israel's Customs Authority, which (according to the Paris Protocol) is supposed to collect the tariffs. The supply of fuel (except cooking gas) has been cut (without court interference). The electricity cut has not yet been implemented, but the shortage is already severe. Electricity and water are available only intermittently. Most of the industrial plants are closed for lack of raw materials and replacement parts. Hospitals, water and sewage services have been operating for the last year and a half (since Israel blew up the power plant) by means of emergency generators. Because replacement parts are lacking, the infrastructures are running down, and there is increasing danger of disaster. A harbinger was the bursting of the cesspool wall in Um al-Nassar last year, where five people drowned in a river of sewage.

And the "independence" of Palestinians

Gaza's economic dependence on Israel is the fruit of a deliberate policy that has been in effect for decades. Here as well as in the West Bank, Israel stymied any fledgling industry that might compete with it. It developed Gaza's dependence on it for electricity and gas. It turned the Gazans into a cheap labor force to serve Israeli industry—at first by having them commute into Israel and later by developing an industrial area at Checkpoint Erez. Israel also benefited from Gazan dependence on its products. When Karni was closed, among the loudest protestors were Israeli farmers. According to reports from the summer of 2007, about a fourth of the fruit grown in Israel was marketed in the Occupied Territories. The cut in gasoline shipments also made a dent in the income of Dor-Alon, the Israeli energy company supplying Gaza.

Yet Israel's conceptual change about Gaza is not consistent. Disengaged or not, it can't resist the temptation to exploit the Strip's resources. Parallel to the discussion on cutting energy supplies, there is another petition before the High Court that also concerns energy—but here the supply would go from Gaza to Israel. In this petition, two corporate groups are battling for an Israeli license to pump natural gas from the reservoir off Gaza's coast, a reservoir that—if Gaza belonged to a Palestinian state—would be in its territorial waters. The pumped gas is slated to become a major energy source in Israel's economy. Did the Justices happen to recall another case they are hearing, in which the State says it no longer occupies Gaza? If so, they haven't indicated this. Needless to say, no Justice cried in astonishment, "By what right do you intend to exploit the gas reserves of the Gaza Strip? This is against the provisions of international law, which forbid an occupying power from exploiting the natural resources of an occupied territory for its own use!"

http://www.countercurrents.org/wolfson210108.htm

even if your fantasy scenario is true, what's preventing them from taking care of themselves?

westbank is also "occupied", yet they have no problems with electricity or fuel. why is taht?

SAM u remind me of Britney Spears... get out of your fantasy world and go to rehab!!!

even if your fantasy scenario is true, what's preventing them from taking care of themselves?

westbank is also "occupied", yet they have no problems with electricity or fuel. why is taht?

Because they allow the settlements to go up without resistance?

Fanstasy scenarios:
http://www.gisha.org/index.php?intLanguage=2&system=homepage&intSiteSN=39

I wouldn't give them New York. But we've got plenty of federal land that's completely unoccupied. They can have a chunk of that the size of Israel, no problem. I doubt they'd take the offer, though.

Have the Isaeli's ever considered buying off the Palestinians? Buy them some land in some Muslim country, a house, etc in exchange for signing away any right to return to Isreal or "Palestine" for them or their decendents? Kind of a 40 acres and a mule type deal. Surely living on your own farm in Egypt or Iraq or whatever would be preferable to living in a refugee camp?

Nope New York would be best; they already have a Jewish community. There's lots of unoccupied land in Arabia too, but thats not important.

Could New Yorkers be given compensation in lieu of moving out? I'm sure the US would oblige its ally.

Not that their opinion is relevant, they'd just have to move out, but I'm not against some compensation if the UN is willing.

Nope New York would be best; they already have a Jewish community. There's lots of unoccupied land in Arabia too, but thats not important.

There was lots of unoccupied land in Palestine too, as I recall, but there was some kind of stink about it being bought up by Jewish people. I wonder how that turned out. "Back to your Quarter, accursed Yahudi?"

There was lots of unoccupied land in Palestine too, as I recall, but there was some kind of stink about it being bought up by Jewish people. I wonder how that turned out. "Back to your Quarter, accursed Yahudi?"

GeoffP is back? :D

Not that their opinion is relevant, they'd just have to move out, but I'm not against some compensation if the UN is willing.
Well, SAM, their opinion is relevant because, unlike the Palestinians in the forties, New York is under the protection of the most powerful army in the world. So any such deal would have to be voluntary. Perhaps if the Ottomen Empire hadn't sided with the Nazi's, things might have gone differently.

Regardless, the Jews control Israel. It's there's. It has been for over half a century. You may complain that the Palestinians were there first. Well, the Jews were there before that.

Oh well, when Ahmadinejad finishes his nuke (you know, the one that the latest report says he's not making), he'll kill all the Palestinians along with any Israelis who don't get into the bomb shelters they're building now. So that should finally solve that problem!

Nope New York would be best; they already have a Jewish community. There's lots of unoccupied land in Arabia too, but thats not important.

Could New Yorkers be given compensation in lieu of moving out? I'm sure the US would oblige its ally.

Not that their opinion is relevant, they'd just have to move out, but I'm not against some compensation if the UN is willing.

WTF?????

can someone get rid of this troll?

Right. Still under occupation then? Still discriminated on the basis of religion? :(

you have no problem reallocating people based on their religion. nah

Well, SAM, their opinion is relevant because, unlike the Palestinians in the forties, New York is under the protection of the most powerful army in the world. So any such deal would have to be voluntary. Perhaps if the Ottomen Empire hadn't sided with the Nazi's, things might have gone differently.

The US hired the Nazis after everyone knew what they had done and closed its doors to the Jews instead. They don't need an army, they'll be happy to do it. :)

Unlike the uneducated, backward Palestinians holding on to their "little" piece of land, the shining beacon of the vast USA will willingly give up its most valued NY state to its biggest ally. After all, relatively, its only a little piece of land, while for the Palestinians its almost the entire country thats been occupied.. :p

Besides there will be the added advantage of 200-300 nukes right there to defend the homeland.

The US hired the Nazis after everyone knew what they had done and closed its doors to the Jews instead. They don't need an army, they'll be happy to do it. :)

Unlike the uneducated, backward Palestinians holding on to their "little" piece of land, the shining beacon of the vast USA will willingly give up its most valued NY state to its biggest ally. After all, relatively, its only a little piece of land, while for the Palestinians its almost the entire country thats been occupied.. :p

Besides there will be the added advantage of 200-300 nukes right there to defend the homeland.


Really then why do we have the largest population of Jews in the World?

Three of the top six cities for Jewish population in the world are in the America.

Tel Aviv - Israel - 2,560,000
New York - U.S. - 1,970,000
Haifa - Israel - 655,000
Los Angeles - U.S. - 621,000
Jerusalem - Israel - 570,000
Miami - U.S. - 514,000

Explain this:

Rank.................... Country...........Jews........... % Jewish.......% of all Jews
1..........................United States.. 6,150,000........2%..................38.62%
2..........................Israel..............5,6 00,000........80%................35.7%

If we excluded Jews then why do we have the largest population of Jews in the world living in our country, even more than Israel?

India is only number 30, plenty of room for more Israelis.

30.........................India................15 ,405............0.005%...........<0.5%

S.A.M. your not checking facts.

SAM, the Middle East is full of Arabs, which is all the "Palestinians" are. The Middle East is also a big place.

Maybe we should just send a few nukes in Israel and then both Israelis and Palestenians wont want to live there.

I had it with both Israelis and Palestenians ...

That's the goal of the media war, the perception of perfectly equal injustice.

Well, SAM, their opinion is relevant because, unlike the Palestinians in the forties, New York is under the protection of the most powerful army in the world. So any such deal would have to be voluntary. Perhaps if the Ottomen Empire hadn't sided with the Nazi's, things might have gone differently.

Regardless, the Jews control Israel. It's there's. It has been for over half a century. You may complain that the Palestinians were there first. Well, the Jews were there before that.

Oh well, when Ahmadinejad finishes his nuke (you know, the one that the latest report says he's not making), he'll kill all the Palestinians along with any Israelis who don't get into the bomb shelters they're building now. So that should finally solve that problem!

the ottomen empire no longer existed by ww2

Because they allow the settlements to go up without resistance?

[/url]

alright, lets go with your fantasy scenario again:

1) you admit it depends on their (Palis') choice on whether to get electricity or not

2) Britney, those are not "settlements" in the sense you think of them (i suspect this will flip a switch with you and you'll go on a long anti-Semetic rant ... 3..2..1..)

3) Abbas, Fayyad and company have some common sense, which is that they'll never beat Israel militarily or with war crimes, and that it makes sense and is better for the Palis in the short, medium, and long term interests to have talks instead.

i know #2 and #3 will totally go over your head, so just stick with #1.

and TAKE THOSE DAMN MEDICINES!
it's time.

I had it with both Israelis and Palestenians ...

no man. what you're really fed up with is a obsessive compulsive virgin troll that posts 100 posts a day and ruins any intelligent discussion with tangents and fallacies.

Perspective:

The shelling of Sderot continues. Numerous residents are in shock while others have been physically injured. The property of Sderot residents has been damaged, the city suffers from severe economic distress and many have already abandoned the area.

The ongoing failure of the Israeli government to assist Sderot does not stem from powerlessness, but from a cruel logic that mirrors the priorities of the Israeli political leadership. The sole happiness the government provides to Sderot in its difficult hour is schadenfreude—happiness from the suffering of others. Instead of assisting the victims, the government is creating new victims in Gaza: for every Sderot resident injured by a Qassam rocket, Israel’s military forces kill tens of Palestinians in Gaza. Does this situation provide any real comfort to the residents under attack in Sderot?

It is no wonder that the residents of Gaza elected a Hamas leadership. To date it is the sole body that has offered Gazans a way to resist the Israeli occupation. Hamas succeeded in making order on the streets of Gaza while Fatah acted as something akin to an additional arm of the Israeli government. The breaching of the border between Gaza and Egypt allowed the residents of Gaza a much needed infusion of goods and a temporary sense of freedom, and the Hamas thus gained additional points in the eyes of Gazans.

Just as Fatah disappointed the residents of Gaza, not to mention a majority of Palestinians in the West Bank, the government of Israel is disappointing the residents of the northwestern Negev. Capitulation to violent urges directed toward defenseless residents of Gaza is not a constructive response to the distress of the residents of the northwestern Negev. In actuality, the government does not have an answer to their distress.

Their comfort is instead derived from the distress of others, from the additional suffering of the Gaza residents. This comfort can only be short-lived and cannot solve the problems of Sderot and its environs. No one should be surprised, therefore, if in light of the ongoing neglect, the residents of the region will refuse to pay taxes, enlist in the military or demonstrate loyalty to the state which abandoned them, and on the backs of whom the state is waging a war of honor and ego. After the state abandoned them, they no longer owe it anything.Moreover, the fact that Israel kidnaps Palestinians and holds them for extended periods of time without trial, is actually an invitation for the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers and civilians to serve as bargaining chips to gain the freedom of Palestinian political prisoners.

To othhead:

Yeah the settlements are not just settlements. What they are is weakening the the world belief in the justice of an Israeli state.

West Bank:

Fatah rule in the West Bank has become a rule reliant on military force, as it has lost most of its legitimacy in the eyes of the Palestinian public. The regime of checkpoints, the Wall, the expansion of settlements, administrative detentions and the unceasing killing in the West Bank has clarified for the Palestinians that the Fatah does not offer them solutions. Therefore, the day is likely not far off when Qassams and perhaps even Katyusha rockets fired also from the cities of the West Bank the will begin to fall on Israel, as a desperate act of people trying to find a way out of their life of imprisonment imposed on them. If rockets begin to fall on Kfar Saba and West Jerusalem, it will no longer be possible to ignore it and look away. The government possesses no plan to prevent these aforementioned developments. On the contrary, Israeli policy continues to prove to the Palestinians that negotiations with Israel do not result in an improvement of their lives, and that only violent action is capable of influencing Israeli public opinion to notice the Palestinians.

As long as the government of Israel continues to delay and prevent negotiations, continues to expand the settlements and intentionally prevent any economic development in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, there will be no relief for the residents of the northwest Negev.

no man. what you're really fed up with is a obsessive compulsive virgin troll that posts 100 posts a day and ruins any intelligent discussion with tangents and fallacies.

what exactly do you call this "intelligent" discussion?

Really then why do we have the largest population of Jews in the World?

After 1950. The nazis got there immediately after WWII

Plus:

Depraved indifference, no surprises there

American and British WWII military intelligence authorities may have been aware of Adolph Hitler's "Final Solution" plan for the "eradication" of the Jews of Europe as early as 1942, according to documents just declassified under the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act of 1998.

According to a July 2, 2001 National Archives press release, by March 20, 1942, a surreptitiously obtained document appears in the files of the United States Coordinator of Information (COI), a predecessor to the Central Intelligence Agency, clearly discussing the Nazi intent to eradicate European Jewry. The document is a translated copy of a dispatch filed by a Chilean diplomat on November 24, 1941.

The document sheds new light on the longstanding question of how much the Western powers knew of the Holocaust. According to Thomas H Baer, "Warnings from the allies to the Jews of Europe of a planned genocide never came. The Nazi murders depended on secrecy and subterfuge. Warnings would not have stopped the Holocaust, but they could have saved lives." Baer is a public member of the Interagency Working Group (IWG), a group that coordinates the government-wide effort to declassify federal records related to Nazi and Axis war crimes,

Another IWG member, Elizabeth Holtzman added, "This recently declassified document helps pinpoint how much officials within our government knew about the Holocaust and when they knew it. The next question is why our government--not to mention the British--did nothing in response. It is unbearable to think that plans to 'eradicate' a Jewish population were a matter of such indifference."

That's the goal of the media war, the perception of perfectly equal injustice.

Its not perfectly equal




Palestine?

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7826/fruitva1.jpg

Israel?

http://dusteye.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/iraq-hunger.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7826/fruitva1.jpg

Damn! Who's that guy on the bottom right in the red shirt!?

~String

Damn! Who's that guy on the bottom right in the red shirt!?

~String

he's got a girlfriend, he is straight.

he's got a girlfriend, he is straight.

OH! You know him? It could be his sister, for all we know.

Besides, I was joking. Obviously, we know nothing, except that he's tall and has nice arms.

When you look at a picture of a hot chick, do you sit and sort out all the personal details, or do you just imagine her gumming your nether-regions?

~String

Today in Gaza:

Hamas rejects Abbas truce offer as Israel kills 7 in Gaza (http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=214182)

Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas offered to help negotiate a ceasefire as Israel pounded Gaza on Thursday, killing seven people days after a suicide bombing claimed by the Strip's Hamas rulers.

Hamas promptly rejected the offer, with spokesman Fawzi Barhum branding it a "blackmail attempt against the Palestinian people whom (Abbas) has left to be massacred."



Israel rebuffs Egypt-Gaza border deployments (http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=dff99568-53ef-4872-8440-906dd8cb11f5&k=12789)

Israeli leaders rejected proposals to secure the Gaza Strip's breached frontier with Egypt with additional Egyptian border guards or an international force, government officials said on Wednesday.

Israel's Foreign Ministry had suggested giving the nod to Egypt to double the number of its guards at the border to 1,500. Under an Israeli-Egyptian peace agreement, the number of troops that can be deployed along the frontier is limited.

The officials said Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his security cabinet, which includes his foreign and defense ministers, rebuffed the idea, as well as the deployment of any international force at the frontier.

Israel adds more restrictions on Gaza power deliveries (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/07/2157287.htm?section=world)

Israel's move to cut energy supplies to the Gaza Strip violates the laws of war, Human Rights Watch (HRW) said in a report published on Thursday.

Aid groups have warned that the Israeli sanctions are set to tighten on Thursday with a reduction of electricity provided to the impoverished Hamas-run territory.

"Israel's cuts of fuel and electricity to Gaza, set to escalate today, amount to collective punishment of the civilian population, and violate Israel's obligations under the laws of war," the New York-based group said.

what exactly do you call this "intelligent" discussion?

it's been absent for so long (ever since The Britney Spears Of Sciforums has joined) that it's not surprising people don't know what it looks like

what exactly do you call this "intelligent" discussion?

Talking about Britney Spears in a thread about Gaza.:cool:

Talking about Britney Spears in a thread about Gaza.:cool:

we are discussing Orleander here...am I on the right page?

we are discussing Orleander here...am I on the right page?

We are talking about why a state that discriminates on the basis of religion by using military force to oppress who do not recognise it as a <insert religion> state is a beacon of secular democracy.

We are talking about why a state that discriminates on the basis of religion by using military force to oppress who do not recognise it as a <insert religion> state is a beacon of secular democracy.

ummm...before you go any further, S.A.M there are hungry parentless starving poor children in Africa as well as collapsing economies in some South American countries...well why are you focusing on Israelis and Palestinians? We all know their problems will never end, lets focus on something more humanistic like starving poor parent-less hungry victims of past wars little children in Africa.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/images/globalisation.jpg

ummm...before you go any further, S.A.M there are hungry parentless starving poor children in Africa as well as collapsing economies in some South American countries...well why are you focusing on Israelis and Palestinians? We all know their problems will never end, lets focus on something more humanistic like starving poor parent-less hungry victims of past wars little children in Africa.



Sure, but problems in Africa do not negate the suffering of Palestinians.

You could start a thread on what problems you think need to be addressed in Africa and how.

Sure, but problems in Africa do not negate the suffering of Palestinians.

You could start a thread on what problems you think need to be addressed in Africa and how.

ok....back to Palestine and Israel. We all know the problems. Now what solutions do you offer?

. Now what solutions do you offer?

I think the Palestinians should ask Israel for citizenship. Problem solved. They won't attack each other if its all one country. Everyone is happy.

Well, almost everyone (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3468672,00.html)

I think the Palestinians should ask Israel for citizenship. Problem solved. They won't attack each other if its all one country. Everyone is happy.

Well, almost everyone (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3468672,00.html)

added to the fact that is "almost everyone" ... how are Israeli's who believe in Judaism and Palestenian's who believe in Islam supposed to get along? How are Israelis and Palestenians supposed to forget their wars, blood, hatred? answer please.

draqon: "how are Israeli's who believe in Judaism and Palestenian's who believe in Islam supposed to get along? How are Israelis and Palestenians supposed to forget their wars, blood, hatred? answer please."

Just like they naturally do, and have done, all over the world, and all through time- absent the bitterness of forced ethnic segregation and the international tensions it causes, people get along much better everywhere. When the apartheid ends, the real reconciliation can begin, and not a day sooner.

draqon: "how are Israeli's who believe in Judaism and Palestenian's who believe in Islam supposed to get along? How are Israelis and Palestenians supposed to forget their wars, blood, hatred? answer please."

Just like they naturally do, and have done, all over the world, and all through time- absent forced ethnic segregation.

segregation is not a solution.

Israel keeps proving that proven case every day, in today's most insane double-blind demonstration: Repeating the same actions, while expecting a different result.

Today in Gaza:

Hamas rejects Abbas truce offer as Israel kills 7 in Gaza (http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=214182)



Israel rebuffs Egypt-Gaza border deployments (http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=dff99568-53ef-4872-8440-906dd8cb11f5&k=12789)



Israel adds more restrictions on Gaza power deliveries (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/07/2157287.htm?section=world)

good. no one is stupid enough to supply electricity to your enemies.

good. no one is stupid enough to supply electricity to your enemies.

good. no one is stupid enough to not fight for their own stolen land.

segregation is not a solution.


So you think we should have forced Yugoslavia to stay in one piece? Should we have prevented the Cheks and Slovaks from gaining independence seperately?

"Segregation" is just Sam's description of two nations living side by side independantly. She is against this notion because it would mean Jews would get self determination alongside Palestinians, something Sam, with her selective morality, would have none of. Therefore its only natural she support one large state, since Arab birth rates would guarantee Palestinian dominance.

Sadly, Sam represents the Palestinian version of the Zionist settlers, who crave for the whole cake, and do not believe in compromise.

good. no one is stupid enough to not fight for their own stolen land.

then they should go back to egypt and tunis.

I think the Palestinians should ask Israel for citizenship. Problem solved. They won't attack each other if its all one country. Everyone is happy.

Well, almost everyone (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3468672,00.html)

before or after you move the jews to new york? :eek:

So you think we should have forced Yugoslavia to stay in one piece? Should we have prevented the Cheks and Slovaks from gaining independence seperately?

"Segregation" is just Sam's description of two nations living side by side independantly. She is against this notion because it would mean Jews would get self determination alongside Palestinians, something Sam, with her selective morality, would have none of. Therefore its only natural she support one large state, since Arab birth rates would guarantee Palestinian dominance.

Sadly, Sam represents the Palestinian version of the Zionist settlers, who crave for the whole cake, and do not believe in compromise.

I see war as a solution, but not 10 year and forever war...pick up the weapon and destroy the enemy you see no other solution to deal with. Israeli and Palestenians should just launch their armies at each other, and bombard...bombard...bombard

Do it NOW

http://www.zchor.org/picsisrael/soldierIDF.jpg

then they should go back to egypt and tunis.

then they should go back to bringing back the land to Palestine and themselves get to live elsewhere.

I see war as a solution, but not 10 year and forever war...pick up the weapon and destroy the enemy you see no other solution to deal with. Israeli and Palestenians should just launch their armies at each other, and bombard...bombard...bombard

Do it NOW

http://www.zchor.org/picsisrael/soldierIDF.jpg

only palestinians are allowed to bombard.

only palestinians are allowed to bombard.

guess who is in that picture? your Israelis bombarding.

guess who is in that picture? your Israelis bombarding.

bombarding what? i thought that was a muslim. :shrug:

bombarding what? i thought that was a muslim. :shrug:

this is a picture of Israel army, the guy is a jew. IDF

this is a picture of Israel army, the guy is a jew. IDF

are they bombarding gaza?

are they bombarding gaza?

they are bombarding the countries around them...in this case it's Lebanon.

they are bombarding the countries around them...in this case it's Lebanon.

lebanon is a number of countries?

so what does it got to do with palestinians?

I see war as a solution, but not 10 year and forever war...pick up the weapon and destroy the enemy you see no other solution to deal with. Israeli and Palestenians should just launch their armies at each other, and bombard...bombard...bombard

Do it NOW

that kind of thing is only possible in Rwanda (with predictably sad results) where the world does not have stakes in the fight.

another reason this isn't possible in Israel is because Israelis are not warmongering bloodthirsty natural killers like the other side (who overwhelmingly approve suicide bombings). just cause they're stronger doesn't make them so.

that kind of thing is only possible in Rwanda (with predictably sad results) where the world does not have stakes in the fight.

another reason this isn't possible in Israel is because Israelis are not warmongering bloodthirsty natural killers like the other side (who overwhelmingly approve suicide bombings). just cause they're stronger doesn't make them so.

maybe thats our problem.

that kind of thing is only possible in Rwanda (with predictably sad results) where the world does not have stakes in the fight.

another reason this isn't possible in Israel is because Israelis are not warmongering bloodthirsty natural killers like the other side (who overwhelmingly approve suicide bombings). just cause they're stronger doesn't make them so.



maybe thats our problem.

Sadly true, The fact that Israelis are not blood thirsty killers, places you at extreme disadvantage, to People like the Palestinians who will kill their children to kill you.

Sadly true, The fact that Israelis are not blood thirsty killers, places you at extreme disadvantage, to People like the Palestinians who will kill their children to kill you.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3504227,00.html

Sadly true, The fact that Israelis are not blood thirsty killers, places you at extreme disadvantage, to People like the Palestinians who will kill their children to kill you.

In that case maybe they would share their peaceful weapons with the Palestinians?

In 2007 (up to 29 December), Israeli forces killed 373 Palestinians (290 in Gaza , 83 in the West Bank ), among them 53 minors. By comparison, in 2006, 657 Palestinians were killed, including 140 minors: 523 in Gaza , 134 in the West Bank . In 2007, about 35 percent of those killed were civilians who were not taking part in the hostilities when killed. This is a reduction in comparison with the number of casualties who did not participate in the hostilities in 2006, which was 54 percent, (348 persons).

Palestinians killed seven Israeli civilians (three in a suicide attack in Eilat, two in Sderot by Qassam attacks, and two by gunfire in the West Bank ). This is the lowest number of Israeli civilian casualties since the beginning of the Intifada. Palestinians also killed six Israeli security forces. In 2006, Palestinians killed 17 Israeli civilians.

In that case maybe they would share their peaceful weapons with the Palestinians?

The Palestinians aren't intrested in Peace....ful weapons.

So you think we should have forced Yugoslavia to stay in one piece? Should we have prevented the Cheks and Slovaks from gaining independence seperately?

"Segregation" is just Sam's description of two nations living side by side independantly. She is against this notion because it would mean Jews would get self determination alongside Palestinians, something Sam, with her selective morality, would have none of. Therefore its only natural she support one large state, since Arab birth rates would guarantee Palestinian dominance.

Sadly, Sam represents the Palestinian version of the Zionist settlers, who crave for the whole cake, and do not believe in compromise.

So Zionism is secular and asking to remove religious discrimination is an evil concept?

If the situation were reversed EXACTLY what would you think?

The US hired the Nazis after everyone knew what they had done and closed its doors to the Jews instead.

They hired a few rocket scientists. Not exactly the picture you're presenting.

That's the goal of the media war, the perception of perfectly equal injustice.

Interesting point.

I think the Palestinians should ask Israel for citizenship. Problem solved. They won't attack each other if its all one country.

Haw! That wasn't the case 80 years ago. In fact, reality is the exact opposite of your scenario. Any religious minority in an islamic country knows this.

Just like they naturally do, and have done, all over the world, and all through time- absent the bitterness of forced ethnic segregation and the international tensions it causes, people get along much better everywhere. When the apartheid ends, the real reconciliation can begin, and not a day sooner.

And when the apartheid is an integral part of the dominant religion? What then? It's been 1400 years without real reconciliation. Reconciliation would appear to have little to do with it; nor is the absence of separation any guarantor of peace, either immediate or eventual. Except the peace of the grave or abject subjugation, I suppose.

So...asking to remove religious discrimination is an evil concept?

In my experience of our debates, it appears to depend. When I ask for it, your response suggests that it is, in fact, evil, although it would appear obviously a good thing.

Amnesia is a wonderful thing
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/cia-j27.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/06/AR2006060601555.html

Amnesia is a wonderful thing
So is genetic disfunction.

Just ask the Palestinians: Poster children, all.

Hmm. Muslims all. What's up with that?

OK, some token Christian representation in amongst them.

Do the math.

So is genetic disfunction.

.

So, you support the Nazi Holocaust? Eugenics is the way?

So, you support the Nazi Holocaust? Eugenics is the way?

aint that funny. SAM is is criticizing others for the holocaust. :roflmao:

Amnesia is a wonderful thing
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/cia-j27.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/06/AR2006060601555.html

You were implying a bit more than running intelligence cells. As for those cells: nothing surprising in that. What intelligence agency wouldn't have done the same?

S.A.M. conveniently forgets about Operation ODESSA, that is the popular name but it was the routes to and through Egypt and the Middle East through which the Nazis escaped Nuremburg.

Nazi War Criminals in the Middle East? - Associated Content
May 31, 2007 ... ODESSA was a secret group that provided escape routes for Nazi ... After World War II, Egypt offered refuge for hundreds of fleeing Nazis. ...
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/262391/nazi_war_criminals_in_the_middle_east.html


Numerous former SS officers held key positions in the secret service and political police in Egypt. These included:

Joachim Däumling, former Gestapo chief in Düsseldorf, and later engaged in SS operations in Croatia. He was employed to set up the Egyptian secret service along the lines of the SS Reichssicherheitshauptamt (Himmler's Reich Security Main Office); he was helped by the former Gestapo chief of Warsaw who organised the security police.
SS General Oskar Dirlewanger, chief of the infamous SS penal brigade;
SS Major Eugen Eichberger, battalion-commander in the Dirlewanger brigade;
SS Colonel Leopold Gleim, chief of the Gestapo department for Jewish affairs in Poland;
SS Lieutenant Colonel Bernhard Bender, Gestapo official in Poland the USSR, whose knowledge of Yiddish enabled him to penetrate Jewish underground organisations;
SS General Heinrich Selimann, Gestapo chief in Ulm;
SS Major Schmalstich, Gestapo liaison officer to French collaborationists and organizer of Jewish transports from Paris to Auschwitz;
SS Major Seipal, Gestapo official in Paris;
SS General Alois Moser, a war criminal who was involved in the extermination of the Soviet Jews in the Ukraine;
SS officer Johannes von Leers (1902-1963), who had been responsible for anti-Semitic campaigns at Goebbels' propaganda ministry;
SS officer, Alois Brunner, who had held senior position in Adolph Eichmann's "Jewish Department", and is now believed to be living under the protection of the Syrian secret police in Damascus;
SS Major Walter Bollman, Nazi espionage chief in Britain before the war, and also involved in crimes against humanity and genocide against the Jews of the Ukraine;
SS official Louis Heiden, who was transferred to the Egyptian press office during the war;
Franz Bartel, and "old fighter" in the early days of the NSDAP in Germany, and Gestapo officer;
Walter Birgal, an SS officer from Leipzig;
Erich Bunz, a former SA major and expert in the "Jewish Question";
Albert Thielemann, a regional SS chief in Bohemia;
SS Captain Wilhelm Böckler, a war criminal who had precipitated in the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto;
Wehrmacht General Wilhelm Fahrmbacher, who took over the central planning staff in Cairo . . . .

Added to this were a number of former Nazi officials and sixty military experts, mostly former Waffen-SS men, who assisted in the training of the Egyptian army. Several of them were also linked in 1958 with the then Algerian government-in-exile. At least 200 German and Austrian scientists and other personnel were deployed in the new aircraft and missile centre at Helwan, where new staff physician was Dr. Hanns Eisele, SS Captain and medical torturer in the death camp at Buchenwald. Goodrick-Clarke says that President Gamal Abdel Nasser was "well disposed" towards the Nazis, all the more because they wished to take part in the destruction of Israel. The presence of so many Nazi's in Egypt under the Nasser regime was exposed in the world press in October 1962, and precipitated a crisis in the Israeli government (who had ordered MOSSAD to make try and kill several of the Nazi's), and embarrassment in West Germany, over the exposure of postwar Nazi collaboration with the Nasser regime.

Not surprisingly, the few remaining Egyptian Jews fled. From population of 75,000 Jews in 1948, by 1974 only 350 remained. In 1956, 4000 Jews were expelled, after being forced to renounce all property rights and financial claims. In 1957, all Egyptian Jews not in "continuous residence" since 1900 were deprived of citizenship. In 1960, many synagogues were closed down, along with Jewish orphanages, schools, hospitals and old peoples homes; and in 1967, all Jews in official positions were dismissed, with many more tortured and expelled.

Buffalo Paste: "Not surprisingly, the few remaining Egyptian Jews fled. From population of 75,000 Jews in 1948, by 1974 only 350 remained. In 1956, 4000 Jews were expelled, after being forced to renounce all property rights and financial claims. In 1957, all Egyptian Jews not in "continuous residence" since 1900 were deprived of citizenship. In 1960, many synagogues were closed down, along with Jewish orphanages, schools, hospitals and old peoples homes; and in 1967, all Jews in official positions were dismissed, with many more tortured and expelled."

Surely that had nothing to do with the creation of Israel, right, BR? Did you know there were Jews thriving all over the Mideast right before there was an Israel? Hmmm, kinda makes you stop and think for a second, doesn't it?

OK, your second's up. Get back onto your zionazimurdercycle and ride.

Buffalo Paste: "Not surprisingly, the few remaining Egyptian Jews fled. From population of 75,000 Jews in 1948, by 1974 only 350 remained. In 1956, 4000 Jews were expelled, after being forced to renounce all property rights and financial claims. In 1957, all Egyptian Jews not in "continuous residence" since 1900 were deprived of citizenship. In 1960, many synagogues were closed down, along with Jewish orphanages, schools, hospitals and old peoples homes; and in 1967, all Jews in official positions were dismissed, with many more tortured and expelled."

Surely that had nothing to do with the creation of Israel, right, BR? Did you know there were Jews thriving all over the Mideast right before there was an Israel? Hmmm, kinda makes you stop and think for a second, doesn't it?

OK, your second's up. Get back onto your zionazimurdercycle and ride.
zionazi???

In that case maybe they would share their peaceful weapons with the Palestinians?

So Zionism is secular and asking to remove religious discrimination is an evil concept?

If the situation were reversed EXACTLY what would you think?



Zionism is the national movement of the Jews, simple as that. Just as Palestinians deserve the right of self determination seperate from other people, so do Jews. You can backtrack and twist it all you want, but I find your selective morality on national rights to be deeply hypocritical.

Buffalo Paste: "Not surprisingly, the few remaining Egyptian Jews fled. From population of 75,000 Jews in 1948, by 1974 only 350 remained. In 1956, 4000 Jews were expelled, after being forced to renounce all property rights and financial claims. In 1957, all Egyptian Jews not in "continuous residence" since 1900 were deprived of citizenship. In 1960, many synagogues were closed down, along with Jewish orphanages, schools, hospitals and old peoples homes; and in 1967, all Jews in official positions were dismissed, with many more tortured and expelled."

Surely that had nothing to do with the creation of Israel, right, BR? Did you know there were Jews thriving all over the Mideast right before there was an Israel? Hmmm, kinda makes you stop and think for a second, doesn't it?

OK, your second's up. Get back onto your zionazimurdercycle and ride.




So the ethnic cleansing of 800,000 Jews is Just and Understandible because Israel exists? In hypewaders mind, everything done by Arabs is understandable under the "circumstances", therefore legitemate. On the other hand, every Jewish action is "unprovoked".


Lets be honest here, every crime by one Party in this conflict has a previous crime by another party to attribute to it. It is not one sided, and Israeli actions were just as much a response to previous Palestinian actions. I could claim, for instance, that:

- Palestinians were evicted due to the Arab intent to destroy the Jewish state, so "legitimate". I just Hypewader'd the crime.

- The Stern gang SHOULD have been created, due to the Arab pogroms of 1920 and 1929 which were totally unprovoked. Ive just "legitimized" the Stern Gang using Hypewader methods.


This can go on and on, so stop whitewashing Arab crimes simply because it doesn't fit your world view.

In 2007 (up to 29 December), Israeli forces killed 373 Palestinians (290 in Gaza , 83 in the West Bank ), among them 53 minors. By comparison, in 2006, 657 Palestinians were killed, including 140 minors: 523 in Gaza , 134 in the West Bank .



Now that's dishonest, Sam. Many of the deaths were a result of Palestinians killing Palestinians, and a Minor can just as well be a 16 year old with an m-16, something very common in Gaza.



In 2007, about 35 percent of those killed were civilians who were not taking part in the hostilities when killed.



This statistic is starting to smell bad, since previous estimates Ive read put the number at over 12:1 militant/civilian ratio. Do you have a source for it?

Surely that had nothing to do with the creation of Israel, right, BR? Did you know there were Jews thriving all over the Mideast right before there was an Israel? Hmmm, kinda makes you stop and think for a second, doesn't it?

So...Israel is created and it's now ok to expel Jews. Because the conflict has no religious basis.

Sure does make you stop and think. Some people even just stop thinking altogether.

Now that's dishonest, Sam. Many of the deaths were a result of Palestinians killing Palestinians, and a Minor can just as well be a 16 year old with an m-16, something very common in Gaza.

No these are exclusively Israeli caused deaths and air raids don't distinguish between infants and teens.




This statistic is starting to smell bad, since previous estimates Ive read put the number at over 12:1 militant/civilian ratio. Do you have a source for it?

B'tselem.

Zionism is the national movement of the Jews, simple as that. Just as Palestinians deserve the right of self determination seperate from other people, so do Jews. You can backtrack and twist it all you want, but I find your selective morality on national rights to be deeply hypocritical.

You can't have a national movement that discriminates against people who were already living there, for not being Jewish. Just like you can't have a national movement that discriminates against people for not being Aryan.

I always wonder, what did the Zionists think when they decided to hold their national movement? What did they think were they going to do with the Palestinians who lived in the place they wanted their Jewish nation?

You can't have a national movement that discriminates against people who were already living there, for not being Jewish. Just like you can't have a national movement that discriminates against people for not being Aryan.

I always wonder, what did the Zionists think when they decided to hold their national movement? What did they think were they going to do with the Palestinians who lived in the place they wanted their Jewish nation?

Yeah some 4 million or so palestinians in their respective territories!..nothing compared to the abuse and treatment carried out on a daily basis in your own country by your own people!!
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html

Spock: "zionazi???"

No, zionazimurdercycle. I was trying to describe a cycle of violence in a word. The more chronological and complete "nazizionqaedamurdercycle" doesn't have the same Harleyesque note for me.

------------------

Surely that had nothing to do with the creation of Israel, right, BR? Did you know there were Jews thriving all over the Mideast right before there was an Israel? Hmmm, kinda makes you stop and think for a second, doesn't it?

GeoffP: "So...Israel is created and it's now ok to expel Jews. Because the conflict has no religious basis."

Not quite: If everyone somehow switched religions, but the same segregationism was forcibly introduced, the results would have been much the same. When the cycle of oppression is finally unwound, Arab Jews, Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, Arab Druze, Arab Armenians, other Arab sects, and lots of multiethnic immigrants will all get back to living together in multi-ethnic societies all over the region. As segregationism is dismantled and abolished, tensions will decrease. You seemingly have considerable trouble stopping your own mental murdercycle.

GeoffP: "Sure does make you stop and think. Some people even just stop thinking altogether."

That's what the cycle of hatred and oppression always causes. Fear and hatred not only kill people- they kill reason and justice, too.

Yep, this what their own people are doing right now...however palestinians seem to be more human to S.A.M than her own kind!...umm interesting!

They are approximately 300 million people who are deemed "untouchable" and comprise the lowest rung of the Hindu caste system. Since the origin of this system 3,000 years ago, the Dalits have lived in bondage to the code of caste. They have been unable to escape their fate and are deprived of even the most basic liberties and privileges, including the freedom to decide where to live, work and worship.

More facts:
http://www.indiatogether.org/society/caste.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/459591.stm

This can go on and on, so stop whitewashing Arab crimes simply because it doesn't fit your world view.

Arab crimes were consequent to the formation of Israel

Here (http://imeu.net/news/article006702.shtml) is an interesting book you may want to read:

Ghada Karmi's latest book "Married to Another Man" opens with the problem European Zionists faced over a century ago when they first mooted the idea of a Jewish State in Palestine. They found then that there was already a well-established Palestinian society existing in the land they wished to claim as their own. Hence the message sent back to Vienna by the two rabbis who made the discovery: "The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man."

It is the essence of "Israel’s dilemma": how to effect the disappearance of the ever-present Palestinians so that a purely Jewish state can exist on Palestinian land? The Zionist program of ethnic cleansing that has been going on since Israel’s creation has not solved the problem. Neither has the living hell of occupation.

Essentially, Dr. Karmi says that Israel should never have been created, but she does not suggest that present-day Israelis must be removed. Instead, she argues that a single state for two peoples offers much more hope for peace than a state based on Jewish exclusivity next to a truncated and utterly unviable proposed Palestinian state under Israel’s vice-like control.

I was surprised to find it echoes many things I have come to realise over the past year. I haven't read the book yet, just reviews, so the details are not known to me. Will get back to you after reading it.

160 million people S.A.M!!..still waiting don't hide from this one!!!

Start your own thread Vega. :)
no need just making a comparism between your version of human suffering!

B'tselem.[/QUOTE]




Link please?

Aren't your own people just as human as the palestinians???

You can't have a national movement that discriminates against people who were already living there, for not being Jewish.



Israeli-Arabs get the same private rights that Jews get. Further, they have broad cultural and ethnic rights, plus positive discrimination in public jobs over Jews. I would say that, as a minority, they have more rights than any minority in an arab world, yet I dont see you de-legitemizing Arab national aspirations, hence your hypocricy.






I always wonder, what did the Zionists think when they decided to hold their national movement? What did they think were they going to do with the Palestinians who lived in the place they wanted their Jewish nation?


You can read their writings for a change. They saw them as future citizens with full rights. By the way, there are 51 Muslim countries, which have non-muslim minorities in them, who are discriminated on a much larger scale, yet not a word is uttered by you against them... Hypocricy again?

Link please?

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

[QUOTE=S.A.M.;1744792]Arab crimes were consequent to the formation of Israel




Typical Sam. The hundreds of atrocities done by arab nations are legitemate... Why? Because Israel exists. Ill teach you something: Everything is a consequence of something, and so was the formation of Israel. Using your rhetoric of "consequence", the expelling of 600,000 Palestinians was a "consequence" of the war they initiated against the Jews, and thus a "Just" action..

You cant have it both ways, sam.

S.A.M is still avoiding the question folks!!,..amazing!!!
She really doesn't have a rational answer for it!!!..haha this is great!!

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp



I cant find the link where it gives specific casualties for the years 2006-2007, and since I've read reports which dont corroberate your casualty figures, they are highly suspect.


As to your book recommendation: Ghada Karmi's works are hardly unbiased, and present the Zionist aspirations as different than they originally were. Early Zionists had no intention of creating a "purely Jewish state", but a Jewish state with minorities having full rights. Further, the author concludes that a 2 state solution is "factually unviable": Such a strong assertion reeks of bias.

Israeli-Arabs get the same private rights that Jews get. Further, they have broad cultural and ethnic rights, plus positive discrimination in public jobs over Jews. I would say that, as a minority, they have more rights than any minority in an arab world, yet I dont see you de-legitemizing Arab national aspirations, hence your hypocricy.



4 million Palestinians are not permitted freedom because of their refusal to recognise a Jewsih state rather than a secular one. Another 5-6 million have no right to return.


You can read their writings for a change. They saw them as future citizens with full rights.



Its after reading their writings that I have reached this conclusion.

By the way, there are 51 Muslim countries, which have non-muslim minorities in them, who are discriminated on a much larger scale, yet not a word is uttered by you against them... Hypocricy again?

How many of them are supported with aid to CONTINUE and ENFORCE this discrimination?

I cant find the link where it gives specific casualties for the years 2006-2007, and since I've read reports which dont corroberate your casualty figures, they are highly suspect.

I gave you the list of causalties. The names and manner of deaths are given in detail.

Which ones do you suspect are not real?

Here:
http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20071231.asp

Early Zionists had no intention of creating a "purely Jewish state", but a Jewish state with minorities having full rights. Further, the author concludes that a 2 state solution is "factually unviable"

I suggest you read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (http://www.counterpunch.org/whitbeck01272007.html)" by Ilan Pappe

I gave you the list of causalties. The names and manner of deaths are given in detail.

Which ones do you suspect are not real?

Here:
http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20071231.asp You are very good in counting the dead in Gaza! but not back home!,,,are the dead there to controversial to talk about???...come on S.A.M you can't run from the truth!!!

4 million Palestinians are not permitted freedom because of their refusal to recognise a Jewsih state rather than a secular one. Another 5-6 million have no right to return.



You are backtracking and escaping your own original claim. You accused Zionists about aspiring to create a state that discriminates against Non-Jews, which is untrue. The Palestinian issue was a result of a long chain of wars, NOT from Zionist policies towards non-Jewish minorities.




Its after reading their writings that I have reached this conclusion.




And Which Zionist thinkers did you read about? Leon Pinsker, Zabotinsky, Hertzel? If you actually took the time to read them, your conclusion would by a little different.




How many of them are supported with aid to CONTINUE and ENFORCE this discrimination?



Most of them, including Egypt, Syria, Iran, Indonesia, Sudan. I dont see you saying a word against them, infact all I see is an attempt to whitewash their crimes, because "Muslim crimes are allways understandible", huh sam?

I gave you the list of causalties. The names and manner of deaths are given in detail.




You finally gave me the link, after 3 posts, and I tank you for it. The problem with non-governmental organizations such as these, is that they get their information from witnesses on the ground, and not from unaligned research centres, therefore their information is much more skewed.





I suggest you read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (http://www.counterpunch.org/whitbeck01272007.html)" by Ilan Pappe[/QUOTE]




I took a course under Ilan Pappe, and know him personally as a friend of my parents. Its a wonderfull system in Israel where people can voice opinions against the state and not get Jailed. Too bad its unheard of in the Arab world, yet I will never hear you complain about it, right? Arabs cant be critisized by you.

Back to Ilan Pappe, he is considerd a bit of a clown on campus. His views have gotten more and more extreme since a doctorate student of his was found plagerizing and using false historical documents when trying to prove that a massacre in Lod took place. He saw it as a personal stain upon himself, and is since earning good money going around the world, smearing the name of the university that ruined his name, and the country that houses it.

You are backtracking and escaping your own original claim. You accused Zionists about aspiring to create a state that discriminates against Non-Jews, which is untrue. The Palestinian issue was a result of a long chain of wars, NOT from Zionist policies towards non-Jewish minorities.

How many Palestinian Jews among the occupied?



And Which Zionist thinkers did you read about? Leon Pinsker, Zabotinsky, Hertzel? If you actually took the time to read them, your conclusion would by a little different.

The ones directly responsible for the formation of the state. Ben Gurion, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founders of Hashomer, the Jewish Legion, Irgun, Haganah.


Most of them, including Egypt, Syria, Iran, Indonesia, Sudan. I dont see you saying a word against them, infact all I see is an attempt to whitewash their crimes, because "Muslim crimes are allways understandible", huh sam?

How many Palestines in these countries? How many with controlled access to food and fuel? How many air raids and snipers? How many segregationary walls? How many checkpoints?

Sorry, I skipped one of your posts, Axes-

Axes: "So the ethnic cleansing of 800,000 Jews is Just and Understandible because Israel exists?"

No. If you were reading with comprehension, you would know that I advocate peaceful de-segregation in the Mideast, and everywhere. I don't advocate the segregation or ethnic cleansing of anyone by anyone.

"In hypewaders mind, everything done by Arabs is understandable under the "circumstances", therefore legitemate."

No, I've been an eyewitness to war in the Mideast. I've seen Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, and Arab Jews do horrific things. You obviously don't understand me.

"On the other hand, every Jewish action is "unprovoked"."

Hatred and oppression are often provoked, but never justified.

"Lets be honest here..."

Excellent!

"every crime by one Party in this conflict has a previous crime by another party to attribute to it."

Yes!

"It is not one sided, and Israeli actions were just as much a response to previous Palestinian actions."

Israelis get to make policies: It's an occupation, and it's apartheid. Palestinians in the ghettos are politically and economically hobbled by Israel.

"I could claim, for instance, that:

- Palestinians were evicted due to the Arab intent to destroy the Jewish state, so "legitimate". I just Hypewader'd the crime."

Where have I attempted to legitimize a crime?

"- The Stern gang SHOULD have been created, due to the Arab pogroms of 1920 and 1929 which were totally unprovoked. Ive just "legitimized" the Stern Gang using Hypewader methods."

No, you've just misrepresented me in an amateurish way, almost in the same breath as saying "Let's be honest".

"This can go on and on, so stop whitewashing Arab crimes simply because it doesn't fit your world view."

What specific "Arab crimes" have I whitewashed? Have you ever seen me employ the phrase "Jewish crime"? Think about that, and try and explain wy not.

You finally gave me the link, after 3 posts, and I tank you for it. The problem with non-governmental organizations such as these, is that they get their information from witnesses on the ground, and not from unaligned research centres, therefore their information is much more skewed.

Hence I gave you the list of names of those who died along with the circumstances. Easy enough to check up for anyone so inclined.


I took a course under Ilan Pappe, and know him personally as a friend of my parents. Its a wonderfull system in Israel where people can voice opinions against the state and not get Jailed. Too bad its unheard of in the Arab world, yet I will never hear you complain about it, right? Arabs cant be critisized by you.

I see no point in debating societies deliberately maintained under kings and dictators.

Back to Ilan Pappe, he is considerd a bit of a clown on campus. His views have gotten more and more extreme since a doctorate student of his was found plagerizing and using false historical documents when trying to prove that a massacre in Lod took place. He saw it as a personal stain upon himself, and is since earning good money going around the world, smearing the name of the university that ruined his name, and the country that houses it

I've read how his student was victimised, so much for freedom of expression

But none of this negates his perusal of the Haganah documents.:)



Especially since it is supported by others, like Ben Morris and Norman Finkelstein (http://www.amazon.com/Image-Reality-Israel-Palestine-Conflict-Revised/dp/1859844421/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202575385&sr=8-2) who have also examined the same documents


“
According to Benny Morris, recently declassified documents in the archives of the IDF reveal that in 1947, Ben-Gurion and other Zionist leaders concluded that a Jewish state could not come into being in the territory assigned to Jews by the UN without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians.... In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.

This resulted in "far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought," including "many cases of rape [that] ended in murder" and executions of Palestinians who were lined up against a wall and shot (in Operation Hiram).
The dismantling of Palestinian society, the destruction of Palestinian towns and villages, and the expulsion of 700,000 Palestinians were not unavoidable consequences of the war declared on the emerging Jewish state by Arab countries. Rather, as Morris repeatedly confirms, it was a deliberate and planned operation intended to "cleanse" (the term used in the declassified documents) those parts of Palestine assigned to the Jews as a necessary pre-condition for the emergence of a Jewish state.

The incredulous interviewer asks Morris, "Ben-Gurion was a 'transferist'?" Morris replies, "Of course." He adds, "Ben-Gurion was right. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here." Indeed, Morris faults Ben-Gurion for limiting the "cleansing" to the 1948 armistice line. "Even though [Ben-Gurion] understood the demographic issue and the need to establish a Jewish state without a large Arab minority, he got cold feet during the war. In the end, he faltered." Morris believes that it is only a question of time before Israel will have to complete the job begun in 1947 by "cleansing" the entire West Bank as well.

The interviewer asked Morris whether he was not justifying war crimes. Morris replied that the necessity and nobility of the Jewish people's return to their patrimony justified what the Jewish forces did. "There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing.... The need to establish this [Jewish] state in this place overcame the injustice that was done to the Palestinians by uprooting them."

”
http://www.vopj.org/issues50.htm

Amazing... S.A.M still running away from the question!!

Typical Sam. The hundreds of atrocities done by arab nations are legitemate... Why? Because